Thread Summary
Welcome to the analytical rollercoaster that is “Image 1”! This thread brings together some of the most meticulous puzzle-solvers in the Secret community to decode the clues within the first painting — widely believed to point to San Francisco.
🖼️ Early Theories and Symbol Spotting
The conversation opens with Egbert laying out themes: June, Pearl, Rose, and an overarching Asian motif, hinting at “Cathay” and a dragon’s pearl. Soon, users begin dissecting everything — from loops in the hair and letters on the cloak, to numerals and upside-down symbols.
- Roman numerals, mirror-writing, backward letters, and even possible map overlays are discussed.
- Users spot the “GH” and debate whether it stands for Ghirardelli, the Great Highway, or both.
- SoonerFan identifies faces in the hills — possibly Native American figures or genie lamps.
- The cloak’s bizarre symbols are intensely debated. Are they part of a cipher or just decorative noise?
🧭 Mapping the Picture to the City
Maltedfalcon emerges as a lead explorer — he claims to have used image manipulation to map parts of the image onto Golden Gate Park. And he’s not alone:
- Others back this theory, noting that reversing (mirroring) the image overlays perfectly with the park’s layout.
- Fox, Egbert, neVar, and others suggest connections to Lincoln Way, Fulton Street, the Japanese Tea Garden, and even a totem pole that has since been removed.
- A “barred window” in the background sparks guesses about Alcatraz, the Cliff House, or even Angel Island.
📝 Verse Matching & Treasure Location Speculation
The group widely agrees that Verse 7 is the best fit, and they dig deep into its wording:
- “The air smells sweet” is linked to Ghirardelli Square.
- “At stone wall’s door” might refer to The Cannery, Cliff House, or park entrances.
- The “giant pole” and “giant step” cause intense debate — could they be flagpoles, planters, or even symbolic references like Apollo 11?
- Abqram and others explore ideas involving JFK Drive, Lincoln Heights, and the Great Highway.
🧠 Collective Recon Missions
- Maltedfalcon goes boots-on-the-ground in SF, with updates from his physical explorations.
- He shares a potential mirrored match between the image and park layout — even linking the “GH” to Great Highway.
- Catherwood, Dan Amrich, and Fox offer to join him, turning the thread into a small-scale expedition log.
- There’s even a “would you let us join?” moment that feels like a buddy movie waiting to happen.
🎭 A Bit of Drama
At one point, Fox accuses Maltedfalcon of greed for not inviting others to dig with him. The community quickly rallies to smooth things over, and apologies are exchanged. Classic internet friction, resolved with a virtual handshake.
📍 Other Curiosities & Micro-Theories
- Abraham Lincoln and JFK profiles may be hidden in the image.
- The barred window remains a mystery — some say it’s symbolic for “The Rock” (Alcatraz), others link it to the Cliff House.
- There’s even speculation that the base of the watch table might match real-world structures in the Japanese Tea Garden.
🧠 Final Vibes:
This thread shows the Secret community at its best — excited, meticulous, and deeply collaborative. It’s a tapestry of historical references, map overlays, cryptic verse analysis, and hands-on adventure. Even after 20 years, Image 1 still has secrets to reveal, and these hunters are determined to uncover them.
Egbert
I
believe this image falls under the following theme:
June (6 o'clock)
Pearl
Rose
Chinese/Asian Theme
"From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon."
Egbert
I believe this image falls under the following theme:
June (6 o'clock)
Pearl
Rose
Chinese/Asian Theme
"From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon."
Egbert
If you take a look at Dan's high res pic
of
this image, you will see in her hair, on the right side, is definitely a clue.
I
thought it was the number 88 at first, but the loops on top are not closed. It doesn't look like a symbol that
I
recognize --- has anyone else seen it? Perhaps it is a modern art sculpture.
On her cloak are the letters "G" and "h" backwards. Then down one side are the roman numerals for 1, 2, 3, then an upside down 5 (or a letter A), and then 10 (or an X), and then symbols
I
don't recognize. On the other side
of
the cloak are the roman numerals for 1, 2, 2, then the yinyang symbol, an upside down 6, an upside down 5 (or a letter A), and more symbols
I
don't recognize.
The dragon's tail ends in a number 6.
I
don't see anything in the cliffs. This is a very tough pic.
Egbert
If you take a look at Dan's high res pic of this image, you will see in her hair, on the right side, is definitely a clue. I thought it was the number 88 at first, but the loops on top are not closed. It doesn't look like a symbol that I recognize --- has anyone else seen it? Perhaps it is a modern art sculpture.
On her cloak are the letters "G" and "h" backwards. Then down one side are the roman numerals for 1, 2, 3, then an upside down 5 (or a letter A), and then 10 (or an X), and then symbols I don't recognize. On the other side of the cloak are the roman numerals for 1, 2, 2, then the yinyang symbol, an upside down 6, an upside down 5 (or a letter A), and more symbols I don't recognize.
The dragon's tail ends in a number 6. I don't see anything in the cliffs. This is a very tough pic.
SoonerFan
I think the blue in the hills on the left hand side represents an object. Turned sideways it kinda looks like a genie's lamp. Well, maybe not but its a peculiar shape and a peculiar place to use blue in the picture so i think it represents something.
Also, on the left hand side of the hills it looks like there is a native american wearing a robe and headress seated and looking toward the right. His head would just below and left of the barred window at the top of the hill.
SoonerFan
I
think the blue in the hills on the left hand side represents an object. Turned sideways it kinda looks like a genie's lamp. Well, maybe not but its a peculiar shape and a peculiar place to use blue in the picture so
i
think it represents something.
Also, on the left hand side
of
the hills it looks like there is a native american wearing a robe and headress seated and looking toward the right. His head would just below and left
of
the barred window at the top
of
the hill.
maltedfalcon
OK, Without a shadow of a doubt this image is San Francisco-
The 38 122 lon/lat numbers were a nice confirmer -
but I did some image manipulation with this one and have confirmed it to be SF.
Then it was trial and error to find the right corresponding verse. and using the internet - solved or confirmed almost all of the verse, it leads you along a certain path starting from a location specified in the picture.
getting more and more specific as you get to the end of the verse.
I figure at this point I can point to within a mile or so of it.
Its funny first your not sure then suddenly you make a connection with a stanza and you just go doh!
I hope to go to SF next week or so If I can't get it to pan out I will post my translation and see what others can do with it.
maltedfalcon
OK, Without a shadow
of
a doubt this image is San Francisco-
The 38 122 lon/lat numbers were a nice confirmer -
but
I
did some image manipulation with this one and have confirmed it to be SF.
Then it was trial and error to find the right corresponding verse. and using the internet - solved or confirmed almost all
of
the verse, it leads you along a certain path starting from a location specified in the picture.
getting more and more specific as you get to the end
of
the verse.
I
figure at this point
I
can point to within a mile or so
of
it.
Its funny first your not sure then suddenly you make a connection with a stanza and you just go doh!
I
hope to go to SF next week or so If
I
can't get it to pan out
I
will post my translation and see what others can do with it.
Egbert
For those
of
you reading this thread and not knowing where the "38" latitude is coming from, as Fox points out in another thread, it's the number
of
boxes on her sleeve.
Good luck maltedfalcon! Let us know what you find.
Egbert
For those of you reading this thread and not knowing where the "38" latitude is coming from, as Fox points out in another thread, it's the number of boxes on her sleeve.
Good luck maltedfalcon! Let us know what you find.
johann
maltedfalcon--
Is there any way you can indicate which verse you are using.
I
am far from San Fran and seeking another treasure and
I
would be greatly assisted by a process
of
elimination.
But, if you do not want to reveal that info yet, then
I
understand. Either way,
I
hope your hunt turns out well.
--Johann
johann
maltedfalcon--
Is there any way you can indicate which verse you are using. I am far from San Fran and seeking another treasure and I would be greatly assisted by a process of elimination.
But, if you do not want to reveal that info yet, then I understand. Either way, I hope your hunt turns out well.
--Johann
Chris
I
'm not sure if this is correct or not, but an old thread on the American Treasure Hunt Society forum mentioned that this pictured referred to New York as the lady's face is that
of
the Statue
of
Liberty.
Chris.
Chris
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but an old thread on the American Treasure Hunt Society forum mentioned that this pictured referred to New York as the lady's face is that of the Statue of Liberty.
Chris.
maltedfalcon
I
didn't mean to infer
I
found something totally hidden from the eye, you can still see it, but it was by using image manipulation that
I
finally clued in that it was there.
I
will share it, but first
I
am going to go to SF this week to check out my clues. and see if
I
can get a little closer.
matt Sparks
maltedfalcon
I didn't mean to infer I found something totally hidden from the eye, you can still see it, but it was by using image manipulation that I finally clued in that it was there.
I will share it, but first I am going to go to SF this week to check out my clues. and see if I can get a little closer.
matt Sparks
maltedfalcon
Unknown:
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but an old thread on the American Treasure Hunt Society forum mentioned that this pictured referred to New York as the lady's face is that of the Statue of Liberty.
Chris.
Actually the statue of Liberty picture is Pix 12
maltedfalcon
Unknown:
I
'm not sure if this is correct or not, but an old thread on the American Treasure Hunt Society forum mentioned that this pictured referred to New York as the lady's face is that
of
the Statue
of
Liberty.
Chris.
Actually the statue
of
Liberty picture is Pix 12
catherwood
Unknown:
I will share it, but first I am going to go to SF this week to check out my clues. and see if I can get a little closer.
This coming weekend? May 15th? Would you consider allowing two of your fellow hunters to tag along? We (Dan Amrich and myself) would not try to steal your glory or your riches. We live in the area and would be tickled to share only in the thrill of the chase. I'll volunteer to hold tools or take pictures. And you never know whether an extra set of eyes and brains could help you.
catherwood
Unknown:
I
will share it, but first
I
am going to go to SF this week to check out my clues. and see if
I
can get a little closer.
This coming weekend? May 15th? Would you consider allowing two
of
your fellow hunters to tag along? We (Dan Amrich and myself) would not try to steal your glory or your riches. We live in the area and would be tickled to share only in the thrill
of
the chase.
I
'll volunteer to hold tools or take pictures. And you never know whether an extra set
of
eyes and brains could help you.
maltedfalcon
Tell you what,
Actually I've been wishy washing back and forth about inviting you guys.
But I want to try it on my own first.
If I can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF I will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Maltedfalcon
Matt Sparks
ps Im up past sacramento
maltedfalcon
Tell you what,
Actually
I
've been wishy washing back and forth about inviting you guys.
But
I
want to try it on my own first.
If
I
can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF
I
will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Maltedfalcon
Matt Sparks
ps Im up past sacramento
fox
wishy washy or not Matt, why not invite them along? Egg found a casque and if you have the right locale but are missing one clue, maybe Cat or Dan may hold the piece
of
the puzzle missing.
If
I
ever am quite convinced
of
a location and there are other hunters in the area....."The more, the merrier!"
Things have sure picked up a lot lately and as casques are found, others will be easier..........yahooo :D THE SECRET is finally revealing its secret...
fox
wishy washy or not Matt, why not invite them along? Egg found a casque and if you have the right locale but are missing one clue, maybe Cat or Dan may hold the piece of the puzzle missing.
If I ever am quite convinced of a location and there are other hunters in the area....."The more, the merrier!"
Things have sure picked up a lot lately and as casques are found, others will be easier..........yahooo :D THE SECRET is finally revealing its secret...
catherwood
Unknown:
Tell you what,...
I
want to try it on my own first.
If
I
can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF
I
will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Of
course, it's your choice, since we still are not sure which verse you're using for your clues.
I
myself have already experienced a real-world mini-treasure hunt, digging up a shard in The Journey hunt for The Stone.
hxxp://www.thestone.com/
"buried clue"
On my little adventure,
i
made the mistake
of
rushing out the door without all my print-outs.
I
assumed
I
could go from memory, but when
I
got there all the trees looked alike.
I
*thought*
i
had the right bend in the path -- and indeed later
i
found out that
i
was right -- but could not determine where the X was to dig. Two hours later, another player came along and HE had printouts! We had never met before, not even online, but we became a team --
I
did have a shovel which he did not think to bring.
I
do think there was an extra benefit to having someone with me to share the thrill. If you don't want help solving this one -- and
i
*totally* understand how that feels -- at least bring along a family member or friend. And beverages, bring beverages.
And a camera. And print-outs
of
*everything* and/or the book itself. And a way to clean-up afterwards.
Have fun, make an adventure
of
it rather than a narrow task, and GOOD LUCK!
catherwood
Unknown:
Tell you what,... I want to try it on my own first.
If I can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF I will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Of course, it's your choice, since we still are not sure which verse you're using for your clues.
I myself have already experienced a real-world mini-treasure hunt, digging up a shard in The Journey hunt for The Stone.
hxxp://www.thestone.com/
"buried clue"
On my little adventure, i made the mistake of rushing out the door without all my print-outs. I assumed I could go from memory, but when I got there all the trees looked alike. I *thought* i had the right bend in the path -- and indeed later i found out that i was right -- but could not determine where the X was to dig. Two hours later, another player came along and HE had printouts! We had never met before, not even online, but we became a team -- I did have a shovel which he did not think to bring.
I do think there was an extra benefit to having someone with me to share the thrill. If you don't want help solving this one -- and i *totally* understand how that feels -- at least bring along a family member or friend. And beverages, bring beverages.
And a camera. And print-outs of *everything* and/or the book itself. And a way to clean-up afterwards.
Have fun, make an adventure of it rather than a narrow task, and GOOD LUCK!
Egbert
Unknown:
Tell you what,
Actually
I
've been wishy washing back and forth about inviting you guys.
But
I
want to try it on my own first.
If
I
can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF
I
will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Maltedfalcon
Matt Sparks
ps Im up past sacramento
So, what happened?
Egbert
Unknown:
Tell you what,
Actually I've been wishy washing back and forth about inviting you guys.
But I want to try it on my own first.
If I can't get it wednesday - How about we pick another day and meet in SF I will go over my clues with you and we will see what we come up with.
Maltedfalcon
Matt Sparks
ps Im up past sacramento
So, what happened?
loph
Hey Egbert,
have you heard back from Priess yet?? Did he congratulate you?? Did he tell you when you'll get the jewel?
Egbert
I spoke with him briefly -- he was running out to a meeting. He congratulated me, and said that he now has to go to the bank to figure out which jewel is mine. I haven't heard from him since, and it's been a couple of days.
Egbert
I
spoke with him briefly -- he was running out to a meeting. He congratulated me, and said that he now has to go to the bank to figure out which jewel is mine.
I
haven't heard from him since, and it's been a couple
of
days.
wilhouse
Do you get to keep the key?
wilhouse
Dan Amrich
I just got back from a business trip...if I can be of assistance, please let me know. I live in Castro Valley, work in Oakland, and can show up in San Francisco on a moment's notice...
Dan Amrich
I
just got back from a business trip...if
I
can be
of
assistance, please let me know.
I
live in Castro Valley, work in Oakland, and can show up in San Francisco on a moment's notice...
catherwood
Unknown:
i believe i have located the clock in this picture. it might be the middle one of the three chronographs / clocks on board the "Eureka" which is a museum ship in San Francisco. i have found pictures of that clock by googling, but sadly all are small or fuzzy so i didnt save the link.
Was this the image you were comparing?
hxxp://sfphototour.tripod.com/images/hyde_guages.jpg
I don't see it as a great match. But the Hyde Street Pier (where that ship is docked) has lamp posts which have a curve which might match the spiral of the flower stem in image 1. (I've misplaced the url to a picture of those.)
catherwood
Unknown:
i
believe
i
have located the clock in this picture. it might be the middle one
of
the three chronographs / clocks on board the "Eureka" which is a museum ship in San Francisco.
i
have found pictures
of
that clock by googling, but sadly all are small or fuzzy so
i
didnt save the link.
Was this the image you were comparing?
hxxp://sfphototour.tripod.com/images/hyde_guages.jpg
I
don't see it as a great match. But the Hyde Street Pier (where that ship is docked) has lamp posts which have a curve which might match the spiral
of
the flower stem in image 1. (
I
've misplaced the url to a picture
of
those.)
johann
There is an upside-down 87 in her hair, the opposite side from the 38 and lower.
Also, could the curved rose stem be a musical notation? Is it called a clef note or something like that? The music readers can clarify this.
--Johann
johann
Rather, I was thinking about a hedgehog in sneakers.
--Johann
johann
Rather,
I
was thinking about a hedgehog in sneakers.
--Johann
shawnvw
Unknown:
For those of you reading this thread and not knowing where the "38" latitude is coming from, as Fox points out in another thread, it's the number of boxes on her sleeve.
That's a stretch, considering how many other numbers -- Roman and otherwise -- are in this picture. However, those suspicious hair curls on the right look like a tilted "38", so I'm cool.
shawnvw
Unknown:
For those
of
you reading this thread and not knowing where the "38" latitude is coming from, as Fox points out in another thread, it's the number
of
boxes on her sleeve.
That's a stretch, considering how many other numbers -- Roman and otherwise -- are in this picture. However, those suspicious hair curls on the right look like a tilted "38", so
I
'm cool.
Dan Amrich
Unknown:
That's a stretch, considering how many other numbers -- Roman and otherwise -- are in this picture. However, those suspicious hair curls on the right look like a tilted "38", so I'm cool.
Well, I have felt the boxes meant something specific, since there are two rows of 9 on one sleeve and two rows of 10 on the other...the discrepancy, I figured, was intentional.
Dan Amrich
Unknown:
That's a stretch, considering how many other numbers -- Roman and otherwise -- are in this picture. However, those suspicious hair curls on the right look like a tilted "38", so
I
'm cool.
Well,
I
have felt the boxes meant something specific, since there are two rows
of
9 on one sleeve and two rows
of
10 on the other...the discrepancy,
I
figured, was intentional.
maltedfalcon
Well on Saturday
I
went to SF and checked out my ideas,
but no luck, So as promised
I
will know let you all know about what
I
've found.
Firstly take the rectangular panel with the dragon all the way up to the neckline then reverse it. (mirror the image)
If you can dig up a map
of
golden Gate Park in San Francisco
you can overlay the rectangle on the map and it fits exactly.
even some
of
the loops
of
the dragon match features in the park but the clincher is - the now forward G and H at the top
of
the image matches up with the street at that end
of
the park which is called the Great Highway.
maltedfalcon
Well on Saturday I went to SF and checked out my ideas,
but no luck, So as promised I will know let you all know about what I've found.
Firstly take the rectangular panel with the dragon all the way up to the neckline then reverse it. (mirror the image)
If you can dig up a map of golden Gate Park in San Francisco
you can overlay the rectangle on the map and it fits exactly.
even some of the loops of the dragon match features in the park but the clincher is - the now forward G and H at the top of the image matches up with the street at that end of the park which is called the Great Highway.
maltedfalcon
next to the lady on the left facing upward is a silouette
of
Abraham Lincoln.
If you mirrored the picture that lincoln is on the same side
of
golden gate park as Lincoln heights.
maltedfalcon
next to the lady on the left facing upward is a silouette of Abraham Lincoln.
If you mirrored the picture that lincoln is on the same side of golden gate park as Lincoln heights.
maltedfalcon
the little lake shaped object next to the lady on the left,
sort
of
matches a lake in Golden Gate park
Now the question is which verse goes with this picture
.....
and the answer is ....
(or at least Im pretty sure)
one that nobody has suggested for san Francisco
Verse 7
go to that section and
I
will explain my thoughts
maltedfalcon
the little lake shaped object next to the lady on the left,
sort of matches a lake in Golden Gate park
Now the question is which verse goes with this picture
.....
and the answer is ....
(or at least Im pretty sure)
one that nobody has suggested for san Francisco
Verse 7
go to that section and I will explain my thoughts
neVar
Some kind
of
GATE thing ?
Weird shape on left hand side - middle:
A Backward "G" and "H" - and symbols (map symbols?):
A "Yin / Yang" symbol under crossed hands (right hand side):
A "38" on the right hand side
of
her hair:
neVar
Some kind of GATE thing ?
Weird shape on left hand side - middle:
A Backward "G" and "H" - and symbols (map symbols?):
A "Yin / Yang" symbol under crossed hands (right hand side):
A "38" on the right hand side of her hair:
fox
nice finds Mr. Falcon. They seem very solid to me. With the asian theme and the small yin-yang symbol, maybe we should be checking around the tea garden.
My question, since you had all of these solid confirmers but not sure on the V, why oh why did you not invite others to help? The only answer I can come up with I hope is not correct.
Looks like another P to focus on gang!
fox
nice finds Mr. Falcon. They seem very solid to me. With the asian theme and the small yin-yang symbol, maybe we should be checking around the tea garden.
My question, since you had all
of
these solid confirmers but not sure on the V, why oh why did you not invite others to help? The only answer
I
can come up with
I
hope is not correct.
Looks like another P to focus on gang!
maltedfalcon
clarify your question for me.
I am absolutely sure on the verse
Ive known it for a while
its verse 7
I said a few weeks ago I would post my ideas after I went and checked them out myself.
what answer do you suspect?
maltedfalcon
clarify your question for me.
I
am absolutely sure on the verse
Ive known it for a while
its verse 7
I
said a few weeks ago
I
would post my ideas after
I
went and checked them out myself.
what answer do you suspect?
fox
Take it easy Mr. Falcon. Ok, you want the answer? GREED. Why not invite others so close by to share in the adventure. Maybe if they had been there, you GUYS could be sharing your discovery with the rest of us right now.
Enough said. Let's ALL get back to finding another casque, shall we?
fox
Take it easy Mr. Falcon. Ok, you want the answer? GREED. Why not invite others so close by to share in the adventure. Maybe if they had been there, you GUYS could be sharing your discovery with the rest
of
us right now.
Enough said. Let's ALL get back to finding another casque, shall we?
maltedfalcon
not a problem
I think If It was greed I wouldn't have posted at all.
I just would have kept my mouth shut and shadowed the board.
Its very close. I seriously think somebody should check out the hospital in Lincoln heigts it was the only large flagpole I could find in the area and from there
GG park, sutro Tower, the U of SF is all viewable
its possible the giant step is a planter box i.e. cleveland
catherwood
I don't think it is rbFox's place to criticize maltedfalcon's decision to work on his own for a bit. The other two of us living in the SF area backed off willingly. If we were concerned about losing out on the treasure, we would have raised a stink ourselves, or traveled there to beat him to it.
I looked at the verse on my own and came up with a different location. I have not yet made the journey into the city, because I don't think it ends in a specific enough location.
Here's some rambling thoughts:
I'll start with the assumption that the "sweet smell" is Ghirardelli chocolate factory -- but it is good to keep in mind that the foundation here is weak, and another verse might still work.
"At stone wall's door" -- possibly The Cannery, it's mostly new brick now, but maybe an original stone doorway or window frame exists, even better if it matches that one on the mountain in the image; this is located next to Ghirardelli Square.
"The air smells sweet" -- this is possibly confirmed by the backwards "Gh-" in the picture, as it is not G.H. as an abbreviation would be.
"Not far away, High posts are three" -- from Ghirardelli square, you can probably see the 3 masts of the Balclutha museum ship in the nearby Maritime Museum; this would also be an indication to walk in the direction of the Aquatic Park there too.
"Education and Justice, For all to see" -- (haven't found a use for this yet);
"Sounds from the sky" -- I was thinking about the Golden Gate bridge, mere blocks away from the Aquatic Park; I haven't spent much time at Fort Mason, but it is practically in the shadow of the bridge, which would be noisy with cars above (hard to confirm from the internet);
"Near ace is high" -- (really no idea what this is, could be a large letter A on a sign or building, which I do see in online photos of Fort Mason);
"Running north" -- which the GG bridge does,
"but first across"
"In jewel's direction" -- not sure if this is speaking of our buried gemstone or a location-specific item;
"Is an object, Of Twain's attention" -- according to one website there is a paddle boat wheel at the entrance to the Maritime Museum; sure Mark Twain liked river boats, but is this a case of me shoehorning the clues to fit a theory?
"Giant pole" -- another boat mast? At this point we would need to be on solid ground near the final dig location, maybe a flagpole at the fort;
"Giant step" -- (again, nothing specific to go on);
"To the place The casque is kept." -- the end.
So, I think we need to look at the Hyde Street Pier, possibly walking along the Aquatic Park, maybe as far as Fort Mason. There are several styles of lamp posts along that route, one of which matches the spiral at the base of the flower stand in our image, and the table is sits on has a base which could also be in the shape of another lamp post.
Memorial Day weekend is coming up, which would give me more free time for explorations.
fox
Unknown:
not a problem
I think If It was greed I wouldn't have posted at all.
I just would have kept my mouth shut and shadowed the board.
sorry about the accusation falcon. it just seemed strange to me at the time....but now I understand. maybe I should be apoligizing to cat as well with her response. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here folks and hope we can shore up another casque together.
thanks for posting the ideas falcon & cat. I still think falcon may be on the right track but who knows, cat has proven me wrong on numerous occasions in the past ;)
fox
getting back to P1. I had always assumed the rocky mounains in the background w/ the barred windows referred to Alcatraz - "the rock"...but, in using falcon's theory of the P turned on it's side which closely resembles GGpark, I noticed another possibility. Keeping the P on it's side, the rocky mountains would be to the west of the park. Appx 30 west of SF (in pretty much a direct straight line) are the Farallon Islands. hxxp://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_nwr/ca_faral.htmnotice the description of the Habitat : "211 acres of rocky islands." One shot of the islands is seen here:
hxxp://www.getty.edu/art/collections/im ... 211201.jpg
there is or was an old lighthouse situated on the island but I have yet to find anything that even closely resembles a barred window/door.
another possibility is more in the line of Cat's theory near Hyde St pier. Directly north of HSp is "the rock" and just past that is Angel Island. There once was a prison on AI: "the island’s west side has an extensive collection of restored barracks from the Civil War, and on the east side are the haunting remains of the prison-like buildings that were once used to hold Chinese immigrants,..." but I have yet to find pics of them. It ties in nicely with the Chinese theme of the P.
fox
We know that the old water tower in Chicago was in P5 and that the upsidedown-bldg outlined in trees in P4 was found in Cleveland...so...has anyone noticed the outline of the table holding the watch and the rose? It looks like it could be of a bldg or something else nearby the site. A very ifffy possibility would be a lantern in the Japanese Tea garden in GGpark. There are numerous lanterns scattered throughout the park of varying sizes and shapes. Here is one example:
hxxp://www.inetours.com/images/Snglimgs ... erFall.jpg
looks to me like it may be something else to be looked into..
maltedfalcon
it doesn't match any of the lanterns in the tea garden
I drove around hoping to find a street clock or bell tower to match but I didn't have any luck.
Highway 1 passes the rose garden in GG park
maltedfalcon
oh thats one other thing I wanted to point out.
pix 1 has a map of GG park as viewed from above
The chicago Pix has a outline of the
fountain
in grant park when viewed from above.
Does the cleveland pix have any possible arial imagery imbeded into it?
maltedfalcon
oh thats one other thing I wanted to point out.
pix 1 has a map of GG park as viewed from above
The chicago Pix has a outline of the fountain in grant park when viewed from above.
Does the cleveland pix have any possible arial imagery imbeded into it?
maltedfalcon
the hyde st area is a possibility no doubt
Gh for Ghirrardelli is possible
but when you line up the mirrored dragon and GGpark
the GH sits right beside the Great Highway
The lincoln outline and the GG park seems to me to point to the area south of the presidio not north.
BTW the cannery is brick not stone.
Still this could all be changed if the silohuette of the bldg/tower is north of the presidio.
fox
Unknown:
next to the lady on the left facing upward is a silouette of Abraham Lincoln.
GGP is also bordered on the south by Lincoln Way. It is bordered on the north by Fulton St. There is what appears to be another possible profile on her other side but whether it is Robert Fulton or not, who knows.
Egbert
Unknown:
oh thats one other thing I wanted to point out.
pix 1 has a map of GG park as viewed from above
The chicago Pix has a outline of the fountain in grant park when viewed from above.
Does the cleveland pix have any possible arial imagery imbeded into it?
Sorry, no aerial imagery I could match. In the lower left of the picture is a bunch of branches which I thought may be a map of the cultural gardens, but try as I might, it just wouldn't match.
You guys are chasing this one down nicely. Here are more pics of Golden Gate Park than anyone could possibly want!
hxxp://my.sfgov.org/photogallery/photogallery.aspx?dept=116&search=indexpage&location=Golden%20Gate%20Park&cS=1
Egbert
Unknown:
oh thats one other thing I wanted to point out.
pix 1 has a map of GG park as viewed from above
The chicago Pix has a outline of the
fountain
in grant park when viewed from above.
Does the cleveland pix have any possible arial imagery imbeded into it?
Sorry, no aerial imagery I could match. In the lower left of the picture is a bunch of branches which I thought may be a map of the cultural gardens, but try as I might, it just wouldn't match.
You guys are chasing this one down nicely. Here are more pics of Golden Gate Park than anyone could possibly want!
hxxp://my.sfgov.org/photogallery/photogallery.aspx?dept=116&search=indexpage&location=Golden%20Gate%20Park&cS=1
wilhouse
could the object of Twain's desire be Fulton - ie., remember that Fulton sailed the first successful riverboat trip in NY.
hxxp://www.ulster.net/~hrmm/steamboats/fulton.html
wilhouse
fox
Nice idea wilhouse. If that were the case, while standing in the park we would be looking north since Fulton Dr borders the park to the north.
fox
oh yeah, WOW :o egg on the pix of GGP.
maltedfalcon
The fulton connection might work, because Fulton also built the New Orleans, the first Mississippi river steamboat.
I am ashamed I shouldve caught that. I just created a series of models of Rober Fulton's steamboats
check out
hxxp://www.delta7studios.com/fulton.htmand
I didn't notice lincoln on the south side of GG park
maltedfalcon
Im looking and looking -but I don't see any map of California in this picture - I was thinking if the current map in the picture thread ran true there would need to be a CA map in pix 1 -
maybe the GGpark map counts.
maltedfalcon
This is the wierd shape over the shoulder of the woman in pix 1
it sort of matches the lower half of north lake...
and this is the image of lincoln in the hills.
johann
Could the profile be JFK?
maltedfalcon
you could be right.
JFK drive runs right through the park and parallels lincoln.
maybe its both...
DocLove
me and my dad have decided that its both, if you put your finger over the chin then it looks like JFK and when you take your finger off then it looks like Lincoln.....so we think its both
maltedfalcon
Well, Image 1 still has some mysteries about it,
the most notable being what does the barred window mean
and then there is the shape under the table. is it a bldg like in the Cleveland picture or is it something else. just kind of eyeballing the shape I see it can either be square or round,
maybe its a combination of both. it could be more square then rectangular but , does anyone familiar with SF recognize this shape? and it doesn't match SF fire boxes or Police boxes
intrigued
Maltedfalcon,
How has the digging gone in GGP?
maltedfalcon
isn't where I thought it was....
I think the key is the object of twains attention, without knowing exactly what that is it just stabbing in the 'park'
"and its a very big park"
Ive tried the obvious directions, but your talking a huge area it you tried all of them.
need to narrow it down a bit before going back - thats why I am re-looking at all the clues especially the ones I'm not sure about.
abqram
Hi folks!
A friend of mine (who chats here often) brought me into the game. Looks like alot of fun. I've been concentrating on image 1 coupled with verse 7. I used to live in SF and much of what was posted was what I was thinking as well.
Let's get down to it: Fulton st equals the object of Twain's attention (steamboat). Picture one reveals Lincon's head, Lincoln Way. These streets are on either side of GG park. The lady's cover (dragon) is of the GG park. The bars in the mountain is Alcatraz prison (the rock). And the air smelling sweet is Ghiradelli Square, corresponding to the G and h on the lady's cover. Also, there are 11 moons in the background, which to me equals Appllo 11 and the USS Hornet, which was used to retrieve the capsule, is docked accross the bay.
Now I believe that the treasure is hidden in Golden Gate Park, below route 1 (near ace is high, running north) which cuts through the park, but above north lake, which is shown in the picture. So we've cut the look in half.
Ok, let's get more specific: I believe that the place to look between these two landmarks is 32nd and 34th street or 43rd street. I say this because the lady in the picture is pointing to either 34 or 43 and if you look at her cover, the roman numerals correspond until you get to 3 and 2.
Could one of those people located in the Bay area look in the park between these streets and see if there is any kind of pole or giant step?
Thanks.
ABQRAM
maltedfalcon
Hi, welcome to the hunt
Looked all around fulton and 34/43
North Lake - found neither a giant pole or a giant step.
Matt Sparks
abqram
Well shoot, that's demoralizing!
I was just talking to my friend and I know there's a totem pole in the park. Is that located in this area? Also, within the Japanese garden there is a buddist temple, could that be construed as a pole?
ABQRAM
maltedfalcon
There was a totem pole
it is no longer there-
and I have dug entirerly around it from 0-5 feet (
a giant step.
I had to get permission from the park service but they were really helpful
The one place I really thought it would be was toward fulton avenue in front of the totem pole base -
unfortunately at some time in the past a larger trencher was used in the area and an irrigation pipe (pvc) so not too many years ago - The trencher wouldve run right through were I thought the casque would be.
I was quite depressed to find this, but you cant imagine the excitement when the shovel blade hit something plastic....
Also very heavy equipment was used in the area in 1986 when they took down the totem pole.
The japanese garden is an avenue worth exploring. haven't gone over there at all.
abqram
Sorry,
I'm reading all the work you did and just catching up. Could the Giant Step be tied in with Apollo 11? (One small step for man, on giant leap for mankind). And the discoverer of the North pole is by the Great Highway. These are markers. The key is the . I don't think its Fulton. I'll throw out something in a bit, after some research.
ABQRAM
maltedfalcon
dug by the admunsen (north Pole) monument-
very hard dirt - nothing to find.
The hornet wasn't in Alameda in 1981/82
Always good to hear new ideas.
just in general - though the picture gets you to an area-
the verse takes you in to the casque
People are making good progress with V7 and New Orleans-
it seems to match there just as well-
so I am trying other verses with SF to see if anything else fits.
Any ideas?
wilhouse
Hey, I really like the giant step being related to Apollo 11, Neil Armstrong.
Is there anything that would relate to Armstrong, or Apollo or 11?
wilhouse
abqram
Ok,
Here's a giant leap, but maybe we were focused in on the main part of GG park! I really think the link is "an object of Twain's attention" I did a search and Mark Twain lived in San Francisco for awhile. He wrote about many things (events), one that made me think was THE CLIFF HOUSE. Well, after much difficulty looking on the web for current pictures, I found this site: hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-ocean-beach.htm (I think that's the address).
Right in front of the main restaurant of the cliff house (there are numerous things there now) IS A TOTEM POLE! And, if you take a step, there is a drop of around 5 feet. I'd say that was a giant step. And here's the key: That whole area is considered GG park now.
Can someone there check to see if there is any validity to my search/reasoning? Thanks.
ABQRAM
maltedfalcon
This is absolutely a possiblility
the arched window in the cliff matches the windows in the tower of the original cliff house.
the cliffs in the picture look just like the ones cliff house is on or seal rock near cliff house.
Unfortunately (don't know when the last time you were at cliff house) but Cliff house is closed and fenced off and undergoing major renovations (including new landscaping)
There was absolutely no way of getting in there.
Mark twain did write about cliff house- (he lived in san francisco for 2 years and was quite prolific. I made a list of the objects of Twains attention. using golden gate park as the center. and it was quite easy to find something Twain wrote about in every single direction. (except due south)
which makes sense because at the time there wasn't really anything south of Golden Gate Park.
maltedfalcon
This is absolutely a possiblility
the arched window in the cliff matches the windows in the tower
of
the original cliff house.
the cliffs in the picture look just like the ones cliff house is on or seal rock near cliff house.
Unfortunately (don't know when the last time you were at cliff house) but Cliff house is closed and fenced off and undergoing major renovations (including new landscaping)
There was absolutely no way
of
getting in there.
Mark twain did write about cliff house- (he lived in san francisco for 2 years and was quite prolific.
I
made a list
of
the objects
of
Twains attention. using golden gate park as the center. and it was quite easy to find something Twain wrote about in every single direction. (except due south)
which makes sense because at the time there wasn't really anything south
of
Golden Gate Park.
Egbert
Wow, those cliffs around Cliff House in the virtual tour look just like the cliffs in the picture. The door in the cliff could be a primitive rebus, meaning "cliff house."
I
think you need to focus on the verse now.
Egbert
Wow, those cliffs around Cliff House in the virtual tour look just like the cliffs in the picture. The door in the cliff could be a primitive rebus, meaning "cliff house." I think you need to focus on the verse now.
wilhouse
OK, I am now convinced that verse 7 has more ties to image 1 than the NO image.
It's at that cliff house Falcon. Figure out how to get it!!
wilhouse
wilhouse
OK,
I
am now convinced that verse 7 has more ties to image 1 than the NO image.
It's at that cliff house Falcon. Figure out how to get it!!
wilhouse
maltedfalcon
Oh I hope not
seriously the ground around it is all gone. they are totally redoing it , and the parking area and the facade and the building was totally gutted.
Sparky
maltedfalcon
Oh
I
hope not
seriously the ground around it is all gone. they are totally redoing it , and the parking area and the facade and the building was totally gutted.
Sparky
wilhouse
perhaps it is near the house and not on the house grounds. what happens when you look near that totem pole in the picture?
wilhouse
maltedfalcon
Thats what I meant its gone,
The totem pole is gone, the sidewalk is gone, the camera obscura building is gone, the mechanical museum is gone...
its a large work area with bulldozers cranes and
Its totally being remodeled. you cant get there now.
maltedfalcon
Thats what
I
meant its gone,
The totem pole is gone, the sidewalk is gone, the camera obscura building is gone, the mechanical museum is gone...
its a large work area with bulldozers cranes and
Its totally being remodeled. you cant get there now.
wilhouse
That's what happened to me in Hermann Park. It's a frustrating puzzle when the pieces no longer exist.
Have you tried talking with the foreman about out thoughts on the treasure? Perhaps someone found something, or maybe they'll let you poke around sometimes.
I wish Preiss would let up and let us know when we've submitted a correct solution, but he's just not that interested.
wilhouse
wilhouse
That's what happened to me in Hermann Park. It's a frustrating puzzle when the pieces no longer exist.
Have you tried talking with the foreman about out thoughts on the treasure? Perhaps someone found something, or maybe they'll let you poke around sometimes.
I
wish Preiss would let up and let us know when we've submitted a correct solution, but he's just not that interested.
wilhouse
fox
Glad you could finally join us on these boards Abqram.
Let me tell you, after day after day, week after week, month after(....yeah, you get the picture) of trying to get my wife interested or involved in my crazy escapades to no avail...it sure is nice to have a buddy of mine hooked.
Welcome again...and feel free to spill you guts (no matter how crazy the ideas seem) as falcon pointed out - it's good to have new ideas circulating around here.
fox
Glad you could finally join us on these boards Abqram.
Let me tell you, after day after day, week after week, month after(....yeah, you get the picture)
of
trying to get my wife interested or involved in my crazy escapades to no avail...it sure is nice to have a buddy
of
mine hooked.
Welcome again...and feel free to spill you guts (no matter how crazy the ideas seem) as falcon pointed out - it's good to have new ideas circulating around here.
abqram
Well Mr. Fox,
I must admit, it's pretty entertaining. And I love doing research. Until my cliff house theory is disproven, I may move onto another picture/verse. I find picture 6 intriguing. I may start looking at that one.
ABQRAM
abqram
Well Mr. Fox,
I
must admit, it's pretty entertaining. And
I
love doing research. Until my cliff house theory is disproven,
I
may move onto another picture/verse.
I
find picture 6 intriguing.
I
may start looking at that one.
ABQRAM
fox
P6 huh? Welcome to the Sunshine State 8)
fox
Hey Falcon....are you still looking into the GGP as a possible location? If so, thought you might find this interesting.....found it in our local paper today:
"{DESIGN CHOSEN FOR AIDS MEMORIAL
San Francisco -- A design by two New York architects was declared the winner Wednesday in a competition to create a centerpiece for a 7-acre garden in Golden Gate Park, the only federally recognized AIDS memorial in the country. "Living Memorial," by Janette Kim and Chloe Town, features a stand
of
black carbon fiber trees, a charred wood deck and a burned, barklike walkway that in time will sprout greenery -- elements borrowed from a fire-scarred forest to evoke a sense
of
loss and renewal. "While the design is at first frightening, it is also rich with the eventual triumph
of
life," said Ken Ruebush, who co-chaired the international contest that drew 201 submissions from 24 countries.}"
to make a long story short.....If indeed you are correct about GGP being a casque site, than wouldnt a 7-acre garden possibly cover the burial site? Wonder if we should talk to BP before the work begins? Just a thought......
fox
Hey Falcon....are you still looking into the GGP as a possible location? If so, thought you might find this interesting.....found it in our local paper today:
"{DESIGN CHOSEN FOR AIDS MEMORIAL
San Francisco -- A design by two New York architects was declared the winner Wednesday in a competition to create a centerpiece for a 7-acre garden in Golden Gate Park, the only federally recognized AIDS memorial in the country. "Living Memorial," by Janette Kim and Chloe Town, features a stand of black carbon fiber trees, a charred wood deck and a burned, barklike walkway that in time will sprout greenery -- elements borrowed from a fire-scarred forest to evoke a sense of loss and renewal. "While the design is at first frightening, it is also rich with the eventual triumph of life," said Ken Ruebush, who co-chaired the international contest that drew 201 submissions from 24 countries.}"
to make a long story short.....If indeed you are correct about GGP being a casque site, than wouldnt a 7-acre garden possibly cover the burial site? Wonder if we should talk to BP before the work begins? Just a thought......
maltedfalcon
well the odds that out
of
1017 acres the 7 that they are going to use for the garden
are about, well.... 145.28571428571428571428571428571 to 1
Anyway
I
have studied, read mapped and queriied and plotted, and Im pretty sure
I
've got it
I
just have to get free
of
work and go dig.
maybe in a week or two...
But with odds like the above
I
better get going.
maltedfalcon
well the odds that out of 1017 acres the 7 that they are going to use for the garden
are about, well.... 145.28571428571428571428571428571 to 1
Anyway I have studied, read mapped and queriied and plotted, and Im pretty sure I've got it
I just have to get free of work and go dig.
maybe in a week or two...
But with odds like the above I better get going.
fox
lol....love how you put all
of
the extra numbers after the decimal point making the number look A LOT larger. Looking at 145 to 1 doesnt seem near as large....yet still quite good odds on our part. But, with our luck....having located a possible/probable spot only to have it covered by an AIDS garden would be quite a shame.
Good luck on your upcoming dig Falcon....keep us posted and take lots
of
pics
fox
lol....love how you put all of the extra numbers after the decimal point making the number look A LOT larger. Looking at 145 to 1 doesnt seem near as large....yet still quite good odds on our part. But, with our luck....having located a possible/probable spot only to have it covered by an AIDS garden would be quite a shame.
Good luck on your upcoming dig Falcon....keep us posted and take lots of pics
maltedfalcon
Fear not,
the Aids Memorial Grove already exists,
they are tallking about adding stuff to the already exisiting memorial
not enlarging it, but building inside.
and its at the other end of the park from where I will be digging.
maltedfalcon
Fear not,
the Aids Memorial Grove already exists,
they are tallking about adding stuff to the already exisiting memorial
not enlarging it, but building inside.
and its at the other end
of
the park from where
I
will be digging.
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
Fear not,
the Aids Memorial Grove already exists,
they are tallking about adding stuff to the already exisiting memorial
not enlarging it, but building inside.
maltedfalcon wrote::
and its at the other end
of
the park from where
I
will be digging.
great news!
and also great news! will say a prayer to the buried casque gods for you falcon..........Good Luck!
fox
maltedfalcon wrote::
Fear not,
the Aids Memorial Grove already exists,
they are tallking about adding stuff to the already exisiting memorial
not enlarging it, but building inside.
maltedfalcon wrote::
and its at the other end of the park from where I will be digging.
great news!
and also great news! will say a prayer to the buried casque gods for you falcon..........Good Luck!
Chasin A Me
good luck!!! I hope you find it!!!
Chasin A Me
good luck!!!
I
hope you find it!!!
Aces88
I'm very new to this hunt. I was encouraged to learn that one of jewels might be hidden in San Francisco, since I go there a few days a week for work. I grabbed the hi-res image files and started perusing Image 1.
The first thing that struck me was the reversed G-h, which looks just like the first two letters of the Ghirardelli logo. It's the same typestyle and everything.
It also makes sense for it to be reversed. If you stand behind Ghirardelli Square looking toward the Bay, the logo appears backwards just like that.
In the image the pearl is right above the G-h. Perhaps that means the jewel is hidden just beyond the front of Ghirardelli Square, which would put it in Aquatic Park.
Line two of Verse 7 says "the air is sweet" which is a great tie-in with Ghirardelli Square. You can smell chocolate being made from quite a few spots there. In fact many of the lines in Verse 7 fit well with an Aquatic park location.
The more I read that verse and looked at the image and pegged each item, the more conviced I became. I thought myself pretty clever at that point. Then I finally read the full threads about Image 1 and Verse 7 and saw that catherwood and others went down this road long before I did!
In any case I was still curious enough to do a drive-by of the Ghirardelli/Aquatic Park area this morning on my way to work. I got a little more info, but not enough to really confirm or deny this as the jewel's location.
In any case, here's my analysis of the elements of Image 1 with Aquatic Park in mind:
All in favor:
122, 123, 38
- SF is between 122 and 123 latitude, and at 37.5 longitude
Reversed G-h
- Looks like the Ghirardelli sign, seen from the back.
The curled rose stem
- Similar to the curve of the Municipal Pier at Aquatic Park. (The final curve of the dragon's tail is also similar, BTW). Here's a map:
hxxp://data2.itc.nps.gov/parks/safr/ppM ... mapm%2Ejpg
Circular tabletop
- This reminded me of a cable car turnaround circle, of which there is one in Aquatic Park, at the end of Hyde Street. This is the main reason I went over there to have a look. Yup, it has a wide metal ring like the tabletop.
Maybe:
Window in the cliffs
- There are many arched windows at and around Ghirardelli Square. They are either done in brick or cement though. If you look out from Ghirardelli "in jewel's direction" you see Alcatraz -- could the barred window just be symbolic of that?
The cliffs themselves
- There aren't any cliffs like this near Aquatic Park. Alcatraz has a few rocky cliffs but they aren't very tall. The cliffs around Cliff House or the Marin Headlands are better matches.
Points against:
Lamppost under table
- Aquatic Park has some pretty fancy lampposts, but they are not an exact macth
The Dragon
- Seems like a definite Chinatown reference, but Chinatown is at least a dozen blocks away from Ghirardelli. Could the dragon just be there to help make the China/Pearl/SF connection?
Other symbols on the robe
- The 1-2-2 and 1-2-3 symbols make sense as latitude numbers. The symbols aren't just there for show are they? No one has offered any ideas about them yet, and I'm stumped too.
So the visual evidence isn't 100% convincing, but there are some strong elements. Is it as strong as the GG Park connection? maltedfalcon has found other bits of visual evidence --the lake outline, the Lincoln profile -- that seem to favor GG Park instead.
However when you bring Verse 7 into it, I think the Aquatic Park connection gets stronger. I'll post that analysis over on the Verse 7 thread.
Thanks,
Rob
Aces88
I
'm very new to this hunt.
I
was encouraged to learn that one
of
jewels might be hidden in San Francisco, since
I
go there a few days a week for work.
I
grabbed the hi-res image files and started perusing Image 1.
The first thing that struck me was the reversed G-h, which looks just like the first two letters
of
the Ghirardelli logo. It's the same typestyle and everything.
It also makes sense for it to be reversed. If you stand behind Ghirardelli Square looking toward the Bay, the logo appears backwards just like that.
In the image the pearl is right above the G-h. Perhaps that means the jewel is hidden just beyond the front
of
Ghirardelli Square, which would put it in Aquatic Park.
Line two
of
Verse 7 says "the air is sweet" which is a great tie-in with Ghirardelli Square. You can smell chocolate being made from quite a few spots there. In fact many
of
the lines in Verse 7 fit well with an Aquatic park location.
The more
I
read that verse and looked at the image and pegged each item, the more conviced
I
became.
I
thought myself pretty clever at that point. Then
I
finally read the full threads about Image 1 and Verse 7 and saw that catherwood and others went down this road long before
I
did!
In any case
I
was still curious enough to do a drive-by
of
the Ghirardelli/Aquatic Park area this morning on my way to work.
I
got a little more info, but not enough to really confirm or deny this as the jewel's location.
In any case, here's my analysis
of
the elements
of
Image 1 with Aquatic Park in mind:
All in favor:
122, 123, 38
- SF is between 122 and 123 latitude, and at 37.5 longitude
Reversed G-h
- Looks like the Ghirardelli sign, seen from the back.
The curled rose stem
- Similar to the curve
of
the Municipal Pier at Aquatic Park. (The final curve
of
the dragon's tail is also similar, BTW). Here's a map:
hxxp://data2.itc.nps.gov/parks/safr/ppM ... mapm%2Ejpg
Circular tabletop
- This reminded me
of
a cable car turnaround circle,
of
which there is one in Aquatic Park, at the end
of
Hyde Street. This is the main reason
I
went over there to have a look. Yup, it has a wide metal ring like the tabletop.
Maybe:
Window in the cliffs
- There are many arched windows at and around Ghirardelli Square. They are either done in brick or cement though. If you look out from Ghirardelli "in jewel's direction" you see Alcatraz -- could the barred window just be symbolic
of
that?
The cliffs themselves
- There aren't any cliffs like this near Aquatic Park. Alcatraz has a few rocky cliffs but they aren't very tall. The cliffs around Cliff House or the Marin Headlands are better matches.
Points against:
Lamppost under table
- Aquatic Park has some pretty fancy lampposts, but they are not an exact macth
The Dragon
- Seems like a definite Chinatown reference, but Chinatown is at least a dozen blocks away from Ghirardelli. Could the dragon just be there to help make the China/Pearl/SF connection?
Other symbols on the robe
- The 1-2-2 and 1-2-3 symbols make sense as latitude numbers. The symbols aren't just there for show are they? No one has offered any ideas about them yet, and
I
'm stumped too.
So the visual evidence isn't 100% convincing, but there are some strong elements. Is it as strong as the GG Park connection? maltedfalcon has found other bits
of
visual evidence --the lake outline, the Lincoln profile -- that seem to favor GG Park instead.
However when you bring Verse 7 into it,
I
think the Aquatic Park connection gets stronger.
I
'll post that analysis over on the Verse 7 thread.
Thanks,
Rob
Aces88
Here's an additional thought about Ghirardelli:
The style of the G-h symbol is so close to the Ghirardelli sign style that if it does not represent Ghirardelli then it is either:
1) a deliberate red herring, or
2) a general confirmer meant to indicate the city of San Francisco.
If the G-h is meant to indicate something else, like Great Highway as maltedfalcon suggested, then the typestyle and the lowercase h would be intentional misdirection by the artist. Have there been deliberate red herrings like that in either of the two solved puzzles? I don't think so.
As a general confirmer it is pretty weak, I think, since Ghirardelli isn't a major landmark on the scale of, say, the Golden Gate Bridge. Ghirardelli also provides the strongest tie-in with Verse 7 - "the air smells sweet" - which makes it a pivotal clue.
This all tells me that the G-h is likely to mean that the jewel is hidden near Ghirardelli Square (as opposed to Golden Gate Park, which is pretty far away).
By the way, here's a link to an overview illustration of Ghirardelli Square, showing the big sign:
hxxp://www.ghirardellisq.com/history/walking.html
Any other thoughts on this?
Aces88
Here's an additional thought about Ghirardelli:
The style
of
the G-h symbol is so close to the Ghirardelli sign style that if it does not represent Ghirardelli then it is either:
1) a deliberate red herring, or
2) a general confirmer meant to indicate the city
of
San Francisco.
If the G-h is meant to indicate something else, like Great Highway as maltedfalcon suggested, then the typestyle and the lowercase h would be intentional misdirection by the artist. Have there been deliberate red herrings like that in either
of
the two solved puzzles?
I
don't think so.
As a general confirmer it is pretty weak,
I
think, since Ghirardelli isn't a major landmark on the scale
of
, say, the Golden Gate Bridge. Ghirardelli also provides the strongest tie-in with Verse 7 - "the air smells sweet" - which makes it a pivotal clue.
This all tells me that the G-h is likely to mean that the jewel is hidden near Ghirardelli Square (as opposed to Golden Gate Park, which is pretty far away).
By the way, here's a link to an overview illustration
of
Ghirardelli Square, showing the big sign:
hxxp://www.ghirardellisq.com/history/walking.html
Any other thoughts on this?
fox
arrggh...Just what we need more very convincing ideas for SF leading to a completley different location. I really do like the idea of the Gh being from the sign as viewed from the back.
Thanks for the great ideas 88 and welcome to the hunt!
fox
arrggh...Just what we need more very convincing ideas for SF leading to a completley different location.
I
really do like the idea
of
the Gh being from the sign as viewed from the back.
Thanks for the great ideas 88 and welcome to the hunt!
catherwood
thanks for the vote
of
confidence. My buddy and
I
walked around Gh Square and the Aquatic park/Marina last fall, mostly going on the assumption that the "high posts are three" was for the 3 masts
of
the Balcutha ship. On the dock nearby, we thought we'd find a paddle wheel which we could tie to Mark Twain, but
i
remember being disappointed.
I
think the biggest boost would be to find where Justice and Education are for all to see (if
i
remember that correctly). The Balcutha is a teaching ship, but maybe
I
've overlooked some research which could be tied to a particular judge or justice (
of
the peace?).
And just when someone else had me convinced by the totem pole outside the Cliff House! This could be fun, if it weren't so frustrating. Welcome aboard!
catherwood
thanks for the vote of confidence. My buddy and I walked around Gh Square and the Aquatic park/Marina last fall, mostly going on the assumption that the "high posts are three" was for the 3 masts of the Balcutha ship. On the dock nearby, we thought we'd find a paddle wheel which we could tie to Mark Twain, but i remember being disappointed. I think the biggest boost would be to find where Justice and Education are for all to see (if i remember that correctly). The Balcutha is a teaching ship, but maybe I've overlooked some research which could be tied to a particular judge or justice (of the peace?).
And just when someone else had me convinced by the totem pole outside the Cliff House! This could be fun, if it weren't so frustrating. Welcome aboard!
skoldpadda
Wow, you guys are awesome... just read the thread for image 1 after
I
studied it and had some ideas jotted. Most
of
it has been discussed (Alcatraz, Ghirardelli Square).
A bit has not.
I
didn't see anything on the other symbols on the bottom
of
the robe. Lower left appears to be three circles (one on top
of
two) and two triangles (equilateral with 2 sides adjacent to one another). Is the bottom image 2 semi-circles next to each other? On the right, as Egbert mentioned, "A" or possibly upside down "V". ?Below that a 'bell' like image (imagine a triangular Liberty Bell). Lower right corner, could this be a Chinese character? If so, which is it and what does it mean? Could provide a clue for us.
I
know Lombard street is not REALLY close to Ghirardelli (having participated in a number
of
"The Great San Francisco Treasure Hunt"s in my day), but the image
of
the dragon made me think
of
it (all the curves).
Also, the arms folded on one another... a simple indication for framing the 122/123?
Very rich imagery, maybe there are some more clues we've missed -- anything on the distinct outline
of
the blue area adjacent to the cliffs on the right?
I
liked the idea for the one on the left resembling the pond in GGP.
I
plan to do some internet searching over the next week to get more ideas, but wanted to throw those out there for you all.
(a bit off topic, but "at stone wall's door" from verse 7... could this refer to Stonewall Jackson?...
I
recall Jackson street in Pacific Heights neighborhood overlooks this general area)... ok, off to read the verse 7 thread... probably already been mentioned
skoldpadda
Wow, you guys are awesome... just read the thread for image 1 after I studied it and had some ideas jotted. Most of it has been discussed (Alcatraz, Ghirardelli Square).
A bit has not. I didn't see anything on the other symbols on the bottom of the robe. Lower left appears to be three circles (one on top of two) and two triangles (equilateral with 2 sides adjacent to one another). Is the bottom image 2 semi-circles next to each other? On the right, as Egbert mentioned, "A" or possibly upside down "V". ?Below that a 'bell' like image (imagine a triangular Liberty Bell). Lower right corner, could this be a Chinese character? If so, which is it and what does it mean? Could provide a clue for us.
I know Lombard street is not REALLY close to Ghirardelli (having participated in a number of "The Great San Francisco Treasure Hunt"s in my day), but the image of the dragon made me think of it (all the curves).
Also, the arms folded on one another... a simple indication for framing the 122/123?
Very rich imagery, maybe there are some more clues we've missed -- anything on the distinct outline of the blue area adjacent to the cliffs on the right? I liked the idea for the one on the left resembling the pond in GGP.
I plan to do some internet searching over the next week to get more ideas, but wanted to throw those out there for you all.
(a bit off topic, but "at stone wall's door" from verse 7... could this refer to Stonewall Jackson?... I recall Jackson street in Pacific Heights neighborhood overlooks this general area)... ok, off to read the verse 7 thread... probably already been mentioned
johann
The bottom symbol is two semi-circles, and the bottom right symbol looks to be a cross (crucifix-shape) inside a rectangle.
Aces88
catherwood,
The ship Eureka is a paddle-wheeler, but the paddle wheel is in the stern, away from the pier, so it's hard to see.
I think Alcatraz works well as "Justice." Education still eludes me though (in terms of this verse I mean).
skoldpadda,
Yes I wondered if the dragon could mean Lombard street too. It's about 5 blocks away, though, and not directly behind Ghirardelli. I also thought the dragon could refer to Chinatown, but that's about a dozen blocks away.
I stole a page from maltedfalcon's book and tried putting the image on top of a city map, with the G-h placed where the Ghirardelli sign belongs. It fits nicely, but it's not really conclusive. Here's a link:
hxxp://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oHFgQjKBcF ... verlay.gif
You can see the winding part of Lombard street off to the right.
Aces88
catherwood,
The ship Eureka is a paddle-wheeler, but the paddle wheel is in the stern, away from the pier, so it's hard to see.
I
think Alcatraz works well as "Justice." Education still eludes me though (in terms
of
this verse
I
mean).
skoldpadda,
Yes
I
wondered if the dragon could mean Lombard street too. It's about 5 blocks away, though, and not directly behind Ghirardelli.
I
also thought the dragon could refer to Chinatown, but that's about a dozen blocks away.
I
stole a page from maltedfalcon's book and tried putting the image on top
of
a city map, with the G-h placed where the Ghirardelli sign belongs. It fits nicely, but it's not really conclusive. Here's a link:
hxxp://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oHFgQjKBcF ... verlay.gif
You can see the winding part
of
Lombard street off to the right.
Aces88
I
also agree that the symbols in this image need more study.
I
've tried looking in a couple
of
symbol dictionaries, but even though they are simple symbols only some
of
them are listed.
Here are some
I
've found, but
I
don't think all the definitions really fit. You have to bear with me too, since even in the great hi-res scans not all
of
the symbols are clear.
30:34 · This ideogram is found both in earlier and present-day systems. In the earliest system
of
Chinese writing a similar symbol meant village (a pictorial sign for the central field and well).
In alchemy [it] meant urine. As a meteorological sign [it] signifies that the ground is wet ( means flooded ground).
In the French and US system
of
hobo signs [it] and similar structures are signs for danger.
26:8 · The circle with a point at its center is ancient. This ideogram seems to have been used in every cultural sphere on earth. Wherever it appears, it has the same meaning:
the sun
or something that is closely associated with the sun, such as hydrogen (in Dalton's nineteenth-century chemistry). It can mean sunshine in a meteorological system, gold in alchemy, plant with a one year life cycle (one sun cycle) in botany, driving wheel on locomotives as a railway ideogram, and here live bad-tempered people in both the British and the US systems
of
hobo signs. On nautical charts [it] is used for chimneys, towers, and high structures in general, visible from the sea.
24:21 · A graph from the US system
of
hobo signs meaning
here lives a man with a bad temper
.
30:28 · As a meteorological sign 30:28 signifies
ice granules, hail, frozen raindrops.
28:11 · According to old German literature a time sign for
autumn
.
30:3 · The circle divided by a vertical line is an ancient sign
of
the alphabets used in antiquity in the Near East. The alchemists used it to signify nitrogen, or saltpeter. Among the Hittites [it was] closely associated with the idea
of
lightning.
In his nineteenth-century system for the chemical elements John Dalton used [it] for nitrogen.
Some meteorlogical sign systems used [it] for solar halo.
20:21 · One sign for pebbles (or rock-crystal) in alchemy. (we'd have to assume the symbol in the image is upside-down for this one to work)
Aces88
I also agree that the symbols in this image need more study.
I've tried looking in a couple of symbol dictionaries, but even though they are simple symbols only some of them are listed.
Here are some I've found, but I don't think all the definitions really fit. You have to bear with me too, since even in the great hi-res scans not all of the symbols are clear.
30:34 · This ideogram is found both in earlier and present-day systems. In the earliest system of Chinese writing a similar symbol meant village (a pictorial sign for the central field and well).
In alchemy [it] meant urine. As a meteorological sign [it] signifies that the ground is wet ( means flooded ground).
In the French and US system of hobo signs [it] and similar structures are signs for danger.
26:8 · The circle with a point at its center is ancient. This ideogram seems to have been used in every cultural sphere on earth. Wherever it appears, it has the same meaning:
the sun
or something that is closely associated with the sun, such as hydrogen (in Dalton's nineteenth-century chemistry). It can mean sunshine in a meteorological system, gold in alchemy, plant with a one year life cycle (one sun cycle) in botany, driving wheel on locomotives as a railway ideogram, and here live bad-tempered people in both the British and the US systems of hobo signs. On nautical charts [it] is used for chimneys, towers, and high structures in general, visible from the sea.
24:21 · A graph from the US system of hobo signs meaning
here lives a man with a bad temper
.
30:28 · As a meteorological sign 30:28 signifies
ice granules, hail, frozen raindrops.
28:11 · According to old German literature a time sign for
autumn
.
30:3 · The circle divided by a vertical line is an ancient sign of the alphabets used in antiquity in the Near East. The alchemists used it to signify nitrogen, or saltpeter. Among the Hittites [it was] closely associated with the idea of lightning.
In his nineteenth-century system for the chemical elements John Dalton used [it] for nitrogen.
Some meteorlogical sign systems used [it] for solar halo.
20:21 · One sign for pebbles (or rock-crystal) in alchemy. (we'd have to assume the symbol in the image is upside-down for this one to work)
fox
I'm really intrigued with the Chinese meanings of these symbols seeing that the whole feel of the P is oriental the the symbols are actually on the oriental robe.....however...the symbols are definitely Mandarin or any other oriental script. hmmm hmmm indeed.
fox
I
'm really intrigued with the Chinese meanings
of
these symbols seeing that the whole feel
of
the P is oriental the the symbols are actually on the oriental robe.....however...the symbols are definitely Mandarin or any other oriental script. hmmm hmmm indeed.
fox
Doing a little more basic research on the area around Gh square......Alcatraz "the rock" is definitely in a straight shot from Gh sq as P1 shows but it looks like there aren't that many parks in the vacinity for casque burial ie...Grant Park and Greek Gardens... unless we consider the area called Fort Mason. Is that somewhere where anyone could go and dig?
While looking at the satellite of the area at maps.google.com I noticed 2 large curved buildings 1 block down N Point St...what is this? Just curious.
fox
Doing a little more basic research on the area around Gh square......Alcatraz "the rock" is definitely in a straight shot from Gh sq as P1 shows but it looks like there aren't that many parks in the vacinity for casque burial ie...Grant Park and Greek Gardens... unless we consider the area called Fort Mason. Is that somewhere where anyone could go and dig?
While looking at the satellite
of
the area at maps.google.com
I
noticed 2 large curved buildings 1 block down N Point St...what is this? Just curious.
abqram
Hey Fox (and all);
Sorry I haven't posted in awhile, just too busy. My brother is going to SF next week. Any suggestions on where to snoop around? I'm gonna have him check my original thought--that it's at the cliff house by the totem pole--see if he can get to it yet...
ABQRAM
abqram
Hey Fox (and all);
Sorry
I
haven't posted in awhile, just too busy. My brother is going to SF next week. Any suggestions on where to snoop around?
I
'm gonna have him check my original thought--that it's at the cliff house by the totem pole--see if he can get to it yet...
ABQRAM
fox
abq...tell him to take his backhoe and dig up the entire Golden Gate Park. That way, we can either confirm it as a site by locating the casque or mark it off
of
our list
of
possible SF locations....
Really,
I
would have him look around the Gh square....see if there are any parks or nice little grassy areas nearby.
I
really do like the Gh on her robe = Gh sq.
fox
abq...tell him to take his backhoe and dig up the entire Golden Gate Park. That way, we can either confirm it as a site by locating the casque or mark it off of our list of possible SF locations....
Really, I would have him look around the Gh square....see if there are any parks or nice little grassy areas nearby. I really do like the Gh on her robe = Gh sq.
papernapkin
fox wrote::
While looking at the satellite of the area at maps.google.com I noticed 2 large curved buildings 1 block down N Point St...what is this? Just curious.
I believe they are 2 expensive apartment buildings but I can't remember the name of that complex. that's funny that you would mention them, because the last time my friend and i were down there, we were talking about them. we were wondering why someone would pay so much to live so far from where they work. i guess it's all about the view.
papernapkin
fox wrote::
While looking at the satellite
of
the area at maps.google.com
I
noticed 2 large curved buildings 1 block down N Point St...what is this? Just curious.
I
believe they are 2 expensive apartment buildings but
I
can't remember the name
of
that complex. that's funny that you would mention them, because the last time my friend and
i
were down there, we were talking about them. we were wondering why someone would pay so much to live so far from where they work.
i
guess it's all about the view.
forest_blight
Sorry
I
don't have much to offer on this one, but
I
do have a few unconnected thoughts maybe worth sharing.
First,
I
think it's pretty well established that this
has
to be San Francisco. The following latitudes and longitudes can be found in various places in the image:
37 - hair (left)
38 - hair (right) and sleeve
122 - clothing (right)
123 - clothing (left)
SF is located at 37'45" N 122'27" W.
There is what appears to be an octopus head, upside-down, just below her wrists and between the dragon's wings.
We never did find out what happened re maltedfalcon's March 28 dig announcement. Falcon?
Aces88 is right - The "Gh" look exactly like the ones in the Image 1.
I
noticed that there is a clock tower in the SE corner
of
Ghirardelli Square (b. 1911), but the clock face bears no resemblance to the clock in the picture.
(Going to the Ghirardelli website made me really want chocolate, but all
I
have in my house are miniature Reese's cups - a far cry,
I
think...)
All 12 pictures have a birth flower in them. More often than not,
I
'm guessing, this has no significance. However, the Cleveland picture's daffodil was used as part
of
the "Bellflower" rebus. The rose in Pic 1 looks suspiciously like part
of
a rebus to me, especially with that weird stem. What could it mean?
The Golden Gate Park, Ghirardelli Square, and Cliff House solutions all match some
of
the clues, but not all
of
the clues. For example, if the casque really is buried in Ghirardelli Square (as the Gh would suggest), why would an abstract representation
of
Golden Gate Park be necessary? And vice versa. None
of
the suggested solutions accounts for the barred window.
Several agreed that the blue shape on the left looks like North Lake in Golden Gate Park.
I
found some map images
of
North Lake that don't look anything like it:
And finally, because a picture is worth 1000 words...
forest_blight
Sorry I don't have much to offer on this one, but I do have a few unconnected thoughts maybe worth sharing.
First, I think it's pretty well established that this
has
to be San Francisco. The following latitudes and longitudes can be found in various places in the image:
37 - hair (left)
38 - hair (right) and sleeve
122 - clothing (right)
123 - clothing (left)
SF is located at 37'45" N 122'27" W.
There is what appears to be an octopus head, upside-down, just below her wrists and between the dragon's wings.
We never did find out what happened re maltedfalcon's March 28 dig announcement. Falcon?
Aces88 is right - The "Gh" look exactly like the ones in the Image 1. I noticed that there is a clock tower in the SE corner of Ghirardelli Square (b. 1911), but the clock face bears no resemblance to the clock in the picture.
(Going to the Ghirardelli website made me really want chocolate, but all I have in my house are miniature Reese's cups - a far cry, I think...)
All 12 pictures have a birth flower in them. More often than not, I'm guessing, this has no significance. However, the Cleveland picture's daffodil was used as part of the "Bellflower" rebus. The rose in Pic 1 looks suspiciously like part of a rebus to me, especially with that weird stem. What could it mean?
The Golden Gate Park, Ghirardelli Square, and Cliff House solutions all match some of the clues, but not all of the clues. For example, if the casque really is buried in Ghirardelli Square (as the Gh would suggest), why would an abstract representation of Golden Gate Park be necessary? And vice versa. None of the suggested solutions accounts for the barred window.
Several agreed that the blue shape on the left looks like North Lake in Golden Gate Park. I found some map images of North Lake that don't look anything like it:
And finally, because a picture is worth 1000 words...
maltedfalcon
Wow!
That golden gate clue is right on.
BTW Its not the blue thing looks like north lake
its the blue shape looks like the south end of north lake.
or the section on your map which is under the words "North Lake"
and its not that it looks like the lake from a photograph
its that it looks exactly like that section of north lake, from the tourist map you can get in the park
that was available in the 1980s like it was traced.
The current map is a little different as is the shape of the lake
well actually there is no lake there at all right now. its all drained dirt and being renovated.
maltedfalcon
Wow!
That golden gate clue is right on.
BTW Its not the blue thing looks like north lake
its the blue shape looks like the south end
of
north lake.
or the section on your map which is under the words "North Lake"
and its not that it looks like the lake from a photograph
its that it looks exactly like that section
of
north lake, from the tourist map you can get in the park
that was available in the 1980s like it was traced.
The current map is a little different as is the shape
of
the lake
well actually there is no lake there at all right now. its all drained dirt and being renovated.
maltedfalcon
oh sorry,
no news is bad news-
found nothing. hit a 100 year old cast iron pipe - that got my pulse going....
but didnt find anything...
abqram
Been real busy at work, but things look to be slowing down a bit. Anyway, take a look at the rose one more time.
I
told Fox that there is a woman hidden in the rose with her back arched. Does anyone else see this? If so, is there any link to what we've been discussing?
ABQRAM
abqram
Been real busy at work, but things look to be slowing down a bit. Anyway, take a look at the rose one more time. I told Fox that there is a woman hidden in the rose with her back arched. Does anyone else see this? If so, is there any link to what we've been discussing?
ABQRAM
maltedfalcon
I see the what you are talking about
kind of vague to say "woman" more of a "figure"
The legs are a bit long - kind of looks like the AOL logo guy
maltedfalcon
I
see the what you are talking about
kind
of
vague to say "woman" more
of
a "figure"
The legs are a bit long - kind
of
looks like the AOL logo guy
spacecraft9
Hi Malted,
Saw your post on the sad news page. On a less somber note, nice find on the Twain passage. In the spririt
of
honoring Preiss by pressing on in the hunt,
I
have two follow up questions:
Is the "architectural autocrat" the city or the cathedral? If the latter, are there any local cathedral's nearby that could be the object, rather than the cathedral in Milan?
It seems to me that "giant pole, giant step" might mean that you should "step" out exactly the same distance as the pole is high. It's probably a lot more digging, but have you considered looking 26 feet out from the center (or edge)
of
the base in any
of
your favorite directions?
spacecraft9
Hi Malted,
Saw your post on the sad news page. On a less somber note, nice find on the Twain passage. In the spririt of honoring Preiss by pressing on in the hunt, I have two follow up questions:
Is the "architectural autocrat" the city or the cathedral? If the latter, are there any local cathedral's nearby that could be the object, rather than the cathedral in Milan?
It seems to me that "giant pole, giant step" might mean that you should "step" out exactly the same distance as the pole is high. It's probably a lot more digging, but have you considered looking 26 feet out from the center (or edge) of the base in any of your favorite directions?
fox
that is a new twist on the pole & step debate spacecraft.
I
like it! Your step should equal the pole...hmmm, interesting.
fox
that is a new twist on the pole & step debate spacecraft. I like it! Your step should equal the pole...hmmm, interesting.
maltedfalcon
Interesting idea.
There are cathedrals nearby, but coincidentalyy they are in the same direction as Milan. (northwest)
basically the whole passage by twain is speaking specifcally about the Milan Cathedral.
the next question would be how tall was the totem pole in 1982, becauase as rot set in they would periodially lift the totem pole
and chainsaw off the bottom. So over time the totem pole got shorter.
one thing is in another thread somebody noticed that in the chicago and cleveland finds - both were buried next to something
making it easier to locate (BP obviously took photos after he buried the casques) 24 feet out from the totem pole would be
down a hill and into the grass. and in an extremely visible area, and difficult to exactly place without anything right nearby to reference from. Remember in chicago even with the photo of the burial site they almost missed it.
maltedfalcon
Interesting idea.
There are cathedrals nearby, but coincidentalyy they are in the same direction as Milan. (northwest)
basically the whole passage by twain is speaking specifcally about the Milan Cathedral.
the next question would be how tall was the totem pole in 1982, becauase as rot set in they would periodially lift the totem pole
and chainsaw off the bottom. So over time the totem pole got shorter.
one thing is in another thread somebody noticed that in the chicago and cleveland finds - both were buried next to something
making it easier to locate (BP obviously took photos after he buried the casques) 24 feet out from the totem pole would be
down a hill and into the grass. and in an extremely visible area, and difficult to exactly place without anything right nearby to reference from. Remember in chicago even with the photo
of
the burial site they almost missed it.
wilhouse
I
agree with Falcon, preiss buried these so they could be dug up again.
I
don't think giant step was a "take a step" type
of
step.. it was more
of
a "look, there's a giant step" type
of
step (perhaps a concrete step around a flagpole type
of
thing.
wilhouse
__________________________________
Byron Preiss, you will not be forgotten
wilhouse
I agree with Falcon, preiss buried these so they could be dug up again.
I don't think giant step was a "take a step" type of step.. it was more of a "look, there's a giant step" type of step (perhaps a concrete step around a flagpole type of thing.
wilhouse
__________________________________
Byron Preiss, you will not be forgotten
hollidaze3
hey ya'll...holli here...
i
have gone over this image...and have what
i
think is the verse to go with it...yes...
i
did get san francisco as well...
i
do have an idea where
i
think it is close too...its the last line that is buggin me...same as everyone else...verse 7 right?
anyone want to hear my ideas?
let me know...thanks..holli
hollidaze3
hey ya'll...holli here...i have gone over this image...and have what i think is the verse to go with it...yes...i did get san francisco as well...i do have an idea where i think it is close too...its the last line that is buggin me...same as everyone else...verse 7 right?
anyone want to hear my ideas?
let me know...thanks..holli
wilhouse
Holli, if you don't mind, a word
of
advice?
On this board, we are all equals. Every idea is valid and respected. The search for the treasure is intrinsic - if one finds it we all find it. Many
of
us have our pets, certainly mine is Houston, but we all share our information. No hiding information, or PMing, or even asking if anyone wants to hear it.
Jump in, both feet. You will be listened to and accepted. If it occurs you can share in the find any way the finders all agree. The jewels, if we still get them, aren't worth that much, only around $800 at last count. It's the finding that's the reward.
wilhouse
wilhouse
Holli, if you don't mind, a word of advice?
On this board, we are all equals. Every idea is valid and respected. The search for the treasure is intrinsic - if one finds it we all find it. Many of us have our pets, certainly mine is Houston, but we all share our information. No hiding information, or PMing, or even asking if anyone wants to hear it.
Jump in, both feet. You will be listened to and accepted. If it occurs you can share in the find any way the finders all agree. The jewels, if we still get them, aren't worth that much, only around $800 at last count. It's the finding that's the reward.
wilhouse
hollidaze3
thanks wil....im still under the tweleve spell...where i gotta be careful what i say...i apologize to everyone...not my intention...alrighty?
so here are my ideas - the building under the bridge...the stone wall's door...
high posts are 3 - gg bridge
education and justice - university and hall of justice
sounds from the sky - the airport
the twain's affection - mark twain hotel on taylor street
im still hashing out the giant pole, giant step part...
and i hope this isnt a repetative answer to anything already posted...
thanks agin wil,
holli
hollidaze3
thanks wil....im still under the tweleve spell...where
i
gotta be careful what
i
say...
i
apologize to everyone...not my intention...alrighty?
so here are my ideas - the building under the bridge...the stone wall's door...
high posts are 3 - gg bridge
education and justice - university and hall
of
justice
sounds from the sky - the airport
the twain's affection - mark twain hotel on taylor street
im still hashing out the giant pole, giant step part...
and
i
hope this isnt a repetative answer to anything already posted...
thanks agin wil,
holli
forest_blight
I
'll second what wilhouse said. Even if a solution came to me out
of
the blue,
I
wouldn't think
of
taking a shovel to the site without one or two forum members in tow (probably wilhouse, since he has a back-hoe at his beck and call!).
forest_blight
I'll second what wilhouse said. Even if a solution came to me out of the blue, I wouldn't think of taking a shovel to the site without one or two forum members in tow (probably wilhouse, since he has a back-hoe at his beck and call!).
wilhouse
Holli, I haven't had time to check out your answer, but make sure the Mark Twain hotel was there in 1982.
Preiss buried these in 1981-1982 time frame.
wilhouse (have backhoe, will travel)
wilhouse
Holli,
I
haven't had time to check out your answer, but make sure the Mark Twain hotel was there in 1982.
Preiss buried these in 1981-1982 time frame.
wilhouse (have backhoe, will travel)
drewsmith
wilhouse wrote::
Holli, I haven't had time to check out your answer, but make sure the Mark Twain hotel was there in 1982. Preiss buried these in 1981-1982 time frame.
The Executive Hotel Mark Twain at 345 Taylor Street in San Francisco was built in 1928.
Drew
drewsmith
wilhouse wrote::
Holli,
I
haven't had time to check out your answer, but make sure the Mark Twain hotel was there in 1982. Preiss buried these in 1981-1982 time frame.
The Executive Hotel Mark Twain at 345 Taylor Street in San Francisco was built in 1928.
Drew
fox
well then...i would say that the hotel was indeed there a short (lol) time before BP rolled in. thanks for the info
fox
well then...
i
would say that the hotel was indeed there a short (lol) time before BP rolled in. thanks for the info
hollidaze3
so where does the Giant Pole and Giant Step come from? i have been workin on yet another hunt (non- ATT) heheh...and havent been able to do anymore research on that particular area...any ideas?
thanks holli
ps...thanks drew...i thought it was...
mxb
Hi all... I'm mostly a lurker on this board and I'm nowhere near SF. But I had a thought that I haven't seen posted here. Does anyone know if there is a big statue of someone Polish in SF (giant Pole)?
Matt
forest_blight
The idea has been raised before (dan39decoy, last year), but there were no takers. I really like the idea, because it doesn't involve a straightforward interpretation of "pole."
Voltaire
Hello, I'm a newbie here, a longtime lurker and a friend of forest blight's.
I'm in San Francisco on vacation right now, and I thought I'd have a go at this one. I am assuming verse 7 and image 1 go together, and this morning I learned that Coit Tower on Telegraph Hill is one of three towers that have stood at that location. The telegraph and other signal tower that once stood there may be "sounds from the sky," though I'm not certain. Also, several churches are visible from the top of the hill, though none of them are cathedral churches.
This location is a good deal closer to Ghirardelli Square than the Golden Gate Park, indeed only about twelve blocks away.
I hope I haven't covered any old ground here, and I'm sorry if this post is inappropriate...
fox
Good luck on your search Voltaire. Keep us all posted. If I were you, dont discount GGP just yet. If you have time, you may just want to roam around the park and see if you spot something that maltedfalcon may have missed. (although mf is one sharp cookie)
Voltaire
If anyone would like me to take pictures of specific sites in SF, I am here until Saturday and able to photograph with a high-res digital camera. Just send me a message and I'll head out tomorrow. I have already taken several dozen pictures of the area around Coit Tower, as I am convinced that the three high posts represent the three historical towers that have stood in succession atop this hill--a flag signaling tower, a telegraph tower, and the Coit memorial tower. Each one is commemorated by notices around the top of Telegraph Hill.
Detailed pictures of these sights will follow, as will pictures from around Ghirardelli Square. Anything else, just shoot me a message.
forest_blight
I wouldn't be surprised if Voltaire returned home with casque in tow. A little Googling and reading about Coit Tower leaves me very optimistic - it's an attractive site.
Consider, for example, paintings #16 and #17 here...
hxxp://www.coittower.org/murals/floorplan.html
...and compare their outlines to that of Image 1.
I would just keep an eye out for things alluded to in various verses, especially Verse 7. For example, if there is a statue of Mark Twain looking directly at a patch of sand, I would be encouraged!
drewsmith
forest_blight wrote::
I wouldn't be surprised if Voltaire returned home with casque in tow. A little Googling and reading about Coit Tower leaves me very optimistic - it's an attractive site.
Consider, for example, paintings #16 and #17 here...
hxxp://www.coittower.org/murals/floorplan.html
...and compare their outlines to that of Image 1.
I would just keep an eye out for things alluded to in various verses, especially Verse 7. For example, if there is a statue of Mark Twain looking directly at a patch of sand, I would be encouraged!
Interesting. The description of painting 16 refers to the University of California (in other words, Education), while the description of painting 17 refers to Alcatraz Prison (in other words, Justice). "For all to see", indeed.
Drew
fox
Very nice Drew. I was excited just because the tops of those 2 pix were rounded like P1 and included a dark sky and rocky mountains. Then you drop the bombshell about education and justice. Coit tower has to be near.
bring one home Voltaire.....bring one home!
forest_blight
Wow, drew, that's a wonderful observation. I think I just heard a "clink" as a couple of pieces fell nicely into place.
I wonder if anything in (or around, or visible from) the Coit Tower has to do with airplanes.
Near ace is high
suggests a "flying ace," which would be high if the plane is aloft. Is there an airplane in any of the murals? That would also qualify as
Sounds from the sky
, too, by the way, but then, so would the Berkeley campanile in the east painting.
In jewel's direction
may not refer to the casque at all (since there is no jewel there, after all), but rather to the artificial Treasure Island (hardee har), home of the 1939 World's Fair and a former military base. And frankly there isn't much between Coit Tower and Treasure Island but water and a little land. So if this is helpful at all, is there an
object / Of Twain's attention
or a
Giant pole / Giant step
to the northeast of the tower?
wilhouse
I know this is a stretch, but somewhere in my mind I remember that a telegraph tower used to be known as a "pole", meaning that the possibly something on the Telegraph Hill could actually be the telegraph pole?
wilhouse
drewsmith
While we're focusing on Coit Tower, could the blue lake-like image on the left be the outline of Pioneer Park? I couldn't find a good map to compare the two outlines.
Drew
Voltaire
I spent most of the day taking tons of pictures at Ghirardelli Square, actually, but I walked away disappointed. The walls around Ghirardelli are brick, not stone, and though the air smells sweet, I couldn't find much else to satisfy me there.
But I'm heading to Coit tomorrow. I'll be wearing a black pullover and a green-and-blue striped polo shirt--bad fashion sense, but conspicuous. If any of you want to meet me there, I'll almost certainly be in the tower vicinity all tomorrow morning, taking pictures, asking questions, and dropping hints.
drewsmith
And while I'm letting my mind wander a bit...
Mark Twain often credited Bret Harte as being his mentor. Harte apparently lived in SF at 716 Montgomery Street at the time he wrote some of his stories (Ralph Stackpole, one of the Coit muralists, also lived there). And one of Harte's stories was "The Outcasts of Poker Flat".
Has anyone connected "ace is high" to poker?
Drew
catherwood
hey, seems several of us are reading this right now! let's meet in chat!
I must be at the office all day Friday, and I don't think I'd want to be treasure hunting at night. It's been a while since i've been near Coit, but I thought it was all residential streets. (Hey, rbfox, it's right near where P.Dreizen lived!) Maybe a bit of earth and trees along a winding page around the base? Yes, it's been too long, but I think i'll continue working remotely on this one some more. Good luck! And welcome to California!
Voltaire
One final suggestion before I head out for the day: "
In jewel's direction
" may refer not to the prize, but to Julius (Jules) Street, which is just north of Coit Tower.
That one kept me up last night wondering... How exactly would I get away with digging at a public landmark in broad daylight?
Any tips on digging etiquette or protocol, just in case I get lucky a few more times and decide to go down that path at Coit Tower?
Voltaire
Okay, one MORE observation, again going with the Coit Tower theme. I about peed my pants when I realized this one--and it was from reviewing a picture that I took two days ago, back when I was a relative novice!
I have a picture of a very striking low-relief freize on the wall of a nearby residence. It's three stories tall, and judging by the architecture and artistic style, it dates from the 1930s. It depicts a shirtless man holding a globe while three airplanes fly overhead.
It's also right across the street from the east pedestrian walkway to Pioneer Park, the home of Coit Tower.
Could this be "
Near ace is high?
"
Of course, the man is gigantic, so it could be "
giant step
," too. I'm more inclined to think that this line is a literal direction to take for the exact spot where the casque is to be found, though.
Sadly, I can't upload the pictures because I have no way to shrink them on my laptop. I've emailed my "ace" picture to forest blight, though, so maybe he can do it.
forest_blight
Mark Twain published in San Francisco's
The Golden Era
in the 1860s. Here are the articles:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Era/eraindex.html
I went through them all, and besides some very good reading (check out his hilarious
Biographical Sketch of George Washington
, March 4, 1866), many SF locations are given
attention
, some more than others. Here is a list of the ones I noticed:
September 20, 1863
Lick House (huge hotel once located on the corner of Montgomery and Sutter, considered the "finest hotel west of the Mississippi;" destroyed 1906 along with pretty much everything else I'll mention)
Occidental Hotel (like Lick House, also located on Montgomery St. between Sutter and Bush)
September 27, 1863
Lick House
September 27, 1863
Lick House
Goat Island (Duchess of) (Goat Island is now Yerba Buena Island)
October 11, 1863
Montgomery St.
Occidental Hotel
Lick House
Seal Rock Point (NW corner of peninsula)
Cliff House (NW corner of peninsula)
March 27, 1864
Lick House
Seal Rock Point
June 17-23, 1864
Occidental Hotel
Opera House (?)
Metropolitan (on Montgomery St. between Washington and Jackson)
the Academy of Music (on Pine St., below Montgomery)
American (theatre on the corner of Sansome and Halleck)
the New Idea (a theatre)
the Museum (?)
the Bank Exchange (?)
Maguire's Opera House (on Washington St. above Montgomery)
July 3, 1864
Cliff House
Ocean House (a SF hotel, location unknown; where Sloat Blvd. meets the beach?)
January 28, 1866
Kearny St. (a N-S street that, if it could, would run directly through Pioneer Park)
January, 1866
Police Court
January 28, 1866
Russ House (hotel on W. side of Montgomery St., between Bush and Pine)
Cosmopolitan Hotel (once at 100 5th St.)
Occidental Hotel
February, 1866
Montgomery St.
Clay St.
Washington St.
February 25-28, 1866
Occidental Hotel
South Park (a park on South Park St., near southern end of Embarcadero)
Twain also wrote for the
Daily Morning Call
:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/callindex.html
I haven't gone through these in detail because the others took all morning, and I'm supposed to be working (!). But one mentions the Bella Union Melodeon (corner of Washington and Kearny).
Anyway, many of these, plus other material, were apparently collected in the books
Washoe Giant in San Francisco
and
Mark Twain's San Francisco
, both of which may be worth obtaining and scouring at some point.
forest_blight
Here's a close-up I found of some of the windows in Coit Tower. Note the shape:
Voltaire
: As for the air smelling sweet at Ghirardelli Square, we could group the line
The air smells sweet
with
Not far away
rather than with
At stone wall's door
; i.e., "if you're standing at Coit Tower (which also isn't stone, but concrete from what I understand), nearby at Ghirardelli Square the air is sweet, but
here
, high posts (successive telegraph towers) are three." So, we (might) have the following:
At stone wall's door
At Coit Tower...
The air smells sweet
Not far away
Within sight is Ghirardelli Square with the "G h" backwards...
High posts are three
There were three telegraph towers here...
Education and Justice
For all to see
You can see Berkeley and Alcatraz in those paintings that have the same shape as Image 1...
Sounds from the sky
?
Near ace is high
The dude with the globe and airplanes across the street?
drew
: wilhouse and Fox connected
ace is high
to poker over on the Verse 7 thread, and you're right, that makes a lot of sense.
Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
ay, there's the rub
Giant pole
What could "pole" refer to? We are already aware of the Coit Tower reference, so this meaning would be redundant. Something else then?
drew
: Ralph Stackpole has "pole" in his name.
Giant step
There are some pretty giant step-like thingies in front of Coit Tower. Are they diggable? If so, the spot might resemble the planter area of the Cleveland find.
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap_coittower.htm
To the place
The casque is kept.
forest_blight
Here's a close-up I found of some of the windows in Coit Tower. Note the shape:
Voltaire
: As for the air smelling sweet at Ghirardelli Square, we could group the line
The air smells sweet
with
Not far away
rather than with
At stone wall's door
; i.e., "if you're standing at Coit Tower (which also isn't stone, but concrete from what I understand), nearby at Ghirardelli Square the air is sweet, but
here
, high posts (successive telegraph towers) are three." So, we (might) have the following:
At stone wall's door
At Coit Tower...
The air smells sweet
Not far away
Within sight is Ghirardelli Square with the "G h" backwards...
High posts are three
There were three telegraph towers here...
Education and Justice
For all to see
You can see Berkeley and Alcatraz in those paintings that have the same shape as Image 1...
Sounds from the sky
?
Near ace is high
The dude with the globe and airplanes across the street?
drew
: wilhouse and Fox connected
ace is high
to poker over on the Verse 7 thread, and you're right, that makes a lot of sense.
Running
north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
ay, there's the rub
Giant pole
What could "pole" refer to? We are already aware of the Coit Tower reference, so this meaning would be redundant. Something else then?
drew
: Ralph Stackpole has "pole" in his name.
Giant step
There are some pretty giant step-like thingies in front of Coit Tower. Are they diggable? If so, the spot might resemble the planter area of the Cleveland find.
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap_coittower.htm
To the place
The casque is kept.
Voltaire
I'm heading out the door. Call me on my cell phone at 443 306 5220 if there are any important tower-related finds, as I plan to have breakfast then be in that area all day today taking pictures or maybe even digging.
Again, I'll be wearing a black pullover and a green polo shirt underneath. I'm male, white, 6'2", with short brown hair if you want to stop me and say hi.
forest_blight
Just got off the phone with Voltaire (the treasure hunter, not the famous historical figure). He has some exciting updates, but I'll let him share them later. Hot on the trail now.
fox
catherwood wrote::
it's right near where P.Dreizen lived!
ahhh, the infamous P. Dreizen
still say US was apple
fox
is there a Havana St nearby? wondering if CC (
hxxp://www.mayoff.com/5-01coitDCP01905.jpg
) could be object of Twains attention. He had a famous quote about CC that went like this: "In a museum in Havana there are two skulls of Christopher Columbus, "one when he was a boy and one when he was a man.""
just some more ramblings. CC statue is so close by tho.
fox
wilhouse wrote::
I know this is a stretch, but somewhere in my mind I remember that a telegraph tower used to be known as a "pole", meaning that the possibly something on the Telegraph Hill could actually be the telegraph pole?
wilhouse
here is mention of poles used.
hxxp://www.noehill.com/sf/landmarks/cal0091.asp
forest_blight
fox
: I wonder if it could be that simple! Is there dirt on top of the pedestal (
Giant step
) in which one could dig?
forest_blight
Voltaire's frieze on Montgomery:
fox
a little more precise location of our pole?
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/allaboutge ... et-114799/
maybe the "Giant step" simply refers to the giant statue who would take giant steps.
dirt on this pedestal fb?
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/allaboutge ... 799/
doesnt look like it and i dont see BP digging in the fenced in area around CC. Could be nearby tho
forest_blight
fox
: Sure looks like a lot of dirt to me. Anyway, something to think about.
As for the plaque, would you believe Voltaire read me the contents of that plaque on the phone about an hour and a half ago? We were quite excited that it mentioned the pole.
fox
another thought... could the table's pedestal in this P represent Coit Tower? We still have yet to decipher the table. I know it isnt the exact shape of Coit Tower
hxxp://www.magazinusa.com/images_st2/ca ... _tower.jpg
like the buildings located in the 2 "found" P's but.......
could it be something more like this?
hxxp://www.geoffreydrewmarketing.com/an ... nozzle.jpg
"The artists also claimed that the building was a mockery because they assumed (as do many today) that architects Brown and Howard had designed the monument in the shape of a fire hose nozzle in memory of Lillie Coit's fondness for the Fire Department, an intention that the architects consistently denied." found on history of CT
hxxp://www.coittower.org/history/histor ... tower.html
the stem on the rose atop the table seems to curl into the letter "C" for Coit also
Voltaire
Alright... Here is a point-by-point explanation of all I managed to find today. Executive summary: If I had had a shovel--and a little time alone--I would have dug. The site is very crowded with tourists, though, so any dig will have to be early morning or late at night if possible.
Before you ask, I have photographs to document every word of what follows.
Alright, start with verse 7.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Going up to Pioneer Park from the east side (Montgomery St), there is a long flight of steps made of concrete, not stone. They are, however, surrounded by tons of different flowers, many of which I photographed. They include roses, if it matters, and I am assured that in springtime the air smells wonderfully sweet.
Incidentally, the nearest street address to this point of entrance is 1445 Montgomery. Now turn to the woman's robe in Image 1. Consider the number of sides of the figures surrounding the "Gh:" They run circle, square, square, triangle, or 1-4-4-3, the address that the lot should have had (it's not marked, but this should be it).
Go to the top of the concrete stairs, and there is a stone wall partly surrounding the top of Telegraph Hill around the border of Pioneer Park. It's real stone--jasper--and not fake concrete stuff. The air smells sweet here too, thanks to abundant flowering currant bushes.
Not far away
High posts are three
Telegraph hill has been home to three high posts. First, there was a semaphore tower, the foundations of which are still standing. Second, there was a telegraph post, which is not in existence any longer. Third, there is Coit Tower itself, whose windows all have the shape of the outside border of Image 1.
Education and Justice
For all to see
These are likely the paintings of Alcatraz and the University, as discussed above in the thread. I've photographed them myself, and my one remaining doubt concerns the capital letters: There simply aren't any personifications of Education or Justice in evidence, and these are what we would expect from the capital letters.
Sounds from the sky
There is a memorial to Marconi, the inventor of radio, just across from the northwest end of Pioneer Park.
Near ace is high
The Montgomery Atlas, located at 1360 Montgomery Street. He certainly looks like a flying ace, who can span the globe thanks to the airplanes flying overhead. The closest intersecting street is called Alta, which means high in Spanish. A line from the Montgomery Atlas through the Marconi memorial would go straight through Pioneer Park, and, I believe, directly across the treasure site as well.
Running
north, but first across
In jewel's direction
In a slightly different direction, Montgomery runs north-south; number 1360 is south of 1443, where the stairway can be found to Pioneer Park. But if you go north to the end of the street, you hit Julius' Castle, a restaurant and club that has been in operation since 1922. Julius = Jules = jewel's.
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
I haven't read enough Twain, but I understand that this exact neighborhood was a favorite topic of his.
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept.
Atop Telegraph Hill, the memorial plaque for the semaphore tower describes the device as a "tall pole." My best guess at this point is to take a giant step from the foundation of the tower in the direction of Ghirardelli Square. That square, with the backwards "Gh" plainly visible, is in a more or less direct line with Marconi, the semaphore tower, and the Montgomery Atlas/Ace.
Difficulties:
I drew very few matches on the architecture. The image just doesn't show much relating to Coit Tower and its environment. Yes, there are roses, and yes, there are the arched windows. But everything up there is in this very spare, art-deco style, or else in done in 1930s-era socialist realism. The motifs up there are nothing at all like the picture: No yin-yangs; no roman numerals even. (On a lark, I looked at every one of the engraved bricks that were placed in the steps to mark sponsors of the park's refurbishment. Preiss doesn't show up... Oh well. That one would have been a dead giveaway.)
So... What do you all think?
Voltaire
Alright... Here is a point-by-point explanation of all I managed to find today. Executive summary: If I had had a shovel--and a little time alone--I would have dug. The site is very crowded with tourists, though, so any dig will have to be early morning or late at night if possible.
Before you ask, I have photographs to document every word of what follows.
Alright, start with verse 7.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Going up to Pioneer Park from the east side (Montgomery St), there is a long flight of steps made of concrete, not stone. They are, however, surrounded by tons of different flowers, many of which I photographed. They include roses, if it matters, and I am assured that in springtime the air smells wonderfully sweet.
Incidentally, the nearest street address to this point of entrance is 1445 Montgomery. Now turn to the woman's robe in Image 1. Consider the number of sides of the figures surrounding the "Gh:" They run circle, square, square, triangle, or 1-4-4-3, the address that the lot should have had (it's not marked, but this should be it).
Go to the top of the concrete stairs, and there is a stone wall partly surrounding the top of Telegraph Hill around the border of Pioneer Park. It's real stone--jasper--and not fake concrete stuff. The air smells sweet here too, thanks to abundant flowering currant bushes.
Not far away
High posts are three
Telegraph hill has been home to three high posts. First, there was a semaphore tower, the foundations of which are still standing. Second, there was a telegraph post, which is not in existence any longer. Third, there is Coit Tower itself, whose windows all have the shape of the outside border of Image 1.
Education and Justice
For all to see
These are likely the paintings of Alcatraz and the University, as discussed above in the thread. I've photographed them myself, and my one remaining doubt concerns the capital letters: There simply aren't any personifications of Education or Justice in evidence, and these are what we would expect from the capital letters.
Sounds from the sky
There is a memorial to Marconi, the inventor of radio, just across from the northwest end of Pioneer Park.
Near ace is high
The Montgomery Atlas, located at 1360 Montgomery Street. He certainly looks like a flying ace, who can span the globe thanks to the airplanes flying overhead. The closest intersecting street is called Alta, which means high in Spanish. A line from the Montgomery Atlas through the Marconi memorial would go straight through Pioneer Park, and, I believe, directly across the treasure site as well.
Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
In a slightly different direction, Montgomery runs north-south; number 1360 is south of 1443, where the stairway can be found to Pioneer Park. But if you go north to the end of the street, you hit Julius' Castle, a restaurant and club that has been in operation since 1922. Julius = Jules = jewel's.
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
I haven't read enough Twain, but I understand that this exact neighborhood was a favorite topic of his.
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept.
Atop Telegraph Hill, the memorial plaque for the semaphore tower describes the device as a "tall pole." My best guess at this point is to take a giant step from the foundation of the tower in the direction of Ghirardelli Square. That square, with the backwards "Gh" plainly visible, is in a more or less direct line with Marconi, the semaphore tower, and the Montgomery Atlas/Ace.
Difficulties:
I drew very few matches on the architecture. The image just doesn't show much relating to Coit Tower and its environment. Yes, there are roses, and yes, there are the arched windows. But everything up there is in this very spare, art-deco style, or else in done in 1930s-era socialist realism. The motifs up there are nothing at all like the picture: No yin-yangs; no roman numerals even. (On a lark, I looked at every one of the engraved bricks that were placed in the steps to mark sponsors of the park's refurbishment. Preiss doesn't show up... Oh well. That one would have been a dead giveaway.)
So... What do you all think?
forest_blight
Wow, Voltaire, thanks for the report! Only a few notes for now.
First, the tower was restored in 1984, after
The Secret
was written, so it is unlikely that you would have encountered Preiss' name in the bricks. I don't know the extent of the restoration, but it might have disrupted things a bit. Perhaps a giant flagpole was removed from somewhere.
Second, I think you have hit upon the correct interpretation of the shapes as 1443. Excellent job. Even in the unlikely event that you turn out to be wrong that 1443 is a street address, the shapes certainly represent 1443 (or 3441 if we follow 'G h' backwards, but probably 1443).
Voltaire
1-4-4-3 was my husband's idea, which he thought up before we even knew the street address of the lot with the stairs on it.
Right now I am wondering if someone with better connections than my own in this city might be able to get us some quick permission to dig, say from the park rangers or something? I worry because there are security cameras trained on the parking lot around the columbus statue, so it's not likely to be too safe at any time of day. And digging under cover of darkness is just asking to spend the night in jail.
Voltaire
More documentation:
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?q=1360+Mont ... &t=k&hl=en
1360 Montgomery is where the Atlas/Ace can be found. The street immediately below it is Alta, or "high."
Just to the left is 1443 Montgomery (the numbers are a bit screwy, I admit). This is the lot with the staircase, the flower gardens, and the way up to the stone wall, which is visible to the left, curving around the southeast end of Pioneer Park (it looks like a backwards J).
At the end of Montgomery Street (covered by the balloon) is Julius' Palace.
Now, here's where it gets interesting...
To the northwest you can see Pioneer Park, with Coit Tower and the statue of Columubs. To the north and a bit west of
that
is the Marconi memoria ("Sounds from the sky/ Near ace is high"), which looks like a half-circle rounded to the right.
Make a line between 1360, 1443, and Marconi... and it goes DIRECTLY through the very spot of the old signal tower, which is at about the 11 o'clock position of the circle going around the Columbus statue in front of Coit Tower.
drewsmith
Could the "giant step" refer to the Filbert Street Steps?
Drew
Voltaire
If the giant step is the Filbert Street steps, then I have no idea where specifically to look for the casque. As it stands, I've got one well-defined patch of dirt.
Also, the Filbert Street steps are by no means the only ones around. The place is crawiling with steps, so much so that I wore out one of my usually sturdy knees and can barely walk anymore.
drewsmith
Personally, I have some doubts that the 2 symbols on the left and the 2 symbols on the right should be read together as a 4-digit number. To me, that seems something of a stretch. I would find it more likely that if you reverse the photo (so that the Gh appears correctly), you get 34 on the left and 41 on the right, which are a better match for the pier numbers just north of the Coit area. Perhaps their only purpose is to orient you in the right neighborhood, just like the 122 and 123 numbers do regarding longitude.
I like the idea that "near ace is high" refers to Alta Street, but I'm not sure that the giant refers to an "ace". He's not flying the planes!
Drew
Voltaire
More details, as I digest them...
1. The Marconi park isn't just a fluke. Consider the inscription below his profile:
"Fulgura praevertens vacvam vox permeat aethram."
Using what scant Latin I can muster, I get...
"Faster than lightning your voice permeates the empty aether..."
2. I could find no convincing items to match the table leg, but there is a distinct four-holed spot next to the plaque marking the old semaphore pole. It's clearly a place where something was torn out and where concrete was put to patch up the holes. There were four of them, and I have a picture marking the spot. Now what we need are old pictures of the area around Coit Tower to tell what used to be there, since I suspect the patching is recent.
Voltaire
Perhaps it's just the tail end of a wild, wild day, or perhaps I've made another find. I will say, however, that I'm quite uncertain about this last one--unlike, say, Marconi being the "sounds from the sky," which seems a great fit.
So... on top of everything else leading me to the neighborhood of Coit Tower and Pioneer Park, is it just my imagination or...
Does Lillie Hitchcock Coit look
a lot
like the woman in Image 1?
hxxp://images.google.com/images?q=lilli ... N&filter=0
It's also said that she wore long black silk dresses to social functions with her husband. Being the butch women's libber that she was, she also wore a flannel shirt on top of it.
She died July 22, 1929, FWIW.
wilhouse
I think you're close on the trail. Now to figure out where to dig..
wilhouse
drewsmith
I'm not sure I saw a resemblance between Ms. Coit and the Image 1 woman, but how about this one?
hxxp://www.helfenfinearts.com/biogs/ima ... ieldOz.jpg
Note that the artist is Otis Oldfield, our Coit Tower muralist.
Drew
drewsmith
Am I imagining things, or does this say what I think it says?
Drew
Voltaire
I give up. What does it say?
I get "CB," "CBB," and "ACB," but that's about it. Of course, I am certainly open to suggestions.
forest_blight
drewsmith
: Nice observation on the claws - I never looked closely at them before. Upside down, they could be a "93."
(while on the subject of letters, there might be a DD at the very bottom of her robe).
The 34 and 41 might be read separately, but I disagree with reading them backwards. I think the "G h" is backwards because that is how the letters are seen from Telegraph Hill.
Voltaire
: I'm afraid I see little resemblance between Coit and our lady. I can't place her ethnicity from her face, but the robe, the dragon, the origin of the pearl ("From far Cathay..."), and the yin and yang hint at Chinatown.
Voltaire
I spent a fair amount of time in Chinatown too, always with one eye out for the puzzle (and the other looking for cool stuff to buy). I did not get any great leads from the place; even Old Saint Mary's Cathedral, which is located on California and Grant Streets in the heart of Chinatown, did not provide any satisfying leads. Of the places I had a chance to explore, Telegrpah Hill remains by far the favorite.
forest_blight
A thing to consider is that the casque is not necessarily in Pioneer Park even if the reference is to Coit Tower. The tower could serve as a landmark or starting point for further directions (...
Running north, but first across
).
johann
Voltaire--
You mention something at the 11:00 position of a circle. There are 11 moons in the pic.
johann
Voltaire--
You mention something at the 11:00 position
of
a circle. There are 11 moons in the pic.
drewsmith
forest_blight wrote::
drewsmith
: Nice observation on the claws -
I
never looked closely at them before. Upside down, they could be a "93."
Ummmm,
I
wasn't talking about the claws.
I
was talking about what looks like a word in the very middle
of
the part
of
the image
I
've snipped. Just below the left claw, to the left
of
the right claw. (
I
realize that
I
'm being oblique, but
I
don't want to necessarily prejudice anyone else's interpretation.)
Drew
drewsmith
forest_blight wrote::
drewsmith
: Nice observation on the claws - I never looked closely at them before. Upside down, they could be a "93."
Ummmm, I wasn't talking about the claws. I was talking about what looks like a word in the very middle of the part of the image I've snipped. Just below the left claw, to the left of the right claw. (I realize that I'm being oblique, but I don't want to necessarily prejudice anyone else's interpretation.)
Drew
forest_blight
Oh,
I
see.
I
can't make out a word, but that doesn't mean there isn't one there.
But
I
do
find it curious that one
of
the claws looks normal and the other one seems to form a loop.
forest_blight
Oh, I see. I can't make out a word, but that doesn't mean there isn't one there.
But I
do
find it curious that one of the claws looks normal and the other one seems to form a loop.
fox
Drew, dont know if this is what u r looking for but....
I
can almost see the word COIT from top to bottom.
fox
Drew, dont know if this is what u r looking for but.... I can almost see the word COIT from top to bottom.
forest_blight
My scale is a little off, but wow... this might be a match.
drewsmith
fox wrote::
Drew, dont know if this is what u r looking for but....
I
can almost see the word COIT from top to bottom.
Yup! (although
I
thought it ran left to right...)
Drew
drewsmith
fox wrote::
Drew, dont know if this is what u r looking for but.... I can almost see the word COIT from top to bottom.
Yup! (although I thought it ran left to right...)
Drew
drewsmith
Fenix wrote::
I
hate to post this here instead
of
on the verse thread but
I
have a feeling "near ace is high" is referring to 11th ave which runs on either side
of
GGP.
I
am sure there was discussion
of
this in the correct thread. It seems "Sounds from the sky" with "near ace is high" is just a clever way to get people headed in the wrong direction.
I
mean who isn't going to start thinking about airplanes?
I
don't think
I
ever thought
of
it as relating to airplanes until someone else here suggested that idea. "Ace is high" reminded me primarily
of
poker, and secondarily
of
the number "1". Unless the context is already piloting,
I
wouldn't think
of
the word "ace" as referring to a pilot. Unless there's an actual statue or painting
of
a pilot, or a famous pilot involved in the geography,
I
still think that it's a stretch to construe "ace" as having anything to do with the flying variety.
Drew
drewsmith
Fenix wrote::
I hate to post this here instead of on the verse thread but I have a feeling "near ace is high" is referring to 11th ave which runs on either side of GGP. I am sure there was discussion of this in the correct thread. It seems "Sounds from the sky" with "near ace is high" is just a clever way to get people headed in the wrong direction. I mean who isn't going to start thinking about airplanes?
I don't think I ever thought of it as relating to airplanes until someone else here suggested that idea. "Ace is high" reminded me primarily of poker, and secondarily of the number "1". Unless the context is already piloting, I wouldn't think of the word "ace" as referring to a pilot. Unless there's an actual statue or painting of a pilot, or a famous pilot involved in the geography, I still think that it's a stretch to construe "ace" as having anything to do with the flying variety.
Drew
fox
Fenix wrote::
I
am sure the table has drove those
of
you close to this cask crazy.
nobody liked my firehose theory? oh well
fox
Fenix wrote::
I am sure the table has drove those of you close to this cask crazy.
nobody liked my firehose theory? oh well
Voltaire
The table and the mountains/water ARE driving me crazy. I'm back from my trip and will have more pictures posted soon, but I freely admit I have no plausible explanation for the following things:
1. the table
2. the weird shapes in the mountans
3. the "object of Twain's attention," specifically
4. the weird glyphs in the bottom 1/3 of the woman's tabard.
Other than that, I think I can explain everything with the solution I've given.
Voltaire
The table and the mountains/water ARE driving me crazy.
I
'm back from my trip and will have more pictures posted soon, but
I
freely admit
I
have no plausible explanation for the following things:
1. the table
2. the weird shapes in the mountans
3. the "object
of
Twain's attention," specifically
4. the weird glyphs in the bottom 1/3
of
the woman's tabard.
Other than that,
I
think
I
can explain everything with the solution
I
've given.
fox
still think table is a firehose
bclews
While
I
can see the firehose nozzle, it immediately reminded me
of
a metal Chinese garden lantern.
I
've looked for an image
of
the ones that
I
've seen, but
I
can't find the exact one.
I
'd look for a Chinese garden in the area.
Similar to this, but less ornate and made
of
metal --
hxxp://www.bonsaiinformation.com/Potsfo ... rn%201.jpg
bclews
While I can see the firehose nozzle, it immediately reminded me of a metal Chinese garden lantern. I've looked for an image of the ones that I've seen, but I can't find the exact one. I'd look for a Chinese garden in the area.
Similar to this, but less ornate and made of metal --
hxxp://www.bonsaiinformation.com/Potsfo ... rn%201.jpg
Voltaire
There really aren't any Chinese gardens in the area now,
I
'm afraid. There are quite a few gardens
of
different types, but none with lamps or stands or whatever that looked like this table.
I
had a photocopy
of
the image with me while
I
was on Telegraph Hill, and
I
couldn't find anything like it despite searching for it specifically. A firehose would be a great match, but
I
'd have to see one that came from the era before
I
signed on to that theory.
Voltaire
There really aren't any Chinese gardens in the area now, I'm afraid. There are quite a few gardens of different types, but none with lamps or stands or whatever that looked like this table. I had a photocopy of the image with me while I was on Telegraph Hill, and I couldn't find anything like it despite searching for it specifically. A firehose would be a great match, but I'd have to see one that came from the era before I signed on to that theory.
fox
I believe it is just another reference to Ellie Coit which confirms Coit Tower. Although, if that were the case, we may need another "outline" in this P for an actual building in the area. Who knows anymore..... lol
fox
I
believe it is just another reference to Ellie Coit which confirms Coit Tower. Although, if that were the case, we may need another "outline" in this P for an actual building in the area. Who knows anymore..... lol
SoonerFan
bclews wrote::
While I can see the firehose nozzle, it immediately reminded me of a metal Chinese garden lantern. I've looked for an image of the ones that I've seen, but I can't find the exact one. I'd look for a Chinese garden in the area.
Similar to this, but less ornate and made of metal --
hxxp://www.bonsaiinformation.com/Potsfo ... rn%201.jpg
just to keep the GG Park - Coit Tower tug of war going, I'm going to add another tug in the GG Park direction...
kind of like this one? (bottom right on link - its Japanese though)
hxxp://www.lightight.com/GGP/mem_images/Mem3P11.html
SoonerFan
bclews wrote::
While
I
can see the firehose nozzle, it immediately reminded me
of
a metal Chinese garden lantern.
I
've looked for an image
of
the ones that
I
've seen, but
I
can't find the exact one.
I
'd look for a Chinese garden in the area.
Similar to this, but less ornate and made
of
metal --
hxxp://www.bonsaiinformation.com/Potsfo ... rn%201.jpg
just to keep the GG Park - Coit Tower tug
of
war going,
I
'm going to add another tug in the GG Park direction...
kind
of
like this one? (bottom right on link - its Japanese though)
hxxp://www.lightight.com/GGP/mem_images/Mem3P11.html
bclews
SoonerFan wrote::
just to keep the GG Park - Coit Tower tug
of
war going,
I
'm going to add another tug in the GG Park direction...
kind
of
like this one? (bottom right on link - its Japanese though)
hxxp://www.lightight.com/GGP/mem_images/Mem3P11.html
My bad.
Yeah, that's what
I
was looking for.
bclews
SoonerFan wrote::
just to keep the GG Park - Coit Tower tug of war going, I'm going to add another tug in the GG Park direction...
kind of like this one? (bottom right on link - its Japanese though)
hxxp://www.lightight.com/GGP/mem_images/Mem3P11.html
My bad.
Yeah, that's what I was looking for.
forest_blight
Okay SoonerFan, I'll bite.
I think the evidence in favor of Coit Tower as the casque's location is
overwhelming
, and that for GG Park is sketchy at best. First, support for Coit Tower...
1. The street map hidden in dragon's scales
2. The shape of the windows in Coit Tower match that of Image 1 (unique to that image)
3.
Education and Justice / For all to see
are visible in the 2 Image-1-shaped paintings
4. 1-4-4-3 (on her robe) would be the exact address of the stairway leading up to the Tower
5.
Sounds from the sky
= telegraph tower or the nearby Marconi memorial
6. It is near where
The air smells sweet
(Ghirardelli Square)
7. Telegraph Hill has had
High posts are three
Individually suggestive, together they are utterly convincing. I think the evidence suggests that Coit Tower (and surrounding grounds) is not merely a landmark, but the site of the casque's burial.
I am still on the fence about "jewel" = "Julius" and about the Atlas fresco being the "ace is high" reference, but they are certainly good theories)
As for GG Park, we have the possible outline of one of the lakes, and I'll admit that the rectangular portion of her robe is evocative of GG Park turned on its side, but the dimensions (ratio of width to length) are off by more than you'd expect if one was a representation of the other (ratios 1:4.9 vs. 1:6.2). I am also not as convinced as some that the verse refers to nearby thoroughfares. I think it more likely that Mr. Preiss intended
Sounds from the sky
metaphorically rather than literally. It is a riddle, after all.
Fox
: At first I admit I snorted derisively at your suggestion that the table stand represented a firehose, but now I'm not feeling so derisive
fox
Thanks for the snort FB lol. To set the record straight, I am in no way trying to steer hunters either to or from a site. My firehose idea just "sort of" fits nicely with the whole Coit Tower. I honestly think we are zeroing in on this one and that SF will be the next city to finally release its casque.
wilhouse
don't bet on that!!
wilhouse
Pine_Tree
Hmmmmmm.....
Are you saying that based on the demonstrated difficulty in finding any casque?
Or do you have an expectation that another city will be next? Houston?
Do tell.
fox
wilhouse wrote::
don't bet on that!!
wilhouse
Are you getting close wilhouse? Or better yet, are you just waiting for your pictures to be developed so you can post your FIND on these boards? Hopefully the latter....but closer will work for me too.
wilhouse
Fox, I don't want to clog up this thread with verse 1 stuff; no I don't have it in hand, but before he passed Preiss told me that I had the right location. So I just need for the heat to break and go back and get it!
wilhouse
fox
Great News Wilhouse! I told you you would get it. I can't wait to see the pix!
wilhouse
I'm not counting my chickens, we know we can be off by 6" and not find the dang thing!!
wilhouse
forest_blight
I was doing some snooping around for another hunt (
Quest: In Search of the Dragon Tooth
) and noticed something peculiar. There is a more than passing resemblance between the rocks in Image 1 and the backgrounds of a pair of famous Da Vinci paintings called
Madonna of the Rocks
or
Virgin of the Rocks
. Images can be found everywhere, so I won't post them here. See:
hxxp://www.lairweb.org.nz/leonardo/rocks.html
hxxp://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=15432
hxxp://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=1980
To see my findings relevant to
Quest
, visit the Q4T
forum
on that book.
forest_blight
Unknown:
The shape of the windows in Coit Tower match that of Image 1 (unique to that image)
I don't know why I said this. Clearly Image 12 has the same arch shape to it, as do the panels just before Image 1 and just after Image 12. It may not be significant at all.
johann
I have been reading Byron Preiss's co-authored fantasy novel Dragonworld (1979). One of the characters has to get a dragon pearl. I do not think this helps with the hunt, but it is interesting.
boogieman
If the G and the h are backwards, by flipping the pic horizantally, you can see them the right way. Maybe the claws should be looked at the same way.
hxxp://www.freewebs.com/boogieman13/page1.htm
Looks like f and p. I know Fulton St has been mentioned.
How about Fulton Place or something similar?
fox
IMMIGRATION PORT CITY
San Francisco
"The Angel Island Immigration Station
Angel Island is probably best known as the home of the Angel Island Immigration Station. The station, which operated from 1910 to 1940, was the main entry point into the United States for people arriving from the Pacific routes. More than one million people were processed at the station; most were allowed to enter the United States immediately and did not spend much, if any, time on the island. Rather, they were allowed to enter San Francisco soon after their ships docked, and their paperwork was forwarded to the immigration station for processing and storage.
Because so many people were processed there, Angel Island is often called America's "Ellis Island of the West." This name is not accurate, however, due to an important difference in the missions of the two immigration stations. On Ellis Island, immigrants were welcomed to the United States, and the vast majority were processed and landed immediately. On Angel Island, however, many immigrants--most of whom were Chinese--were not welcomed at all and were allowed into this country only grudgingly. The Chinese exclusion laws, first passed in 1882 and updated periodically until 1943, were enacted to keep Chinese immigrants out of the United States. During the twentieth century, several other Asian ethnic groups were added as well to the "excluded" list.
In the mid- to late nineteenth century, large numbers of Chinese people were coming to the United States, drawn initially by the gold rush to San Francisco and Gam Saan (the Gold Mountain) then to work as inexpensive laborers on the transcontinental railroad and in mines in the western part of the country.(10) Many American-born workers perceived these laborers as having taken jobs away from them, and when an economic depression hit the United States in the 1870s, the anti-Chinese sentiment increased enormously. In response to public opinion, Congress passed the exclusion laws.
In enforcing these laws, immigration officials detained newly arrived Chinese people while they determined their eligibility to enter the United States. According to some estimates, 75 to 80 percent of the arrivals were admitted to the United States after some form of detention. Most detention periods ranged from few days or a couple of weeks to six months; a few lasted as long as nearly two years. Regardless of the length of time, detainees had little, if any, contact with friends or relatives on the mainland. For this reason, the immigration station on Angel Island was known among Immigration Service officials as the "Guardian of the Western Gate."(11)
A vessel carrying Chinese immigrants is met by the Health
Service boat from Angel Island.
The first laws barred the immigration of Chinese laborers for ten years: "Whereas in the opinion of the Government of the United States the coming of Chinese laborers to this country endangers the good order of certain localities within the territory thereof . . . the coming of Chinese laborers to the United States . . . is hereby suspended, and during such suspension it shall not be lawful for any Chinese laborer to come . . . [to] the United States."(12) The law was also explicit regarding matters of citizenship for Chinese people: "hereafter no State court or court of the United States shall admit Chinese to citizenship."(13)
The exclusion laws granted exemptions to certain groups of Chinese people. Teachers, consular officials, tourists, merchants, and the wives and children of exempt individuals were allowed to enter the United States. This last group of exempt people were generally the relatives of American-born Chinese or of those Chinese people who had been naturalized prior to the passage of the law and who had left families behind in China when they immigrated to the United States. Sometimes, however, Chinese men returned to China, married, and brought their wives to the United States.
In 1888 Congress passed another law, restricting a Chinese person's right to travel: "No Chinese laborer in the United States shall be permitted, after having left, to return thereto."(14) Again, as with the original exclusion laws, there were exceptions to this law. Individuals whose wives or children resided in the United States and those whose assets in this country were greater than one thousand dollars were allowed to leave and return.
The exclusion laws were renewed in 1892, with additional provisions. The most restrictive one required all Chinese laborers legally residing in the United States to obtain certificates of residence that offered proof of their legal status. Any Chinese laborer without such a certificate would be subject to arrest and deportation. Laws similar to these were also adopted around the turn of century in the Hawaiian territories.(15) "
taken from
hxxp://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/ ... natale.htm
fox
Located on Angel Island is this monument.
I find it interesting how it has 2 columns of characters and a round object centered above the columns....... similar to the pear above the robe in P1.
Trohn
Use the image as a map.
See the arms as the bridge
linking Oakland to San Francisco.
The roadway off the middle and through
the islands is referred to as the
Serpentine.
Also, Yerba Buena is known, used,
as the original Alcatraz.
hxxp://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe ... 5201_6.pdf
nodon
Brief article in this month's Smithsonian magazine on Angel Island.
hxxp://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/may/da_island.php
boogieman
Imagine this. Can be seen from Angel Island. FB, your finds from Chicago (and Jambone's match), got me thinking. Maybe this is relevant.
Alcatraz Warden's house. prison?
forest_blight
Nice find, boogie. This is definitely worth remembering.
Jambone
FWIW, the nickname for Alcatraz is "The Rock". Lots of rock in image 1.
lyonmain5
Guys
Have you thought literally about the picture and considered that the location of the pearl is in direct relation to the Golden Gate Bridge
ie. If you move south, by the requisite amount, you get to San Bruno (Golden Gate) Cemetary.
This has a MASSIVE circular STEP with A GIANT POLE and , from the air is a White Circle sitting in a variant of a Yin Yang shape.
At the same time, it's Lat/Long are similar to San Francisco, but have the coincidence of being exactly on the 37 Degrees, 38' line (taking into account both numbers identified in the hair)
Have a look on Google earth at 37.38' N 122. 26' W
lyonmain5
Also still next to Highway 1 (Aces High)
And next to SFO international Airport (Sounds from the Sky)
Trohn
And the tie in to "An object of Twain's delight" ?
adoks53
the old guy idea on this... is an object of twain's attention... could it be something other than the river, such as the mississippi queen riverboat(mooring dock), or the area becky got lost in the cave ? just ideas. just havin' fun!!!
frishkie
Well, Twain did lampoon undertakers and cemeteries in SF, so a cemetery could be the object.
hxxp://www.notfrisco.com/colmatales/twain.html
We should note that the book states clearly that the casques are not located in cemeteries. There are a number of cemeteries located near GGP:
hxxp://www.sanfranciscocemeteries.com/maps.html
.
Trohn
This link is for the World's Fair people.
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFNbrhds/ ... sland.html
forest_blight
I'm still in favor of Pioneer Park / Coit Tower for our casque site, but I wonder if anyone has considered the Sutro Bath ruins, just north of the Cliff House in San Francisco. There are thousands of pictures online at flickr.com and webshots.com. It is a place of stunning beauty. Plenty of
stone walls
… there's even a
giant pole
and some
giant steps
. The seal rocks near the Cliff House and Sutro Baths remind one of P1.
ac3100
I have been working on this one for a while.
I have some information that you might be interested in.
I believe the casque is hidden in a specific location on Angel Island.
I will get my facts in order and explain.
ac3100
I hope if someone finds it using the information that I am willing to share, that I receive something fair and equitable.
I guess the first thing that got me interested in this particular one, was the picture...dark and mysterious. Plus it's picture number one, so a good place to start.
If you look at Fox's picture of the asian monument above there is a lot more going on than what Fox explained. Sorry to be painfully obvious but I will point out what I see.
The thing that struck me the most wasn't what's on the monument, but the shape of it. It almost aligns perfectly with the silhouet of the girls shoulders and arms.
The symbols also line up as well with the flower top center as the pearl and the large charcters running up and down the monument match the blue section of the dress as Fox pointed out.
What clinched it for me were the smaller characters of the monument. The two columns match perfectly with the Blue colored cuffs of the picture.
I'm not sure there is anything more than what I explained about the monument and the picture other than I think the authors intent was to make this the main focus of this puzzle. This also aligns with the whole immigration theme.
More to come..
johann
I do not have computer skills, but perhaps someone can position the image on top of the photo of the monument.
forest_blight
Welcome ac3100! I'm still favoring Coit Tower for this one, but does this match what you're saying?
It would be helpful to discover when this monument was erected. Online searches suggest that it is called the "Chinese Immigrants Memorial," if that helps. I could find no reference to its origin.
ac3100
Forest Blight - Yes, that is what I am seeing. I think the similarities from the artwork to the monument are too close to be a coincidence. The shoulder and arm outline is not the same on either side, but I think the fact that they are not uniform, like the monument, is what is important here. It does appear that the left arm/shoulder matches better on the left side of the monument than right.
As far as the timing goes, I researched this during my discovery phase a few months back. This is the general story about how the monument got there:
"How do I get to Angel Island? What will I see there?
Our section Island Information has information on how to visit Angel Island Immigration Station as well as other information about the Island (ferries, campsites, tours, etc). To visit the Station, visitors will need to take a ferry from either Tiburon, San Francisco, or Oakland/Alameda to Angel Island, and then walk about a mile to the station. The Immigration Station site has a few remaining buildings: a power plant, hospital, pump house, mule barn, and barracks (which contain the poetry). The barracks houses a museum and is the only building open to the public by guided tour. A mess hall and two other barracks remain from when the site was used as a World War II prisoner of war processing center. The site also has restrooms, a drinking fountain, a historic fog warning bell once on the wharf's
pier
, and
a monument donated in 1979 by Victor Bergeron, owner of Trader Vic's restaurant in San Francisco
."
This is from:
hxxp://www.aiisf.org/faqs
So the date fits and since it was somewhat new at the time of the writing of the book and was probably a "good fit" and/or too hard to ignore for the author. I understand that he had a freind or relative in the area and probably tipped him off of this.
As far as Coit Tower goes, It is an important part of this puzzle, but I don't beleive that it is the area of interest. I will explain later..
ac3100
Forest Blight - Yes, that is what I am seeing. I think the similarities from the artwork to the monument are too close to be a coincidence. The shoulder and arm outline is not the same on either side, but I think the fact that they are not uniform, like the monument, is what is important here. It does appear that the left arm/shoulder matches better on the left side of the monument than right.
As far as the timing goes, I researched this during my discovery phase a few months back. This is the general story about how the monument got there:
"How do I get to Angel Island? What will I see there?
Our section Island Information has information on how to visit Angel Island Immigration Station as well as other information about the Island (ferries, campsites, tours, etc). To visit the Station, visitors will need to take a ferry from either Tiburon, San Francisco, or Oakland/Alameda to Angel Island, and then walk about a mile to the station. The Immigration Station site has a few remaining buildings: a power plant, hospital, pump house, mule barn, and barracks (which contain the poetry). The barracks houses a museum and is the only building open to the public by guided tour. A mess hall and two other barracks remain from when the site was used as a World War II prisoner of war processing center. The site also has restrooms, a drinking fountain, a historic fog warning bell once on the wharf's pier, and
a monument donated in 1979 by Victor Bergeron, owner of Trader Vic's restaurant in San Francisco
."
This is from:
hxxp://www.aiisf.org/faqs
So the date fits and since it was somewhat new at the time of the writing of the book and was probably a "good fit" and/or too hard to ignore for the author. I understand that he had a freind or relative in the area and probably tipped him off of this.
As far as Coit Tower goes, It is an important part of this puzzle, but I don't beleive that it is the area of interest. I will explain later..
Trohn
I am (as most of us) sold that this image is some where
in San Francisco.
Also, as a nod to Andy, I will repeat the mantra that
the placement of the jewel in the image is paramont
in determining the exact digging spot for the casque.
(from general clues to the specfic location orientation)
An observation that I have been going on with this
image - the arms represent a bridge (crossing)
So either the Golden Gate or the Bay Bridge.
The jewel is situated at the middle of the 'crossing'
What is the view of Alcatraz from Angel Island.
(This would be helpful detrmining if an island could be
the site as opposed to a main land location)
Jambone
ac3100 wrote::
Forest Blight - Yes, that is what I am seeing. I think the similarities from the artwork to the monument are too close to be a coincidence. The shoulder and arm outline is not the same on either side, but I think the fact that they are not uniform, like the monument, is what is important here. It does appear that the left arm/shoulder matches better on the left side of the monument than right.
I would say that in the above picture, the outline of the monument appears to be a mirror image of the silhouette of the shoulders. I think it's actually a good match. Nice work!
boogieman
What verses have we put aside for us to match with San fran? Gonna have to steal from another image?
Nice job acAndy!
ac3100
This as far as I could get with the image at this point. I started to look at the verses and started with verse 7 because that was the one that was linked to the image at the time. There was no mention of New Orleans that I was aware of.
I'm not sure if I should post this here or on the verse 7 page. I will let the moderators guide me on this.
I looked at a lot of the comments about this and took some that make sense to me and added a bit of myown thoughts.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Because of the backwards Gh, I thought that this part was a direct link to the picture. A great start in my opinion. Ghiradehli building San Francisco.
Not far away
High posts are three
Education and Justice
For all to see
There are some refernces to buildings in the downtown SF area, I decided not to pursue this line too much atthis point because it seems very vague to me.
Sounds from the sky
Near ace is high
I believed this to be Highway 1 and possibly the golden gate bridge reference. Possibly SFO international. Again pretty vague.
I think the main purpose of the first part of the poem is to get you to the downtown area of San Francisco. There are a lot of images that reference the area as well.
The part in the girls hair: Golden Gate bridge
The Coit tower in her dress
Golden Gate park The blue/dragon part of the dress.
The coordinates
Possibly Alcratraz Island with the window at the to of the rock formation.
among other things.
I really think that that is all the author is trying to do here. If any of these locations are the location of the Jewel, which one do you pick?
For me this is the next four lines gets you to Angel Island:
Running north, but first across
I think this is a very important clue.
Across what? Based on the picture and the monument on angel Island and having a starting point of downtown SF, it all fits too well to mean that he is talking about water. You must go NORTH across the water to Angel Island. Angel Island happens to be directly North of Downtown SF.
In jewel's direction
This to me simply means that the jewel is North of our starting point. Not in the downtown area
These two lines are cleverly written
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
I think it may have a dual meaning. As you know Mark Twain spent a considerable amount of time living and work in SF as a newspaper reporter. He is also known for his steamship escapades. The steamship might be a refernce to going across the water, maybe not.
The second theory is that the word "attention" has a military signifcance. Here is an article about Mark Twains visit to Angel Island in 1864(Civil war era).
In July of 1864 General Irvin McDowell, Commanding Officer of the Department of the Pacific, made an inspection tour of Angel Island. Accompanying the Army officers and dignitaries on the tour was a young reporter who later would become famous as “Mark Twain,” but at the time, proud of being a reporter, called himself “Clemens, of the Call.” Clemens said the fortifications on Angel Island “were fast growing into formidable proportions.” That same month the Commanding Officer of Camp Reynolds reported that thirteen guns were mounted and there were 7,400 pounds of powder, and 2,600 rounds of shot and shell on hand.
This was from:hxxp://www.militarymuseum.org/CpReynolds.html and has a great write-up of the military history of Angel Island.
Also you can see a redition of Abraham Lincoln head in the rocks looking up as if he was lying on his back. A civil war era reference and a nice tie in.
I am going to wait to tell you what I think about this last section as this gets you to the final resting place of the casque
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept.
Trohn
hxxp://www.sanfranciscoonline.com/maps.html
A nice resource with as much detail as you'd get
without being there.
forest_blight
A translation of the inscription on the monument:
Leaving their home and villages, they crossed the ocean
Only to endure confinement in these barracks;
Conquering frontiers and barriers, they pioneered
a new life by the golden gate.
-- Ngoot P. Chin
hxxp://www.americansall.com/PDFs/02-americans-all/13.9.pdf
ac3100
So I shared with you what I had reasoned up till about the end of June.
I should add that my colleague at work has been involved with this as well. His name is Al Dahlgren.
We were stuck with this photo and the poem.
And then it hit!
We got something that we thought was really interesting. It will probably jump out at you with a little direction.
I am going to see if you can figure it out.
It has to do with symbolism and perspective..
forest_blight
Andy, some folks on this forum have been working this puzzle for 20+ years. If it was going to jump out at us, it would have by now!
I'm all ears.
ac3100
You need both pictures to see it. It should jump out if you don't try too hard.
Clue: Look on the left side of the pictures.
Jambone
I'll take a shot...
The palm tree in the photo of the monument is in roughly the same position as the pedestal/rose in image 1. Also, in the photo, you can see the bay behind the monument, and then land on the other side of the bay; in image 1, you can see a body of water behind the lady, and then land (more rocks) behind the water. From this perspective, Alcatraz is behind the observer.
Trying to work more with this perspective...
The immigration station is on the NNE side of Angel Island (see the map at
hxxp://www.the4cs.com/~corin/photos/2004/genodix/2004071011080.html
). Alcatraz, which has the warden's tower, which seems to match nicely with the arched window in the rocks in image1, is SSW of Angel Island. So if an observer is on Angel Island at the Chinese immigration monument, and they can see the Warden's tower in the background, then they must be facing SSW, which means they have their back to the water. For things to line up as in image 1, the observer would be standing
behind
the monument, which would be consistent with the woman's silhouette being the mirror image of the outline of the monument. But, all of this is contrary to the paragraph above.
bclews
I'll carry that thought a little further...
The clock says "6:00" which can mean "behind you". Looking behind her we see land, then water, then land, then water, then land. The middle "land" has the window/door with bars on it. Alcatraz?
Here's a stretch -- the mountains just above her shoulders COULD be angel wings. (Hey, I said it was a stretch.)
(Thanks, Jambone. Your edit made my post redundant.
)
forest_blight
Some time ago I mentioned the uncanny resemblance between the background of this image and that of Leonardo's paintings "Madonna of the Rocks" and "Virgin of the Rocks." A nickname for Alcatraz is "The Rock." I wonder if this was an intentional visual pun on the part of JJP...
ac3100
Great one Forest. Have you ever done an overlay with the Madonna of the Rocks to this painting? Both frames are almost identical.
To the rest, you got most of it! But not the most important part!
Not sure about the Alcatraz part or at least putting a lot of weight into it.
Does anyone know about the "Angel" of Angel island?
forest_blight
An overlay wouldn't match up well. But just visually comparing them, it is hard not to see the resemblance in the backgrounds. Water on the left, weird rocks protruding everywhere and suspended in space, a woman in the middle, jewel at her throat... two paintings called "...of the
Rocks
" when Alcatraz is called "The Rock" (the barred window may be symbolic of a prison). Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.
ac3100
I
will have to disagree that they don't match up well.
Look at image 1. Notice how there is a line running through it? It goes through where her elbows are. That is where the bottom
of
the madonna
of
the rocks painting would go.
ac3100
I will have to disagree that they don't match up well.
Look at image 1. Notice how there is a line running through it? It goes through where her elbows are. That is where the bottom of the madonna of the rocks painting would go.
ac3100
I
tried lining them up and did find some simalarities as far as rock formations go.
I
'm not sure if there is more to this or not but it seems to be too much
of
a coincidence.
ac3100
I tried lining them up and did find some simalarities as far as rock formations go.
I'm not sure if there is more to this or not but it seems to be too much of a coincidence.
Trohn
Any found connections to the "Many Moons"
I
found a link (probably forced) to poems written
on the Immigration Station Walls referencing
'many moons' and 'full moons' written by the
Japanese detainees.
Trohn
Any found connections to the "Many Moons"
I found a link (probably forced) to poems written
on the Immigration Station Walls referencing
'many moons' and 'full moons' written by the
Japanese detainees.
ac3100
Did not find any connections to the 11 moons.
Went down the Space program route and asian route.
The only thing
I
came up with is that it is an important chinese symbol.
Jambone, you left one thing out from your observation!
ac3100
Did not find any connections to the 11 moons.
Went down the Space program route and asian route.
The only thing I came up with is that it is an important chinese symbol.
Jambone, you left one thing out from your observation!
forest_blight
If you're referring to the palm tree trunk resembling the table leg,
I
'm not sure
I
buy it. It is not a close match, and one would have to stand exactly where the photographer was standing.
forest_blight
If you're referring to the palm tree trunk resembling the table leg, I'm not sure I buy it. It is not a close match, and one would have to stand exactly where the photographer was standing.
Trohn
The table leg always made me think of "Candlestick"
Trohn
The table leg always made me think
of
"Candlestick"
Jambone
ac3100 wrote::
Jambone, you left one thing out from your observation!
Sorry, I can't seem to figure it out.
Jambone
ac3100 wrote::
Jambone, you left one thing out from your observation!
Sorry,
I
can't seem to figure it out.
ac3100
What about the object next to it.
Jambone
Next to what? The table leg? There ain't much there...
Next to the rose is the clock with the bell on top, but it's not much of a match for the bell down by the shore. I'm stumped.
Jambone
Next to what? The table leg? There ain't much there...
Next to the rose is the clock with the bell on top, but it's not much
of
a match for the bell down by the shore.
I
'm stumped.
Jambone
Okay, so while I was staring at this image, I found the numbers 37 and 38 in the lady's hair. Angel Island is at approximately 37 degrees 51 minutes north latitude - I scanned through this thread and didn't see that these had been documented already - my apologies if I'm wrong. The 37 is to the left of her neck, and the 38 is to the right of her face.
Jambone
Okay, so while
I
was staring at this image,
I
found the numbers 37 and 38 in the lady's hair. Angel Island is at approximately 37 degrees 51 minutes north latitude -
I
scanned through this thread and didn't see that these had been documented already - my apologies if
I
'm wrong. The 37 is to the left
of
her neck, and the 38 is to the right
of
her face.
Jambone
Okay, so while I was staring at this image, I found the numbers 37 and 38 in the lady's hair.
Angel
Island is at approximately 37 degrees 51 minutes north latitude - I scanned through this thread and didn't see that these had been documented already - my apologies if I'm wrong. The 37 is to the left of her neck, and the 38 is to the right of her face.
ac3100
Sorry
I
guess
I
wasn't very clear.
Compare the Girl, rose and the clock to
The Monument, tree and the billboard.
The billboard is the object directly next to the tree
ac3100
Sorry I guess I wasn't very clear.
Compare the Girl, rose and the clock to
The Monument, tree and the billboard.
The billboard is the object directly next to the tree
bclews
Forgive me if this has been mentioned --
Here's a picture of Ocean Beach at the end of GG park.
hxxp://www.inetours.com/images/Snglimgs/TotemBeach.jpg
bclews
Forgive me if this has been mentioned --
Here's a picture
of
Ocean Beach at the end
of
GG park.
hxxp://www.inetours.com/images/Snglimgs/TotemBeach.jpg
forest_blight
Unknown:
I
scanned through this thread and didn't see that these had been documented already
We've had it in the "What has been found" thread for awhile, but it is interesting that the numbers never made it to this thread. With the 37, 38, 122, and 123 all visible in this pic, there is pretty much zero doubt that the casque is in the San Francisco area.
forest_blight
Unknown:
I scanned through this thread and didn't see that these had been documented already
We've had it in the "What has been found" thread for awhile, but it is interesting that the numbers never made it to this thread. With the 37, 38, 122, and 123 all visible in this pic, there is pretty much zero doubt that the casque is in the San Francisco area.
eljayo
Just lucubrating...
Lady seems to be pointing a symbol in the monument... Or maybe is pointing us the burial site?
El Jayo
ac3100
When The picture below and the painting lined up with the:
monument, tree and billboard to the
womans outline, rose and clock
Eljayo...Good observation. However I am going to contend that you actually have to flip the girl around to match the monument properly from this vantage point. By doing that, she is actually pointing at the rose and the clock. You cannot flip the rose and the clock because it has the water in the background
I got pretty excited.
It was time to take the next step.
Reviewing the last part of the the poem which reads:
Giant Pole
Giant Step
To the place
The casque is kept.
I started to think my connections of the picture to the image might be correct!
Before I had been looking for pictures on
Angel
Island for Flag poles. The thing that bothered me though was the giant step part. How big is a giant step? The only way that could make sense is that it would have to be in the image.
Then it hit me. Could the "Giant pole" in this case be the palm tree?
The Billboard is postioned another 15ft behind the tree.. and you have to cross a 10 ft wide paved trail to get to it.
Could the "Giant step" be a figurative statement that you must step over the paved trail?
Since I couldn't go there, I decided to get in contact with the Park Service.
I got in touch with the Park Superintedant of
Angel
Island. This is no joke ...Dave Matthews.
I told him about the treasure hunt and that I thought there was something buried in the park. I sent him the picture and the peom and we discussed what I thought was a pretty good solution.
The solution being that I thought the casque was buried underneath the billboard.
I asked him about the billboard and he said:
"it's a billboard that has some information about park events and information about the island.
Year's ago there used to be a Fire Hose on the back of it"
:o
My question to everyone is: What is the object holding up the table in the image?
I think, and it's been mentioned before, it's a fire hose nozzle.
Here are the pictures again:
ac3100
When The picture below and the painting lined up with the:
monument, tree and billboard to the
womans outline, rose and clock
Eljayo...Good observation. However
I
am going to contend that you actually have to flip the girl around to match the monument properly from this vantage point. By doing that, she is actually pointing at the rose and the clock. You cannot flip the rose and the clock because it has the water in the background
I
got pretty excited.
It was time to take the next step.
Reviewing the last part
of
the the poem which reads:
Giant Pole
Giant Step
To the place
The casque is kept.
I
started to think my connections
of
the picture to the image might be correct!
Before
I
had been looking for pictures on Angel Island for Flag poles. The thing that bothered me though was the giant step part. How big is a giant step? The only way that could make sense is that it would have to be in the image.
Then it hit me. Could the "Giant pole" in this case be the palm tree?
The Billboard is postioned another 15ft behind the tree.. and you have to cross a 10 ft wide paved trail to get to it.
Could the "Giant step" be a figurative statement that you must step over the paved trail?
Since
I
couldn't go there,
I
decided to get in contact with the Park Service.
I
got in touch with the Park Superintedant
of
Angel Island. This is no joke ...Dave Matthews.
I
told him about the treasure hunt and that
I
thought there was something buried in the park.
I
sent him the picture and the peom and we discussed what
I
thought was a pretty good solution.
The solution being that
I
thought the casque was buried underneath the billboard.
I
asked him about the billboard and he said:
"it's a billboard that has some information about park events and information about the island.
Year's ago there used to be a Fire Hose on the back
of
it"
:o
My question to everyone is: What is the object holding up the table in the image?
I
think, and it's been mentioned before, it's a fire hose nozzle.
Here are the pictures again:
ac3100
When The picture below and the painting lined up with the:
monument, tree and billboard to the
womans outline, rose and clock
Eljayo...Good observation. However I am going to contend that you actually have to flip the girl around to match the monument properly from this vantage point. By doing that, she is actually pointing at the rose and the clock. You cannot flip the rose and the clock because it has the water in the background
I got pretty excited.
It was time to take the next step.
Reviewing the last part of the the poem which reads:
Giant Pole
Giant Step
To the place
The casque is kept.
I started to think my connections of the picture to the image might be correct!
Before I had been looking for pictures on Angel Island for Flag poles. The thing that bothered me though was the giant step part. How big is a giant step? The only way that could make sense is that it would have to be in the image.
Then it hit me. Could the "Giant pole" in this case be the palm tree?
The Billboard is postioned another 15ft behind the tree.. and you have to cross a 10 ft wide paved trail to get to it.
Could the "Giant step" be a figurative statement that you must step over the paved trail?
Since I couldn't go there, I decided to get in contact with the Park Service.
I got in touch with the Park Superintedant of Angel Island. This is no joke ...Dave Matthews.
I told him about the treasure hunt and that I thought there was something buried in the park. I sent him the picture and the peom and we discussed what I thought was a pretty good solution.
The solution being that I thought the casque was buried underneath the billboard.
I asked him about the billboard and he said:
"it's a billboard that has some information about park events and information about the island.
Year's ago there used to be a Fire Hose on the back of it"
:o
My question to everyone is: What is the object holding up the table in the image?
I think, and it's been mentioned before, it's a fire hose nozzle.
Here are the pictures again:
Trohn
Please note the following:
hxxp://www.parks.ca.gov/lat_long_map/de ... lvl_id=105
You can not see the 'GH' from Angel Island.
ac3100
Have you not followed the logic to my solution?
ac3100
If you are thinking of going there to dig. Don't.
You have to get permission first. I tried. The park superintendent informed me a couple months ago that that area is under construction and is totally roped off.
They are actually moving the monument to a new location and reconstructing the immigration station that burnt down decades ago.
eljayo
Things to think:
-Could 'Gh' be there for tell us the image is a mirror?
There is some things pointing us to SF: 'Gh', Coit tower (with shape as fire hose -> object holding up the table), SF bay, Golden Gate, and more, but this monument seem as pointing us the burial site (a match with lady shape).
May be is needed more work with verses to complete the idea...
-In google: define: pole -> a square rod (16,5ft) of land , i,e -> 272 ft
2
then, monument is in a pole?
Giant step -> leaping from square border to wall in lady's finger directions?
Just some ideas to share and discuss...
It's time that another casque see the sun's light!!!
eljayo
ac3100 wrote::
If you are thinking of going there to dig. Don't.
You have to get permission first. I tried. The park superintendent informed me a couple months ago that that area is under construction and is totally roped off.
They are actually moving the monument to a new location and reconstructing the immigration station that burnt down decades ago.
bad news!!!
Trohn
ac3100 wrote::
Have you not followed the logic to my solution?
Yep, I have. Just do not think that is the location.
Photo of the sign:
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
A closer view, with something interesting in the foreground
(maybe too recent an addition)
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
I agree that this figure is a mirror image of the casque site
(where in SF that would be?)
I think that with the orientation of 'Alcatraz', the casque site would
be to the south.
Angel Island may be the mass behind the Alcatraz portion.
(Under the many moons)
I see the China woman standing on a flat shoreline,
a small channel of water, Alcatraz, and then a larger stretch of
water, and another rocky island.
Here is the view from Aquatic Park:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hist ... c_Park.jpg
In your solve, with the Immigration Station, you disregard
the serpent/dragon.
Jambone
Trohn, I'd love to see the pics you provided links for, but I don't think the links are working properly (could be user error on my part) - I just get the main page for the Gh Square Interactive Picture Tour. Can you get some screen captures of those pics or something?
Trohn
I will try and repost the Ghirdelli Squ images....sorry about the tour site.
I have found something previously unmentioned that struck a thought..
On the right hand side, under the pointing finger, is a 'ying/yang' symbol,
the representation of the good/bad struggle of the Zen.
With that.. check out the Golden Gate park...
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFNbrhds/ ... arden.html
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFLndmrkVws/GGP_Map.html
If we take the woman to represent the Japanese Tea Garden,
then the Rose Table would be the Rose garden to the left
and the Apron would be the map of the Golden Gate Park itself,
which has already been examined.
The arms would represent 'Cross Over Drive'
Wonder if we could then match up a verse....
Trohn
Check out the 'So Pavement' of the Tea Garden and
see if it would give one the idea of scales for the dragon....
Trohn
And check out what is between the Rose garden and the Tea Garden..
hxxp://www.mistersf.com/high/index.html?highggprose.htm
A sundial. This view is not exact (but close)
Another side view may be our table leg.
Click on the three locations and check our their prximity
as represented on the top map.
ac3100
Trying Image 1 with verse 7 may be right....or may not be.
A strong argument could be made for verse #6.
There are parts that match up well.
This talks about the cruel treatment of the asian immigrants to angel island. And the things you would experience here.
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
Stand and listen to the birds
Hear the cool, clear song of water
Where law defended
Especially this part because this describes the billboard structure and the palm tree with white buildings and sand in the area
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand.
Parts that I have no idea if there is a match or not.
Harken to the words:
Freedom at the birth of a century
Or May 1913
This has a possible Abraham Lincoln connection as These are the Son and Granddaughter of John Wilkes Booth. The person who assasinated Abraham Lincoln.
If you look directly above the rose, the rock appears to be a rendition of Abraham Lincoln as if he is lying down looking up.
Edwin and Edwina named after him
Not sure about this line
Or on the eighth a scene
Trohn
I have been linking Image 1 with Verse 10...
and how about this start of the connection
to the Japense Tea Garden....
hxxp://terragalleria.com/pictures-subje ... a9336.html
"In the shadow
of the Grey Giant
Find the arm that
Extends over the slender path"
Trohn
Here is a link for many sundials....
hxxp://www.sundials.org/registry/dials_al_la.htm
At least four in Golden gate Park..
none look close enough to the table,
esp. not the one in Japanese Tea Garden...
have a look.
fox
Nice to see that my C.I.M. has come to the forefront again. I have always thought that it fit rather nicely with the shape of our lady. Could we be trying to hard with "a giant step"? Wouldnt you consider it to be a giant step in your life immigrating to another country? Just a thought.
Now, just when I starting getting comfortable with the tie ins to Angel Island, Trohn leads me right back to the very logical and much discussed GGP.
Arrrggh
Would have to agree whole heartedly that this P is most definitely SF....lets look at what we have again. The "theme" for our P is definitely Chinese, Japanese, Asian of some sort. The Cleveland P was a greek theme and was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens...which leads me to believe that both Angel Island & the Tea Garden of GGP are very likely hiding a casque. What do we have that would be definite confirmers that we have not identified yet?
- 11 Moons
- that dang table leg (could the top circular part represent something as well...perhaps a round
fountain
nearby?)
- the rose...there was discussion long ago that there appeared to be a woman or some figure hidden w/in the petals, can anyone blow it up big enough and clear enough to tell?
- the window. still think that a barred window will be very nearby the casque for some reason.
Thinking the moons and the table leg will pretty much solidify our site.
fox
Nice to see that my C.I.M. has come to the forefront again. I have always thought that it fit rather nicely with the shape of our lady. Could we be trying to hard with "a giant step"? Wouldnt you consider it to be a giant step in your life immigrating to another country? Just a thought.
Now, just when I starting getting comfortable with the tie ins to Angel Island, Trohn leads me right back to the very logical and much discussed GGP.
Arrrggh
Would have to agree whole heartedly that this P is most definitely SF....lets look at what we have again. The "theme" for our P is definitely Chinese, Japanese, Asian of some sort. The Cleveland P was a greek theme and was found in the Greek Cultural Gardens...which leads me to believe that both Angel Island & the Tea Garden of GGP are very likely hiding a casque. What do we have that would be definite confirmers that we have not identified yet?
- 11 Moons
- that dang table leg (could the top circular part represent something as well...perhaps a round fountain nearby?)
- the rose...there was discussion long ago that there appeared to be a woman or some figure hidden w/in the petals, can anyone blow it up big enough and clear enough to tell?
- the window. still think that a barred window will be very nearby the casque for some reason.
Thinking the moons and the table leg will pretty much solidify our site.
fox
Just a quick comment on the moons w/out anywhere to go with it. The planet Neptune has 11 moons. There is a Neptune St in SF but it is nowhere near GGP. Are there any statues of Neptune or anything else that screams Neptune in the area?
Just more food for thought....
ac3100
I searched pretty hard on the 11 moons.
I don't think it's anything in it's literal sense.
I will say that the thing that has got me the most excited about
Angel
Island is the fact that the billboard used to have a firehose on it according to the park superintendant.
He said that it was taken off about 10-15 years ago.
I have seen it posted... and I agree that the table leg does resemble a fire hose nozzle.
It would be a great fit!
ac3100
I searched pretty hard on the 11 moons.
I don't think it's anything in it's literal sense.
I will say that the thing that has got me the most excited about Angel Island is the fact that the billboard used to have a firehose on it according to the park superintendant.
He said that it was taken off about 10-15 years ago.
I have seen it posted... and I agree that the table leg does resemble a fire hose nozzle.
It would be a great fit!
forest_blight
Neat idea bout Neptune, Fox, but only 2 of Neptune's moons had been discovered by 1981.
As for Chinese links, there is an old Chinese restaurant called "Mandarin" in Ghirardelli Square. "Gh," remember, appears in the image as one would see it in the G. Square sign from the south,
not
how one would see it from
Angel
Island. Why would it be written backwards if it was meant to be seen from
Angel
Island?
forest_blight
Neat idea bout Neptune, Fox, but only 2 of Neptune's moons had been discovered by 1981.
As for Chinese links, there is an old Chinese restaurant called "Mandarin" in Ghirardelli Square. "Gh," remember, appears in the image as one would see it in the G. Square sign from the south,
not
how one would see it from Angel Island. Why would it be written backwards if it was meant to be seen from Angel Island?
fox
forest_blight wrote::
Neat idea bout Neptune, Fox, but only 2 of Neptune's moons had been discovered by 1981.
argh
Maybe BP knew something the rest of the world didnt...?...
Trohn
In 1981, there was an observatory within
the California Academiy of Sciences which
was just North of the music concourse
(just North of the Tea Garden)
The whole lot of facilities has moved
and a new lunar obsevatory area has been laid out
in recent years.
Trohn
Any speculation on why this is on the border
under the left hand....
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang
Does it confirm Chinese (rather than Japanese)?
Is it something to see at the site?
Hven't see any discussion on it.
Trohn
Here is an out of the box thought on the moons:
the ship (USS Hornet) that was commisioned to
pick up the first moon landing (Apollo 11)
is retired in San Fran Bay
Couldn't find other connections with
Apollo 11 and S.F.
stercox
I ran across an image that was very close to these moons in an old tourist book for the San Fransisco area, but I thought that the area was too far away from our area of interest. The radar guidance installations on the hills above Rodeo Valley look like several white moons all in a row (at least 5 that I can count in the picture). These were built in the 1950s during the nuclear build up, Nike missiles, etc. May not apply--But the picure is intriguing. I will try to post it.
stercox
Also, with in GGP there is a rose garden around 10th ave and Presidio blvd, but within the park itself --just off of
J
ohn F Kennedy Drive. I have looked at this in Google earth and could not draw any conclusions. But the rose with its stem in the shape of a "J" made me think about this area.
eljayo
Trohn wrote::
Yep, I have. Just do not think that is the location.
Photo of the sign:
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
A closer view, with something interesting in the foreground
(maybe too recent an addition)
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
I agree that this figure is a mirror image of the casque site
(where in SF that would be?)
I think that with the orientation of 'Alcatraz', the casque site would
be to the south.
Angel Island may be the mass behind the Alcatraz portion.
(Under the many moons)
I see the China woman standing on a flat shoreline,
a small channel of water, Alcatraz, and then a larger stretch of
water, and another rocky island.
Here is the view from Aquatic Park:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hist ... c_Park.jpg
In your solve, with the Immigration Station, you disregard
the serpent/dragon.
Hi, a little time without read the BB...
With all respect to the point of view of all people working in this hunt years ago, i like to think all possibilities...
and immigration monument is a nice theory!
so,what if the image is not mirrored? I mean, if you stand in north part of monument (and seeing the monument in alcatraz's direction) you can construct the same perspective in the image (including Ghirardelli's letters mirrored, right?)
well, I have nothing to say about serpent/dragon... I'll do my lucubration...
eljayo
Trohn wrote::
Yep, I have. Just do not think that is the location.
Photo of the sign:
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
A closer view, with something interesting in the foreground
(maybe too recent an addition)
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Ghirardelli.htm
I agree that this figure is a mirror image of the casque site
(where in SF that would be?)
I think that with the orientation of 'Alcatraz', the casque site would
be to the south.
Angel
Island may be the mass behind the Alcatraz portion.
(Under the many moons)
I see the China woman standing on a flat shoreline,
a small channel of water, Alcatraz, and then a larger stretch of
water, and another rocky island.
Here is the view from Aquatic Park:
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hist ... c_Park.jpg
In your solve, with the Immigration Station, you disregard
the serpent/dragon.
Hi, a little time without read the BB...
With all respect to the point of view of all people working in this hunt years ago, i like to think all possibilities...
and immigration monument is a nice theory!
so,what if the image is not mirrored? I mean, if you stand in north part of monument (and seeing the monument in alcatraz's direction) you can construct the same perspective in the image (including Ghirardelli's letters mirrored, right?)
well, I have nothing to say about serpent/dragon... I'll do my lucubration...
jimerson
Here are some photos from my first 2 visits to Golden Gate Park: (be patient; slow server)
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/GoldenGate
Hopefully I will be adding more every week
Trohn
Nice photos...
Esp. like the one of FSKey.
forest_blight
jimerson - more lion statues, and yet another floral clock! I'd never heard of those things before, and this hunt has introduced me to 3 floral clocks.
jimerson
I just re-read this thread from the beginning and did not see this mentioned. The photo is one of the lions at the entrance to Sutro Heights.
jimerson
The old DeYoung museum that was demolished in 1990. I am still trying to find a photo with better details of the windows.
Trohn
hxxp://www.nps.gov/archive/goga/clho/suhe/index.htm
fox
jimerson wrote::
I just re-read this thread from the beginning and did not see this mentioned. The photo is one of the lions at the entrance to Sutro Heights.
not sure I see your lion in the rocks...think maybe I can kind of see what may be his outstretched paw but that is it. Can anyone work their magic and outline the supposed lion?
forest_blight
Here are some other - not necessarily better - pics of the DeYoung:
Nice find. It's quite close to the rose garden.
fox
Looking up the DeYoung Museum I found several pix such as the ones below that appear to show massive renovation....let's hope our casque was not too near the museum.
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/telstar/44539265/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/omunene/303403277/
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/pengrin/238819626/
jimerson
The pdf files on this site may be of interest. They show the park history (Golden Gate) with dates and locations of monuments, and much more. Perhaps helpful weeding out the new from the old.
hxxp://www.sfgov.org/site/recpark_page.asp?id=30236
kingwilson
After dwelling on this image for a while ( and a bit of research ) I really believe that this cask is in Golden Gate Park! Wow! I know you all are blown away by this idea!
Really, I have narrowed it down to 3 areas, but I cannot find any really good pictures of these areas to narrow it down anymore than that. Here are my thoughts ( based on the image, I will add some on the Verse section ) on the 3 areas and why. Forgive me if these areas have already been touched on... I have searched through the posts and could not find anything substantial. P.S. Jimmer, this is for you, since you seem to live in the area -- and could post some pics of the areas in question.
I believe that the Dress of the Asian Woman is a map of GG Park. Her Crossed Arms represent "Cross-over Parkway". The Dragon Loop just below her arms represents "Strawberry Hill Island".
My first caveat is, based on the Chicago find we know that the author will put many clues to the GENERAL area within the image ( which there are many for GG Park), but narrowing it down can be more difficult.
Theory 1: Based on the Cleveland find, there is an overall Greek theme. The Centaur was not an actual clue, except to lead you to a Grecian Garden. I believe the same goes for Image 1 and the Japanese Theme, ergo the Japanese Tea Garden.
Theory 2: The Rose and The J the rose makes lead to the Rose Garden (located on JFK Parkway). There are hints in the verse that lead me here- see verse section. (also the Asian woman appears to be pointing her finger in this general vicinity on the map)
Theory 3: Shakespeare Garden. This fits alot of the pieces of the puzzle, but not perfectly.
1) The Door at the top of the image, looks alot like the door/window where the bust of Shakespeare is kept.
2) The reverse 'G' and 'h' at the top of the dress, look to be in the same style as the entrance to the Garden.
3) The Outline in the bottom left of the Image (table?) looks similar to the shape of the sun dial in the park. The image has a pocket watch on top of this ?table? as well (to tell us that it is in fact a sun dial?)
There are a few other clues that I think can be found in the image, but I would love to hear some feedback.
stercox
Unknown:
Theory 2: The Rose and The J the rose makes lead to the Rose Garden (located on JFK Parkway). There are hints in the verse that lead me here- see verse section. (also the Asian woman appears to be pointing her finger in this general vicinity on the map)
I agree--I have had this same thought a little while ago that the "J" rose does refer to JFK Drive and the rose garden--I think that the recurring conclusion that these casques are in "parks", that the GGP map on the dress is prominent, and the depiction of the "J" rose, keep the dig site within GGP. I agree that the Shakespeare Garden, the Rose Garden and the Japanese Tea Garden may need to be really looked into to see if there is a verse that can be tied into this area. The only problem I had with the Japanese Tea Garden is I felt the Theme for P1 was Chinese (Cathay) not Japanese, but this may be a minor discrepancy. Still I believe our dig site to lie within GGP itself.
jimerson
Hello,
Some new photos:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/GoldenGate/Gold ... 12107.html
Check out the map photos. This is from the "pedestal map" at Spreckels lake. These cement pedestals are at various locations throughout the park. The maps currently in the pedestals seem to be from 1990 or newer, since the Kezar stadium area is the same as the 2005 map available at the park for $3. Kezar stadium was rebuilt in 1990. At first I thought the blue color was from the yellow ink fading (trees on my map are green), but there are words on the map that are definitely green. In image 1 the background behind the dragon seems to be very similar to the trees on the map. Also the blue color, although it would be nice to know if the same style was used for the maps in 1981-82.
The Botanical Gardens and the Japanese Tea Garden seem to be very popular areas of the park, also very well maintained. It seems to me it would be extremely difficult to obtain permission to dig in these areas.
johann
There does seem to be a JFK profile in the rocks in the pic (unless I am imagining things).
kingwilson
jimers,
Could you tell me what Shakespeare quotes are on the wall? The "High Posts" reference in the Verse could refer to Posted Quotes?
jimerson
Each plaque has about 10 quotes, and I think there are 6 plaques. I will try to get photos of those next time. Did you see the photo of Sutro Tower?
jimerson
Digging Saturday...
Today I received permission to dig in GGP. I have tentatively scheduled noon this Saturday for digging, depends on the weather (supposed to be raining Sat.) Of course everyone here is invited, although I believe its a 50/50 chance the casque is there. More details coming soon.
stercox
Can't wait for detail. Good luck!!
2fast4u2c
which of the three areas did you decide to dig in?
fox
Good Luck Jimerson....bring another casque to the light of day for us.
jimerson
2fast4u2c wrote::
which of the three areas did you decide to dig in?
You mean kingwilson's 3 areas? None of those. My location is in the northeast area near the Conservatory of Flowers. I found a giant step as someone else said "Look, there's a giant step!", but no giant pole. If anyone is interested in meeting me there, I think the best place would be the northeast entrance of the park, Fulton & Stanyan. Earlier this week I spoke to the person in charge of "Section 1" of the park, which is the northeast. His name is Ramon, and was very interested. He will be there to watch the dig.
adoks53
best of luck...Find That Casque!
forest_blight
Yes indeed! I hope that all my wild theories about Coit Tower were dead wrong and that you unearth that elusive plexiglass cube.
Take pictures!
jimerson
No luck today
It was raining lightly today. Got a few breaks and also some shelter by the trees. I dug under the front hoof. The soil on top was loose, but once I got down to the level of the stone wall, it was very rocky. Took me 3 hours to dig the hole, and I didn't get much lower than the top of the wall. Soil is just too rocky. It would have taken all day to get down 3 feet below the top of that wall. Shovel was only useful for moving dirt and rocks. I had to use a small pickaxe to break up the rocky soil. Lots of sparks flying. After expanding the hole a bit I saw a piece of rebar sticking out horizontally on the left side of the hole. Dug further in that direction but found nothing. Rebar was about 15" long. The cliff that the horse is on is eroding and falling down on top of the stone wall. It might have been much lower in 1982. I need to get some time to speak with Ramon, who is in charge of that area. He has worked there since 1974, so I hope he has lots of ideas.
fox
thanks for the update jimerson...one question...
why did you choose that horse? what in either the P or V lead you to Mr. Equine?
shecrab
I've spent a lot of time trying to catch up to the research done on this image and the pairing of it with the verse you've used, but I think this may be incorrect. I notice that you've dug in GG park a couple of times with no result. Perhaps the verse paired with Image 1 ought to be VErse 9 instead. To wit:
The latitude and longitude coordinates are 38N and 122W. These led me right to a very odd place--
not
Golden Gate park, as has been proposed--but actually, somewhat close by there--on Suisun Bay--the Point Edith State Waterfowl refuge.
Other markers:
It's a salt marsh--a tidewater (First chapter written in water)
And it's a park (public, accessible)
And it contains a bay called "HONKERS BAY" (you can still hear the honking)
And it's a waterfowl refuge (geese, ducks)
And it's near the Concord Naval weapons station (near men of wind rose--wind rose=compass=sailing; crossed arms of figure, crossed arms=weapons)
and it's also within sight of Alcatraz (the jail window in the rock above her head)
And the waterway through the place looks pretty much like the dragon curled on her robe
And there is a land configuration that is almost identical to the lake pictured in the image at left--in the rocks
And it is
near
the Golden Gate bridge (crossed arms--look vaguely bridge-like)
And it's near the Ghost Fleet (GHost=
GH
-- the flotilla of ships from WWII in the Pacific---the
Japanese
--war (figure looks Oriental)
And the area is a marsh so it has "tall grass"
Shell (gas company nearby)
Limestone (base of Siusun bay)
Silver (color of Naval ships)
Salt (water--salt water marsh)
Stars move by day (stars=admirals=Navy)
Sails pass by at night (it's on the bay)
Years pass (the ghost fleet is mothballed)
Anyway, this is what I came up with. Since I can't find any decent pictures of the place, it's hard to figure out if the "bending branches" and the green picket fence are anywhere nearby--A green picket fence is pretty ubiquitous, and so are bending branches...but these may be special.
I haven't seen anyone pair these up yet so I thought I'd throw it out there.
ck
jimerson
Actually this was my first dig. Many visits & photos, but first time digging. The thing that convinces me the location is inside GGP is the background behind the dragon in image 1. It looks very much like the tree background on the pedestal maps and on the $3 park maps. The blue color is only on the pedestal maps, the $3 map tree color is green. It seems to be too much detail if the casque is outside the park.
catherwood
I have reason to be in San Francisco today, in Golden Gate Park as a matter of fact. While there, I hope to have time to wander around with an eye out for new inspiration to this old, old riddle. I do believe our biggest hurdle is that the features of the park have changed over time -- the giant totem pole statue being the most obvious example. I am having my breakfast now and reading this thread from the beginning, amazed that it was started almost three years ago. Yes, I will take the verses with me today, hoping that something new will fall into place, but I won't be bringing any digging tools. It's not that kind of trip for me (this time).
And Happy Chinese New Year! The first day of the Year of the Golden Pig would be a most auspicious time to find the final clue to our Chinese themed treasure.
Magesmiley
A question for those who have done some digging in San Francisco - how tough is it to get the permission and how long does it take? I'm going to be visiting SF in July for a few days and may take a crack at my pet theories.
shecrab
Unknown:
Salt (water--salpregnant fisher marsh)
Why was this phrase in my post changed from
salt WATER marsh
to sal
pregnant fisher
marsh?
This is odd---can someone explain it?
ck
Mark Parry
It is the language filter filtering out the work T W A T sorry it does offend some people.
Mark
boogieman
Mark Parry wrote::
It is the language filter filtering out the work T W A T sorry it does offend some people.
Mark
hah HAH. Hahahahahahahahahahhha. What would happen if I typed
wimp
cat?
shecrab
Mark Parry wrote::
It is the language filter filtering out the work T W A T sorry it does offend some people.
Mark
I can see why some might find the word T**t offensive. I cannot understand how the word Salt WATER can be offensive. Though I am aware that computers are only as smart as their programmers. GIGO, as they say.
Sheesh.
c
fox
Mark Parry wrote::
It is the language filter filtering out the work T W A T sorry it does offend some people.
Mark
that is hilarious... and to think, I had already made flight reservations for a quick visit to the Sal Pregnant Fish Marsh.
forest_blight
Too funny, fox.
shecrab
So T^^@ means "pregnant fish?"
ck
jimerson
Fox, apologies for being so brief earlier. Here is more about how I get to "Mr. Equine".
My theory so far...
Image 1 is a map on 2 levels. First an aerial representation of Golden Gate Park. Second, a map of the horseshoe pits as viewed facing east.
The horseshoe pits are near the northeast corner of the park. Easily accessible by car, you can park right at the stairway.
In the image the dragon's tail represents the stairway leading up to the horseshoe pits. The lamp post is on the left side of the stairs. While the outline in the image is not an exact match to the lamp post in the photo, I believe it just indicates it is on the left side.
The dragon's head represents the horse's head. Both heads face to the left.
The pearl could represent the sun or the moon, as both would rise above the horse (east).
The blocks on the sleeves represent the sand pits, and the crossed arms and pointing fingers represent the game of horseshoes, throwing from one side to the other, then back.
Directly under the hands are the top of the dragons wings, resembling horseshoes.
I believe there are 2 possible locations for the casque: in one of the sand pits or under the horse relief. If it is in the sand pits, I am not sure how to determine which one to dig. I tried to probe in the sand with a 4' long thin metal rod, but I could only get it down about 3". The sand is compacted quite a lot. I have dug at the front hoof of the horse, very rocky soil, perhaps I just didn't dig deep enough.
See the horseshoe pits photos here:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/GoldenGate/Hors ... html
(slow server)
p.s. Scunthorpe
fox
ahh, thanks Jimerson..
what the heck is Sidiothorpe?
jimerson
fox wrote::
what the heck is Sidiothorpe?
Language filter replaced "see you in tea" with idiot
jimerson
Magesmiley wrote::
A question for those who have done some digging in San Francisco - how tough is it to get the permission and how long does it take? I'm going to be visiting SF in July for a few days and may take a crack at my pet theories.
Regarding Golden Gate Park, it depends where in the park you want to dig. Lots of places are neglected, and it is easy to get permission for those areas. Forget about places like Japanese Tea Garden and Botanical Gardens. I called the main offices at McLaren Lodge and was directed to the appropriate person, who called me back the next day. He was very friendly and helpful. The park is divided into several sections for management purposes, and different supervisors for each section.
jimerson
Digging Saturday, again...
Well I am digging one more hole at GGP this Saturday, anyone who wants to join me can meet at the HorseShoe Pits about 12:00 noon.
jimerson
Strike two
Saturday I dug up one of the sand pits. Very easy to dig. The sand extended a bit less than 2 feet deep. At the bottom is very hard rocky clay. I chose the fourth pit back from the horse on the south side, since that is where the finger points on the right side of the image. I counted the sand pits, there are 31 on each side. I noticed that the fingers on the right side could indicate the number 31; 3 fingers then a gap then 1 finger.
Other information of interest is there was recently a volunteer crew that refurbished the pits. I am trying to contact them to ask if they found anything unusual. Also there was a "Horseshoe Club" building that burned down in 1982. I am trying to get some photos.
Trohn
Keep at it jmerson...
Remember the motto "Carpe dig'um"
What verse are you using to guide you within
GGP? If there were four pits to choose,
the verse would help you select the proper one.
I believe (although I am in the minority)
that the placement of the jewel in the image
is key to the burial site.
Good luck on the other coast.
jimerson
Trohn wrote::
Remember the motto "Carpe dig'um"
Trohn wrote::
What verse are you using to guide you within
Trohn wrote::
GGP? If there were four pits to choose,
Trohn wrote::
the verse would help you select the proper one.
Verse 7
Unfortunately there are 62 pits!
IIRC the 2 casques that have been found, the specific location was in the verse. If this is true for verse 7 / image 1, then I believe that "Giant step to where the casque is kept" would indicate under the horse's hoof. But there are 2 hooves that can be considered to be taking a step. I already dug under the front, but perhaps I gave up too soon. The soil is so dense and rocky it seems to me it would have taken hours for someone to dig deep enough to bury the casque.
Trohn
Wish I could help in this line of thought,
but I have firmly linked verse 7 with image 7.
(New Orleans)
I do believe that GGP is a good spot to search.
Can you tell me if there happens to be a
staue of Edwin Forrest (or Edwin Booth) somewhere
within the confines?
jimerson
Trohn wrote::
Can you tell me if there happens to be a
staue of Edwin Forrest (or Edwin Booth) somewhere
within the confines?
I do not believe there is any monument or statue of either of those persons. I have not seen one in my visits, nor can I find any reference in any of the documents here:
hxxp://www.sfgov.org/site/recpark_page.asp?id=30236
Trohn
Something like this... just if it fits...
hxxp://www.sfmuseum.org/hist/theatres.html
maltedfalcon
Trohn
No offense, and I realize that unless somebody finds a casque it's a pointless argument.
but Verse 7 fits San Francisco's GG park much better then NO
every line fits a journey down golden Gate parks Kennedy drive. and in picture 1 is a prominnent feature of Kennedy.
Also the verse includes 2 puns that unless you are in GGpark arent obvious.
The only two things that need to be resolved is Giant Step and Twain's attention
lastly the image contains a view of what you see from where the casque is buried - this has yet to be identified in the image
but it seems Jimerson is very near to accomplishing this.
Jimerson, maybe we should get together and compare notes Im near sacramento
Matt Sparks
Maltedfalcon
Magesmiley
I'm kind of in a bit of a quandary right now.
I've got a location in San Francisco where I can match up nearly all of verse 7. I've also gotten a relative who was visiting the city to get some pictures of the area for me as well. I know what the moons in the picture are and I've got a match for the table leg too. So I'm nearly certain that I've got the right area. However... she wasn't looking at the area from the vantage of finding the right spot to dig, just taking some pictures of certain things for me.
And as a result, the one thing from verse 7 I'm not 100% positive I've got right is the pole to start from. I have my suspicions, but without actually going to the area, I can't be certain.
I'm going to be visiting San Francisco in early July for a couple of days and I'd like to dig then. However, I was wondering if there was anyone here local to San Francisco who might be interested in working on this one with me.
Shoot me an email if you're interested please.
jimerson
Magesmiley,
I am planning to visit GGP this weekend. I can get some photos of other locations in SF if you want. Give me some details
Magesmiley
Jimerson, check your messages please.
maltedfalcon
magesmiley Great!
good luck! anything
I
can do to help let me know
Matt Sparks
maltedfalcon
magesmiley Great!
good luck! anything I can do to help let me know
Matt Sparks
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
I
'm kind
of
in a bit
of
a quandary right now.
I
've got a location in San Francisco where
I
can match up nearly all
of
verse 7.
I
've also gotten a relative who was visiting the city to get some pictures
of
the area for me as well.
I
know what the moons in the picture are and
I
've got a match for the table leg too. So
I
'm nearly certain that
I
've got the right area. However... she wasn't looking at the area from the vantage
of
finding the right spot to dig, just taking some pictures
of
certain things for me.
And as a result, the one thing from verse 7
I
'm not 100% positive
I
've got right is the pole to start from.
I
have my suspicions, but without actually going to the area,
I
can't be certain.
I
'm going to be visiting San Francisco in early July for a couple
of
days and
I
'd like to dig then. However,
I
was wondering if there was anyone here local to San Francisco who might be interested in working on this one with me.
Shoot me an email if you're interested please.
So how did the exploring go?
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
I'm kind of in a bit of a quandary right now.
I've got a location in San Francisco where I can match up nearly all of verse 7. I've also gotten a relative who was visiting the city to get some pictures of the area for me as well. I know what the moons in the picture are and I've got a match for the table leg too. So I'm nearly certain that I've got the right area. However... she wasn't looking at the area from the vantage of finding the right spot to dig, just taking some pictures of certain things for me.
And as a result, the one thing from verse 7 I'm not 100% positive I've got right is the pole to start from. I have my suspicions, but without actually going to the area, I can't be certain.
I'm going to be visiting San Francisco in early July for a couple of days and I'd like to dig then. However, I was wondering if there was anyone here local to San Francisco who might be interested in working on this one with me.
Shoot me an email if you're interested please.
So how did the exploring go?
cherbear
hi all,
I
too am still in favor
of
Golden Gate Park for this image and
I
had a few places in mind to check out, but
I
was wondering if anyone knew where people have previously dug so as to not repeat the same digs. From this thread
I
believe the totempole, the horseshoe pits, and the north pole monument have been tried...any other places in GGP?
cherbear
hi all, I too am still in favor of Golden Gate Park for this image and I had a few places in mind to check out, but I was wondering if anyone knew where people have previously dug so as to not repeat the same digs. From this thread I believe the totempole, the horseshoe pits, and the north pole monument have been tried...any other places in GGP?
maltedfalcon
cherbear wrote::
hi all, I too am still in favor of Golden Gate Park for this image and I had a few places in mind to check out, but I was wondering if anyone knew where people have previously dug so as to not repeat the same digs. From this thread I believe the totempole, the horseshoe pits, and the north pole monument have been tried...any other places in GGP?
I dont know of any others where people have actually dug.
maltedfalcon
cherbear wrote::
hi all,
I
too am still in favor
of
Golden Gate Park for this image and
I
had a few places in mind to check out, but
I
was wondering if anyone knew where people have previously dug so as to not repeat the same digs. From this thread
I
believe the totempole, the horseshoe pits, and the north pole monument have been tried...any other places in GGP?
I
dont know
of
any others where people have actually dug.
jwhelms
Hi everyone,
I
'm glad my summer vacation is here. Now
I
can hopefully help out...
I
was doing some searching and although
I
need to actually take a trip to SF soon
I
'm going through photos and articles online.
I
'm also trying to accumulate theories and provide some new twists. That being said...
I
was analyzing the solved puzzles and here is what
I
've noticed they share in common:
1. A State outline in each picture.
2. A representation
of
a fence/wall near the burial site.
3. A representation
of
the entrance
of
the park or specific garden the casque is buried.
4. Appears that at least one lat/long coord is in the image. (maybe other numbers are referencing something else?)
Has anybody been able to locate any
of
these items in Image 1?
Also, the verse doesn't always appear to be step 1-10 to find the treasure.
Of
the 2 solved it looks like 1 had the burial site as the first line and the second was in order from where to start.
Sorry,
I
'm kind
of
rambling and if
I
've posted too many obvious things let me know
jwhelms
Hi everyone, I'm glad my summer vacation is here. Now I can hopefully help out...
I was doing some searching and although I need to actually take a trip to SF soon I'm going through photos and articles online. I'm also trying to accumulate theories and provide some new twists. That being said...
I was analyzing the solved puzzles and here is what I've noticed they share in common:
1. A State outline in each picture.
2. A representation of a fence/wall near the burial site.
3. A representation of the entrance of the park or specific garden the casque is buried.
4. Appears that at least one lat/long coord is in the image. (maybe other numbers are referencing something else?)
Has anybody been able to locate any of these items in Image 1?
Also, the verse doesn't always appear to be step 1-10 to find the treasure. Of the 2 solved it looks like 1 had the burial site as the first line and the second was in order from where to start.
Sorry, I'm kind of rambling and if I've posted too many obvious things let me know
forest_blight
For #1, someone once mentioned that the folded arms resemble California's outline.
For #4, there's a lot. The numbers 37 (left) and 38 (right) can be found in her hair. There are also 38 squares on her cuffs. The roman numerals
I
, II, III and
I
, II, II can be found on her robe. 37, 38, 122, and 123 are the latitudes and longitudes enclosing San Francisco.
forest_blight
For #1, someone once mentioned that the folded arms resemble California's outline.
For #4, there's a lot. The numbers 37 (left) and 38 (right) can be found in her hair. There are also 38 squares on her cuffs. The roman numerals I, II, III and I, II, II can be found on her robe. 37, 38, 122, and 123 are the latitudes and longitudes enclosing San Francisco.
jwhelms
forest_blight wrote::
For #1, someone once mentioned that the folded arms resemble California's outline.
For #4, there's a lot. The numbers 37 (left) and 38 (right) can be found in her hair. There are also 38 squares on her cuffs. The roman numerals
I
, II, III and
I
, II, II can be found on her robe. 37, 38, 122, and 123 are the latitudes and longitudes enclosing San Francisco.
Cool, not completely sold on the arms but
I
can see how they came up with that. Good eye.
...and not to mention the upside down roman numerals for 5, 6, 10 and a 5 or an A on the dress.
I
have read through the forum and
I
believe it has been asked about before but no speculation was made. Especially about the symbols barely readable towards the bottom.
jwhelms
forest_blight wrote::
For #1, someone once mentioned that the folded arms resemble California's outline.
For #4, there's a lot. The numbers 37 (left) and 38 (right) can be found in her hair. There are also 38 squares on her cuffs. The roman numerals I, II, III and I, II, II can be found on her robe. 37, 38, 122, and 123 are the latitudes and longitudes enclosing San Francisco.
Cool, not completely sold on the arms but I can see how they came up with that. Good eye.
...and not to mention the upside down roman numerals for 5, 6, 10 and a 5 or an A on the dress. I have read through the forum and I believe it has been asked about before but no speculation was made. Especially about the symbols barely readable towards the bottom.
Magesmiley
I
was the one who originally suggested the arms.
I
'm not 100% sold on the arms, but
I
am sold on San Francisco (which makes California being in the picture kind
of
moot).
On another note, has anyone else tried out the street view feature over on google? Its only up for a few cities, but San Francisco is one
of
them. You can do a kind
of
walk-around
of
the city streets at ground level, with the ability to do a panoramic view just about anywhere on the streets. Very cool for looking around the city.
hxxp://maps.google.com/help/maps/streetview/index.html
Magesmiley
I was the one who originally suggested the arms. I'm not 100% sold on the arms, but I am sold on San Francisco (which makes California being in the picture kind of moot).
On another note, has anyone else tried out the street view feature over on google? Its only up for a few cities, but San Francisco is one of them. You can do a kind of walk-around of the city streets at ground level, with the ability to do a panoramic view just about anywhere on the streets. Very cool for looking around the city.
hxxp://maps.google.com/help/maps/streetview/index.html
jwhelms
Magesmiley wrote::
I was the one who originally suggested the arms. I'm not 100% sold on the arms, but I am sold on San Francisco (which makes California being in the picture kind of moot).
On another note, has anyone else tried out the street view feature over on google? Its only up for a few cities, but San Francisco is one of them. You can do a kind of walk-around of the city streets at ground level, with the ability to do a panoramic view just about anywhere on the streets. Very cool for looking around the city.
hxxp://maps.google.com/help/maps/streetview/index.html
A friend of mine was telling me about this today. I just did some looking and this could be a very useful tool for images.
jwhelms
Magesmiley wrote::
I
was the one who originally suggested the arms.
I
'm not 100% sold on the arms, but
I
am sold on San Francisco (which makes California being in the picture kind
of
moot).
On another note, has anyone else tried out the street view feature over on google? Its only up for a few cities, but San Francisco is one
of
them. You can do a kind
of
walk-around
of
the city streets at ground level, with the ability to do a panoramic view just about anywhere on the streets. Very cool for looking around the city.
hxxp://maps.google.com/help/maps/streetview/index.html
A friend
of
mine was telling me about this today.
I
just did some looking and this could be a very useful tool for images.
Sonoran
Here are the theories turtle123456 and have developed for Picture 1.
I
have updated
The Secret Wiki
page with a picture that helps explain these theories.
Clock
6 O’clock for the 6th month June.
Rose
Birth flower
for June.
Pearl
Pearl is June
birthstone
and jewel for this picture.
Multiple squares and rectangles
On cuffs and throughout dragon.
I
have no idea what these may represent.
Circle, squares and triangle
I
have no idea what these symbols at the neckline are supposed to represent. If they weren't somewhat prominent it would be easier for me to ignore them.
“G” and “h”
First letters
of
Ghirardelli sign
. Letters are the same shape/ font. Backward direction
of
letters is the same as what can be seen from backside
of
sign.
Window with bars
Bars in window on rock island represent
Alcatraz Island
.
Rock cliffs
"
The Rock
". Alcatraz Island.
37 and 38
Latitudes
122 and 123
Longitudes
Drape
Shape
of
Golden Gate Park.
Rock face
John F. Kennedy Dr.
runs length
of
Golden Gate Park and North side
of
Japanese Tea Garden.
Yin and yang symbol
Chinese/ Asian Theme
Neckline
Shape
of
a
torii
.
Dragon
Japanese theme. There is a
Dragon Hedge
in the
Japanese Tea Garden
.
Lake
Japanese Tea Garden
pond
. Pond seems very similar in shape. The drawing used for Garden maps or the pond itself may have changed a little
of
the years.
Table leg
Leg is the same typical shape as
Tea Garden Lanterns
. There are many lanterns throughout the Garden.
Ten moons
Ten Moons
on Stone Pagoda. There are five moons on each
of
opposite sides.
Largest moon
One large moon represents the Tea Garden’s
Drum
/
Moon Bridge
. Typical
Moon
bridge.
Well those are our best guesses.
I
’m sure some ideas need more work. Please feel free to poke holes in them.
The moons on the Stone Pagoda were one
of
the last clues we solved. We did not find any close up pictures at first. So,
I
always thought the circles on the sides were just circular holes. When we finally got a close up picture we were floored when the picture showed ten
of
the same crescent like moons as in Picture 1.
Sonoran
Here are the theories turtle123456 and have developed for Picture 1. I have updated
The Secret Wiki
page with a picture that helps explain these theories.
Clock
6 O’clock for the 6th month June.
Rose
Birth flower
for June.
Pearl
Pearl is June
birthstone
and jewel for this picture.
Multiple squares and rectangles
On cuffs and throughout dragon. I have no idea what these may represent.
Circle, squares and triangle
I have no idea what these symbols at the neckline are supposed to represent. If they weren't somewhat prominent it would be easier for me to ignore them.
“G” and “h”
First letters of
Ghirardelli sign
. Letters are the same shape/ font. Backward direction of letters is the same as what can be seen from backside of sign.
Window with bars
Bars in window on rock island represent
Alcatraz Island
.
Rock cliffs
"
The Rock
". Alcatraz Island.
37 and 38
Latitudes
122 and 123
Longitudes
Drape
Shape
of Golden Gate Park.
Rock face
John F. Kennedy Dr.
runs length of Golden Gate Park and North side of Japanese Tea Garden.
Yin and yang symbol
Chinese/ Asian Theme
Neckline
Shape
of a
torii
.
Dragon
Japanese theme. There is a
Dragon Hedge
in the
Japanese Tea Garden
.
Lake
Japanese Tea Garden
pond
. Pond seems very similar in shape. The drawing used for Garden maps or the pond itself may have changed a little of the years.
Table leg
Leg is the same typical shape as
Tea Garden Lanterns
. There are many lanterns throughout the Garden.
Ten moons
Ten Moons
on Stone Pagoda. There are five moons on each of opposite sides.
Largest moon
One large moon represents the Tea Garden’s
Drum
/
Moon Bridge
. Typical
Moon
bridge.
Well those are our best guesses. I’m sure some ideas need more work. Please feel free to poke holes in them.
The moons on the Stone Pagoda were one of the last clues we solved. We did not find any close up pictures at first. So, I always thought the circles on the sides were just circular holes. When we finally got a close up picture we were floored when the picture showed ten of the same crescent like moons as in Picture 1.
forest_blight
Thank you for these - very compelling! But I count 11 moons in P1, not 10. Are you not counting the larges one among the 10?
forest_blight
Thank you for these - very compelling! But
I
count 11 moons in P1, not 10. Are you not counting the larges one among the 10?
Sonoran
forest_blight wrote::
Thank you for these - very compelling! But I count 11 moons in P1, not 10. Are you not counting the larges one among the 10?
This confused us for a long time too. We could not find moon number 11 until one day when I called the Garden's Drum Bridge a moon bridge while talking to my wife. She noticed I called it a moon bridge. She had found the final moon in the Garden Drum Bridge. I can't believe we never put the moon bridge together with the moon in the picture. The largest center moon in the picture became the perfect match for the Garden's Drum/ Moon Bridge. We finally had 11 moons!
Sonoran
forest_blight wrote::
Thank you for these - very compelling! But
I
count 11 moons in P1, not 10. Are you not counting the larges one among the 10?
This confused us for a long time too. We could not find moon number 11 until one day when
I
called the Garden's Drum Bridge a moon bridge while talking to my wife. She noticed
I
called it a moon bridge. She had found the final moon in the Garden Drum Bridge.
I
can't believe we never put the moon bridge together with the moon in the picture. The largest center moon in the picture became the perfect match for the Garden's Drum/ Moon Bridge. We finally had 11 moons!
maltedfalcon
I
find your logic very compelling -
I
hope you are correct.
I
looked at The Japanese Tea Garden early after discovering Golden Gate Park in the image.
I
was not able to find a stone lantern that matched the silohuette under the tabletop it more matches a poice call box that is
of
the type that was in the park back then
I
found one last week and took a picture
I
will post it later.
Tried to associate the moons with the moon bridge but never made the connection.
I
Like your moon bridge asscociation but the moon bridge doesnt look paddle wheelish to me at all.
The face could also be Lincoln which is the street just to the south
of
GGpark
The biggest problems
I
have with your solutions are:
The gate -is wooden and not in a stone wall
but mostly
I
cant imagine BP breaking into the Tea Garden in the middle
of
the night
with the hope that the gardeners would not notice a freshly dug hole and not investigate it.
In another verse BP specifically says "get permission to dig out"
if that were the case here
I
would expect him to add that message to the verse with this one too.
So what is the terrain like one pace towad the bridge from the stone pagoda?
Matt Sparks
maltedfalcon
I find your logic very compelling - I hope you are correct. I looked at The Japanese Tea Garden early after discovering Golden Gate Park in the image.
I was not able to find a stone lantern that matched the silohuette under the tabletop it more matches a poice call box that is of the type that was in the park back then
I found one last week and took a picture I will post it later.
Tried to associate the moons with the moon bridge but never made the connection.
I Like your moon bridge asscociation but the moon bridge doesnt look paddle wheelish to me at all.
The face could also be Lincoln which is the street just to the south of GGpark
The biggest problems I have with your solutions are:
The gate -is wooden and not in a stone wall
but mostly I cant imagine BP breaking into the Tea Garden in the middle of the night
with the hope that the gardeners would not notice a freshly dug hole and not investigate it.
In another verse BP specifically says "get permission to dig out"
if that were the case here I would expect him to add that message to the verse with this one too.
So what is the terrain like one pace towad the bridge from the stone pagoda?
Matt Sparks
Sonoran
maltedfalcon wrote::
but mostly I cant imagine BP breaking into the Tea Garden in the middle of the night
with the hope that the gardeners would not notice a freshly dug hole and not investigate it...
...So what is the terrain like one pace towad the bridge from the stone pagoda?
maltedfalcon wrote::
In another verse BP specifically says "get permission to dig out"
if that were the case here I would expect him to add that message to the verse with this one too.
I have wondered about this too. What if some gardener or park worker came across one of the dig spots the day after BP's dig and then started investigating. The best answer I have come up with is BP avoided detection as much as possible by choosing less obvious spots when convenient. I think this concern for detection would have been top in BP's mind.
The terrain from pagoda to bridge has grass and patchy grass with flagstones as stepping-stones for a path. In the Tea Garden case I think BP lifted and set aside one of the flagstones. He dug a hole where the stone was. After he filled the hole replaced the flagstone back on top in the same position it was found. This covered any evidence of digging, no grass was removed.
You definitely need permission to dig at the Tea Garden. But even at city parks we still need to get permission. For the verse that BP said "get permission to dig out", there may be special circumstances. It all depends where BP decided to draw the "get permission" line.
Sonoran
maltedfalcon wrote::
but mostly
I
cant imagine BP breaking into the Tea Garden in the middle
of
the night
with the hope that the gardeners would not notice a freshly dug hole and not investigate it...
...So what is the terrain like one pace towad the bridge from the stone pagoda?
maltedfalcon wrote::
In another verse BP specifically says "get permission to dig out"
if that were the case here
I
would expect him to add that message to the verse with this one too.
I
have wondered about this too. What if some gardener or park worker came across one
of
the dig spots the day after BP's dig and then started investigating. The best answer
I
have come up with is BP avoided detection as much as possible by choosing less obvious spots when convenient.
I
think this concern for detection would have been top in BP's mind.
The terrain from pagoda to bridge has grass and patchy grass with flagstones as stepping-stones for a path. In the Tea Garden case
I
think BP lifted and set aside one
of
the flagstones. He dug a hole where the stone was. After he filled the hole replaced the flagstone back on top in the same position it was found. This covered any evidence
of
digging, no grass was removed.
You definitely need permission to dig at the Tea Garden. But even at city parks we still need to get permission. For the verse that BP said "get permission to dig out", there may be special circumstances. It all depends where BP decided to draw the "get permission" line.
Sonoran
Here are some recent pictures of the path from the pagoda to the asphalt path to the drum bridge.
Sonoran
There is a large sized stone step at the bottom of the path. Could that stone step be the "Giant Step"?
Trohn
Where is the giant pole?
turtle123456
soronan the giant step is an excellant marker for the final resting place, the giant pole is at the top of the hill (the treasure pole)
maltedfalcon
Trohn wrote::
Where is the giant pole?
in this scenario the pole is the finial on top of the stone pagoda at the top of the stairs.
turtle123456
yew that would be the correct pole
fox
1st of all...what in the heck is a Moon Viewing Garden?
now, I have pretty much always been sold on GGP being this casques resting place...thanks in part (if not whole) to maltedfalcon's ideas. Now this whole locating of 10 {+1} moons at the Japanese Tea Garden....wow! What better place to see our P's 11 moons than from the Moon Viewing Garden in the Tea Garden? If those arent our moons on the pagoda...than maybe we are just supposed to find the ideal spot to view the moons. Located throughout the Moon Viewing Garden are these:
I dont have my book handy but is the base of this "thing" similar to our P's table base? It is a pedestal of sorts holding a flower...granted it isnt a rose...but....
also...
maybe we are trying TOOOOOO hard to find our giant step. Tie it in w/ our moons and Moon Viewing Garden brings us back to "That's one small step for (a) man, one giant leap for mankind."
now...for those who have tried to reverse engineer the Grant Park find in Chi-town...was that casque buried in a "garden" or "garden area" of Grant Park? The reason I ask is this: Sir Egg can confirm that his casque was located in the Greek Cultural Garden in Cleveland which goes quite nicely w/ the Greek images of that P. Now we have a P predominantly displaying moons so why not the "Moon Viewing Garden"?
come on guys, lets find this thing already...
fox
not to step on any chocolate lover's toes out there w/ your Gh... but why can't this be our sweet smelling air?
"Garden of Fragrance In the Garden of Fragrance, plants with aromatic foliage—salvia, rosemary, lemon verbena, lavender, and Grecian laurel—grow in crescent-shaped beds built of stones from a 12th century Spanish monastery. This sheltered area, one of the warmest in the Garden, is a favorite with visitors and birds."
look, they even grow in crescent (ah...lovely Luna) shaped beds...
forest_blight
fox - I hope you're not thinking of me when you mentioned chocolate-lover's toes! I'm totally open the idea that the "Gh" is simply meant to tie it to San Francisco, the Ghirardelli sign being a landmark and all. There were a couple of similar things in the Chicago picture - turrets from the Water Tower area that were too far from the X to be site markers. The part in her hair looking like the GG Bridge area must be another city marker rather than a site marker.
The Coit Tower reference is something else altogether, though. If that is really a map of that part of the city in the dragon's scales, it's awfully obscure to be a general reference to San Francisco.
maltedfalcon
I think the font ties it to SF through Gherardelli square's sign
But I think the fact that if you lay the map of golden gate park onto the dress.
the curve of the neckine and the G h fall directly onto the Great Highway, probably are street clues.
In the cleveland picture was a triangle to connect to Euclidian geometry - Euclid ave borders the park
as was the Bell and flower, bell flower ave borders the park...
Congress is a street referenced in the chicago verse...
I think the GH represents the great highway
The lincoln/JFK silouhette refers to the lincoln ave and jfk Blvld
which effectively surrounds GGpark (including the tea garden)
regulus
Giant Step, referring to the moon, one small step for man, one giant step for mankind. PERFECT.
Good one Fox!!!!!!!!!!!
Magesmiley
Ok folks, I know this is short notice, but I'm on vacation and away from the net for the most part. However I just got an ok to dig at my site. So if there's anyone who is interested in joining me, I'll be digging at the Aquatic Park in San Francisco (across from Ghiradelli Square) tomorrow, on the 7th of July, probably around 9 or 10 am.
I'll lay out my rationale on Monday or Tuesday when I get home.
digger7
Good luck to you. And even if you don't find it you got to spend the day digging for buried treasure, how many people can say that.
Have fun,
digger7
maltedfalcon
Good luck
Keeping fingers crossed for you
Cant wait to here your thinkning!
jimerson
Here is my photo album from Aquatic Park, Ghirardelli Square and Hyde Street Pier.
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/AquaticPark.html
maltedfalcon
Jimerson,
Which verse are you working from and what is your logic with the verse.
I certainly see some similarities in you photo, map and the picture
Matt Sparks
jimerson
MageSmiley was using Verse 7. He should be posting his theory soon.
Magesmiley
My apologies for taking so long, I was kind of ill the last few days or so. My adventure digging at the beach by the Aquatic Park was... interesting and one my daughters will surely remember for years.
The first day I was in San Francisco I went up to front desk of the museum that had jurisdiction over the park and asked if it would be ok to go out to the beach and dig a hole, describing that I wanted to dig down about 3-3.5 feet right in front of the steps. The guy at the desk and another lady kind of pondered it and then indicated that it would be ok since its a public beach. I jotted his name down and thanked him.
The next day my family and I headed down to the beach and I proceeded to dig, drawing the occasional interest of passers by. All went well for awhile, with me getting to the point that I had a hole about 3.5 feet deep (at which point I was hitting hard rocks) and around 3.5 feet around. At this point a park policeman stopped me and asked what was going on. I explained and indicated that I had inquired yesterday at the museum's front desk and was told that it would be ok. He indictated that he hadn't been informed and had to do some checking.
To make a long story short, he then proceeded to do a bunch of checking and it turns out that the guy who told me it was ok didn't have the authority to give me permission to dig. Fortunately I had jotted the guys name down, which helped. So, because I did attempt to go through the proper channels and thought I had an ok from someone in the organization, he didn't give me a ticket, but it ended my digging. I had to fill everything in and give up.
The officer was quite nice towards the end and even gave me the name of the proper channel to go through, however as my trip was drawing to a close, I didn't have time to follow up on it.
Several onlookers were quite disappointed that my digging was ended too. One guy even started chanting 'let him dig' and a lady was arguing with the police officer (which wasn't helping things).
So as to my rationale:
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
From the picture: Gh isn't a general SF landmark, its directly visible from the spot I was digging. FURTHERMORE, there is a tree that blocks out all of the letters, except the Gh (I took a picture, but am at work, so I'll have to post it up later). The moons are the balls for the light poles down by the water. The table leg is the ironwork below the balls on the light poles (this is kind of debatable, but look at the outline, I think its pretty close). One of the symbols around the border of the tabard is a profile of one of the speaker towers in the park. The tower at the top is Coit Tower, a well-known SF landmark. There might be more I'm forgetting, but I'm going off of memory here.
From verse 7:
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Not far away
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
High posts are three
- There is a three-masted sailing ship in the harbor of the Aquatic Park
Education and Justice
For all to see
- The Maritime Museum directly adjacent to the Aquatic Park and Alcatraz out in the harbor
Sounds from the sky
- There are two elevated speaker towers for people to address crowds from atop of.
Near ace is high
Running
north, but first across
- The Golden Gate Bridge, which is also visible from parts of the Park
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- In addition to the sailing ship, there is a paddlewheel steamship out in the harbor as well.
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept
- I worked under the assumption that the pole was one of the light poles down near the beach as they seemed to match the table leg pretty well. In addition a few of them were adjacent to some large steps.
So, I worked from the lightpole by the steps down to the beach where one could see Alcatraz, the Golden Gate, the Maritime Museum, one of the Speaker Towers, the three-masted sailing ship, the paddle wheeler, and the Ghiradelli's sign (which as I mentioned had a tree which obstructed all but the Gh). One of the poles met all of the criteria best.
And thus ends my expedition. Here's hoping that someone else can pick things up where I left off and get (the proper) permission to dig some more.
I'll try to remember to post up some pictures when I'm home.
And thanks to Jimerson for doing some preliminary looking for me.
Magesmiley
My apologies for taking so long, I was kind of ill the last few days or so. My adventure digging at the beach by the Aquatic Park was... interesting and one my daughters will surely remember for years.
The first day I was in San Francisco I went up to front desk of the museum that had jurisdiction over the park and asked if it would be ok to go out to the beach and dig a hole, describing that I wanted to dig down about 3-3.5 feet right in front of the steps. The guy at the desk and another lady kind of pondered it and then indicated that it would be ok since its a public beach. I jotted his name down and thanked him.
The next day my family and I headed down to the beach and I proceeded to dig, drawing the occasional interest of passers by. All went well for awhile, with me getting to the point that I had a hole about 3.5 feet deep (at which point I was hitting hard rocks) and around 3.5 feet around. At this point a park policeman stopped me and asked what was going on. I explained and indicated that I had inquired yesterday at the museum's front desk and was told that it would be ok. He indictated that he hadn't been informed and had to do some checking.
To make a long story short, he then proceeded to do a bunch of checking and it turns out that the guy who told me it was ok didn't have the authority to give me permission to dig. Fortunately I had jotted the guys name down, which helped. So, because I did attempt to go through the proper channels and thought I had an ok from someone in the organization, he didn't give me a ticket, but it ended my digging. I had to fill everything in and give up.
The officer was quite nice towards the end and even gave me the name of the proper channel to go through, however as my trip was drawing to a close, I didn't have time to follow up on it.
Several onlookers were quite disappointed that my digging was ended too. One guy even started chanting 'let him dig' and a lady was arguing with the police officer (which wasn't helping things).
So as to my rationale:
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
From the picture: Gh isn't a general SF landmark, its directly visible from the spot I was digging. FURTHERMORE, there is a tree that blocks out all of the letters, except the Gh (I took a picture, but am at work, so I'll have to post it up later). The moons are the balls for the light poles down by the water. The table leg is the ironwork below the balls on the light poles (this is kind of debatable, but look at the outline, I think its pretty close). One of the symbols around the border of the tabard is a profile of one of the speaker towers in the park. The tower at the top is Coit Tower, a well-known SF landmark. There might be more I'm forgetting, but I'm going off of memory here.
From verse 7:
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Not far away
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
High posts are three
- There is a three-masted sailing ship in the harbor of the Aquatic Park
Education and Justice
For all to see
- The Maritime Museum directly adjacent to the Aquatic Park and Alcatraz out in the harbor
Sounds from the sky
- There are two elevated speaker towers for people to address crowds from atop of.
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
- The Golden Gate Bridge, which is also visible from parts of the Park
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- In addition to the sailing ship, there is a paddlewheel steamship out in the harbor as well.
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept
- I worked under the assumption that the pole was one of the light poles down near the beach as they seemed to match the table leg pretty well. In addition a few of them were adjacent to some large steps.
So, I worked from the lightpole by the steps down to the beach where one could see Alcatraz, the Golden Gate, the Maritime Museum, one of the Speaker Towers, the three-masted sailing ship, the paddle wheeler, and the Ghiradelli's sign (which as I mentioned had a tree which obstructed all but the Gh). One of the poles met all of the criteria best.
And thus ends my expedition. Here's hoping that someone else can pick things up where I left off and get (the proper) permission to dig some more.
I'll try to remember to post up some pictures when I'm home.
And thanks to Jimerson for doing some preliminary looking for me.
Trohn
Thanks for relaying your events.
Your logic is good, sorry to see your exploration not
fully sated.
forest_blight
I agree, that's sound reasoning. I look forward to seeing your pictures.
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
Which one?
From the picture: Gh isn't a general SF landmark, its directly visible from the spot I was digging. FURTHERMORE, there is a tree that blocks out all of the letters, except the Gh (I took a picture, but am at work, so I'll have to post it up later). The moons are the balls for the light poles down by the water. The table leg is the ironwork below the balls on the light poles (this is kind of debatable, but look at the outline, I think its pretty close). One of the symbols around the border of the tabard is a profile of one of the speaker towers in the park. The tower at the top is Coit Tower, a well-known SF landmark. There might be more I'm forgetting, but I'm going off of memory here.
Cant wait to see the picture
From verse 7:
At stone wall's door
In your scenario, what is the Stone Walls door?
The air smells sweet "
Cant argue with this, you can get diabetes standing near Ghiradelli's
Not far away
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
High posts are three
- There is a three-masted sailing ship in the harbor of the Aquatic Park
Was that ship here in 1988? I thought it was farther down Fisherman's wharf, but I could be wrong.
Education and Justice
For all to see
- The Maritime Museum directly adjacent to the Aquatic Park and Alcatraz out in the harbor
Sounds from the sky
- There are two elevated speaker towers for people to address crowds from atop of.
Those are speakers? I always wondered!
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
- The Golden Gate Bridge, which is also visible from parts of the Park
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- In addition to the sailing ship, there is a paddlewheel steamship out in the harbor as well.
But it's a side wheel tug, not the kind associated with Mark Twain
Giant pole (
The light poles are'nt Giant, as light poles go their not very big, slender would be a good desription)
Giant step
Im looking for a Giant Step , I see lots of steps but not a giant step.
To the place
The casque is kept
So, I worked from the lightpole by the steps down to the beach where one could see Alcatraz, the Golden Gate, the Maritime Museum, one of the Speaker Towers, the three-masted sailing ship, the paddle wheeler, and the Ghiradelli's sign (which as I mentioned had a tree which obstructed all but the Gh). One of the poles met all of the criteria best.
Mind you , on occasion they move the ships around. Before the Berkely arrived ,the balclutha and the sidewheel tug were on the other side of the pier.
This does have possibilities, but, and here is the bad news, the sand in this area, moves around, depending on the weather and storms, It can be higher lower or at some point even gone,
I remember them bringing sand in once, but that could pre-date the book. If it was buried in the sand at the base of the steps, it could be anywhere.
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
Which one?
From the picture: Gh isn't a general SF landmark, its directly visible from the spot I was digging. FURTHERMORE, there is a tree that blocks out all of the letters, except the Gh (I took a picture, but am at work, so I'll have to post it up later). The moons are the balls for the light poles down by the water. The table leg is the ironwork below the balls on the light poles (this is kind of debatable, but look at the outline, I think its pretty close). One of the symbols around the border of the tabard is a profile of one of the speaker towers in the park. The tower at the top is Coit Tower, a well-known SF landmark. There might be more I'm forgetting, but I'm going off of memory here.
Cant wait to see the picture
From verse 7:
At stone wall's door
In your scenario, what is the Stone Walls door?
The air smells sweet "
Cant argue with this, you can get diabetes standing near Ghiradelli's
Not far away
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
High posts are three
- There is a three-masted sailing ship in the harbor of the Aquatic Park
Was that ship here in 1988? I thought it was farther down Fisherman's wharf, but I could be wrong.
Education and Justice
For all to see
- The Maritime Museum directly adjacent to the Aquatic Park and Alcatraz out in the harbor
Sounds from the sky
- There are two elevated speaker towers for people to address crowds from atop of.
Those are speakers? I always wondered!
Near ace is high
Running
north, but first across
- The Golden Gate Bridge, which is also visible from parts of the Park
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- In addition to the sailing ship, there is a paddlewheel steamship out in the harbor as well.
But it's a side wheel tug, not the kind associated with Mark Twain
Giant pole (
The light poles are'nt Giant, as light poles go their not very big, slender would be a good desription)
Giant step
Im looking for a Giant Step , I see lots of steps but not a giant step.
To the place
The casque is kept
So, I worked from the lightpole by the steps down to the beach where one could see Alcatraz, the Golden Gate, the Maritime Museum, one of the Speaker Towers, the three-masted sailing ship, the paddle wheeler, and the Ghiradelli's sign (which as I mentioned had a tree which obstructed all but the Gh). One of the poles met all of the criteria best.
Mind you , on occasion they move the ships around. Before the Berkely arrived ,the balclutha and the sidewheel tug were on the other side of the pier.
This does have possibilities, but, and here is the bad news, the sand in this area, moves around, depending on the weather and storms, It can be higher lower or at some point even gone,
I remember them bringing sand in once, but that could pre-date the book. If it was buried in the sand at the base of the steps, it could be anywhere.
maltedfalcon
not trying to knock your theory,
Actually I think the education & Justice fit perfectly
The speakers thing is good too.
Highway 1 and GG Bridge is nearby
A while back someone thought the clock face matched a clock on one of the ships out on the pier.
The Gh is good,
Your twain pull is a stretch
Im hoping you can re-work this and find a site in the grass or dirt.
I think if he meant steps he would have said step.
and Giant Pole, tends to me to mean in comparison to another pole.
but all the other light poles are the same size.
jimerson
maltedfalcon wrote::
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
Which one?
This one...
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/Aqu ... mage4.html
Take a "giant" step down from the lamppost to the sand.
Trohn
Any thoughts on why the image is mirrored??
The 'G' and the 'h' being seen facing the wrong way?
maltedfalcon
Yes that would definitely fit giant step,
Magesmiley
Unknown:
In 1954 the San Francisco Maritime Museum purchased Pacific Queen for $25,000. Assisted by donations of cash, materials and labor from the local community, the Museum restored the vessel and returned her original name. The ship was transferred to the National Park Service in 1978, and Balclutha was designated a National Historic Landmark in 1985.
Unknown:
The vessel was donated to the National Park Service in 1979. She is now berthed at Hyde Street Pier.
Still at work here, but quickly...
Stonewall's Door I interpreted to be a reference to Stonewall Jackson and going with the next couple of lines, Ghiradelli's original location in Jackson Square seemed a reasonable match.
According to the website:
So the ship was there.
For the paddle wheel steamship, I was looking at the Eppleton Hall (which admitedly is a tug, but looking at it you think paddlewheel steamship, and not tug). Also from the website:
I originally came across the towers being referenced as speaker towers on a website. Doing a bit of research, they were indeed originally (and still) used for speaking from atop of to address crowds.They're actually just metal towers with a platform at the top.
As far as the giant pole... I took that to be artistic license to make it fit with the other line as we definitely have a giant step here. It is still a good sized pole regardless.
Now, I didn't know that they moved the ships around. If the Eppleton Hall moved significantly in the time since the book was written, it could indeed alter the direction. I dug at the base of the steps in the direction of the Eppleton Hall from the lamp post. I think that the lamp post is probably the right one to start from though.
As far as the sand shifting, that is definitely possible. One thing I was able to tell going downward was that you could see very distinct layers of the sand - there were black layers every so often. that were fairly consistent around the sides of my hole. I doubt that they'd been disturbed in a long time. One big question is how deep - if it was 3 feet down, I doubt that the sand has shifted that much, although it could have. There is a layer of rocks at about 3.5 feet under that beach too, which I think would help stabilize things somewhat.
I am probably not going to be back in the SF area for a good long while (I live near Seattle), so the best I can offer is speculation at this point.
And I don't have any idea on why the Gh is mirrored, unless its intended to disguise the letters somewhat.
Magesmiley
jimerson wrote::
This one...
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/Aqu ... mage4.html
Take a "giant" step down from the lamppost to the sand.
Actually the one I was digging from was the 4th or 5th from the left in this picture:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/AquaticPark-Pages/Image3.html
I'm not 100% sure which due to the angle of the shot.
There are steps down to the beach at that point. It also was the only pole that I could see everything on my theory list. Plus it had the partially concealed Ghiradelli sign too, which quite frankly, clinched me selecting it as "the pole".
I didn't really think of that ledge in the other picture as a step, but its possible. Likewise stonewall's door could be an actual door in a wall. I do think that our pole is one of the ones down on the beach here. The clues fit too well.
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
When was that? I thought Ghiradelli's has been in the same spot since 1863 and jackson square is in the barbary coast area on the other side of town.
Can you explain the significance of the rose, or the lincoln/JFK silouette in the image?
and I would love to see the similarities between the lamp post bottom and the table
jimerson
Here is the top section of one of the lamp posts that run along the beach and pier, they are all the same.
This board seems to have stopped allowing file uploads, here is a link:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/PICT0179.jpg
jimerson
Magesmiley wrote::
Actually the one I was digging from was the 4th or 5th from the left in this picture:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/AquaticPark-Pages/Image3.html
Oh, over there is definitely not a giant step down to the beach. Your giant step is the "giant stairway" or seating area?
The Eureka is a paddlewheel I believe.
jimerson
maltedfalcon wrote::
When was that? I thought Ghiradelli's has been in the same spot since 1863 and jackson square is in the barbary coast area on the other side of town.
Can you explain the significance of the rose, or the lincoln/JFK silouette in the image?
Yea, Jackson Square is over towards the Embarcadero.
If you look at this lamp from Hyde St. Pier upside down, it kinda resembles the rose and stem...
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/AquaticPark/Aqu ... ge164.html
maltedfalcon
OK I have been a firm believer the casque was in Golden Gate Park
but you now have convinced me I was wrong.
It was the lamp posts.
BTW the eppington hall was kept on the other side of the pier in the 80s,
It would have been 20-50 yards to the right of where it is kept now.
That was b4 they had the ferry -
BTW as far as I know you have never been able to upload files or images to this board.
I always had to use embedded links and the pictures are hosted on my home page.
Magesmiley
maltedfalcon wrote::
When was that? I thought Ghiradelli's has been in the same spot since 1863 and jackson square is in the barbary coast area on the other side of town.
Can you explain the significance of the rose, or the lincoln/JFK silouette in the image?
and I would love to see the similarities between the lamp post bottom and the table
Here's a reference for Ghiradelli's.
hxxp://www.verlang.com/sfbay0004ref_19thc_002.html#415-31_jackson
The chocolate factory was originally on Jackson St (and the building is part of the Jackson Square Historic District) before being moved near Fisherman's Wharf.
As far as the rose... I've got no new great ideas. Likewise on the silouette.
slappybuns
my two cents worth after reading this thread, since Twain was mentioned at the end of the verse, which should help pinpoint the exact location:
"Mark Twain" (meaning "Mark number two") was a Mississippi River term: the second mark on the line that measured depth signified two fathoms, or twelve feet—
twelve feet from something? or the number 2?
i didn't recall anyone mentioning that
Sonoran
Here is the solution from
"The Solutions"
post Turtle and I developed.
Image 1
Theme China
Pearl June birthstone
Clock 6:00 for 6th month June
Flower Rose is birth flower for June
37 and 38 Latitudes
122 and 123 Longitudes
"G" and "h" Ghirardelli Chocolate sign
Window with bars Bars for Alcatraz
Rocky Cliffs The "Rock" Alcatraz Island
Clothing drape Shape of Golden Gate Park
Face in rock John F. Kennedy
Yin and Yang symbol Asian theme
Neckline Shape of a Torii
Dragon Japanese theme and Dragon Hedge in Tea Garden
Lake Shape of Japanese Tea Garden pond
Table Leg Tea Garden Lanterns
Moons 10 on pagoda and 1 for "moon" bridge
Hair part Golden Gate Bridge south shoreline
forest_blight
What evidence do you have that the face outline (if that is what it is) belongs to JFK? Why not Lincoln? Why not millions of other similarly vague profiles? And why would JFK in particular be relevant?
turtle123456
jfk is the drive that borders the tea garden
slappybuns
did anyone ever dig in the moon garden? i love that "Giant step" reference to the moon landing.
i did have another idea for the word "Giant" if it didn't have to do with the moon gardens or a long pole, and that is maybe to the Giant of the fair people, under "Economic"...........but it's just a thought
bclews did you ever poke around the totem pole at the beach?
"Running north, but first across" , i saw where everyone mentioned crossover dr. but didn't see anyone mention the Prayerbook Cross:
hxxp://www.mistersf.com/high/index.html?highggprose.htm
i think i might have found the window, what do you think? it's a landmark....
click on it to see the bars
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
jimerson
You know, I walked right past the Park Emergency Hospital and even took a few photos of that entrance, and did not even consider the bars as possibly relating to the bars on the cliff in the image.
I will have to get my photos in order. I have some recent ones from the Cliff House area and the totem pole.
slappybuns
that would be great jimerson, most of the old sites don't work anymore, so i couldn't see all the old pictures. i'm glad you're still around
bclews
slappybuns wrote::
bclews did you ever poke around the totem pole at the beach?
I was never there. I found the photo online.
scottrocks7
The Moon Garden may be the location. My aunt who has lived in California most of her life said you could not sneak in the Japanees Tea Garden. I do not know wether or not she understood I was talking about the early '80s but if she did then the moon garden may be the place. I will E-mail her and see what she says.
How much of the moon garden matches the verse.
slappybuns
scottrocks, haven't done a lot of research yet on the moon garden, i had been leaning more toward aquatic park and coit tower side of san francisco. i think most people are getting permission from the parks people when they find a certain spot they want to dig. i found this one picture that i liked because of the water, hoping it represented a river for the Twain connection:
hxxp://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... l%26sa%3DN
slappybuns
but if that is the window, it would be right there in the Golden Gate Park, (i think
jimerson do you think that is the window? what do you guys think?
i guess i didn't really answer your question scottrocks.....but, hey, i can make any verse fit anywhere, lol.
and of course i like the moon bridge:
hxxp://flickr.com/photos/markluukkonen/1068984910/
with all the moons in the picture
slappybuns
i'm trying to find out more about mark twain, and i remember huckleberry finn and tom sawyer fishing....i know there are lakes at the park....is there by any chance a big fishing pole?
and i found out he used to umpire at baseball games, i saw the baseball player there at the park.
how about this, there's a huck finn sportcasting place, on highway #1 at half-moon bay, lol
jimerson
Keep in mind the Moon Viewing Garden is part of the Botanical Gardens, which have always been home to many rare and delicate plants. It is also one of the more popular areas of the park, like the Japanese Tea Garden, and the entire Botanical Garden is closed at night and surounded by fences and gates.
shecrab
It's also been stated that no casque was buried in a public or private flower bed.
maltedfalcon
The tea garden and the moon garden solutions would require you either to break and enter,or get permission
as the verse does not say Get permission to dig out, as another verse does.
I seriously doubt both locations.
Where I can picture BP skulking about the bushes at night with a shovel, I cannot picture him breaking and entering...
scottrocks7
I agree BP would not have broke in. Big question. Was the Tea Garden and Moon garden walled and gated all around to the point he could not have sneaked in back in 1980.
Though it is not likely it could have been an inside job with the people that ran the park.
For now I still beleive the Image 1 Verse 7 match. Yes I have read all the new posts by Fox.
A good way to help us know if this is the Tea Garden is the spot is to try to get them to let us probe not dig in the area that verse 7 seams to take us too.
maltedfalcon
I visited the Tea Garden many times in the 70's as I lived in oakland then. and yes it always has had a wall around it
since it was created in the 40's The wall of a japanese garden is there to isolate the space and remove and separate it from the surrounding world. It wouldnt be a japanese garden without one.
If the soil is like any other soil in golden gate park, (and Im sure it is) there is about 1 foot of soil over sand. (flower beds probably have deeper soil.) but paths and walkways wouldnt.
and while you can stick a probe through the soil as soon as you hit the sand it stops, doesnt matter whether the sand it wet or dry, it just compacts at the tip of the probe and stops it. Probes are useless in GoldenGate park for that reason.
slappybuns
maltedfalcon, did you see this fence around the garden? it's a picket fence like in tom sawyer...seems perfect...but i'm not sure as i'm not there, but i would walk all around this fence
hxxp://travel.webshots.com/photo/237190 ... 4002jQcUpy
lol, that makes me feel just like tom sawyer in the story, he got others to want to paint the fence......
.
Trohn
Here is how I see the dragon - with the crossed arms being the bay bridge.
The roadway on treasure island is called "Serpentine"
Just a working theory. Nothing solid.
But it is very close to Coit Tower and Candlestick Park.(3-M for the youngsters)
maltedfalcon
In the 1980s treasure island was a working navy base, and off limits to civilians.
and being landfill there is pretty much no place to bury anything on the island as it is mostly paved/buildings or lawn.
Yerba buena, is almost as bad, while you could drive on the roads there was no place to stop that wasn't coast guard base.
Im not sure what you meant, coit tower isn't anywhere near candlestick park...
scottrocks7
All of what you say is interesting. I agree that the casque is definitely in the Golden Gate Park. I looked at maps of the park online and they match the design on the kimono matched the park map. The thing of it is all of the other clues in the image seam to point to the Tea Garden and less likely the Moon Garden.
Add to this the fact that verse 7 matches the tea garden to the letter.
If our thinking is right then there is one of three ways BP could have got in and burried the casque unnoticed. In the order of possibility
The first is that he went to a party or other gathering held in the tea garden after hours and snuck off to burry the casque.
The second is he got lucky and was in the park in the middle of the night and the park was acessable due to maitnance etc
And the third is that this was an inside job. BP knew somebody he trusted that somehow got him into the garden after hours.
Regardless of how he may have got in the garden and back out the next question is if it is in the garden how hard would it have been for someone during the day to get into the garden to dig. Were their fees to pay to get in. was their an attendant watching over the place etc ?
jimerson
I have reorganized my photos by location (mostly).
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/TheSecret
maltedfalcon
slappybuns wrote::
maltedfalcon, did you see this fence around the garden? it's a picket fence like in tom sawyer...seems perfect...but i'm not sure as i'm not there, but i would walk all around this fence
Yes absolutely you can walk around that fence and many others just like it. That is the kind of fence that surrounds various areas inside the garden.
The fence around the garden is more like a 8 foot wall with a gate building in the front and a service entrance in the back.
hxxp://www.panoramio.com/photo/3066248
maltedfalcon
scottrocks7 wrote::
If our thinking is right then there is one of three ways BP could have got in and burried the casque unnoticed. In the order of possibility
The first is that he went to a party or other gathering held in the tea garden after hours and snuck off to burry the casque.
The second is he got lucky and was in the park in the middle of the night and the park was acessable due to maitnance etc
And the third is that this was an inside job. BP knew somebody he trusted that somehow got him into the garden after hours.
Again no casques were buried in public or private gardens.... kind of kills the chances for either the tea garden or moon garden both of which are public gardens...
BP doesn't mention needing permission to dig out - which he does for another casque
Another observation- in the two solutions that are known, there are no verbal gymnastics.
i.e. When he says "as the road curves" he meant over by where the road curves.
When he says "seek the sounds of rumble" it meant near a train track...
So I suspect when he says At stone wall's door, he means a stone wall not stone's wall or stonewall's
when he says aces high, he either means 1 or an actual ace, associating ace with a jack in the game of 21 and then leaping to a big JAX sign is a bit much of a leap for me.
So while I think image 1 associates with verse 7 or possibly verse 6, I suspect that when it is solved the solution will also lack verbal gymnastics and be very plain.
fox
three words: greek cultural Garden
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
three words: greek cultural Garden
While the name is garden, the setting is park like, no wall , no gate, approachable from all sides,
similar to the childrens zoo in houston, it was open and not enclosed at the time.
Both the moon and tea garden are enclosed gardens with little if any undeveloped areas that arent flower beds or walkways.
kind of different
but again, As I have said before one theory is as good as the next until a casque is found,
Hope you don't mind me playing devil's advocate. If the theory can stand up to questions its a good one...
fox
that is so true MF... I didnt realize that both the Tea and Moon gardens were actual gardens enclosed by fencing. If that is the case, I also dont think that either would be a chosen location by BP.
fox
that is so true MF...
I
didnt realize that both the Tea and Moon gardens were actual gardens enclosed by fencing. If that is the case,
I
also dont think that either would be a chosen location by BP.
maltedfalcon
See my post in the Verse 6 section...
maltedfalcon
in the verse 6 thread forest blight was indicating he didnt see the resemblance
of
the rectangle on the dress to GG park.
he said
"
I
disagree.
I
don't see any reasonable resemblance. Convince me!"
OK but bear with me as
I
cant insert images now, but
I
will come back and add them to the thread.
First - you said a rectangle is a rectangle... not true, while the all have 4 90 degee angles and 4 sides, the length and widths can differ. Go back to high school geometry if you can scale the width or length
of
a rectangle to match another rectangle and then the adjacent side equals the adjacent side on the other rectangle, these rectangles are said to be similar....
thats a fancy way
of
saying if you overlay one rectangle on another and shrink or expand it until one side matches, - if all the other sides match. they are similar.. Try this out using photoshop or a similar programs you can overlay the images and then make the top one semi transparent.
The rectangle on the dress matches the outline
of
GG park. try it....
So right there are 8 points
of
resemblance 4 corners and 4 matching sides...
Next notice the G h at the top
of
the rectangle is mirrored... So what the heck mirror the rectangle from thr dess image - now the G h reads left to right...
look at the road sitting under the G h.... Can you read it? Yes it says Great Highway
Hey notice the loop in the dragon now matches the location and shape
of
strawberry hill an island in a lake in the park.
examine her arms, can you describe them? how about crossed over... what is the name
of
the main street across the park,
yes its cross over drive, (which also happens to be highway 1)
Then there is the silhouette in the image is it lincoln or JFK - -
I
am not sure kind
of
looks like both...
anyway the street to the south
of
the park is lincoln and the road through the center
of
park is jfk
the look under the wing
of
the dragon matches the location
of
the polo field....
and there is more.
does that mean the location
of
the casque is in GG park ? abosolutely not....
as also hidden in the image is a map
of
fort Point at the golden gate. and a street map
of
the area south
of
coit tower....
did
I
convince you?
maltedfalcon
in the verse 6 thread forest blight was indicating he didnt see the resemblance of the rectangle on the dress to GG park.
he said
"I disagree. I don't see any reasonable resemblance. Convince me!"
OK but bear with me as I cant insert images now, but I will come back and add them to the thread.
First - you said a rectangle is a rectangle... not true, while the all have 4 90 degee angles and 4 sides, the length and widths can differ. Go back to high school geometry if you can scale the width or length of a rectangle to match another rectangle and then the adjacent side equals the adjacent side on the other rectangle, these rectangles are said to be similar....
thats a fancy way of saying if you overlay one rectangle on another and shrink or expand it until one side matches, - if all the other sides match. they are similar.. Try this out using photoshop or a similar programs you can overlay the images and then make the top one semi transparent.
The rectangle on the dress matches the outline of GG park. try it....
So right there are 8 points of resemblance 4 corners and 4 matching sides...
Next notice the G h at the top of the rectangle is mirrored... So what the heck mirror the rectangle from thr dess image - now the G h reads left to right...
look at the road sitting under the G h.... Can you read it? Yes it says Great Highway
Hey notice the loop in the dragon now matches the location and shape of strawberry hill an island in a lake in the park.
examine her arms, can you describe them? how about crossed over... what is the name of the main street across the park,
yes its cross over drive, (which also happens to be highway 1)
Then there is the silhouette in the image is it lincoln or JFK - -I am not sure kind of looks like both...
anyway the street to the south of the park is lincoln and the road through the center of park is jfk
the look under the wing of the dragon matches the location of the polo field....
and there is more.
does that mean the location of the casque is in GG park ? abosolutely not....
as also hidden in the image is a map of fort Point at the golden gate. and a street map of the area south of coit tower....
did I convince you?
scottrocks7
good Maltedfalcon and
I
think Forest Blight is a she. Under any condition
I
think we can now safely say the casque is someplace in the Golden Gate area. Though we will need to find St. Louis and New Orleans and still have the "stone walls gate" verse not used before we have enough proof to convince the park authority to let us dig.
scottrocks7
good Maltedfalcon and I think Forest Blight is a she. Under any condition I think we can now safely say the casque is someplace in the Golden Gate area. Though we will need to find St. Louis and New Orleans and still have the "stone walls gate" verse not used before we have enough proof to convince the park authority to let us dig.
forest_blight
Unknown:
First - you said a rectangle is a rectangle... not true, while the all have 4 90 degee angles and 4 sides, the length and widths can differ. Go back to high school geometry if you can scale the width or length of a rectangle to match another rectangle and then the adjacent side equals the adjacent side on the other rectangle, these rectangles are said to be similar....
thats a fancy way of saying if you overlay one rectangle on another and shrink or expand it until one side matches, - if all the other sides match. they are similar.. Try this out using photoshop or a similar programs you can overlay the images and then make the top one semi transparent.
The rectangle on the dress matches the outline of GG park. try it....
So right there are 8 points of resemblance 4 corners and 4 matching sides...
Unknown:
Next notice the G h at the top of the rectangle is mirrored... So what the heck mirror the rectangle from thr dess image - now the G h reads left to right...
look at the road sitting under the G h.... Can you read it? Yes it says Great Highway
Unknown:
Hey notice the loop in the dragon now matches the location and shape of strawberry hill an island in a lake in the park.
Unknown:
examine her arms, can you describe them? how about crossed over... what is the name of the main street across the park,
yes its cross over drive, (which also happens to be highway 1)
Unknown:
Then there is the silhouette in the image is it lincoln or JFK - -I am not sure kind of looks like both...
anyway the street to the south of the park is lincoln and the road through the center of park is jfk
Unknown:
the look under the wing of the dragon matches the location of the polo field....
Unknown:
and there is more.
does that mean the location of the casque is in GG park ? abosolutely not....
as also hidden in the image is a map of fort Point at the golden gate. and a street map of the area south of coit tower....
Unknown:
did I convince you?
Thanks maltedfalcon, but I remain very difficult to convince. Permit me to erode your certainty...
I agree that rectangles that are similar (in the geometric sense) would be a point in your favor, but I disagree that these particular rectangles are similar. As I said almost 3 years ago, "As for GG Park, we have the possible outline of one of the lakes, and I'll admit that the rectangular portion of her robe is evocative of GG Park turned on its side, but the dimensions (ratio of width to length) are off by more than you'd expect if one was a representation of the other (ratios 1:4.9 vs. 1:6.2)." That's quite a large difference. With a shape as ubiquitous as a rectangle, for it to represent something important, its dimensions would need to be
exactly
similar.
Simplicity itself. I believe the "Gh" to be a reference to Ghirardelli Square. Not only is the font the same, but unlike most instances of important letters, the Gh of Ghirardelli Square happen to be readable from behind and from very far away. They are giant letters propped up on top of a building. Anyone looking at them from anywhere but the wharf (i.e., most of San Francisco) would see them spelled out backwards in that very font.
If we're talking about the same loop, it also looks strikingly like the mis-aligned Telegraph Hill on a street map of northeast San Francisco.
I'll give you that, but I don't give the Highway 1 reference any weight.
That would be important... if the silhouette is either JFK or Lincoln, which it could be.
Can you elaborate? I don't quite see this.
Fort Point I'll agree with, and the Coit Tower reference.
Not fully.
P.S. Scott - Forest Blight is most assuredly a "he."
forest_blight
Unknown:
First - you said a rectangle is a rectangle... not true, while the all have 4 90 degee angles and 4 sides, the length and widths can differ. Go back to high school geometry if you can scale the width or length
of
a rectangle to match another rectangle and then the adjacent side equals the adjacent side on the other rectangle, these rectangles are said to be similar....
thats a fancy way
of
saying if you overlay one rectangle on another and shrink or expand it until one side matches, - if all the other sides match. they are similar.. Try this out using photoshop or a similar programs you can overlay the images and then make the top one semi transparent.
The rectangle on the dress matches the outline
of
GG park. try it....
So right there are 8 points
of
resemblance 4 corners and 4 matching sides...
Unknown:
Next notice the G h at the top
of
the rectangle is mirrored... So what the heck mirror the rectangle from thr dess image - now the G h reads left to right...
look at the road sitting under the G h.... Can you read it? Yes it says Great Highway
Unknown:
Hey notice the loop in the dragon now matches the location and shape
of
strawberry hill an island in a lake in the park.
Unknown:
examine her arms, can you describe them? how about crossed over... what is the name
of
the main street across the park,
yes its cross over drive, (which also happens to be highway 1)
Unknown:
Then there is the silhouette in the image is it lincoln or JFK - -
I
am not sure kind
of
looks like both...
anyway the street to the south
of
the park is lincoln and the road through the center
of
park is jfk
Unknown:
the look under the wing
of
the dragon matches the location
of
the polo field....
Unknown:
and there is more.
does that mean the location
of
the casque is in GG park ? abosolutely not....
as also hidden in the image is a map
of
fort Point at the golden gate. and a street map
of
the area south
of
coit tower....
Unknown:
did
I
convince you?
Thanks maltedfalcon, but
I
remain very difficult to convince. Permit me to erode your certainty...
I
agree that rectangles that are similar (in the geometric sense) would be a point in your favor, but
I
disagree that these particular rectangles are similar. As
I
said almost 3 years ago, "As for GG Park, we have the possible outline
of
one
of
the lakes, and
I
'll admit that the rectangular portion
of
her robe is evocative
of
GG Park turned on its side, but the dimensions (ratio
of
width to length) are off by more than you'd expect if one was a representation
of
the other (ratios 1:4.9 vs. 1:6.2)." That's quite a large difference. With a shape as ubiquitous as a rectangle, for it to represent something important, its dimensions would need to be
exactly
similar.
Simplicity itself.
I
believe the "Gh" to be a reference to Ghirardelli Square. Not only is the font the same, but unlike most instances
of
important letters, the Gh
of
Ghirardelli Square happen to be readable from behind and from very far away. They are giant letters propped up on top
of
a building. Anyone looking at them from anywhere but the wharf (
i
.e., most
of
San Francisco) would see them spelled out backwards in that very font.
If we're talking about the same loop, it also looks strikingly like the mis-aligned Telegraph Hill on a street map
of
northeast San Francisco.
I
'll give you that, but
I
don't give the Highway 1 reference any weight.
That would be important... if the silhouette is either JFK or Lincoln, which it could be.
Can you elaborate?
I
don't quite see this.
Fort Point
I
'll agree with, and the Coit Tower reference.
Not fully.
P.S. Scott - Forest Blight is most assuredly a "he."
boogieman
Unless you drank from the Fountain of youth FB. Just ask Stercox! See what happened to her.
boogieman
Unless you drank from the Fountain
of
youth FB. Just ask Stercox! See what happened to her.
jimerson
Well I think the ratio is not exact but close enough.
jimerson
Well
I
think the ratio is not exact but close enough.
maltedfalcon
Actually if you mirror the image
of
the dress it lines up almost exactly.
look at the Right hand lower side
of
the rectangle on the dress
you will notice it is not exactly square- it flares out a little.
amazingly when you mirror the dress the flare matches exactly the angle
of
the park map... (not close, exact)
Now remember there was an official park map that was given out at kiosks and information desks through the park in the 80s and early 90s, The last time
I
went the park map had been modernized - made much more iconic. bigger lines, easier to read fonts etc...
It was that original map that lined up perfectly with the outline on the dress (when mirrored.)
I
would be willing to bet BP took one
of
those maps home with him...
It was also that map, which had the image
of
the lake, (the south end
of
North lake, from that map matched the strange blue shape in image 1...) unfortunately North lake has been remodeled (drained and bulldozed) several times since the late 80s and the current shape is a bit different. (one
of
the legs is bent at a different angle now)
Lastly FB
I
want to thank you, you made me notice something today...
I
had always wondered why the crossed over arms didn't line up with cross over drive.
So
I
was messing about with it in photo shop and
i
cut and dragged the arms down to line up on crossover drive, (when
I
did the pearl in the image was in the piece
I
cut and pasted....
Once the arms are lined up with crossover drive. guess where the pearl ended up?
on top
of
the location
of
the Goddess
of
the Forest Totem Pole.... weird huh...
Anyway
I
would love to be 100% completely wrong... because if
I
'm right, the casque was destroyed when an irrigation line was run through about 10 years ago exactly 1 yard in front
of
the totem poles base...
There are some loose ends...
but
I
dont feel there is any question the rectangle on the dress represents GG park, As always that could simply mean San Francisco, not GG park, the key is Which verse...
maltedfalcon
Actually if you mirror the image of the dress it lines up almost exactly.
look at the Right hand lower side of the rectangle on the dress
you will notice it is not exactly square- it flares out a little.
amazingly when you mirror the dress the flare matches exactly the angle of the park map... (not close, exact)
Now remember there was an official park map that was given out at kiosks and information desks through the park in the 80s and early 90s, The last time I went the park map had been modernized - made much more iconic. bigger lines, easier to read fonts etc...
It was that original map that lined up perfectly with the outline on the dress (when mirrored.) I would be willing to bet BP took one of those maps home with him...
It was also that map, which had the image of the lake, (the south end of North lake, from that map matched the strange blue shape in image 1...) unfortunately North lake has been remodeled (drained and bulldozed) several times since the late 80s and the current shape is a bit different. (one of the legs is bent at a different angle now)
Lastly FB I want to thank you, you made me notice something today... I had always wondered why the crossed over arms didn't line up with cross over drive.
So I was messing about with it in photo shop and i cut and dragged the arms down to line up on crossover drive, (when I did the pearl in the image was in the piece I cut and pasted....
Once the arms are lined up with crossover drive. guess where the pearl ended up?
on top of the location of the Goddess of the Forest Totem Pole.... weird huh...
Anyway I would love to be 100% completely wrong... because if I'm right, the casque was destroyed when an irrigation line was run through about 10 years ago exactly 1 yard in front of the totem poles base...
There are some loose ends...
but I dont feel there is any question the rectangle on the dress represents GG park, As always that could simply mean San Francisco, not GG park, the key is Which verse...
forest_blight
Well,
I
stand corrected. You may be onto something after all.
forest_blight
Well, I stand corrected. You may be onto something after all.
wilhouse
I've thought for a very long time that the casque was in front of theGoddess of the Forest Totem Pole.
wilhouse
wilhouse
I
've thought for a very long time that the casque was in front
of
theGoddess
of
the Forest Totem Pole.
wilhouse
scottrocks7
The casque would be found when they put the irigation line in. It is possible that the casque was found then and it was not knowen what they had. This idea should be looked into also if one
of
the verses seenms to fit the totem pole area it may be worth pokeing around the totem pole area. If the construction people did not find the casque and pokeing around the totem poll comes up empty then the possibility that the Tea Garden is the location greatly increases.
The casque could be behind or to the side
of
the totem poll
After we eliminate the totem poll as the possible location we should try again to dig in the tea garden. If the tea garden is the location then it is possible that the casque is under a steping stone.
I
still think the Japanese theam
of
the image was to eliminate any dbout about the tea garden being the location. It is also possible the iron gate door in the image may not be Alcatraz but rather the emtry to the tea garden.
The way
I
interpet the image is this way. The lattitude and longitude are in the hair the G and H anre the city ID the crossed arms are a representation
of
Guardian
of
the Forest Totem Poll to ID the park. The kimono pateren is a map
of
GGP and the iron gate door is the entry to the tea garden. The door could be the image to verse connecter "stone walls gate" a torch like thoes in the tea garden forms the base
of
the table and the Japanese theam
of
the picture was to end any dbout along the you could not get in lines.
Also if any place in GGP had guest books it would be interesting to see if BP signed. This would be somewhat
of
a search but he may have signed the tea garden guest book when he went in to get pictures for JJp to use in the image. Just a guess.
scottrocks7
The casque would be found when they put the irigation line in. It is possible that the casque was found then and it was not knowen what they had. This idea should be looked into also if one of the verses seenms to fit the totem pole area it may be worth pokeing around the totem pole area. If the construction people did not find the casque and pokeing around the totem poll comes up empty then the possibility that the Tea Garden is the location greatly increases.
The casque could be behind or to the side of the totem poll
After we eliminate the totem poll as the possible location we should try again to dig in the tea garden. If the tea garden is the location then it is possible that the casque is under a steping stone.
I still think the Japanese theam of the image was to eliminate any dbout about the tea garden being the location. It is also possible the iron gate door in the image may not be Alcatraz but rather the emtry to the tea garden.
The way I interpet the image is this way. The lattitude and longitude are in the hair the G and H anre the city ID the crossed arms are a representation of Guardian of the Forest Totem Poll to ID the park. The kimono pateren is a map of GGP and the iron gate door is the entry to the tea garden. The door could be the image to verse connecter "stone walls gate" a torch like thoes in the tea garden forms the base of the table and the Japanese theam of the picture was to end any dbout along the you could not get in lines.
Also if any place in GGP had guest books it would be interesting to see if BP signed. This would be somewhat of a search but he may have signed the tea garden guest book when he went in to get pictures for JJp to use in the image. Just a guess.
maltedfalcon
scottrocks7 wrote::
The casque would be found when they put the irrigation line in.
The casque could be behind or to the side of the totem poll
After we eliminate the totem poll as the possible location we should try again to dig in the tea garden. If the tea garden is the location then it is possible that the casque is under a stepping stone.
I still think the Japanese theme of the image was to eliminate any about about the tea garden being the location. m
I spoke with the people who put in the irrigation line. They used a ditch digger that had a 10 foot digging wheel on it. It can easily dig through asphalt and roadway. It has no trouble digging through loose gravel or sand, It' pulverizes rocks the size of basketballs. If it had gone through the area of the casque, the casque would have been turned into small pieces the size of quarters and dimes... If anyone noticed it coming out of the dirt chute, it would have looked like trash...
The dirt is displaced between 5 and 15 feet laterally and put into a pile that runs along side the trench.
when the pipe is laid the dirt is then just pushed back into the hole.
This means that if some one wanted to, they could dig up a 30 foot section of pipe and sift the dirt for the pieces... The workers could not remember which way they were running the digger, East or west...
FYI I have dug entirely around the perimeter of the base out to 5 feet (thats a lot of digging)
When you dig in the most likely place you find an irrigation pipe...
The theme of the image is Chinese ,not Japanese, the dress and dragon is Chinese style and the woman has Chinese features. The wall and gate that surround the tea garden is wooden not stone, and didn't BP say he didnt bury any casques in gardens?
maltedfalcon
scottrocks7 wrote::
The casque would be found when they put the irrigation line in.
The casque could be behind or to the side
of
the totem poll
After we eliminate the totem poll as the possible location we should try again to dig in the tea garden. If the tea garden is the location then it is possible that the casque is under a stepping stone.
I
still think the Japanese theme
of
the image was to eliminate any about about the tea garden being the location. m
I
spoke with the people who put in the irrigation line. They used a ditch digger that had a 10 foot digging wheel on it. It can easily dig through asphalt and roadway. It has no trouble digging through loose gravel or sand, It' pulverizes rocks the size
of
basketballs. If it had gone through the area
of
the casque, the casque would have been turned into small pieces the size
of
quarters and dimes... If anyone noticed it coming out
of
the dirt chute, it would have looked like trash...
The dirt is displaced between 5 and 15 feet laterally and put into a pile that runs along side the trench.
when the pipe is laid the dirt is then just pushed back into the hole.
This means that if some one wanted to, they could dig up a 30 foot section
of
pipe and sift the dirt for the pieces... The workers could not remember which way they were running the digger, East or west...
FYI
I
have dug entirely around the perimeter
of
the base out to 5 feet (thats a lot
of
digging)
When you dig in the most likely place you find an irrigation pipe...
The theme
of
the image is Chinese ,not Japanese, the dress and dragon is Chinese style and the woman has Chinese features. The wall and gate that surround the tea garden is wooden not stone, and didn't BP say he didnt bury any casques in gardens?
shecrab
Unknown:
and didn't BP say he didnt bury any casques in gardens?
Specifically, he said he did not bury anything in a public or private
flower bed.
fox
lest we forget the greek cultural GARDENS...
shecrab
Exactly my point, Fox (this agreement thing is getting to be a habit, eh?). One may bury something in a "garden" without disturbing the actual flower beds. As was done in Cleveland.
fox
shecrab wrote::
Exactly my point, Fox (this agreement thing is getting to be a habit, eh?).
wilhouse
if he could bury it in a cultural garden he could bury it in a children's zoo!!
wilhouse
animal painter
Just a comparison between the Image 1 clock and a clock from
the Eureka...a paddle steamboat anchored in the Aquatic Park, SF.
(object of Twain's attention in verse 7.)
There is more than a little resemblance.
I posted this on the Verse 7 thread, too.
AP
animal painter
Another observation from Aquatic Park...There are several
old lampposts around the beach sidewalk that have a simiilarity
to the table leg of Image 1.
AP
animal painter
Here is Aquatic Park's Giant Pole...from which you could take a
giant step in the direction of Twain's-object-of-attention...
(the Eureka...the paddle boat.)
AP
fox
ooh, that looks promising...except it hurts my N.O. theory
animal painter
Here is another similarity...
There are light posts all around the block of Ghirardelli Square
that look like moon-globes...But I cannot be sure of their age.
AP
animal painter
The very
end curl
of the rose stem on image 1 looks like the same shape
as the breakwater around Aquatic Park.
AP
eljayo
animal painter wrote::
Here is another similarity...
There are light posts all around the block of Ghirardelli Square
that look like moon-globes...But I cannot be sure of their age.
AP
Thumbs up for this one AP.
animal painter
Just to show the use of the same font in Image 1
as the Ghirardelli Square sign...seen backwards from
North Point St....headed toward Aquatic Park.
AP
fox
Ok, I cant seem to get the printscreen to work for me either. I can get it printed and pasted and copied but I cant get the final into the reply here... so...
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1& ... 1&ct=image
Use this link to an address right across Beach St from the Aquatic center and just down the street from the 'Poles' . Click on Street View and then click on the map street next to the orange icon...this will bring you down to the street. The street address will be displayed in upper left corner of window. Go to 868 Beach St where you will see 2 of the 'moon' lamps that AP found. Yes, they appear to be all up and down the street. Once at 868 Beach St, pan south and up slightly and you will see a portion of the Ghirardelli Sq sign between the 2 lamps. One problem I see is that the Gh, from this angle, is forward. Is there another park on the other side of the sign so that our Gh is reversed? Just a thought.
And, if you continue east a little bit down the street, you will come to those odd 'Poles' which look less and less like a Pole from street level as Falcon stated. hmmmm
animal painter
Fox,
You can see the the Ghirardelli sign backwards from North Point St.
as you are walking down Larkin St.
(That is where I "took the picture" a few posts back from here.)
AP
Egbert
Go to 2988 Larkin St., and look northwest and up. The Gh is most definitely backwards.
Trohn
I have found a positive link between this area (Gh Sqaure/Aquatic Park) and verse 6,
which I have believed to be SF.
hxxp://soccer.org/NR/rdonlyres/BA4558DA ... ctions.pdf
The USS Potomac (historic National Attraction) is called
FDR's " Floating White House"
maltedfalcon
unfortunately during the 80s the uss potomac was in drydock in sausilito and then towed to treasure island where it sank, it was restored and not moved to sf until about 1995
maltedfalcon
its in oakland now, isnt it?
Trohn
maltedfalcon wrote::
its in oakland now, isnt it?
So it would have been at Treasure Island at the time BP was burying the casques.
(just like the literary reference from the first line)
World War II Changes Use of the Potomac
On Monday, August 4, 1941, four months before Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR boarded the USS Potomac ostensibly for a fishing trip and a visit to Martha’s Vineyard. The President, however, was secretly transferred to the heavy cruiser USS Augusta on Tuesday morning the 5th to travel to Newfoundland where he would meet with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill – their first meeting as Heads of State. During this top-secret rendezvous, the two world leaders forged the principles of the Atlantic Charter, which formed the Allied partnership during World War II and what Roosevelt called the "United Nations", to plan the post-war peace. With the United States’ direct involvement in the war at the end of 1941, the president’s recreational use of the USS Potomac came to an end.
After FDR’s death in April 1945, the Potomac began a long and ignominious decline from her former role in world affairs. After many adventures and many owners – including Elvis Presley at one point – she was seized in 1980 in San Francisco by U.S. Customs for her role as a front for drug smugglers. Towed to Treasure Island, the proud vessel’s hull was pierced one night and she sank.
The USS Potomac Resurfaces – Back to Her Old Glory
Refloated by the Navy two weeks later, she was sold to the Port of Oakland for just $15,000. The Port of Oakland spearheaded a cooperative effort with organized labor, maritime corporations and dedicated volunteers to complete a $5 million restoration.
Opened to the public in 1995, the Association for the Preservation of the Presidential Yacht Potomac now operates this National Historic Landmark as an active memorial to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the momentous times through which he led our nation.
maltedfalcon
You are absolutely correct.
TI and a white house...
shecrab
I have been looking all day at Treasure Island. And I've found some really interesting things.
hxxp://www.sfmuseum.net/hist6/ti-lights.html
(read this whole article!)
You'll see an arc of lights?
Citadel in the night?
Wind-swept halls?
Hmmm.....funny thing is, I'd never have suspected this verse for this location---but---the latitude and longitude of Treasure island are EXACT to the image: 37, 122, and when I started reading about it, some things just began to click together.
The island is man-made--weight and roots together saved the site? The bay area has fierce winds--and on Treasure Island, they are definitely a problem at times. The citadel-like buildings and the wind-swept halls of the 1939 Fair are well-documented. The "wingless bird ascended"? maybe The Sun Tower, which has been described as an "art-deco rocket". Born of ancient dreams of flight? well, there's plenty of aviation stuff there--including an aviation museum, a Naval Air Station, and the Fair had a bunch of exhibits of airplanes, flight-associated things....and the airport is nearby. White stone? All over the place. And so, oddly enough, is MICA! It was mixed in with the stucco on the Fair buildings to make them "glimmer" in the night lights!" This is the only other place I've seen mica mentioned. (another linking item with these verses maybe?)
I'm not nearly finished trying to see if there are any other tie-ins with this verse--but I'm working on it. Who knows--maybe THIS is the place. Wouldn't it make a ton of sense? "Treasure" Island? (Like, uh, DUH...)
And...the obvious association with other verses, and other references: including "Treasure Island" by Stevenson? AND...there was a "Mark Twain House" at the World's Fair...and a White House nearby....eerily enough, it's almost like this one image sparks all the other verses--in smaller ways. Which, if you read through the intro in the book, ALSO makes sense--because the Pearl--the Chinese treasure--is the one that is mentioned last. It's also diametrically opposed to New York, where BP lived---there is a wonderful synchronicity and symmetry here!
I don't know if it's on purpose or if it's just a huge coincidence, but why not?
If there's a "lane 222" there, I'm convinced.
fox
not quite a lane technically but interesting nonetheless
hxxp://www.noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf222.asp
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
I have been looking all day at Treasure Island. And I've found some really interesting things.
The only problem is that until recently, the entirety of treasure island has been a military base with a 24 hour guard at the front gate and no admittance without a reason for entry.
BP would not have been able to set foot on Treasure Island any time during the 1980s
nor would any treasure hunters been allowed there either.
Yerba Buena island is also a coast guard base, and there is not any place to stop your car and go exploring...
So while there has always been some great matches for TI as a casque resting place it is an impossibility.
The only thing Imagineable is a location that somehow has a view of TI from the location....
shecrab
maltedfalcon wrote::
The only problem is that until recently, the entirety of treasure island has been a military base with a 24 hour guard at the front gate and no admittance without a reason for entry.
BP would not have been able to set foot on Treasure Island any time during the 1980s
nor would any treasure hunters been allowed there either.
Yerba Buena island is also a coast guard base, and there is not any place to stop your car and go exploring...
So while there has always been some great matches for TI as a casque resting place it is an impossibility.
The only thing Imagineable is a location that somehow has a view of TI from the location....
Not true. Only PART of TI was a military base. The rest was a tourist attraction and had been since 1940, since the fair.
My ex-husband was stationed there in the 70's and we had friends who lived there. You could get onto the island with no trouble at all.
Remember, the base security in the 80's was very open.
I should say this however---I don't really think it's buried ON the island, after my research last night. There just isn't much open land. And no trees. There may not be any topsoil!
maltedfalcon
Hmmm, I lived in Oakland in from 1969 to 1978 so I can only speak for those years.
I lived on Oak Knoll Navy Base and we often went to TI to shop at the base commissary.
The Gate to the base was just accross the spit that connected the TI to Yerba Buena.
The 1st building on the base was the one used for the airport in an Indiana Jones movie. That was base administration and it was behind the gate.
I dont remember any place accessible to tourists at all during that time
maybe it was changed during the 80s. what exactly was accesible to tourists?
maltedfalcon
I asked my older brother what he remembered, the exception would be people were allowed access to the museum in building 1
but thats as far as they could go.
shecrab
The museum. That is what I was referring to.
Trohn
shecrab wrote::
The museum. That is what I was referring to.
"Seen here by eyes of old"
The road that runs in front of the museum: Avenue of the Palms
fox
nobody liked my 222 = Golden Gate Bridge?
shecrab
Well, sure we did!
I also liked Room 222 with Karen Valentine.
Actually, I was wondering where that number came from, exactly? I mean, does SF have all of its landmarks numbered?
Trohn
Can someone who was familar with the Base/Museum back in the day,
let us know if there was a Pacifica statue in the plaza fronting the museum??
maltedfalcon
pacifica was torn down immediately after the fair. The building itself is the only remnant of the fair on the island that I know of.
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
nobody liked my 222 = Golden Gate Bridge?
actually I sure did, it would very important to find out where on the ground that information is.
... where is a marker that says that located (besides online)
shecrab
24 images of the Fair, showing the buildings, the layout and the statues. This is a power-point presentation, so be patient and let it run.
hxxp://www.sfmuseum.net/views/ggieviews.ppt
shecrab
hxxp://www.sfmuseum.net/hist6/ti-statue.html
Is this the Pacifica statue you were talking about?
maltedfalcon
no, this one
hxxp://www.pacificastatue.org/
animal painter
I am struck by the similarities of the facial features of the
lady in Image 1 and the face of the Pacifica Statue....
the straight nose, the eyebrows and the contrast on the lips...
I realize that the angle of the photo changes the face ,
but the straightness of the nose and where the
eyebrows arch to meet the nose...look so similar.
If Pacifica were not around in 1981, then maybe it is a moot point.
AP
Trohn
And her arms were/are outstretched
(between the arms)
The body of the statue has some resemblence (shape) of image 1 as well.
forest_blight
AP, I don't see any resemblance, beyond the fact that both are female faces. Some features are actually opposite (widow's peak vs. part, upward-slanting eyes vs. downward-slanting...).
shecrab
maltedfalcon wrote::
no, this one
hxxp://www.pacificastatue.org/
that one was in the Power Point presentation in the post just before my other one.
shecrab
Both faces are vaguely Oriental, but to me, there's not much other real resemblance. Since the pearl is the Chinese treasure, an Oriental face was called for. The 'downward' slant of the eyes on the guidebook cover is due to the angle the drawing is done from--i.e., looking up, not full face-on.
However, I do believe that the image suggests the Far East, as did the entire fair when it was on--it celebrated the cultures from the Pacific rim--Asian and Polynesian.
I really suggest you all look at that PP presentation. It has very clear images from the Fair and they are quite interesting. Especially the "rock-like" buildings in the 6th image--they look quite like the rocks in the background of P. 1. Startlingly so, in fact. In fact, so much so--well--I'll let you look at them.
animal painter
FB,
You are right about Pacifica and Image 1 not being a perfect match.
It's just her
NOSE
!
Shecrab,
The power point of the exposition was very interesting.
The rock formations are very like the rocks in image 1.
I can't see how they could destroy such a magnificent place.
Do you think that BP would make use of images that
were not really present at the sight when he was there?
The internet was not readily available in the early 80's,
so the search would have been much more difficult to
find related historic photos.
AP
maltedfalcon
As was the case of the Chicago Exposition, the buildings at the fair on TI were not built to last
mostly just stucco over wood. the statues were mostly just poured concrete and by the end of the fair the salt air and moisture was beginning to cause a great deal of wear and tear.
I really wish those photos had been color, the fair was an incredible site I've been told.
lots of things we think of as "calfornian" were introduced there...
shecrab
It's true that there was no real internet then...but...there were libraries, and the 1940 Expo in San Francisco was fairly well documented. I'm sure he had no trouble finding pics! Especially if he was actually out there.
Truly--about those buildings and the rocks...I haven't seen a better match to the ones in p.1! That's kinda what got me started on this tack in the first place--seeing the images of the "rocket-like" building, and those rock-like buildings. it really blew me away.
Was it buried on TI? Probably not at all--but within sight of it? I'll bet on it with a certainty I haven't had in a long time in this game.
There are accounts of TI in the early 80's on the museum's web site--they have a "memory book" where you can look up first-person accounts of TI from it's inception to now. In one entry, a lady wrote about visiting the museum and how "Building #1--the curved building--was at the time an airport terminal. And how "Building #2," which was behind it, was the crumbling remains of the "Hall of Aerial Transportation." (see quotes below) I was reminded of the "wind-swept halls, and from ancient dreams of flight etc." lines from the other verse. If you go thru the entries in the memory book, you can see that the public has been going onto the base for quite a while, and BP probably could have gotten on it easily enough, if not to bury the casque, at least to look.
We learned that this building, which the Navy had unpretentiously dubbed “Building One,” had been the Administration Building for the world’s fair—and that it had been designed to be an airport terminal. AIRPORT TERMINAL? Yes indeed, and the building behind it—now you can answer this one—“Building Two”—had been the Hall of Aerial Transportation! As we drew nearer we saw a bas relief high in the two-story recessed doorway of this gargantuan building, a goddess in flowing robes, standing atop a small globe, wings on her feet. She, like the remainder of the buildings we saw on Treasure Island, had been neglected. Her plaster skin was crumbling in places, and bits of bird nest poked out from the holes.
maltedfalcon
Actually building one did serve as an air terminal for quite some time. before and after the navy base was there
It was the terminal departure point for the China clippers (sea planes)
you waited inside then walked straight out the front accross the main street and down a small stairway onto a small dock to board the clipper.
Still all this was behind the main Security gate, manned by US marines until the 60's and the Navy after that
a stranger with a shovel and small box would not have been looked too kindly upon....
2fast4u2c
forest_blight wrote::
AP, I don't see any resemblance, beyond the fact that both are female faces. Some features are actually opposite (widow's peak vs. part, upward-slanting eyes vs. downward-slanting...).
Actually the fact that everything between the two seeming to be exact opposites has me intrigued. Flat bottom lip vs rounded, upper lip coming to peaks vs flat upper lip, flat eyebrows vs arched ones, widows peak vs part, eye slanted up vs eye slanted down, rounded nose vs square nose...all seems very deliberate to me
2fast4u2c
forest_blight wrote::
AP,
I
don't see any resemblance, beyond the fact that both are female faces. Some features are actually opposite (widow's peak vs. part, upward-slanting eyes vs. downward-slanting...).
Actually the fact that everything between the two seeming to be exact opposites has me intrigued. Flat bottom lip vs rounded, upper lip coming to peaks vs flat upper lip, flat eyebrows vs arched ones, widows peak vs part, eye slanted up vs eye slanted down, rounded nose vs square nose...all seems very deliberate to me
maltedfalcon
so humor me for a minute and just go with the theory that the iconic image in a picture is just a city confirmer and that it is on the same street as the first clue in a verse...
That being said GGpark would then be an iconic image not a casque location.
So lots and lots of streets go from ggpark which one is the street we should take?
Remember the image of ggpark is inverted (as indicated by the Gh)
so flip the image. look at her fingers, her left points at 3 blocks her right at 4 blocks... hmm 34th ave
runs due north out of ggpark.
Go back to the Cleveland image. the street from the terminal tower ran straight until you came to Liberty ave,
which is confirmed in the painting by the Lbell image, (you are supposed to turn right on liberty drive, (it took you right to the front of the Italian garden...
Notice the Lincoln silhouette in image 1, perhaps this means go up 34th to lincoln.
Where does that put us? Lincoln park is to our right (and the palace of the legion of honor,
straight ahead is baker beach and just to our left is china beach...
So the question becomes, if not verse 7, which verse...
I like the lane 222 -GG bridge landmark 222 connection.
if you go to Baker beach the view of the bridge is amazing and also from that point of view, at night the roadbed forms an arc of lights...
hxxp://www.jmg-galleries.com/blog_image ... h_520c.jpg
as do the lights on the suspension cables....
china beach also has its pluses, as you get the same view as baker beach and it has a chinese theme...
lincoln park, also has possibilities for a week or so I was thinking the Licoln highway marker was a good match for the object under the table.
hxxp://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/3948 ... 06.jpg?v=0
but it turns out it was replaced in the 90s and the previous one looks less like the object under the table, (at least in the picture I saw, but the possiblity is still there the was even a different one in place in 1981...)
So anyway I think we are in the right neighborood but there needs to be some more thought as to which verse is correct...
I would hope that sometime soon someone could go look around montreal to confirm or deny the v7 use there...
maltedfalcon
so humor me for a minute and just go with the theory that the iconic image in a picture is just a city confirmer and that it is on the same street as the first clue in a verse...
That being said GGpark would then be an iconic image not a casque location.
So lots and lots
of
streets go from ggpark which one is the street we should take?
Remember the image
of
ggpark is inverted (as indicated by the Gh)
so flip the image. look at her fingers, her left points at 3 blocks her right at 4 blocks... hmm 34th ave
runs due north out
of
ggpark.
Go back to the Cleveland image. the street from the terminal tower ran straight until you came to Liberty ave,
which is confirmed in the painting by the Lbell image, (you are supposed to turn right on liberty drive, (it took you right to the front
of
the Italian garden...
Notice the Lincoln silhouette in image 1, perhaps this means go up 34th to lincoln.
Where does that put us? Lincoln park is to our right (and the palace
of
the legion
of
honor,
straight ahead is baker beach and just to our left is china beach...
So the question becomes, if not verse 7, which verse...
I
like the lane 222 -GG bridge landmark 222 connection.
if you go to Baker beach the view
of
the bridge is amazing and also from that point
of
view, at night the roadbed forms an arc
of
lights...
hxxp://www.jmg-galleries.com/blog_image ... h_520c.jpg
as do the lights on the suspension cables....
china beach also has its pluses, as you get the same view as baker beach and it has a chinese theme...
lincoln park, also has possibilities for a week or so
I
was thinking the Licoln highway marker was a good match for the object under the table.
hxxp://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/3948 ... 06.jpg?v=0
but it turns out it was replaced in the 90s and the previous one looks less like the object under the table, (at least in the picture
I
saw, but the possiblity is still there the was even a different one in place in 1981...)
So anyway
I
think we are in the right neighborood but there needs to be some more thought as to which verse is correct...
I
would hope that sometime soon someone could go look around montreal to confirm or deny the v7 use there...
2fast4u2c
I don't get how you are saying one finger points at 3 blocks and the other points at 4, but.....
If you invert the picture, the symbols on the collar bones could represent 34 and 40. There is your 34, but then what is the 40?
2fast4u2c
I
don't get how you are saying one finger points at 3 blocks and the other points at 4, but.....
If you invert the picture, the symbols on the collar bones could represent 34 and 40. There is your 34, but then what is the 40?
maltedfalcon
Those are the lat/lon coordinates/
I
think the finger represent blocks/streets....
maltedfalcon
Those are the lat/lon coordinates/
I think the finger represent blocks/streets....
2fast4u2c
using those as lat/long put you out in the atlantic ocean, not san fran.
maltedfalcon
My mistake the lat lon in the pix are other numbers , go read the thread,
you can read all about the numbers 37 38 122 123 which actually feature quite prominantly in the image
These numbers when taken as latitude and longitude form a bounding box that pretty much emcompasses the city / peninsula of San Francisco.
Now since the we have lat and long numbers elsewhere in the image, the question has always been what is she trying to show by where she is pointing
if you look at her fingers she is obviously pointing at something.
remember we reverse the image to make it match the park.
so her left finger now points at the line below 3 blocks and her right finger points at the line below 4 blocks,
I was suggesting perhaps this indicates the number 34
and 34th ave goes straight north to Lincoln ave, china beach, baker beach and lincoln park,
it also takes you to the area that is shown as a map on the forehead of the lady.
lastly if you were in that area and you could see the Ghirradelli sign, (i dont think you can, but if you could, you woud be looking at the back of it...
maltedfalcon
My mistake the lat lon in the pix are other numbers , go read the thread,
you can read all about the numbers 37 38 122 123 which actually feature quite prominantly in the image
These numbers when taken as latitude and longitude form a bounding box that pretty much emcompasses the city / peninsula
of
San Francisco.
Now since the we have lat and long numbers elsewhere in the image, the question has always been what is she trying to show by where she is pointing
if you look at her fingers she is obviously pointing at something.
remember we reverse the image to make it match the park.
so her left finger now points at the line below 3 blocks and her right finger points at the line below 4 blocks,
I
was suggesting perhaps this indicates the number 34
and 34th ave goes straight north to Lincoln ave, china beach, baker beach and lincoln park,
it also takes you to the area that is shown as a map on the forehead
of
the lady.
lastly if you were in that area and you could see the Ghirradelli sign, (
i
dont think you can, but if you could, you woud be looking at the back
of
it...
2fast4u2c
yeah i've read the thread and see the coordinates. I don't doubt for a second that this one is San Fran. I was just looking for clarification on how you came up with 34 using the fingers (i see now). I think that is a stretch to count the number of rows of blocks above the fingers. However, I think you may have stumbled upon something with 34th Ave. What I was getting at was this:
Once you have mirrored the image so that it is oriented correctly, look at the symbols on the collarbones. If you count the points of each you get 34 and 40. If you count the edges you get 34 and 41. Golden Gate Park is between the two sets of symbols. I interpret this to possibly mean limit your search in GGP to the area that falls between 34th and 40th (or 41st) Avenue.
2fast4u2c
yeah
i
've read the thread and see the coordinates.
I
don't doubt for a second that this one is San Fran.
I
was just looking for clarification on how you came up with 34 using the fingers (
i
see now).
I
think that is a stretch to count the number
of
rows
of
blocks above the fingers. However,
I
think you may have stumbled upon something with 34th Ave. What
I
was getting at was this:
Once you have mirrored the image so that it is oriented correctly, look at the symbols on the collarbones. If you count the points
of
each you get 34 and 40. If you count the edges you get 34 and 41. Golden Gate Park is between the two sets
of
symbols.
I
interpret this to possibly mean limit your search in GGP to the area that falls between 34th and 40th (or 41st) Avenue.
slappybuns
malted, what do you think about using verse 5 with this one?
washington street (the 222) is right there not far away from alcatraz. the whole verse sounds like alcatraz to me. could the arc of lights be the golden gate bridge? some tree on alcatraz? for sure you'd need to get permission.
slappybuns
malted, what do you think about using verse 5 with this one?
washington street (the 222) is right there not far away from alcatraz. the whole verse sounds like alcatraz to me. could the arc
of
lights be the golden gate bridge? some tree on alcatraz? for sure you'd need to get permission.
maltedfalcon
Alcatraz isnt called "The Rock" for Kicks.
I think the dirt for the garden on the rock was brought in so they would have a place to stick seeds...
But if you go to baker beach (due north on 34th from GGpark) and wait for dark
the Goldengate bridge forms a beautiful arc of lights...
maltedfalcon
Alcatraz isnt called "The Rock" for Kicks.
I
think the dirt for the garden on the rock was brought in so they would have a place to stick seeds...
But if you go to baker beach (due north on 34th from GGpark) and wait for dark
the Goldengate bridge forms a beautiful arc
of
lights...
mattylaroche
ok, so here is what
I
have come up with so far and
i
'm sorry if
i
am repeating anything already written, but
i
have no time to read all posts since 2004.
image 1 is for san francisco
lat #'s are 37,38
long #'s are 122, 123
the image goes with verse 8
"as you walk the beating
of
the world"
this refers to the "North Beach" area
of
S.F. which was the neighborhood
of
the "beats", (Jack Keroac, Neal Cassady, Alan Ginsberg, and other artsy beatnics), the main streets in this area are Columbus Ave, Broadway, Vallejo and Green Streets.
"Ascend the 92 steps after climbing the grand 200"
i
think this might refer to the Coit tower steps which begin right after the Filbert steps end. Coit tower and these stairs are located on Telegraph Hill which is within walking distance from North Beach. Also, in the image, the leg
of
the table is a sillouete
of
coit tower upside-down.
"pass the compass"
atop
of
telegraph hill is a statue
of
Christopher Colombus. it is possible that he is holding a compass, or there is an image
of
a compass on the statue. One would have to go there and find out, maybe count the steps to confirm because there are other steps in the area. Once atop telegraph hill, just look for the culvert and bridge and follow the directions in the last lines
of
the verse.
mattylaroche
ok, so here is what I have come up with so far and i'm sorry if i am repeating anything already written, but i have no time to read all posts since 2004.
image 1 is for san francisco
lat #'s are 37,38
long #'s are 122, 123
the image goes with verse 8
"as you walk the beating of the world"
this refers to the "North Beach" area of S.F. which was the neighborhood of the "beats", (Jack Keroac, Neal Cassady, Alan Ginsberg, and other artsy beatnics), the main streets in this area are Columbus Ave, Broadway, Vallejo and Green Streets.
"Ascend the 92 steps after climbing the grand 200"
i think this might refer to the Coit tower steps which begin right after the Filbert steps end. Coit tower and these stairs are located on Telegraph Hill which is within walking distance from North Beach. Also, in the image, the leg of the table is a sillouete of coit tower upside-down.
"pass the compass"
atop of telegraph hill is a statue of Christopher Colombus. it is possible that he is holding a compass, or there is an image of a compass on the statue. One would have to go there and find out, maybe count the steps to confirm because there are other steps in the area. Once atop telegraph hill, just look for the culvert and bridge and follow the directions in the last lines of the verse.
bigmattyh
From one matty to another...
You'd probably be well-served to read through the posts. Believe it or not, there have been a lot of smart people working on these for a while.
bigmattyh
From one matty to another...
You'd probably be well-served to read through the posts. Believe it or not, there have been a lot
of
smart people working on these for a while.
fox
Thanks bigmatt
Oh wait, I hope I am one of those smart folks you refer to
Those are good ideas indeed mattyL, but, without more tie ins...I find it VERY difficult to think that V8 goes anywhere except Milwaukee.
Welcome to the funhouse.
fox
Thanks bigmatt
Oh wait,
I
hope
I
am one
of
those smart folks you refer to
Those are good ideas indeed mattyL, but, without more tie ins...
I
find it VERY difficult to think that V8 goes anywhere except Milwaukee.
Welcome to the funhouse.
maltedfalcon
There are 482 Filbert Steps...
mattylaroche
what about the Greenwich steps? how many
of
those?
mattylaroche
what about the Greenwich steps? how many of those?
fox
Not sure about the Greenwich steps....but the "Grand" Staircase in Milwaukee just so happens to have 92 steps. This staircase, as seen below, has 2 'C' shaped sections facing each other. CC is,
of
course, roman numeral for 200. So there we not only have a "Grand" Staircase but we also have our "Grand 200". This all
of
course was discussed some time back.
fox
Not sure about the Greenwich steps....but the "Grand" Staircase in Milwaukee just so happens to have 92 steps. This staircase, as seen below, has 2 'C' shaped sections facing each other. CC is, of course, roman numeral for 200. So there we not only have a "Grand" Staircase but we also have our "Grand 200". This all of course was discussed some time back.
Lafitte
Just read through all posts. Phew! Will someone who has lined up the crossed arms to crossover drive please post your image? Thank you.Lafitte
treasurefindingfamily
Hello all.
I
am new to this hunt and would like to share some
of
my ideas.
I
haven't read through all the post so forgive me if
i
repeat anything.
I
believe (like most everyone does) that image 1 leads to san francisco. And that verse 7 goes with it. My first thoughts were Golden Gate park after seeing the image, but
i
just couldn't get the verse to completely make sense.
I
found myself trying to hard to make things fit. The verse is supposed to lead you to the exact location to dig. Now it could be that so much has changed in the area in 25+ years that the verse won't completely make sense. But looking at the two treasures that have been solved most all
of
the landmarks are still there. So if we assume that most all
of
the landmarks are still there with this treasure, then the verse will only make senses in the right location. It will come together with limited effort.
Recently
i
went to san francisco with the family for a weekend getaway. Two days before the trip
i
was introduced to this hunt by a friend. He had me convinced that it was in golden gate park. So the first day in the city we spent in gg park looking and looking and looking, taking notes and pics.
i
had to beg the family to spend the whole day in the park looking for the treasure. So at the end
of
the day, with no luck
i
promised the family no more treasure hunting. The next day we went to the fishermans warf area. We parked the car near Russian Park and decided to walk down to Ghiradelli square, and thats when
i
noticed it. From Russian Park, looking down Larkin St.
I
could see the Gh
of
the Ghiradelli sign and it was backward just like the G h in the image. Then after we turned down Larkin St.
I
instantly noticed a ship (the Balclutha) in the bay with 3 large masts and behind it in the distance, Alcatraz. After buying some chocolate we crossed Beach St. and went to the Maritime museum. Most
of
it was closed but there were some plaques and historical things to read. One read: “The coldest winter
I
ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.” Many attribute this phrase to Mark Twain, however the origin is unknown. From there you can see a stone wall along side Fort Mason, but
i
didn't walk down it to see if there was a doorway. There is also a stone wall down by the water that looked like a water break. Also from the Maritime National Historic Park you can see part
of
the Golden Gate bridge. Later we went to the ships and there is a steam engine Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka) in the bay. Mark Twain has written about both his interest in steam engines and Paddle Wheel boats on the Mississippi. Then we headed down towards pier 39. By the time we headed back it was dark so
i
couldn't explore the area more. Then homeward bound.
I
think the verse fits very well here. Most everything
i
saw was there in the early 80's.
I
don't know if many people have checked the area but
i
would like to hear from anyone that has. There was also two observation towers (don't know how long they have been there) in the Maritime park. That made me think about the moons in image 1. Moon can be viewed at an observatory (observation tower). Just a thought.
Heres what
i
have for verse 7.
At stone walls door:
Stone wall by Fort Mason or by Water??
[move]
[/move]
The air smells sweet
Ghiradelli square
Not far away
High posts are three
The 3 masts on the Balclutha
Education and Justice
For all to see
Education=Maritime Museum??
Justice=Alcatraz
Sounds from the sky
?? Birds, seagulls, pelicans ??
??planes or jets from the old Alameda air base, the flight path was over the bay??
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
Ace= number 1
High= highway
highway 1 Golden Gate bridge runs north, but first across the bay.
In jewels direction
Is an object
Of
Twains attention
Object
of
Twains attention= Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka)
the jewel is in that direction
Giant pole
?? flagpole ?? observation tower ??
Giant step
From the giant pole, face the jewels direction (paddle wheel boat) and take a giant step....Dig.
these are just my thoughts. again, sorry if
i
repeated anything and sorry if this post is so long.
treasurefindingfamily
Hello all. I am new to this hunt and would like to share some of my ideas. I haven't read through all the post so forgive me if i repeat anything.
I believe (like most everyone does) that image 1 leads to san francisco. And that verse 7 goes with it. My first thoughts were Golden Gate park after seeing the image, but i just couldn't get the verse to completely make sense. I found myself trying to hard to make things fit. The verse is supposed to lead you to the exact location to dig. Now it could be that so much has changed in the area in 25+ years that the verse won't completely make sense. But looking at the two treasures that have been solved most all of the landmarks are still there. So if we assume that most all of the landmarks are still there with this treasure, then the verse will only make senses in the right location. It will come together with limited effort.
Recently i went to san francisco with the family for a weekend getaway. Two days before the trip i was introduced to this hunt by a friend. He had me convinced that it was in golden gate park. So the first day in the city we spent in gg park looking and looking and looking, taking notes and pics. i had to beg the family to spend the whole day in the park looking for the treasure. So at the end of the day, with no luck i promised the family no more treasure hunting. The next day we went to the fishermans warf area. We parked the car near Russian Park and decided to walk down to Ghiradelli square, and thats when i noticed it. From Russian Park, looking down Larkin St. I could see the Gh of the Ghiradelli sign and it was backward just like the G h in the image. Then after we turned down Larkin St. I instantly noticed a ship (the Balclutha) in the bay with 3 large masts and behind it in the distance, Alcatraz. After buying some chocolate we crossed Beach St. and went to the Maritime museum. Most of it was closed but there were some plaques and historical things to read. One read: “The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.” Many attribute this phrase to Mark Twain, however the origin is unknown. From there you can see a stone wall along side Fort Mason, but i didn't walk down it to see if there was a doorway. There is also a stone wall down by the water that looked like a water break. Also from the Maritime National Historic Park you can see part of the Golden Gate bridge. Later we went to the ships and there is a steam engine Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka) in the bay. Mark Twain has written about both his interest in steam engines and Paddle Wheel boats on the Mississippi. Then we headed down towards pier 39. By the time we headed back it was dark so i couldn't explore the area more. Then homeward bound.
I think the verse fits very well here. Most everything i saw was there in the early 80's. I don't know if many people have checked the area but i would like to hear from anyone that has. There was also two observation towers (don't know how long they have been there) in the Maritime park. That made me think about the moons in image 1. Moon can be viewed at an observatory (observation tower). Just a thought.
Heres what i have for verse 7.
At stone walls door:
Stone wall by Fort Mason or by Water??
[move]
[/move]
The air smells sweet
Ghiradelli square
Not far away
High posts are three
The 3 masts on the Balclutha
Education and Justice
For all to see
Education=Maritime Museum??
Justice=Alcatraz
Sounds from the sky
?? Birds, seagulls, pelicans ??
??planes or jets from the old Alameda air base, the flight path was over the bay??
Near ace is high
Running
north, but first across
Ace= number 1
High= highway
highway 1 Golden Gate bridge runs north, but first across the bay.
In jewels direction
Is an object
Of Twains attention
Object of Twains attention= Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka)
the jewel is in that direction
Giant pole
?? flagpole ?? observation tower ??
Giant step
From the giant pole, face the jewels direction (paddle wheel boat) and take a giant step....Dig.
these are just my thoughts. again, sorry if i repeated anything and sorry if this post is so long.
treasurefindingfamily
Hello all. I am new to this hunt and would like to share some of my ideas. I haven't read through all the post so forgive me if i repeat anything.
I believe (like most everyone does) that image 1 leads to san francisco. And that verse 7 goes with it. My first thoughts were Golden Gate park after seeing the image, but i just couldn't get the verse to completely make sense. I found myself trying to hard to make things fit. The verse is supposed to lead you to the exact location to dig. Now it could be that so much has changed in the area in 25+ years that the verse won't completely make sense. But looking at the two treasures that have been solved most all of the landmarks are still there. So if we assume that most all of the landmarks are still there with this treasure, then the verse will only make senses in the right location. It will come together with limited effort.
Recently i went to san francisco with the family for a weekend getaway. Two days before the trip i was introduced to this hunt by a friend. He had me convinced that it was in golden gate park. So the first day in the city we spent in gg park looking and looking and looking, taking notes and pics. i had to beg the family to spend the whole day in the park looking for the treasure. So at the end of the day, with no luck i promised the family no more treasure hunting. The next day we went to the fishermans warf area. We parked the car near Russian Park and decided to walk down to Ghiradelli square, and thats when i noticed it. From Russian Park, looking down Larkin St. I could see the Gh of the Ghiradelli sign and it was backward just like the G h in the image. Then after we turned down Larkin St. I instantly noticed a ship (the Balclutha) in the bay with 3 large masts and behind it in the distance, Alcatraz. After buying some chocolate we crossed Beach St. and went to the Maritime museum. Most of it was closed but there were some plaques and historical things to read. One read: “The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.” Many attribute this phrase to Mark Twain, however the origin is unknown. From there you can see a stone wall along side Fort Mason, but i didn't walk down it to see if there was a doorway. There is also a stone wall down by the water that looked like a water break. Also from the Maritime National Historic Park you can see part of the Golden Gate bridge. Later we went to the ships and there is a steam engine Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka) in the bay. Mark Twain has written about both his interest in steam engines and Paddle Wheel boats on the Mississippi. Then we headed down towards pier 39. By the time we headed back it was dark so i couldn't explore the area more. Then homeward bound.
I think the verse fits very well here. Most everything i saw was there in the early 80's. I don't know if many people have checked the area but i would like to hear from anyone that has. There was also two observation towers (don't know how long they have been there) in the Maritime park. That made me think about the moons in image 1. Moon can be viewed at an observatory (observation tower). Just a thought.
Heres what i have for verse 7.
At stone walls door:
Stone wall by Fort Mason or by Water??
[move]
[/move]
The air smells sweet
Ghiradelli square
Not far away
High posts are three
The 3 masts on the Balclutha
Education and Justice
For all to see
Education=Maritime Museum??
Justice=Alcatraz
Sounds from the sky
?? Birds, seagulls, pelicans ??
??planes or jets from the old Alameda air base, the flight path was over the bay??
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
Ace= number 1
High= highway
highway 1 Golden Gate bridge runs north, but first across the bay.
In jewels direction
Is an object
Of Twains attention
Object of Twains attention= Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka)
the jewel is in that direction
Giant pole
?? flagpole ?? observation tower ??
Giant step
From the giant pole, face the jewels direction (paddle wheel boat) and take a giant step....Dig.
these are just my thoughts. again, sorry if i repeated anything and sorry if this post is so long.
jimerson
I
moved my photos to a new location:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/TheSecret/Aquat ... cPark.html
magesmiley dug at the beach a couple years ago.
jimerson
I moved my photos to a new location:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/TheSecret/Aquat ... cPark.html
magesmiley dug at the beach a couple years ago.
cw0909
found some stuff, cant say yes here is where its at
fort point, zoom in on A
looks sorta like the outline
of
the lady and robe, if you take a walk on the bridge, and look
toward fort mason, you can see the wharf, alactraz
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... e&resnum=1
this flagpole is near fort point, screenshot it from walking
around bridge, the clock is at toll point at entrance to bridge from
the fort side
cw0909
found some stuff, cant say yes here is where its at
fort point, zoom in on A
looks sorta like the outline of the lady and robe, if you take a walk on the bridge, and look
toward fort mason, you can see the wharf, alactraz
hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=na ... e&resnum=1
this flagpole is near fort point, screenshot it from walking
around bridge, the clock is at toll point at entrance to bridge from
the fort side
maltedfalcon
The fort point area and gg bridge are indicated in the picture
The ladies forhead is the penninsula, her hair is the water and her part is the bridge.
so this is very possible
maltedfalcon
treasurefindingfamily wrote::
In jewels direction
Is an object
Of Twains attention
Object of Twains attention= Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka)
the jewel is in that direction
need to remember the paddle wheel boat moves and is not in the location it was in the 80's
Even if it was moved from one side of the doc to the other. that change of angle would make a 20-30 foot direction change at the shore...
So someone needs to find exactly where it was tied up in the 82 if you want to use it as a landmark..
maltedfalcon
treasurefindingfamily wrote::
In jewels direction
Is an object
Of
Twains attention
Object
of
Twains attention= Paddle Wheel boat (Eureka)
the jewel is in that direction
need to remember the paddle wheel boat moves and is not in the location it was in the 80's
Even if it was moved from one side
of
the doc to the other. that change
of
angle would make a 20-30 foot direction change at the shore...
So someone needs to find exactly where it was tied up in the 82 if you want to use it as a landmark..
maltedfalcon
Lafitte wrote::
Just read through all posts. Phew! Will someone who has lined up the crossed arms to crossover drive please post your image? Thank you.Lafitte
it was me, if you reverse the image to make the G h forward I thought why not fiip it also and see what happens
and when I did the crossed over arms lined up with crossover ave...
Does that mean anything or is it just a coincidence? I dont know..
maltedfalcon
Lafitte wrote::
Just read through all posts. Phew! Will someone who has lined up the crossed arms to crossover drive please post your image? Thank you.Lafitte
it was me, if you reverse the image to make the G h forward
I
thought why not fiip it also and see what happens
and when
I
did the crossed over arms lined up with crossover ave...
Does that mean anything or is it just a coincidence?
I
dont know..
john256
Doesn't it look like there are letters above and below the bars
of
the window in the rocks?
I
haven't found this discussed anywhere in the thread. Does anyone have a guess at what to make
of
those.
Also, there was one post noting what looks like a lion's paw in the rocks but
I
have not heard mentioned what looks to me like a face turned to the side, with the forehead just touching the lower left corner
of
the picture
of
the same window in the rocks. The surrounding rocks even look a bit to me like a robe to go with the face.
The circle pattern surrounding much
of
the dragon make me think
of
a Japanese rock garden.
I
have a business trip to SF the week
of
June 8 so became inspired to catch up on this one.
john256
Doesn't it look like there are letters above and below the bars of the window in the rocks? I haven't found this discussed anywhere in the thread. Does anyone have a guess at what to make of those.
Also, there was one post noting what looks like a lion's paw in the rocks but I have not heard mentioned what looks to me like a face turned to the side, with the forehead just touching the lower left corner of the picture of the same window in the rocks. The surrounding rocks even look a bit to me like a robe to go with the face.
The circle pattern surrounding much of the dragon make me think of a Japanese rock garden.
I have a business trip to SF the week of June 8 so became inspired to catch up on this one.
cw0909
i
found this may help you in your look around while in SF, or maybe someone else will spot something
Golden Gate Bridge Virtual Walking Tours:
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/golden_gate_bridge.htm
cw0909
i found this may help you in your look around while in SF, or maybe someone else will spot something
Golden Gate Bridge Virtual Walking Tours:
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/golden_gate_bridge.htm
john256
Thank you cw0909--that site looks helpful.
I
decided the background around the dragon looks like the tree background on the map
of
Golden Gate park posted earlier, so
I
'm pretty convinced it does represent the park, but
I
haven't been able to match the shape
of
the dragon to any
of
the roads through the park as
I
thought others had been able to do. Can anyone match specific features? One loop in the center does seem to align with Strawberry Hill but that's about all
I
could find.
John
john256
Thank you cw0909--that site looks helpful.
I decided the background around the dragon looks like the tree background on the map of Golden Gate park posted earlier, so I'm pretty convinced it does represent the park, but I haven't been able to match the shape of the dragon to any of the roads through the park as I thought others had been able to do. Can anyone match specific features? One loop in the center does seem to align with Strawberry Hill but that's about all I could find.
John
cw0909
hey if you need more help just ask
we are here to help you.
Qs ,theories, ect.
maltedfalcon
john256 wrote::
Thank you cw0909--that site looks helpful.
I
decided the background around the dragon looks like the tree background on the map
of
Golden Gate park posted earlier, so
I
'm pretty convinced it does represent the park, but
I
haven't been able to match the shape
of
the dragon to any
of
the roads through the park as
I
thought others had been able to do. Can anyone match specific features? One loop in the center does seem to align with Strawberry Hill but that's about all
I
could find.
John
Remember to reverse the map so that the Gh are forward, then yes, many features
of
the map from the Great Highway, - to the polo field to strawberry hill and others line up...
especially the outline
of
the park, it fits the map perfect( The outside edge
of
GGpark is not a perfect rectangle)
maltedfalcon
john256 wrote::
Thank you cw0909--that site looks helpful.
I decided the background around the dragon looks like the tree background on the map of Golden Gate park posted earlier, so I'm pretty convinced it does represent the park, but I haven't been able to match the shape of the dragon to any of the roads through the park as I thought others had been able to do. Can anyone match specific features? One loop in the center does seem to align with Strawberry Hill but that's about all I could find.
John
Remember to reverse the map so that the Gh are forward, then yes, many features of the map from the Great Highway, - to the polo field to strawberry hill and others line up...
especially the outline of the park, it fits the map perfect( The outside edge of GGpark is not a perfect rectangle)
maltedfalcon
anybody up for a Get-together in SF to chat about san francisco locations, possibilites. - Say Feb, mar or april? maybe do some on the ground searching?
fox
I
'm all in but unfortunately
I
would have to convince my wife we could afford such an excursion. Lol
fox
I'm all in but unfortunately I would have to convince my wife we could afford such an excursion. Lol
maltedfalcon
where would you be coming from?
goatlady
We are almost next door Mr Fox! Willcox Az here.
Dan Amrich
Hi all. After 13 years around but not in San Francisco, I recently moved from the SF Bay Area down to LA for my job. I am still bummed that there's clearly something in SF which can't be found, even though so many people seem so close to finding it.
I went through the thread (32 pages, yowza) and may have missed this, but...her sleeves have blue squares around the cuffs. They are not equal -- 18 squares on one arm, 20 on the other. I was trying to find some significance to the year 1820, but not much luck, other than people existed in SF then.
Her fingers point to the bottom of the eighth square on one arm and the bottom of the fifth square on another (or perhaps the top of the tenth square and the top of the 7th square). Unless, of course, this too is reversed and the right sleeve in the portrait should be viewed first, making her appear to point to squares 6 and 7 -- 1967 being the infamous Summer of Love, for which SF was the cultural center. Seems a long way to go for another SF confirmer, but I don't currently have any other link that comes to mind.
Alternately, they are squares...or blocks. Could be a confirmer to the number of city blocks you have to travel in conjunction with the verse instructions? Seems a longshot.
Regardless, I don't feel the squares being uneven is accidental, and I feel strongly that the hand placement is important and. Kit Williams taught me that much.
Has a significance of these sleeve elements been considered and I missed it? So many people have come up with so much plausible information it's hard to imagine anything's been overlooked, and I saw a few other notes on the sleeves and her hand positions (outline of CA, among others) but I haven't seen too much discussion on my points.
forest_blight
I am certain that it has been suggested the 38 refers to one of the bounding latitudes of SF (37 and 38). Now, given that 38 is already in her hair and there is no need for a second one, you are right that there may be some other/further significance to her sleeves.
maltedfalcon
oh crap,
I think I just figured out where the SF casque is....
I think I will be heading to SF next week...
maltedfalcon
not totally definite, but a better idea than I've had in a couple years...
forest_blight
Good luck maltedfalcon!!!
(Take pictures.)
maltedfalcon
I will take video
I have a little flip camera.
maltedfalcon
Ok checked my Schedule. and Wednesday July 7th is a go for heading to SF to dig. (7/7 for you numerologist types...)
SF is a 2.5 hour trip from my house.
Sunrise is 5:55 am on that day. So I plan to leave at 3:30 am
Accomplishing several things.
1 beating the traffic (it is a work day)
2 arriving on site at dawn minimizing muggle traffic.
3 arriving before any public works people start their day.
That being said, everybody who wants to is welcome to show up.
Im bringing my kids, now 15 and 18 who have put up with many of Dad's trips to SF to dig holes.
If you want to show up - let me know and I can set up a location to meet up.
maltedfalcon
something that always bugged me about my solution in GGPark
is there was no image in the picture that you could see from the dig site.
i.e. the cleveland picture has the image of the wall in it
the chicago picture has the image of the fixture in it.
Not actually having been on the site. but I thing there are at least two images in the picture you should be able to see from the location.
and the Drive a long way turn widdershins, theory works.
Jambone
Good luck! I'm anxiously waiting to hear your theory (after the dig of course).
Hirudiniforme
Great luck to you maltedfalcon... someone needs to get in the paper again so the chase will be reignited! I wanna see your pic in the Chronicle!
fox
Dig it up oh Great Falcon of Maltedland!
boogieman
Not sure, but I think I have a tear in my eye.
An image from the dig site is a major, major confirmer. Go get it Maltedfalcon Clan. I believe, I believe
digger7
Good luck, MF. We will be interested in your theory whether or not it pans out.
frishkie
Living vicariously, waiting with bated breath.
Good luck MF!
Lafitte
Go,Go,Go,Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maltedfalcon
No joy in Golden Gate Land.
I think I made progress, but Its possible 30 years of Erosion has erased the location.
I will put the image stuff in this thread and the verse stuff in the verse 7 thread.
I see her fingers pointing at blocks 3 and 4, to the left of her is a silhouette of Lincoln.
above her is a window in a cliff, possibly denoting a cliff house...
also of course in her hairline is a map of the headlands of the golden gate.
Behind her are cliffs above the ocean and one of the rocks seems to have a strangely shaped hole in it.
under the table top is another strange silhouette.
Going with the Widdershins theory, You start at the iconic image, drive a long way straight and then reach the first part of the verse and turn left and then finish the verse at the dig spot.
Starting at Golden Gate Park, I headed north on 34th ave. which runs straight north from the park until it reaches. Lincoln park.
at the top of Lincoln park, it arrives at the Palace of the Legion of honor. a stone building with a walled courtyard and a large doorway.
the road dead ends there and you can turn left on camino del mar. which in itself only goes a short distance before dead ending into a walkway.
But back to the image. Lincoln park /golfcourse / Palace of the Legion of Honor was built on a grave yard. (at the turn of the century all the bodies/caskets/gravestones were moved.)
(its illegal to be buried in San Francisco now )
There are though a few monuments still in place. and directly opposite the palace of the legion of honor, in the grass of the golf course Is a small fenced off area with a monument.
from just one angle (if you were standing at the farthest point accoss the fountain from the entrance. you can look at this monument and it is very possibly the silhouette under the table.
its like a 90-95% match. ( I will post a picture as soon as I get them downloaded)
On to Verse 7...
legionnaire
Hi,
Longtime lurker here, and had not logged in at all for months. Anyway after hearing about this book and seeing the verses a couple of years ago, I became convinced it was near the Legion of Honor as well (hence my nickname). Anyway, I signed up here, read a few posts, thought everyone here had better ideas than I had, so I dropped off, only coming back occasionally to see if anyone made any progress. But now that it seems that other people might have similar ideas, I thought I'd share what I was thinking at the time.
I came to think it was near the "Legion of Honor" because of the two statues our front. "Object of Twain's attention" was the first phrase I honed in on because I know a bit about Twain and happen to live in SF, and knew that the book he was most proud of was "Personal recollections of Joan of Arc", "Joan of Arc" is the statue across from "El Cid" in front of the Legion of Honor. I too looked at that statue you referenced (I think it's the one you're referencing. It's by itself in the middle of the golf course, just below the Legion of Honor) as possibly being the silhouette. It's called "The Seaman's Memorial". Here's a link to a crappy photo:
hxxp://www.outsidelands.org/seamans-memorial.php
. At the time I visited it, it wasn't behind a fence, so I have some close up photos I can dig up. It didn't look exactly like the leg to me, but at the time, I thought you all were way ahead of me so I was only looking for an exact match.
The reasoning that brought me to the Seaman's Memorial was:
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- start w/ Joan (iirc she is northernmost)
Giant pole
- draw line to 'pole'. There's a sculpture called 'Big Red' there now, but it looks like where there would have been a flagpole at one time. (And I *think* I recall finding a photo to corroborate it when I originally looked)
Giant step
- step off the ledge where the turnabout is
To the place
The casque is kept.
- draw a (more-or-less) straight line to the Seaman's Memorial
Map:
The 'giant step' is the ledge between the 'pole' and the Seaman's memorial.
Statue:
It's still a stretch, but there's at least one other person out there who might be thinking like I was. Close ups of the statue seemed to have nothing to do with anything in the photo. The text was hard to read etc., the dirt around it was fairly loose, but with all press in recent years about remains being found up in the park, I don't think anyone would take kindly to major excavation. The author couldn't have know it at the time though.
Anyway, other stuff I thought at the time was 'sounds from the sky' made me think of Crissy Field which is nearby. It used to be an airport (Lindbergh landed there), but birds work too. I think everyone is in agreement that Highway 1 is a close match for a lot of this. Anyway, I jotted a bunch of notes down. If I find them or remember them, I'll check back into this thread more regularly. Like I said, I live in SF, so if someone has a particularly promising thing to go check out, it's not a big deal for me. If I get a chance I'll find those photos and share, maybe take some more next time I'm near.
legionnaire
Here's a photo where there was a flagpole. It's not the photo I recall, but from the angle it's has to be in the same place the 'Big Red' sculpture is now.
WhiteRabbit
A few random thoughts on Golden Gate / V7.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
This reminded me of the scene in Shakespeare where Duncan turns up at Macbeth's place.
This castle hath a pleasant seat; the air nimbly and sweetly recommends itself unto our gentle senses.
The initial letters of the first five lines are an anagram of "Thane" (Macbeth was Thane of Cawdor), followed by FS (SF).
I imagined image 1 as a hand-wringing Lady Macbeth type:
...so I was interested when someone mentioned the
Shakespeare Garden
in GGP.
...an object of Twain's attention
Twain wrote a book on
Shakespeare
.
There's a
sundial
...
...and some benches...("pleasant seat"?
This one
has a detail which reminded me of the spiral on the rose.)
Sounds [like] from the sky
There are various Shakespearean flower quotes dotted around.
...can't guarantee if that particular one's there - be nice if it was, but it just turned up in some general Google image search for Golden Gate Park and the Shakespeare Garden. But they seem to have stuff like that. I'd be interested to see if they had this one:
Where the bee sucks there suck I
In a cowslip's bell I lie
Ariel - sounds like Aerial
Near ace is high
I think someone suggested "Near acers" in connection with another location, but maybe there are/were also acers in GGP.
Alternatively, there's this "Ace of Clubs"...
The pillars-in-archway theme reminded me of image 4, which set me off looking for 1881 connections again.
(Portrait by
Gilbert
).
There are similar features in images 1 & 11:
(11 moons in image 1, 1 moon in image 11)
(Could be a connection with tea. GGP tea garden / rose garden / tea rose.)
(The "HG", the dragon (fire/heat) and the litany reference to the "silver moon" remind me of quicksilver / mercury / thermometer. Apparently this was often represented as a serpent in alchemy - reminds me of the image 11
snake-cup
.)
Giant pole
Giant step
Wondered about "Giants pet", a (golden) goose, which Jack retrieved using a giant pole / beanstalk. Geese at Stow Lake, with its Chinese pavilion. (The Corporate Giants entry is all about Jack and the beanstalk.)
maltedfalcon
you know I never ever before thought of those similarities.
very interesting.
Is it my imagination or did your last post get suddenly longer.
Dont go back and massively change your old ones, just add a new reply.
I might skip over something important you wrote, because I "Know" I already read that reply...
slappybuns
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nswHPYi_dEw/S ... G_3871.JPG
does this clock look like the one in the image?
here's the location...in new york
hxxp://lostnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/200 ... ville.html
maltedfalcon
The winder on the one in the picture is different
more bell like...
slappybuns
thanks malted, they are all starting to get boggled in my head......but wanted to show it, just in case
WhiteRabbit
Has Washington DC been considered for this image...? There seems to have been some discussion of the place in the past, but it seems to have been dropped, and I haven't seen it suggested for this one. The 38 is solid though, and it's not like you couldn't find 77s if you wanted.
The rose always reminded me of a flintlock somehow.
Here's George Washington's Hawkins.
The hands are pointing to rows 4 and 3 - DC...?
(I know you'd expect something a lot better than that. Just wondering what possible candidates for DC there might be to go with my idle speculation on V2. I'm curious how the Chinese fair folk, Yi & co, don't show on the map, and was reading about the special status of DC which isn't in any State.)
slappybuns
wonder if that rose is a symbol for Tokyo Rose, female broadcaster of japanese propaganda?
so it would be around the japanese tea garden and that picket fence that mark twain wrote about
slappybuns
but you'd have to do some convincing to get this away from golden gate park because of the shape of the park in image 1,, and her hands for crossover drive,
near the japanese tea garden and the
Bell Gate entry
and the
moon
bridge
notice his name "
Shinshi
chi Nakatani
---(Tsao
-shen
)
and "slender,
golden
people" (
golden
gate park)
hxxp://www.timeshutter.com/image/arch-b ... california
"From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl;
Chaste, perfect as the silver
moon"
i haven't really gone back over image 1 threads, but i remember finding the "bar door" (image in the rocks) at one of the entrances to golden gate park, i think it might have been part of a hospital or doctor's office, (i can't remember til i go back thru the threads)
but also, i like #1 (highway one) for "
On the
first
morning of the
first
spring day, "
number 1 (highway)=first
and/or it could be pointing to
Image 1- ( the first image)
because i do believe BP tried to give obscure hints, and we might not be reading them right, but they are there
slappybuns
looking closer at your map whiterabbit, her shoulders could be sutro or lincoln park
kind of liked this streetlamp for the bell shape, but still like the bell gate at the japanese gardens
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... etlamp.jpg
giant pole?
did you know there is a dragon pearl tea?..........
hxxp://www.harney.com/Dragon-Pearl-Jasm ... ducts/215/
Archery: An archery field lies just north of the golf course. Lessons and equipment (for rent or purchase) are available at the nearby San Francisco Archery Shop. The field is at Fulton St. and 47th Ave. The shop is at 3795 Balboa St., (
mark twain and fishing go together (
giant
fishing
pole
)
hxxp://www.sanfranciscodays.com/golden- ... ly-casting
is that a dragon on the senior center?
maybe he says "an object of twain's attention" like that because twain didn't like golf: "golf is a good walk spoiled"
but then i like frogs, (giant leap) (calaveras frogs, twain), but i only found this one pic so far:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/esmecat/1486769264/
slappybuns
looking closer at your map whiterabbit, her shoulders could be sutro or lincoln park
kind of liked this streetlamp for the bell shape, but still like the bell gate at the japanese gardens
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... etlamp.jpg
giant pole?
did you know there is a dragon pearl tea?..........
hxxp://www.harney.com/Dragon-Pearl-Jasm ... ducts/215/
Archery: An archery field lies just north of the golf course. Lessons and equipment (for rent or purchase) are available at the nearby San Francisco Archery Shop. The field is at Fulton St. and 47th Ave. The shop is at 3795 Balboa St., (
mark twain and fishing go together (
giant
fishing
pole
)
hxxp://www.sanfranciscodays.com/golden- ... ly-casting
is that a dragon on the
senior
center?
maybe he says "an object of twain's attention" like that because twain didn't like golf: "golf is a good walk spoiled"
but then i like frogs, (giant leap) (calaveras frogs, twain), but i only found this one pic so far:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/esmecat/1486769264/
slappybuns
hxxp://www.shutterstock.com/pic-6022021 ... cisco.html
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/vicster/448803841/
look at the design on the head and the face and neck.........i would look behind this
this looks like the hot tub on p. 65
hxxp://www.beachcalifornia.com/sanfran6.html
"prince"
"bearing the great bow"
hxxp://www.sanfranshuttletours.com/sigh ... 709956.jpg
the bo tree or bodhi tree that buddha sits under........
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi_Tree
would like to find a good picture of the bottom of the statue to see if it has serpents or flowering vines, like the top and the base of lotus leaves
or fig leaves
i believe the table is a stone lantern, think the bottom is just reflection from a pond, and maybe it's saying "tea" time, for the tea house (is the tea house the same as a temple?)
a "dragon" protects buddhism:
"DRAGON MYTHOLOGY. A mythological animal of Chinese origin, and a member of the NAGA (Sanskrit) family of serpentine creatures who protect Buddhism.
e Chinese had incorporated the dragon into Buddhist thought and iconography as a protector of the various Buddha and the Buddhist law. These traditions were adopted by the Japanese (Buddhism did not arrive in Japan until the mid-6th century AD). In both China and Japan, the character for "dragon" (see orange-colored ideogram at top of page) is used often in temple names, and dragon carvings adorn many temple structures. Most Japanese Zen temples, moreover, have a dragon painted on the ceiling of their assembly halls. "
the gift shop was a two story house.........home? home loving
trying to get a better picture of this fountain, can't tell if they are frogs (leap)
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/ojbyrne/17 ... otostream/
hxxp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... e_Park.JPG
hxxp://www.nakatanifamily.com/shinshich ... build.html
the satori (?) has flowering vines around it
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/davesf/117 ... otostream/
rocks:
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/edpuskas/4099776210/
WhiteRabbit
I don't think this will convince you, but here it is anyway. The blue house next to the Conan Doyle plaque, 2135 Sacramento. (I've been considering the line "Between two arms extended" and the pearl-like bulge on the curve of her wrist, more evident in the book than in this scan. Incidentally here's the
Tsao-Shen
myth.)
slappybuns
the arms aren't extended they are crossed :)
but hey thanks for that "zao shen" , that helps with the "home loving stuff"
but whiterabbit, i think it fits with the guy who did the japanese tea room, shinataka or whatever (see above post)
you're gonna force me to find that place with the bars around the entrance to the golden gate, aren't ya?
i think the buddha head looks like the design in the dress
i know malted is gonna fight it being anywhere inside the garden
.............but
everyone keeps saying keep it simple............the park is in the image, japanese tea room is in the park.........can't get much simpler :)
oh was thinking "the air smells sweet", could be baker street, and don't forget object (something you can see or touch) can also be something you "ob ject" to (something you dislike or disapprove of.........like twain said "golf is a good walk spoiled")
long time ago forest posted a pic of "madonna of the rocks" or "virgin of the rocks" which da vinci painted for san francesco church (temple)....and that would go with "chaste, perfect":
hxxp://www.lairweb.org.nz/leonardo/rocks.html
the temple gate:
hxxp://indospectrum.com/photo/cd018_gate_and_sculpture2
there is a door at the top there, can't get a good look at it
wonder if the point about "honey" could be for "maple" lane:
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SF-photos ... -lane.html
it kindof looks like the designs in the dress
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SF-photos ... ntern.html
look my FROG! (leap) and the silver flowering vines!!
hxxp://www.inetours.com/Pages/SF-photos ... laque.html
an idea for the "high posts are three"-------the temple gate
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmon
here's the bar door that i found before, it's a landmark
hxxp://www.noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf201.asp
couldn't the largest lantern be considered a giant (and in the moon viewing garden), plus it says something about "peace" , ( i think it is like 9000 pounds)
hxxp://sanfrancisco.about.com/od/photog ... Garden.htm
WhiteRabbit
Chinoiserie Schminoiserie. ;) What about May 1913? What about Edwin? What about RLS?
(Found a curious link between Edwin Booth and Lincoln today...he saved his son's life.)
hxxp://www.historynet.com/edwin-booth-s ... s-life.htm
slappybuns
lol, you're working a different verse
if the dress is GGP, then her fingers are pointing across the road, one side fulton and the other side lincoln way, and they are on the 3 & 4, so either 34th street? or 43rd street? or 3rd avenue or 4th avenue?
that's around the golf courses......but haven't seen anything that would be asian, except that dragon on the senior center.........
i think jimerson posted this pic on stanyon, where it looks there is a giant pole (behind the table), and you could just leap over that gate:
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/TheSecret/Stany ... ages/0.jpg
i kind of like the idea of sunset blvd.
twain wanted to turn "don quixote" into a play:
hxxp://dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000013.htm
and that is close to the japanese tea garden
twain wrote about shakespeare too
and he wrote "1601" and the senior center with the dragon (scroll way down) is 6101............:
hxxp://www.sanfranciscodays.com/golden- ... ly-casting
slappybuns
sorry guys, for some reason had "giant leap" in my head...........but that verse says "giant step"...........so0RrRy
that's why i kept thinking of frogs
slappybuns
jimerson did you ever dig by the horses tail?
does anyone know? twain did write "A Horse's Tale"
still...not asian
thinking of the "
RUNNING
" north...............a jogging path?
also, i mentioned 34 and 43 street, but should have mentioned 3rd and 4th avenue. i saw a big telephone pole on 4th and fulton
jimerson
I didn't dig under the horse's tail. I was thinking "giant pole" as the tree at the top of the hill above the horse and "giant step" would be the horse taking a step, and one of the front feet is up, kind of taking a step. But that "dirt" was very solid even after I soaked it with 5 gallons of water. The Horseshoe Pits have been recently restored so I doubt permission would be granted to dig now. I am convinced Malted's method of following a path and iconic image is correct. I think GGP on the dress is the icon, therefore not the treasure ground. And I am still sticking with verse 7. My next trip will be to China Beach Park just because I like the name and the bridge can be seen from there.
WhiteRabbit
jimerson wrote::
My next trip will be to China Beach Park just because I like the name.
Unknown:
Have some cool clear water
(Drink a little drip drip drip drip drink a little)
(Water coolin' me)
(OK, I'll abandon SF's Lafayette for now.)
Fresh look at Verse 6 / Image 1
Consider Chicago. As far as I understand, it worked like this.
1
Where M and B are set in stone
– Symphony Hall
2
And to Congress, R is known
- Roosevelt University
3
L sits and left
- Lincoln
4
Beyond his shoulder
- Casque
There doesn’t seem to be a particularly logical trail in these first few lines – they just indicate various landmarks close to the spot. Or at any rate, Roosevelt overshoots the trail a bit.
Apply a similar reasoning to V6:
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
(Paraphrase of Stevenson’s Treasure Island.)
Stevenson statue – 1
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
(May 1913 and Edwin/Edwina both connect with Edwin Booth. May 1913 was the foundation of ‘Equity’, which took root at his house.)
Edwin Booth plaque – 2.
Freedom at the birth of a century
Together with 1913, hints at the Emancipation Proclamation. There are a couple of streets shown on the above map which might connect with this – Clay St, below (1) (named after Henry Clay, who helped to draft it) or Quincy St, by St Mary's (“President Abraham Lincoln based the Emancipation Proclamation on
John Quincy's
arguments”).
Was wondering about St Mary’s Square – has a statue of
Sun Yat-Sen
.
* * * * *
Sounds like an interesting spot. Was recently wondering about V6s "cool, clear song of water" and
Cool, Cool Water
by the Beach Boys.
slappybuns
jimerson! it's good to know you are still out there! since you live there, something we say might click for you even if we say it totally out of ignorance!
i can understand why you are trying somewhere different than GGP because of it saying "cathay", and that's china and not japan......but
because the whole picture seems like the map to GGP, i want to stay there
maybe baker street is the "air smells sweet"
and the asian museum was right by the de young museum (or was it a wing in the de young museum?)
and the rose garden is right by #1 and it is across the street from the museums (off of john f. kennedy dr., education and justice?) (or that could be for lincoln way..)
and if you use the rose on the table for the rose garden and her cuff as a road in the park, then maybe it is close to the museums
and in the book it say's "slender,
golden
people"
all the moons, and it having a moon viewing garden...
near "ace is high".....the casino near the conservatory, constructed by the Daemon brothers, lol (daemon runyon) ?:
hxxp://www.outsidelands.org/casino.php
right now i'm torn between both areas of the park, because i like the golf courses, because i think BP played, and i think admunsen (north and south pole)(but he is norwegian) is somewhere around there
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=21336
there's a big light pole there
and it is close to the Great Highway that Malted likes (Gh)
i am liking the "running" for a jogging trail :)
but, anyway, i'm glad you are still hunting
this is neat about sutro:
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Marker.asp?Marker=21262
placed by "native sons of the golden west"
is there a unicorn in GGP...they are a symbol of chastity , maybe the carousel
WhiteRabbit
jstarr wrote::
Freedom at the birth of a century - paraphrase of lines from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address - “...this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom”
Unknown:
One of Sun's major legacies was his political philosophy, the Three Principles of the People...Sun often said that the formulation of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, “government of the people, by the people, for the people”, had been the inspiration for the Three Principles of the People
White house close at hand
slappybuns
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/judywatt/7166461/
symbol of purity, virginal
hey guys, i might not be far off with the unicorn, look, it's the symbol for the yin/yang in chinese:
and remember there is one in the dress
"The Chinese unicorn does not have the fierceness of western unicorns; it is gentle, not even treading on a blade of grass. Its backward horn is fleshy-tipped, indicating it was not used for attack. The creature is the legendary (orKy-lin Ki-lin or Qilin) of China, one of the Four Spiritually Endowed Creatures. Its appearance is that of a deer-like animal with scales, an oxtail, and a furry horn on its forehead.
It is a yin-yang (ki – male, lin – female) fertility symbol of wisdom, gentleness, benevolence, good will, felicity, longevity,...."
hxxp://www.likeacat.com/Unicorn-Symbolism_ep_72-1.html
or maybe where the yin-yang symbol, (carosel) SE part of park, rose garden-Middle North of park, then the pearl would be over by stanyan street or fulton street (
an object of twain's attention- fulton steamboat?
just thinking
jimerson
hxxp://www.cobbcrew.org/TheSecret/ggparkmap-overlay.jpg
The map seems to fit best in this orientation. This puts the yin-yang symbol near the Senior Center (Fulton & 37th).
slappybuns
thank you jimerson!
fox
That map is a PERFECT fit. If it isn't located in GGP...then I don't know where it could be.
WhiteRabbit
Good call jimerson.
WhiteRabbit
I'm a GGP convert now. Indulge me while I give this location the V6 treatment.
Lines 1-6, RLS. Could simply be SF. Treasure Island - stuff buried on beaches. (Chapter 6 of his
In the South Seas
begins: "The ocean beach of Apemama was our daily resort.")
Hear the cool, clear song of water
Harken to the words
"Cool, clear water" is a quote from "Cool, cool water" by the Beach Boys.
Freedom at the birth of a century
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
These lines refer to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, and the formation of the
Actor's Equity Association
, which was started by a group called
The Players
founded by Edwin Booth.
The spot shown above is at the intersection of
Lincoln
and
La Playa
.
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand
(Pending. "Fair remuneration" is from the Equity Handbook - "Equity was founded and is run by members in order to ensure safe and beneficial working conditions and fair remuneration for professional Actors and Stage Managers." There's a white house nearby from which you can see everything in this post.)
(Hey Slappy, remember the Spirit of 76...? The
gas stations
were named after her. There's one at this intersection. See the 76 in the rose...?)
(...sign nearby...)
slappybuns
didn't know there was a chinese pavillion at stow lake:
hxxp://www.pbase.com/hjsteed/sf_stow_lake
hxxp://www.inside-guide-to-san-francisc ... sportation
scroll down (lol, scroll) to see close up of dragon on pavillion
just read it was given in 1981........is that too late for the puzzle?
hxxp://poeticshutterbug.blogspot.com/20 ... -park.html
here's a good site for the history of the park:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/documents/ParkHistory.pdf
(ugh francis drake again), but the cross is 30 feet high, made with 3 pieces of stone...high posts are three?
hxxp://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5B8485F0D3
strybing is said to be a silk merchant, and the arboretum has a moon viewing garden:
hxxp://www.sfbotanicalgarden.org/ye/pdf ... BW_Map.pdf
hmmm, mark twain and harriet beecher stow(e) were neighbors
hxxp://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.or ... faqs.shtml
slappybuns
found out hsi wang mu is also called "yin"
and found that the island in the japanese tea garden is called "island of eternal youth" , which made me think of "peaches of immortality" from p. 18
hxxp://www.chicagohotels.org/japanese_tea_garden.html
was looking for peach trees in the park but then read that the "peaches of immortality grow on a collossal tree", also reading about the peaches of immortality there was something about "entering a
gate"
the redwood tree area? collossal tree
i know you guys don't like using the story, but just want to put these ideas down just in case it clicks for someone
p. 28--from the place where the sun was setting--------sunset blvd. , or just saying china
p. 28--i heard them say goodbye-----exit?----
gate?
p. 9 from west, at close of day (sunset)...........china? sunset boulevard? or time to leave? gate?
p. 18--impossibly distant cathay-------impossibly?........not possible?
p. 17---joined by a thirteenth------there's no thirteenth avenue, goes from 12th, funston, #1, 14th (or thats how i see it
)
p. 17-filigreed with serpents and flowering vines of silver
the asian museum's name was "chong moon lee"
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
the Gh on the dress sits directly on top of the Great highway in the park
it lines up perfectly with the tourist map of GGpark available in the 80's and is in the same font... and that covered it for me.
I still like this spot. Forget the verse if you prefer, but the image matches alone are worth a closer look. How 'bout this, malted...
Here's the GGP map. The main road along the bottom border is Lincoln Way. The road up the left border is Great Highway - the "Gh".
Take a closer look at that "h" near the pearl. It matches the intersection of Lincoln Way and Martin Luther King Jr Drive at this point. (This was called South Drive at the time.)
At this location you can see the rose (garage left) and the dragon scales (sign right).
(Why the "h"...? Maybe it's because this image corresponds to
Gem
ini, the two twins.)
shecrab
That "h" is probably not an h at all, but could be the symbol for Saturn. It's backwards, but so is the G.
The symbols arranged around the rectangle on the lady's dress are very odd. They are not all "real" symbols. Some are, but I have an idea that this may be either a coincidence or a giant red herring.
For instance, above the backwards H there is a circle/square with dots inside. This is a hobo sign meaning "here lives a man with a bad temper". That may be a joke of some kind that Palencar put in the painting. I would doubt their veracity as a clue for casque location. The two above the G don't have any meaning I could find. By themselves, the square with the dot inside can be a hobo sign that means danger, and the triangle is a meteorological sign meaning "ice granules." Other than that, there seems to be no good reason BP or JJP would want to warn us against ice.
Of course, the roman numerals going down the sides are I II III and I II II, 123 and 122 respectively. There is a yin-yang symbol under the woman's left hand. There are two more roman numerals below that, but upside down: 11 and 5. (or 6 and 5---it's very hard to tell.) Below those, are the letters X and A. Then on the left, three circles, which is the symbol for the Holy Trinity, and something that looks like a line drawing of a telephone. I have an extensive symbol dictionary and this symbol does not appear in it. Maybe it means "pay phone?" Below those two are on the left, a symbol meaning "autumn" and on the right a rectangle with a cross inside--this is not a known symbol for anything in particular either. At the bottom of her dress is two half-circles, joined by a horizontal line, another bogus symbol.
animal painter
animal painter wrote::
Just to show the use of the same font in Image 1
as the Ghirardelli Square sign...seen backwards from
North Point St....headed toward Aquatic Park.
AP
This is just too much of a coincidence to ignore....
slappybuns
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/13877445@N06/5025304350/
cw0909
i did this in V6 too,sorry tried to delete it, for some reason it wouldnt let me
thought i would walk from GG pk,to the Ghirardelli sign ,and see what i can see
mostly i went,by the google dir it is 2.8 mi
took a detour over to new century and the sgt pk
hxxp://tinyurl.com/6aqfqwn
Ghirardelli sign, the G & h backwards
from bay and larkin,at russian hill pk
hxxp://tinyurl.com/67xr33s
how does the dir go again, a right a left,and a right ?
hxxp://tinyurl.com/628prhl
slappy youll love these links
walking through GG PK Virtual Walking Tours
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/golden_gate_park.htm
San Francisco web site Index Virtual Walking Tours
hxxp://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/search.htm
i dont think its here,i just have fond memories of buena vista park sf
back in the day, if you couldnt catch a bed or floor,this was ok, its
in the haight hood
hxxp://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/M-oyI3PM ... VgGjzDDcyA
WhiteRabbit
It's strange, this one. Matching "Gh" seems to work well with either Great Highway (Goldengate shape) or Ghirardelli (reversal and Alcatraz). BP may have been thinking of both.
Seems to me this image has a clue for 68 or 86. Her left finger is indicating a point eight squares down on the cuff, her right finger a point six squares down, and the loops in the dragon's tail look like a vertical 68.
1668 -
Church
in Bush St
1868 -
Earthquake
1886 -
Balclutha
, moored by Ghirardelli
(Quite like that last one. Here's a pic of Ghirardelli from the ship.)
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/dave-monk/3520335658/
* * * * *
Coming back to the cinema...there's a mass of possible associations (RLS/Edwin/Equity/Trade Unions/Pro-Union rallies/Juneteenth/The Birds/Union Square drinking fountain) along the plaque->cinema route for this verse. Not sure where it would go after "law defended" though. The route from Union Square to Macaulay is along Geary St. Seems like the
Geary Act
could be considered a "bar" on Chinese, and gears can "bind". Maybe some point below Geary further along...?
slappybuns
Thank you CW! i love those! i am so horrible with the maps and too busy to get better
are you trying verse 6 with this image like WhiteRabbit?
i tried it, but the only thing i found was
hagiwara
was born
may, 1913
, which i couldn't find any plaque or anything til i was doing your asian museum tour and cervantes was on
hagiwar
a tea garden drive
and st. francis (fountain) feeding the birds (stand and listen to the birds).
if verse 7 i ike somewhere near cervantes because he is part of the rocks and mark twain loved him, even if he is spanish, he is on hagiwara drive.
hxxp://stuffilikenet.wordpress.com/cate ... ed/page/2/
CW i think the two solved ones were go straight (for miles) and then turn left. but i don't think they will all be like that (who knows
).
i think that because this park is such a part of the image, that maybe you are already there when you use the verse.
i had a good pic of the friend gate which had the park shape on it (of course i can't find it), but look at this on the entrance to the japanese tea garden (top and sides of picture), it almost has the two half circles from the image (at the bottom of image 1):
hxxp://indospectrum.com/photo/cd018_ent ... ea_garden1
and look, that middle symbol almost has "JJP"
WhiteRabbit
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Maybe some point below Geary further along...?
If you go right to the end and then drop down, you're back at my other favourite haunt...
Anza. Between two armza.
(This route starts at the RLS plaque, takes you down a bit, along
Geary
from end to end, and down a bit, as described
here
. He was San Fransisco's first Mayor. "Or May" always reminded me of "Mayor".)
slappybuns
that reminded me WhiteRabbit, another thing for verse 6........eyes of old............abe lincoln, always called "old abe"............lincoln way
and "bar that binds"=gate.........and the white house close-the conservatory.
but i still like verse 6 with charleston
WhiteRabbit
Also at this site:
On the 8th "A" seen
...opposite another sign...(the "dragon scales" one is roughly between them)...
Embedded in the sand
(Under the beach natch. There's a path running behind this one. Between that and the road is my best guess.)
slappybuns
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/63857459@N00/382446680/
closest thing i've seen to design on dress (the squares, blocks):
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Golde ... vilion.jpg
not sure where the bamboo forest is located in golden gate park, but bamboo is used for making
[b]"POLES"
[/b]
giant bamboo, giant pole
wk
Here is an inspirational article that I found while investigating the history of Golden Gate Park. I like the last sentence.
hxxp://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Statue_of_a_Heroic_Crusader_who_Spent_his_Life_Fighting_to_Keep_Statues_out_of_Golden_Gate_Park.
John McLaren statue, McLaren Rhododendron Dell, Golden Gate Park. John McLaren, Supervisor of Golden Gate Park from 1890 until his death in 1943, detested statues. He hated them with such a passion that he defied the City authorities and persisted in his lifelong crusade to keep Golden Gate Park statue-free. It is fitting, then, that for his efforts McLaren was immortalized in the form of--what else? --a statue, which may be found near the entrance to the Rhododendron Dell that bears his name. Interestingly, the McLaren statue is placed at the very back of a hedged-off grassy space, far from the gaze of visitors. Perhaps those responsible for the statue felt a tinge of guilt. By attempting to conceal the McLaren statue, they were following McLaren's own policy of "if you can't beat 'em, hide 'em." When McLaren lost his battles against those who wanted to erect a statue, he exacted revenge by re-arranging the park to make the statue as unobtrusive as possible. Usually he did so by planting trees, shrubs, and assorted verdant objects on all sides of the offending idol. To this day, most of the dozens of statues that grace (or deface) Golden Gate Park are so well-concealed by McLaren's greenery that few visitors even suspect their existence. If you boldly follow the less-trodden paths through the eastern half of the park, you will undoubtedly experience the thrill of blundering upon some of the hidden statues. Like the explorers who discovered the overgrown ruins of ancient Mayan temples, you will marvel at nature's (and, in this case, McLaren's) power to take back what civilization has wrought.
--Dr. Weirde
wk
slappybuns wrote::
[b]"POLES"
[/b]
giant bamboo, giant pole
I understood that the giant pole was "The Goddess of the Forest" 26 feet tall and 21 feet girth at base, carved by Dudley C Carter in 1939 but was moved in 1986 as it was rotting away. Where was it in the park?
Also, the park was wrecked by a storm in 1995.
erexere
I've been fumbling here for a bit. Something about Glenwood Springs, CO has me looking deeper.
Doc Holliday's gravestone.
Grey giant, the gondola tower on the right.
maltedfalcon
wk wrote::
I understood that the giant pole was "The Goddess of the Forest" 26 feet tall and 21 feet girth at base, carved by Dudley C Carter in 1939 but was moved in 1986 as it was rotting away. Where was it in the park?
Also, the park was wrecked by a storm in 1995.
The goddess of the forest is a very good possiblity for the giant Pole, Unfortunately I dug completely around it to a depth of 4 feet and found nothing.
it was west of Highway one. on John F Kennedy Blvd, Approximately where 30th intercepts JFK Blvd.
yet until the solutions are published/released or somebody finds an SF casque, it is merely a possiblity.
erexere
Reading about Glenwood Springs history I came across one of its infamous prisoners, Ted Bundy. The bars on the cave opening gave me the idea. Bundy managed to escape from his cell by sawing through a bar with a hacksaw blade and his escape wasn't noticed for 17 hours.
I thought the facial characteristics of the woman were similaar to those of Doc Holiliday
erexere
Please help analyze these images for anything that might be considered a possible link.
erexere
I must be imagining things, but something here just looks similar to me.
Dude's look totally different in drag...
fox
erexere wrote::
I've been fumbling here for a bit. Something about Glenwood Springs, CO has me looking deeper.
Now we are in CO? Not a geography genius but I'm pretty sure that the Centennial State has no port cities. I am pretty convinced that the list of locations we are working on right now are casque resting places. Let's not veer too far off course here guys.
erexere
fox wrote::
Now we are in CO? Not a geography genius but I'm pretty sure that the Centennial State has no port cities. I am pretty convinced that the list of locations we are working on right now are casque resting places. Let's not veer too far off course here guys.
Doh! I knew something felt wrong about CO. I had little to nothing to go on anyhow. Thanks for the course correction, Fox.
wk
maltedfalcon wrote::
The goddess of the forest is a very good possiblity for the giant Pole, Unfortunately I dug completely around it to a depth of 4 feet and found nothing.
it was west of Highway one. on John F Kennedy Blvd, Approximately where 30th intercepts JFK Blvd.
yet until the solutions are published/released or somebody finds an SF casque, it is merely a possiblity.
....but was it a "giant step" away where the shadow of the giant pole was on the month of June at 6 o'clock just like the original Masquade?
WhiteRabbit
I'm going through a statue phase at the moment. Considering I1 V6, it seems a heck of a coincidence that we have a plaque for RLS, a plaque for Edwin, and a great big chinese statue all right next to each other.
The uneven paving of St Mary's Square reminds me of the dragon scales.
And just check out that collar.
It's adorned with Chinese hieroglyphics like the image. And his hands are like the mountains.
I appreciate that the image has a strong resonance with GGP, but maybe this is an area pointer like the Water Tower.
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
RLS plaque.
Stand and listen to the birds
Hear the cool, clear song of water
Harken to the words:
Freedom at the birth of a century
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
Foundation of Equity at Edwin Booth's place in NY.
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
(Due south of Alcatraz, just as the pearl in the pic is below the bars?)
Beside the long palm's shadow
Near the statue
Embedded in the sand
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand.
Still a lot of unknowns here, but maybe worth a visit. It's two blocks from Clay St., named after Henry Clay who had a hand in the Emancipation Proclamation.
Statue is Sun Yat Sen. (Note reference to suns in the Chinese section of the intro. I know people hate this intro but it does give us FOY so it can't be all bad.)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen
Sculptor is Benny Bufano.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Bufano
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
The Open Era of tennis began in 1968, when most world-class tournaments first allowed professional players as well as amateurs to enter. Prior to the Open Era, only amateurs could enter the world's most prestigious tournaments, including the Grand Slams, leaving many of the top players of the day out of the competition. The distinction between professionals and amateurs had long been artificial and unfair, because many amateurs were receiving substantial compensation under the table. Once the governing bodies of tennis saw the light and allowed open competition, almost all of the top players became professionals. The quality of the major tournaments, the popularity of tennis, and the prize money for the players all surged strongly in response to the new Open Era rules.
Beside the long palm’s shadow
“Long palm” is the ancestor of tennis…might be a clue for the tennis courts at GGP (33 on the map).
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longue_paume
Image 1 has various hints for 68. The fingers point at the 8th and 6th squares…
…and 68 is also suggested in the dragon’s coils…
1968 was the beginning of “Open” tennis.
Tennis racquet…?
I previously suggested SF’s Lafayette Park, straight down Clay from the RLS statue at Portsmouth Square Plaza, and this could also indicate the tennis courts at Lafayette. These have sand and a white house conveniently situated.
(Found a nice mosaic dragon in "Dragon Park" in Nashville by looking at the coords 86, 36...but I don't suppose he'd be very popular.)
maltedfalcon
long palm - that reference makes total sense!
I bet wherever that verse points, Long Palm = tennis court..
WhiteRabbit
I'm glad you approve. A court does seem to go with the scene where law defended.
I think you once offered to go dig up Lafayette if I could find the bar that binds. Well, I can't...so you'll just have to go and look for it yourself...
forest_blight
Don't I wish it were near the dragon statue in Nashville! I drive by that thing almost every day going to and from work.
erexere
I feel strongly though I can't yet guess any one specific place of focus that image 1 pairs with verse 10 and is narrowed down by the 110 thousand people who were entered into Japanese internment camps after the attacks on Pearl Harbor. Perhaps the focal point is one particular camp site.
erexere
hxxp://www.du.edu/behindbarbedwire/amac ... bered.html
Something uncanny about the shape of that memorial stone. It checks out per-80s timeline. The Camp Amache has a strict grid pattern, similar to a fence or tennis racket or even a grenade, since it is in the area of Granada, CO.
Hmm, dragon, draconian, harsh or hard..."him of hard word...". It was Roosevelt who put forth the intermnent order. Rose on pedestal = Roosevelt President?
Post hmm, "G" "h" printed backward could be a clue about a language that may be printed right to left the reverse of English. There are several options, Japanese is among them (also vertical top down).
The spiritual approach is invited on this image. Dualism. The heart of the mountain, a prison in need of opening through transcendence, mind over matter. Maybe it's Bhuddist, but it Is without a symbol for the Noble Eight Fold Path.
erexere
erexere wrote::
maltedfalcon, the Enterprise was the name of that first balloon ride. You've focused on pic 1 with verse 5 for SF right? I've become convinced verse 5 goes with pic 6, so I'm not able to help further your SF approach that way. Could verse 10 work? Does the pic have a CA shape hidden anywhere?
I totally see the SF in pic 1, it's practically a rebus. I think it's potentially misleading, but putting us on a stepping stone in the right direction. In the Japanese Internment theory it works because people of Japanese origin were gathered from SF and taken to Manzanar in next to Sierra Nevada, but the "No-No Boys", people who failed to answer two specific questions pertaining to renunciation of all loyalty to Japan and whether they would be willing to serve in American military, were sent specifically to Tule Lake. Tule Lake was seen as the "Alcatraz" of Japanese Internment. I think I actually read that somewhere (sorry, no citation). Hence the prison gate in the mountain. Tule Lake is in an area next to the National Lava Beds, so there are lots of volcanic formations including large cinder cone (large grey giant?). Typical volcanic rock colors are reddish orange and grey. I think verse 10 works with this in a very significant way, because I found a memorial stone that looks similar to pic 1 (neck line below collar) and is located in the area of aisle B on a grid plot that has rows/columns ranging E through K. Extrapolation is required to see the location as aisle B.
Carried over from verse 5 discussion, really a verse 10 topic.
maltedfalcon
a minor problem with your theory is the lat/lon of san francisco is prominent in the image.
however that lat/lon of tule lake is not.
erexere
Heck, that's no minor problem...I think my theory is trashed...but something might be salvaged. The area in SF called little Tokyo maybe? I think something close to GGB or where the Relocation process took place might be a direction to look into.
I'm went off track looking at various camp sites. I'd still like to see verse 10 go with this.
maltedfalcon
Little Tokyo is downtown and there really arent any parks there.
any way however this turns out I'm almost sure its still image 1 verse 7, and the golden gate headlands.
I will let you know after I go dig..
maltedfalcon
actully when you think about the map of the golden gate on her forhead pratically screams Golden Gate Headlands....
erexere
Just to the left of the woman's right eye there is a body shape in the rock. Any ideas?
maltedfalcon
you'll have to be more specific, in those rocks I have seen everything from JFK and Abraham Lincoln to
Judy (of Punch and Judy) to 2 american Indian women facing to the right.
I have not seen a map of California nor a map of the San Francisco Peninsula.
However I actually do have an idea for that particular spot of the painting, and along with the Barred Window, I believe it is a site confirmer.
and actually I had always thought that the location I was looking in could not be correct, because I thought BP would "have" to use this particular object as a site confirmer.
but I couldnt find it until last week, when I realized he pictured it from behind...
So now I have two almost certain site confirmers.
As soon as I get out there and dig, I will let you know what I was thinking.
But I do want to expand on "Site Confirmers" in the paintings.
I noticed that most of the site confirmers in the Cleveland painting cannot be seen from the actual location of the casque. (Eggbert, if you are still around, can you confirm this?)
But you could step away from the casque location and you would then be able to view the casque location and see several of the site confirmers.
Not so much in Chicago, but if I am right, definitely in San Francisco.
Hope to get out there and dig the first week of december, give or take
erexere
Good luck! I'm very interested in which verse you've decided fits best with those confirmers. Hopefully not verses 5 or 7.
Yeah, i'm going to have to give you an outline of the image that im focused on. You can see anything your minds eye wants to...right now it looks like a farmer / rancher dude. I'm thinking this is a San Bruno.
maltedfalcon
Image1-verse7
ChunkTug
The cartoon Lincoln/swollen JFK face just above the rose? I got the same initial impression as MF when I saw it (minus the Judy and the squaws). If it is a Lincoln profile, then it's not the real Lincoln's profile.
I'll have to post up my photos from my trip to SF last May. I was looking at I1-V7 then. I was visiting friends for Bay To Breakers and six of us spent Saturday wandering from park to park looking from the picture for site confirmers. I was most hopeful that there would be something at Russian Hill Park.
Coming down the stairs there along Larkin St. you can see...
The backwards 'Gh' of the Ghiradelli sign (Maybe also 'The air smells sweet')
Gallileo high school (Education)
Alcatraz (Justice)
The three masts of the Balaclutha at the Hyde St. pier (High post are three)
It felt very much like "Hey! I can see a lot of confirmers all from one park!" Unfortunately, not a pole in sight and nothing from the image clicking other than 'Gh'.
erexere
I'm really starting to believe this is verse 2.
The Gh really fits the Ghiradeli square at the north side. Follow the roads south looking for landmarks along the way Brings you in the direction of Tanforan in San Bruno. In 1951 the South San Fran High School was established at the 400B site where there is a football field with three tall light posts. Their team is the Warriors and use an Indian Chief head with feathers as their emblem.
I think the mountains in the background represent having to pass to the other side of San Bruno mountain region to get to the location.
maltedfalcon
Could be, until we find a casque all theories are equal.
erexere
The aerial image looks about 15 rows on the home stand. Right now I'm wondering if "rose" on a "stand" from where you "watch" the football game is how we should read this image.
erexere
There's a lot of ideas about what might be the 'object of Twain's attention'...
Hrrmph...I don't know what it could be.
maltedfalcon
im pretty sure that where ever the verse leads you the object of twains attention would be obvious
or at least it would have been in 1982
If it isnt/wasnt your probably in the wrong place.
shecrab
It's not obvious at all. Twain wrote about everything from middle Eastern religion to fairy tales--and at well over 300 written and published works, it's pretty difficult to tell what captured his attention at any particular time. He lived in New York City, San Francisco, Missouri, and a host of other places--he traveled all over the world. His first published best-selling book was "Innocents Abroad," which details a trip taken on a paddle-wheel ship to Europe and the Holy Land, and which he serialized in the newspaper for nearly a year then compounded into a single book. It sold like hotcakes. It was the sequel to his book "Roughing It" which details his trip to the western regions of North America. He was interested in the theatre, in law, language, religion--this was truly--TRULY--a Renaissance man! In my humble opinion, this is one of the
most enigmatic
of any line in any of the verses Preiss wrote. And I am convinced he knew it!
erexere
It could also be "twain" (noun) for divided into two parts...a land feature with a split perspective?...it sure bothers me to associate verse 7 with anything other than New Orleans, but it is a valuable exercise to work with other combinations, just to be suprised by the results.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
It's not obvious at all. Twain wrote about everything from middle Eastern religion to fairy tales--and at well over 300 written and published works, it's pretty difficult to tell what captured his attention at any particular time. this is one of the
most enigmatic
of any line in any of the verses Preiss wrote. And I am convinced he knew it!
You are preaching to the choir, BP is responsible for me reading every single published (and some not published) Mark Twain Works, Every book, newspaper article, magazine article, Letter, and speech. For this alone I am extremely grateful to BP. (still haven't finished his new autobiography though...)
But yes I believe it is/will be extremely obvious, If (big if here) you are standing in the correct spot.
If you are in the correct spot then visible to you will be something obviously associated with Mark Twain.
I dont think it will be vague, you are so correct, in that Mark Twain's attention was captured by so many things. When I was digging at The Giant Totem pole in Golden Gate Park, the thing that bugged me the most was, "I believed that the object of Twain's attention should be obvious" and there was just nothing there.
So I drew a map centered on "The Goddess of the Forests"' base with compass lines pointing at things Mark Twain mentioned.
Out of 360 degrees, only about 25 degrees of space (southeast) did not point at something Mark Twain wrote about. I ended up digging entirely around the base. (thats a lot of dirt). In 20/20 hindsite I realize The Goddess of the forest was the wrong place to dig on so many levels.
Its only vague because we have not yet stood in the correct spot.
(actually I have about 20 times and now that I think about it I kick myself.)
shecrab
MF, I'm in the process of reading through most of Twain's works as well. (Got them for free on my Kindle!)
At any rate....I think it's gonna be something simple. Something that we'll all do face-palms after. However, that said, I don't believe verse 7 goes with San Francisco--I believe it goes with Image 12--New York. The whole verse fits, even the Twain. I got the whole thing to work out to Battery Park at the tip of Manhattan. The giant pole is there--it's the giant STEP I can't determine, though I have a couple of possiblities.
maltedfalcon
Well, My Giant Pole is gone, but my giant step is there as is an object of twains attention
I thought the pole was removed in the early 90s
but I have now found a picture of the area without the pole, that could have been taken anytime after the 60s (based on the cars in the picture)
I am trying to get a firm date for the removal.
If the pole was removed prior to 1981 then you are most probably correct.
erexere
MaltedF, will you check out Grand View Park and see if something lines up to look like the Pole and Step? I think you're still distracted by GG Park.
I found a few good photos that shoe then GG bridge in the distance while standing at Grand View Park. The barred gate's size in the image matches the perspective size of GG. I'd say that's a good clue. This hasn't been altered in terms of resizing, it's 1:1 book scan to photo and so it's the only way to distinguish whether a perspective method like this is in play,
Nearby the Moraga Steps look very interesting (disregard the tiled mural, it's recent).
About Coit Tower, I couldnt make it work., theres a long steps there but again im not convinced of its viability.
maltedfalcon
Nope I left GGpark years ago when I figured out that GGpark was the Iconic image and the start of the Picture Path for Image 1
The next thing I had to figure out was where was the end of the journey and where did the verse start.
I knew several things. Since there are so many roads leading away from GGpark, The picture would have to tell me which one to take, and of course it would have to tell me where to stop or turn.
lastly once I got there the picture would need to have at least two site confirmers hidden in the pictures.
So I looked and looked until I found a spot that fulfilled all those qualifications.
Of course I still could be totally wrong, any of my suppositions above could be incorrect, but I tried to learn everything I could from the two found Caches and concentrated on only what I knew worked in those finds.
So now I have my end point and there I found two site confirmers, the first being the Barred Window which is a doorway with exactly the same shape/height/width shown in the image and bars.
And standing in the doorway I can see another site confirmer found in the image (but it is well hidden)
the question is which verse? im trying to find out if the giant Pole was even there in 1981. it might not have been.
but other verses just dont fit.
erexere
The "pedastal" with watch and rose matches the antique street lamp post on Sutter street. Look closely at the shape of the "torch arms".
Malted, I mean no disrespect as I feel obligated to look for alternatives. You say the GGP is an iconic image and the start of the path. I think thats a problem. The start seems more likely the view of Alcatraz from the pier near Ghirahdeli Chocolatier. From there, the reverse view of Gh informs us to go south on Larkin. At the corner of Larkin and Sutter i believe there is/was a confirmer to turn right. You pass by "Little Japan" and continue to the middle of the North side of GGP and then "crossover" to 19th street using Crossover St. Continue till you come to the corner of an Orthodox church and Lawton street (Education and Justice) but dont turn, continue to 19th and Moraga where you will find your next confirmer on the Northeast corner (ask me if you dont see it, but I'm sure you will pee yourself when you do), turn left head straight to the top of Grand View Park.
maltedfalcon
Absolutely no disrespect taken or felt in any way!
Your views are equal to mine, Everything I say is a theory, guesswork and wishful thinking.
Personally I have never ever bought into Gh = Ghirarhdeli other than the font is similar. If you can point me to a lamp post in SF that matches the silhouette I would appreciate it.
I have found many that are similar but none that match. where is exactly is the lamp on sutter st you are talking about.
I looked for the confirmer on the corner of 19th and Moraga, but I must be blind I don't see it. The lamppost isnt the same shape as the silhouette, the windows on the building don't match the image.
I give up?
One thing I think, is you are using the verse to move through the city. (that's the job of the image) by the time you get to the immediate location of the casque, you wont have enough verse left to specifically guide you to the exact spot to dig. remember in the two found casques the picture verse leads you through a continuous journey with no "jump aheads " you're basically guided the entire way. (once you figure out where to start)
lastly the verse states aces high, running north, but first across, yet you take highway 1 ( crossover st. ) and head south. why did you head south?
erexere
Honestly I was only theorizing abojut the lamp post at Larkin and Sutter, but since just now checking on google street view i confirmed it is there. The shape of the rose stem is also built into it. Its not that unique, there are more on Sutter. I dont know SF so well, so they could be else place.
The Moraga and 19th has a blue building with tall narrow sash style window work that matches the sleeves in the picture.
Why south? I dont have a good answer...why not? As for left over verse, im not sure we need much in this case...just get your butt up to Grand View Park sometime and figure it out.
maltedfalcon
actually went there in about 2005 or 6 when I was trying to find an alternative to the Goddess of the Forest.
erexere
Looking closely these aren't exact matches, but they all look suspiciously close. Note the curling stem of the rose fits the design of the attaching arm to the light post.
fox
Not too excited about the lamp post matching the pedestal...sure, it is kind of similar but.... Now, as for the strange windows on the blue building.....that is nice
, there are, however, 2 rows of blocks on her sleeve but 3 rows of blocks on the window.
falcon, where exactly is this exact match for the window? Would love to see it. What was the other site confirmer you can see? Are we finally getting close to unearthing another casque.........I sure hope so. How about a little inspirational digging music?
erexere
Similarities are the key here..."exact matches" aren't really getting us anywhere.
I've appreciated the warnings to not go too far into anything like my interest in the Japanese Intermnent idea that led me to consider all the locations where people were interred, but that is just one point of view. Looking instead at where it began might be less ambiguous...the order was signed at The Presidio. I think the artistic rendering of a prison bar gate and Asian ethnic yfocus strictly points to this historical event. Preiss might only be using JJP to work in the motif to point to the Path that Sutter or Geary takes through those ethnic districts...or a specific connection to a street like the Park Presidio Boulevard which connects to Crossover St. (arms crossed). Connecting to Moraga continues to make more sense. If I'm right about the detail of the rose stem looking distinctive like the street lamps along Sutter then the tall-narrow sash windows set in blue at a slightly elevated level fits a pattern in perspective as indicated by looking up a little like we do with seeing the barred door over the woman's head.
The watch at the center of the pedestal concerns me. What is at 6 o'clock? Or does it represent the jewel and a spot from which to "watch" or see all the confirmers. Is it a spot exactly in the middle of a round area? If so, it also works to consider Grand View Park which is basically a round mound hill top.
maltedfalcon
unless you find somewhere with exact matches.
fox
Have to agree with falcon here....especially if he will once and for all tell us where his exact matches are
Both finds in Chicago and Cleveland had EXACT matches abound....why not other ones?
shecrab
I also agree. I doubt seriously that BP would have made a puzzle with only "similiarities" in the paintings when the solutions were so exact. That was the POINT of the paintings, actually--to show the VISUALLY EXACT matches that pinpoint the location of the casques--otherwise, you will be looking for a single square yard of soil in an area that is hundreds or thousands of square yards large.
erexere
I don't think these are exact. Very similar is what we are looking for. The Doric style of the columns is retained, but the smooth finish in the image isn't evident in the grooved actual columns. The dimensions of width and proportion are off as well in the wall.
As for the narrow sleeves with 2 columns verses 3, I'm looking at the same sort of similarity, tall narrow grid patterned elements. This arched window with the narrow 2-columned sash windows fits the bill slightly as well. It's the San Francisco Public Library on 19th and Irving.
The top of the watch and the exact basic pattern of the post below the table top fits this antique lamp post at Sutter/Powell.
This puts me on a path near Union Square which makes me have to consider something related to Alma de Bretteville Spreckels, since her likeness is established as the figure high up on the Dewey Monument which also commemorates William Mckinley...it honors THREE in one (High posts are three). The wiki article on Spreckles really fuels my suspicions when it refers to Sam Hill AND Auguste Rodin since I've worked on two other solution prospects that are central to them (image 6 = Sam Hill, and image 3 = Rodin (RodanTHE)).
Does anything in this image suggest "tea time" or sugar cubes?
EDIT; okay, that didnt take long to come across a reference in tea etiquette about the thumb position at 6 o'clock and pinky at 12 o'clock...is that what the clock piece signifies? This puzzle seems to be imbued with sugary tea goodness.
Going into new directions, away from the Grant View or Buena Vista park ideas, I'm looking at the Italian elements that might lead to Dolores Park.
maltedfalcon
@Erexere
Understand I am not trying to Shoot down your ideas at all, I agree with several totally.
I am trying to be vague on purpose
What I am trying to do is, without hinting "hot" or "cold" see if someone else independently comes up with my results, based on the Picture Path Theory of the Image.
If nobody does, then most likely my idea is flawed.
however if someone applies the same rules I do and comes up with the same result. The idea gains credence.
I will say, jumping to the verse and ignoring the image, Or assuming that the image is just a general location, has never worked.
You need both. The image must show you where to start the verse, or you're most likely in the wrong place. At the very least, when you choose where to start the verse,you need to be able to backwards engineer the picture to get you to that exact spot.
erexere
I'm down with trying o replicate your findings, but I'm struggling with your theory and I understand that tailoring my approach doesn't help your effort.
Tell me, does the Tea etiquette idea fit for you? Perhaps a T-intersection?
maltedfalcon
no idea, however there is a T intersection at both ends of the Picture Path as I see it. BTW Teatime is 4pm not 6pm
Also notice the face is looking forward. Meaning go straight.
Since GGpark has no real address it is surrounded by streets, the question is, Which street is your path to go straight on?
maltedfalcon
BTW are you local to SF?
we could meet up when I finally schedule a dig.
any body else would be welcome too...
erexere
Thanks, I've never been to SF. I'm in Eugene, Oregon. I would gladly support your dig attempt in spirit though.
Im getting more confused each time I question what is really designed to be the iconic image. The celestial bodies or circles could be domes all over the town, like the observatory, city hall or many of the churches. Sounds from the sky, maybe Carillon Bell towers? Maybe the iconic image is simply the Door? Or heck, maybe it is just as you say, GGP.
ChunkTug
Erexere, I think you're 100% spot on with your lampost match including the top of the clock and the rose stem spiral.
erexere
The rose stem spiral is almost generic, found in lots of spots around the city on sign fixtures, fences and facades. For all we know it is simply a wordplay device "Spiral" = spy + rail = "look for a rail or rail car". I'm going to guess that BP took those trolleys despite their being in peak crappy condition at the time.
The Powell street post is certainly a find. I had used a Sutter street edition in the earlier pic, which wasn't as good a fit. The top Or stem-wind of the pocket watch is VERY convincing when paired with the portion of table below. This location throws me...I don't really know where to go next?
I see slappybuns already gave consideration to the Dragon Gate at Bush/Grant near Union Square and mentioned the Dewey Monument. I sure like its being a three part dedication as a high post idea. I also like the triple lit lamp posts along Market Street.
erexere
Unknown:
The role of this proof in history is the subject of much speculation. The underlying question is why Euclid did not use this proof, but invented another. One conjecture is that the proof by similar triangles involved a theory of proportions, a topic not discussed until later in the Elements, and that the theory of proportions needed further development at that time.
I noticed the proportions are very similar between the doors to the Exploratorium and the Sleeve squares, also the color is similar. The Exploratorium door is in a stone wall and is located next to Bay St. Included is the small lake shape that looks like it contains an inlet which implies a bay. Perhaps this is similar to how the triangle in the sphere/circle might be a clue to go down Euclid St. in the Cleveland image.
more on the Euclid triangle (does it look equilateral?)
Euclid used a construction with compass method and two intersecting circles to proof that all angles were equal for an equilateral triangle:
maltedfalcon
no it doesn't, the base is obviously longer than the side, look at it sideways. Its not even a right triangle.
again, I seriously dont equate it with Euclid
But I like how you are working with the image to find a street, I have often wondered if that lake = the bay.
The exploratoriam door frames are cement not stone, but I think you could consider cement stone for the purposes of this hunt. The sleve squares are similar but they arent really that close. are they?
erexere
So, zero chance of recovering it from Union Square? It underwent a renovation in 1998 that included lots of paving.
maltedfalcon
yes there is no soil left on union square that wasnt removed and replaced during the renovation. the square was completely stripped down to the concrete parking lot under it.
yet not a cause for alarm, because i'm pretty sure thats not anywhere near where it was buried.
erexere
well, I'm only jumping to conclusions. I thought about using the dragon on the dress to signify the Drake hotel after following my version of the picture maze, which is a detail to turn in the direction of Union Square. Having little verse left, (still lost on Education and Justice...) I am back to thinking the Dewey monument is our Giant Pole.
erexere
erexere wrote::
Better pic of lamp at Montgomery and Sutter. (the first one I come to based on a path I'm working on)
The top of the watch is the most recognizable portion with it's pointy bell shape matching the top of the light.
fox
Now that most recent angle on the lamp posts....I can buy into. That is a pretty darn good match for the watch pedestal in the pic. Falcon, are these posts scattered all around SF or just in this one area?
erexere
I can't answer that for sure, but I've seen at least 3 old style posts that have those features. Most on Sutter, some on Powell and Market, and then some at the Palace of the Legion of Honor.
This next image is similar to the Exploratorium doors but maybe more similar to the sleeves. The back side of the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium.
erexere
Big news, or half-big, depending on how you look at it...just in the way the top of the Cleveland Terminal Tower is outlined upside down in the shape of the space between the branches of image 4, I'm very confident the half or right-sided upside down shape of the Transamerica Pyramid building is outlined on the left side of image 1 just above the eye level of the woman where the water meets the rock. I'll work on putting in the visual later when I'm on my home computer, it's very convincing. Too bad it has to be only one side, so it won't shrug off scrutiny, but this being said, I think this HAS to be the start path or iconic image.
Where I was worried about Union Square being our candidate for a treasure ground, now I'm less worried. I expect one or two long streets will lead us to a park setting where we will find our giant pole...or at least where it once stood.
maltedfalcon
Actually I know right where you are talking about. looked at it many times.
yet compare that to any other bldg image in the picture water tower, terminal tower City hall, castle...
They are all quite detailed.
this is just a line that generally (not exactly) follows the contour of one part of a building.
Personnally (and this is just my opinion,) I think it's not.
To answer your questions old lamp posts of that style are everywhere in San Francisco, even worse, old plain lamposts are commonly replaced with reproduction old style posts.
SF enjoys retro styling, for example they have brought back and restored many old style street cars from the 30s and and 40s and 50s. Things that would not have been there in the 80s
are in place and styled as or restored so that they look like they have been there all along.
It is actually pretty easy to find a lamp post that generally matches the outline, yet if you look the shape of the glass lamp is usually rounded, however the shape of the silhouette under the table has flatter sides or is squared.
Several locations have the triple top lampposts that could be High posts are three, however no matter where you go in SF
Sutro
tower is above and near everything. I'm pretty sure that's high points are three, unless you actually found the casque
under a triple topped lamp post.
maltedfalcon
Actually I know right where you are talking about. looked at it many times.
yet compare that to any other bldg image in the picture water tower, terminal tower City hall, castle...
They are all quite detailed.
this is just a line that generally (not exactly) follows the contour of one part of a building.
Personnally (and this is just my opinion,) I think it's not.
To answer your questions old lamp posts of that style are everywhere in San Francisco, even worse, old plain lamposts are commonly replaced with reproduction old style posts.
SF enjoys retro styling, for example they have brought back and restored many old style street cars from the 30s and and 40s and 50s. Things that would not have been there in the 80s
are in place and styled as or restored so that they look like they have been there all along.
It is actually pretty easy to find a lamp post that generally matches the outline, yet if you look the shape of the glass lamp is usually rounded, however the shape of the silhouette under the table has flatter sides or is squared.
Several locations have the triple top lampposts that could be High posts are three, however no matter where you go in SF Sutro tower is above and near everything. I'm pretty sure that's high points are three, unless you actually found the casque
under a triple topped lamp post.
erexere
Glad you brought up the retro lamp activity..yet another hole in the leaky boat of theories.
Im generally skeptical on the partial match but as a perfect half image, I am going to give it some weight until i cant reason where we are to be led. If its just wrong, i'll have a suitably strained solution as usual. ::)
Sutro
Tower eh? I like that very much, because it serves well as an Aligner (more of my custom reasure hunt jargon) with what is ultimately the Giant pole/step.
The last few days of exploration have really inspired me to rethink the other images, including my Sam Hill Memorial in Corbett, Oregon idea.
Edit; it's clear to me now that the verse doesnt waste itself with details about where to start the path. At stonewalls door must be in view of the casque.
erexere
Glad you brought up the retro lamp activity..yet another hole in the leaky boat of theories.
Im generally skeptical on the partial match but as a perfect half image, I am going to give it some weight until i cant reason where we are to be led. If its just wrong, i'll have a suitably strained solution as usual. ::)
Sutro Tower eh? I like that very much, because it serves well as an Aligner (more of my custom reasure hunt jargon) with what is ultimately the Giant pole/step.
The last few days of exploration have really inspired me to rethink the other images, including my Sam Hill Memorial in Corbett, Oregon idea.
Edit; it's clear to me now that the verse doesnt waste itself with details about where to start the path. At stonewalls door must be in view of the casque.
maltedfalcon
I dont think you can actually see it from the casque site because of the Giant step. But thats still just a theory.
erexere
I'm focused on Alice Marble Tennis Court area now. Not 100% but the stone wall is like a door for the steps.
I wonder if the watch is a reference to Greenwich street.
maltedfalcon
or perhaps its just a clock, there are several others in the images. Would they all point to Greenwich st?
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
or perhaps its just a clock, there are several others in the images. Would they all point to Greenwich st?
Unknown:
He is depicted twice in Jack London's novels: as Russ Brissenden in the autobiographical Martin Eden (1909) and as Mark Hall in The Valley of the Moon (1913).
Indeed, I just finished a very loose interpretation starting with Transamerica building as the iconic image off on the left side with the half/partial image outline, taking the diagonal street Columbus on a whim (i.e. I don't know why or why not yet), then turning left on Bay St. (again, not sure why, maybe the little blue patch between partial building outline and woman's head), then just before the intersection of Larkin and Bay where just the "Gh" (reverse that) comes into view there is a stair leading southward up to the Russian Open Space resevoir (Giant Step?), continue on a block to the stone retaining wall breaks for a diagonal stairway leading into the center of the George Sterling Memorial/Alice Marble tennis park area. It was just a side note rather than an impulse that lead to the idea that Greenwich could actually be for what the watch in this image means.
Again, a very loose interpretation, but from that area a lot of things surrounding previous discussions fit into place. Two blocks away from Ghirradeli the air probably still smells sweet. The barred door/window in the mountain might still represent the Golden Gate Bridge, the GG Park is near, perhaps in view, the
Sutro
Tower must be visible, but I don't know for sure.
An alternate iconic image might be the watch-wind and table base which looks like just about any light post in the historic downtown of SF where you can catch a rail car that goes up Columbia and turns down Bay...I don't know, is(was) there a MUNI line that did that?
I really really like this site, as the aerial photos from 1980 indicate nothing much has changed to the grounds around the courts. The interpretation of "Education and Justice" might lend itself to the tennis "court" equating to Justice. Now there just needs to be a school nearby.
Edit; about George Sterling, the wiki has some trivia that caught my eye:
Could this be why there are so many moons in the sky of the image?
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
or perhaps its just a clock, there are several others in the images. Would they all point to Greenwich st?
Unknown:
He is depicted twice in Jack London's novels: as Russ Brissenden in the autobiographical Martin Eden (1909) and as Mark Hall in The Valley of the Moon (1913).
Indeed, I just finished a very loose interpretation starting with Transamerica building as the iconic image off on the left side with the half/partial image outline, taking the diagonal street Columbus on a whim (i.e. I don't know why or why not yet), then turning left on Bay St. (again, not sure why, maybe the little blue patch between partial building outline and woman's head), then just before the intersection of Larkin and Bay where just the "Gh" (reverse that) comes into view there is a stair leading southward up to the Russian Open Space resevoir (Giant Step?), continue on a block to the stone retaining wall breaks for a diagonal stairway leading into the center of the George Sterling Memorial/Alice Marble tennis park area. It was just a side note rather than an impulse that lead to the idea that Greenwich could actually be for what the watch in this image means.
Again, a very loose interpretation, but from that area a lot of things surrounding previous discussions fit into place. Two blocks away from Ghirradeli the air probably still smells sweet. The barred door/window in the mountain might still represent the Golden Gate Bridge, the GG Park is near, perhaps in view, the Sutro Tower must be visible, but I don't know for sure.
An alternate iconic image might be the watch-wind and table base which looks like just about any light post in the historic downtown of SF where you can catch a rail car that goes up Columbia and turns down Bay...I don't know, is(was) there a MUNI line that did that?
I really really like this site, as the aerial photos from 1980 indicate nothing much has changed to the grounds around the courts. The interpretation of "Education and Justice" might lend itself to the tennis "court" equating to Justice. Now there just needs to be a school nearby.
Edit; about George Sterling, the wiki has some trivia that caught my eye:
Could this be why there are so many moons in the sky of the image?
ChunkTug
The George Sterling Memorial/Alice Marble tennis courts is one of the parks I visited last May. It was actually my friend Patrick's first choice of spots to check out. You can't tell from the (google map) aerial photos, but the little plaza to the west side of the courts has some tiling. It was the first place that clicked in Patrick's mind when he saw the dragon's tiling. At the site we noticed two things.
1. The bricks looked nothing like the dragon's tile. My memory's hazy, but I think it was a very regular/diagonal pattern.
2. There was a plaque indicating the park had been renovated within the past decade.
erexere
ChunkTug wrote::
The George Sterling Memorial/Alice Marble tennis courts is one of the parks I visited last May. It was actually my friend Patrick's first choice of spots to check out. You can't tell from the (google map) aerial photos, but the little plaza to the west side of the courts has some tiling. It was the first place that clicked in Patrick's mind when he saw the dragon's tiling. At the site we noticed two things.
1. The bricks looked nothing like the dragon's tile. My memory's hazy, but I think it was a very regular/diagonal pattern.
2. There was a plaque indicating the park had been renovated within the past decade.
That's not too unsettling, the renovations may have only been minor, such as resurfacing the tennis courts and landscaping the parking area if not also laying down those tiles. I doubt they dug a foot deep to install tiles. We might get lucky and discover the casque is beneath one of those tiles! It would've been a big 'hello' if the tiles did match the image in any way.
I'm still very unsure about how to proceed with the final locate. Is it an alignment of "giant pole" and something in the image that provides a criss-cross?
maltedfalcon
none of the previous finds used the image for anything like that before.
finding the casque was strictly based on the lines of the verse.
erexere
Unknown:
Spring 1999
Itinerant Houses: A History of San Francisco¹s House Moving Industry (William Kostura)
Only Chicago has had a larger house moving industry. Houses in mid-move used to be a fairly common sight in San Francisco, as this essay shows, and drew the attention of Mark Twain and many others. The author investigates surviving moved buildings, some of which would have been destroyed in 1906 had they been left in place
I want to know more about this:
What house in particular caught Twain's attention?
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
none of the previous finds used the image for anything like that before.
finding the casque was strictly based on the lines of the verse.
True, but those were so much more explicit. There is room for alternate methods. Also, what if those were the easy ones...the next casques will be tougher for a reason.
maltedfalcon
It's all about statistics and odds.
It is a possiblity that those 2 were the easy ones, that each casque is its own uniquely concieved hunt. That you cannot take lessons from the two that have been found and apply it to other image/verses.
With a statistical sample of 2 (the only ones we have for sure) You are 100 % correct. there is really no way to gather meaningful data.
However do we only have a sample of 2?
While we have 2 found casques to look at, I would bet even those verse image parings werent solved 100%. Obviously they were solved enough to find the casques, but I believe there was still some clues left in the images. which lead me to the Picture Path Theory. So lets widen our sample to casques that have not been found but casques we have a high probabability for. (Houston, Minneaopolis, Roanoke, St Augustine) In some the verse is very sure, In some the image.
Now we suddenly have a very large statistical sample.
Suddenly it becomes obvious that there are huge similarities in all the pictures, Lat/lon, maps,site confirmers, iconic images.
Again it becomes obvious that the verses have similarities too, they start at a specific spot and describe a ever-narrowing path that takes you to the square foot that the casque is buried under.
maltedfalcon
So going with that- I would say there could be minor differences. i.e. Rebus in Milwaukee, Seloy in the verse, etc.
but that could easily fall well within the idea of site confirmers.
Now the idea of having to re-invent the hunt for each different casque strikes me as in-elegant. So I think it would actually be more productive to find the similarities and exploit them to solve the puzzles.
maltedfalcon
Ok, I should be able to fit in a dig in the next week or so.
So I will tell you what I am thinking, Nothing new- earthshaking or ground breaking.
Image 1 - The iconic image is of course Golden Gate Park. I don't need to cover the lat/lon -
and It goes without saying the dress is backwards. So I take a mirror image of the dress and the G h falls on The Great Highway.
and suddenly her fingers are no longer pointing at 4 and 3, they are pointing at 34.
Her face is straight ahead, (indicating in my picture path theory go straight!) Go straight on what? GGpark does not have an "address" Well duh! Go straight on 34th..
34th leaves GGpark and runs due north. How will I know where to stop??!
look just to the left of the lady (or to the right now that I have flipped the image) who's face is looking straight up, (yes I know it's a caricature) Why its Abraham Lincoln. So I drive up 34th looking for Lincoln.
Oops the road ends! no it doesnt it just goes into this park... Ahhh Lincoln Park...
So I pull into the first parking lot. and basically I have completed the picture path, and oh wait...
maltedfalcon
There ought to be some site confirmers around here. Oh There's one. Hey look there's another!
Can you find them?
I am looking at the barred window in the rocks, and that strange shape (above lincoln) just beside the lady's head
erexere
I think you are 100% right about iconic image but only mostly right about Picture Path. Palencar had polaroids, but not locations. Cleveland was his idea so perhaps that is the main reason why I4 is different. You have to admit the verses is somewhat non-linear. Although verse is mostly dedicated to the treasure ground, I think some is used to put you on the path after finding the iconic image.
Malted, that is terrific! I see five confirmers!
maltedfalcon
The verse is non-linear but only deals with the treasure ground.
it has nothing to do with getting to the treasure ground.
only the image has the info that gets you to the treasure ground.
maltedfalcon
also bear in mind that several times since 1980s the area has gone under major remodeling.
however I'm pretty sure the casque location is untouched. but major clues have been moved/changed/removed.
erexere
Here's a good image from pre80's:
hxxp://gregpetersonphoto.com/Architectu ... large.html
I don't recognize all the cars, but there isn't an 80's among them as far as I can tell.
What's this statue in the background?
hxxp://www.flickr.com/photos/gitte_syndrome/5638592457/
maltedfalcon
I have that picture.
that is the one that is giving me grief.
however it might be from 1985 If it predates 1982 that means its probably not verse 7
unfortunatly nobody remembers when the flagpole was removed.
maltedfalcon
I don't think the foto of Dad at the legion of honor is at the legion of honor. Its down the road.
forest_blight
I think that photo is of the Columbus statue beside Coit Tower.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
I have that picture.
that is the one that is giving me grief.
however it might be from 1985 If it predates 1982 that means its probably not verse 7
unfortunatly nobody remembers when the flagpole was removed.
The Greg Peterson photo doesn't have a specific date but he does state on his website that he lost most of his photography studio to a fire in the late 70's. I wondered if this was one of the survivors. It's a very nice photo. The cars are mostly 60's and 70's. I see what might be a Pinto wagon, a Datsun, and a 1980 Pontiac Pheonix. Looks like a white Dodge. The bright yellow car has me a little stumped...I'm thinking trans am, but pre 82.
maltedfalcon
which doenst change the fact this is the treasure ground.
it just might not be verse 7
ChunkTug
I've been looking at the image along the right side of teh pic where the water meets the cliffs. To me the contour line of the cliff looks very suspicious and when mirrored if looks like a building. I can't match it to anything. Thoughts?
erexere
I am accustom to staring at something until it looks like a horses rear end. I can see it, but barely. Subtle.
This looks like a flag pole to me in 1987, a blurry year in general.
maltedfalcon
the latest definite picture of the flagpole shows it stuck right into the ground. no base or step.
The earliest picture of no flagpole shows the pole removed and it has been replaced by 3 or four parking spots.
So what you could be seeing there is two cars parked in that spot.
If it was the pole it would be almost invisible. That we are seeing something tells me there is something bigger than a pole there.
erexere
Maybe those aren't moons or bubbles at all, they might be white golf balls hailing from above.
maltedfalcon
some of those do look like balls on tees
erexere
Maybe my previous theory on tea etiquette, thumb at 6 o'clock and pinky at 12 o'clock, is our "golf tee"
I sense the contrast here is possibly about etquette as about behaving correctly and prison as about behaving incorrectly.
erexere
Here there are some good characteristics to suspect this match. There's a turn in the path right where the part of the hair terminates and there is a nub in the curve at the Y on both.
maltedfalcon
that is similar.
your lower arrow is basically pointing at the spot.but up near the parking lot.
maltedfalcon
there is no doubt in my mind this is the spot
I hope to here back today or tomorrow permission to dig.
erexere
Wait for it...wait for it... here's my idea on how to pinpoint the spot, using door, fountain, lamp post top in the image to recreate a perspective, basically the white, yellow and blue lines are all suppose to be the same in both images, only one is overhead and one is funky 2D painting perspective based on one of BP's polaroids. This is only an example. It's hard to get it perfect from where I'm sitting. Get on sight and do the visual math, you'll have a casque before a seagull can paint a target on your head.
Notice that the Red Dot is arbitrarily chosen to be where the yin yang symbol is and is also where the casque might be. Now I question what is the direction of Twain's attention, downtown SF then, or perhaps the direction of the island of Hawaii where he next traveled after SF?
maltedfalcon
By my calculations you missed by about 30 - 40 yards.
erexere
OUch, I don't know how much more humbling I can take after shecrab dropping the ACME' anvil on me for my faux-numero-pas.
I don't mind that 'highway 1' theory much, but that means using some verse to move you on the path from GGP to Lincoln Park, whaddupwithat?
The rose has been next on my mind...could it be a blob representation of Joan of Arc's statue just to the left of the lamp post top from wherever you need to stand when about to dig?
maltedfalcon
no it doesnt,
The picture path works perfectly to get you to the door The Palace in the Legion of honor.
Without any verse whatsoever.
Remember it is possible the pole was not there in the 80s therefore verse 7 would be the wrong verse.
Technically using just the image we are up to 8 site confirmers.
head = parking lot
hair part = path next to the casque
El Cid
barred window
Golf balls on tees
Shape under the table. - one of four is the probable shape (1- The original Lincoln Highway marker, The Seaman's memorial, The lampposts, or the memorial that was at the peak end of the parking lot which is no longer there,)
34th ave
Lincoln's head
Regardless of the verse we are in the right spot.
maltedfalcon
progress- I have made contact with the head groundskeeper.
If anyone else is trying to help by getting permission,
please let me take care of it as multiple people calling will likely piss them off. (as happened in Florida)
I will keep you all posted.
erexere
And the fountain is likely the tabletop. I think you'll need three particular image confirmers to concentrate on the exact spot, which is what my last visual estimate attempted. How else do you do it without a very specific verse instruction? Verse seven just says "hey, in that direction"...not too sharp.
maltedfalcon
you stop when you see the stuff in the image.
ie the barred door.
and or the head shaped parking lot.
now you look for a verse that fits the treasure ground.
its going to be either v7 or v5
if the pole was there its v7 if not its v5
the two spot are only 30 yards apart. whichever verse it is,
I will dig in one spot then if no luck go dig in the other.
The verse 5 spot is on the golfcourse though...
the trouble with the v5 spot is being on the golf course, it gets more grounds keeping and its possible the white rocks have been moved...
erexere
I see how v5 mostly works, but I am lost with the first lines...what is two twenty two?
maltedfalcon
the golden gate is a sea lane
the space under the bridge is 222 feet tall
and or the ggbridge is sf local landmark 222
erexere
Ah, right, I read that not too long ago. You know my position on v5 as paired with i6, but I can't claim it's rock solid, so its wise to allow a range of considerations.
I must right away consider what alternate verse would work for my Rooster Rock theory. It might surprise me to give a try. Two weeks ago I was set on v7 with i7...
Now I'm looking into devious elves further and I have a moderate theory brewing based on Puck, Shakespeare, and how it might be related to hockey, the founder of the Stanley Cup, relating to a park in Vancouver BC where a memorial to 20's US prez Warren G. Harding,
him of Hard word
. Interesting that it has two statues with hands close to meeting and there is a fascinating composition to be found where their heads look similar to the character of image 9, which has for so long been related to a Montreal theory based on the Leg Eater lamp...a perfect match...argh...but the hoof and facial characteristics beg to be Puck of Shakespeare. Watch put, I'm about to drop a new crazy theory.
maltedfalcon
just show me how it applies to both Chicago and cleveland ( and SF and Houston )
if it does
I will consider it.
but it it is just a one off theory that only applies to one casque that hasnt been found yet
ehhh.
maltedfalcon
Permission to dig granted !-
Wont be able to dig until early in January
have to sign up as volunteer with grounds keepers present.
Forms to fill out...
quite excited...
erexere
Good job. I haven't permission to dig in Corbett, but I'm clear to poke a screwdriver in the ground. They said I could dig if GPR worked, but I've read that GPR is less than ideal when looking for a hunk of plastic wrapped ceramic.
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
its going to be either v7 or v5
Unknown:
Palace of the Legion of Honor is the western terminus of the Lincoln Highway, the first road across America
Are you ruling out V6...? We're in Lincoln Park after all...
maltedfalcon
nothing is ruled out til we dig up a casque,
but I dont see a connection for v6
mabye I am being dense -
I dont see an RLS connection or an Edwin/Edwina either.
and there definitly arent any white houses around...
what do you see?
WhiteRabbit
(...not a lot. Interesting location though...)
erexere
Maltedfalcon, where exactly is that plaque you mentioned about the Spreckles "air smells sweet" connection? Is it closer to the parking lot or farther back behind the Thinker?
maltedfalcon
inside to the right of the archway on the wall
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
I
dont see an RLS connection
Robert Louis Stephenson Elementary School is on 34th.
(Mosaic?)
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
I dont see an RLS connection
Robert Louis Stephenson Elementary School is on 34th.
(Mosaic?)
maltedfalcon
for my theory that doesnt work, it's totally the wrong direction on 34th
south
of
GGpark.
The RLS connection would need to be in lincoln park where the verse would start.
According to my theory, the verse is totally contained in the treasure ground.
Then again,
I
could be totally wrong.
maltedfalcon
for my theory that doesnt work, it's totally the wrong direction on 34th
south of GGpark.
The RLS connection would need to be in lincoln park where the verse would start.
According to my theory, the verse is totally contained in the treasure ground.
Then again, I could be totally wrong.
WhiteRabbit
(I don't see much mileage in it either; just adding it to the catalogue of useless information...
)
WhiteRabbit
(
I
don't see much mileage in it either; just adding it to the catalogue
of
useless information...
)
WhiteRabbit
I've just been revisiting the GGP overlay. It occurred to me that it was previously presented with the dragon face down, but it would be more logical to present it with the dragon face up to align the GH with Great Highway on the map.
This shows up some possible correspondences like the Tao symbol, "the way", on Lincoln Way.
There are various other parts of the map you might focus on. Eg, "Between two arms extended, below the bar that binds", could describe the area between the dragon's arms under the barred window. From Roanoke we know that verses can describe things in images. Or you could look at the Tao, now near the top of 34th which has RLS Elementary. Or you could consider the fact that the image corresponds to June/Gemini/II and look at the "II" near the dragon's mouth etc.
However, my favourite trail is still from Portsmouth Square to Lafayette Square as set out here:
hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc ... ftrail.pdf
It's often been suggested that the picture leads to the city, and the verse leads to the spot, so despite the prominence of GGP, I'm regarding it as an "iconic image" like Milwaukee City Hall. The chinese dragon stuff is equally prominent, and this belongs in Chinatown. Portsmouth Square is nicknamed the "Heart of Chinatown". GGP on the other hand has little to do with the Chinese, unless you go looking in one of the pavilions, but there's nothing in any of the verses that takes you there.
WhiteRabbit
I
've just been revisiting the GGP overlay. It occurred to me that it was previously presented with the dragon face down, but it would be more logical to present it with the dragon face up to align the GH with Great Highway on the map.
This shows up some possible correspondences like the Tao symbol, "the way", on Lincoln Way.
There are various other parts
of
the map you might focus on. Eg, "Between two arms extended, below the bar that binds", could describe the area between the dragon's arms under the barred window. From Roanoke we know that verses can describe things in images. Or you could look at the Tao, now near the top
of
34th which has RLS Elementary. Or you could consider the fact that the image corresponds to June/Gemini/II and look at the "II" near the dragon's mouth etc.
However, my favourite trail is still from Portsmouth Square to Lafayette Square as set out here:
hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc ... ftrail.pdf
It's often been suggested that the picture leads to the city, and the verse leads to the spot, so despite the prominence
of
GGP,
I
'm regarding it as an "iconic image" like Milwaukee City Hall. The chinese dragon stuff is equally prominent, and this belongs in Chinatown. Portsmouth Square is nicknamed the "Heart
of
Chinatown". GGP on the other hand has little to do with the Chinese, unless you go looking in one
of
the pavilions, but there's nothing in any
of
the verses that takes you there.
fox
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I
've just been revisiting the GGP overlay. It occurred to me that it was previously presented with the dragon face down, but it would be more logical to present it with the dragon face up to align the GH with Great Highway on the map.
I
really like this overlay. Having inverted the image, things line up nicely...especially the way the Great Highway lines up with our GH and how 41st Ave runs across her hands (only if her fingers were pointing at a "41"). This park seems like prime real estate for hiding a casque but
I
suppose it could just be our city confirmer.
fox
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I've just been revisiting the GGP overlay. It occurred to me that it was previously presented with the dragon face down, but it would be more logical to present it with the dragon face up to align the GH with Great Highway on the map.
I really like this overlay. Having inverted the image, things line up nicely...especially the way the Great Highway lines up with our GH and how 41st Ave runs across her hands (only if her fingers were pointing at a "41"). This park seems like prime real estate for hiding a casque but I suppose it could just be our city confirmer.
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Good call jimerson.
you had it that way last april...
and all my images
of
ggpark overlayed had it that way, but the servers they were hosted on are long gone ,so are the images...
you need to resize you dragon a bit though...
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Good call jimerson.
you had it that way last april...
and all my images of ggpark overlayed had it that way, but the servers they were hosted on are long gone ,so are the images...
you need to resize you dragon a bit though...
maltedfalcon
Once upon a time
I
said
I
thought the weird blue shape in image one looked a bit like the south end
of
North Lake.
Since that time people have gone back through the boards and read that message then gone to google maps or Google earth and looked at North Lake, then sent me emails or messages saying
I
was totally wrong.
In an effort to head off any more
of
those messages
I
would like to say here is a comparison
which includes the GGPARk tourist map from 1990, the current GGpark tourist map and The current google map view.
This just gives you a bit
of
an idea how much the area has really changed in 30 some years.
maltedfalcon
Once upon a time I said I thought the weird blue shape in image one looked a bit like the south end of North Lake.
Since that time people have gone back through the boards and read that message then gone to google maps or Google earth and looked at North Lake, then sent me emails or messages saying I was totally wrong.
In an effort to head off any more of those messages I would like to say here is a comparison
which includes the GGPARk tourist map from 1990, the current GGpark tourist map and The current google map view.
This just gives you a bit of an idea how much the area has really changed in 30 some years.
maltedfalcon
I
am disheartend to report that
I
went to Lincoln park and dug, but came up empty.
We dug 4 separate spots all with the assumption that the giant step was the 4 or 5 foot drop from the parking lot to the dirt.
When we were there we did notice one thing. the Door with the bars, The flagpole location, the apex
of
the parking lot and Fort Point (an object that mark twain visited and wrote about) All line up in a straight line.
needless to say we dug along that line next to the retaining wall and one giant step away from the wall. We found nothing but old and new irrigation pipes. (cast iron and PVC) (and some syringes with needles)
We also dug to the left and right
of
that area.
and in the direction
of
Down town SF from the flagpole (basically in line with the seamans memorial against the retaining wall)
What
I
found from talking with the people who work there, was that along that hillside lots
of
earth (sand actually) has been moved around. in the early 90s the parking area was renovated and new irrigation pipes and utility conduits were installed.
most likely its still there but might be deeper than it was originally.
The Grounds crew were really friendly and helpful and lent us shovels and helpful advice.
If BP were still around
I
bet we were close enough that he would have said so.
maltedfalcon
I am disheartend to report that I went to Lincoln park and dug, but came up empty.
We dug 4 separate spots all with the assumption that the giant step was the 4 or 5 foot drop from the parking lot to the dirt.
When we were there we did notice one thing. the Door with the bars, The flagpole location, the apex of the parking lot and Fort Point (an object that mark twain visited and wrote about) All line up in a straight line.
needless to say we dug along that line next to the retaining wall and one giant step away from the wall. We found nothing but old and new irrigation pipes. (cast iron and PVC) (and some syringes with needles)
We also dug to the left and right of that area.
and in the direction of Down town SF from the flagpole (basically in line with the seamans memorial against the retaining wall)
What I found from talking with the people who work there, was that along that hillside lots of earth (sand actually) has been moved around. in the early 90s the parking area was renovated and new irrigation pipes and utility conduits were installed.
most likely its still there but might be deeper than it was originally.
The Grounds crew were really friendly and helpful and lent us shovels and helpful advice.
If BP were still around I bet we were close enough that he would have said so.
WhiteRabbit
I'm sorry that you can't be persuaded to broaden the search. I really don't think this was the spot. But well done for breaking soil. We'll find one yet.
WhiteRabbit
I
'm sorry that you can't be persuaded to broaden the search.
I
really don't think this was the spot. But well done for breaking soil. We'll find one yet.
erexere
I thought you had it nailed. The soil irrigation work sounds like a serious problem if that's the case. Any pics you can share or a detail of the line you worked with?
erexere
I
thought you had it nailed. The soil irrigation work sounds like a serious problem if that's the case. Any pics you can share or a detail
of
the line you worked with?
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I'm sorry that you can't be persuaded to broaden the search. I really don't think this was the spot. But well done for breaking soil. We'll find one yet.
Seriously thats funny, I will consider any and all possibilities, I always say until we find a casque one theory is as good as another.
I honestly cannot say with certainty which verse goes with image 1, so there are lots of possibilities. and I have been really really trying to fit all kinds of other places into the image.
In the meantime, I tried and tried everything in GGpark for years. then I tried Portsmouth Square, Coit Tower, Fort Point, Lafayette Park
Alta Plaza Park, Alamo Square, The columbarium, Buena Vista Park, Twin Peaks, Grand View. Sutro Heights, Lands end, China Beach, Cliff House, Ft Mason, Chrissy Field. Treasure Island and Yerba Buena. I have been on the ground in every one of these spots with my book checking for possibilites.
I suspect the image has an iconic image and indicates the path to the treasure ground.
I know the image will contain images that are viewable from the treasure ground.
Lincoln Park has it all:
A Lincoln - his face is left of the lady in the rocks
B The Barred arched door of the legion of honor - above the lady
C The statue of El Cid. - left of the lady
D The shape of the parking lot - The lady's head
E The shape of the path next to the Parking Lot - the part in her hair
F The fountain (table top)
F Its on 34th ave - her fingers point to 3 and 4 when mirrored.
G Its in the Lat/Lon - in her hair.
Also fun to note if you mirror the park image, then Lincoln's face is on the North Side of the Park- Lincoln park is north of GGpark, Lincoln Ave is south.
However if you have a better possibility I am open to going to look.
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I
'm sorry that you can't be persuaded to broaden the search.
I
really don't think this was the spot. But well done for breaking soil. We'll find one yet.
Seriously thats funny,
I
will consider any and all possibilities,
I
always say until we find a casque one theory is as good as another.
I
honestly cannot say with certainty which verse goes with image 1, so there are lots
of
possibilities. and
I
have been really really trying to fit all kinds
of
other places into the image.
In the meantime,
I
tried and tried everything in GGpark for years. then
I
tried Portsmouth Square, Coit Tower, Fort Point, Lafayette Park
Alta Plaza Park, Alamo Square, The columbarium, Buena Vista Park, Twin Peaks, Grand View. Sutro Heights, Lands end, China Beach, Cliff House, Ft Mason, Chrissy Field. Treasure Island and Yerba Buena.
I
have been on the ground in every one
of
these spots with my book checking for possibilites.
I
suspect the image has an iconic image and indicates the path to the treasure ground.
I
know the image will contain images that are viewable from the treasure ground.
Lincoln Park has it all:
A Lincoln - his face is left
of
the lady in the rocks
B The Barred arched door
of
the legion
of
honor - above the lady
C The statue
of
El Cid. - left
of
the lady
D The shape
of
the parking lot - The lady's head
E The shape
of
the path next to the Parking Lot - the part in her hair
F The fountain (table top)
F Its on 34th ave - her fingers point to 3 and 4 when mirrored.
G Its in the Lat/Lon - in her hair.
Also fun to note if you mirror the park image, then Lincoln's face is on the North Side
of
the Park- Lincoln park is north
of
GGpark, Lincoln Ave is south.
However if you have a better possibility
I
am open to going to look.
WhiteRabbit
MF - respect, you've obviously done much more than anyone else to further the SF puzzle and others.
I
'd never have heard
of
Portsmouth Square if you hadn't told me about it.
You know what
I
think about this puzzle.
I
've posted it repeatedly.
hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc ... ftrail.pdf
I
didn't know you'd checked out Lafayette.
I
'd like to see more info and photos about the place.
Peace.
WhiteRabbit
MF - respect, you've obviously done much more than anyone else to further the SF puzzle and others. I'd never have heard of Portsmouth Square if you hadn't told me about it.
You know what I think about this puzzle. I've posted it repeatedly.
hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc ... ftrail.pdf
I didn't know you'd checked out Lafayette. I'd like to see more info and photos about the place.
Peace.
cw0909
hi maltedfalcon,i didnt realize how much boots and shovel,work you have done,
the table with the clock,every time i look,or think about it, it reminds me of a post clock
in the img the clock is on the wrong end of table,has there ever been one near the park,
or in the pk,or one now
a post clock
hxxp://www.itsabouttime.ca/dbfiles/images/gf5.jpg
cw0909
hi maltedfalcon,
i
didnt realize how much boots and shovel,work you have done,
the table with the clock,every time
i
look,or think about it, it reminds me
of
a post clock
in the img the clock is on the wrong end
of
table,has there ever been one near the park,
or in the pk,or one now
a post clock
hxxp://www.itsabouttime.ca/dbfiles/images/gf5.jpg
erexere
I
posted something along these lines already, but
I
hadn't considered the strong triangle approach.
I
'm guessing he used the Betsy Ross pole as the 90 degree portion
of
a right triangle which is usually denoted by a small square, the Flag in this case. He then went over the rail to a spot that lines up the top
of
a lamp post with the center
of
fountain. The archway completes the triangle and has perspective with the fountain as the gate and table in the image just as you see them with respect to the woman. The yellow dots are lamp posts. The green box is the area where the casque might be found.
Falc, did you dig in that area?
erexere
I posted something along these lines already, but I hadn't considered the strong triangle approach. I'm guessing he used the Betsy Ross pole as the 90 degree portion of a right triangle which is usually denoted by a small square, the Flag in this case. He then went over the rail to a spot that lines up the top of a lamp post with the center of fountain. The archway completes the triangle and has perspective with the fountain as the gate and table in the image just as you see them with respect to the woman. The yellow dots are lamp posts. The green box is the area where the casque might be found.
Falc, did you dig in that area?
fox
I was thinking more in the area around the large tree almost directly right of your square....just over the railing.
fox
I
was thinking more in the area around the large tree almost directly right
of
your square....just over the railing.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
Image 1 seems to give us a lamp post and surely the archway entrance to the Legion of Honor. The Fountain too.
How exactly does the verse work for this spot? If you can decide what verse it is? :P
Most of these image matches are highly generic. I mean, which of these arches is a better match, the Legion of Honour, or the "white house"...?
As for the fountain/tabletop comparison, it's basically a circle.
Even if you can find image matches, it means nothing without a verse. We know from puzzles like New Orleans that references could be anywhere in the city.
The verse is the key. It's not a bolt-on.
erexere
Verse 7.
I don't see a circle. I see an oval.
Take a circular object like a dinner plate and hold it in front of you like you are driving and holding a steering wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock, then tilt it til you see it in the same perspective as the table top seen in the image. How many degrees is that? That will be the key to finding your distance above or below the plane. How wide do you think the table is, 1 ft. diameter?
Modifying my original idea to fit perspective on the table being about the size of a dinner plate held by a person standing a couple meters away and estimating the diameter of the fountain at about 22 meters I find an arc can be drawn that puts us about 55 meters from the fountain. Perhaps the green diamond just a bit farther away from the green box is about the right spot.
Remember the lamp top matches closely the top of the watch?
Here I noticed from street view that the top of the lamp post (yellow circle) nearly lines up just above the railing with the stanchions(or is it called a balustrade?). Perhaps the Betsy Ross pole (Giant Pole). At this distance the size of the fountain would fit an image perspective matching the size of the table top. The only trick here is you can't see the fountain from down below the plane, but you can fit the perspective and find the distance by going up top on the paved path on the other side of the fountain and count your steps, then you just see how many steps that is from the basic arc that follows the railing, then move along the arc, traversing the edge of Hole 15 (Near Ace is High - 15 is next to 14) and you find a spot where the arch of the Legion of Honor is just above and to the left of the head of a persons standing where the casque is buried.
erexere
MaltedFalcon, or anyone with a camera, would you please take a picture from about 2 meters away of a person standing in the archway of the Legion of Honor with just enough angle that the fountain is to the left of the person. If I'm visualizing this correctly, it will match the image of the woman and table top. This is a very easy thing to test.
I'm basically looking for the opposite version of this image only fountain and archway are reversed...so far i've been unable to find a good fountain picture from the archway perspective.
WhiteRabbit
If, after following
this logical path
through the likeliest verse with plausible visual confirmers, you end up here...
...the only remaining question is, where is that place between two arms extended, below the bar that binds...?
I suppose the simplest answer would be between two tennis players, two [with] arms extended, below the bar surrounding the court. Here's a close-up...
I'd check out the lie of the land by the edge of the court, in the middle, on the side of the house. Maybe you could even see one of those arched windows from there. Unless you decided the Legion of Honour arch was a better fit after all.
I'll give it a rest now. ;)
erexere
Unknown:
After reviewing a copy of Etiquette Faux Pas and Other Misconceptions About Afternoon Tea by Ellen Easton, sources in the British Royal Household confirm the information as correct with the comments: "We would not make any amendments to the text" and "What a good article." - September, 2004
Due to the new popularity of Afternoon Tea many people have jumped on the bandwagon, including hotels, caterers, party planners and protocol & etiquette “experts”. While their enthusiasm is well intended, unfortunately a great deal of misinformation is being perpetuated by these “experts”.
While etiquette and customs do evolve over time, some issues are not negotiable. Just because some customs are practiced does not validate the behavior. Of course the tea police will not be lurking behind your kettles, but if one is going to embrace such a lovely and genteel genre I would like to set the record straight. As a descendant of one of Europe's old line aristocratic families, I feel privileged to be able to share the protocols that have been passed down from century to century with you.
1. Pinkies Up! Originally, all porcelain teacups were made in China, starting around 620 A.D. These small cups had no handles. In order for one not to spill the hot liquid onto oneself, the proper way to hold the vessel was to place ones
thumb at the six o'clock position and ones index and middle fingers at the twelve o'clock position,
while gently raising ones pinkie up for balance.
...
I keep wondering about the clock and the two hands, big hand (thumb) at 6 o'clock and little hand (pinky) at 12 o'clock and still I find this ettiquette reference the best as it also incorporates other elements, tea in Chinese culture and Tee time in Golf culture (white orbs as plausible golf ball reference).
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
If, after following
this logical path
through the likeliest verse with plausible visual confirmers, you end up here...
WR,
My trouble with this theory is it is based on the verse alone, not the image,
You are using the RLS quote to start at Portsmouth square,
Then jumping to the picture path method to go from Portsmouth square to Lafayette Park.
Then jumping back into the verse.
If this does work then you have to explain away the GGpark in the image. In the two found casques the Windmill and the bowman, and the Terminal Tower and the triangle, All were located along the logical route to the treasure ground. GGpark is not anywhere near the route from Portsmith square to Lafayette.
Then when you get there There is nothing in the image that are site confirmers
The arched windows on the white building are too flat along the top and are not barred. What else in the image is matched in the park?
maltedfalcon
cw0909 wrote::
has there ever been one near the park,
or in the pk,or one now
a post clock
I thought that it loooked like that too! but no I have not found one in Lincoln park or GGpark and as far as I know there has never been a post clock in those places, however there is a large floral clock at the Conservatory of flowers in ggpark.
The nearest post clock is on market street near powell
hxxp://www.google.com/imgres?q=post+clo ... 29,r:3,s:0
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Verse 7.
I don't see a circle. I see an oval.
I don't get quite why you are choosing to use this method, while a neat idea, nothing like that was used in Chicago or Cleveland
Beyond site confirmers The image wasnt used for digging up the treasure the verse was.
So how does the verse apply to this? and which verse are you applying?
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Verse 7.
In this image the flagpole is too far to the left, It would have been about where the right side of the yellow circle crosses the railing.
maltedfalcon
fox wrote::
I was thinking more in the area around the large tree almost directly right of your square....just over the railing.
Yes we dug there and and then to the area below that near/in front of the yellow dot.
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
WR,
My trouble with this theory is it is based on the verse alone, not the image
My problem with your theory is the opposite!
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
I don't get quite why you are choosing to use this method, while a neat idea, nothing like that was used in Chicago or Cleveland
Beyond site confirmers The image wasnt used for digging up the treasure the verse was.
So how does the verse apply to this? and which verse are you applying?
Correct. You understand exactly where I am deviating. I am using verse 7. I am operating on an adaptive theory based on the methods being variable as opposed to empirically static as you have defined your approach. I don't disagree with many of your points, but there are gaps and problems with your approach that Ive resolved with a different approach.
fox
erexere wrote::
I don't disagree with many of your points, but there are gaps and problems with your approach that Ive resolved with a different approach.
This is where you keep losing me erexere. These aren't highly scientific theorems that can be worked out several ways....they are simply a puzzle that when solved...is solved. My challenge for you is to take either the Chicago find or the Cleveland find and work them out a completely different way and come up with the same dig site.
I'm just confused...thats all :-\
erexere
The puzzles arent uniformly consistent. Cleveland presented actual numbers in print. The other images have skewed numbers if any at all for lat/long. Nothing to be confused about. Some are easy and some are hard. Paintings were rendered from photographs and spruced up with artististic license. Recognizing the match worthy details is a more challenging in some cases than others and entirely subjective.
My approach with using a circle or a triangle isnt complicated or the least bit unreasonable if the situaton calls for it. Continued objection to my methods by reference to how other images were solved is fine, but it sould be understood that there isnt any proof BP didnt vary his methods.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
but it sould be understood that there isnt any proof BP didnt vary his methods.
True- yet it was by assuming he used a consistent method, that I was able to solve Image 1
to Lincoln Park.
The other thing that your solution requires is a aerial photograph or map. there would be no other way to draw your triangles and paths.
however specifically we have been told , All you need is the image and a verse.
Everything you need to solve the puzzle is there.
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
The other thing that your solution requires is a aerial photograph or map. there would be no other way to draw your triangles and paths.
however specifically we have been told , All you need is the image and a verse.
Everything you need to solve the puzzle is there.
No, I don't base any of my solution on aerial work. I do take advantage of it to convey my understanding of the puzzle. My visualizations stem from looking for a particular perspective once the image gets us to the spot where the verse says "the air smells sweet". My virtual perspective shows me the fountain circle at a distance which matches the oval shape of the table top in the image. I then count paces till I reach the fountain. Then I walk around to it's opposite side and count paces to the railing as I pass the Betsy Ross pole and the little pyramid shaped step monument stone (is that still there or was that also removed?). I then climb over or walk to the other side of the railing and search for a visual on where the top of a lamp post just peeks over the rail above a balustrade and turn my head to view the sweet arch once again to check my perspective. Then I double check my position by counting off the remaining paces between myself and the wall.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
the little pyramid shaped step monument stone (is that still there or was that also removed?).
good catch, I thought I was the only one to notice that.
no it is long gone, however it was topped by a monument that looked lamp shaped.
unfortunately I only have a very long distance photo of this object, nothing conclusive.
I believe but cannot in any way prove. This is the silhouette under the table
(at least I am hoping that)
erexere
I figured out that my idea with using triangles to measure distance first applied to the satellite aerial and then compared to an angles approach in the image is 99.6 percent. For the aerial I used the points measure feature in wikimapia and on the paper I used a metric ruler.
I skipped geometry in school and so I had no idea that a circles and triangles are almost interchangeable in some applications.
forest_blight
Malt -- here is another picture of the monument in question:
hxxp://www.lincolnhighwayassoc.org/ca/t ... iews.shtml
erexere
Here's the deal. The yellow writing is the angle which is the same in both constructions.
I'm beginning to consider the "Giant Step" is really an instruction to "Make a Triangle". I recommend using a compass to set your angles and count your paces. Stand at the center of the sweet arch and set your compass arrow to the spot where the Flag pole use to be and then adjust about 21 degrees and follow that heading about 100 paces (515 feet).
Here's an idea for the Object of Twain's attention, Joan of Arc statue is first across and then we go North in Jewel's direction.
Joan of Arc circled in red. Lamp post circled in orange.
Hirudiniforme
the right half of the "pot" in the middle of GGP on this image... what kind of bird would you say that is with the long finger feathers on its wing? a hawk? an eagle?
and where are the golf balls on the tee you all are talking about being a site confirmer?
erexere
I don't see a birdie...
I'm saying the many moons are like golf balls.
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
the right half of the "pot" in the middle of GGP on this image... what kind of bird would you say that is with the long finger feathers on its wing? a hawk? an eagle?
where exactly do you mean
what pot?
fox
erexere wrote::
The puzzles arent uniformly consistent. Cleveland presented actual numbers in print. The other images have skewed numbers if any at all for lat/long. Nothing to be confused about. Some are easy and some are hard. Paintings were rendered from photographs and spruced up with artististic license. Recognizing the match worthy details is a more challenging in some cases than others and entirely subjective.
Fair enough. I never said the puzzles were all done the exact same way. I believe very similar but not exactly like each other. That being said....the challenge still stands. Use a completely different method and get to the correct dig site for either Chicago or Cleveland. Unless BP was a genius, I do not see how MF can work his theory and get to the exact dig site while you work your completely different theory and get to the SAME EXACT site. For that to happen, BP would have had to have multiple layers of various puzzles for each IV pairing so that if one got confused or stuck with one method....well low and behold, there are several other methods to try.
erexere
Hirudiniforme wrote::
I see that is just a classic style dragons wing. For my own pet theory, Id like to think the "pot" fits with a tea theme, but that's not really useful information as I see the dragon as the basic Chinese element and something iconic for BP as a writer of dragon stories. The whole grid pattern has me thinking "graph paper", which is why the triangles idea has been my focus lately.
erexere
fox wrote::
Fair enough. I never said the puzzles were all done the exact same way. I believe very similar but not exactly like each other. That being said....the challenge still stands. Use a completely different method and get to the correct dig site for either Chicago or Cleveland. Unless BP was a genius, I do not see how MF can work his theory and get to the exact dig site while you work your completely different theory and get to the SAME EXACT site. For that to happen, BP would have had to have multiple layers of various puzzles for each IV pairing so that if one got confused or stuck with one method....well low and behold, there are several other methods to try.
Oh, I didn't catch your drift the first time, this is a very interesting point you're making. I have worked a path to the same site very differently than MF but only after stumbling exhaustively over so many other floppy ideas and the gamut of verse choices: Fairy Mountain in Glenwood Springs, Colorado
, Japanese Internment camps, Tanforan, Grand View Park, Twin Peaks, Russian Hill, Union Square, the Exploratorium and Dolores Park. All things "Stone wall" have put me on several outlandish ideas. BP is a subtle artistic genius who has found ways to express deep connections through simple and efficient means....He gives me a stone wall and I show up with a ladder that is much too short.
I honestly can't see a clearly different path to the Cleveland solve. I'm in agreement with most of the published solve. I differ in the opinion about Euclid as an abstraction to the triangle in a sphere. Not being natively familiar with that local area, I can only see the solution in terms of having a little luck catching hold of the trail to the gardens, but once there in the Greek section I agree that the verse is explicitly detailed on how to locate the casque once you reach the columns.
Chicago, hmm...that one is terribly non-linear although MF explains it very succinctly with just a couple turns once you locate the start of the path at the Water Tower. All things considered it looks somewhat more challenging than Cleveland, but simple and straight forward enough in retrospect. I don't imagine I would've been able to solve it even if I was raised in Chicago. When I first got into this hunt, a short time ago really, I was really having trouble understanding the Congress reference. It doesn't take much to get tripped up in these verses. Cleveland being the exception, although 'beneath two countries' had my head spinning till I saw the spoilers.
Cleveland was also different in the regard that JJP was more or less the inspiration for that location and possibly some of the loose connections to build a clear path through illustration alone. He does much of the same with image 5 and uses the hat like a maze that advertises a literal walk through a city.
Iconic elements in all the images guide us to a generally correct idea. Montreal, Roanoke, New Orleans, Michigan, and Charleston are strongly suggested by iconic rendering. Boston looks solid more from a verse rendering, but the image confirmers are definite for me. NYC, St.Louis, and Florida look close, but seem iffy for not having more exact iconic visuals. There's no denying Ponce, but the Florida shape could be a little more crisp.
Up to this point, I've skimmed and delved through a lot of history and architecture. My literary background isn't so strong, and my chemistry background keeps surfacing on occasion as if I expect everything might be distilled or synthesized. Now I can't hep but wonder why I come across so many nook and cranny ideas that want to fill the gaps, like things do do with Presidents, Generals, Chess, Birds, Beacons, Squares, Bells, Towers, Government, Women, and Sculptures. I think of these items as little riddles to entertain us obsessive types in an all consuming way.
Sorry Fox, I'm off point, I just can't see how we can completely follow an image path for all the casques. I see that method as exhausted with the completion of the easier Cleveland and Chicago solutions.
shecrab
Unknown:
Sorry Fox, I'm off point, I just can't see how we can completely follow an image path for all the casques. I see that method as exhausted with the completion of the easier Cleveland and Chicago solutions.
I know you don't like hearing this from me, because I've said it in many ways now many times and it's always irritated you. However, the "image path" you speak of is exactly what we are supposed to do. There is an icon or two in every single painting--and they are NOT "rebused" or changed--it is the
images
that provide us with the
exact
places and objects. It is the
verses
tht are disguised, cryptic, hidden, full of double meanings. The images are essential to finding the location because their components cannot be changed or misinterpreted! How would you know that Image 10 represents MIlwaukee without the
Mill
stone the
Walk
ing stick and the
Key
and the outline of city hall? Nothing in that image represents Germany OR Milwaukee in such a clear, unambiguous way. In Image 11, the bird's claw perfectly matches the outline of the coastline in Boston. Florida's shape in Image 6 may not be as "clear or crisp" as you would like, but then neither was Ohio in Image 4. And the figure of Ponce is EXACT--right down to the striped pantaloons. And no one can deny the outline of Charleston Harbor in Image 2 or the shape of Fort Sumter.
That method cannot be "exhausted" as you have stated. It is the very essence of this puzzle.
erexere
Shecrab, I'm perfectly content respecting what you have to share. I'm actually tired of folks being stingy with their opinions.
My problem but also my inspiration with the Ponce is that it doesn't match exactly. The difference being the St. Augustine Ponce statue is STANDING and the image 6 Ponce is MOUNTED on a horse. I completely agree that BP designed the puzzle to fit St. Augustine, but I see it as red herring. My Corbett theory rests on discovering the popular Native American legend concerning a MOUNTAIN. Image 12 does something like this as well, but I don't see that method being used in the other images, hence my variable adaptive approach.
Image 1 certainly has options for which verse might apply. I'm biased to exclude verse 5 because I have found it applies to image 6. Verse 7 seems more locked in my mind after realizing a stone wall fits the Thinker statue's door.
erexere
Here is the golf holes layout,
hxxp://www.lincolnparkgc.com/Lincoln_Pa ... ecard.html
Near ace is high, interpreted as 14 allows us to see the options on the golf course quickly narrow down to the 15th hole area, since the 13th and the 14th itself are much farther east in the course. The brush covered and wooded area between the 15th hole and El Camino Del Mar is prime.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I don't see a birdie...
Oh I see it, it kind of looks like the us post office eagle, doesnt it?
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I
don't see a birdie...
Oh
I
see it, it kind
of
looks like the us post office eagle, doesnt it?
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
Oh I see it, it kind of looks like the us post office eagle, doesnt it?
I agree it is eagle-like. Isnt An Eagle a type of golfing term?
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
Oh
I
see it, it kind
of
looks like the us post office eagle, doesnt it?
I
agree it is eagle-like. Isnt An Eagle a type
of
golfing term?
Hirudiniforme
This is all rough, but
I
wanted to throw an idea out there.
I
have no idea about the giant pole and step after following what
I
mention below:
Land's End Press was the first publisher
of
Twain's "1601..." (other than anonymous or twain himself)
pick up where you all left off at the stone walls door
...and justice
for all to see (go to flagpole)
Sounds from the sky (??)
Near ace is high (go to hole 14)
Running north (go due north), but first across (el camino del mar)
In jewel's direction (in site's direction)
Is an object
Of
Twain's attention (land's end... eagle's point)
the strand
of
hair matches the path b/w camino del mar and land's end trl
unfortunately,
I
think there are many signs that look like this (with different locations inscribed - sutro, etc.), however...
interestingly, the hands could be roughly making an L and a D... the first and last letters
of
"lands end," specific to this sign.
again, this is rough, but
I
thought
I
'd throw it in the mix (and
i
really do think the resemblance
of
the sleeves and the national park emblem quite good).
Hirudiniforme
This is all rough, but I wanted to throw an idea out there. I have no idea about the giant pole and step after following what I mention below:
Land's End Press was the first publisher of Twain's "1601..." (other than anonymous or twain himself)
pick up where you all left off at the stone walls door
...and justice
for all to see (go to flagpole)
Sounds from the sky (??)
Near ace is high (go to hole 14)
Running north (go due north), but first across (el camino del mar)
In jewel's direction (in site's direction)
Is an object
Of Twain's attention (land's end... eagle's point)
the strand of hair matches the path b/w camino del mar and land's end trl
unfortunately, I think there are many signs that look like this (with different locations inscribed - sutro, etc.), however...
interestingly, the hands could be roughly making an L and a D... the first and last letters of "lands end," specific to this sign.
again, this is rough, but I thought I'd throw it in the mix (and i really do think the resemblance of the sleeves and the national park emblem quite good).
erexere
421, looks like good offerings to me. I'm really happy with the ettiquette approach. In golf, when a ball is in flight towards anyone who might be in the path, the right thing to do is make a sound by raising your voice to shout "Fore!"
I'm still working out my approach with the triangulation idea. Will post results soon.
erexere
421, looks like good offerings to me.
I
'm really happy with the ettiquette approach. In golf, when a ball is in flight towards anyone who might be in the path, the right thing to do is make a sound by raising your voice to shout "Fore!"
I
'm still working out my approach with the triangulation idea. Will post results soon.
Hirudiniforme
Thanks, buddy. Look forward to it.
fox
erexere wrote::
I
agree it is eagle-like. Isnt An Eagle a type
of
golfing term?
erexere wrote::
BP is a subtle artistic genius who has found ways to express deep connections through simple and efficient means....He gives me a stone wall and
I
show up with a ladder that is much too short.
My literary background isn't so strong, and my chemistry background keeps surfacing on occasion as if
I
expect everything might be distilled or synthesized.
Yes, an eagle is 2 under par on a hole.
:app)
You do have a way with words my friend....are you a teacher
of
some sort?
At least you have a ladder :D This is me =====>
fox
erexere wrote::
I agree it is eagle-like. Isnt An Eagle a type of golfing term?
erexere wrote::
BP is a subtle artistic genius who has found ways to express deep connections through simple and efficient means....He gives me a stone wall and I show up with a ladder that is much too short.
My literary background isn't so strong, and my chemistry background keeps surfacing on occasion as if I expect everything might be distilled or synthesized.
Yes, an eagle is 2 under par on a hole.
:app)
You do have a way with words my friend....are you a teacher of some sort?
At least you have a ladder :D This is me =====>
WhiteRabbit
Have people been looking out for the wall that runs across this pic...?
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Have people been looking out for the wall that runs across this pic...?
nope totally missed that
great catch
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
nope totally missed that
great catch
Yeah, that looks like a great catch. Are you thinking railing and fountain?
fox
That is a great catch indeed.
I
'm sure this type
of
bordering could be found almost anywhere though. Here it is running along the building atop the columns...there is a wall section under the bordering at the arched entry.
hmmmmmmm, do you see something in this pic which also ties in with the Cleveland find (think
of
Sir Egg's account
of
his find)? It also ties in quite nicely with accounts
I
have read about one
of
our possible sites at the Elizabethan Gardens.
I
'm sure it's just a coincidence though since it doesnt really fit with the Chicago find.
fox
That is a great catch indeed.
I'm sure this type of bordering could be found almost anywhere though. Here it is running along the building atop the columns...there is a wall section under the bordering at the arched entry.
hmmmmmmm, do you see something in this pic which also ties in with the Cleveland find (think of Sir Egg's account of his find)? It also ties in quite nicely with accounts I have read about one of our possible sites at the Elizabethan Gardens. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though since it doesnt really fit with the Chicago find.
fox
or maybe........
It doesnt seem to have quite the same border but it does flare out like it does in whiterabbit's blow up
of
the wall. The more
I
look at it, the more it looks like the base/pedestal
of
a statue
of
some sort.
fox
or maybe........
It doesnt seem to have quite the same border but it does flare out like it does in whiterabbit's blow up of the wall. The more I look at it, the more it looks like the base/pedestal of a statue of some sort.
erexere
Unknown:
The Geometric Elements. The leverage on these problems comes from the principle of triangular proportionality, the geometry at the heart of all perspective and optical images:
Given two triangles of unequal size, if the three interior angles of one triangle are equal to the three interior angles of the other, then the length of all three sides of the smaller triangle will be in a constant proportion to the length of the corresponding sides of the larger triangle.
The proof appears in Euclid's Elements, Book 6, Proposition 2; and the the optical implications were developed in Euclid's Optics, written c.300 CE.
Euclid was mentioned in the Cleveland solutlion and now I find his triangle proofs will come in handy with San Francisco.
erexere
Unknown:
The Geometric Elements. The leverage on these problems comes from the principle
of
triangular proportionality, the geometry at the heart
of
all perspective and optical images:
Given two triangles
of
unequal size, if the three interior angles
of
one triangle are equal to the three interior angles
of
the other, then the length
of
all three sides
of
the smaller triangle will be in a constant proportion to the length
of
the corresponding sides
of
the larger triangle.
The proof appears in Euclid's Elements, Book 6, Proposition 2; and the the optical implications were developed in Euclid's Optics, written c.300 CE.
Euclid was mentioned in the Cleveland solutlion and now
I
find his triangle proofs will come in handy with San Francisco.
fox
egads, that sure sounds a lot like my son's homework
I
just finished helping him with.
fox
egads, that sure sounds a lot like my son's homework I just finished helping him with.
WhiteRabbit
Considering the prickly nature
of
this image, perhaps these shapes are cacti.
(Needles? Acupuncture?)
WhiteRabbit
Considering the prickly nature of this image, perhaps these shapes are cacti.
(Needles? Acupuncture?)
WhiteRabbit
The Edwin plaque at 440 Bush St is next to the Academy of Art (logo) originally at 215 Kearney (sign)...
WhiteRabbit
The Edwin plaque at 440 Bush St is next to the Academy
of
Art (logo) originally at 215 Kearney (sign)...
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
My trouble with this theory is it is based on the verse alone, not the image
Unknown:
You are using the RLS quote to start at Portsmouth square, then jumping to the picture path method to go from Portsmouth square to Lafayette Park. Then jumping back into the verse.
Unknown:
If this does work then you have to explain away the GGpark in the image.
Unknown:
In the two found casques the Windmill and the bowman, and the Terminal Tower and the triangle, All were located along the logical route to the treasure ground. GGpark is not anywhere near the route from Portsmith square to Lafayette.
Unknown:
Then when you get there There is nothing in the image that are site confirmers
There's an appropriate dragon / barred window mural at the start of the trail as you turn onto Clay from Portsmouth Square. (Might be too recent though.)
One of the things I like about Lafayette is the fact it was used as an evacuation centre during the 1906 fire. Ties in nicely with the "fire-breathing dragon" the Fair Folk brought with them from Cathay.
"And in the 1906 earthquake, Lafayette Square became one of the tent campsites for refugees - with awesome views of the fire and destruction of the city below."
hxxp://www.parkscan.org/parks?parkId=24
It's based primarily on the verse after using the image for SF. I thought that was fairly standard.
No, it's all based on the verse.
It's the iconic image for San Francisco, like the Statue of Liberty is the iconic image for New York, etc. And it's not
that
far away.
I don't believe that every image has to be geographically tied to the trail. I don't think the Statue of Liberty or Milwaukee City Hall are. They're just area clues IMHO.
I've found a couple of possibles, but it's difficult to get more without someone actually visiting the place. I think there's enough evidence to make that worthwhile. It's scheduled for refurbishment this year, and after that it'll be even harder to look.
Here's an updated summary for this trail.
San Francisco theory - PDF
erexere
The historic lamp posts downtown had me systematically running down all the parks and places where trolleys might lead. I only landed on Lincoln Park after Malted answered the question to where other places posts might be found. Slowly as I worked through my bag of odd seeming ideas I really liked most the Emily Post idea with etiquette being an interconnecting theme with Tea time and Tee time. My basic sense is the many "moons" idea and the "smells sweet" with Gh gave us strong evidence to go to the Ghiradelli and Obsrvatory area, which I then decided was a path start and chosen to double as a way of connecting to the end point, becoming the sugar entrance to the PotLoH and then golf balls in Lincoln Park Golf Course where the matter of etiquette applies to a Post. I don't just propose there is a geometric method in this image. I've found the use of perspective for the rendering of this image does more than come from some random Polaroids in the area. There is an exact mathematical approach to processing the respective angles and dimensions of objects in order to find the position where BP stood. This will reveal the image's most significant picture, containing the barred window/door, the fountain, the lamp post, and a borrowed person. Known measurements would be helpful to me. I'd like to know how many paces it takes to walk around the fountain and how wide the is the sweet entryway to The PotLoH. I'm absolutely NOT saying BP intended us to use math. It can be used in a virtual test to outline a rough idea of where to dig. I'm sure you can stand on a specific spot and with the help of another person as a stand in for the robed woman you will see a very good match to the general outline of of the image. The only drawback is seeing through hill and foliage.
maltedfalcon
Well I will be happy to measure anything you want when I go back in Feb.
And I do believe there is geometry involved in the casque placement.
but I think its a straight line.
straight line from the arch through the flagpole to Fort Point. (Mark Twain, The San Francisco Daily Morning Call, July 14, 1864, "INSPECTION OF THE FORTIFICATIONS").
The giant step is the step down from the parking lot.
After speaking with the groundskeeper, He was pretty sure we didn't dig deep enough,
So I plan to go back and dig a very big hole right there.
erexere
Is it possible to sit on the Joan of Arc horse to take a photo of the fountain? I'm interested in that angle as it might be the antipode of an imaginary sphere. I think the casque might fit a dark side of the moon idea if we are looking at a spot below the giant step where we don't have eyes on the fountain or Joan of arc. The problem is finding the center of this sphere. I think you can get around all kinds of funky math by just counting steps to the middle of the Sweet Arch and then turning 90 degrees and counting steps to this center point, Pass the same number of steps beyond and traverse 90 degrees to the hillside below to get to casque.
shecrab
Digging deeper: the casques were buried no more than 3 feet deep, according to the book. In 30 years, this may have sunk a bit, but it's unlikely it sunk that much unless the area was flooded or the ground was very porous and took on a lot of water. In which case, there might not be a casque to dig UP.
maltedfalcon
shecrab wrote::
Digging deeper: the casques were buried no more than 3 feet deep, according to the book. In 30 years, this may have sunk a bit, but it's unlikely it sunk that much unless the area was flooded or the ground was very porous and took on a lot of water. In which case, there might not be a casque to dig UP.
or as in the case of the area I am looking in.
"Hey you know they have dumped dirt here in the past..."
When they put in the irrigation lines, its easier to lay the line and then bury it then just dig a trench first...
forest_blight
malt, if you strike oil, I want a cut.
bigmattyh
shecrab wrote::
Digging deeper: the casques were buried no more than 3 feet deep, according to the book. In 30 years, this may have sunk a bit, but it's unlikely it sunk that much unless the area was flooded or the ground was very porous and took on a lot of water. In which case, there might not be a casque to dig UP.
Yeah. Because of this, I keep thinking it'd be great to get JJP to give us some strong hints, and let us resolve some of these once and for all. I know he wants to keep the hunt alive out of respect for BP but there really just may not be anything to dig up anymore.
shecrab
Well, how would he know? He wasn't informed as to the burial sites, only given pictures. It's unlikely he'd know where any of them were except for Cleveland.
maltedfalcon
I for one, want absolutely no hints.
If
When we find one having hints would cheapen it.
bigmattyh
The casques are getting a lot harder to find, is all. At the current rate, it'll be the year 2040 or so before we find another casque or two.
forest_blight
I'm with malt -- I can wait to 2040 if it means finding a casque through teamwork, inspiration, and logic. Don't want to get handed the answer.
animal painter
The artist was told the city for image 10.
Otherwise he would not have created the "mill-walk-key" rebus.
WhiteRabbit
To be honest, I expect JJP knew more about this puzzle than he's generally given credit for, but it's impossible to know. BP could have given him any amount of stuff to include without explaining it to him in his "dossiers with obscure photos and notes", including this rebus.
WhiteRabbit
Now, although I was certain this casque was somewhere in Lafayette (see
here
), as always, it's been tricky to narrow it down to a couple of square feet. But I've chosen my favourite spot.
I felt this dragon had something to do with it, nosing into the border between courts I and II...
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Tennis court (between two players with arms extended).
Below the bar that binds
This could be any or all of several things...south of Alcatraz, a point below the barred window in Image 1 (eg the "X"), below the railing of the tennis court...but I was also drawn to the cablecar lines beside the road. Considering the wall in the image, I looked here...
This is between the two courts I and II, beside the wall. From here you get a clear view of the courts and palms...
And the post has a possible contender for a bar that binds...
And a sign which accounts for the 68s in the image. (There are three; clock and rose, sets of boxes indicated by the fingers, and this one in the dragon's coils.)
Beside the long palm's shadow
(Double reference to the courts - longue paume - and palms at Lafayette, see above.)
For me, this is it. I haven't seen a credible verse explanation for anywhere else.
Those domed stripey rocks and all the moons are a hint for the
Chabot Observatory
which started here.
There's an avalanche of clues for this place. All it takes to pick up the SF casque is a ten-minute dig at this spot. Bet you $50 it's there! ;D
Friends of Lafayette Park, cleanup and planting first Saturday of every month. What's not to like?
hxxp://www.friendsoflafayettepark.com/m ... ening.html
erexere
Maltedfalcon, I thought I posted this already, maybe I was waiting for an answer to a question about taking a photo from the Joan of Arc statue. It's not important anymore, I've given up on trying the geek-math approach. You're right on top of that casque, so the rest is up to you. I would only suggest that you be willing to look at the possibility that there is a strong visual scale match to a few elements in the picture: fountain, arch, and person standing on casque. The main problem with recreating the image is the negative plane adjustment. You have to "see" the fountain without having line of sight, which means taking a walk and measuring your pace from the opposite side where you can see it. It might seem extremely hard at first when you consider there is a hill in the way, but it's doable, you'll just have to do it a couple times to check your measurements. BP probably walked it twice from both directions and found the same spot with no problem. I bet he was a boyscout.
Good luck.
shecrab
animal painter wrote::
The artist was told the city for image 10.
Otherwise he would not have created the "mill-walk-key" rebus.
Not necessarily. He might have recognized City Hall.
WhiteRabbit
I opened the paper this morning to see an article about the restoration of a copy of the Mona Lisa. She reminds me of this image.
It's an Italian restaurant not far from Portsmouth Square (353 Columbus Ave), though that may be too recent...
erexere
Is that the painting thats most famous for its perfect balance or something?
maltedfalcon
her mysterious smile
erexere
Can someone measure the circumfrence of the pool in the parking lot of the Palace of the Legion of Honor?
I'm doing a simulation with soccer practice cones to verify a specific use of perspective angle to deterimine a distance needed to find the casque at that location.
fox
Perhaps my exact scale model of the site out of modeling clay and a desk lamp as the sun is a bit much. I still can't find the tiny casque I buried.
forest_blight
Fox -- you probably dug down only 2mm. Try 3.5mm.
fox
lol.....I'm having trouble finding a tiny shovel that big FB.
erexere
Modeling clay is really spendy. Play-doh is the next best thing.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Can someone measure the circumfrence of the pool in the parking lot of the Palace of the Legion of Honor?
I'm doing a simulation with soccer practice cones to verify a specific use of perspective angle to deterimine a distance needed to find the casque at that location.
Diameter
waters edge to waters edge 78 feet
outer rim to outer rim 90 feet
just over 887 feet in circumference.
erexere
Thanks maltedfalcon!
I just got back from the parking lot at Best Buy. I used cones, measured out the perspective using those dimensions and I think I'm on the right track. I'm trying to find a very good estimate to start with, but if there is more exacting way to find the spot through fitting the perspective and counting off paces, I hope it will help someone find this.
Working on the data and some picture tests currently, will publish results soon. If I'm right in the way this method is applied, I can reverse engineer the location of my car in the parking lot and it will be in the same place as the table top in the image and my wheel base should be the same length as the table's width. This doesn't prove this method was used by Byron, but if it was, my experiment determines an exact spot for a dig attempt based on matching the position and width of fountain pool relative to the Palace arch from where one would stand to and take a picture. I'm not sure how Byron would've gone about constructing this particular casque puzzle in this way, as it seems a bit complicated and sneaky.
maltedfalcon
So in general terms where is ou theory leading you?
erexere
Well, I concluded that my idea with dependency on the size of the fountain being maintained as a distance perspective is NOT the way to go. If I do so, then I end up pretty far off on the other side of the road below. I have several items I wish to work into the perspective, and it's impossible to put them all into view, which leads me to conclude there's some items in one perspective and then a shift to a different set of items for another perspective. Both perspectives work together some how.
Here's an attempt to sort the items: The watch = lamp post, and the tabletop = 90 ft diameter fountain pool. I found a simple angle of view that indicates it's possible to put the lamp post right in line with the spout center and have the pool's depth and width look very similarly proportioned to the tabletop. I think this is an alignment motif with a direction in mind as a line that points us beyond the railing to the ledge below. (I'll call that the pool vector).
Next, there's some indication of proportionality between the pool's width and the center of the image and a right triangle that might indicate the angle between the pool vector and the arch vector. One thing I did was cut and paste multiple copies of the tabletop to see how many spans would fit along each edge of the triangle. It's one 90ft diameter width between the pool vector and the arch vector. Most of my other lines can be ignored, I was just working some alternate ideas. The white circles are completely arbitrary, look closer and you'll see the tabletops rotated 90 degrees and stacked five high.
Finally, see how the arch vector (starts at right side of the arch) passes a point just 90ft from the center of the fountain (purple circle), and continues to a point past the ledge where it intersects the pool vector (yellow circle). The red circle is the lamp post.
Ignore my distance measures, they are only used to approximate my overall approach. You'll have more success just standing there at the site and marking specific points. Use a balloon or a ribbon to tie at the railing when you locate the pool vector with lamp post and fountain spout, then use whatever means makes sense to you to find it's intersection with the arch vector. I'm guessing you can see the arch even while standing below by the path?
Was this an approach you already tried?
maltedfalcon
no the path is way below the level where you can see the arch
at the spot you have indicated its about 20 feet below the parkinglot level
erexere
Ok. Perhaps we're not meant to have a view of the arch at the final spot. I'm very enthusiastic about the line from the pool vector. I'm not sold on the arch vector as much. Perhaps its just along the wall below the railing.
maltedfalcon
im pretty sure if you draw a line from the arch to the center of the fountain and keep going it would go through the site of the giant flagpole
then keep going over the railing (to the spot of the casque) and then if you keep going straight you run right into
Fort Point the object of twains attention. a straight line
All your image manipulation still needs to come back to from the flagpole to the casque is in the direction of an object of twains attention
your spot by the path isnt, is it?
erexere
No, but I don't follow the same interpretation. What I have done is identify just two specific elements and pursued whether it's possiible to match he perspective in the image, which I have done. The arch and the pool. I think the strong visuals are most important. I don't ccompletely dispute the Betsy Ross Pole as being linked to the verse but I'm not sure its used specifically as a pointer to te casque. The lamp post is also a pole. The pool vector comes from the direction of the Joan of Arc statue. Is Joan of Arc outside the realm of possibilities as an object of Twains attention?
maltedfalcon
The pool vector comes from the direction of the Joan of Arc statue. Is Joan of Arc outside the realm of possibilities as an object of Twains attention?
oh absolutly not Joan is definitly an object of twains attention.
But I still think you are arbitrarily picking and choosing. in the following picture. there are 4
lines
Green - your line fountain through lampost to path edge (note it doesnt point at Joan)
Purple - Joan through fountain to path edge
Red - Joan through flagpole to path edge
Yellow - Joan through lamp post.
Each path seems valid to me using your theory but ends up in a different spot.
another question is why that lamp post, as there are 6 similar lamp posts around the lot. 2 are closer to Joan that that one.
and what about that lamp post counts as Giant. as there are bigger lamp posts in the park within site of the parking lot.
I understand you are working on a different interpretation (more power to you!)
but, the only thing that makes those lamp posts interesting is the high points are three line. but then you choose basically to disregard the
giant pole line and ...
If Joan is your object of twain's attention why are you going away from her when the verse clearly states go toward the object.
and lastly your line that bisects the fountain doesn't even point at Joan. you are fudging by making your line curve, which basically negates all your careful trigonometry.
You are cherry picking to make this fit.
erexere
Maltedfalcon, appreciate your critique of my approach. Clearly there's many ways to look at the problem. I'm not as convinced of anything now that I see the options you counter with.
I've changed my view radically. Now I'm not at all sure were to go. Looking a all lamp posts equally is a good place to start. A couple of ideas I'm still mulling over are with the line Running North, but first across. The embroidery term 'running stitch' might be a link to consider. Betsy Ross' embroidered flag could be North of an essential position. The marker for the Kanrin Maru has the word "first" in its description of the first Japanese embassy to cross to the US. I feel like the flag pole and the Karin Maru memorial are involved here.
erexere
The terminus of the Lincoln Memorial Highway might better signify the first across as the first road across America. I find that a spot directly South of the Betsy Ross Memorial Flagpole has to be important.
maltedfalcon
If you look at the picture just to the right of joan of arch on the street it says Ped Xing.
Just to the right of "Ped" in the clearing between two trees just a few steps from the street is gray/black blob
This is the Lincoln Highway Memorial Marker.
The original location of the Lincoln Highway Memorial Marker was at the peak of the parking lot in line with the arch/fountain/flagpole/Fort Point.
At some time between the 1960s and the 1990s the memorial was removed and then placed in the location it is.
But for several years the memorial was totally gone.
It is possible and actually likely that during the time frame of the creation of the book, there was no Lincoln Highway Memorial Marker in the area at all.
I got this from the Lincoln Highway Association historian.
erexere
So that is possibly a significant detail. Somewhere along the edge of the golf course East of Joan and South of the flagpole or original marker might be where this is heading. Right now I'm definately throwing out all my previous ideas. This is getting very interesting.
erexere
The Rodin statues, the Three Shades which also adorn the Gates of Hell along with the Thinker and point to the Latin phrase for "abandon hope, all who enter" were located at the head of the lot. Just to the right of that the marker was first installed. I'm not definite of this, but I think the original marker was in place in 1980 along with the Betsy Ross flag pole. It may have suffered vandalsm at some point, been stolen or broken.
Wish we had information on when exactly the marker was (re)moved.
maltedfalcon, what do you think of this breakdown? Start at the arch entrance, then walk towards the posts in the plaza, veer to the right towards the golf course and spot an alignment of lamp post over fountain (yellow line at green circle) then continue towards the path that looks like the woman's hair part and follow the part that runs North in the direction of the 15th hole (near ace is high) and spot the alignment of baluster with Lincoln marker (blue dot on pink line) with Betsy Ross, climb up the bank to a point where you stand right along the wall with the baluster looking as big as it is in the image and then turn towards the Joan of Arc for the dig spot? That's so close to where you just dug. I'm thinking this all makes linear sense.
erexere
I came across a sudden inspiration....or a cultish sway in judgment...when I read about Rodin's connection to the Hotel Biron in Paris. After discovering the possibility there is a theme connected to "Jewels from Byron" in new Orleans with the Mystik Krewe of Comus and possibly other avenues or uses of historical nom de "Byron".
...something to think about...damn coincidences.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
veer to the right towards the golf course and spot an alignment of lamp post over fountain
ok why did you veer to the right? just an arbitrary direction or did you have an instruction from the verse or image?
cw0909
maltedfalcon just throwing this out there,and i havent really checked it out,not sure if it was ever mentioned
giant pole giant step.......pole vaulting
not sure ,if or where they pole vault
Kezar Stadium
hxxp://g.co/maps/fsse9
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
ok why did you veer to the right? just an arbitrary direction or did you have an instruction from the verse or image?
After recognizing the lines 4-6 are to do with the Betsy Ross pole and either the lamps which are triple posts OR the Three Shades which are posted atop a wide pedestal, and step towards the fountain from the arch to investigate, I make use of Line 7, "sounds from the sky" as instruction to enter the golf course at the closest heading. Veering to the left encounters a balustrade that connects to the boxed in area dedicated to Francis E. Willard. Veering Southeast towards the 11th hole fairway seems a little counterproductive since we were just looking in the direction of the Betsy Ross. Noticing that the balustrade terminates and a nice easy shortcut to the 2nd hole area is (Near Ace is low) seems more reasonable and is just North of that is the 15th hole (where Ace is high). Finding that the top of lamp post and the fountain fits the image of the watch and table in the image from standing at the balustrades east terminus looks like the confirmation that this path to the golf course is on track. Hopefully this is close to the right idea with using parts of the image to remove doubt where something would otherwise be arbitrary.
I wondered if this might be a close enough match to the balustrade in swapping places between outside and inside walls of the table stand center post:
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
I'm not definite of this, but I think the original marker was in place in 1980 along with the Betsy Ross flag pole. It may have suffered vandalsm at some point, been stolen or broken.
the marker was removed by the groundskeepers after it fell over (probabably bumped by a car and then it was placed in storage.
We aren't exactly sure when this happened. but the groundskeepers believe it was in the late 70s. This concurs with what the people at the lincoln highway association believe
They still have the original
erexere
I read that they are seven feet long. Looks like they had to dig a hole 3 feet down to get them set. Crazy SF drivers!
erexere
Unknown:
The replica marker was placed in 2002 during the revitalized Lincoln Highway Association's 10th Annual National Convention by the Association's California Chapter.
This
article
had me wondering.
Also the Wiki on Lincoln Park says the replica marker was placed in 2002.
I like to reconfirm anything reported by the Lincoln Highway Association whether their response is with respect to the first location, second location, or replica of the marker at the second location.
maltedfalcon
I have a copy of the Lincoln Highway Association History of the Lincoln Highway. SF to Truckee.
I will look it up. but I think it was written before 2002.
erexere
You dragging your talons on this one maltedfalcon? I thought we were on a roll.
This little rock formation looked a little bit like Lincoln...
maltedfalcon
Thats been noted many times and most likely indicates lincoln park.
Its the rainy season here now - waiting for some nicer weather.
puppidou
Hi all, first time posting here but have been fascinated by the hunt since I heard about it a few years ago. Have been researching a bit, and was really trying to make a Golden Gate Park connection work, but stumbled upon something today that I think conclusively puts the treasure in the Fisherman's Wharf / Ghirardelli Square area. While looking on google maps, I noticed for the first time that Lincoln Highway was showing up on North Point Street. I checked other places, and the Lincoln Highway does indeed run along North Point Street. The Lincoln silhouette clue now makes sense in this area, which is reinforced by the peculiar specificity of the reversed "G" and "h", which I think also locates the search in the area of the Ghirardelli Factory. For me, this conclusively links Image 1 and Verse 7, because the air really does smell sweet around Ghirardelli Square, and I haven't been able to come up with another explanation for the line (even flowerbeds, at their most fragrant, don't really smell sweet unless planted with something extremely perfumey). thanks!
WhiteRabbit
Hi puppidou.
There's only two ways to take this treasure hunt forward.
1) Dig a hole
2) Find someone willing to dig a hole
Anything else is prevarication.
WR
erexere
Yeah, I had 3 good days of searching and digging on another hunt the past week. I dug about 20 holes based on a variety of methods. I tried digging where something was out of place, like a bundle of sticks standing upright because a person intentionally placed them there in a spiral pattern, or beneath a single chunk of concrete amidst a ring of natural stones, or a spot exactly in the middle of three equidistant dogwood trees, or at a spot that lines up with a series of objects in a line or right angle. I didn't get bothered by any park rangers or folks walking their dogs. I've found the use of a sturdy 48" copper grounding rod really helps probing depth between 2 and three feet. A small sledge (2 pound) just double the weight of a regular hammer head works well to get the probe down that far quickly. You'll notice if you hit any sturdy object or rock since it's easy to tell the difference between going in smooth and meeting resistance.
puppidou
No prevaricating. Only trying to alert people to Lincoln Highway in this area.
WhiteRabbit
People have been trying to fit something around Ghiradelli Square since 2004. Pinpointing a location from the verse is the problem. But the thing is, even if you had an idea for an exact spot somewhere in the region of Ghiradelli Square, you'd find it virtually impossible to get anyone to investigate it. This hunt can only be solved by someone with a spade and a plane ticket.
maltedfalcon
why would I need a plane ticket?
shecrab
Because it's cheaper than a fancy ticket.
Hirudiniforme
shecrab wrote::
Because it's cheaper than a fancy ticket.
It took me a minute, but I LOL'd!!
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
I have a copy of the Lincoln Highway Association History of the Lincoln Highway. SF to Truckee.
I will look it up. but I think it was written before 2002.
I really like this photo:
WhiteRabbit
I've just updated my PDF version of the SF trail to include everything I can think of relating to Lafayette Park.
hxxp://www.lemontiger.co.uk/images/misc/thesecret/sftrail.pdf
Now the sunny weather's here, maybe you'd like to check it out Malted?
(Hey, I can dream.
)
erexere
Red circle is a visual clue, blue rectangle is the Giant Pole, yellow rectangle is the "L" - Running north, but first across.
erexere
I'm willing to deviate from my "golf balls in the sky" idea to consider that this image represents a sky full of worlds, which in turn is a rebus for "The Underworld". I'm using that idea to bolster the idea that there is something to do with Rodin's Gates of Hell art piece.
maltedfalcon
Might be,
but once we use the image to confirm the city and the site confirmers
we basically dont need it anymore and use the verse.
Since none of the others make such a deep connection within the image I feel safe
knowing its Lincoln Park in SF.
erexere
maybe it only serves as a reference to the word Legion, which basically means "many".
erexere
catherwood wrote::
Of course, it's your choice, since we still are not sure which verse you're using for your clues.
I myself have already experienced a real-world mini-treasure hunt, digging up a shard in The Journey hunt for The Stone.
hxxp://www.thestone.com/
"buried clue"
On my little adventure, i made the mistake of rushing out the door without all my print-outs. I assumed I could go from memory, but when I got there all the trees looked alike. I *thought* i had the right bend in the path -- and indeed later i found out that i was right -- but could not determine where the X was to dig. Two hours later, another player came along and HE had printouts! We had never met before, not even online, but we became a team -- I did have a shovel which he did not think to bring.
I do think there was an extra benefit to having someone with me to share the thrill. If you don't want help solving this one -- and i *totally* understand how that feels -- at least bring along a family member or friend. And beverages, bring beverages.
And a camera. And print-outs of *everything* and/or the book itself. And a way to clean-up afterwards.
Have fun, make an adventure of it rather than a narrow task, and GOOD LUCK!
That's a great story about teaming up. This hunt in particular is extremely difficult as a solo effort. Everyone should be as lucky to have additional help. An extra pair of eyes especially.
erexere
Anyone think this looks like a fortune teller? A woman with mystical symbols, a table with a circular object in the center...all that's missing is a fortune cookie...
erexere
Not a complete or strong image but turned sideways the roman numerals I, II or III on the robe look like sections of the Golden Gate Bridge.
rookhunter
erexere wrote::
Red circle is a visual clue, blue rectangle is the Giant Pole, yellow rectangle is the "L" - Running north, but first across.
Does that image look more like a stone window or door or is it just me? It looks like stone all around on the edges.
erexere
Definitely stone all around and moreso a window to a prison in a mountainside.
One doesnt simply walk into Mordor...they climb through a window.
erexere
I'm not arguing against the large rectangular shape of Golden Gate Park, but I am very curious about this rectangle compared to this bench which is found located along a the line I've determined by settling on some answers to the riddles presented as being the Betsy Ross flag pole, the Lincoln Highway Marker, and the direction of Alcatraz on a map. Choosing the point of origin to be The Thinker with direction to the parking lot and large circular fountain, then over the balustrade and across the golf course, down the small hillside and to the bench on the other side of the road facing the Golden Gate Bridge in the direction of Alcatraz.
Here's some coordinated colored lines which need little imagination to see how they match the simple shape of the bench. Easily a coincidence in most cases, but this spot works well enough to satisfy most of the verse and image thus making it a strong candidate.
maltedfalcon
Notice the rectangle in the middle of the bench.
it indicates this bench was placed as a memorial or remembrance of someone.
Next time I am in SF I will get you a detailed photo of the plaque.
As always the question will be when was it place.
erexere
That miniplaque dedication might be a big deal. At this point I only have a direction of investigation. I don't know whether digging to the left or right or behind the bench is justified. Could be much ground beyond the bench to consider. Something copper colored and circular beneath the bench...or is it a stain from someones spilled beverage...ice cream...vomit?
Just threw my back out something fierce...might cancel travel plans but I'm thinking I could go south to SF or north to Seattle area inba couple weeks.
maltedfalcon
thats the ground,
its obviously a circular hole in the cement, the kind they would leave to plant a small tree or shrub.
it looks like the bench was placed later above where the shrub used to be.
wk
If you insert image 1 into a word processor, crop the bottom half off and transform the top half of the image.
I used the mouse to select the bottom edge and dragged up until I had a very narrow panoramic view of the hills.
Notice that the hills have a blue outline . I now realise why . Some hills now appear in the distance.
Or tilt the book away from you.
Is this the view from Russian Hill Park?
erexere
wk, I bet someone who is on site will be able to confirm this for you. I've never been there, and google streetview is just not perfect when it comes to replicating the real thing. My mind's eye is stretched enough as it is, I think you'd have more luck squeezing blood from a stone than manipulating a hidden image from a pic that way.
I'm not opposed to starting in Russian Hill or near the Dragon Arch, because I think the path takes you all the way up to the Palace of the Legion of Honor. From there it becomes obvious that you take direction from the Thinker to the Betsy Ross to the Lincoln Marker over the ballustrade, across the 15th hole, and over to a bench that sits with a nice view of GG Bridge. I believe that nothing has much changed in that natural setting and when someone who knows this verse and image well gets close to that spot they WILL FIND A CASQUE. I believe it would've been obvious 30 years ago. It might be less so now, but I think still very doable. Come on maltedfalcon, get movin.
erexere
Cask 1 Verse 7
San Francisco
I see how Russian Hill becomes interesting from a visual perspective with the 'hG'. I never found any evidence that supported that location as strongly as that of Lincoln Park. Perhaps the point of Russian Hill is solely to get a good look at Alcatraz and Ghiradelli and then wonder why it fits just that portion of the solution when you're putting it all together up at the Palace of the Legion of Honor and Golf Course.
Some of the main objects of my theory have been subject to removal and relocation. I believe the "giant pole" is literally a giant pole in the parking lot of the Palace of the Legion of Honor, which was there in the early 80's, but removed in the mid to late 90's. I don't know the actual dates.
The Betsy Ross Memorial Flagpole,
A step or stair pertains to climbing a short distance. A stairway: takes you to the second floor of a home.
A giant step pertains to traversing a long distance. A highway: takes you to the next town.
The Lincoln Memorial Highway terminus marker was installed by the boyscouts, it has been relocated to the other side of the parking lot.
Following these two objects in line on a map takes you in Alcatraz' direction. In jewels direction is an object of Twain's attention: his pen. Twain = Samuel Clemens pen name. Alcatraz = PEN. Federal Penitentiary.
If you follow this path in that direction it stops at a bench that faces the Golden Gate Bridge and has these old trees that present this pattern that matches the dragon head and arms of the woman.
Something of a new tactic Ive turned to involves really focusing on what the verse is doing to identify some points as distant clues for the purpose of getting situated and which clues referenced in its final lines strictly guide us to what pinpoints.
If the main part of this verse establishes these three line clues, Flagpole, Lincoln post, and a direction of Alcatraz, the final lines are line "to the place the casque is kept" doesnt look like much help. I think the image must play a stronger role in this case and at this spot where the trees look like arms folded theres a long rectangle shape in the top surface of the bench. I think it identifies with the border outlining her dragon. Im willing to think the golden pearl above it on her neck is the same as digging at the end of the bench, west side.
maltedfalcon
Those are Eucalyptus trees.
They grow extremely fast.
in 1980s the seaward side of the road was being kept clear of trees (except for the torrey pines) check the history images on google earth
and the trees on the leeward side of the road were kept cut low.
So as not to interfere with the view from the palace.
I don't think your trees were there at all during the 1980s
sometime in the 90s they stopped trimming the trees and planted lots more. (erosion control??, more natural?)
basically the only good views now are between the trees...
Just to say again your mark twain - alcatraz link leaves me cold. The "Pen" wasn't created until 20 some years after his death. so the
penitentiary was never an object of his attention.
And you cannot see it from Lincoln Park. However you can see both the Golden Gate and Fort Point, both of which were actual objects of Twain's attention he wrote about them both.
And you can also see (in another direction,) Downtown SF, another object of Twain's Attention. Your theory that we should ignore those right in front of us for an illogical word play doesn't make sense.
Also to this point we have no proof that the Lincoln Highway post was in place during the 1980s
lastly if you drew a line through the Door and the pole, the lincoln highway marker would not be along it .
if you ran the line through the marker it would miss your bench by 30-40 feet.
erexere
Lots of good points, thanks for addressing my theory.
I'm really convinced by the opportunity for some old stable tree growth to match the painting, especially at a 45 degree angle as the parking lot on a standard north-is-up map matches the shape of the woman's head. I agree there's eucalyptus trees in the area, but the particular tree group I'm focused on is Monterey Cypress, slow growing and established in the 1930's tract of planting.
Where did we leave the story about that terminus marker? I thought someone said it was missing at some point, found in a ditch, and is now in some old professor's back yard...it's replacement ended up being placed in it's current position at the edge of the lot as part of the lots reconstruction. We are sorely lacking in details on this area, eh?
I'm sorry for the bad logic, but the Twain's attention = pen, and the idea that we go in that general direction of a PEN (Alcatraz) with approximate precision, along with the idea that the verse may begin with a good view of Alcatraz and the "Gh" of the chocolate factory, seems like it pulls a ton of ideas together.
As for precision on drawing a line from pole and post to Alcatraz or a specific bench, I'm not sure about that either. It looks like a rough approximation at best and I think that's just the point. We get our precision in this case from the image where it presents the rectanglar shape with the pearl at it's end, so I'm willing to bet the casque is buried directly off the long end of a bench. I think the picture I grabbed off streetview is a lucky break.
Just now musing over a mention of Mercury/Hermes in the Odyssey in regard to sweet smelling cypress:
hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=NMz5OB ... CD8Q6AEwCQ
Interesting, the story is about Odysseus being held aggajnst his will on an island for 7 years. I keep wondering if there's room to fit some Greek references in these puzzles.
maltedfalcon
After speaking with the grounds keeper, the original lincoln highway marker was found on the floor under a work bench in the groundskeeper work area in the early 1990s. People(at the time) who had worked their for 20+ years do not remember who put it there, or when, but they also did not remember it being in place and then going missing. The best theory is that it was knocked over by a car in the 60s or early 70's and put in the shed until it could be replaced, then forgotten about.
So the predominant theory by the Lincoln park groundskeepers is it was not in place in the early 1980s.
I in no way believe that Gh has any association with the Ghirardelli's sign. I will admit I originally did, Until I found the original tourist map of Golden Gate Park that was used by JJP to create the illustration. and the Gh lined up with the Great highway and the fonts matched the text on the map.(except it was reversed.). Ghirardelli's is a red herring, admittedly a tasty chocolate red herring, but a red herring nonetheless (yes the first h in highway on the map was lower case
If you draw a straight line through the center of the door, the location of the flagpole, in intersects directly with Fort Point and the southern anchor of the Golden Gate Bridge.
It will also pass right through your bench. So it is a possibility, however, I still haven't seen proof the benches were there in 1981. Whats missing is the exact clue that takes us to the bench. Giant Step does not work, you cant make a giant step to get to the bench, you need to climb over a wall walk down a hill and across a street. That in no translation = a giant step, unless you arbitrarily conjecture a giant tall enough to make that one step. In that case you would need a reason to make the giant exactly that tall. using the reason "because thats how far the bench is" doesn't work because you would be starting from the end.
The way this has to work, is solve the clues and arrive at a spot to dig, not pick a spot to dig and backtrack the clues to get there.
In the solved, casques when the spot is found you look at the clues and its obvious.
when I consider the bench I look at the clues and go how the hell did it get here?
erexere
I like you're approach maltedfalcon. It's tough to decide how to take that information from the groundskeepers' memory. As for the giant step to the bench, I only assumed it's a spot you get to that has a safe and accessible boundary before it drops off steeply. The bench idea really grabs me as a "place to sit and think" to go with the "Thinker" idea of being at a stone wall. That it looks out at the Golden Gate Bridge might take shape as a "door" metaphor.
Maybe Fort Point figures in better. Maybe the terminus marker itself doesn't belong in the process, but acknowledgint the highway in some form is what's important and the reason the words "giant step" are used. I'm enthusiastic about the idea that a highway = giant step. I'd like to think the giant pole should work to line up perfectly with something to figure out the dig spot.
Let's rehash this some more. I believe you posted all you're findings on the highway as hG already, is there anything else you have on how the highway map clue fits?
catherwood
Wasn't Golden Gate Park considered the best solution early on? Why was it abandoned in favor of Lincoln Park? Oh, just because digging for it did not turn up the casque. That doesn't mean the solution was wrong, but that the casque has probably been destroyed over time.
In all of the theories, I kept my focus on the key instruction on where to dig: the pole. We had two prime candidate places where we know there used to be a GIANT POLE in or near Golden Gate Park. Not a large pole, not a flagpole, but a pole for giants. I feel like people are looking at Lincoln Park now only because nothing was ever found within GG Park. Sadly, I think this treasure is long gone, and we have passed the correct solution already without confirmation.
Possibility One:
Along the Great Highway at the Cliff House was a totem pole. It was above the beach, which would be a great place to bury a treasure for a short-term hunt, but likely washed away long ago. I direct your attention to this page and the photo of the area beneath the pole, shown as a hill with striations very much like our painting.
hxxp://www.berbec.com/rberbec/images/ph ... index.html
(see the caption "The side of the mountain dug through for the road.")
Possibility Two:
The wooden sculpture "Goddess of the Forest" was a 26-foot tall figure of a woman, but being carved from a single tree trunk had the appearance of a totem pole. It stood in Golden Gate Park until 1986. The major question of where to dig would be in relation to where she might have taken a giant step. However, the park land was dug up for irrigation over the years. We may never know whether the casque was destroyed in the process.
My prediction is that someone will eventually start to dig around Lincoln Park, come up empty, and thus conclude that there MUST be a better solution. The cycle will begin again, and continue in frustration without end. We each need to consider what kind of evidence is sufficient for our own satisfaction, short of finding the casque itself. If the treasure is gone, if no evidence remains, what will you accept as "good enough" to stop looking elsewhere?
WhiteRabbit
Unknown:
In 1881, Adolf Sutro purchased 22 acres (89,000 m2) of undeveloped land at the edge of the city, which included a promontory overlooking the Cliff House and Seal Rocks with breathtaking views of the Pacific Ocean, Mount Tamalpais, and the Golden Gate. Taking advantage of the views, Sutro turned this property into Sutro Heights.
Unknown:
Chief Mathias Joe Capilano of the Squamish Indians of Western Canada, he carve um 58-foot totem pole for George K. Whitney to plant in front of Cliff House. Heap big pole, one of biggest in world, it marks Western end of pioneers’ trek.
Unknown:
Finally, we reached the Great Western Sea. There was no place farther we could go.
Good post catherwood. Have to admit I haven't looked at the Cliff House totem pole theory before, and it's the best giant pole I've seen. I was starting to wonder if the shapes in Image 1 might suggest Seal Rock.
Twain wrote about The Cliff House here...
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Era/18640703.html
"At stone wall's door the air smells sweet"...could that even be the Cliff House restaurant...? I guess Malted has already checked Sutro Heights Park.
That date again.
hxxp://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/th ... house.html
Reminds me of the story in the introduction.
It's one of those places I feel BP might have hinted at, even if he didn't end up there.
From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl
Incidentally I've only just noticed how close the Cathay House restaurant is to Portsmouth Square Plaza. Dunno how long it's been there, though there seems to have been a Cathay House in Chinatown since the '50s.
Education and Justice for all to see
I guess one of the most obvious interpretations is a law school.
This is just off Octavia at 20 Haight St.
maltedfalcon
While the Totem pole at Cliff house had 1 thing going for it, It's a giant pole. From that spot you cannot see sutro tower (high points are three or San Francisco State U or the law school.
The biggest thing against it is of course the entire area was bulldozed and rebuilt as the road was widened and cliff house was remodeled. So if the casque was there, it is not now.
But the biggest thing against it, was no site confirmers in the image. Nothing in the image matches even the rocks do not match,
But if we look to the other found casques for our methodology, Chicago and cleveland, they have similarities we can use as a method.
The iconic image... Chicago is the water tower, Cleveland is the Tall building (I cant recall its name.) From the iconic image there is a single road you can take to the treasure ground with no turns. The treasure ground being the part where the verse takes over.
Then the image helps more by supplying site confirmer images (things you can see from the casque location)
if in image1 the most obvious thing (GGpark) is the iconic image. then the road that takes you from GGpark straight to lincoln park is 34th ave (her fingers point to 3 and 4 ) Then her head matches the shape of the parking lot in lincoln park perfectly. (there is a silhouette of lincoln in the image)
but perhaps it means go from lincoln park to GGpark how do we know that Lincoln park is not the iconic image? because of the site confirmer images, the Barred window matches the palace gate, the statue of el cid, the object under the table matches the seamen's monument
In the middle of this parking lot in 1981 was the tallest flagpole in the us. We have a clear view of Several objects of Twain's Attention
all the lamp posts have 3 points as well as sutro tower is in plain view from this location.
I think I could go back and actually find the casque, but I was told there was lots of dirt added at the location where I was digging, I think the casque is simply deeper than I was able to dig at the time. I plan to go back , but do not have the time currently.
@Erexere, one point against the bench location is from there you can no longer see any of the site confirmers. but from the location just over the railing you can see them all.
BTW I finally noticed your login name is a palindrome...
wk
On Google Earth you can see the flagpole shadow if you switch on historic view and move the slider back to 1938.
erexere
Maltedfalcon. I'm sorry I've been offensive towards you in the past. I'm an abrasive personality. You've done a good job raising questions and concerns while avoiding the blindnesses and pitfalls from deviating from the evidence. I might continue to argue te validity of the evidence...so we will continue to disagree on much...anyways, lets find a casque.
Yeah, "eric's here" in palindrome.
Let me ask you what you think about comparing the "dragons pearl" symbolism to the Greek Aegis as a form of protection? Do you think the words "chaste, perfect as the silver moon" can mean "polished round and reflective"? Does the subject of 'reflection' serve as both a shield from Medusa and that which The Thinker does at the Palace door (archway)? Does the Athena nickname Pallus Athena serve as a tie to "Palace" as homonym similar to how "sweet air" might be "sugar heir"? Lastly, do es a bench to sit upon represent the act of "reflection"?
Egbert
erexere wrote::
Let me ask you what you think about comparing the "dragons pearl" symbolism to the Greek Aegis as a form of protection? Do you think the words "chaste, perfect as the silver moon" can mean "polished round and reflective"? Does the subject of 'reflection' serve as both a shield from Medusa and that which The Thinker does at the Palace door (archway)? Does the Athena nickname Pallus Athena serve as a tie to "Palace" as homonym similar to how "sweet air" might be "sugar heir"? Lastly, do es a bench to sit upon represent the act of "reflection"?
Are we still talking about the same book?
erexere
Egbert wrote::
Are we still talking about the same book? :-/
I'm talking about Clash of the Titans.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Maltedfalcon. I'm sorry I've been offensive towards you in the past. I'm an abrasive personality.
never once have you offended me. Hope I havent offended you.
we can argue over ideas all you want. I never have taken it personally.
your method's aren't mine, of course mine still haven't found a casque either, so whose to say who is closer.
maltedfalcon
Not sure when the Rodin thinker was put in the courtyard, but I'm not sure if it was there in 1981
it might have been in a different location. The whole thing was redone in the 90s lots of renovations and re-arranging.
I can see a mythological /clash of the titans link with the cleveland picture,
this one though not so much.
erexere
malt, I think the issue with whether or not the L marker was in that exact spot is something to consider but it should at least be recognized that it was likely there for the greater portion of a century. The main reason for it having been moved wouldv been when the lot was being redone or had it been vandalised. I think we are just short of real proof but we have good cause to believe it may have been intact at the time of this puzzle's creation. I certainly expect it to have been there based on my recent theory.
The Clash of the Titans film isn't really the reason for considering the Aegis. I believe that comes from reading the Iliad and the Odyssey.
maltedfalcon
All of my research led me to the conclusion it probably was not in place at the time.
I don't think , that it had been there in the past, has any effect on the hunt.
BP would not have included it as a clue if it was not there when he planted the casque.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
The Clash of the Titans film isn't really the reason for considering the Aegis. I believe that comes from reading the Iliad and the Odyssey.
I see nothing in the verse or image that would indicate mixing oriental themes with greek is a valid concept.
erexere
MF, I see that its unnecessary to go into the Greek parallel. I just have a tendency to feed the idea that Preiss did so. The only real evidenfe I can land on is the Gh as a veiled clue about Hg or Mercury. The Athena idea is just a reach. LotJ uses the word chaste, so I thought Athena represents one of the virginal Goddesses. Again, no need for all of this...just my habit.
treetops
Hi everyone. I just discovered The Secret yesterday. Living in San Francisco, I've been fixated on Image 1, and I'm finally caught up with this massive thread.
As could be expected, every idea I had has already been covered here, except for two:
1) I see that the thinking here has moved away from Golden Gate Park, but has anyone looked at the windows of the Sharon Building, located at the east end of the park, in connection with the barred window in Image 1?
hxxp://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/07/56/11/2024037/11/628x471.jpg
2) Again in GGP, and pairing with Verse 7, "object of Twain's attention" makes me think of the boat rental area at Stowe Lake. There's currently a large raft there, where paddle boats are moored. Was this there in the early 80s?
I live very close to the park, so will probably spend more time walking around the east end this weekend.
maltedfalcon
Welcome to the hunt.
Yes the sharon building was examined in detail
also in the light of Stone wall's door.
Actually at the same end of the park in the direction of Kezar stadium
there is a pedestrian underpass (about 50 yards from the sharon building)
that bears a much more accurate likeness to the window in the rock.
Oh yes paddle boats were available in the 80s at stow lake.
Don't forget the air would smell sweet at the conservatory of flowers
Aces High (Highway 1) crosses GGpark (on cross over street) the ladies arms are crossed over...
but before you get there you pass prayerbook cross..
(first across)
You are traveling on JFK blvd and you are almost to the location of the Giant Totem pole.
The south side of the park is bordered by Lincoln blvd. (and his silhouette is right there on the south side of the map..)
treetops
malted: Do you know if the totem pole is still over at City College, with the Pan-American Unity Mural? I read that they moved it there when they took it out of GGP.
cw0909
here is a 1987 map of GGpk interactive TerraServer
hxxp://bit.ly/19m7cbM
momatrance
Also brand new to the game. I will be in SF in January and thinking a step from the totem pole location makes a lot sense, where was it location before it was moved?
wk
from page 28
"Finally, we reached the Great Western Sea.
There was no place farther we could go. Only the
strongest and strangest of the Shining Ones were
still with me at the end of the trail. As I stood looking
out at the blue waves coming in from the place
where the sun was setting, I heard them say goodbye
to me. When I turned to look for them, they too
had vanished, and I was alone at the end of the
world.*
I waited there on the beach, for many days, for an
idea."
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nnsJe
Sunset view from
Sutro
Baths on Google Maps. The bottom of the wall in front of the cave looks a good place.
The rocks to the right of the cave match the image in some photos but have eroded badly in this view.
wk
from page 28
"Finally, we reached the Great Western Sea.
There was no place farther we could go. Only the
strongest and strangest of the Shining Ones were
still with me at the end of the trail. As I stood looking
out at the blue waves coming in from the place
where the sun was setting, I heard them say goodbye
to me. When I turned to look for them, they too
had vanished, and I was alone at the end of the
world.*
I waited there on the beach, for many days, for an
idea."
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nnsJe
Sunset view from Sutro Baths on Google Maps. The bottom of the wall in front of the cave looks a good place.
The rocks to the right of the cave match the image in some photos but have eroded badly in this view.
wk
Unknown:
HT3020'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL OCEAN SERVICE 1978 (JPR)
HT3020'STATION AND REFERENCE MARKS WERE RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION. THE
HT3020'FOLLOWING ADDITIONS SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE 1932 DESCRIPTION BY J.B.JR,
HT3020'THE 1948 RECOVERY BY W.M.G AND THE 1964 RECOVERY BY P.A.S. THE
HT3020'INTERSECTION OF CLEMENT AND 39TH STREET IS NOW BLOCKED BY A FENCE BUT
HT3020'ACCESS MAY BE GAINED TO THE STATION VIA A NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
HT3020'MAINTENANCE DRIVE BEGINNING NEAR THE ENTRANCE TO A VETERANS HOSPITAL
HT3020'IN THE AREA. THE STATION LIES IN THE ROUGH AREA OF A GULF COURSE THAT
HT3020'SURROUNDED BY A FENCE, BUT A HOLE IN THIS FENCE (THROUGH WHICH ACCESS
HT3020'MAY BE GAINED TO THE STATION) IS LOCATED WHERE THE MAINTENANCE ROAD
HT3020'MENTIONED ABOVE MAKES ITS FIRST CURVE TO THE LEFT. A PARK TYPE BENCH
HT3020'LIES 30 FEET EAST OF THE STATION. THE STATION IS SURROUNDED BY LARGE
HT3020'TREES AND ITS USEFULNESS IS LIMITED UNLESS THE AREA IS CLEARED OR AN
HT3020'OBSERVING TOWER IS ERECTED.
HT3020'DESCRIBED BY B.F. HILLARD
HT3020 marker in Lincoln Park, San Francisco
hxxp://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark ... Box=HT3020
...and you think we have problems searching!
treetops
Unknown:
AF8575'DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1998 (JDD)
AF8575'THE STATION IS LOCATED AT LOWER FORT MASON IN THE CITY OF SAN
AF8575'FRANCISCO. FORT MASON IS NOW PART OF THE GOLDEN GATE NATIONAL
AF8575'RECREATION AREA. THE STATION IS LOCATED ON THE TOP OF A CONCRETE
AF8575'LEDGE JUST NORTH OF THE SOUTH WALL OF THE BUILDING AT PIER ONE AT FORT
AF8575'MASON AND IS ACCESSIBLE FROM THE ROOF OF THE BUILDING. TO REACH THE
AF8575'STATION FROM HIGHWAY 101 IN NORTH SAN FRANCISCO AT THE INTERSECTION OF
AF8575'VAN NESS AVENUE AND LOMBARD STREET GO NORTH ON VAN NESS AVENUE FOR 0.2
AF8575'MI (0.3 KM) TO THE INTERSECTION OF BAY STREET. TURN LEFT AND GO WEST
AF8575'ON BAY STREET FOR 0.4 MI (0.6 KM) TO THE INTERSECTION OF LAGUNA
AF8575'STREET. TURN RIGHT AND GO NORTH ON LAGUNA STREET FOR ABOUT 0.15 MI
AF8575'(0.24 KM) TO THE ENTRANCE TO FORT MASON CENTER AND MARINA BOULEVARD ON
AF8575'THE LEFT. UPON ENTERING FORT MASON CENTER GO EAST AND THEN NORTH FOR
AF8575'ABOUT 0.15 MI (0.24 KM) TO THE WESTERNMOST OF THREE LARGE PIER
AF8575'BUILDINGS. ENTER THE BUILDING AT THE SOUTHWEST ENTRANCE AND GO
AF8575'UPSTAIRS TO THE SECOND LEVEL. THEN CONTINUE UP A SET OF STAIRS NEAR
AF8575'THE EASTERN SIDE OF THE BUILDING TO A POINT WHERE ACCESS TO THE ROOF
AF8575'IS HAD THROUGH A HATCH. GO THROUGH THE HATCH AND GO TO THE SOUTHERN
AF8575'MOST POINT ON THE ROOF AT THE APEX OF THE ROOF AND THE STATION. THE
AF8575'STATION IS AN UNSTAMPED ONE-INCH BRASS DISK SET FLUSH IN THE TOP OF A
AF8575'0.85 FT (0.26 M) BY 0.75 FT (0.23 M) CONCRETE LEDGE ABOUT 3.3 FT (1.0
AF8575'M) BELOW THE HIGHEST POINT OF THE SOUTH WALL OF THE BUILDING. THE GPS
AF8575'ANTENNA WAS MOUNTED ON THE TOP OF A SPECIALLY DESIGNED AND FABRICATED
AF8575'ANTENNA MOUNT.
wk, I've been thinking about these survey markers lately too, wondering if there's a connection to any of the locations. What started me is that a triangle with a dot in its center, seen in Image 1, is used on survey markers:
hxxp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/da/MY4112-Station.jpg/220px-MY4112-Station.jpg
It's a basic enough symbol that it could be coincidental, but pre-internet, wouldn't a survey marker be a clear way to get someone to a precise location, assuming readers could be reasonably expected to look up the information.
Oh, and here's an awesome one for you:
hxxp://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=AF8575
wk
Nice one! I am still having fun identifying and reading some of the others. There is one in Charleston which we have already considered and I just looked at another in New Orleans which seems to be very close to Café de Monde. "middle of 21" line in a verse.
maltedfalcon
treetops wrote::
malted: Do you know if the totem pole is still over at City College, with the Pan-American Unity Mural? I read that they moved it there when they took it out of GGP.
yes I have been to visit it.
its actually very sad whats left of such a huge sculpture
maltedfalcon
momatrance wrote::
Also brand new to the game. I will be in SF in January and thinking a step from the totem pole location makes a lot sense, where was it location before it was moved?
yes the pedestal it stood on is still in place
it was in Lindley meadow. you cant miss it.
however you realize the entire circumference of the pedestal out to 5 feet and 4 feet deep has ben searched by digging over a 2 year period.
So the one place I am sure the casque is not is, next to the pedestal of the Goddess of the Forest.
but if you want to dig there, I can put you in touch with the groundskeepers, they were quite amused by the hunt and very helpful
erexere
found this picture in an old discarded photo album from a tour of SF in the 1970's...
does anyone recognize where this constructed setting might have been or is it still existant?
fox
The rocky formations on that backdrop sure look familiar.
erexere
I don't see exact matches, but it sure has the right feel. Stone wall's door too.
erexere
I
don't see exact matches, but it sure has the right feel. Stone wall's door too.
Hirudiniforme
do you have a link to the original location?
erexere
no, I found the photo in an old photo album that someone tossed in a garbage. All the photos look like they are in SF. Transamerica building, Sutter st., Dragon arch, etc. All from the 70's. I think it's definately pre-78.
erexere
no,
I
found the photo in an old photo album that someone tossed in a garbage. All the photos look like they are in SF. Transamerica building, Sutter st., Dragon arch, etc. All from the 70's.
I
think it's definately pre-78.
Jambone
Pretty nice match. Looks kinda like a movie set.
erexere
Yeah, a stage for gold rush reenactments.
forest_blight
Can you scan the back for us?
erexere
forest_blight wrote::
Can you scan the back for us?
The back is completely blank. Not even a faint marking
of
an old date. Here are some adjacent photos.
erexere
forest_blight wrote::
Can you scan the back for us?
The back is completely blank. Not even a faint marking of an old date. Here are some adjacent photos.
Hirudiniforme
It seems a bit out of the way, but that might be Sagebrush Theater at Frontier Village in San Jose.
The mountain scene seems to be the backside of the fake wall in the second picture.
Hirudiniforme
It seems a bit out
of
the way, but that might be Sagebrush Theater at Frontier Village in San Jose.
The mountain scene seems to be the backside
of
the fake wall in the second picture.
meatypuffs
Hello everyone, just found this board (and was introduced to The Secret) yesterday.
I
've read through all the posts here since then and must say
I
am amazed at the research and creativity
of
all
of
you.
I
was recently in San Francisco for a few days in May and am so giddy all
of
you are discussing several places
I
got to visit on my quick trip.
I
'm trying to digest everything
I
have read and some research
I
have done myself, but
I
thought
I
'd throw out a couple observations that hopefully add a new spin or fresh take on things.
1. White Rabbit's interpretation
of
Verse 6 originally had me convinced it was in Lafayette Park. This took me on an adventure to research Samuel Holladay and his mansion on the summit
of
Lafayette Park (white house close at hand, if that does not refer to the apartment complex on site). Here's some information and some photos about Holladay and that area:
hxxp://www.sparkletack.com/2007/06/22/6 ... ette-park/
. Granted, the mansion was no longer in existence when BP hid the casques, but
I
found it to be interesting and may be
of
some indication
of
the burial location in that area.
2. Moreoever, if it is in Lafayette Park, perhaps the "between two arms extended" refers to each
of
the tennis nets
of
the adjacent tennis courts, each net appearing to be an arm extended. Perhaps the location is between the two tennis courts, level with the nets, and next to the fence (the bar that binds). This is a stretch, but wanted to throw it out there.
3.
I
was absolutely fascinated by the early discussion around Coit Tower. While the clothing
of
the lady in Image 1 appears to contain GGPark, could the blue portion itself be Coit Tower? Between the "G" and "h" on her shirt is a narrower portion
of
blue "fabric" that widens and continues downward for the rest
of
her outfit. Coit Tower is narrow at the top in a similar manner. Discussion regarding Coit Tower and Telegraph Hill died down long ago, but it seemed like there were many things in both Image 1 and Verse 7 that indicated it may be a viable site (or play a part in leading to the correct site). Since we have yet to find a definite image
of
a building in Image 1 linking it to San Francisco, perhaps Coit Tower is the image in blue.
4. Is the table's pedestal simply a candlestick in reference to Candlestick Park as a means
of
linking Image 1 to San Francisco? This seems oversimplified, sure, but
I
think we may put too much weight on each detail
of
the picture sometimes.
I
don't doubt
I
haven't added much to the conversation at this point, but
I
know many
of
you have been laboring over these items for a decade (or more!), and thought
I
would share these observations from someone new to the game. Keep up the good work everyone!
I
look forward to following along and contributing where
I
can.
meatypuffs
Hello everyone, just found this board (and was introduced to The Secret) yesterday. I've read through all the posts here since then and must say I am amazed at the research and creativity of all of you.
I was recently in San Francisco for a few days in May and am so giddy all of you are discussing several places I got to visit on my quick trip.
I'm trying to digest everything I have read and some research I have done myself, but I thought I'd throw out a couple observations that hopefully add a new spin or fresh take on things.
1. White Rabbit's interpretation of Verse 6 originally had me convinced it was in Lafayette Park. This took me on an adventure to research Samuel Holladay and his mansion on the summit of Lafayette Park (white house close at hand, if that does not refer to the apartment complex on site). Here's some information and some photos about Holladay and that area:
hxxp://www.sparkletack.com/2007/06/22/6 ... ette-park/
. Granted, the mansion was no longer in existence when BP hid the casques, but I found it to be interesting and may be of some indication of the burial location in that area.
2. Moreoever, if it is in Lafayette Park, perhaps the "between two arms extended" refers to each of the tennis nets of the adjacent tennis courts, each net appearing to be an arm extended. Perhaps the location is between the two tennis courts, level with the nets, and next to the fence (the bar that binds). This is a stretch, but wanted to throw it out there.
3. I was absolutely fascinated by the early discussion around Coit Tower. While the clothing of the lady in Image 1 appears to contain GGPark, could the blue portion itself be Coit Tower? Between the "G" and "h" on her shirt is a narrower portion of blue "fabric" that widens and continues downward for the rest of her outfit. Coit Tower is narrow at the top in a similar manner. Discussion regarding Coit Tower and Telegraph Hill died down long ago, but it seemed like there were many things in both Image 1 and Verse 7 that indicated it may be a viable site (or play a part in leading to the correct site). Since we have yet to find a definite image of a building in Image 1 linking it to San Francisco, perhaps Coit Tower is the image in blue.
4. Is the table's pedestal simply a candlestick in reference to Candlestick Park as a means of linking Image 1 to San Francisco? This seems oversimplified, sure, but I think we may put too much weight on each detail of the picture sometimes.
I don't doubt I haven't added much to the conversation at this point, but I know many of you have been laboring over these items for a decade (or more!), and thought I would share these observations from someone new to the game. Keep up the good work everyone! I look forward to following along and contributing where I can.
meatypuffs
Or, rather, concerning the blue portion of the woman's clothing as I mentioned in my previous post, it appears it could be a silhouette of the former tallest building west of the Mississippi, the Bank of America building (now called the 555 California Street building). This link has a view of the building from Coit Tower (oddly enough, considering the other discussion in my post) that seems to match the silhouette quite well:
hxxp://www.aviewoncities.com/sf/bankofa ... ilding.htm
.
meatypuffs
Or, rather, concerning the blue portion
of
the woman's clothing as
I
mentioned in my previous post, it appears it could be a silhouette
of
the former tallest building west
of
the Mississippi, the Bank
of
America building (now called the 555 California Street building). This link has a view
of
the building from Coit Tower (oddly enough, considering the other discussion in my post) that seems to match the silhouette quite well:
hxxp://www.aviewoncities.com/sf/bankofa ... ilding.htm
.
wk
rocks near cave
It has been recently suggested that the image must contain something to identify the correct location. Down the steps to Sutro baths is a cave and to the right of the cave is this rock formation. This is best viewed on Google Earth where there is a 360 degree panoramic photo called Sutro Final Copy. In front of this rock structure is a derelict wall which looks the ideal place.
Here is my attempt to show the rock structure outline:
wk
rocks near cave
It has been recently suggested that the image must contain something to identify the correct location. Down the steps to Sutro baths is a cave and to the right
of
the cave is this rock formation. This is best viewed on Google Earth where there is a 360 degree panoramic photo called Sutro Final Copy. In front
of
this rock structure is a derelict wall which looks the ideal place.
Here is my attempt to show the rock structure outline:
maltedfalcon
Do you think erosion is slow enough that the cliffs have not changed much since 1982?
obviously there is some erosion, but the cliffs have been there forever. maybe they dont change that much
How much do you think they have changed? I wonder if you could find a similar image to check.
maltedfalcon
Do you think erosion is slow enough that the cliffs have not changed much since 1982?
obviously there is some erosion, but the cliffs have been there forever. maybe they dont change that much
How much do you think they have changed?
I
wonder if you could find a similar image to check.
wk
I think the angle of the sun helps. I already posted this photo:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nnsJe
If you look down notice the angle of the walls meet here too. But there does seem to be a lot of extra lose rocks - some too large to move
wk
I
think the angle
of
the sun helps.
I
already posted this photo:
hxxp://goo.gl/maps/nnsJe
If you look down notice the angle
of
the walls meet here too. But there does seem to be a lot
of
extra lose rocks - some too large to move
treetops
I can tell you that the ground in that immediate area is extremely dry, hard dirt that would crumble to dust if you tried to dig into it. Farther up the hill you're looking at dunes. It's only up in the woods, towards Sutro Heights, that you could reasonably bury something.
In case you're wondering, inside that tunnel, waves come in from the ocean and regularly flood the ground. The other end of the tunnel deposits you on a very steep and rocky cliff face, where it would be extremely irresponsible to send someone hunting for treasure. Think helicopter rescue on the 11 o'clock news.
That said, I would really love for Sutro Baths to be the location of the casque; my wife and I were married on the flat area up above your rock formations just two years ago!
treetops
I
can tell you that the ground in that immediate area is extremely dry, hard dirt that would crumble to dust if you tried to dig into it. Farther up the hill you're looking at dunes. It's only up in the woods, towards Sutro Heights, that you could reasonably bury something.
In case you're wondering, inside that tunnel, waves come in from the ocean and regularly flood the ground. The other end
of
the tunnel deposits you on a very steep and rocky cliff face, where it would be extremely irresponsible to send someone hunting for treasure. Think helicopter rescue on the 11 o'clock news.
That said,
I
would really love for Sutro Baths to be the location
of
the casque; my wife and
I
were married on the flat area up above your rock formations just two years ago!
mcayne
Ok, I'll admit I became obsessed with this and read every single page in one day. I just have a few thoughts.
1. I think the key is to find that window, an exact match however, and one that may no longer exist (I don't remember seeing the pedestrian door). When you reverse engineer the grant park find, the fence post is blatantly obvious and a nearly exact match. Cleveland is a little more subtle but the architecture where the casque was buried was fairly exact.
2. I think there's no reason to not say this isn't San Francisco. The curve below her hands is pretty close to being California, and I agree that her dress resembles coit tower.
3. I think the "lamp post" may be a pedestal. If you look at the negative space around it, and imagine them to be corners, it looks a lot like the trim to a statue's base (If it were square). My other theory is more literal and that its a specific drinking fountain, due to the little bell thing on top of the clock.
4. I think the location has something to do with the painting's asian imagery. There's no reason to suspect that the greek influence in the cleveland one and the fact that it was found in a greek garden is just a coincidence. (What Ireland has to do with gray park....I don't know.)
5. Has anyone started at city hall and tried to make the verses fit? Her head is a perfect dome shape and she's quite highlighted. It's also not too far from the Mark Twain hotel, if we interpret that verse literally. (Also literal would be if there was a statue of Mark Twain somewhere looking in some direction)
That's all I got. Happy hunting!
6. Maybe the "X" means its the tenth verse.
wk
image1 moons
Why are there 11 moons in the sky in this image?
I noticed that they are all different sizes. This allows them to be put in order say smallest 1 to largest 11:
I really want there to be 12. Then I realised that there is a size missing. It is size 9. How about the moon in image 11? Well, it seems to be a size 12 BUT the halo around the star on image 11 seems to be the correct size 9.
left to right:................. 1 8 11 5 4 12 7 6 3 10 2
clockwise left to right:.... 8 1 11 5 4 12 7 3 10 6 2
Now visualise the moons in say an orbit and maybe seen
from the rock window:....... 11 8 1 4 5 12 7 3 2 10 6
Now here are the verses in the order of the month
month/zodiac order.......... J F M A M J J A S O N D
zodiac verse................... 11 08 04 05 12 07 01 03 09 02 10 06
The error is number 1. It needs to be between moon 7 and 3, and 9 was missing but this does start to look like the confirmation of the pairing.
What if the star on image 11 is the correct size 1 to use? Then that would correct the discrepancy. It is also amazingly in the correct position between moon 7 and 3. The moon on image 11, and on the front cover, of the book is telling you where the sequence starts.
Verse 11 Roanoke Island ........image 3
Verse 8 Milwaukee .............image 10
Verse 4 Cleveland .............Image 4
Verse 5 Charleston ............Image 2
Verse 12 Chicago ...............Image 5
Verse 7 San Francisco .........image 1
Verse 1 Houston ...............image 8
Verse 3 Boston ................image 11
Verse 9 St Augustine ..........image 6
Verse 2 Montreal ..............image 9
Verse 10 New York ..............image 12
Verse 6 New Orleans ...........Image 7
which matches the order of the locations around the
zodiac image................03 10 04 02 05 01 08 11 06 09 12 07
(11160)
maltedfalcon
wk wrote::
Now visualise the moons in say an orbit and maybe seen
from the rock window:....... 11 8 1 4 5 12 7 3 2 10 6
This is really neat, but I am not quite clear what you mean by:...
erexere
wk, for a moment I thought you had something, but then it gets reachy. I do like the idea of the first image having some kind of greater purpose. I think the LotJ does that though. It helps correlate a little something for each jewel and fair folk type.
As for the many moons, i still have no idea why there are 11. One idea I belive has merit, fb mentioned this, the circle square square triangle near her shoulder and neckline could be symbolic for numbers: 1-4-4-3 according to number of sides. This could be two groups 14 and 43 and possibly reversed, so 41 and 34 maybe. When I read about Frank Morris' escape from Alcatraz I almost got excited about his prisoner number which was 1441, because I thought maybe 1443 mightve been the prisoner number of one of the other two escapees, but no, they werent.
Its all puzzling. Its so hard to get comfortable with any interpretation. Im sure if we were provided with the correct solution we'd hate it all the same.
Egbert
wk, this is quite amazing if it is correct. However, you lost me near the end. If you don't mind, can you explain it a little clearer and slower?
How do you get from the order of the verses to match them with the images, at the end?
Also, what happens to the moon which was #1 originally (far left) ?
Where does the number 09 come in, between 3 and 2? How do you get it there?
The "orbit order" is not really from closest to farthest from the door, is it? It's more like a "connect-the-dots" from left to right, isn't it?
Any way to write numbers on the moons and explain this better? I'm really trying to understand it. Thanks.
Nice job!
Hirudiniforme
oh shit, i get it... I think...
The last step is an alignment of the month in one row, and then the size (11 08 04 05 12 07 01 03 09 02 10 06) in the row beneath.
Then, look at the month associated with each image. Look at the chart and the verse number that corresponds is the number below.
For instance:
Cleveland is March - move three letters over in row one, and then take the 04 in the row beneath.
Chicago is May - move 5 letters over in row one, and then take the 12 in the row beneath.
St. Augustine is September - move 9 letters over in row one, and then take the 09 in the row beneath.
etc.
I am trying to number the moons right now and see them in orbit... which is the part I am not getting.
Hirudiniforme
Yeah... the more I look at the moons, I don't really see how the ones on Image 1 are all different sizes. They look to all be 1 of 3 sizes to me...
Egbert
I think the moon sizes are subtly different. The only way to know for sure is to make a copy of the picture, and cut out the moons.
erexere
Governor Arnold suggests maybe the many moons are intended to draw attention to an effect such as standing in a hall of mirrors,
Or perhaps it's an allusion to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress with catapults firing bombs from the sky or bringing attention to a "Warden" on an Earth with 11 billion people.
WhiteRabbit
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Yeah... the more I look at the moons, I don't really see how the ones on Image 1 are all different sizes. They look to all be 1 of 3 sizes to me...
That was my first impression looking at the scans. It's a very interesting and original idea though, and there may be another angle on it. Eg, you could see the barred window as a grid hint and take an X and Y ordering rather than size and orbit...or use something like Litany order instead of Zodiac order as an extra step. In the first instance though, you'd need the "missing moon", and the likeliest candidates would seem to be Image 11, or the pearl "perfect as the silver moon".
(The original theory may be right for all I know, but I'd need a bit more convincing. Egbert's lunar size chart would be a good start...)
cw0909
wk i like the moon idea, not sure i totaly understand it
why 2 left to rights, as L to R is clockwise
you say smallest to large,
left to right:................. 1 8 11 5 4 12 7 6 3 10 2
clockwise left to right:.... 8 1 11 5 4 12 7 3 10 6 2
i like the size chart to, it would be.....
concentric circles have different radii and same centre, they are at the same
distance apart all the way around and they fit inside each other.
like this
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-soF5nHoFXsA/U ... cles_v.jpg
erexere
Perhaps consider the pearl as the 12th moon?
WhiteRabbit
...or pearl as the centre of rotation...
Distance from the centre of rotation could be another way to form a sequence. A distance in time and space.
WhiteRabbit
Just tried looking at the dragon's eye as a centre, with the pearl as the 12th moon and distance to give a sequence.
Guess that's ruled out anyway. Some of the distances look very similar and one of the lines passes pretty much through the middle of the pearl to the middle of a moon. Next...
wk
Nobody spotted the deliberate mistake about the image 11 moon.
It is not on the front cover.
I tried to show my reasoning and workings but maybe that was too confusing. Actually, I have all the objects plotted on a circle divided into 12 like a clock or zodiac so I may have confused you with the zodiac reference.
Quite simply, if you have a table or spreadsheet with the months 1 to 12 across the top as columns
then a row containing image numbers, and another row containing the verse numbers
then the moon order that I found confirms the order of the verses and the images.
So the month number is the key and we have now found a use for that sequence. I have not yet tried my other sequences from the LOTJ yet. I think they may figure in some larger logic puzzle.
Most of us were undecided about some of the verse pairing and this "moon order" now allows us to fill in the correct verse number.
This post should really be on its own topic or the methodology thread since people have been trying for over 30 years to find a relationship between the images and verses. This is one of them.
(11256)
WhiteRabbit
Here are six moons cut from the standard high-res scans.
I guess putting the 11 in size order might be just about possible, though I wouldn't say it was obvious. The order round the arc depends where you measure from, and the window seems a bit arbitrary. Then there's the "missing moon", and deciding where it fits...
I like the idea, I'm just not quite convinced yet.
cw0909
Unknown:
Re: image 1
Postby wk » July 24, 2014, 08:58:35 AM
Nobody spotted the deliberate mistake about the image 11 moon.
It is not on the front cover.
I tried to show my reasoning and workings but maybe that was too confusing. Actually, I have all the objects plotted on a circle divided into 12 like a clock or zodiac so I may have confused you with the zodiac reference.
wk i dont understand why it was a "deliberate mistake", not trying to cut your work down but......
the best way to confirm your work is to give all your work in its entirety, imgs, graphs, theory, ect.
and let us plow through it, i think your on to something, its just very hard for me, to visualize and
interpret, what youve said so far. i am trying, if i can get what i think is close to your theory, ill
put it up, im sure others are too, so you may be right, the moons prob needs its own thread
maltedfalcon
wk wrote::
then the moon order that I found confirms the order of the verses and the images.
?
Still not clear on how you got the moon order, if you cant actually put the moons in a particular order of size.
Then you how do you jump to an order that works?
Merlot Brougham
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...or pearl as the centre of rotation...
Distance from the centre of rotation could be another way to form a sequence. A distance in time and space.
From three who lived there?
On a serious note, I can't say I 100% understand the methodology as described, but the verse pairings were a partial inspiration for me to post what I did in the V2 thread.
treetops
wk wrote::
Nobody spotted the deliberate mistake about the image 11 moon.
It is not on the front cover.
I tried to show my reasoning and workings but maybe that was too confusing. Actually, I have all the objects plotted on a circle divided into 12 like a clock or zodiac so I may have confused you with the zodiac reference.
Quite simply, if you have a table or spreadsheet with the months 1 to 12 across the top as columns
then a row containing image numbers, and another row containing the verse numbers
then the moon order that I found confirms the order of the verses and the images.
So the month number is the key and we have now found a use for that sequence. I have not yet tried my other sequences from the LOTJ yet. I think they may figure in some larger logic puzzle.
Most of us were undecided about some of the verse pairing and this "moon order" now allows us to fill in the correct verse number.
This post should really be on its own topic or the methodology thread since people have been trying for over 30 years to find a relationship between the images and verses. This is one of them.
(11256)
I've always assumed that the moon and star in image 11 were removed from the front cover to make room for the book's title. I don't think there's any need to draw further conclusions.
Yes, finding a master system for pairing images and verses would be huge. Many proposed methods for doing this involve just what you're doing here: use some element of the book to derive an out-of-order sequence of the numbers 1 through 12, line these up with images or verses, and then order the sequence. This assumes that either the images or verses are already in their proper order, so that rearranging the other set will put things right. I don't even want to contemplate the gymnastics required if both images and verses require independent reordering.
As far as candidates for a master reordering system go, I'd say the months indicated by the various birthstones are the most accessible, but that doesn't give a result consistent with the two solved pairings we already have. Same goes for an ordering using the Litany of Jewels or the map. So now we have to look further afield for a sequence, if there is one.
At this point, we're faced with many possible ordering systems that get into esoteric territory. In order to judge any one of these, I'd ask the following questions:
1) Does it result in the two solved image/verse pairings?
2) Can the method be figured out without prior knowledge of the two known pairings? In other words, does the method need to be reverse-engineered or can it be reached using clear patterns or clues in the book?
3) What makes this ordering method more valid than a different, equally esoteric, method? Ideally, applying the correct ordering method would result in a confirming text or image, so that in addition to a list of numbers, you get an "aha!" moment. Barring this, is there a recurrence of the same sequence elsewhere in the book?
4) Can the method be applied without using computer tools such as photo editing software?
The idea of the moons unlocking the image/verse pairings is compelling because they appear in the first image, have not yet been otherwise explained, and do vary in size. However, as others have noted, the precise size distinctions are difficult to judge. More troubling to me is the way you have reverse-engineered elements of your method to satisfy question 1 above. I don't see anything elsewhere in the book that tells me to use your ordering of the moons instead of a different one (right to left,
counter
-
clockwise
, top to bottom, etc.) Only by partially knowing the result you want can you judge the way you've ordered the moons to be the correct one. And at the end, we're left with a series of 12 numbers no different than any other; there is no confirmer other than the two known pairings, and some others about which we have varying degrees of confidence.
Take the method of drawing lines in Masquerade as a counterexample: if you start drawing lines from fingers through eyes in the proper order, you don't just get an arbitrary sequence of letters, you get a meaningful series of words. Without a clear instruction somewhere in The Secret to order the moons your way, how could a puzzler without benefit of the two solved casques know that the resulting pairings are more valid than image 1/verse 1, image 2/verse 2, etc.?
treetops
wk wrote::
Nobody spotted the deliberate mistake about the image 11 moon.
It is not on the front cover.
I tried to show my reasoning and workings but maybe that was too confusing. Actually, I have all the objects plotted on a circle divided into 12 like a clock or zodiac so I may have confused you with the zodiac reference.
Quite simply, if you have a table or spreadsheet with the months 1 to 12 across the top as columns
then a row containing image numbers, and another row containing the verse numbers
then the moon order that I found confirms the order of the verses and the images.
So the month number is the key and we have now found a use for that sequence. I have not yet tried my other sequences from the LOTJ yet. I think they may figure in some larger logic puzzle.
Most of us were undecided about some of the verse pairing and this "moon order" now allows us to fill in the correct verse number.
This post should really be on its own topic or the methodology thread since people have been trying for over 30 years to find a relationship between the images and verses. This is one of them.
(11256)
I've always assumed that the moon and star in image 11 were removed from the front cover to make room for the book's title. I don't think there's any need to draw further conclusions.
Yes, finding a master system for pairing images and verses would be huge. Many proposed methods for doing this involve just what you're doing here: use some element of the book to derive an out-of-order sequence of the numbers 1 through 12, line these up with images or verses, and then order the sequence. This assumes that either the images or verses are already in their proper order, so that rearranging the other set will put things right. I don't even want to contemplate the gymnastics required if both images and verses require independent reordering.
As far as candidates for a master reordering system go, I'd say the months indicated by the various birthstones are the most accessible, but that doesn't give a result consistent with the two solved pairings we already have. Same goes for an ordering using the Litany of Jewels or the map. So now we have to look further afield for a sequence, if there is one.
At this point, we're faced with many possible ordering systems that get into esoteric territory. In order to judge any one of these, I'd ask the following questions:
1) Does it result in the two solved image/verse pairings?
2) Can the method be figured out without prior knowledge of the two known pairings? In other words, does the method need to be reverse-engineered or can it be reached using clear patterns or clues in the book?
3) What makes this ordering method more valid than a different, equally esoteric, method? Ideally, applying the correct ordering method would result in a confirming text or image, so that in addition to a list of numbers, you get an "aha!" moment. Barring this, is there a recurrence of the same sequence elsewhere in the book?
4) Can the method be applied without using computer tools such as photo editing software?
The idea of the moons unlocking the image/verse pairings is compelling because they appear in the first image, have not yet been otherwise explained, and do vary in size. However, as others have noted, the precise size distinctions are difficult to judge. More troubling to me is the way you have reverse-engineered elements of your method to satisfy question 1 above. I don't see anything elsewhere in the book that tells me to use your ordering of the moons instead of a different one (right to left, counter-clockwise, top to bottom, etc.) Only by partially knowing the result you want can you judge the way you've ordered the moons to be the correct one. And at the end, we're left with a series of 12 numbers no different than any other; there is no confirmer other than the two known pairings, and some others about which we have varying degrees of confidence.
Take the method of drawing lines in Masquerade as a counterexample: if you start drawing lines from fingers through eyes in the proper order, you don't just get an arbitrary sequence of letters, you get a meaningful series of words. Without a clear instruction somewhere in The Secret to order the moons your way, how could a puzzler without benefit of the two solved casques know that the resulting pairings are more valid than image 1/verse 1, image 2/verse 2, etc.?
wk
Moon order
The verse order is 11 8 4 5 12 7 1 3 9 2 10 6
The moon sizes in orbit in image 1 are 11 8 4 5 12 7 - 3 - 2 10 6
To complete the puzzle sequence, moon size 1 and 9 need to be in the correct place. This is achieved by using the moon and star with halo on image 11. The star itself is size 1 and is in the correct place. The markings around the stone show how much to turn
clockwise
to get the size 9 halo in place.
IT EVEN HAS A NINE CARVED ONTO THE STONE.
(11294)
wk
Moon order
The verse order is 11 8 4 5 12 7 1 3 9 2 10 6
The moon sizes in orbit in image 1 are 11 8 4 5 12 7 - 3 - 2 10 6
To complete the puzzle sequence, moon size 1 and 9 need to be in the correct place. This is achieved by using the moon and star with halo on image 11. The star itself is size 1 and is in the correct place. The markings around the stone show how much to turn clockwise to get the size 9 halo in place.
IT EVEN HAS A NINE CARVED ONTO THE STONE.
(11294)
wk
Treetops,
Good post. Yes, I am aware that I am working in reverse and that is why I see it as a confirmation.
Egbert
I really want this to work, wk!
So, wk, it appears that you are ignoring the moon all the way to the left of image 1, correct?
If so, what tells us to do that?
If we are only using 10 moons from image 1, then are we using both the moon and the star from image 11 to get Moons 1 and 9?
Or, is Moon 1 the star and Moon 9 simply the number 9 in Image 11?
One additional question: The beginning of your sequence is 11-8-4. That means you are taking the big moon on the left as Moon 11, then moving to the LEFT to get Moon 8, then moving back to the RIGHT through Moon 11 to hit Moon 4. Is that right? If so, what does "orbit" have to do with that?
Thanks!
cw0909
wk, why did you use the moon, in img 11, and not imgs- 3,or 7,
as the missing # size 9, in the sequence small to large 1 thru 12 moons
maybe you stated why and i missed it
erexere
Treetops, excellent post. Keep in mind the aquamarine shouldve ben Clevelands reward. Something whiterabbit mentioned once that really interested me was a marriage chart that attempts to connect two different fair folk cultures by way of hands on a clock style arrangement. For example, Greece at number 4 and Germany at number 10. I dont know that it should mean a string correlation, because I dont see anything German in theV4 or P4, but the focus on a birch does come i to play in the Milwaukee setting. Hmm. Try Cathay at 6 o'clock and Russia at 12 o'clock...or Old Italy at 5 o'clock and Ireland at 11 o'clock. Each marriage offers a little cross cultural referencing. Certainly we think of V3/P11 as involved with a Greek component but there is also something to consider with the proximity of Rome to the setting of the Peloponnesian War...
I havent toyed with this in awhile, and I forget if it made any difference to fixing the pairings.
wk
Egbert wrote::
I really want this to work, wk!
So, wk, it appears that you are ignoring the moon all the way to the left of image 1, correct?
If so, what tells us to do that?
Unknown:
If we are only using 10 moons from image 1, then are we using both the moon and the star from image 11 to get Moons 1 and 9?
Or, is Moon 1 the star and Moon 9 simply the number 9 in Image 11?
Unknown:
One additional question: The beginning of your sequence is 11-8-4. That means you are taking the big moon on the left as Moon 11, then moving to the LEFT to get Moon 8, then moving back to the RIGHT through Moon 11 to hit Moon 4. Is that right? If so, what does "orbit" have to do with that?
not solved that yet
The star is size 1 but the halo around the star is size 9. I am currently trying to illustrate the moving of the halo atm.
The moons have different size orbits so moon 4 is nearer the centre. also the size of a moon is no indication of its distance from you.
wk
cw0909 wrote::
wk, why did you use the moon, in img 11, and not imgs- 3,or 7,
as the missing # size 9, in the sequence small to large 1 thru 12 moons
maybe you stated why and i missed it
The halo around the star is the correct size 9. It says 9 carved above it.
wk
erexere wrote::
Treetops, excellent post. Keep in mind the aquamarine shouldve ben Clevelands reward. Something whiterabbit mentioned once that really interested me was a marriage chart that attempts to connect two different fair folk cultures by way of hands on a clock style arrangement. For example, Greece at number 4 and Germany at number 10. I dont know that it should mean a string correlation, because I dont see anything German in theV4 or P4, but the focus on a birch does come i to play in the Milwaukee setting. Hmm. Try Cathay at 6 o'clock and Russia at 12 o'clock...or Old Italy at 5 o'clock and Ireland at 11 o'clock. Each marriage offers a little cross cultural referencing. Certainly we think of V3/P11 as involved with a Greek component but there is also something to consider with the proximity of Rome to the setting of the Peloponnesian War...
I havent toyed with this in awhile, and I forget if it made any difference to fixing the pairings.
Another idea I had was to mark the voyage of the folk in a similar way to what you describe. Then I read that you did not need to have the items on a clock but instead repeat the sequence horizontally. Check out modulus arithmetic.
Oregonian
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There are similar features in images 1 & 11:
(11 moons in image 1, 1 moon in image 11)
I was just browsing through the archives and I came across this interesting post that WhiteRabbit put up almost exactly four years ago:
Yes, indeed, those are similar features! But WR left out what might be the most important one.
Remember our friend Horace Walpole, who said "there will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston"? There's some resemblance between his house, Strawberry Hill, and the design on the box the Image 11 woman is holding:
It's not a perfect match, but the two structures are certainly similar. And, if we accept that the front of the dress in Image 1 is Golden Gate Park and the crossed arms are Crossover Drive, then the circle directly below the crossed arms would be Stow Lake, right?
From Stow Lake one has a nice view of the
Sutro Tower
("Not far away / High posts are three"):
So what's the name of the island in the middle of Stow Lake? You guessed it:
Strawberry Hill
.
Just a coincidence? Maybe. But it is kind of interesting that both images have a Strawberry Hill in almost exactly the same place. And it's also kind of interesting that Image 1 has a Chinese theme and the Strawberry Hill in Golden Gate Park has a
Chinese Pavilion
that was given to the city of San Francisco in 1976 and dedicated in 1981.
Not convinced? Try this on for size. A few steps away from the Chinese Pavilion on Strawberry Hill, there's an artificial waterfall called Huntington Falls. And there's quite a striking similarity between the vertical, rounded stones of Huntington Falls and the stonework in Image 1:
Still have some doubts? Then how about one last fact: From the Chinese Pavilion to the top of Huntington Falls, there is a long, steep staircase ("giant step") with a long, metal handrail
running
along it ("giant pole").
At the top of the stairs, the handrail ends in a spiral very similar to the spiral shown in the stem of the rose in Image 1:
"Giant pole / Giant step / To the place / The casque is kept."
Hmm...
Oregonian
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There are similar features in images 1 & 11:
(11 moons in image 1, 1 moon in image 11)
I was just browsing through the archives and I came across this interesting post that WhiteRabbit put up almost exactly four years ago:
Yes, indeed, those are similar features! But WR left out what might be the most important one.
Remember our friend Horace Walpole, who said "there will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston"? There's some resemblance between his house, Strawberry Hill, and the design on the box the Image 11 woman is holding:
It's not a perfect match, but the two structures are certainly similar. And, if we accept that the front of the dress in Image 1 is Golden Gate Park and the crossed arms are Crossover Drive, then the circle directly below the crossed arms would be Stow Lake, right?
From Stow Lake one has a nice view of the
Sutro Tower
("Not far away / High posts are three"):
So what's the name of the island in the middle of Stow Lake? You guessed it:
Strawberry Hill
.
Just a coincidence? Maybe. But it is kind of interesting that both images have a Strawberry Hill in almost exactly the same place. And it's also kind of interesting that Image 1 has a Chinese theme and the Strawberry Hill in Golden Gate Park has a
Chinese Pavilion
that was given to the city of San Francisco in 1976 and dedicated in 1981.
Not convinced? Try this on for size. A few steps away from the Chinese Pavilion on Strawberry Hill, there's an artificial waterfall called
Huntington
Falls. And there's quite a striking similarity between the vertical, rounded stones of
Huntington
Falls and the stonework in Image 1:
Still have some doubts? Then how about one last fact: From the Chinese Pavilion to the top of
Huntington
Falls, there is a long, steep staircase ("giant step") with a long, metal handrail running along it ("giant pole").
At the top of the stairs, the handrail ends in a spiral very similar to the spiral shown in the stem of the rose in Image 1:
"Giant pole / Giant step / To the place / The casque is kept."
Hmm...
Oregonian
WhiteRabbit wrote::
There are similar features in images 1 & 11:
(11 moons in image 1, 1 moon in image 11)
I was just browsing through the archives and I came across this interesting post that WhiteRabbit put up almost exactly four years ago:
Yes, indeed, those are similar features! But WR left out what might be the most important one.
Remember our friend Horace Walpole, who said "there will, perhaps, be a Thucydides at Boston"? There's some resemblance between his house, Strawberry Hill, and the design on the box the Image 11 woman is holding:
It's not a perfect match, but the two structures are certainly similar. And, if we accept that the front of the dress in Image 1 is Golden Gate Park and the crossed arms are Crossover Drive, then the circle directly below the crossed arms would be Stow Lake, right?
From Stow Lake one has a nice view of the
Sutro Tower
("Not far away / High posts are three"):
So what's the name of the island in the middle of Stow Lake? You guessed it:
Strawberry Hill
.
Just a coincidence? Maybe. But it is kind of interesting that both images have a Strawberry Hill in almost exactly the same place. And it's also kind of interesting that Image 1 has a Chinese theme and the Strawberry Hill in Golden Gate Park has a
Chinese Pavilion
that was given to the city of San Francisco in 1976 and dedicated in 1981.
Not convinced? Try this on for size. A few steps away from the Chinese Pavilion on Strawberry Hill, there's an artificial waterfall called Huntington Falls. And there's quite a striking similarity between the vertical, rounded stones of Huntington Falls and the stonework in Image 1:
Still have some doubts? Then how about one last fact: From the Chinese Pavilion to the top of Huntington Falls, there is a long, steep staircase ("giant step") with a long, metal handrail running along it ("giant pole").
At the top of the stairs, the handrail ends in a spiral very similar to the spiral shown in the stem of the rose in Image 1:
"Giant pole / Giant step / To the place / The casque is kept."
Hmm...
dellucc
Image 1 - June - Pearl - Historic / Founded June 13, 1776. Fort built at Golden Gate - St. Francis of Assisi.
catherwood
Oregonian wrote::
"Giant pole / Giant step / To the place / The casque is kept."
Hmm...
I like the Falls. I like the spiral at the end of the handrail. My question is: where to dig? If one takes the "giant step(s)" to "the place", is there something at the top or bottom of interest?
Oregonian
catherwood wrote::
I like the Falls. I like the spiral at the end of the handrail. My question is: where to dig? If one takes the "giant step(s)" to "the place", is there something at the top or bottom of interest?
I'd say the "giant step" is the staircase to the top of the falls and the "giant pole" is the railing. If I were in San Francisco, I'd be poking around at the top of that handrail, directly under the spiral.
treetops
I've looked at
Huntington
Falls before, but I like your analysis, so I'll likely head back there again, maybe this Thursday.
For the first time, I'm looking at that "map" of GGP on her robe, and wondering if the spacing of the characters along the edges is intended to indicate that the portion of the map above her folded arms has been compressed vertically, while the area below the arms is at a different scale. That would account for the fact that the proportions of the rectangular shape aren't correct for GGP, which has always bugged me.
What is the source for your photo of the spiral end of the railing? My recollection is that the railing on that staircase has been a plain green pole for some time, though I don't know when it was replaced.
treetops
I've looked at Huntington Falls before, but I like your analysis, so I'll likely head back there again, maybe this Thursday.
For the first time, I'm looking at that "map" of GGP on her robe, and wondering if the spacing of the characters along the edges is intended to indicate that the portion of the map above her folded arms has been compressed vertically, while the area below the arms is at a different scale. That would account for the fact that the proportions of the rectangular shape aren't correct for GGP, which has always bugged me.
What is the source for your photo of the spiral end of the railing? My recollection is that the railing on that staircase has been a plain green pole for some time, though I don't know when it was replaced.
Oregonian
treetops wrote::
What is the source for your photo of the spiral end of the railing? My recollection is that the railing on that staircase has been a plain green pole for some time, though I don't know when it was replaced.
The photo comes from
a user on Flickr
and was taken in 2010. I've tried contacting the photographer to get more information, but I haven't received a response. If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up
Huntington
Falls.
Re: the dress. Yes, I'm sure that the crossed arms represent Crossover Drive (Highway 1) and the neckline represents Great Highway. The compression between the neckline and the arms essentially means "ignore this area." (And that, of course, is the area where "Goddess of the Forest" once stood.) The layout of the dress leaves us looking at an area between Highway 1 and Stanyan Street. I assume that the symbols around the map represent various landmarks in those locations. Unfortunately, many of them may be logos of businesses that are long gone. But we still have plenty of evidence to narrow the search to Strawberry Hill and the Chinese Pavilion.
If you get over to the park this week, please PLEASE take very clear pictures of all the Chinese symbols on display at the pavilion. I'd be willing to bet a large box of Ghirardelli chocolates that a translation of one of the pillars will produce something along the lines of "Education and Justice / For all to see."
Oregonian
treetops wrote::
What is the source for your photo of the spiral end of the railing? My recollection is that the railing on that staircase has been a plain green pole for some time, though I don't know when it was replaced.
The photo comes from
a user on Flickr
and was taken in 2010. I've tried contacting the photographer to get more information, but I haven't received a response. If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up Huntington Falls.
Re: the dress. Yes, I'm sure that the crossed arms represent Crossover Drive (Highway 1) and the neckline represents Great Highway. The compression between the neckline and the arms essentially means "ignore this area." (And that, of course, is the area where "Goddess of the Forest" once stood.) The layout of the dress leaves us looking at an area between Highway 1 and Stanyan Street. I assume that the symbols around the map represent various landmarks in those locations. Unfortunately, many of them may be logos of businesses that are long gone. But we still have plenty of evidence to narrow the search to Strawberry Hill and the Chinese Pavilion.
If you get over to the park this week, please PLEASE take very clear pictures of all the Chinese symbols on display at the pavilion. I'd be willing to bet a large box of Ghirardelli chocolates that a translation of one of the pillars will produce something along the lines of "Education and Justice / For all to see."
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian wrote::
The photo comes from
a user on Flickr
and was taken in 2010. I've tried contacting the photographer to get more information, but I haven't received a response. If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up Huntington Falls.
Just an FYI - the railing "flower" cap is on the short railing leading up to the Japanese Garden (as opposed to the long railing leading from Huntington Falls).
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian wrote::
The photo comes from
a user on Flickr
and was taken in 2010. I've tried contacting the photographer to get more information, but I haven't received a response. If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up
Huntington
Falls.
Just an FYI - the railing "flower" cap is on the short railing leading up to the Japanese Garden (as opposed to the long railing leading from
Huntington
Falls).
decibalnyc
So if we suspect that the SF casque is in the Japanese Garden, and we have the Cleveland casque at the Greek Cultural Gardens, and Chicago was found behind Lincoln in the area of the Art institute gardens south off McCormick...
"Flanking the original Art Institute of Chicago Building are gardens in the north and south McCormick Courtyards" - Wiki
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Park_(Chicago
)#Gardens
I see a pattern here....Just sayin...
tjgrey
I would say that BP's first choice in an area was a cultural gardens, and then a park with some cultural references, or at least an area heavy with culture of the area (and image).
Otherwise, how about St. Augustine (FOY)? Or Charleston?
Maybe we should move this to the Methodology thread...
Oregonian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Just an FYI - the railing "flower" cap is on the short railing leading up to the Japanese Garden (as opposed to the long railing leading from
Huntington
Falls).
Good to know! I'd say the "area of interest" in Golden Gate Park is shrinking quickly to an oval enclosing these points:
the Garden of Shakespeare's Flowers ("stone wall's door"),
Spreckels Temple of Music ("the air smells sweet"),
the Japanese Garden (with the spiral railing), and
Strawberry Hill.
Of those, Spreckels Temple has the most obvious "giant pole" (a flagpole), but it's a heavy traffic area where it would have been hard to dig. Strawberry Hill has the advantage of being less formal and less visited. It also has the Chinese Pavilion (for the cultural connection to the casque) and it has
Huntington
Falls (for the visual connection to the image).
Solving this one is probably going to require deciphering those symbols on the margin of the dress in Image 1.
Oregonian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Just an FYI - the railing "flower" cap is on the short railing leading up to the Japanese Garden (as opposed to the long railing leading from Huntington Falls).
Good to know! I'd say the "area of interest" in Golden Gate Park is shrinking quickly to an oval enclosing these points:
the Garden of Shakespeare's Flowers ("stone wall's door"),
Spreckels Temple of Music ("the air smells sweet"),
the Japanese Garden (with the spiral railing), and
Strawberry Hill.
Of those, Spreckels Temple has the most obvious "giant pole" (a flagpole), but it's a heavy traffic area where it would have been hard to dig. Strawberry Hill has the advantage of being less formal and less visited. It also has the Chinese Pavilion (for the cultural connection to the casque) and it has Huntington Falls (for the visual connection to the image).
Solving this one is probably going to require deciphering those symbols on the margin of the dress in Image 1.
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian wrote::
Good to know! I'd say the "area of interest" in Golden Gate Park is shrinking quickly to an oval enclosing these points:
the Garden of Shakespeare's Flowers ("stone wall's door"),
Spreckels Temple of Music ("the air smells sweet"),
the Japanese Garden (with the spiral railing), and
Strawberry Hill.
Of those, Spreckels Temple has the most obvious "giant pole" (a flagpole), but it's a heavy traffic area where it would have been hard to dig. Strawberry Hill has the advantage of being less formal and less visited. It also has the Chinese Pavilion (for the cultural connection to the casque) and it has
Huntington
Falls (for the visual connection to the image).
Solving this one is probably going to require deciphering those symbols on the margin of the dress in Image 1.
Don't forget Drake's Cross
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian wrote::
Good to know! I'd say the "area of interest" in Golden Gate Park is shrinking quickly to an oval enclosing these points:
the Garden of Shakespeare's Flowers ("stone wall's door"),
Spreckels Temple of Music ("the air smells sweet"),
the Japanese Garden (with the spiral railing), and
Strawberry Hill.
Of those, Spreckels Temple has the most obvious "giant pole" (a flagpole), but it's a heavy traffic area where it would have been hard to dig. Strawberry Hill has the advantage of being less formal and less visited. It also has the Chinese Pavilion (for the cultural connection to the casque) and it has Huntington Falls (for the visual connection to the image).
Solving this one is probably going to require deciphering those symbols on the margin of the dress in Image 1.
Don't forget Drake's Cross
Oregonian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Don't forget Drake's Cross
It's always a possibility, of course, but I wouldn't personally include that location in my oval. I'm fairly confident that the casque is somewhere along a straight line running right through the park. It's no further west than the top of Strawberry Hill and it's no further east than the Shakespeare garden. It might not be right at the Chinese Pavilion, but it's not very far away.
Can you tell us more precisely where that spiral railing is located? You said that it's "on the short railing leading up to the Japanese Garden." Is that at the crosswalk where Stow Lake Drive makes a hairpin curve, or is there another path up? That photo is tagged with "Taipei Pavilion," "Stow Lake," and "Strawberry Hill," so it can't be far away.
treetops
I believe that shorter staircase runs downhill from the NE corner of Stow Lake towards the Japanese Tea Garden's exit. There is a fairly straight line connecting Tea Garden, staircase, and
Huntington
Falls. The Chinese Pavilion is a bit to the south of the falls. So yes, it's at the hairpin turn you describe.
treetops
I believe that shorter staircase runs downhill from the NE corner of Stow Lake towards the Japanese Tea Garden's exit. There is a fairly straight line connecting Tea Garden, staircase, and Huntington Falls. The Chinese Pavilion is a bit to the south of the falls. So yes, it's at the hairpin turn you describe.
treetops
I'm taking back my statement about the robe not matching the proportions of GGP. When I overlay a map of the park, it's a perfect fit. However, when you do this, her arms are not at Crossover Drive; they're at Sunset Blvd. And the shape you're matching with Stow Lake is actually where the Polo Field is. It's the smaller "island" further down the robe that's closer to the Stow Lake area.
Oregonian
treetops wrote::
I'm taking back my statement about the robe not matching the proportions of GGP. When I overlay a map of the park, it's a perfect fit. However, when you do this, her arms are not at Crossover Drive; they're at Sunset Blvd.
Right. Everything west of Crossover Drive (from Crossover to Great Highway) has been compressed down to almost nothing in the dress map. The dress is just showing us Crossover to Stanyan, so you should try to line up those two endpoints. The blue circle below the woman's wrists will be Stow Lake. (See the graphic I posted earlier.)
If you go to the park and take pictures of the pavilion on Thursday, be sure to keep track of which pillar you are photographing. If my hunch is correct, the Chinese symbols for Education and Justice are going to appear somewhere, and we'll need to keep track of where we need to be standing to keep them in view.
cw0909
@ 1:20 is some of the handrail
hxxp://youtu.be/wjeseEdWH1Q?t=1m20s
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up
Huntington
Falls.
Very nicely done Oregonian.
The spiral fits the line theory, although not as precisely as the Cleveland solve. But it's close enough.
North of everything is Fulton Street. Robert Fulton equals steamboats, which were most certainly objects of Twain's attention. So I'd suggest north of the spiral is the best place to explore, probe, and eventually dig.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
If the spiral is still there, it shouldn't be hard to find. It must be somewhere along that staircase up Huntington Falls.
Very nicely done Oregonian.
The spiral fits the line theory, although not as precisely as the Cleveland solve. But it's close enough.
North of everything is Fulton Street. Robert Fulton equals steamboats, which were most certainly objects of Twain's attention. So I'd suggest north of the spiral is the best place to explore, probe, and eventually dig.
treetops
Just got back from Stow Lake with a bunch of photos for everyone. You can click through to flickr for larger images. You might find a map of the Stow Lake area helpful. Here we go.
This is the exit at the back of the Japanese Tea Garden:
This is the view to the staircase in question, facing roughly SW from near the Tea Garden exit:
The ornament at the bottom of the stairs:
The view from the top of the stairs:
Standing at the top ornament, facing roughly north:
That path takes you right around the corner to this view of the NE-most point of Stow Lake. The Chinese Pavilion is visible from here, off behind some trees:
Now, over by Huntington Falls, here's what that railing looks like:
The view from one of the Falls bridges, looking back NE towards where we came from:
Top of the Falls. From here we can see the dome and two towers of St. Ignatius Church, located on the USF campus:
Back at the base of the Falls, it's a very short walk to the NW side of the Chinese Pavilion:
Here's the April 15, 1981 dedication sign:
It reads:
---
The people of the City and County of San Francisco proudly accept this pavilion from the Honorable Teng Hui Lee, Mayor of our Sister City, Taipei, as a testament to the abiding friendship between the people of Taipei and San Francisco, on the Occasion of the Official dedication of the Golden Gate Pavilion.
We are grateful for this treasured addition to Golden Gate Park
[names]
On behalf of the people of Taipei, I present this Golden Gate Pavilion to the people of San Francisco as a confirmation of friendship and cultural exchange between our sister cities and to comemorate the struggle and contributions of the early Chinese settlers in California.
I extend our appreciation to the Honorable Dianne Feinstein, Mayor of San Francisco, the Board of Supervisors, City of San Francisco, Mr. Pius Lee, Chairman of the San Francisco-Taipei Sister City Committee, and the Chinese Community for their efforts and contributions toward the realization of this memorable gift.
Honorable Teng-Hui Lee
Mayor of Taipei, ROC
---
Railing detail, entering the Pavilion:
One of the dragon decorations:
Sign over the entrance:
This decoration is inside the Pavilion, behind the sign, and continues all the way around:
Plaque mounted on the table at the center of the Pavilion:
It reads:
---
Two sister cities were made, side by side and hand in hand. Is peoples' well-being thus made.
Residing in this wide world. Cooperating closely from our hearts. The universal brotherhood is thus made.
A scenic spot in USA for ascending remained, easterly coming culture. A real friend can not by wanting in this wide world.
A great ocean on ROC for crossing lain, westerly looking from Golden Gate. The world although so wide becomes as near as in the neighborhood.
---
Here are the four columns that have writing on them:
NW side, left:
NW side, right:
SE side, left:
SE side, right:
Translations anyone?
One thought that occurred to me, and not for the first time, was that "Object of Twain's attention" can be interpreted as referring not to Mark Twain, but to the opening lines of Kipling's "Ballad of East and West", which would suit this memorial to east-west friendship.
Oregonian
Rock on, Treetops!
Thank you for doing that. Those are great photos.
I also like your idea about "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." Preiss capitalized "Twain," of course, but that could just be his sneakiness. A gift from a sister city in Asia is definitely a nice match for the twain giving their attention to the same thing.
I assume that from the hairpin curve near the spiral railing one can see Huntington Falls. Did you happen to notice whether you could also see
Sutro
Tower from that spot?
Oregonian
Rock on, Treetops!
Thank you for doing that. Those are great photos.
I also like your idea about "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." Preiss capitalized "Twain," of course, but that could just be his sneakiness. A gift from a sister city in Asia is definitely a nice match for the twain giving their attention to the same thing.
I assume that from the hairpin curve near the spiral railing one can see Huntington Falls. Did you happen to notice whether you could also see Sutro Tower from that spot?
treetops
I fully expected to have a clear view of the Falls from the hairpin, so I was surprised when I discovered that that little island in the NE arm of the lake does a good job of obscuring it.
On
Sutro
Tower: I've always been unhappy with this as a solution for "Not far away high posts are three", because it's clearly visible from many, many parts of the city. Referencing it as a locator just seems to say, "Hey, you're still in San Francisco." I also tend to read "Education and Justice for all to see" as further information about the "high posts", and I don't see a
Sutro
Tower connection to either. But yes, you have a nice view of it from all around the Stow Lake area.
treetops
I fully expected to have a clear view of the Falls from the hairpin, so I was surprised when I discovered that that little island in the NE arm of the lake does a good job of obscuring it.
On Sutro Tower: I've always been unhappy with this as a solution for "Not far away high posts are three", because it's clearly visible from many, many parts of the city. Referencing it as a locator just seems to say, "Hey, you're still in San Francisco." I also tend to read "Education and Justice for all to see" as further information about the "high posts", and I don't see a Sutro Tower connection to either. But yes, you have a nice view of it from all around the Stow Lake area.
cw0909
nice pics treetops thanks, what is at the bottom of the rail here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31515168@N00/15416550199/
treetops
Are you asking what's in the immediate vicinity of the bottom of the stairs? If you take a look at the photo previous to the one you're asking about, you can see there's a paved walk, with rocks and foliage on both sides making it difficult to explore off the path. Back down the path past the Tea Garden exit, you cross a small lawn to reach a street where cars can drive through the park. Across that street is the entrance to the massive Strybing Arboretum. Like many Arboretums, Strybing has areas representing different climes and countries. I've been to the Asian gardens there, which had some stone lamp sculptures bearing no resemblance to anything in Image 1.
Oregonian
A few more questions for you, Treetops:
- Is there any other staircase in the park that has the metal spiral or is the one you photographed unique?
- Am I correct in thinking that the railing with the two spirals runs down the middle of the staircase (so people can go up and down on either side of it)?
- Do you happen to have a shot looking up the stairs or down the stairs in a way that shows the whole staircase?
- If not, do you have an estimate for how many steps there were?
Thanks for your help, as always!
treetops
No idea if there are other staircases in the park that have those ornaments. The thought even crossed my mind, "What if these ornaments used to be on a different railing and they moved them onto this one at some point?"
Sorry I didn't take photographs of the whole staircase. Still, you can see it in the second photograph, the one with the guy looking at his phone. The railing runs down the middle and it looks like there are about 28-30 steps, broken up into to sections with a short flat stretch in the middle.
Oregonian
Excellent! Okay, here's my thought: I think we are looking for a place on the eastern edge of Stow Lake where one can see (or almost see):
Sutro
Tower,
Strawberry Hill,
Huntington Falls,
the Chinese pavilion, and
a green spiral like the one at the end of the rose stem.
(I'm going to allow a bit of flexibility on the view, if trees are in the way, because it's been 30 years and things may have grown up a bit.)
From everything we've heard, it appears that there's only one handrail in the park that has the spiral. And from the way the metal on the spiral is weathered and worn, I'm willing to assume that it's been in existence for at least 30 years. There's always a chance it was moved, of course, but I can't imagine why it would be. They must have always needed a handrail at that spot, and the pole seems custom-made for it. So that's our handrail ("giant pole") going up the stairway ("giant step"). And from the photo that Treetops posted, I think we can rule out the spiral at the bottom. There's no view of anything from there.
So we're looking at the spiral at the top of the stairs. Now what?
Let's take a look at the two sleeves on the dress:
Each sleeve of the woman's dress is decorated with two columns of blue squares. The columns start very sharply and cleanly at the top with complete squares but fade away into shadows at the bottom, indicating perhaps that we are only supposed to be doing a precise count from one end.
The woman's left index finger is upside-down and pointing at the lower edge of the fourth row of blocks. The woman's right index finger is right-side-up and pointing at the upper edge of the fourth row of blocks. Taken together, the fingers seem to be indicating a range: No higher than the top of the fourth row and no lower than the bottom of the fourth row.
The structure of each pattern, with two columns of blocks going up and down, might represent a stairway with a handrail going up the middle. If we are being instructed to count from the top, it might be saying that we should focus our attention within the range of the fourth step.
That would still leave us with two sides of the stairway for digging, of course, but maybe that's the point of this line: "In jewel's direction / Is an object / Of Twain's attention" Unfortunately, I still don't know what "object" that would be. (Wouldn't it be great if the woods beside the stairway once had a small sculpture of a jumping frog? A guy can dream.)
So... If anyone in San Francisco feels like visiting the park this weekend, please take a camera and show us what the ground is like on either side of that fourth step.
Oregonian
Excellent! Okay, here's my thought: I think we are looking for a place on the eastern edge of Stow Lake where one can see (or almost see):
Sutro Tower,
Strawberry Hill,
Huntington Falls,
the Chinese pavilion, and
a green spiral like the one at the end of the rose stem.
(I'm going to allow a bit of flexibility on the view, if trees are in the way, because it's been 30 years and things may have grown up a bit.)
From everything we've heard, it appears that there's only one handrail in the park that has the spiral. And from the way the metal on the spiral is weathered and worn, I'm willing to assume that it's been in existence for at least 30 years. There's always a chance it was moved, of course, but I can't imagine why it would be. They must have always needed a handrail at that spot, and the pole seems custom-made for it. So that's our handrail ("giant pole") going up the stairway ("giant step"). And from the photo that Treetops posted, I think we can rule out the spiral at the bottom. There's no view of anything from there.
So we're looking at the spiral at the top of the stairs. Now what?
Let's take a look at the two sleeves on the dress:
Each sleeve of the woman's dress is decorated with two columns of blue squares. The columns start very sharply and cleanly at the top with complete squares but fade away into shadows at the bottom, indicating perhaps that we are only supposed to be doing a precise count from one end.
The woman's left index finger is upside-down and pointing at the lower edge of the fourth row of blocks. The woman's right index finger is right-side-up and pointing at the upper edge of the fourth row of blocks. Taken together, the fingers seem to be indicating a range: No higher than the top of the fourth row and no lower than the bottom of the fourth row.
The structure of each pattern, with two columns of blocks going up and down, might represent a stairway with a handrail going up the middle. If we are being instructed to count from the top, it might be saying that we should focus our attention within the range of the fourth step.
That would still leave us with two sides of the stairway for digging, of course, but maybe that's the point of this line: "In jewel's direction / Is an object / Of Twain's attention" Unfortunately, I still don't know what "object" that would be. (Wouldn't it be great if the woods beside the stairway once had a small sculpture of a jumping frog? A guy can dream.)
So... If anyone in San Francisco feels like visiting the park this weekend, please take a camera and show us what the ground is like on either side of that fourth step.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
That would still leave us with two sides of the stairway for digging
Line theory suggests the north side:
So does the verse if you accept the Fulton/Twain connection.
If I were probing, I would allow at least 18 to 24" on either side of the staircase for the foundation, and assume that anything that I hit in that area is going to be part of the staircase construction. If the casque is still there, it's probably 2-4 feet from the edge of the staircase. So, while I had my doubts, it would appear that Oregonian has narrowed down the dig spot to an area no bigger than 3-5 square feet. Impressive.
Still unsure how the first few lines of the verse lead you to this area, but the visual clues are pretty hard to ignore.
meatypuffs
Ugh, I totally walked up that staircase when I was there in May, months before I had even heard of this treasure hunt. I just looked through my photos of my trip and sadly didn't get any of this staircase. If I recall correctly, both sides of the staircase were lined with plants which would make digging difficult. I assume that much hasn't changed since the 80's either, but I could be wrong.
This photo from treetops kind of shows the stair I believe you guys have narrowed down for a possible dig spot:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31515168@ ... otostream/
. I like where this is headed, I just think digging along those staircases, as best as I can remember them, will be difficult without removing a bunch of plants.
Near the entrance of the tea garden (just down the hill from the staircase) is this object, which somewhat resembles the leg of the table the flower is sitting on (admittedly not as close in proximity or resemblance as I'd like it to be):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Golde ... 68ef3ba730
.
decibalnyc
I like that image match.
treetops
meatypuffs: I've looked at that stone "lantern" by the Tea Garden many times, hoping to find an angle from which it looks like the table base, or to find some detail on it that matches any element of the painting. No luck. The silhouette is actually closer to the generic lampposts found throughout Golden Gate Park, though still not a close enough match for an "aha" moment.
Regarding the Japanese Tea Garden and its associated artworks in general, I really want to believe that Preiss took some care with the distinction between Chinese and Japanese icons here.
Back to the Chinese Pavilion: Can someone refresh my memory as to when exactly Preiss was visiting sites to plan the book? If the Pavilion was dedicated in April, 1981, and The Secret was published in November of 1982, it would have been quite a new landmark if he was there. If he planned things out very far in advance however, it's no longer a candidate for being part of the San Francisco hunt.
And yes, your recollections about the area around the stairway match my observations the other day.
meatypuffs
meatypuffs wrote::
Near the entrance of the tea garden (just down the hill from the staircase) is this object, which somewhat resembles the leg of the table the flower is sitting on (admittedly not as close in proximity or resemblance as I'd like it to be):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Golde ... 68ef3ba730
.
If we're thinking the table leg is a lantern (several in the past have thought lantern or light post), there are additional lanterns inside the tea garden itself, some of which may be visible from this staircase (I seem to recall the staircase overlooking much of the Japanese Tea Garden, someone on foot in SF could likely confirm). Several can be seen on this page for reference:
hxxp://www.san-francisco-travel-secrets ... cisco.html
meatypuffs
treetops wrote::
meatypuffs: I've looked at that stone "lantern" by the Tea Garden many times, hoping to find an angle from which it looks like the table base, or to find some detail on it that matches any element of the painting. No luck. The silhouette is actually closer to the generic lampposts found throughout Golden Gate Park, though still not a close enough match for an "aha" moment.
Agreed, it's vague resemblance makes me uncomfortable for calling it, as you say, an "aha moment". However, one of the park's lanterns or one of the various ones in the Tea Garden (see my post a few minutes ago) may be another visual confirmation for the final digging location.
That's such a beautiful area. I'm trying to plan another trip from Nebraska to visit. I hope this baby is dug up before then, though!
Oregonian
treetops wrote::
Back to the Chinese Pavilion: Can someone refresh my memory as to when exactly Preiss was visiting sites to plan the book? If the Pavilion was dedicated in April, 1981, and The Secret was published in November of 1982, it would have been quite a new landmark if he was there. If he planned things out very far in advance however, it's no longer a candidate for being part of the San Francisco hunt.
Yeah, I've been meaning to post the history of that pavilion and I just haven't gotten around to it.
The pavilion was a gift from San Francisco's sister city of Taipei, the capital of Taiwan. The pavilion wasn't officially dedicated until 1981, but it was actually given in 1976 to celebrate the U.S. bicentennial. Preiss had plenty of time to hear about it and see it being built.
But here's the funny thing: This wasn't the only Chinese pavilion that Taipei gave to a U.S. city as a bicentennial gift. Remember "friendship south"? That's right. The other pavilion went to Houston, Texas and was put in Hermann Park. It's part of what people have been using for years now as a clue in Verse 1.
Make of that what you will.
erexere
cool stuff. I'm liking the bicentennial stuff more an more.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Can someone refresh my memory as to when exactly Preiss was visiting sites to plan the book?
My best guess is that the San Francisco casque was put into the ground no later than the fall of 1981, or early winter of 1982. I seem to recall reading somewhere on this forum that his then girlfriend (and future wife) was in California at the time, so it's certainly possible that he scouted this one location during one of his earlier visits with her. But in general, I don't think he spent more than a day or two in each of the casque cities, nor do I think he scouted any of them in person in advance.
treetops
Great info Oregonian!
Here's another slew of photos of that staircase, since there seems to be interest in more detail. (It certainly is nice living a short walk from Golden Gate Park.) I'm hoping these will convey just how little you can see from this staircase, surrounded by trees as it is. If there is a connection to image 1, it might just be that the spiral ornaments are something you see on your way to the treasure, kind of like the centaur statue in image 5.
I also took a walk around the perimeter of Stow Lake, looking for another staircase like this. I couldn't find any comparable pedestrian exit from the area. The main way in and out on foot is around the boat rental building at the NW end of the lake.
The top of the stairs, facing the south branch of the path:
Looking down the stairs:
View north, upper half of stairs:
View south, upper half of stairs:
Middle of stairs:
View north, lower stairs:
View south, lower stairs:
Looking up from base:
View north from the path, just east of the foot of the stairs:
View south from the same vantage point:
And here's what's around the other side of the trees in that last photo (the staircase runs parallel to the back of the bench, about 20 feet behind it).
Oregonian
Great work, Treetops!
I feel reasonably certain that this is our stairway. When I listed those sights earlier, I didn't mean that you have to be able to see them from the exact spot of burial. If Preiss could see those things from the hairpin curve on Stow Lake Drive, that's good enough for me. It makes sense that he would then walk a little way down the path to have a more secluded spot for digging. The spiral on the railing is the confirmation that we're in the right place.
My money is still on either side of that fourth step. I take it you didn't feel ready to do any probing today? The most important bit of info I found in your photos is that you aren't likely to do any harm by digging around there. The vine that appears on both sides of the stairs is English Ivy and it's a horrible invasive weed in the park. The managers would probably be grateful if you managed to kill some of it off. So I'd say it's time to start moving a little soil.
treetops
Why not the landing in the middle of the staircase as the "giant step"? That's one way of looking at it.
I sure wish something in the vicinity sang out as "Object of Twain's attention." This verse seems so stingy compared to some of the others.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
This verse seems so stingy compared to some of the others.
If you look at the Verse 7 Thread, you'll see that they had most of the verse figured out almost from the beginning. The problem seems to be that no one made the leap from "giant step" to "giant steps". For want of an "s", this thing might have been dug up 10 years ago, if in fact we are finally in the right place. But if we are, it's the Image that supports the solve. The verse is almost useless.
erexere
treetops wrote::
Why not the landing in the middle of the staircase as the "giant step"? That's one way of looking at it.
I sure wish something in the vicinity sang out as "Object of Twain's attention." This verse seems so stingy compared to some of the others.
Stingy indeed. "Seek columns for the search"..."fence and fixture"..."giant pole, giant step"...all seem like strong nudges when the right vicinity has been sleuthed.
I strongly believe the big thought involved with "giant pole, giant step" is allusion to the moon landing for the purpose of signifying someting to do with either a flagpole, a reference to Apollo, or the number 11, since the Apollo 11 mission involved significant focus on placing a US flag on the moon and involved the memorable phrase "...one giant leap for mankind".
How many orbs are counted in the sky above in image 1? Isnt it 11?
Oregonian
So... Is anyone thinking of actually digging on either side of that fourth step, or do I need to make a San Francisco trip?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
So... Is anyone thinking of actually digging on either side of that fourth step, or do I need to make a San Francisco trip?
I'd be willing to bet the same box of chocolates that:
1) The area has already been scouted by someone other than treetops.
2) If it hasn't already been probed, someone is making plans to do so as I type this.
3) If it hasn't been done already, someone is planning a trip to the nearest Surplus Store to buy an entrenching tool so they can sneak a shovel into GGP, although personally, I hope that they will reach out to the proper authorities and do the dig legally. After 30+ years, it's very likely that we are no longer looking for a casque in a plexiglass box, but pieces of same (especially in the northern cities). A supervised dig is the best way to recover everything without imparting further damage, since it doesn't have to be done furtively.
I'd also be willing to bet that lots of people are using your solve to re-examine some of the images in an effort to define the dig spot for a casque that they are able to dig up. I'll say it again; it is very impressive.
I'm on the wrong coast for this one. But for what it's worth, I'm comfortable putting San Francisco in the same category (NLBTD*) as Milwaukee.
*Nothing left but the diggin'.
erexere
I'm still struggling to see how these new ideas come together. Its all been very interesting but I haven't been in agreement on anything for certain, at least not to the extent that I'd recommend digging or probing. I don't think of the puzzle as a loose assemblage of pieces. Its a tightly wound piece of work and a very sharp treatment of the verse is whats needed.
I might have said this before, the point of the line about an object of Twains attention has me leaning strongly towards something law based. Objection. I think the answer to the riddle is a "sentence" from a judge on his "bench". Twain's attention as a writer of sentences helps shape our approach to a physical bench.
Saoirse
Hello, I'm new so don't flame me if I say something out of line. Based on the symbols it seems like Shakespeare's garden is a good start. Once you enter the garden Running north but first across is a sundial on a pedestal . It looks like the pedestal in the picture. On top of the pedestal the quote is "count only the sunny days ". I was thinking after 6 it would be dark so it kinda matches the painting.
There is a stone gate in Shakespeare garden. There are 6 panels on the sides of the door in the middle of the stone wall. Behind the door is a statue of Shakespeare. You need permission to open it. It would be Twains attention since twain wrote. "Is Shakespeare really dead ?" Roman numerals represent the chapters in Twains autobiography. Big roses bloom here.
There's also a spiral on the bench in Shakespeare park. Dedicated to Alice. She was a botanist in SF. Actually a few symbols on that bench.
I think the posts is sutro tower.
There's also a silhouette of McKinley on the mountain in the picture. He's located at the end of the panhandle of GGP though. Plus it looks like Alcatraz bars in the picture.
I know the Japanese flower garden is close to Shakespeare garden. It' seems to be a place of interest. The dragon is a Chinese dragon. The dragon will have a pearl over its head like the picture. It's also a strong yin/yang symbol as it represents the Dragon and Phoenix. The woman in the picture may be the Chinese moon goddess. Might explain the moon? Beautiful roses as well in the Japanese tea garden.
Rainbow falls is interesting. There's the giant prayer book cross at the top. Orbs are said to be seen here. The moons in the painting? A column landmark is on the bottom of the falls.
Strawberry hill is in the area to. It's in the middle of stow lake. A roman bridge connects you to the island. The path spirals around the mountain to the top where you see beautiful views of GGP.
A Chinese pavilion is located here. Also ruins of an old observatory was on top strawberry hill. I still smells a bit like sweet strawberries.
So many landmarks... It's hard to narrow down. If this info has already been posted, I'm sorry. Still getting use to navigating the site
Oregonian
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I'd be willing to bet the same box of chocolates that:
1) The area has already been scouted by someone other than treetops.
2) If it hasn't already been probed, someone is making plans to do so as I type this.
3) If it hasn't been done already, someone is planning a trip to the nearest Surplus Store to buy an entrenching tool so they can sneak a shovel into GGP, although personally, I hope that they will reach out to the proper authorities and do the dig legally.
You may be right. (And I second your hope that people are doing things the proper way with permission from the authorities.) But it would be nice to get some confirmation that a casque retrieval is underway.
Hey, San Francisco folks! Is anyone taking action to pursue the stairway-railing-fourth-step solution, or do I need to send out my own search party?
erexere
Oregonian, I still cant see how you're treating the verse as a whole. Does that essential portion of this theory exist in specific location or are you operating on a more loose and visual approach? I've seen a lot of great speculations, but I dont see how it comes together.
treetops
I'm not confident enough in this location to start digging around. I'm going to try and get over to the local history collection at the main library and see if I can't turn up some contemporary photos or plans of the area.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I still cant see how you're treating the verse as a whole
If we are in the right place, and I think the image confirmations are too good to ignore, then the verse is little more than one big site confirmer for the NE corner of GGP. All the elements are there, but so loosely constructed that you have no chance of finding the dig spot without the image.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I'm not confident enough in this location to start digging around.
Fair enough. But the next time you are there, would you mind looking at the place Oregonian has suggested to see if there is any evidence of others working the spot? The thread has had a significant number of views, and I have to believe that someone is confident enough in the solve to at least start poking around.
Oregonian
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
the next time you are there, would you mind looking at the place Oregonian has suggested to see if there is any evidence of others working the spot?
Yeah, I second that request! Because, if there's no signs of digging, Renovator owes all of us a big box of Ghirardelli chocolates!
erexere
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
If we are in the right place, and I think the image confirmations are too good to ignore, then the verse is little more than one big site confirmer for the NE corner of GGP. All the elements are there, but so loosely constructed that you have no chance of finding the dig spot without the image.
GGP has been under the microscope many times for a long while now. It is a large area with many attractions, some of which have been heavily renovated. Finding the pearl of Far Cathay by loosely focusing on anything that resembles a giant step and pole isnt a bad way to start. Boots on the ground is the best/only way to narrow your search. I think the verse must be accurately applied at that point and not treated so lightly.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I think the verse must be accurately applied at that point and not treated so lightly.
Well, I did hedge by saying "little more". You need the verse to confirm that you are in the correct general area (rather loosely I might add), and you also need the verse to identify the treasure ground (giant pole, giant step). But you absolutely need the image to identify the dig spot. For this particular puzzle, the verse is significantly less important than the image (unlike say Milwaukee, where I believe the opposite is true).
erexere
Its all a case by case basis. I didn't mean to accuse anyone of ignoring the verse. I just wasn't seeing any strong verse correlation to what's being attributed to an image-matching approach. People have been working very hard, so respect and credit for all the exhaustive research and investigating.
While I like the tea garden area and the visuals, I also have a hard time seeing how some visuals are being treated, such as the hG, which so strongly matches from a view near Russian Park. Something about recognizing Ghirardelli from that perspective tells me there's something important to recognize towards finding the casque. I'm not saying the casque has to be in or near Russian Park, but maybe there's something about chocolate or the letters themselves which produce a particular viewpoint in your candidate area of the Tea Garden. Chocolate chip cookies/fortune cookies? Maybe there's some association there.
I'm banking on the fact that you can see Alcatraz from the Ghirardelli area and that seems to be visually represented in the background of the image with the prison bars. It's hard to decide which parts of the image might only be START visuals and which are END visuals (END being the treasure ground). Cleveland seemed to have most strongly END Visuals, while Chicago had BREADCRUMB visuals, but both had that faint sketching of lines that drew us closest to the casque when at the monolithic wall or the fence's arch. The table in image 1 looks to me like that kind of clue, so I want to think the casque is very close to some circular disk shaped thing, which is why the pool at the Palace of the Legion of Honor always seemed so compelling.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
But you absolutely need the image to identify the dig spot. For this particular puzzle, the verse is significantly less important than the image (unlike say Milwaukee, where I believe the opposite is true).
I sincerely doubt that this verse image combination is formulated differently than the two found casques.
Especially when there exists a solution for SF that exactly matches the methodology used in those.
To be specific:
Image- contains
lat/lon of the main search area
a starting point.
an indication of which road to take to the treasure ground.
Visual clues to indicate when you get to the treasure ground.
specific images you see from the site of the casque.
Verse contains the step by step directions from the general treasure ground to the casque.
This is how chicago worked
This is how cleveland worked
and this is how SF works, with the unfortunate realization the casque is no longer accessible.
maltedfalcon
Oregonian wrote::
. They must have always needed a handrail at that spot, and the pole seems custom-made for it. So that's our handrail ("giant pole") going up the stairway ("giant step").
Let's take a look at the two sleeves on the dress:
The woman's left index finger is upside-down and pointing at the lower edge of the fourth row of blocks. The woman's right index finger is right-side-up and pointing at the upper edge of the fourth row of blocks. Taken together, the fingers seem to be indicating a range: No higher than the top of the fourth row and no lower than the bottom of the fourth row.
it might be saying that we should focus our attention within the range of the fourth step.
There are sooo many problems with this theory. The first being a railing is not a pole. We have ad nauseum poured over BP's word choice and realized he was an incredible wordsmith. - He used pole, not rail not Bannister , handrail, support or balustrade. Railing doesnt fit.
The next is the analysis of the fingers, with out a doubt the fingers point at two different places, yet this is resolved into 4 .
they are blocks, if they looked like steps it would make sense. but they are blocks, they fingers point between blocks
The fingers point at the third line and the 4th line between blocks.
What's between blocks? Streets. : 3 4 Street
Also without distorting the map, just overlaying for real, the fingers actually point to 34th street
maltedfalcon
Hey All!
I just want to say I have dug many many times in Golden Gate Park.
The people who are the groundskeepers of the parks are super friendly and always interested in the Hunt.
I have never dug without permission and have never had any trouble getting permission.
They are encouraging and helpful. (well to the point of offering a shovel, but not digging)
They love to come out and watch (and comment, LOL )
So if you're are planning a dig, make contact with them rather than trying to sneak in, get caught and ruin it for the rest of us.
treetops
For those who were interested, I was by that staircase last Sunday, and saw no signs that anyone had been digging or poking around in the ivy on either side.
maltedfalcon
@ Oregonian
I really love the work you are doing to the secret wiki, it had been languishing for ages.
On the other hand, deleting anybodies entries but your's kind of defeats the purpose of a wiki.
MaltedFalcon.
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian.... I would also ask that you not include any PDF copies of the book on the wiki, regardless of their completeness. The documents were created illegally and the person who made them is not too keen on there dispersion. Especially when they are PDFs created with pirated Adobe software, and the data on the files allows for the creator to be identified. The creator might also have intended the file(s) to be used by those in a small group that already owned the book, and not the general public.
You feel me? TIA.
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Oregonian.... I would also ask that you not include any PDF copies of the book on the wiki, regardless of their completeness. The documents were created illegally and the person who made them is not too keen on there dispersion. Especially when they are PDFs created with pirated Adobe software, and the data on the files allows for the creator to be identified. The creator might also have intended the file(s) to be used by those in a small group that already owned the book, and not the general public.
You feel me? TIA.
Careful!, if you post stuff that doesn't support his views on thewiki he deletes your user account.
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
Careful!, if you post stuff that doesn't support his views on thewiki he deletes your user account.
Yeah, I just took a look at the wiki based on your original comment and am none to pleased.
@Oregonian, Did you seriously just join in the forum, take all our information, and are now posting it elsewhere?
Why do you think it is a good idea to disseminate all the information that we (Q4T) have worked on in such a public manner, especially when we know that the number of hunters is about to expand? Are you trying to give the noobs a leg up? I was under the impression that the wiki hadn't been updated in a while because it was quickly realized to be a bad idea. Have you thought this through? Cause, yeah... those wiki updates sure make me want to share more information on the forum.
I might just be in a shitty mood, but seriously.
erexere
maltedfalcon, I really like that visual derivation for 34th street. Solid. If just that one piece of visual information is correct, then we should be pretty damn close to the casque based on a route that involves that street.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
maltedfalcon, I really like that visual derivation for 34th street. Solid. If just that one piece of visual information is correct, then we should be pretty damn close to the casque based on a route that involves that street.
Well I had the whole solution posted at the wiki.
unfortunately it conflicted with oregonian's theory so he took it down and then deleted my wiki editor account.
erexere
Damn, thats straight up cold blooded.
Whoa, 34th street goes right up to the Palace of the Legion of Honor. That's refreshing.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Damn, thats straight up cold blooded. .
I'll say, he seems to be a bit of an Ass.
Any way to post here basically what he took down because it conflicted with his ideas....
If you got the Golden Gate Park map available in the 1980s
then overlaid the map - because the tourist map was not an accurate map, the outline of the dress panel fit perfectly
including the neckline (the map showed the Great highway as a curving line)
The map also labeld the Great highway with an upper case G and a lower case h using the font shown on the dress.
Back in 2000 I had that map and scans and posted those things on the original quest board. sadly that was many computers ago so I don't have those files.
Here is a more modern map
As you can see the fingers point to the 3rd line and the 4th line and the fingers lined up with 34th ave.
how you could possibly translate that as 4 and 4 is beyond me...
34th ave runs straight from golden gate park to lincoln park
Exactly following the methodology of chicago & cleveland, I dont need to go over that again it's in the forums
once you're at the treasure ground
visual site confirmers are :
among others...
The verse fits The Betsy Ross Flagpole was the tallest flagpole on the west coast- definitely a Giant Pole.
Sadly since then the dirt parkinglot was paved and renovated.
you can see there is now a flowerbed, sidewalk and statue there
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I sincerely doubt that this verse image combination is formulated differently than the two found casques.
Unknown:
Especially when there exists a solution for SF that exactly matches the methodology used in those.
Unknown:
and this is how SF works, with the unfortunate realization the casque is no longer accessible.
I could not agree more.
I agree with this as well.
On this, we will have to agree to disagree.
Oregonian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Oregonian.... I would also ask that you not include any PDF copies of the book on the wiki, regardless of their completeness. The documents were created illegally and the person who made them is not too keen on there dispersion. Especially when they are PDFs created with pirated Adobe software, and the data on the files allows for the creator to be identified. The creator might also have intended the file(s) to be used by those in a small group that already owned the book, and not the general public.
The PDF on the wiki was put up there by White Rabbit in October of 2013. What makes you think it was done with "pirated Adobe software"? I haven't examined the file very closely, but it looks to me like it was just produced with an ordinary scanner and some OCR software and then saved as a PDF.
I don't know enough about publishing laws to know whether the PDF is illegal, so I'll just have to rely on common sense here. When
The Secret
was out-of-print and unavailable, it made sense to have the text available on the wiki as a PDF. No copies of the book were being sold by the publisher, and therefore no one involved in the book was losing any royalties when people got the book in other ways. But now an electronic version of
The Secret
is being sold through Amazon's Kindle eBooks (for $19!) and the profits are (presumably) going to some of the original authors. So now it does seem unfair to make a PDF of the book available on the wiki for free. So, as of this morning, I have removed the link.
If White Rabbit or anyone else wants to weigh in, I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Hirudiniforme
Oregonian wrote::
I don't know enough about publishing laws to know whether the PDF is illegal, so I'll just have to rely on common sense here. When
The Secret
was out-of-print and unavailable, it made sense to have the text available on the wiki as a PDF.
Law and common sense do not work hand-in-hand. Ignorance of the law is no defense. Apply your same rationale to digging... "But officer, I didn't know enough about city ordinance to know that I couldn't dig here. I thought since nobody was around, it was OK."
Derp.
Oregonian
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Law and common sense do not work hand-in-hand. Ignorance of the law is no defense.
As I said above, I'm not the person who created the PDF or posted it on the wiki, so I doubt I'm in much legal jeopardy from whoever bought the intellectual property rights of Byron Preiss Visual Publications and ibooks Inc. Common sense and courtesy are the guidelines in this situation, and I've removed the link from the main page on the wiki. (Thank you for pointing out the problem.) I think we should probably go further and take the PDF completely off the wiki, but I'd like to give White Rabbit a chance to weigh in before we do that.
Most of the text of the book still seems to be available online in other places, including
here on the Q4T website
, but there's nothing I can do about that. I can take the links to those sources off the front page of the wiki, but I can't take down the content and people will still be able to find it in seconds using a Google search.
erexere
I think you're missing the point.I think we're wondering where you draw the line between fair use in a public forum and what your establishing as a more self serving benefit from others IP. Who controls the secretWiki? Whats its purpose if at this point it becomes selective over its contributers?
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
On this, we will have to agree to disagree.
Nope, we can agree on this as well,
I realized last night, I missed something. Time to break out my shovel!
erexere
maltedfalcon wrote::
Nope, we can agree on this as well,
I realized last night, I missed something. Time to break out my shovel!
WhiteRabbit
I added the PDF version of the book to the wiki, but I didn't create it. So if someone would prefer it taken down, then best take it down.
(I kind of assumed the Kindle version was a ripoff. I don't know whether it's based on the Q4T version as I haven't downloaded it, but since the blurb they've used on the Amazon page was nicked from the summary Forest wrote for the wiki, it seems quite likely. The person to ask would be John Colby of
Brick Tower Press
, who owns the rights.)
maltedfalcon
Oregonian wrote::
so I doubt I'm in much legal jeopardy from whoever bought the intellectual property rights of Byron Preiss Visual Publications and ibooks Inc.
Better check your facts, as administrator of the wiki, you have taken on responsiblity for the content. if copyrighted material is used and you allow it to stay, the law comes down on you.
WhiteRabbit
To be fair, MF, I think newcomers to the book who discover the wiki are now more likely to become engaged in the puzzle and subsequently discover your theories on it via Q4T, than they would have before.
Re: copyright, if anyone cared I think they would have said so by now. If they do complain, all you have to do is take the stuff down. No-one's doing time for posting up a few jpegs.
Maybe we could have some kind of requests thread here where people could discuss proposed changes. But it seems a little harsh to start complaining about the wiki now when it's been allowed to drift into dereliction for years.
As for you erexere, you don't care, you've got an urbansmurfing wiki of your own!
maltedfalcon
WhiteRabbit wrote::
To be fair, MF, I think newcomers to the book who discover the wiki are now more likely to become engaged in the puzzle and subsequently discover your theories on it via Q4T, than they would have before.
As for copyright, if anyone cared I think they would have complained by now. If they do complain, all you have to do is take the stuff down. No-one's doing time for posting up a few jpegs.
Maybe we could have some kind of requests thread here where people could discuss proposed changes. But it seems a bit unfair to start complaining about the wiki now when it's been allowed to drift into dereliction for years.
Well you are correct about that! But my complaints wern't about that, my complaints were I updated the wiki with facts about previous hunts, and my changes were removed because they didn't fit the new admins theories. Neither here nor there, now I will stick to updating on Q4T
BP magnanimously allowed the wiki and pages like it to stay up. There are new owners though and they paid for the rights. Just because they haven't complained yet doesn't mean they won't. One of the requirements for keeping a copyright is actively defending it.
while Q4t is a reference site, with much more information then just The Secret, that means, it falls under the fair use clause of copyright law, the majority of images and text on the wiki is straight out of the book. Its a derivative work dedicated only to the secret book , If the owners ever wanted they could contact pbworks and the whole site would disappear overnight.
If the documentary stirs up enough interest that could happen. So new interest comes with a mixed blessing.
maltedfalcon
[quote="erexere"
[/quote]
Actually now that I think about it was you who drew my attention to this feature and I disregarded it. I will pm you.
maltedfalcon
I'm seriously dense...
There are so many objects of Twains attention. how to choose which one?
The object of twains attention is the one that shows prominently in the image. duh!
erexere
table rose pocket watch?
Fortune telling?
Mysticism?
erexere
ah, I see now, heavy news...very heavy.
Do giants dream of reading giant Kindles?
erexere
I'm basically chewing on the idea that Twain's object is the newspaper column. The focus is on a column, similar to how Cleveland focus' on columns.
I use to think the PEN was the answer to that little riddle. I dropped that use a map to make a line idea to focus more on a BENCH as the place where a justice would sit and issue a sentence in a criminal case, and so I thought as a writer, Twain's object would be his sentence, still pretty close to the pen idea, which is still a bit abstract. A column on the other hand may be a more accessible idea.
Architecture can be so interesting.
maltedfalcon
Totally off topic,
Twain camped near lake tahoe once and in his writings he mentions playing cards while sitting on top of a big flat rock on the waters edge.
This year somebody figured out where his camp was and found the rock.
Todo list: go play cards on that rock.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Nope, we can agree on this as well,I realized last night, I missed something.
It wasn't by any chance the fact that the large, accurately scaled map of GGP in the center of the image could indicate the possibility that the treasure might, say, actually be in GGP?
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
It wasn't by any chance the fact that the large, accurately scaled map of GGP in the center of the image could indicate the possibility that the treasure might, say, actually be in GGP?
nope it wasn't that - I explored and dug my way through GGpark from 2000-2008
The first time I opened the book I looked at verse 12, I was living in the washington DC area. so it was obvious, verse 12 mentioning Congress, and L Sits and over his shoulder... Well it was obvious their was a casque in washington dc.
I spent way too much time looking - Actually probably was still looking there long after the chicago casque had been found, but had no way of knowing that at the time.
Anyway I learned from that if BP puts something obvious in front of you, its a red herring. He seemed to really enjoy those...
erexere
Those Fair Folk don't play fair.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Well it was obvious their was a casque in washington dc.
Unknown:
Anyway I learned from that if BP puts something obvious in front of you, its a red herring.
Obvious, until you came to the realization than not a single one of the images even remotely suggests Washington DC, I hope. Which is essential knowledge that we all have now. The verses are full of nonsense. The images, not so much.
Often true, but only for the verse. But Palencar had to play by a different set of rules. So if there is something obvious in the image, we ignore it at our own peril. That's the way the Chicago image works (fencepost-exactly rendered), that's the way the Cleveland image works (wall-exactly rendered), and I'd like to believe that that's the way the next solve will work.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Often true, but only for the verse. But Palencar had to play by a different set of rules. So if there is something obvious in the image, we ignore it at our own peril. That's the way the Chicago image works (fencepost-exactly rendered), that's the way the Cleveland image works (wall-exactly rendered), and I'd like to believe that that's the way the next solve will work.
Yes the fencepost was exactly rendered, that was a site confirmer something you can see from the casque burial site.
but each image has an iconic image that is the start of the quest. the Chicago Water tower, or the Cleveland Transit tower, neither near the actual casque site.
GGpark is the San Francisco image iconic
I too believe it will work out exactly like the others. I'm sure that there is a common methodology for each casque
WhiteRabbit
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Often true, but only for the verse. But Palencar had to play by a different set of rules. So if there is something obvious in the image, we ignore it at our own peril.
There's no difference between BP using red herrings in the verse and sending JJP pics of red herrings for the images. I think both elements have misdirection.
Oregonian
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I kind of assumed the Kindle version was a ripoff. I don't know whether it's based on the Q4T version as I haven't downloaded it, but since the blurb they've used on the Amazon page was nicked from the summary Forest wrote for the wiki, it seems quite likely.
That's been my suspicion, too. But if the Amazon version is pirated, why isn't the legal owner of the copyright doing something about it? Hard to understand.
erexere
Back on topic,
From far Cathay, the dragon's
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon.
The two things in the image that sync with this line from the LotJ are the many moon's in the sky and the mirrored "hG". I think it's fair to assess those two things as "something multiple" and the elemental name for Mercury. My take on this is in knowing that pure (chaste/perfect) silver is 99.9% or more commonly stamped .999 or just 999. I wonder if that's a hint for Hell, given that it's vertical flipping results in "666". Hell, the underworld, ruled by Hades or Pluto connects to the god Mercury as he is the guide that lead souls to Pluto's domain.
I think BP was most clever and precise in his writing of the LotJ and hoped it would inspire us casque seekers to approach the respective puzzles in a sensible way. We know the pearl is the focus of Image 1. We then look for something that connects Hell to a particular location.
I'm fully committed to the belief that this has to do with this giant door:
hxxp://www.rodinmuseum.org/collections/ ... eme/4.html
tjgrey
maltedfalcon wrote::
Yes the fencepost was exactly rendered, that was a site confirmer something you can see from the casque burial site.
but each image has an iconic image that is the start of the quest. the Chicago Water tower, or the Cleveland Transit tower, neither near the actual casque site.
GGpark is the San Francisco image iconic
I too believe it will work out exactly like the others. I'm sure that there is a common methodology for each casque
Interesting. I never considered GGP as being the city's image.
So, for consistency, each image should have:
-a set (partial or full) of coordinates
-an image to tie to a city
-an image of something (presumably random) that you would see when you are standing at the dig spot
Assuming that GGP is the city's image, IMO, we still have the stonewall door/gate and the table leg that should match up to something. Agreed?
Assuming further, if the door/gate is to be represented at the Legion of Honor (which I like all of the visuals here), where is the table leg?
WhiteRabbit
tjgrey wrote::
So, for consistency, each image should have:
-a set (partial or full) of coordinates
There are several images where no obvious coords have been found - Milwaukee, St Augustine, Roanoke...I'm dubious about any attempts to reduce these puzzles to a predictable system. There are some repeating elements, is all.
maltedfalcon
[quote="tjgrey"
Interesting. I never considered GGP as being the city's image. [/quote]
Just curious, have you read the forums, because we've gone over this stuff again and again.
we have solid connections for all that.
Monday, I am contacting the powers that be and getting permission to dig (again)
tjgrey
maltedfalcon wrote::
[quote="tjgrey"
Interesting. I never considered GGP as being the city's image.
Just curious, have you read the forums, because we've gone over this stuff again and again.
we have solid connections for all that.
Monday, I am contacting the powers that be and getting permission to dig (again)[/quote]
Yes. I do not remember. Unless you didn't want to point things out again (which I would understand as of lately), was why I was asking again.
maltedfalcon
oh no totally sorry! I just assume everybody is on the page and start yammering!
Iconic image is a theory I came up with in August 2008 when my Golden gate park dig around the totem pole base in GGPark came up with nothing
Search iconic image and look at the the Chicago Treasure thread in august 2008
erexere
The iconic image theory is a very good way to look at these. It's unfortunate it took so many years for you or anyone else to get comfortable enough with the puzzles to see that basic attribute.
It's clear that these puzzles would be most impossible if BP had just went to great lengths to find the most obscure things. He greatly increased the chances by cleverly including a major visual hint in each image. It's from there that things become increasingly difficult and obscure, but at least he gives us a very good place to begin our search.
tjgrey
maltedfalcon wrote::
oh no totally sorry! I just assume everybody is on the page and start yammering!
Iconic image is a theory I came up with in August 2008 when my Golden gate park dig around the totem pole base in GGPark came up with nothing
Search iconic image and look at the the Chicago Treasure thread in august 2008
No worries-I remember reading that thread but I'm going back through it.
Zepho
maltedfalcon wrote::
34th ave runs straight from golden gate park to lincoln park
The Western terminus of the Lincoln highway is at the Legion of Honor and this is a picture of one of the highway markers. Unfortunately the current marker at the Legion of Honor is a replica put up in 2002 and I'm not sure if there was one at that site in the 80s. The book The Lincoln Highway: Main street across America published in 1988 says there was "a small monument" at the site of the terminus but doesn't go into any more specifics.
I'm not sure it's a very good match myself, but it's the right colour and pointing in the same direction at least
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
There's no difference between BP using red herrings in the verse and sending JJP pics of red herrings for the images. I think both elements have misdirection.
True, but more likely in the verses since Preiss worked on them alone, after he had buried the casques and in at least one case, after he had the painting from Palencar. He was probably walking the line between giving too much additional information (which would have made them too easy to solve), and not enough (which would have made things much more difficult). After the Cleveland image was completed (probably the first IMO), he probably told Palencar to be a little more creative in the way he rendered the treasure ground, but that (also in my opinion) was probably the extent of the misdirection in the images. In short, I believe the purpose of the images are twofold: to make the mental light bulbs go off as you get closer and closer to the treasure ground, and to confirm in a very precise way, exactly where you are supposed to dig. Any superfluous information in the image was probably a byproduct of Palencar trying to make an interesting picture.
Coke/Pepsi. Paper/plastic. Sharks/Jets. Imagers/Versers. Y'all know where I stand on at least one of these.
shinsa
Hey all,
New here.
Any idea why our image has a complete artist signature on it and the rest are either only initialed or have no visible artist identifer?
shinsa
I am convinced the shapes are 3441 because of the Gh reflection. I think they are part of the coordinates. 34.41" would be the last for of the longitude at the west end of the park. which incidentally is where those shapes are located on dragon map. He would have been using a quad map for this so some slight inaccuracy could be expected. 122 degrees 30'34.41"
thats my hypothesis anyways.
Xieish
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
True, but more likely in the verses since Preiss worked on them alone, after he had buried the casques and in at least one case, after he had the painting from Palencar. He was probably walking the line between giving too much additional information (which would have made them too easy to solve), and not enough (which would have made things much more difficult). After the Cleveland image was completed (probably the first IMO), he probably told Palencar to be a little more creative in the way he rendered the treasure ground, but that (also in my opinion) was probably the extent of the misdirection in the images. In short, I believe the purpose of the images are twofold: to make the mental light bulbs go off as you get closer and closer to the treasure ground, and to confirm in a very precise way, exactly where you are supposed to dig. Any superfluous information in the image was probably a byproduct of Palencar trying to make an interesting picture.
Coke/Pepsi. Paper/plastic. Sharks/Jets. Imagers/Versers. Y'all know where I stand on at least one of these.
This really belongs more in the method thread, but I really think it'd be helpful to try and break down the Cleveland solve (and Chicago, but more has changed) and attempt to figure out how the image leads to a dig spot. Egbert has mentioned on numerous occasions that the counting steps don't really work out, unless you're facing the front of the wall (and the casque was buried in the rear). Chicago they had the right spot and still couldn't find the casque (and that's with the trees still there to count). It leads me to believe there's something missing that would show you exactly where to dig when you're standing at the site.
It's possible that the riddles are different - Cleveland's is the only one that even seems to lead to a semi-precise dig spot, for for example the verse often associated with #12 ("Gaze north toward the Isle of B") does not culminate with a 1' x 1' square to stick a shovel in the ground, and we know precision is key.
I know people have been to both cities since, but has anyone ever tried to show up and say "OK, how do we get HERE from these clues"? Has anyone tried to figure out how Chicago was supposed to be found without Preiss' help? Angles? Some sort of map? Anything?
Like even in four21's Boston theory, you can follow everything to the letter and it still leaves you with a ton of places to actually stick your shovel, all of which could make sense. There has to be something else, the answer can't be to just brute force every puzzle and dig a bunch of holes.
dietrologia
Sorry if this has been posited before, but since the Lincoln Higway and 34th Ave intersect right in front of the Legion of Honor, think of all the visual images that line up at that spot and how they fit well with Verse 7.
I won't get into the ones that have already been discussed recently -- and there are a lot -- but how about this?
"Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention"
There is a scuplture of Joan of Arc astride a horse galloping ("running") north. The sculpture is on the left side of the entrance and has been there for many decades. You can see it very plainly in front of you at that spot. Okay, Joan of Arc, so what?
Mark Twain wrote a book about Joan of Arc. You can purchase a copy here:
hxxp://www.amazon.com/Personal-Recollec ... oan+of+arc
Here's what Twain himself said of his book:
I like Joan of Arc best of all my books; and it is the best; I know it perfectly well. And besides, it furnished me seven times the pleasure afforded me by any of the others; twelve years of preparation, and two years of writing. The others needed no preparation and got none. --Mark Twain
I have an email in with the Legion of Honor about the two lions that have stood guard at the entrance since... well, forever. I asked if they had any particular names or titles. Perhaps something that was once covered in a visitor's brochure, but is no longer common knowledge. If I hear back that they're called "Education" and "Justice", or something very similar... wow.
I may drop by this weekend just to take some photos of all that can be seen from that spot.
maltedfalcon
dietrologia wrote::
Sorry if this has been posited before, but since the Lincoln Higway and 34th Ave intersect right in front of the Legion of Honor, think of all the visual images that line up at that spot and how they fit well with Verse 7.
I won't get into the ones that have already been discussed recently -- and there are a lot -- but how about this?
"Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention"
There is a scuplture of Joan of Arc astride a horse galloping ("running") north. The sculpture is on the left side of the entrance and has been there for many decades. You can see it very plainly in front of you at that spot. Okay, Joan of Arc, so what?
Mark Twain wrote a book about Joan of Arc. You can purchase a copy here:
hxxp://www.amazon.com/Personal-Recollec ... oan+of+arc
Here's what Twain himself said of his book:
I like Joan of Arc best of all my books; and it is the best; I know it perfectly well. And besides, it furnished me seven times the pleasure afforded me by any of the others; twelve years of preparation, and two years of writing. The others needed no preparation and got none. --Mark Twain
I have an email in with the Legion of Honor about the two lions that have stood guard at the entrance since... well, forever. I asked if they had any particular names or titles. Perhaps something that was once covered in a visitor's brochure, but is no longer common knowledge. If I hear back that they're called "Education" and "Justice", or something very similar... wow.
I may drop by this weekend just to take some photos of all that can be seen from that spot.
maltedfalcon
Just re-applied for permission to dig at Lincoln park.
I will keep you all posted on the progress.
due to some constraints at the park, I probably won't be able to dig until January.
dietrologia
maltedfalcon wrote::
Just re-applied for permission to dig at Lincoln park.
I will keep you all posted on the progress.
due to some constraints at the park, I probably won't be able to dig until January.
Good luck. I seem to recall you having dug in this area previously, so I'm glad that park officials are open to this -- that's one less headache.
In my mind, I would want to try in two spots just below the parking lot perimeter:
1) along the line formed by Joan of Arc and Betsy Ross Flagpole
2) in the same northern angle from the Flagpole that Joan of Arc is traveling.
I wish you all the best!
maltedfalcon
dietrologia wrote::
Good luck. I seem to recall you having dug in this area previously, so I'm glad that park officials are open to this -- that's one less headache.
In my mind, I would want to try in two spots just below the parking lot perimeter:
1) along the line formed by Joan of Arc and Betsy Ross Flagpole
2) in the same northern angle from the Flagpole that Joan of Arc is traveling.
I wish you all the best!
with permission, I have actually dug in this are 3 times, and have two more spots to check
in between my digs someone else dug and left a mess, I almost got in trouble for it. It makes it more difficult to get permission and now they are actively watching for diggers. There is a 24 hour guard right next to the area at one of the memorials, and they have instructed him to call in suspicious behavior. before it was just me and the groundskeeper, now it has to be authorized from higher up. it takes a little longer.
dietrologia
I just received a reply from the Legion of Honor. They were not aware of any names given to the two lions out front.
maltedfalcon
dietrologia wrote::
I just received a reply from the Legion of Honor. They were not aware of any names given to the two lions out front.
I checked that a while back
and I also checked on the two statues.
just in case the plaques said something similar.
no luck
dietrologia
maltedfalcon wrote::
I checked that a while back
and I also checked on the two statues.
just in case the plaques said something similar.
no luck
Yeah, this is all low-hanging fruit, I guess. Sorry to be treading over old ground.
drunknerds
Hey all, new here, but I come from Something Awful where there are a lot of similar theories and a crazy huge thread.
I agree that the GGP map is the iconic image. For me, however, the iconic image was the representation of the Huntington falls. I first saw the picture a few years ago, and I thought "Hey, those rocks look a ton like the Huntington Falls. Nah, it's just an inkblot and I'm seeing what I want to see." It wasn't until today that I realized I should've given more credit to what I saw. San Francisco native by the way, although I now live 500 miles south in Pasadena
I don't think this is one of those "stand where you can see all the landmarks" puzzle. Not that anyone suggested it was, but its just impossible to see anything in GGP with all the growth, unless you're on top of Strawberry hill. So we need to find something to give us specifics. So far, that has been in the image & the verse (Seek the columns for the search + the picture of the wall, Fence and Fixture + the picture of the post.) So, I'd like to explore what elements of the picture can also be found in the verse, and vice-versa. Not that EVERY picture has the same rules, but so far two have had them and they've BOTH been the final piece to the location, so that's what I'm working on.
So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon.
Glad to be here, thanks for this site.
erexere
drunknerds wrote::
So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon.
Glad to be here, thanks for this site.
Welcome drunk. The only thing I see linkable between verse and image is the gate in the cliffs of the image and the mention of a stonewall's door in the verse. If you want a systematic sort of indicator for how to connect the images to some cultural theme, then read the Litany of the Jewels. I don't think there's much to go on when it comes to looking for a solid connection.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
So... can anyone relate anything in verse 7 to the picture? That's what I've been doing this afternoon.
yes, the object of twain's attention features prominently in the image.
more tomorrow...
WhiteRabbit
drunknerds wrote::
(Seek the columns for the search + the picture of the wall, Fence and Fixture + the picture of the post.) So, I'd like to explore what elements of the picture can also be found in the verse, and vice-versa. Not that EVERY picture has the same rules, but so far two have had them and they've BOTH been the final piece to the location.
Unknown:
they've both been the final piece to the location
Good point. Welcome to the forum.
I wondered if the grass in Image 6 represented the 'green picket fence'. (Not necessarily this one.) Maybe that could fit the pattern. More abstract though. I guess the 'tall tree' would be more obvious.
I'm not sure how close the columns at the entrance to the Greek Garden were to the planter where the casque was buried. Were they both visible from the same spot...? Is this the planter between them, or something else...?
Merlot Brougham
maltedfalcon wrote::
yes, the object of twain's attention features prominently in the image.
more tomorrow...
Did the "more tomorrow" happen yet?
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Did the "more tomorrow" happen yet?
more importantly, the giant pole I was working off didn't exist in 1981 so just ignore my comment.
erexere
Which pole is that?
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Which pole is that?
The Betsy Ross Memorial Flagpole was taken down in 1972
erexere
Oh? I thought we had some indication from aerial imagery that there was a pole and shadow of what looks like a flag. It was kinda blurry so I dont know for sure.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Oh? I thought we had some indication from aerial imagery that there was a pole and shadow of what looks like a flag. It was kinda blurry so I dont know for sure.
I was told by groundskeepers, the remembered it was removed in 1992 when they added the statue garden
but I spoke with the local museum which had pictures of the parking lot in the late 70's sans pole.
pictures trump memories...
erexere
By chance was it brought down temporarily for resto work or inspection after some major wind storm or for earthquake readiness?
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
By chance was it brought down temporarily for resto work or inspection after some major wind storm or for earthquake readiness?
Sadly no the pole was removed as were all the shrubs around the fountain and then the parkinglot was paved.
erexere
Such unsettling news, thanks for your hard work maltedfalcon.
WhiteRabbit
I was thinking about that "court" idea for the "scene where law defended" in terms of Golden Gate Park, which has courts of various kinds, including tennis courts.
"H" - eighth letter in the dragon's tail...? Bit of a stretch, but that's where the courts are.
The nearby Conservatory of Flowers has a white greenhouse which could pass for the "white house".
So many curious and interesting features tucked away in this park, like the old "Horseshoe Pits" in that corner.
hxxp://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ho ... -park.html
hxxp://www.atlasobscura.com/places/gold ... shoe-pitch
(Are horseshoes mentioned in the back of the book by any chance...?)
Between two arms extended
Embedded in the sand
WhiteRabbit
Chinese
years of the dragon
in Golden Gate Park...
1916
Cervantes
1928
Shakespeare (inc rose poem)
1940
Fuschia Dell
...1952, 1964...
1976
Teng-Hui Lee visits San Fransisco and announces that they intend to bestow a gift from China...the temple.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o2o ... le&f=false
(This one presumably?)
WhiteRabbit
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
"Remorse, or
Sphinx Embedded in the Sand
" is a Dali painting.
With his books like "Imagine a Day", Preiss was surely a Dali fan. Maybe he was one of the inspirations for this image.
Sphinxes in Golden Gate Park:
Perhaps buried by a palm between these two, with "arms extended".
"Seen here by eyes of old" fits. The Sphinx is also described as "cruel". (The "cruel and bold" line isn't from Treasure Island.)
Wonder if "Below the bar that binds" is just a repetition of "Embedded in the sand", the bar that binds being a sandbar. GGP was carved out of sand dunes.
I think the verse could work, though a visual confirmer would be good.
Dunno if there's a white house nearby. Roosevelt was called The Sphinx.
erexere
The illustration might be conveying through symbols that its at a place where you stand up to watch something.
Mother of Pirates
I've read all 66 pages of posts. I know that Apollo 11 was mentioned for the 11 moons but did anyone ever tie in the Apollo 11 and SF Giants Baseball theory about Gaylord Perry #36.
hxxp://www.chicagonow.com/my-sports-com ... -home-run/
Giant pole, Giant step, To the place, The casque is kept. - Could mean Candlestick Park which is where the Giants played and was sometimes called the North Pole due to cold temps or the Stick. Giant step could refer to the moon landing. On the same day that Apollo 11 landed on the moon Giants player (pitcher) Gaylord Perry (jersey #36) hit a homerun which was notable as he was a great pitcher but not a very good hitter and it was quoted as saying that "They'll Land on the Moon Before Gaylord Perry Hits a Home Run" ... which he did that day after the moon landing. Sunday, July 20, 1969. In the Candlestick Park area there is a street called Key Ave. This could be the location of the Casque, located just a step away from a large pole. Bayview Park is up that way off Key Ave which people call a secret hidden gem of a park. The primary trail is a paved road that loops through the park, beginning and ending at the eastern end of Key Avenue. Remnants of stairs and retaining walls built by the Works Progress Administration during the Depression can still be seen along the roadway. Potentially the casque could be buried next to the old stairs as they are giant steps. The stairs are made of stones and twist and turn like a dragon. There is a very old antenna up that way which was one of the first major antennas in the SF area. It's owner is Ihr Educational Broadcasting. Part of the "Education" for all to see. I think you could see the old former SF County Jail #3 San Bruno which was opened in 1934 to 2006 and demolished in 2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Franc ... unty_Jails
Maybe this would be the Justice for all to see from the park vantage point.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... _Francisco
) There is also a rock formation called Indian Head Rock and a 1934 Art Deco radio tower building designed by Julia Morgan and built by the William Randolph Hearst Company
hxxp://bayarearadio.org/schneider/kya_site.shtml
. The building has the same lines as the top of the womans dress as well as what look like similar geometric shapes in the same line of the G and H. The building now looks like this and is behind fences with razor/barb wire. When I went to research the building I found out Alcatraz opened in 1934. Which led me to research other 1934 stuff.
hxxp://www.timelines.ws/cities/SF_C_1930_1959.HTML
From the loop of Bayview you can see everything. It's a 360 degree view of SF. You can spy Sutro Tower, the new (and old) Bay Bridge, hwy 101 ... and of course hear sounds from the sky (highway traffic sounds like it is in the sky as well as the airplane traffic above). What is notable about Julia Morgan is that she was quite awesome.
hxxp://www.sfcityguides.org/public_guid ... &topic=San
She was the architect for Hearst Castle and Hearst and Twain were reportedly very good friends. Although I doubt that is the object of Twains attention. These are my thoughts. I would love to hear feedback.
Jambone
I was in San Fran last month for work, but found a little time to do some sightseeing. I didn't have The Secret on my mind at all. We took the Powell Street cable car up to Fisherman's Wharf, and as we neared the wharf, I saw a portion of the big Ghirardelli Square sign from the back (and to the side). All I could see was the "Gh" and maybe the "i" due to other buildings and trees, and it instantly reminded me of this image. It happened so fast, but it struck me that the "G" and "h" in this image are also reversed, and maybe this is why. One of the SF photos that Preiss gave JJP from which to paint the picture must have been taken from a point south of Ghirardelli Square. Here's about the only picture I can find from behind the sign, but it has fewer obstructions.
Merlot Brougham
Jambone wrote::
I was in San Fran last month for work, but found a little time to do some sightseeing. I didn't have The Secret on my mind at all. We took the Powell Street cable car up to Fisherman's Wharf, and as we neared the wharf, I saw a portion of the big Ghirardelli Square sign from the back (and to the side). All I could see was the "Gh" and maybe the "i" due to other buildings and trees, and it instantly reminded me of this image. It happened so fast, but it struck me that the "G" and "h" in this image are also reversed, and maybe this is why. One of the SF photos that Preiss gave JJP from which to paint the picture must have been taken from a point south of Ghirardelli Square. Here's about the only picture I can find from behind the sign, but it has fewer obstructions.
Agreed completely. I also think the Ghirardelli sign is fundamental in linking the image to verse 7 with "At stone wall's door The air smells sweet". Its quite possibly giving you a starting point not unlike the three stories of mitchell.
I think the view from atop the hill is to the reversed GH is important
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
This is the image 2 thread so I wont discuss the frustration involved in the Image 1 "Gh" being the Ghirardelli building.
Occam's Razor: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
In 1980 the Golden Gate Park Tourist map had the Great highway labeled using the font that was identical to these letters.
when you reversed the dress it superimposed directly over the park as outlined on the map and the G and H sat on the Great Highway part of the map, also the H in Highway was lower case.
Since the G and the H are on the great highway and the map lines up with the tourist map exactly.
Ghirardelli square probably has nothing to do with this hunt.
Jambone
Edit: Never mind, I see all this was discussed 7-8 years ago.
Merlot Brougham
maltedfalcon wrote::
I was aware of the Great Highway theory but not about the tourist map. Are there any existing images of said map?
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Are there any existing images of said map?
I am sure there are, unfortunately not online,
The forum we used before Quest4treasure had the images but I cant even remember the name of that forum, heck it might have been geocities.
my bet would be the SF library has a copy of it somewhere in their archives. If I was worried about it I would look there.
Other than that I am not sure where you would look, anything online now is pretty much current and not the map I am talking about.
The other interesting part of the map is that the lower half of North lake, matched the weird blue shape to the left of the ladies head.
Merlot Brougham
maltedfalcon wrote::
I am sure there are, unfortunately not online,
The forum we used before Quest4treasure had the images but I cant even remember the name of that forum, heck it might have been geocities.
my bet would be the SF library has a copy of it somewhere in their archives. If I was worried about it I would look there.
Other than that I am not sure where you would look, anything online now is pretty much current and not the map I am talking about.
The other interesting part of the map is that the lower half of North lake, matched the weird blue shape to the left of the ladies head.
Thanks for the info on that.
erexere
Saw this familiar scene when
i
looked up Chastity on Wikipedia while thinking about the LotJ reference to the chaste pearl.
erexere
Saw this familiar scene when i looked up Chastity on Wikipedia while thinking about the LotJ reference to the chaste pearl.
Frisco
Not to feed your fire here, but that reminded me
of
Benjamin Franklin's
13 Virtues
, and there are 13 nations
of
Fair People. Also Aristotle's 12 Virtues, but chastity didn't make his list.
And yet Benny was the one who got syphilis from some French chick.
Frisco
Not to feed your fire here, but that reminded me of Benjamin Franklin's
13 Virtues
, and there are 13 nations of Fair People. Also Aristotle's 12 Virtues, but chastity didn't make his list.
And yet Benny was the one who got syphilis from some French chick.
erexere
Thanks for sharing the Franklin information.
Here's the side by side of my earlier post,
erexere
Thanks for sharing the Franklin information.
Here's the side by side
of
my earlier post,
Ashsimmonds
erexere wrote::
Thanks for sharing the Franklin information.
Here's the side by side
of
my earlier post,
That pictures very interesting. Have you found any connections to the SF area?
Only connection
I
can find which is very obscure is that Melming was a citizen
of
Bruges, Belgium. MH De Youngs parents were Dutch and French which is on the northern and southern borders
of
Belgium. So very weak connection.
Couldn't find any information if the painting was ever displayed in SF, let alone the US.
Ashsimmonds
erexere wrote::
Thanks for sharing the Franklin information.
Here's the side by side of my earlier post,
That pictures very interesting. Have you found any connections to the SF area?
Only connection I can find which is very obscure is that Melming was a citizen of Bruges, Belgium. MH De Youngs parents were Dutch and French which is on the northern and southern borders of Belgium. So very weak connection.
Couldn't find any information if the painting was ever displayed in SF, let alone the US.
erexere
The only connection I am suggesting is that the painting could be something discovered in an art, history or religious studies book and serves as a template for the subject of purity or moral conduct. It isnt required that we find find this painting, but it does appeal to the idea that some deeper thematic connections are involved.
The Litany of the Jewels poem gives us the word "chaste' for the pearl puzzle. I have a theory that each couplet in the lirany contains an important clue or insight on how to approach the solutions. Thinking about moral conduct may have an implications that suit using Alcatraz as the consequence for failing in these morals. Or the analagy of Heavan and Hell might be suitable to incorporating August Rodin's works at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. I'm referring to the Gates of Hell, which incorporate the Three Shades and Thinker. Also, the air smells sweet could be a good example of a temptation.
erexere
The only connection
I
am suggesting is that the painting could be something discovered in an art, history or religious studies book and serves as a template for the subject
of
purity or moral conduct. It isnt required that we find find this painting, but it does appeal to the idea that some deeper thematic connections are involved.
The Litany
of
the Jewels poem gives us the word "chaste' for the pearl puzzle.
I
have a theory that each couplet in the lirany contains an important clue or insight on how to approach the solutions. Thinking about moral conduct may have an implications that suit using Alcatraz as the consequence for failing in these morals. Or the analagy
of
Heavan and Hell might be suitable to incorporating August Rodin's works at the Palace
of
the Legion
of
Honor.
I
'm referring to the Gates
of
Hell, which incorporate the Three Shades and Thinker. Also, the air smells sweet could be a good example
of
a temptation.
Ashsimmonds
The "Fucanglong" dragon is the keeper of treasures, who creates volcanos "inferno?" When reporting to heaven. It's wingless yet can fly. (V5?)
hxxp://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/m/page/Fucanglong
Wikipedia also mentions the Fucanglong posseses a magic or presious pearl as his most important treasure. The pearl will usually be found around the dragons neck.
I would assume this has been mentioned before?
Ashsimmonds
The "Fucanglong" dragon is the keeper
of
treasures, who creates volcanos "inferno?" When reporting to heaven. It's wingless yet can fly. (V5?)
hxxp://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/m/page/Fucanglong
Wikipedia also mentions the Fucanglong posseses a magic or presious pearl as his most important treasure. The pearl will usually be found around the dragons neck.
I
would assume this has been mentioned before?
erexere
I
dont recall it being mentioned. The importance
of
the dragon to the puzzle idea is something that took me to some biblical interpretation tho.
I
'm thinking GoldenGate=Heaven, Dragon=Gate to Hell.
erexere
I dont recall it being mentioned. The importance of the dragon to the puzzle idea is something that took me to some biblical interpretation tho. I'm thinking GoldenGate=Heaven, Dragon=Gate to Hell.
Ashsimmonds
hxxp://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-m ... -francisco
I
love finding things like this.
Mark twain writing about his experience in the 1868 San Francisco earth quake, after that
of
1906. It's drawn to his attention that himself and others were not frightened by the experience. He does compare San Francisco to hell.
This was found after thinking
of
the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fire, being hellish. Was wondering if it perhaps had a starting point like pudding lane in London.
Ashsimmonds
hxxp://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-m ... -francisco
I love finding things like this.
Mark twain writing about his experience in the 1868 San Francisco earth quake, after that of 1906. It's drawn to his attention that himself and others were not frightened by the experience. He does compare San Francisco to hell.
This was found after thinking of the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fire, being hellish. Was wondering if it perhaps had a starting point like pudding lane in London.
maltedfalcon
Ashsimmonds wrote::
I would assume this has been mentioned before?
Actually I have never heard that link! good catch!
maltedfalcon
Ashsimmonds wrote::
I
would assume this has been mentioned before?
Actually
I
have never heard that link! good catch!
erexere
Using "chaste" as a hint about moral conduct, and the letters G and h as a hint to reverse the image but also to think
of
initials G and H, we have Gates
of
Heaven/Hell. Failed moral conduct = Prison/Alcatraz and the gate on the image in the background looks like the best choice for a prison motif. Successful or good conduct = Heaven or crossing the Golden Gate which looks like the symmetrical shape bound between teh letters G and h.
I
think these two points are linked to the map and result in fixing the orientation
of
the table top/watch/rose as a corresponding location on the map for Lands End and the Palace
of
the Legion
of
Honor.
erexere
Using "chaste" as a hint about moral conduct, and the letters G and h as a hint to reverse the image but also to think of initials G and H, we have Gates of Heaven/Hell. Failed moral conduct = Prison/Alcatraz and the gate on the image in the background looks like the best choice for a prison motif. Successful or good conduct = Heaven or crossing the Golden Gate which looks like the symmetrical shape bound between teh letters G and h. I think these two points are linked to the map and result in fixing the orientation of the table top/watch/rose as a corresponding location on the map for Lands End and the Palace of the Legion of Honor.
erexere
The hands pointing to a 3 and a 4 have been suggested as a street number hint since the Palace
of
the Legion
of
Honor and Golden Gate Park share 34th street.
I
noticed that Dante's Inferno, the inspiration for Rodin's Gates
of
Hell sculpture, is divided up into 34 Cantos. In the fjnal Cantos, Dante passes into the 9th Circle
of
Hell which is held up, not by columns but by Giants themselves.
I
wonder if Giant Pole / Giant Step ties into the numbers 31-34 or the 8th-9th circle somehow. Like near the 9th hole on the golf course or 9th bench along the roadway overlooking the GGB.
erexere
The hands pointing to a 3 and a 4 have been suggested as a street number hint since the Palace of the Legion of Honor and Golden Gate Park share 34th street.
I noticed that Dante's Inferno, the inspiration for Rodin's Gates of Hell sculpture, is divided up into 34 Cantos. In the fjnal Cantos, Dante passes into the 9th Circle of Hell which is held up, not by columns but by Giants themselves. I wonder if Giant Pole / Giant Step ties into the numbers 31-34 or the 8th-9th circle somehow. Like near the 9th hole on the golf course or 9th bench along the roadway overlooking the GGB.
Toasty
I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California.
Toasty
I
always thought the hands and arms create the outline
of
the state
of
California.
maltedfalcon
Toasty wrote::
I always thought the hands and arms create the outline of the state of California.
Well spotted! espcially if the image is reversed!
maltedfalcon
Toasty wrote::
I
always thought the hands and arms create the outline
of
the state
of
California.
Well spotted! espcially if the image is reversed!
Frisco
The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity.
Frisco
The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--
I
thought this was generally accepted.
I
definitely see the similarity.
maltedfalcon
Frisco wrote::
The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--
I
thought this was generally accepted.
I
definitely see the similarity.
I
said well spotted, not it's new.
maltedfalcon
Frisco wrote::
The California outline was noted in posts here as far back as 2007--I thought this was generally accepted. I definitely see the similarity.
I said well spotted, not it's new.
erexere
An idea I'm using to guestimate a position based on recognizing the shape of the woman's head is very similar to the parking lot shape. I'm still interested in an area off the road that looks out over the Golden Gate Bridge. This is a rough comparison of a bench location to the cliff gate.
erexere
hxxp://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=342
Interestingly, a line drawn from this small single-door structure on the side of a cliff known as Diablo Point and c9nne ted to Alcatraz forms a nice intersection with the Golden Gate Bridge that looks like a Cross on the map.
Would it be acceptable to consider the name Diablo as a connection to a Dragon?
TexWriter
I have decided to go ahead and post what I think is a viable solution for the San Francisco puzzle. I am not going to be able to get out there any time soon so I am hoping maltedfalcon or someone else close will have a chance to check out my theory.
So here goes.
First, the poem.
At stone wall's door the air smells sweet.
- Because of its proximity to the Conservatory of Flowers area I think this refers to the Haight Street entrance that passes under Kezar Drive.
Not far away high posts are three.
- I have no idea what this might be without being in the area to check.
Education and Justice for all to see.
- Education = California Academy of Sciences Justice = tennis courts??
Sounds from the sky near Ace is high Running north, but first across
- Highway 1
In jewels direction is an object of Twain's attention.
- Fulton Street
Giant pole Giant step
- This is the key in my opinion. The trunk of a giant redwood is called a "giant pole". Find a particular redwood in the park and take a giant step from it towards Fulton Street.
To the place the casque is kept.
- Hopefully we are there.
Okay, the problem now is which redwood?
To the painting.
I am not going to rehash all of the obvious like the jewel, clock, rose, longitude and latitude, Golden Gate Park, etc.
I want to concentrate on a couple of things. First and foremost is the rocks. I do not believe they are rocks. The very first time I looked at this picture the first thing that came to my mind was the bark of redwood trees. Another important thing, I contacted the Sequoia National Park headquarters and asked this question - Does the bark pattern change significantly on a Redwood in 35 years time? Their answer was no. So I believe that concealed in those "rocks" may be the bark pattern of a tree in GGP. But which tree?
That brings me to my second item, her hands. I believe she is pointing out streets. In particular, because of the orientation of the park in the picture, 3rd and 4th streets. Across Fulton Street between 3rd and 4th street there is a single Redwood. Could this be the tree? I had planned on going and checking that out by using the painting and bark patterns but maybe someone that lives in the area can check it out and save me the drive from Houston. If you connect 3rd and 4th street on the north side of the park to 3rd and 4th streets on the south side of the park, maybe the tree is between those two lines. The National Aids Memorial Grove of redwoods is located within these lines. I did not see any redwoods bordering Lincoln Way using Google between 3rd and 4th streets but that area should not be overlooked if nothing turns up in the other areas. When looking at the trees on Google you have to differentiate between the redwoods and the giant sycamores that have a much smoother bark. The redwoods generally have flat tops.
So there you have my idea on the GGP solution and determining the exact location using references in the painting and poem. Good luck to all.
Jordan
TexWriter wrote::
I have decided to go ahead and post what I think is a viable solution for the San Francisco puzzle. I am not going to be able to get out there any time soon so I am hoping maltedfalcon or someone else close will have a chance to check out my theory.
Very interesting!
Although the National AIDS Memorial was conceived in 1988 (way after the the fact) and was renovated in September 1991. That would probably be bad as they tend to move and dig up stuff, who knows what was there before. Also, 3rd and 4th ave are not really near HW 1. The hints in the two found treasures all seem to have locations that are really close together, but this SF one has people all over GG park...
Jordan
TexWriter wrote::
That brings me to my second item, her hands. I believe she is pointing out streets. In particular, because of the orientation of the park in the picture, 3rd and 4th streets. Across Fulton Street between 3rd and 4th street there is a single Redwood. Could this be the tree? I had planned on going and checking that out by using the painting and bark patterns but maybe someone that lives in the area can check it out and save me the drive from Houston. If you connect 3rd and 4th street on the north side of the park to 3rd and 4th streets on the south side of the park, maybe the tree is between those two lines. The National Aids Memorial Grove of redwoods is located within these lines. I did not see any redwoods bordering Lincoln Way using Google between 3rd and 4th streets but that area should not be overlooked if nothing turns up in the other areas. When looking at the trees on Google you have to differentiate between the redwoods and the giant sycamores that have a much smoother bark. The redwoods generally have flat tops.
So there you have my idea on the GGP solution and determining the exact location using references in the painting and poem. Good luck to all.
I explored the area this morning. Most of the space between 3rd and 4th ave is heavy foliage. There are not that many place one can get to easily. I started on Fulton and walked all the way through to the AIDs memorial. Tomorrow I will start on the Lincoln side of the park and look around that half. I'm thinking this is not the place. The other clues in the painting seem to be clustered farther away.
maltedfalcon
FYI the area where the aids memorial is was all torn out and re-landscaped at one point,
even the areas where its just overgrowth were taken down to dirt, I think they were getting rid of invasive species and such.
not the trees though
TexWriter
I kind of figured they had redone that area when they dedicated it and all. The good news is that they didn't move any of the trees. lol That might be a little hard. Plus we are only interested in one giant step from the base of the tree so that should be ok as well unless they poured concrete right up against the tree. Again, it is only a thought. Thanks for the info maltedfalcon. Also, thanks Jordan for taking the time to walk around out there. I still hope to make it out into that area some time I just don't know when it will be.
erexere
GG, Thanks for joining in!
I think it's a big plus that you are remembering how things use to be in SF. Things seem more and more out of sync with the paintings as the landmarks change with the passage of time.
Do you have any theory on a verse for this image?
I've been working verse7 for SF. When I get to the line about a "giant step" I wonder if it has something to do with the Baseball team. Baseball steps might be those square bases that players step on, the five sided home plate or up on the pictures mound?
Jordan
FYI I'm on the ground in SF if anyone needs a location checked out or scouted.
jermajerm
Hey everyone, first time posting here. I'm glad to see so much attention paid to the Legion of honor area as I had it in my solution. However I was working backwards. I had started at the sutro baths then worked my way to the LOH, from there I was convinced we needed to move towards GGP somehow but I couldn't rectify it. Working away from GGP makes so much more sense.
Anyway, the reason I'm posting is because I think I've hit a match for the shape in the cliff.
hxxp://landscapevoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/8173941411_15c87d1a9d_b.jpg
If you look at the opening that lines up with the shoreline you get a highly similar shape to the one over our girls right shoulder. More over, I've looked at a ton of pictures of that thing over the past few hours and I'm convinced its shape has been changed over the years due to pieces breaking off. Regardless, not a perfect match but really damned close.
I'm in San Jose so I may go take a look this weekend and see what I can figure out up close.
jermajerm
Just following up my previous post with a better pic of the opening at sutro baths.
hxxp://blogs.mercurynews.com/eat-drink-play/files/2014/02/sutro.jpg
jermajerm
Goldengate wrote::
Hey Jerm, it looks like the location you're referencing was discussed here a year or so ago:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&p=128011&hilit=sutro#p128011
I can see why it looks like a winner -- the location itself is amazing and the Sutro Baths have kind of a magical feel about them. I know in the thread there was some discussion about the dirt and elements not making it a great place to bury a casque and having been there myself, it seemed like a valid argument. But definitely check out that link... it includes a pretty convincing animated gif.
Yeah I saw it but theres not much info. Plus, I'm specifically addressing the hole in the cliffs matching the blue blob in the painting rather than the cliffs themselves. Its a huge clue, or at least a prominent feature that I haven't seen anyone identify yet. I'm not sold myself that the casque is at the baths. I am saying 3 things though.
1 That cave is definitely the inspiration for the one in the painting.
2 The baths might be the start/end point for our walking tour that priess was taking us on.
3. If it is the end point, my biggest fear is that the casque is gone with the relocation of the totem pole at the cliff house since the vantage point from its previous location overlooks the cliffs and this feature, and as we all know that is under concrete now.
I'd also like to add one more thing that I haven't seen addressed enough. Adolph Sutro and Mark Twain were big time buddies from their days in Virginia city. So much so that theres a record of letters that they sent back and forth. If we think about how letters and telegrams were addressed back in the day, there was often "Attn of :" associated with the recipient. Though I'll be the first to admit I haven't found that exact wording in the letters I've looked at. In the end it's not too much of a stretch I think.
catherwood
Another SF South Bay resident chiming in here, me. I don't drive to SF much, and have not been inspired yet to do so, even for possible new leads. I still haven't followed up on one image I found online which matches the face in the stone mountain better than anything I've seen. I can't remember where I found it, and I only have a date from 2011 because that's when I grabbed it off the Internet, so I have no idea how long ago the photo was really taken nor where specifically the location is.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... res/4y1309
Look to the left of center for a long diagonal line of rock, and just to the right of that will be the "face" that I think everyone refers to. (I *just* created an account on flickr to upload this, and i can do some photoshopping later to combine the similar areas from both images for comparison later.)
I don't discount the matches with Chinese and Buddhist imagery as suggested above, but if these are common symbols then it might be a thematic inclusion and not a location-specific clue. I also cannot see exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at in the Sutro Bath photo above, but I take your word for it that you see a match, just as you have to assume I'm seeing a similar match in mine.
(returned to add)
I added a zoom and comparison image.
https://flic.kr/p/DLf6gT
jermajerm
catherwood wrote::
I also cannot see exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at in the Sutro Bath photo above, but I take your word for it that you see a match, just as you have to assume I'm seeing a similar match in mine.
hxxp://imgur.com/nhYLtDM&q5yEPR3
This shape right here. Kinda hard to get a good shot of it that isn't partially blocked or too far away or badly lit. It seems to be very affected by shadows, giving it a variable appearance at times. From what I've seen, the left hand side may have been altered by erosion or human action over the past 30 years. And even then I'm only zeroing in on the upper half of the opening.
forest_blight
catherwood -- it looks like you found that picture here:
hxxp://www.berbec.com/rberbec/images/photos/1/2/630/index.html
Several good pictures of the area, including the totem pole. Makes you wonder -- could the casque have been buried simply a "giant step" (5 feet) from where the pole was located in 1981? Is it that simple?
erexere
Thats an intriguing location. Maybe that portion of the story about four indians riding on the same horse is analogous to multiple totems stacked on a pole.
catherwood
forest_blight wrote::
-- could the casque have been buried simply a "giant step" (5 feet) from where the pole was located in 1981? Is it that simple?
(Thank you for finding my historical link.) Yes, I think it used to be just that simple. However, in which direction would you take that giant step? My fantasy is that the totem pole was right on the edge of the hill overlooking the ocean, and the giant step would be straight down the cliff onto the sandy beach. Would a cask been easy to bury down four feet into the sand? Would it have survived a season of tides, within the few months the contest was expected to have been solved? I haven't been to the site, so I cannot say how much the shoreline has changed over the decades, due to both weathering and construction. Should we go and have a dig anyway? We can dream.
forest_blight
No, I meant simply a few feet directly behind the totem from the wall. To go over the cliff would result in far too wide a search area, whereas the 5-foot interpretation results in an exact spot to dig.
WhiteRabbit
Given GH for Great Highway and GGP, maybe you could see the shoulder patch as representing the Cliff House area, Sutro Heights Park.
From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon
Sutro
was a silver baron involved with the
Comstock Lode
.
Merlot Brougham
catherwood wrote::
My fantasy is that the totem pole was right on the edge of the hill overlooking the ocean, and the giant step would be straight down the cliff onto the sandy beach.
I agree that it makes all the sense in the world, and that was what popped into my mind as well. Just speaking in the abstract, and not about this specific location, but I always had a similar interpretation; the cask might be buried at the bottom of a ledge or cliff type structure, that has a pole on the top. I've always entertained the idea that the "giant step" may not be in terms of feet from the pole, but in terms of elevation. We already know Preiss uses the term "step" In Cleveland to refer to a vertical step. Very interesting to me, in verse 8 he he uses "ascend the 92 steps" but uses "100 paces" for horizontal distance. We don't know if the 5 steps in Thucydides' direction are actual stairs or not, but for the sake of this theory, I hope they are. He specifically uses the term "paces" in verse 5. He does use "east steps" in Verse 10.
"Giant step" is open to so much interpretation, that once the actual location is found (if it isn't a casualty of time), will have some definitive direction to go from the pole. "Giant step" gives no horizontal direction whatsoever and it would be a 360 degree crap shoot from the "pole", would it not? Am I missing something there? I know there are some people who are of the opinion that Preiss is very bad at putting together puzzles, but there are seemingly no other specific numbers/treasure ground clues like we see in the other clues (9th Row, 7th Step up, end of 10 by 15, etc.. Even "In the center of 4 alike" gives you a specific spot conceptually). Here it's only "giant pole, giant step" so I think that the concept behind it being an elevation clue with the cask at the base of a cliff or ledge (literally a GIANT step down (or potentially up depending on the actual pole being described in the verse)) is pretty sound. The actual treasure ground would have to appear in such a way that one could intuit what direction from the pole one needs to go. Up/down at least gives you a sense of direction that you can line up with the pole.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
"Giant step" gives no horizontal direction whatsoever and it would be a 360 degree crap shoot from the "pole", would it not? Am I missing something there?
I'm not a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought, but if that turns out to be the solution, the "giant step" would presumably be in the direction of the "object of Twain's attention". If a step is about 30", then a "giant step" would be in the 3-5 foot range, which would narrow down the dig spot considerably. Unless it is a pier sunk directly into the ground, a "giant" pole would probably have a significant concrete foundation, so moving the digger a few feet away from the base makes sense.
Merlot Brougham
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I'm not a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought, but if that turns out to be the solution, the "giant step" would presumably be in the direction of the "object of Twain's attention". If a step is about 30", then a "giant step" would be in the 3-5 foot range, which would narrow down the dig spot considerably. Unless it is a pier sunk directly into the ground, a "giant" pole would probably have a significant concrete foundation, so moving the digger a few feet away from the base makes sense.
I'm not sure if I was suggesting I was a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought or not. I was throwing around some ideas. However, I also know that my knowledge of the specific areas being discussed as it relates to SF are far surpassed by many in this thread. I am very open to a larger-than-life statue of someone of Polish decent as the giant Pole.
Per the above, and my respect for those who know what's what to the finest detail in SF, I don't want to start asking dumb questions about the totem pole in question that I will look up later, but this previously posted picture demonstrates the overall concept I was duscussing:
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I'm not sure if I was suggesting I was a fan of the "find the correct (vertical) giant pole in SF and you've solved the puzzle" school of thought or not.
Sorry MB, I did not mean to suggest that you did. I was trying to address the problem of "horizontal direction" in the verse, and got ahead of myself. Using TOoTA (whatever that is) as a directional indicator is one way address the problem of which side of the pole (whatever it is) to dig on, and that's really the only point I was trying to make.
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
Catherwood -- I think the link below demonstrates what you were referring to... -- the similarity on the rock face is striking.
yeah, you must have missed the addendum to my post. I did my own flipflop to make it match.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 785875549/
The hook in the "nose" is what stands out for me. Also, thank you for the other historical photo above. I was never at the location when the totem pole was there, so any references are helpful, if I ever do find myself near that cliff in the future.
SpearowAgnew
erexere wrote::
I've been working verse7 for SF. When I get to the line about a "giant step" I wonder if it has something to do with the Baseball team. Baseball steps might be those square bases that players step on, the five sided home plate or up on the pictures mound?
Well it's 90 feet between bases. Perhaps "a Giant step" is a roundabout way of saying you need to walk 90 feet.
erexere
Thanks for the input. I dont feel too compelled to figure this puzzle out these days. I think its thematically built around the idea of a doorway. If we findthe correct door, and its likely a giant door, then the spot directly in front would be considered a giant [door] step.
Kalessin
Hm. Been a very long time since I've posted.
I really should, but I haven't read the whole topic thread on this image.
While gazing at image 1 (in normal orientation), I wonder if I'm the only one who sees a faint outline of the Coit Tower, with its distinctive squared-off "step" at the bottom of of the shaft just to the left of the rose, the side of the shaft going up from that step, the place where the shaft narrows, and very faintly the arched windows and round top above that.
If I'm correct, I'd guess that this would be a city identifier, with less chance of being an actual location clue in the city.
Kalessin
I reread all the posts in this topic. Nobody else mentioned the possible image of the Coit Tower hidden where I think I see it.
While I'm at it, the winder on the watch is an, ahem, dead ringer for a cable car bell, as distinctively mounted on some SF cable cars. This may also lend confirmation to the interpretation of the outline of the upper part of the pillar under the table being in the shape of a cable car. I don't believe anyone mentioned this one, either.
Those who favor derived clues may find something in "table" and "cable car" ---> "cable car round table" ---> "cable car turntable", of which there are (I believe) three, quite popular with tourists.
WhiteRabbit
Kalessin wrote::
While I'm at it, the winder on the watch is an, ahem, dead ringer for a cable car bell
Good idea.
(The Cable Car museum where you can presumably see this kind of stuff is just west of Portsmouth Square Plaza with the RLS monument.)
erexere
A note about the Palace of the Legion of Honor in 1995,
hxxp://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-12/ ... t-museum/3
Jordan
erexere wrote::
A note about the Palace of the Legion of Honor in 1995,
hxxp://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-12/ ... t-museum/3
Hey Erexere,
Anything come from those Palace of the Legion of Honor pics I took for you?
erexere
Thank you for taking those. I couldnt determine anything from them. My instincts for blurring that line between what is sensible and what is beyond recognizable means have waned. SF's puzzle is very tricky. The run of herringish possibilities leaves me guessing. I think its for a local like yourself to make any further determinations.
I will say though that the "near ace is high" still seems like a good fit for a golf hole number. An "ace" in golf is a "hole in one". Near a hole that is ace high or like the playing card number 14 could be 13 or 15. The 15th hole is right close to the Palace.
kevsquirrel
Hi Everyone,
Just joined!
I've I been checking the threads and Ive been going though old photos, talking to people I know who have lived hear since the 70s onwards and checking city data.
I feel I am ready to start to dig, but not so much for the getting arrested part.
Could anyone please help with information on contacting Golden Gate Park about how to get permission to dig?
WhiteRabbit
Lafitte wrote::
I too thought this and posted as such many moons ago...
Just came across this tower while mulling over V2 ("the place where jewels abound"). As a piece of historical SF trivia, it's quite interesting. Some of the "novagems" (100,000 of them were used in decorating the structure) look familiar.
hxxp://www.sanfranciscomemories.com/ppi ... ewels.html
MrBackstop
Just learned about this these treasures after watching Expedition Unknown this past week. Really good stuff, so I sat at my computer and went thru image 1 clues. A coulple hours later I have solved the clues and am ready to share them with a San Francisco searcher. I'm in Cincinnati and cannot get out to SF anytime over the next few years. After reading all the many clues and websites I've seen many people follow ideas that just don't work.
If you are in San Francisco area, I've got some news for you.
MrBackstop
Merlot Brougham
MrBackstop wrote::
Just learned about this these treasures after watching Expedition Unknown this past week. Really good stuff, so I sat at my computer and went thru image 1 clues. A coulple hours later I have solved the clues and am ready to share them with a San Francisco searcher. I'm in Cincinnati and cannot get out to SF anytime over the next few years. After reading all the many clues and websites I've seen many people follow ideas that just don't work.
If you are in San Francisco area, I've got some news for you.
MrBackstop
I'm not trying to release any spoilers, but can you tell us what the "G" and "h" represent according to your theory?
MrBackstop
I'm not trying to release any spoilers, but can you tell us what the "G" and "h" represent according to your theory?[/quote]
The capital G and lower case h "in reverse" simply mean that the treasure is in an area on the Backside of the Ghirardelli Sign. It is not on the coastline area as some have suspected.
Merlot Brougham
MrBackstop wrote::
The capital G and lower case h "in reverse" simply mean that the treasure is in an area on the Backside of the Ghirardelli Sign. It is not on the coastline area as some have suspected.
I have always agreed with that assessment. However, I believe Maltedfalcon (could have been someone else, and I apologize if I have this wrong, please speak up) maintains that he G and h match a contemporary tourist flyer or something of that nature - Great Highway. Is there anyone with more information on that interpretation that might want to weigh in on this? I may be misrepresenting these clues, and that's the last thing I want to do. There is an outline in the water of Image 1 that does apparently match a contemporary tourist map? Could someone with more solid information please fill in some of these details? I would try, and I agree with the theory at large, but I am not in any position to speak on behalf of the theory as it isn't my baby. I know it is in the thread, but in the spirit of the anticipated wave of new interest, is anyone interested in clarifying some of this with a couple of bullet points?
Edit:
Quick clarification: I have "always agreed" with the assessment that the G and h are the Ghirardelli sign. I am open minded to thought out theories in general and I know there are other interpretations of the G h, but I lean toward Ghirardelli. Once our intreped SF boots on the ground find it, that interpretation will be proved right or wrong.
MrBackstop
My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street.
WhiteRabbit
MrBackstop wrote::
My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese
That's very unlikely. The book contains a verse called the litany which associates nationalities with gems. Russia is Topaz (image 12) and China is Pearl (image 1).
catherwood
I'm not in SF specifically, but more like an hour's drive away. I've been to Ghirardelli Square as a tourist, and I can't think of any diggable surface around there. Of course, the reverse of the sign is probably visible from many vantage points around the neighborhood, and this is only one of many clues in the image.
If you want a local to go on a scouting mission for you, that's fine. People here will want to know whether you can address all of the previous interpretations of the clues, whether you've considered the way the city and its landmarks looked decades ago when the hunt was first published. Our community has openly discussed many theories over the years, and we're used to being able to exchange ideas (and criticisms) in a joint effort to solve the puzzle. The more you are willing to share, the more you'll find people willng to help.
(But I'm probably too much of a skeptic to believe the treasure is still intact.)
Merlot Brougham
MrBackstop wrote::
My interpretation of the lady is also simple, she is Russian not Chinese and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street.
Apparently Preiss didn't have a Sharipe big enough to cover that up like he did the Fleur de Lis in Image 9.
MrBackstop
Merlot Brougham wrote::
Apparently Preiss didn't have a Sharipe big enough to cover that up like he did the Fleur de Lis in Image 9.
Merlot, are you in SF?
Merlot Brougham
MrBackstop wrote::
Merlot, are you in SF?
Negative.
Hirudiniforme
Merlot Brougham wrote::
.
I like you MB.
MrBackstop
catherwood wrote::
I'm not in SF specifically, but more like an hour's drive away. I've been to Ghirardelli Square as a tourist, and I can't think of any diggable surface around there. Of course, the reverse of the sign is probably visible from many vantage points around the neighborhood, and this is only one of many clues in the image.
If you want a local to go on a scouting mission for you, that's fine. People here will want to know whether you can address all of the previous interpretations of the clues, whether you've considered the way the city and its landmarks looked decades ago when the hunt was first published. Our community has openly discussed many theories over the years, and we're used to being able to exchange ideas (and criticisms) in a joint effort to solve the puzzle. The more you are willing to share, the more you'll find people willng to help.
(But I'm probably too much of a skeptic to believe the treasure is still intact.)
To tell you the truth I wish I could go back to SF and look for this myself but I can't so I'm happy to help. The area of this Image 1 is not a huge SF Landmark.
At the Stone door (San Francisco Bay)
The air smells sweet (Ghirardelli)
Not far away
High Posts are three (Sutro Tower)
Education and Justice
For all to see (Alcatraz)
Sounds from the sky
Near ace is high (George Sterling Memorial Tennis Courts)
Running north, but first across (Columbus Ave)
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention (West toward the Mississippi)
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept (Playfully using the SF Giants name)
Hirudiniforme
MrBackstop wrote::
... and the serpent on her gown is obviously Lombard Street.
lulz
MrBackstop
Oh, I forgot one, I believe that
Sounds from the sky (refers to Telegraph Hill)
MrBackstop
Now here are my thoughts on the Artwork itself:
The 11 spheres in the sky could represent the 11 freeways in San Francisco. Forgive me for not reading this massive thread started years ago if this has already been mentioned.
Obviously the prison window on the rock is Alcatraz.
Backwards "G and h" are in reference to the back of the Ghirardelli sign.
Serpent represents Lombard Street
The Lady's fingers point to the 4th square on each sleeve representing the 44 hills of San Francisco.
I believe the squares on the Serpent represent all the blocks and blocks of streets in San Francisco.
NOW, LETS GET TO WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE ARTWORK:
The rose is a symbol of the park that this "secret" is in. The clock sitting on top of the pedestal is not a pedestal at all, it is a GNOMON. And if you are not aware, a GNOMON is the raised piece of a Sundial that casts a shadow onto the sundial. So technically a sundial like this is a "clock" on a pedestal. The Roman Numerals on the Lady's garment are representing the numbers on a Sundial.
The place I'm going to find a sundial like this one is in a small little park near Russian Hill, Southwest of Columbus Ave, a block away from Lombard street, located Southeast of the Ghirardelli Sign, and loaded with beautiful rose bushes.
The Park is referred to as "The Secret Garden at Fay Park"
So if I were in San Francisco, I'd go there and take a Giant Step to the west from the Giant Pole of the sundial and perhaps you'll find the "secret" in the base of that bush.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
WhiteRabbit
Nice one MrBackstop, some nice ideas there. I don't remember the sundial theory being discussed much, though it has been mentioned before. Looking at it again, it's quite compelling. As for Fay Park...that's got to be worth a visit...
(Incidentally, the SF Giants are shown on P89.)
MrBackstop
I believe another possibility "Of Twain's attention" could be Hawaii. He traveled there for awhile after SF.
If that is the correct solve to this line, then you would need to take a Giant step toward the Southwest which would mean the spot of the "secret" would be where the rose bushes are just upon the opening of the gate to Fay Park.
Keep in mind, I just found out about this treasure hunt a few days ago so the more I look at this the more ideas keep "narrowing" in my mind.
DarkTetsuya
Okay so long story short my dad was watching Expedition Unknown and had tipped me off about the existence of this book and this treasure hunt, so here I am! Anyway from a couple of days of pouring over the clues (I decided I'd focus mostly on the supposed San Francisco clue, since that would be the easiest one for me to get to if I decided to pursue this treasure hunt.
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention (West toward the Mississippi)
Okay from following the clues on Google Maps, I noticed that there's actually a Maritime Museum directly across from Ghiradeli Square (because if you go back to the original image, the reversed G and h are right next to where the pearl is in the picture (and from researching other posts here I only saw one other reference to the location I was thinking of, though I think it was a slightly different area:
hxxp://www.mediafire.com/view/09694d2s2 ... TSclue.png
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept (Playfully using the SF Giants name)
Although I couldn't figure out a way to work this into my google maps research, my theory was that the pearl in the original painting was right about where it'd be if the 'Gh' is the front steps of Ghiradeli Square, looking out (I mean if you were in the building the Gh would technically be reversed....
I only wish I lived in the area and could test this theory!
MrBackstop
Let me add this to my current solve. The sundial at Fay Park looks just like the one in the artwork and the rose sitting on the sundial would represent the rose bushes just above it a Giant step away. In my mind this is where the "secret" has to be.
Somebody let me know when you find it.
MrBackstop
adastra
Looks like Fay Park was a private residence until it was donated to the city in 1998. Also there were renovations in 2005.
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/fay-park/
https://tclf.org/landscapes/fay-park
erexere
Fenix, great thinking on the sundial idea. Using a table to tell time. Hmm. Could it be transit related? A trolley, bus, or ferry boat? Or is it about a place where one would stand in the middle of a circular area where a large light source is near?
Howardjthomas
Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0
catherwood
Howardjthomas wrote::
Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0
Yes, by me and others, and posted about in these forums. Yes, it's a slog to go back to read pages and pages of old theories, but I did post a photograph of an area of exposed rock along the highway near the Cliff house. The texture matches. (Here's the link for the comparison, to save everyone the trouble of backtracking.)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138673403 ... 785875549/
MrBackstop
adastra wrote::
Looks like Fay Park was a private residence until it was donated to the city in 1998. Also there were renovations in 2005.
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/fay-park/
https://tclf.org/landscapes/fay-park
Adastra, thank for the info. I know where this rookie made his mistake. I first looked to see if the park met the time requirement and noticed that the designer Thomas Church had been designing gardens up until 1978. Then I just took off and ran with it, back to the drawing board.
MrBackstop
meatypuffs
Howardjthomas wrote::
Has this face been noticed before. It's under and to the left of the stone door.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/czo6yn49jey7m ... 4.jpg?dl=0
I don't recall seeing a post about that. Does it appear to you to be someone looking to the right side of Image 1? I'm struggling to make out a clear face otherwise. If so, there is a similar looking figure on the statue dedicated to Verdi in GGP, located here:
https://goo.gl/maps/e6eeXF6qBJM2
. A closeup photo of the figure can be found here:
hxxp://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/wp ... C_3800.jpg
. Interestingly, the statue depicts Love, Tragedy, Joy and Sorrow, which were not unfamiliar topics for Mark Twain to write about.
xarimus
JoshCornell wrote::
completed this motherfucker f**k yes...now have exact location and anxiety eases away....ahhhhh
*does a little dance*
For reals!?! you have it?? Can we see what it looks like? Where was it?
Gem
xarimus wrote::
For reals!?! you have it?? Can we see what it looks like? Where was it?
He has completed no digs. He's posted on various threads saying he has completed the puzzles, though.
xarimus
Gem wrote::
He has completed no digs. He's posted on various threads saying he has completed the puzzles, though.
Ah sorry, I'm new here. Got my hopes up! Though SF is the one closest to me, not sure I'll get the chance to go hunt about myself.
JamesV
WhiteRabbit wrote::
I'm going through a statue phase at the moment. Considering I1 V6, it seems a heck of a coincidence that we have a plaque for RLS, a plaque for Edwin, and a great big chinese statue all right next to each other.
The uneven paving of St Mary's Square reminds me of the dragon scales.
And just check out that collar.
It's adorned with Chinese hieroglyphics like the image. And his hands are like the mountains.
I appreciate that the image has a strong resonance with GGP, but maybe this is an area pointer like the Water Tower.
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
RLS plaque.
Stand and listen to the birds
Hear the cool, clear song of water
Harken to the words:
Freedom at the birth of a century
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
Foundation of Equity at Edwin Booth's place in NY.
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
(Due south of Alcatraz, just as the pearl in the pic is below the bars?)
Beside the long palm's shadow
Near the statue
Embedded in the sand
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand.
Still a lot of unknowns here, but maybe worth a visit. It's two blocks from Clay St., named after Henry Clay who had a hand in the Emancipation Proclamation.
Statue is Sun Yat Sen. (Note reference to suns in the Chinese section of the intro. I know people hate this intro but it does give us FOY so it can't be all bad.)
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen
Sculptor is Benny Bufano.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Bufano
Giving this post a quick bump after some chats with WhiteRabbit, in the hopes that it might prompt one of our San Francisco-based hunters with an open mind to look into a possible I1/V6 pairing. Having never personally been to SF it's hard to judge from Google Maps, but it looks as if all of these landmarks noted are visible within a 1/2-mile walk through Chinatown.
My only contribution (so far) is that whole "Freedom at the birth of a century / Or May 1913" bit...could it be a reference to the Boxer Rebellion at the end of the Qing dynasty,1899-1901, and then the formation of the Republic of China between 1912-13? Interesting to note than Sun Yet-sen, pictured in the statue that WhiteRabbit dug up from St. Mary's Park, is also known as the "father of the nation". I also learned that he traveled back and forth between China and San Francisco somewhat regularly.
It was a little challenging for me to search for images online since I don't know the area, but maybe a sharper set of eyes can find some sort of plaque or historical marker around here which reads "May 1913."
JamesV
Quick follow-up to the previous post on St.Mary's square...apparently there's also a "White House" right across the street from the statue that WhiteRabbit found. It looks to be a public parking garage now, but it's apparently also some kind of historic SF landmark which might further suggest an I1/V6 pairing. Link:
hxxp://thewhitehousegaragesf.com
Also: just learned that Title 8 of the US code deals with the role of aliens and nationality in the United States, and Chapter 8 of this code specifically deals with Chinese immigrants. No joke...this is officially titled as "The Cooly Trade".
Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_8_o ... tates_Code
Could the Chinese Exclusion Act, enacted in 1882 and repealed in 1943, possible be the inspiration for the couplet "Or on the eighth a scene / Where law defended"? Again, unsure if there's any historical markers or similar nearby, but it seems to fit well with both I1 and the immigration theme.
Also interesting: The adjacent park from St. Mary's, the Union Square shopping area, was built up over a sand dune... (Link:
hxxp://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/arti ... 731306.php
)
DarkTetsuya
Goldengate wrote::
I've looked around and haven't seen any previous reference as to what may be TWO NEW POSSIBLE CLUES I've just noticed in Image One. (Please forgive me, but I have searched here and on the Wiki, but these have not been addressed as I will below)
#1 Flip Image One on her head, and read the Roman numerals on the left hand side. One of those images will be VI... what's interesting about this is that's where the SIXTH and Fulton pedestrian entrance is located in relation to what many (including me) consider to be a representation of Stow Lake.
In 1981, the park closed the 6th Ave entrance to vehicles... so the pedestrian entrance was BRAND... SPANKING... NEW... as was the Chinese Pavilion. Anytime something is new in GGP, they make a big deal of it... I can imagine Preiss using new permanent fixtures at the park as markers.
I'm not saying this is a home run clue, but as a guy who lived in San Francisco for many years, this seems like a very cool, not coincidental fit. Priess obviously meant this challenge to be accomplished while getting outside and walking. There are many entrances to GGP, but this one, is a formal pedestrian entrance, with a small entry plaza with small curved walls which you walk between to gain access to the park, just down from Stow Lake. Also, there's an old plaque on the left hand wall... just saying'...
if this is actually a real clue, it may represent Preiss' intended starting point -- and the subsequent clues may unfold from this entry to the ultimate casque location.
#2 There has been much discussion as to the blocks on the cuffs of the woman's robe. But forget which block she's pointing at. One sleeve has 18 blocks. The other sleeve has 20 blocks. If you draw two lines across the park at 18th and 20th Avenues, you will include the "top" of Stow Lake as it is illustrated in the picture... also included is the area on both sides of Crossover Drive... and Prayerbook Cross also fits neatly in there.
I've got a squirmy three year old kid and a job in in LA, so odds are I won't be be running up there to dig... but I hope this helps someone who has boots on the ground!
Thanks for the tip! thinking of talking the family into a road trip to try and find the casque, but I'll add these to my notes I've started!
Goonie68
OHHH YES! I see it The front cross is much darker from what I can see.
treetops
When I look at those "crosses" in the book, their horizontal beams appear to be formed by a faint line that extends all the way across the image, making me think it's a printing artifact instead of a deliberate inclusion by Palencar.
strike13
've been working on the boston one for some time now. I noticed that in both the cleveland and chicago finds had a clear cut image of the burial spot in the painting. I know nothing at all about san fran or what yiu guys have done for resesrch, haven't read up or analyzed yours but i did just look at the photo and, to me, in the fashion of the other finds and how the burial locations were represented in the paintings, this is the location of the burial site here:
https://imgur.com/a/xILtW
And thank you for entertaining my quick glance thoughts
erexere
I wish I could understand how this puzzle works. Boston seems easy compared to SF.
I get the feeling the picture represents a prison in the background. The obvious choice for the symbolism would suggest a view of Alcatraz might be in the background from where we are to dig. Or the painting suggests that's where Prince Yi has contained the last fire breathing dragon, which may represent looking out towards the cliffs of Diablo Point Light. Or some more practical fire/prison/barred window kind of reference is being made.
I wonder if some clues might be found around the China beach area.
drunknerds
Read all the posts in this thread several times (in fact, I'm going to make a DrunkNotes summary of it next time I get a free afternoon), and I'm a little shocked to not see this mentioned. I'm sure it HAS to have been mentioned, though:
We've been flipping the dress about the vertical axis because of the G h. But why not flip the whole thing about the horizontal axis too, because of the upside down roman numerals? It could even be argued that every numeral on the dress border is upside down, because the I II III above her hands read the same way upside down.
Not sure if this will lead anywhere, but I kind of feel its such an obvious clue and in-line with the G h flip that it must yield something. It would put the flare on the opposite corner which would make all the lay-a-map-of-GGP-over-the-dress theories kind of... different?
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
I wish I could understand how this puzzle works. .
This puzzle makes me feel like a Giant pole
drunknerds
For some reason, there's another thread about this. It's too bad, because a huge breakthrough has been found there and I think this thread missed this.
Let me summarize it here. Most of these are stuff they discovered that I just put labeled images to:
Goonie68 and treetops, I believe, found the GGP senior center:
There, they noticed a very familiar dragon statue on the senior center, and a decent "lamppost under the table" match:
Note the teeth, here:
Oh, hey, here's the front entrance:
No bars, you say? The location was once a police station.
Gosh, I guess all we need is a:
Check out the top of that pole and the shape of the grounds:
I believe goonies or treetops is currently researching the history of the pole. If it was there in 1980, take one step from the base towards fulton street, and dig..
Goonie68
Thanks for looking at the thread. I have more info as my research has begun to unravel this mystery starting point stay tuned!!!!!
Goonie68
Also the book has way more clues in it then you think, you have to dig deep and what I have found is mind blowing stuff!!! I am trying to put it all together....
gManTexas
Wow! Right there in the open by the street?
Yes, the flagpole has been there:
hxxp://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979
gManTexas
JoshCornell1 wrote::
is that the pole where that bliven guy dug?
No. He dug in a different park.
Goonie68
Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me.
drunknerds suggested right there in front of the senior center.
drunknerds
I cannot overstate how CRUCIAL the dragon find is:
This
is our fence and fixture.
This
is our Grecian garden wall.
This
is out exact match of a minor landmark at the dig location.
This is real.
meatypuffs
Goldengate wrote::
37th Ave is interesting and there are pieces that seem to fit into the puzzle. But if I may be the devil's advocate... would Preiss have dug out in the open, directly in front of the of the Police Academy's front door -- on an extremely busy street like Fulton? Back in 82, as today, there was absolutely no cover in that area. Anything's possible, of course... but that would be BOLD.
As I recall, it became the senior center in 1980 or 1981. That doesn't solve the issue of digging out in the open, but at least it was not a police station at that time.
I said in a post in the other thread that I really like this location with stone wall door, the dragon, the lamp post, and the pearl appearing on top of an elusive giant pole. I don't love Fulton Street=Steamboat=Twain, but that's always been one of the more difficult lines to find a clear match. Assuming "giant step" is an instruction to take a giant step away from the pole, I think it is worth exploring a few feet surrounding the pole. At least it appears this area has been unchanged since the early 80's, so we should have a good idea of whether it's the right spot or not. Dig it up!
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
Ok so I think this is getting confusing in the information....The senior building on fulton and 37ave is my starting point. Stone Wall's door, not he ending place where the casques is buried. This is where my research has brought me.
Oh, cool, glad we have two interpretations to compare. Looking forward to yours
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
37th Ave is interesting and there are pieces that seem to fit into the puzzle. But if I may be the devil's advocate... would Preiss have dug out in the open, directly in front of the of the Police Academy's front door -- on an extremely busy street like Fulton? Back in 82, as today, there was absolutely no cover in that area. Anything's possible, of course... but that would be BOLD.
This is a great counterpoint.
I'm hoping goonie68 posts a solve that is still right by that dragon statue, but much more secluded
drunknerds
Who's got a dumb question?
Where exactly is that dragon at the senior center? I can't find it on streetview
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Who's got a dumb question?
Where exactly is that dragon at the senior center? I can't find it on streetview
Go to google maps, find the Senior Center, click on photos. It's in the arch above the door.
treetops
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@37.772026,-122.497051,182.71h,5.22p,0.55z
Above the front doors
Goonie68
I will post the picture I took later today ....you know work and all get's in the way!!!
erexere
I see your excitement about the dragon but It doesn't seem like a pure match.
gManTexas
I found this while searching. Some interesting photos and descriptions of GGP through the years.
hxxp://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S ... 932506.php
Also, wouldn't the verse air smells sweet refer to the Garden of Fragrance?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Garde ... 22.4685314
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Also, wouldn't the verse air smells sweet refer to the Garden of Fragrance?
Why, no, it's the <frantically searches the area around GGP senior center> it's the Golden Gate Park dog training area, of course
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Why, no, it's the <frantically searches the area around GGP senior center> it's the Golden Gate Park dog training area, of course
Haha, you might be onto something. Check your shoe!
drunknerds
In this image G-Man found, it looks like this flagpole spot wouldn't be seen from the street no the sidewalk. There's a hedge and then above it bushes.
If it was like this in 1980 or whenever, I'd have no problem believing price slipped in after hours and buried a casque
drunknerds
Also, immediately behind the senior center, in a much more secluded area, is this thing that I don't know what it is:
meatypuffs
drunknerds wrote::
Also, immediately behind the senior center, in a much more secluded area, is this thing that I don't know what it is:
From Bing maps, it looks like a street lamp:
Goonies or someone else on the ground can probably give us better confirmation, though.
drunknerds
Thanks meatypuffs.
I emailed the art/museum director of the Senior Center and nicely asked for any and all info about the door dragons.
gManTexas
There's some evidence that there was a giant pole at Stow Lake in the past. The question is whether it was there when BP visited.
https://www.hippostcard.com/search?keyw ... arent_id=0
This is the location where the pole used to be, directly across from the Chinese Pavillion.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7685032 ... 312!8i6656
If it was there (big if) there are some giant steps in line with it from the area of the Gardens:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7685033 ... 312!8i6656
I speculate if any of this is plausible.
However, in thinking about things and digging for info, Mark Twain and Harriet Beecher Stowe were neighbors and good friends. In the direction of Twain's attention would be Stow Lake.
drunknerds
Hey hunters, is it safe to tap a five foot probe one step towards the street from that senior center pole? I can't imagine they'd run a pipe/wire from that weird utility box
under
the flagpole base, so as probing one step away from the pole would hit it. But, at the same time, I have no experience with this.
I have a couple of friends who seem willing to try that out (although we'll see if they're just riding my hype-man train), but I don't want to like leave a senior center without sewage or something, lol
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
I will post the picture I took later today ....you know work and all get's in the way!!!
You took a picture of the dragon sculpture again? You are a God among men, even if the pic was of something else.
This Travel channel special has yielded some results, after all: Reading old threads it seems like it took weeks/months to get pictures of a place of interest.
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
I see your excitement about the dragon but It doesn't seem like a pure match.
I'm eager to hear back from the art director of the building. If they say the dragons weren't there in 1981, I will gain remarkable insight into the minds of all the people who have sworn they had an exact match, but didn't. So I'm going to learn something, either way.
But man, this is as close a match as I've seen for one of these chimera-like images, in terms of replicated details.
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
I understand why this is a cool and very juicy idea to pursue... but I'm familiar with the post card images you're referring to and they're not where you think they are. The post card images were taken from the Roman Bridge looking West toward one of the smaller islands. While the "mainland is to the left, the paths of Strawberry Hill island are seen to the right, and Huntington Falls and the future site of the Pavilion would likewise be on the right side and ahead -- across from that smaller island. I'm not the best at posting links, and photos here (I'll try to fix that) but take a look for yourself on any map. Also, the pole is no longer there.
Dang that was super insightful. Thanks!
commish
If the final solution is something like a flag pole, how do you come up with "a giant step" from the pole to spot where the casque is buried? Looking at Chicago and Cleveland, the spot was specifically marked as where it would be, no guess work.
drunknerds
commish wrote::
If the final solution is something like a flag pole, how do you come up with "a giant step" from the pole to spot where the casque is buried? Looking at Chicago and Cleveland, the spot was specifically marked as where it would be, no guess work.
Edit: Oh, I read too deep into your post. The answer is "the final lines of the verse that is one of the leading contenders for this image is "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept."
--
Original Post:
Great question. First of all, my theory relies on "in Jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's affection" right before "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept" meaning "stand at the pole and take a big step towards Fulton street." Poles often have wider bases underground, so you usually should take a step away from them if you want to dig down 3 feet.
Second, I wish so hard "no guess work" was true for the solves, but the opposite actually happened : Cleveland took all day because the clues seemed to lead to the wrong side of the wall from where the casque was buried and Chicago took over a year, iirc, with the author himself stating to the hunters that he doesn't see why they haven't found it after digging a trench long enough to win WWI
treetops
drunknerds wrote::
I'm eager to hear back from the art director of the building. If they say the dragons weren't there in 1981, I will gain remarkable insight into the minds of all the people who have sworn they had an exact match, but didn't. So I'm going to learn something, either way.
I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD.
Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing
Would be very interested to learn if your senior center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I understand why this is a cool and very juicy idea to pursue... but I'm familiar with the post card images you're referring to and they're not where you think they are. The post card images were taken from the Roman Bridge looking West toward one of the smaller islands. While the "mainland" is to the left, the paths of Strawberry Hill Island are seen to the right, and Huntington Falls and the future site of the Pavilion would likewise be on the right side and ahead -- across from that smaller island. I'm not the best at posting links, and photos here (I'll try to fix that) but take a look for yourself on any map. Also, the pole is no longer there.
That's why I said it was speculative. Although I would be interested in knowing when the pole went away, wherever it was located.
I still like the Twain - Stowe connection.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
Just to be clear, my "contact" is "the email I found on the senior center's website." Altho4ugh, I'm really good at two things. One of which is eliciting info from people through niceness.
Unfortunately, the other thing I'm good at is "hyping this thing into epic proportions beyond realistic expectations."
Also, It's so hard to tell if a match is exact or not, because a lot of these images seem to have taken a statue and transformed many elements. So I'm stuck with "This phoenix is obviously not this dragon/serpent thing, but they have like 3-5 unmistakable similarities"
meatypuffs
treetops wrote::
I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD.
Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing
Would be very interested to learn if your senior center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s
Here's a great image of it:
hxxp://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979
. Click "View Image" for a very big version of it. Doesn't look like it has moved since when it was a police station.
meatypuffs
treetops wrote::
I would characterize the creatures above the door as phoenixes, a creature frequently used to symbolize the city's "rising from the ashes" after the 1906 earthquake, and a symbol used by the SFPD.
Here is a 1941 photograph of the building as a police academy, with the phoenix decorations faintly visible:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gtGoPK ... sp=sharing
Would be very interested to learn if your
senior
center contact has exterior photographs of the building from the 80s or 90s
Here's a great image of it:
hxxp://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/record=b1033979
. Click "View Image" for a very big version of it. Doesn't look like it has moved since when it was a police station.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I really hate to be the guy who shoots down cool connections (and they are cool), but:
1) The lake was not named after Harriet Beecher Stowe
2) The lake is "Stow" Lake -- no "e"
Again, a great and inventive idea -- but speaking for myself, It feels like a pretty big reach. Twain is / was America's humorist and chronicler in chief. He was interested in everybody and everything. You can throw a dart and find something that had Twain's attention at one point or another, which is why I think the clue is something that's a little more accessible on the surface than something like a Stowe connection.
Dude, I think you are being too literal. There are way more obscure references and clues in these puzzles. Stowe and Stow are almost a 1 to 1 match in my book, but I didn't claim the lake was named after her. Twain and Stowe lived in houses next to each other and were friends. They admired each others work. I could also see the Pioneer Cabin (same area in the park) working as a reference, since Stowe wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin and Twain responded with Huck Finn.
Could the Twain reference point to something else? Yes. I even made mention previously about Twain being into Hasheesh candy from Richards and Co. on the northwest corner of Clay and Sansome streets as a possible directional clue.
https://www.thecannabist.co/2015/09/18/ ... nia/41175/
I'm throwing stuff out there that I haven't really come across, to get my brain thinking, but more important, for maybe someone else to make a leap of intuition.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Gman
I'm all for making leaps! And these are GREAT and INSPIRATIONAL -- truly. I just don't feel they would be reasonably sourced in 1982. Preiss in his own words thought these puzzles would be solved in a MONTH so I'm not being overly literal, just realistic. Google is a magical tool, but it didn't exist in 82. Sourcing Twain and Stowe's relationship, which would have taken far more than encyclopedia-deep research and matching it to Stow Lake, would have been a landslide of work.
Not saying it's not possible, but I went to college just prior to the internet and making a Twain / Stowe connection out of the mounds of Twain research in actual books, while hilighting dozens of other thin connections like his observations on weed, is just unlikely.
I'm looking for likely solutions that are complex, but not several times removed from what most would commonly relate to Twain.
All that said, I've always thought the Pioneer Cabin was a possible hit. Not because of Stowe, but Calaveras County. -- BTW, I've looked at probably every frog statue in Golden Gate park as well for the same reason, LOL!
I hear what you are saying, I'm all about these puzzles being relatively straightforward. However, I disagree on Stowe. She was WAY more famous than the Abroad in America authors referenced in Verse 2. Here's a quick article and I think almost everyone had read Uncle Tom's Cabin. Requisite reading for high school.
https://connecticuthistory.org/the-most ... the-world/
https://connecticuthistory.org/where-mr ... am-houses/
Anyway, there is probably some very simple solution that is just escaping everyone, probably due to time or missing features on the ground.
gManTexas
I agree, but on the other hand BP was a literary guy. I think he expected people to be very well read and make some of these connections. Also, using the tools from that period, we had encyclopedias, the library, etc.
I did say this when I joined the forum: If it was me in 1980 and I was traveling to a distant city, I would go to the tourism office, the library, talk to the locals. Find out what was important.
It might help to talk to some old timers in the location, see what they remember. These puzzle probably have to be solved on the ground at the location.
I think we can only get so far with the Internet, then some people need to talk to people, walk the paths and put a shovel in the ground.
commish
drunknerds wrote::
Edit: Oh, I read too deep into your post. The answer is "the final lines of the verse that is one of the leading contenders for this image is "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept."
--
Original Post:
Great question. First of all, my theory relies on "in Jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's affection" right before "giant pole giant step to the place the casque is kept" meaning "stand at the pole and take a big step towards Fulton street." Poles often have wider bases underground, so you usually should take a step away from them if you want to dig down 3 feet.
Second, I wish so hard "no guess work" was true for the solves, but the opposite actually happened : Cleveland took all day because the clues seemed to lead to the wrong side of the wall from where the casque was buried and Chicago took over a year, iirc, with the author himself stating to the hunters that he doesn't see why they haven't found it after digging a trench long enough to win WWI
I wouldn't say they are easy to find. After 35 years, there have been two found. At this rate it will take 210 years to find the remaining treasures, but once the Chicago team and Cleveland team put the clues in the correct order and using hind site we can see Preiss did have them fairly well marked.
It just seems to me that Preiss wouldn't leave it up to you taking a giant step out compared to mine, compared to someone else's step. Those could easy vary enough in distance to leading a person to miss the spot. I have to believe Preiss wanted these found, if nothing more, so He could do it again. It seems to me that there would need to be some indicator at the site as what the distance would actually be to start digging.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
It really can be that simple.
Milwaukee is that simple. So is Roanoke. And St. Augustine. Collectively, we are 0-653* for holes dug in those three cities. So while it can be that simple, it probably isn't.
*more or less
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/
Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/
Here is the picture I took of the
senior
building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.
Goonie68
Better close up.
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40112003722/in/dateposted-public/
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/
Here is the picture I took of the
senior
building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.
Is there any way to tell how old they are? Also, is that a lion in the stone plaque above the arch?
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/
Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.
Is there any way to tell how old they are? Also, is that a lion in the stone plaque above the arch?
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364786499/in/dateposted-public/
Looks like
gManTexas
Found this from 1941 or thereabouts. Looks like the design was there or similar at least.
https://calisphere.org/item/4fee6001c15 ... 403a6ba33/
Goonie68
Yes from what I can tell it was, I believe I read someone is calling the parks and recs and inquiring about the iron work above
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364786499/in/dateposted-public/
Looks like
Like a lion, but also a green man.
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/28364915449/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40112224502/in/dateposted-public/
Bars on the windows.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Found this from 1941 or thereabouts. Looks like the design was there or similar at least.
https://calisphere.org/item/4fee6001c15 ... 403a6ba33/
Whoa, and although the windows don't have bars here, the door sure looks like it does. Plus they are thin and really close, an unusual design from the normal bars that appear on like 70% of SF windows
If we can find out if the door had bars in 1980, we'd have 2-3 amazing matches right there in the same place.
drunknerds
commish wrote::
I wouldn't say they are easy to find. After 35 years, there have been two found. At this rate it will take 210 years to find the remaining treasures, but once the Chicago team and Cleveland team put the clues in the correct order and using hind site we can see Preiss did have them fairly well marked.
It just seems to me that Preiss wouldn't leave it up to you taking a giant step out compared to mine, compared to someone else's step. Those could easy vary enough in distance to leading a person to miss the spot. I have to believe Preiss wanted these found, if nothing more, so He could do it again. It seems to me that there would need to be some indicator at the site as what the distance would actually be to start digging.
But that's what he did: The Chicago casque was a few giant steps from the fencepost. If there was ever a tree marker, he would have had to bury it a step away to avoid roots.
If you want to bury something at a monument/flagpole , you'd also want to be a few feet away to avoid hitting the base or destabilizing the structure
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26197447338/in/dateposted-public/
Here is the picture I took of the senior building. If you zoom in you will see a good view of the Phoenix. There also appears to have what looks like a rose in the center of the Phoenix.
Fantastic work!
treetops
Two things that just occurred to me:
1) Is this phoenix ironwork unique to the old police academy, or were similar pieces found over the entrances to other San Francisco police buildings?
2) At the point when Preiss would have been in the park, would there have been any indication that this used to be the police academy? I'm thinking plaques, historical markers, etc. If there were mentions of the old police academy, could this be a candidate for "Education and Justice" in one place?
drunknerds
Wow, education and justice: a policy academy
Great work treetops and goldengate!
drunknerds
If the police station was open 24 hours, Preiss couldn't have just stood there digging, unnoticed.
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
If anything, it's a way marker, but nothing about it (to me) makes sense as the location of the casque.
after education and justice in the verse is "sounds from the sky near ace is high," so if we start walking from the senior center west along Fulton towards hwy 1...
Then we run north(not sure about the across: the windmill we pass?) we hit Sutro fields park
drunknerds
Whoops I confused Great Highway with highway 1.
Too bad, I really wanted to explore a new park
drunknerds
I think I see what Goonie was talking about. If you go to where "ace is high" is "running north but first across" it's right down the road form the senior center. Then there's a large cross there. Where a giant pole could have ever been though, I don't know. But if Goonie found some of those dress symbols on the cross, it's a good sign. Not sure if just finding a triangle is sufficient for me. There is a log cabin about 4:00 SE from there, and Twain lived in a log cabin in San Francisco.
drunknerds
Her dress and sleeves make a pretty convincing cross, but then the bottom right of the horizontal part has a weird wiggle in it. Wonder what that's about?
Here's the cross in 1950:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... 7uY8-L.jpg
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
I think I see what Goonie was talking about. If you go to where "ace is high" is "running north but first across" it's right down the road form the senior center. Then there's a large cross there. Where a giant pole could have ever been though, I don't know. But if Goonie found some of those dress symbols on the cross, it's a good sign. Not sure if just finding a triangle is sufficient for me. There is a log cabin about 4:00 SE from there, and Twain lived in a log cabin in San Francisco.
Not that it means anything, but I saw a sketch from when they erected the cross, they used a giant pole as rigging:
https://jktlibrary.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... francisco/
There also used to be a death ray in the park!
hxxp://sfcitizen.com/blog/2009/07/13/th ... gate-park/
commish
drunknerds wrote::
Her dress and sleeves make a pretty convincing cross, but then the bottom right of the horizontal part has a weird wiggle in it. Wonder what that's about?
Here's the cross in 1950:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... 7uY8-L.jpg
I agree that the dress and sleeves make a very nice cross very similar to the style of cross in the park. I'm going to throw something else out there, I also notice that the right hand in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve of the dress. On Prayer Book Cross there are four blocks with text in them on the face of the cross. Is there any chance that the height of the four blocks on the cross is our giant step? Measure the height of the blocks then take the same distance out from the base of the cross towards Twain's attention and see where that lands. That's my best guess.
drunknerds
PB Cross is Celtic though. That's Boston, isn't it? I wonder if he'd bury an Asian-themed puzzle casque by a Celtic monument
Also, there's no way he'd call that a pole. Is there any precedent in the solved ones for him to be that outrageous with a description?
drunknerds
Don't get me wrong: I think these are good suggestions, just discouraged by lack of pole.
erexere
drunknerds wrote::
PB Cross is Celtic though. That's Boston, isn't it? I wonder if he'd bury an Asian-themed puzzle casque by a Celtic monument
Also, there's no way he'd call that a pole. Is there any precedent in the solved ones for him to be that outrageous with a description?
Chicago is the Celtic puzzle. Boston is the Italian puzzle. I don't know that it really matters...
commish
PB is Celtic, at least that's what I thought. The image of the cross in the dress appears to me to be in the Celtic style also. Coincident? Maybe. I look at a cross and see it as a pole with a cross arm. 57' tall would make a big pole to me.
Personally, I'm coming to this game late and for whatever reason, I focused in on this puzzle. With that said, I do not know this park at all. I've never been there, only been to SF once about 15 years ago. So as I'm going over the image, I focused in on the hand asking what is it pointing to. With the index finger is off the "map" (assuming the map is golden gate park and the arms are HWY 1) so that can't be the spot. But the ring finger and the pinkie are still in the body of the map and I wonder if they are pointing to something, so I get out Google Maps and that when I see that is where I see PB Cross is in the park. Then thinking there needs to be a confirmation of the site in the image, I see the out line of the cross in the dress. A few days later I notice that PB Cross has the four blocks on it where as the index finger in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve. Another coincidence for me. I'm not saying that know anything, but if I were remotely close, I'd drop a hole or two to find out. I just know it won't happen for me any time soon.
What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been.
drunknerds
There's an overlap of the police station existing after the current park police station opened up in the Haight. So it's logical that the station with the phoenix statue could have been made an academy-only spot by the time Preiss got there.
I realized that, with the modest shrubbery in front of the pole, Preiss could have easily hidden the casque with a lookout to warn him... When Preiss was hiding the casques, he was dating his future wife, and she lived in San Francisco
I'm asking my SF friends if any of them would probe around the area, I'm back to super-sure it's here: The Phoenix and door (and maybe post) are just too obscure for a walking tour, especially if they wouldn't be seen from the sidewalk at the time
drunknerds
commish wrote::
PB is Celtic, at least that's what I thought. The image of the cross in the dress appears to me to be in the Celtic style also. Coincident? Maybe. I look at a cross and see it as a pole with a cross arm. 57' tall would make a big pole to me.
Personally, I'm coming to this game late and for whatever reason, I focused in on this puzzle. With that said, I do not know this park at all. I've never been there, only been to SF once about 15 years ago. So as I'm going over the image, I focused in on the hand asking what is it pointing to. With the index finger is off the "map" (assuming the map is golden gate park and the arms are HWY 1) so that can't be the spot. But the ring finger and the pinkie are still in the body of the map and I wonder if they are pointing to something, so I get out Google Maps and that when I see that is where I see PB Cross is in the park. Then thinking there needs to be a confirmation of the site in the image, I see the out line of the cross in the dress. A few days later I notice that PB Cross has the four blocks on it where as the index finger in the image is pointing to the fourth block on the sleeve. Another coincidence for me. I'm not saying that know anything, but if I were remotely close, I'd drop a hole or two to find out. I just know it won't happen for me any time soon.
What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been.
Malted Falcon is the one who has done the most digs and is in good with the Parks crew. And he was pretty funny on the Shhhhh podcast.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
There's an overlap of the police station existing after the current park police station opened up in the Haight. So it's logical that the station with the phoenix statue could have been made an academy-only spot by the time Preiss got there.
I realized that, with the modest shrubbery in front of the pole, Preiss could have easily hidden the casque with a lookout to warn him... When Preiss was hiding the casques, he was dating his future wife, and she lived in San Francisco
I'm asking my SF friends if any of them would probe around the area, I'm back to super-sure it's here: The Phoenix and door (and maybe post) are just too obscure for a walking tour, especially if they wouldn't be seen from the sidewalk at the time
Entertaining that possibility, doesn't the dragon's mouth point to that spot if you align the image with the park?
maltedfalcon
commish wrote::
What I find hard to believe, is that after 35 years that this site wouldn't have been search already. What I would love to see is a list of where people have been. I guess the only people who might have an idea about that would be the parks department ground crew. They might be a source of information of where people may have been.
Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas.
First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas.
First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn.
I would think they would still be cool with someone probing with a soil probe, confirm or rule out this location. Heck, maybe some of the residents have insight into the park in 1980. Get a cup of coffee and walk the park with some of them.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
I would think they would still be cool with someone probing with a soil probe, confirm or rule out this location. Heck, maybe some of the residents have insight into the park in 1980. Get a cup of coffee and walk the park with some of them.
Actually quite a few came out and watched and kibbutzed one insisted that he had already dug there a discovered the treasure I was digging for, he was a little shy on details though.... LOL
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Actually quite a few came out and watched and kibbutzed one insisted that he had already dug there a discovered the treasure I was digging for, he was a little shy on details though.... LOL
Haha, that's funny. If I was there, I'd go visit. They are probably short on visitors, and if nothing else, you might get some salty old stories.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
Actually that is a brilliant idea, I would be happy to share the places I dug around but I think you will find people won't be sharing their current search areas.
First I dug at the pole (probed is a better word but a shovel was involved) at the flagpole at the senior citizens center maybe 8 years ago. I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me. The people at the senior center loved hearing about the hunt and had no problem at all with me checking the lawn.
Oh, shoot, you already hit that pole? Could you tell me more specifically where you probed? All around the base and maybe 3 feet out is where I wanted to probe.
Why did you do the senior center if you hadn't seen the Phoenix?
gManTexas
Hey, FWIW, from The Secret page 12:
Man, the unbelieving and unbelievable. Man,
who hates and fears himself and thus despises every
living thing. Man, the hewer of trees and spoiler of
streams; whose fields and roads and walls are of a
straight, unnatural geometry; who taught the very
beasts to be dumb; fierce, clever, heavy-treading
Man, who with his weapons of
forged iron
had
lately murdered, just for sport, what was believed to
be the last, and irreplaceable,
Dragon
.
gManTexas
What if "Giant Step" meant giant steppe. As in:
an extensive plain, especially one without trees
I think the Bison Paddock would qualify. Going back to my previous post about wrought iron dragons, there is mention of beasts:
Man, the unbelieving and unbelievable. Man,
who hates and fears himself and thus despises every
living thing.
Man, the hewer of trees and spoiler of
streams; whose fields and roads and walls are of a
straight, unnatural geometry; who taught the very
beasts to be dumb;
fierce, clever, heavy-treading
Man, who with his weapons of forged iron had
lately murdered, just for sport, what was believed to
be the last, and irreplaceable, Dragon.
gManTexas
I said I was going to swear off this one, but it's nagging at me. The lack of instructions and possibly missing features in the park...
Anyway, if we entertain the idea that the casque is somewhere near the Senior Center, and possibly that the dragon above the door is an inspiration, what then? Further to what I just posted about Giant Steppe being the Bison Paddock, what about Giant pole? If we look at the edge of Spreckels Lake, there is a section the juts out into the lake. Was there ever a pole there, perhaps a flagpole?
Also, thinking about the boats races, people use (or used) giant poles to retrieve their boats from the water.
All of this got me thinking about Twain's attention and the boat house. The boat house has about a gazillion squares on it, like Image 1.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@37.7702939, ... 312!8i6656
Let's say for the sake of argument, that the casque is somewhere between the boathouse and the Paddock directly adjacent to it?
Also, if we walk back the verses, how does this play out?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
In the early 80s I attended St. Anne’s School — TWO BLOCKS from Stow Lake. The lake, botanical gardens, De Young, Steinhart, Academy of Sciences and the concourse were essentially my back yard - I was there nearly every day after school. To this day, I consider myself lucky to have had such a great place to romp. I’ve seen a lot of transformations over the years… especially after the Loma Prieta Earthquake. The museums were razed and rebuilt, erosion has taken its toll on slopes, BUT the basic shape of the park: the main roads, the pathways, the smell, the way the fog feels on your skin… it is the same as it was in the late 70s and early 80s. When I walk into the park today, it’s the same sense I got back then… one of the rare gilded age landscapes we have left in this country.
To that end, here are some of my thoughts as someone who considers this park part of his DNA. Take it all with a grain of salt of course -- I hope something serves as a spark that will help one of you find the casque -- something that will be a victory for us all -- newbies and veterans alike!
IMAGE 1 OBSERVATIONS:
Symbol theories:
1) 112 + 113 = Latitude — 87 in her hair = Longitude (common agreement)
2) The upside down VI = 6th Ave entrance off of Fulton which had just been converted into a pedestrian entrance in 81 making it a brand new feature when Preiss buried the casque.
3) The Three circles in the form of a triangle are known as a TRIRATNA a Buddhist symbol also known as the "three jewels.” The Triratna is represented REPEATEDLY in the Chinese Pavilion, a structure that was erected in 81 and was also brand new when Preiss buried the casques. Also the Triratna symbol is the ONLY SYMBOL on her dress to be conclusively linked to GGP — there isn’t even a Yin Yang in the park that I know of, so make of that what you will...
4) The “Double D’s” on the bottom… there have been several theories. Here’s a new (maybe stupid) one to consider with a grain of salt: Grateful Dead. The first D doesn’t look complete… in fact it looks like a G. The Dead’s concerts in GGP are legendary — in the 80s, they were still very much a fabric of San Francisco.
5) The triangle with a dot in the middle -- the only iconic pyramid or triangle shape in GGP in 82 was the roof of the De Young, which is no longer there today.
HER HANDS / ARMS… I agree with the consensus that this is Crossover Drive. It is important to study the map. Even the contour of her hands and wrists match EXACTLY the curves in the road as it passes just west of Stow Lake. Also yes, I get that many believe the map is flipped, and maybe it is, but also watch Expedition Unknown… this is how the original was oriented. The original was also VERY dark... so stop with the photoshopping! In terms of the first printing of the book -- we're seeing EXACTLY what they intended us to see... Priess was a BIG NYC publisher. If a major piece of art was too dark in the proofs... he would have sent it back before printing.
CUFFS / SLEEVES / BLOCKS: There are many theories, but most require math and VERY SUBJECTIVE observations about how they’re placed, locations of fingers between which blocks, finger pointed up / down, the shapes being interpreted as “Square” when they are not all that way… in short, there’s a lot of random gymnastics to force an answer. If you look at it like that there are unlimited possibilities, none are clear and NONE fit neatly into a solution.
Please stand back for a moment and look at the whole chess board, take it down to it’s elements. My theory (which may not be right) feels like the most simple, reasonable version. It requires no oblique translation, no math. Simply count the squares on the cuffs she’s pointing at. One sleeve: 18. The other sleeve 20. Now look at a map — any map from any year. What is 18 and 20 around that area? Answer: 18th and 20th Avenues are DIRECTLY at her cuffs and further, her fingers are pointing EXACTLY in that zone between 18th and 20th on both sides. If you draw parallels lines from 18th and 20th across the park, you’ll have a neat strip of land that encompasses the north end of Stow Lake as well as several interesting features and possible way points around the area. There's no jumping through hoops, no convoluted reasoning to reach this theory... and I don't think it's any coincidence. So far nothing I’ve read has been a more natural fit.
DESIGN:
Take a look at the pathways around the Stow Lake boathouse — they match some of the detail in the same area of her dress especially in the Yin Yang area. I think this is somehow significant.
LINGERING IMAGE 1 QUESTIONS:
There are a couple anomalies in the image which I’ve linked to here. Overall, the pattern in JJP's work from the original publication is clear. Every clue we should be able to clearly make out with our bare eye… (not photoshop filters or extreme close ups down to the pixel). The following two links show segments where there's a notable break in the pattern… and IMO both are worth further examination from the group as a whole.
1) EAGLE?
This is in the loop of the dragon’s tail under its claws. You can make it out with your bare eye. I don’t think the “eye” feature is a printing artifact… the pattern here is broken up to bring out this feature… yet lets it blend in.
https://imgur.com/a/sNStA
2) JFK / REAGAN / FRED FLINTSTONE FACE
I don’t think this image is any of the three above. When looking at it from a different direction (see link below), I see a different face… I see a different eye. A more realistic nose position. A clear chin. Even a swept back mustache? Thoughts?
https://imgur.com/a/vPZwg
VERSE 7 OBSERVATIONS:
STONE WALL’S DOOR
I take this to be more of general meaning than others do. As you entered GGP in 82, just as you do today, much of it is surrounded by STONE WALLS… tall walls, and short walls. But don’t get locked into the idea that the stone wall’s door must to be an arch. Yes, there are bridges and tunnels in GGP with stone arches… some with barred gates (that were also there then), so it’s a possibility, but doors come in all shapes and sizes
THE AIR SMELLS SWEET
When you enter GGP, one of the most carefully landscaped parks in the world, the air does smell sweet… there are flowering vines, rose gardens, juniper hedges, honeysuckle, conservancy of flowers, botanical gardens, etc. THE PARK ITSELF SMELLS SWEET!
HIGHT POSTS ARE THREE
Consensus is Sutro Tower and I agree… in the 80s, it was even more prominent over the cityscape (many trees are higher now), but it still an enduring icon of San Francisco.
TWAIN’S ATTENTION
My first choice is the paddle boats. They were there in 81. There was also a renewed attention on Stow Lake because the Pavilion was NEW and a big deal! Permanent changes to GGP are RARE… when there’s a new feature, it is front and center in park maps, guide books, and shiny new signs pointing the way. In 81, the Huntington Falls were still broken but the paddle boats were out in force. You couldn't miss the sound of the mini paddle wheels lazily churning on the water. Their very name literally elicits a very central, universal image and essence of Mark Twain. This is an accessible clue — it’s not an obscure reference of one of the thousands of things and people that attracted Twain’s attention over his lifetime. Priess wanted us to find the casque by exploring OUTSIDE… not to be buried in research libraries for years (remember this is wayyyy pre-google / smart phone era).
POLE / STEP: I don’t have anything here to contribute. I wish I did. My greatest fear is that this final part of the solution has been removed via landscaping or erosion. I just don’t know. I would encourage serious on the ground searchers to contact the park directly… involve them, be transparent… ask if there are landscape workers / designers who were working in the early 80s. Bring them Starbucks and a muffin. They may let you access records. Sometimes just asking nicely will go a long way. Remember, GGP administration would LOVE for the casque to be discovered… they’re tired of policing rogue diggers.
Best of luck to all the searchers who will be out there this weekend! Work together, compare notes and find this thing! (I’m chasing a potty training toddler this weekend, so my treasure is something else entirely!)
This is a great post and I think everyone can appreciate your insight and efforts!
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
Cool quote and words fit which is also great. I've poured over the book, too and think there are clues within the prose.
One thing also to take into account is that Preiss was a PUBLISHER... also an author, but he was a publisher... like a TV or movie producer. While by all accounts he wrote the 12 verses himself, he hired people to write the book itself... and not just any writers -- these were some of the biggest names of the day. Sean Kelly was HUGE: National Lampoon, SNL, Emmy awards... a world class satirist -- he was an edgy BIG DEAL in lit circles in the early 80s. Ted Mann if it's the same Ted Mann I'm thinking of (BTW, I'm a TV writer, so these names are significant in my arena) is a very successful TV Writer / Producer. Priess also credits Barry Denenberg for "his editorial help, generous enthusiasm and care taking of this unusual endeavor" (Denenberg is a great author in his own right) -- apologies to Denenberg who will now no doubt be flooded with calls.
Like the conductor of a symphony, they all worked under his direction, like JJP and others with the art. Just food for thought when we're reading the prose in the book -- not just the verse.
What's up, fellow professional writer who grew up in the Bay Area!
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the profile is supposed to be a mashup of Lincoln and JFK. Just to hint at the big streets that flank GGP.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I'd be all for it if someone, ANYONE can find a profile of Kennedy that remotely resembles that rock formation. Same with Lincoln. Personally (see long post above), I do think it's a face, just not a former president.
It's Rock Hudson, you know, cuz he's made out of a rock.
drunknerds
It really doesn't look anything like JFK, huh? I think Reagan is the best match, that chin really resembles early 1980s political cartoons, but then what do we have? A really vague California indicator? This drawing is maddening
drunknerds
So Forest_Blight has posted scans that are even better than the wiki:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1264
I'd take a look, there's some crazy stuff I've never seen mentioned. FOR INSTANCE...
On the rocks over her right shoulder (our left) there are these red-headed lizard looking things. What the heck are these?
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
I never noticed the phoenix/peacock dragon, until last year when John Michaels ( podcast guy) pointed it out to me.
Yeah... John's a pretty giving guy. Have you noticed these at the Seaman's memorial in Legion?
jermajerm
"Giant pole, Giant step."
What if the repeated use of 'giant' is there to create a comparative measurement? Like take a flagpole for instance. If a 'giant pole' were simply a 40 foot flagpole then we could assume that the 'giant step' we needed to make would be a 40 foot distance from that flagpole.
JamesV
jermajerm wrote::
"Giant pole, Giant step."
I even spent a couple hours last year searching for monuments to famous "Poles" like Taddeus Kosciusko.
hxxp://www.polboston.com/taddeus_kosciuszko.htm
. When you approach these verses with an open mind, the possibilities are literally endless-- polar exploration, racing positions, etc. Or who knows, this could simply be referring to some kind of standalone tower somewhere near the dig site.
gManTexas
If we assume for a second that the jewel location on the Images is the burial spot (still iffy IMHO), then have a look at this comparison I drew out:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzj9fow2rdlwc ... 6.jpg?dl=0
After staring at Image 1 and getting frustrated with all of the various attempts to find a suitable explanation for Giant pole, Giant step I've come back to the railing with the curled ends. Can everyone chime in and explain why the railing is not the Giant pole? Has the area above the staircase been thoroughly investigated? Up the rocks and behind that tree toward Stow Lake.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7697669 ... 312!8i6656
It seems strange to me that many people that grew up near GGP and others that have a lot of knowledge of the park are unable to find the answers.
treetops
A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered:
-The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework
-Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998
-Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust
Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing
(Source: Christopher Pollock,
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories
)
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered:
-The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework
-Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998
-Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust
Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing
(Source: Christopher Pollock,
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories
)
Just did some googling and the 1979 movie Time after Time popped up. It's set in 1979 San Fransico. If anyone want to watch it, some clues might pop out. There are scenes in GGP.
Here's a review with images:
hxxp://www.nortonsmoviemaps.com/blog/archives/09-2016
treetops
Unknown:
Later, in 1963, the building was decommissioned by the Police Department.
The Recreation and Park Department approved a new structure for
senior
citizens in 1969 [...] but the 100-member John McLaren Society, a watchdog group against park development, protested that decision. The abandoned police building became the resolution to the dispute, and the renovated building was officially inaugurated as the
Senior
Center on July 31, 1980...
For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the
senior
center, also from this
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park
book by Christopher Pollock:
So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active
Senior
Center.
treetops
Unknown:
Later, in 1963, the building was decommissioned by the Police Department.
The Recreation and Park Department approved a new structure for senior citizens in 1969 [...] but the 100-member John McLaren Society, a watchdog group against park development, protested that decision. The abandoned police building became the resolution to the dispute, and the renovated building was officially inaugurated as the Senior Center on July 31, 1980...
For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park
book by Christopher Pollock:
So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the senior center, also from this
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park
book by Christopher Pollock:
So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active Senior Center.
Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds?
Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
For drunknerds in particular, I've got different information on the
senior
center, also from this
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park
book by Christopher Pollock:
So this building being an active police facility when Preiss would have been in San Francisco seems not to be the case. Depending on the likely date of his visit, would have been undergoing renovations or an active
Senior
Center.
Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds?
Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
So as you may know, I'm tunneling the
senior
center pretty hard as the location for this. I see the phoenix statue as an exact match, the doorway (in 1980 was a police academy and almost definitely still had the thin bars we see in old photos) is the most exact match I've seen, by far, and we might even have a match for the post.
The question lies, where do we take our giant step from the giant pole right outside? The part of the verse right before this is "in jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's attention," which has been maddeningly difficult to solve.
I was thinking about the most simple solve: What's the one object people most associate with Mark Twain? Probably a pen or a newspaper, those are his two things: He wrote satire and worked for newspapers. I think those two objects are the only direct answers that are really good: Many people had mentioned Fulton street, which is also good, but I don't like it anymore because: A. Fulton was a person, and Fulton street isn't really an "object," and B. Everyone loves Fulton, there's a Fulton street everywhere, it's not just Twain.
So I'm thinking the solution is "take a step towards the nearest newspaper box." Now, we live in a different time, but I remember GGP in the early 80s, and there were always newspaper boxes next to bus stops. There's a bus stop right outside the
senior
center. I surmise that we stand at the pole, take a giant step towards the bus stop, and dig.
Of course, I need to verify the bus stop was even there in 1980, or maybe even find a photo or map telling me where the newspaper box in the area was. But I think, no matter where the solution, a newspaper/newspaper box plays into it. If I do find good evidence of a newspaper box within sight of the post in 1980, I'm going to write up a solve (and mention Malted Falcon's technique for leaving no trace of digging) and ask for permission when I get to SF in September. Feel free to beat me to it, but be sure to ask permission.
Wow, nice job gang, this stuff is so useful. I'm going to unpack it in a few hours when I get off work.
In the meantime, here's something I posted in the wrong thread, it's about SF:
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
So as you may know, I'm tunneling the senior center pretty hard as the location for this. I see the phoenix statue as an exact match, the doorway (in 1980 was a police academy and almost definitely still had the thin bars we see in old photos) is the most exact match I've seen, by far, and we might even have a match for the post.
The question lies, where do we take our giant step from the giant pole right outside? The part of the verse right before this is "in jewel's direction lies an object of Twain's attention," which has been maddeningly difficult to solve.
I was thinking about the most simple solve: What's the one object people most associate with Mark Twain? Probably a pen or a newspaper, those are his two things: He wrote satire and worked for newspapers. I think those two objects are the only direct answers that are really good: Many people had mentioned Fulton street, which is also good, but I don't like it anymore because: A. Fulton was a person, and Fulton street isn't really an "object," and B. Everyone loves Fulton, there's a Fulton street everywhere, it's not just Twain.
So I'm thinking the solution is "take a step towards the nearest newspaper box." Now, we live in a different time, but I remember GGP in the early 80s, and there were always newspaper boxes next to bus stops. There's a bus stop right outside the senior center. I surmise that we stand at the pole, take a giant step towards the bus stop, and dig.
Of course, I need to verify the bus stop was even there in 1980, or maybe even find a photo or map telling me where the newspaper box in the area was. But I think, no matter where the solution, a newspaper/newspaper box plays into it. If I do find good evidence of a newspaper box within sight of the post in 1980, I'm going to write up a solve (and mention Malted Falcon's technique for leaving no trace of digging) and ask for permission when I get to SF in September. Feel free to beat me to it, but be sure to ask permission.
Wow, nice job gang, this stuff is so useful. I'm going to unpack it in a few hours when I get off work.
In the meantime, here's something I posted in the wrong thread, it's about SF:
mindydaile
I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper.
treetops
mindydaile wrote::
I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper.
Those paddleboats jumped to mind for me as well. However, I'm reluctant to accept them because "an object" as opposed to objects and there are dozens of them, located at different points around the lake throughout the day. "First across in jewel's direction is an object of Twain's attention" makes me really want to see a fixed, unique object that, combined with "Ace is high, running north" and "giant pole, giant step" can get me to a square foot of ground, or at least within sight of a strong match to some element of image 1.
In his prose, Twain does certainly use the word "attention" in the sense of having his narrator's focus drawn to a person or object. You can google this quite handily in his works on Project Gutenberg. An example search would be:
site:www.gutenberg.org twain "my attention"
While I doubt that some obscure passage from one of Twain's works is
required
for the solve, based on what we've seen with excerpts from
Abroad in America
I would not be shocked to find a Twain "Easter Egg" confirming the object. This could even be from one of the many 1970s-80s books about Twain or San Francisco.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
If we assume for a second that the jewel location on the Images is the burial spot (still iffy IMHO), then have a look at this comparison I drew out:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzj9fow2rdlwc ... 6.jpg?dl=0
After staring at Image 1 and getting frustrated with all of the various attempts to find a suitable explanation for Giant pole, Giant step I've come back to the railing with the curled ends. Can everyone chime in and explain why the railing is not the Giant pole? Has the area above the staircase been thoroughly investigated? Up the rocks and behind that tree toward Stow Lake.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7697669 ... 312!8i6656
It seems strange to me that many people that grew up near GGP and others that have a lot of knowledge of the park are unable to find the answers.
For me, it was a few differences:
The notch above the spiral is tilted on the rose, but not on the railing:
Why wouldn't JJP just make those thorns horizontal, for a match.
Also, the railing spiral ends in a nice, thick circle. The rose ends by tapering off.
Throw in that the pole spiral is pretty thick whereas the rose stem is brushstroke-thin, I don't think it's a match at all.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Let's entertain that the Police Academy was still referred to that way, or perhaps the old police academy, in 1980-82. Would it make sense, that when BP visited, which we don't know when (between 1980-1982) that he could bury something by the flagpole in front of the building? Maybe during reconstruction of the grounds?
Here is a Master Plan document that shows the various improvements and changes over time:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/ParkHistory.pdf
I think it fits perfectly: The place was probably still labeled as a police academy, with the bars on the doors, but was in transition and so was not in use by anyone. Throw in the brush that isn't there now, and that his wife might have been around for a lookout, and I'd say it's way easier than we initially thought.
I love your ability to pull up all these old photos
drunknerds
mindydaile wrote::
I still lean toward the paddleboats in the lake as being the object of Twain's attention. I associate Twain with the Mississippi River and boats far more than I would a newspaper.
Oh, yeah, the Mississippi, that's a good one too.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
Wow there's so much. I really think we could pick a spot anywhere and reverse-engineer something that's of Twain's attention. Unless it's a huge one, like riverboat, the Mississip, jumping frogs, or a San Francisco newspaper, I don't think we'll ever get anywhere.
erexere
I've felt for the longest time that the best use of the line "Near ace is high" is to think of the number that beats a king. Ace's are 1st in one sense, but also like the number 14 in another if you think of J-11, Q-12, K-13, then A-14.
Things that might work:
a golf course, the 13th, 14th or 15th holes, since 13 and 15 are near to the number 14. Or the casque is simply near the 14th hole.
a building that is 14 floors high.
a street. 1st or 13th/14th/15th streets.
drunknerds
erexere wrote::
I've felt for the longest time that the best use of the line "Near ace is high" is to think of the number that beats a king. Ace's are 1st in one sense, but also like the number 14 in another if you think of J-11, Q-12, K-13, then A-14.
Things that might work:
a golf course, the 13th, 14th or 15th holes, since 13 and 15 are near to the number 14. Or the casque is simply near the 14th hole.
a building that is 14 floors high.
a street. 1st or 13th/14th/15th streets.
I'm pretty convinced it's highway 1 through the park:
- It crosses the park going east before running north (running north but first across)
- It's elevated in relation to the surrounding park (sounds from the sky)
- Ace is high: Ace=1,
high
way
Wonder if we can spot that weird highway in the art, too.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
For me, it was a few differences:
The notch above the spiral is tilted on the rose, but not on the railing:
Why wouldn't JJP just make those thorns horizontal, for a match.
Also, the railing spiral ends in a nice, thick circle. The rose ends by tapering off.
Throw in that the pole spiral is pretty thick whereas the rose stem is brushstroke-thin, I don't think it's a match at all.
Too obvious perhaps? Like the deleted fleur-de-lis in Image 9.
drunknerds
Spirals are a very common artistic shape. We've found a zillion spirals in SF, including ones around the Phoenix sculpture.
I see what you mean, but transforming a spiral makes it utterly unrecognizable. It's like painting a square as a rectangle, to me.
fox
treetops wrote::
A few Golden Gate Park landmarks that were apparently there during the 80s, but have since been removed or significantly altered:
-The Ghirardelli Card Shelter used to have glass and brick walls; now just an open framework
-Haight Street gate was removed from 1979 through 1998
-Entrance to the Shakespeare Garden had walkway and the wrought-iron entrance gates replaced or added circa 1991; the original threshold stone was moved to the foot of the Shakespeare bust
Anyone have memories, or photos even, of what these looked like back then? The card shelter is especially interesting because of the whole "Ace is High" thing
(Source: Christopher Pollock,
San Francisco's Golden Gate Park: A Thousand and Seventeen Acres of Stories
)
This whole Ghirardelli Card Shelter is quite intriguing yet I can find no information on it. I would sure love to see what it looked like in the 80's.
treetops
Unknown:
The card players' shelter in Golden Gate Park, a favorite haunt of the street people of the Haight-Ashbury but an embarrassment to tourists and a headache for police, has been razed.
The three-sided brick structure near the park's Stanyan Street entrance was leveled by a bulldozer this week.
It had been regarded by cops and park officials as an "eyesore" hangout for winos and petty criminals. But for Linda Simpson, it used to be the only home she had.
"My Jamaican husband, Tarzan, and I lived there three years," said Simpson, a heavy-set woman who was drinking wine out of a bottle in a paper bag.
"Everything we owned was in shopping carts - one for clothes, another for cooking pots, another for food, another for empty beer cans and soda bottles. We used to sweep up the place every day, twice a day, in fact. Last December we even had a Christmas tree in there, with a beer can on top for a star. Nobody had any money, but there was a real Christmas feeling."
"I've been coming here since '63," said her friend Dorothy Campbell, who wore a black beret and called herself a "hip-ette."
"A lot of people who hung out there in the daytime were elderly white guys who played dominoes and pinochle. It was a safe place at night. People used to stay in groups, and nobody would bother you."
Both women complained of increased police harassment in the past month, both in the park and on Haight Street.
"They called this place an `eyesore,' but what the cops are really trying to do is get rid of folks like us," said Campbell. "You notice how few people there are in the park today. They're probably just sitting in doorways on Haight Street, with no place to go."
In contrast, park gardener Mike Collins said he is glad to see the shelter go.
He said he was one of several workers who petitioned the Recreation and Park Commission to tear down the 53-year-old building after an assault on a gardener who was knocked unconscious and robbed.
"I wish you could have seen how filthy it was," said Collins, wrinkling his nose. "The winos used it as a toilet, and the place stank of urine."
Three other women, Linda, Myrna and Robin, all so financial ly strapped that they have been camping out in the park, said they avoided walking near the shelter for fear of rowdies.
"At night there was a lot of screaming and people throwing bottles at each other," said Linda.
"I'm glad it's gone," said Robin. "Just a lot of riff raff, just winos and drug dealers."
Police Sergeant James Pera of Park Station said 100 complaints had been received this year about thefts, assaults, concealed weapons, drunks, drug dealing and intimidation of tourists and children near the shelter.
"Those winos made a garbage can out of the whole area," said Pera.
Jim Rogers, the park's assistant superintendent, said the shelter was erected in April 1933 as a gift to the city from Domingo Ghirardelli, of the chocolate family.
Rogers said the area will be planted with rhododendrons and a few picnic tables will be installed. Plans call for a new gazebo-like shelter for card and dominoes players to be built about a mile away, near Fulton Street and Third Avenue.
"The cost will be about $47,000, and we're going to recycle the original ironwork and the Ghirardelli plaque," said Rogers.
Caption: PHOTOLinda Simpson pointed to former location of park shelter, where she lived for three years / BY DEANNE FITZMAURICE/THE CHRONICLE
Here's what I've got so far, from an August 2, 1986 SF Chronicle article:
It looks like this former shelter was in a different part of the park even, at the extreme eastern end. As described in the article, it sounds like a place I hope Preiss would steer clear of as a burial site. It's really a question of how much difference five years made.
gManTexas
Good detective work. I was thinking that the location probably ruled it out, but that article kinda seals the deal.
Goonie68
I am just curious how man people on these boards think that Shake spears Garden has a major role in this puzzle? I think it does but would like to hear from people in the hunt.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
I am just curious how man people on these boards think that Shake spears Garden has a major role in this puzzle? I think it does but would like to hear from people in the hunt.
My gut is telling me no, but my head is saying that BP, being a literary guy, probably thought it was important. The watch on the pedestal sure looks like the sundial in the garden.
erexere
Shakespeare? No.
The Dragon from Far Cathay. His pearl. The strange people. I think it has some kind of far distance arragement of landmarks, but wherever it leads, I don't see any parallels that would sensibly include Sir W.S.
In the past, I've gone full DaVinci Code with the SF map, but drawing a large upside down crucifix to connect to Diablo Point just doesn't feel right either.
Goonie68
Ok how about the table and the clock does that represent the sun dial in the Garden?? Strong or weak??
erexere
Shouldn't we expect the strength of a visual clue to depend largely on the reasons that brought you to the site in the first place?
One might approach the puzzle in the broadest sense to include all spaces in the SF area, but examples taken from puzzles in Cleveland and Chicago may have taught us to constrain our approaches. We(rather johann) considered the Greek Gardens for obvious cultural reasons. Chicago's Grant Park makes sense in that the likeness of Ullyses Grant is merged with the giants face. Some clues were found at a good distance from the treasures but that seems to be more to do with iconic or familiar city references and than a straight sensible path connected those landmarks, i.e. Terminal Tower or Chicago Water Tower.
What obvious landmarks in SF might afford us the same opportunity? The Trans America Pyramid? The Golden Gate Bridge? The Ghirardelli sign? Coit Tower? If something like that gets you to look at a sundial in a park by a straightforward route, maybe you are on the right track.
treetops
Goonie68 wrote::
Ok how about the table and the clock does that represent the sun dial in the Garden?? Strong or weak??
Frustrating, because it would have been so easy, and consistent with practice elsewhere in the book, to have the table base in image 1 match the sundial's base, and it just doesn't.
If someone can show that the sundial was replaced at the same time the gates and paving stones were installed, then maybe we'll have something.
meatypuffs
This might be a shitpost, but I'd like to point out a couple things in Image 1 that I have been frustrated by and that I haven't seen much discussion of. The two areas are circled in the image below:
1) The "hump" in the border of th design on the dress near the Dragon's wings appears deliberate, maybe representing a hill. With its proximity to Strawberry Hill and the yin-yang symbol, perhaps it's the other island to the east of the Strawberry Hill island in Stow Lake.
2) The lower circle is a portion of the dress where the border of the design slopes outward to make space for the twisting of the dragon's tail. This too seems deliberate, since no where else on the dress does the tail impact the outside border of the design on the dress.
I haven't been able to locate what either of these two things represent (if anything), but I'm hoping mentioning them here will maybe spark something for someone else. With as much detail as this Image has compared to many of the others, I'm hoping there's plenty of things hiding in plain sight that we haven't been able to piece together yet to give us a firm dig site.
drunknerds
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing:
37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the
senior
center is.
If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.
drunknerds
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing:
37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the senior center is.
If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.
Hirudiniforme
erexere wrote::
Looks forced.
How so?
meatypuffs
drunknerds wrote::
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park.
As I understand it, the theory is the arms represent "crossover drive", so things the map gets moved up and flipped to match the arms and the flair on the dress and most of what is west of crossover drive isn't represented in the Image. Again, it's all a theory until someone digs the damn thing up. Even then, we're still speculating at what some of the things in the Cleveland and Chicago verses and images could represent so many years later.
The
Senior
Center is my favorite location for a dig right now. Your images line up pretty nicely to support that theory, if that's what she is pointing at. The curvature of her thumb and index finger on her right hand seems to outline Middle Drive West and Metson Road pretty closely too.
meatypuffs
drunknerds wrote::
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park.
As I understand it, the theory is the arms represent "crossover drive", so things the map gets moved up and flipped to match the arms and the flair on the dress and most of what is west of crossover drive isn't represented in the Image. Again, it's all a theory until someone digs the damn thing up. Even then, we're still speculating at what some of the things in the Cleveland and Chicago verses and images could represent so many years later.
The Senior Center is my favorite location for a dig right now. Your images line up pretty nicely to support that theory, if that's what she is pointing at. The curvature of her thumb and index finger on her right hand seems to outline Middle Drive West and Metson Road pretty closely too.
jermajerm
I've been having this feeling that we are being misled by "object of Twains attention" and I think I've come across some level of connection.
Object of Twain's attention has (possibly) two meanings here.
1. Theres evidence that Twain based Sawyer and Finn on Quixote and Sancho. "He said if I warn’t so ignorant, but had read a book called Don Quixote, I would know without asking." This is a quote straight from The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. In any case, Twain spent a lot of time with that book and allowing it to shape his characters. It was on his mind as he wrote.
2. The Cervantes statue. If we look at this statue we see Don and Sancho looking up at a bust of Cervantes with rapt attention and admiration. Here twain simply means 2 as in it's archaic sense. Cervantes is the object of twos (twains) attention.
We have overlapping meanings putting us at a singular location.
drunknerds
Ha, looks like we both came up with the same brainstorm, jerm: something that points to Twain in two different ways.
We've got another landmark that does it, will post after work.
drunknerds
So, Gmantexas and I have been scouring photos to make a solve which might have legs. Naturally, we built this on the shoulders of the giants who researched before us, but there's some new stuff I hope you find exciting. Or at least entertaining. Check the end for a great SF historical photo resource and ways you can help (besides, of course, giving your constructive criticism, which is always welcome.)
Location: Golden Gate Park
Lat-longitude and Golden Gate Park map are all we need to get us to the park.
This one's a walking tour!
At Stone Wall's door, the air smells sweet
Shakespeare's Garden. Stone wall with a famous door in it in GGP. Surrounded by gardens.
Not Far Away, High Posts are Three
Sutro Tower. Kind of a Gimme because antennae on a hill can be seen from most parts of a city.
Sounds from the sky, near Ace is high. Running North
Ace=1. High=Highway. Highway 1 is elevated if you walk towards the north end it from Shakespeare's garden.
While walking there from Shakespeare's garden using the route shown, we go down the stairs with our famous rail (at B in the map above):
Past the Chinese Pavilion (Yin Yang on her smock in Image 1)
Around Stowe Lake, seeing Huntington Falls:
Strawberry Hill (the strawberry in her smock under her arms)
and the ruins of Sweeny observatory (the 11 planets in the sky).
Now we're at C. We still have to make our way up and around to where highway 1 runs north out of the park.
But first across
Triple meaning: Prayerbook Cross is at D.
Crossover drive is right there. Plus it's where highway 1 turns E-W while crossing the park.
Education and Justice for all to see
Which way now?
But where? For a long time we've been hitting our head against the wall with this clue:
In jewel's direction
Lies an object of Twain's attention.
Twain went everywhere and wrote about everything. Preiss had to have known this. So, in order to prevent ambiguity, maybe he'd pick somewhere that has TWO things that are hugely associated with Twain. I surveyed a ton of people, and overwhelmingly 5 things were repeated when I asked, "what do you most associate with Twain:"
- He wrote satire
- He loved boats. Like a lot.
- He wrote Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer
- He wrote for newspapers
- He loved the Mississippi River.
Immediately adjacent to the senior center/police academy is Spreckels lake(E on the map). In fact, it could be seen as the only thing of note next to the sr. center.
- Spreckels lake was a man made lake made for fans of
boats
to race their models. Lots of boats there.
- Spreckels lake was named after a man who owned the
newspaper
Mark Twain got his start writing for
Immediately after Spreckels lake, we arrive at a police academy (F on the map). It's at 37th street (37 in her hair)
Leading evidence is that this police academy closed in 1980 and got turned into a senior center. So it is quite possible that, when Preiss hid the casque, there was no civilian foot traffic, and someone in a hard hat and reflective vest wouldn't seem odd at all. Plus his then-gf (who became his wife) could have played lookout. If I can stumble in Golden Gate park on hardcore drugs for hours at a time without police attention, someone sober could easily dig a hole and not be bothered.
Here's the top of the door today... note the phoenix statues above the door:
Now, we turn to the image for dig confirmers. There are a bunch!
- The Dragon in the image matches the phoenix above the police academy door in five different ways. Weird ways, like having
two different-sized fangs and a stubby chin.
Also note the weirdly curved tail, and the flowers in the design. Roses?
- The post the dragon matches is a match at 5/6 points, and only a little narrower than it should be at the sixth point.
- The door matches the one in the image. Especially if you are standing at the flagpole- Notches in the arch, smooth sides, and bricks on the bottom.
There aren't bars there, now, but the police academy picture above, and this one from 1965 show there were bars.
Not how pronounced the spaces are between the bricks at the bottom, just like in Image 1.
While no photo evidence has been found, the bars had to have been there in 1980: SFPD had incidents all through the 70s of radicals rolling into police stations and opening fire.
All of this stuff has been here for much longer than 1980
Further confirmation of this spot as the dig site: If you overlay Golden Gate Park's map over her smock, her finger points towards 37th street and Fulton, where the police academy is located:
So where exactly do we dig?
Giant Pole, giant step
To the place the jewel is kept
Ah, there's a huge flagpole there that was definitely in the same place in 1980, as this photo from 1941 shows:
Facing the door from the sidewalk, turn towards the giantpole and take a giant step
Other stuff:
- Can someone get a more exact match for her hairline & Spreckels Lake, North lake in 1980 and the pelican, and does anyone see the old, blanket covered woman with a fountain pen?
If that retaining wall in the SE wasn't there, her hairline seems a pretty good match for Spreckels lake. I know people like it as the bridge coming in from the headlands, but that seems really obscure and redundant.
North Lake people have said the pelican blue blob matched both the south side in 1980 and the north side in 1903. I could only find a map of 1903:
On the lighter side, We can't stop seeing a wrinkled, sitting old person covered in a blanket here:
A denizen of the senior center?
- This is a great resource for digital photos of old-timey SF. The women graduating the police academy photo above was found here, and I don't think it's readily available by trying the usual avenues on Google Image Search
hxxp://sflib1.sfpl.org:82
Our current main issues:
1 Why is there no pole in Image 1? If it is the major clue shouldn't it appear somewhere? This might be our missing final "step" for the dig mentioned above. Maybe it's in the clock because, again, that hasn't been used yet.
2 For a pole, the flagpole is pretty giant. For a flagpole, it's pretty average-sized, though
3 Why the flip is this so hard for a pearl? I mean you can get a pearl for cheap!!
drunknerds
So, Gmantexas and I have been scouring photos to make a solve which might have legs. Naturally, we built this on the shoulders of the giants who researched before us, but there's some new stuff I hope you find exciting. Or at least entertaining. Check the end for a great SF historical photo resource and ways you can help (besides, of course, giving your constructive criticism, which is always welcome.)
Location: Golden Gate Park
Lat-longitude and Golden Gate Park map are all we need to get us to the park.
This one's a walking tour!
At Stone Wall's door, the air smells sweet
Shakespeare's Garden. Stone wall with a famous door in it in GGP. Surrounded by gardens.
Not Far Away, High Posts are Three
Sutro Tower. Kind of a Gimme because antennae on a hill can be seen from most parts of a city.
Sounds from the sky, near Ace is high. Running North
Ace=1. High=Highway. Highway 1 is elevated if you walk towards the north end it from Shakespeare's garden.
While walking there from Shakespeare's garden using the route shown, we go down the stairs with our famous rail (at B in the map above):
Past the Chinese Pavilion (Yin Yang on her smock in Image 1)
Around Stowe Lake, seeing Huntington Falls:
Strawberry Hill (the strawberry in her smock under her arms)
and the ruins of Sweeny observatory (the 11 planets in the sky).
Now we're at C. We still have to make our way up and around to where highway 1 runs north out of the park.
But first across
Triple meaning: Prayerbook Cross is at D.
Crossover drive is right there. Plus it's where highway 1 turns E-W while crossing the park.
Education and Justice for all to see
Which way now?
But where? For a long time we've been hitting our head against the wall with this clue:
In jewel's direction
Lies an object of Twain's attention.
Twain went everywhere and wrote about everything. Preiss had to have known this. So, in order to prevent ambiguity, maybe he'd pick somewhere that has TWO things that are hugely associated with Twain. I surveyed a ton of people, and overwhelmingly 5 things were repeated when I asked, "what do you most associate with Twain:"
- He wrote satire
- He loved boats. Like a lot.
- He wrote Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer
- He wrote for newspapers
- He loved the Mississippi River.
Immediately adjacent to the
senior
center/police academy is Spreckels lake(E on the map). In fact, it could be seen as the only thing of note next to the sr. center.
- Spreckels lake was a man made lake made for fans of
boats
to race their models. Lots of boats there.
- Spreckels lake was named after a man who owned the
newspaper
Mark Twain got his start writing for
Immediately after Spreckels lake, we arrive at a police academy (F on the map). It's at 37th street (37 in her hair)
Leading evidence is that this police academy closed in 1980 and got turned into a
senior
center. So it is quite possible that, when Preiss hid the casque, there was no civilian foot traffic, and someone in a hard hat and reflective vest wouldn't seem odd at all. Plus his then-gf (who became his wife) could have played lookout. If I can stumble in Golden Gate park on hardcore drugs for hours at a time without police attention, someone sober could easily dig a hole and not be bothered.
Here's the top of the door today... note the phoenix statues above the door:
Now, we turn to the image for dig confirmers. There are a bunch!
- The Dragon in the image matches the phoenix above the police academy door in five different ways. Weird ways, like having
two different-sized fangs and a stubby chin.
Also note the weirdly curved tail, and the flowers in the design. Roses?
- The post the dragon matches is a match at 5/6 points, and only a little narrower than it should be at the sixth point.
- The door matches the one in the image. Especially if you are standing at the flagpole- Notches in the arch, smooth sides, and bricks on the bottom.
There aren't bars there, now, but the police academy picture above, and this one from 1965 show there were bars.
Not how pronounced the spaces are between the bricks at the bottom, just like in Image 1.
While no photo evidence has been found, the bars had to have been there in 1980: SFPD had incidents all through the 70s of radicals rolling into police stations and opening fire.
All of this stuff has been here for much longer than 1980
Further confirmation of this spot as the dig site: If you overlay Golden Gate Park's map over her smock, her finger points towards 37th street and Fulton, where the police academy is located:
So where exactly do we dig?
Giant Pole, giant step
To the place the jewel is kept
Ah, there's a huge flagpole there that was definitely in the same place in 1980, as this photo from 1941 shows:
Facing the door from the sidewalk, turn towards the giantpole and take a giant step
Other stuff:
- Can someone get a more exact match for her hairline & Spreckels Lake, North lake in 1980 and the pelican, and does anyone see the old, blanket covered woman with a fountain pen?
If that retaining wall in the SE wasn't there, her hairline seems a pretty good match for Spreckels lake. I know people like it as the bridge coming in from the headlands, but that seems really obscure and redundant.
North Lake people have said the pelican blue blob matched both the south side in 1980 and the north side in 1903. I could only find a map of 1903:
On the lighter side, We can't stop seeing a wrinkled, sitting old person covered in a blanket here:
A denizen of the
senior
center?
- This is a great resource for digital photos of old-timey SF. The women graduating the police academy photo above was found here, and I don't think it's readily available by trying the usual avenues on Google Image Search
hxxp://sflib1.sfpl.org:82
Our current main issues:
1 Why is there no pole in Image 1? If it is the major clue shouldn't it appear somewhere? This might be our missing final "step" for the dig mentioned above. Maybe it's in the clock because, again, that hasn't been used yet.
2 For a pole, the flagpole is pretty giant. For a flagpole, it's pretty average-sized, though
3 Why the flip is this so hard for a pearl? I mean you can get a pearl for cheap!!
drunknerds
More old-timey pictures of the pole, too if you can find them. Looks like it used to have some weird casing/design on the bottom.
jermajerm
Awesome. Thats some good light reading. One major thing that stands out to me is that Sweeney observatory never housed a telescope, it was more of a "Climb up here and look at the city" kind of observatory.
maltedfalcon
and the area around the flag pole in front of the
senior
center has been searched.
searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.
maltedfalcon
and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched.
searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.
Goonie68
Will a metal detector pick up the casque??
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Will a metal detector pick up the casque??
see the casque 13 thread... it would need to be a very good metal detector, most have a depth limit of 6-8 inches...
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
and the area around the flag pole in front of the
senior
center has been searched.
searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.
Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort.
- What is "in front of?" Do you mean "by the flag pole towards the
senior
center?" There was a bush there for many years, so there's a chance he would have had to avoid that section.
- Did you "search" the posted solve area, which is not next to the flag pole, but more towards the sidewalk? That's one of the new parts I'm excited about: For years we've been trying to figure out in which direction to step away from the pole, but the lack of direction directly implies the pole is our final guidepost and we should be taking a step towards it.
I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
and the area around the flag pole in front of the senior center has been searched.
searched = dug/probed/scanned with a metal detector.
Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort.
- What is "in front of?" Do you mean "by the flag pole towards the senior center?" There was a bush there for many years, so there's a chance he would have had to avoid that section.
- Did you "search" the posted solve area, which is not next to the flag pole, but more towards the sidewalk? That's one of the new parts I'm excited about: For years we've been trying to figure out in which direction to step away from the pole, but the lack of direction directly implies the pole is our final guidepost and we should be taking a step towards it.
I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Good to know. I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless, so I wasn't sure if I should discount that effort.
I really think the lack of direction in the final couplet indicates we should be stepping toward the pole from somewhere at the sr center.
I stepped away from the pole towards the street
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
I saw you say you had probed the area with a probe and a shovel, but I also recall you recently saying that probing is useless,
I believe probing is useless, That doesn't mean I haven't tried it.
The only time probing would be useful is if the casque is intact and in its box, and the soil was extremely soft.
Only then could you probe enough that you could determine the size and shape of the target (square) 5x5 inches.
anything else requires you to dig to be sure. and if the box is broken all bets are off.
IF the soil has any kind of strength it would be possible to push a probe through the casque without realizing it was there.
Still this is actually the kind of scenario I created casque 13 to try out for sure...
drunknerds
Thanks, Malted. Great stuff, as always.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
I believe probing is useless, That doesn't mean I haven't tried it.
The only time probing would be useful is if the casque is intact and in its box, and the soil was extremely soft.
Only then could you probe enough that you could determine the size and shape of the target (square) 5x5 inches.
anything else requires you to dig to be sure. and if the box is broken all bets are off.
IF the soil has any kind of strength it would be possible to push a probe through the casque without realizing it was there.
Still this is actually the kind of scenario I created casque 13 to try out for sure...
I don't have my data with my, and this is probably just retreading, but I believe the only thing that would damage a casque without direct contact is a freeze. SF's had a few freezes in the last 35 years. Still, it couldn't have been as hard as cleveland (and the cleveland casque had wayyyyy less surrounding soil to absorb the freeze), and they still pulled like 2/3 of that plexiglass box out intact.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
but I believe the only thing that would damage a casque without direct contact is a freeze.
Nothing says no direct contact.
a trencher,
an earthquake,
surface pressure (a vehicle driving over)
a backhoe,
new construction
roots,
gophers
a gardner.
Being a casque in the ground is a dangerous thing...
Goonie68
Matledfalcon have you dug anywhere near Shakespeare's garden, not in the garden but maybe area's around it? Just curious?
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Matledfalcon have you dug anywhere near Shakespeare's garden, not in the garden but maybe area's around it? Just curious?
rose garden yes, shakespeare garden no
Also remember in 2005 major changes in that area.
maltedfalcon
See that mound in the lower right of the corner? that is all the sidewalks and walkways in the area. They were plowed up and replaced in 2005 to make them all ADA accessible, that includes the walkways through the Shakespeare garden and all the areas in front of the band shell So if the casque was there, in this picture it is probably in the lower right hand corner... LOL
Goonie68
Thanks for your insight! Very valuable!!!!
Goonie68
Disregard the FB post, I got my answer. Thanks!
Goonie68
I can't seem to see any threads on the number "38" that number within the hair. Any theory's that it could be a 36?
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I can't seem to see any threads on the number "38" that number within the hair. Any theory's that it could be a 36?
sure looks like an 8 to me.
Goonie68
So no really hard evidence that 38 is a clue? I mean the coordinates are 37 122 and 38 does not show up? The reason I say this is that the loop on the top is smaller then the bottom loop usually the loops are the same when writing an 8 ? Just my opinion..
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
usually the loops are the same when writing an 8 ? Just my opinion..
Look at that 8 the upper loop is smaller...
Goonie68
My argument for the # 36 is that, in my theory, My starting point is 37 ave, senior center, from there in the verse it does not tell you which way to go left, right, up, down, sideways? 36 avenue is one block down from the senior center and it is the entry way to the park. It make sense to me that this clue gives you a direct place to enter the park.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
My argument for the # 36 is that, in my theory, My starting point is 37 ave, senior center, from there in the verse it does not tell you which way to go left, right, up, down, sideways? 36 avenue is one block down from the senior center and it is the entry way to the park. It make sense to me that this clue gives you a direct place to enter the park.
Logically that makes sense, but I'm sure the 38 is the lat/lon,
However isn't that the entrance to chain of lakes drive?
When I worked that area here is the link I thought connected it for me. This is from a 1982 tourist map of ggpark.
The area has been bulldozed and changed a lot but back then...
erexere
The Senior Center still doesn't interest me. I think people are shoehorning. We all have that tendency, so I understand, it's just nothing really seems to fit in a definitive way. Making things work to fit a desirable outcome is a waste of time (unless it just happens to be right).
I've scrapped most all of my notions about how SF was planned. What if the Trans America Pyramid is the starting point? Heading west takes you directly through a Chinatown district. I like the road name that takes you on that path: Clay St. An interesting footnote might be made about ancient pottery made from clay. One of the first methods to make pottery involved rolling the clay into snake like coils as opposed to more modern methods like using a wheel. I even wondered if the clock on the center of the table is a subtle reference to a potters wheel, in which case the clay would be in the middle so it could rotate evenly. Looking at the interesting grayish textured pattern of the dragon on the woman's robe, it also reminds me of working on a block of clay.
So taking Clay St. to it's termination we find ourselves at Arguello St. Nearby is the Emanu-El temple. I feel like this is a good track, that is IF we are meant to start at the TAP building similar to how Cleveland seemed to have the Terminal Tower in mind as a route anchor.
So what's the best next step from Arguello St.?
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
Damn thing will probably turn out to be another of JJP's drawings that Byron scribbled over.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
The Senior Center still doesn't interest me. I think people are shoehorning. We all have that tendency, so I understand, it's just nothing really seems to fit in a definitive way. Making things work to fit a desirable outcome is a waste of time (unless it just happens to be right).
I've scrapped most all of my notions about how SF was planned. What if the Trans America Pyramid is the starting point? Heading west takes you directly through a Chinatown district. I like the road name that takes you on that path: Clay St. An interesting footnote might be made about ancient pottery made from clay. One of the first methods to make pottery involved rolling the clay into snake like coils as opposed to more modern methods like using a wheel. I even wondered if the clock on the center of the table is a subtle reference to a potters wheel, in which case the clay would be in the middle so it could rotate evenly. Looking at the interesting grayish textured pattern of the dragon on the woman's robe, it also reminds me of working on a block of clay.
So taking Clay St. to it's termination we find ourselves at Arguello St. Nearby is the Emanu-El temple. I feel like this is a good track, that is IF we are meant to start at the TAP building similar to how Cleveland seemed to have the Terminal Tower in mind as a route anchor.
So what's the best next step from Arguello St.?
Has anyone sat down with a street map of SF and Image 1 to match the patterns in the dragon's body to city blocks in SF? There HAS to be a reason that the blocks are varying sizes and some do not line up. For example, if I look at the wing of the dragon that is fully exposed, I see (possibly mirrored) the area labeled Rincon Hill down to South of Market with the bend to Mission Dist. Would this place the dragon over Chinatown? Is the Yin Yang symbol over Chinatown? I don't know if I have the patience and I certainly don't have a 1982 AAA map.
What is intriguing is the first big coil of the tail and the section just below it between the X and A in the image. There are small blocks and large ones. Like I said, there has to be significance to this and may give us some additional clues.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
Has anyone sat down with a street map of SF and Image 1 to match the patterns in the dragon's body to city blocks in SF? There HAS to be a reason that the blocks are varying sizes and some do not line up. For example, if I look at the wing of the dragon that is fully exposed, I see (possibly mirrored) the area labeled Rincon Hill down to South of Market with the bend to Mission Dist. Would this place the dragon over Chinatown? Is the Yin Yang symbol over Chinatown? I don't know if I have the patience and I certainly don't have a 1982 AAA map.
What is intriguing is the first big coil of the tail and the section just below it between the X and A in the image. There are small blocks and large ones. Like I said, there has to be significance to this and may give us some additional clues.
Yes there is a part that matches over by coit tower it is in the archives here somewhere.
erexere
An interesting association for the number 38 is the much decorated USS San Francisco (CA-38) which suffered no damage during the events of the Attack on Pearl Harbor.
erexere
The table and watch might be there as they are similar to a potters wheel.
Goonie68
Well no casque today! But it was a productive day. I made a good connection with the grounds supervisor and gave me some good info about the area I was at. Plus info about all the knuckle heads that are digging without permission. He told me I was the first in his section to go through the correct procedure to dig. The dig was supervised by a grounds supervisor and a Park Police Officer. The Officer took pictures and documented the dig, for there use only. You are only allowed 1 hole.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26438166048/in/dateposted-public/
This is from the location. You have 360 degree view of all.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26322764448/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39297521435/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39297490345/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25324000197/in/dateposted-public/
I am not claiming that I have solved anything, just that my research and the body of work brought me to this location that's all. It is subjective of course, the spot, but there are many markers from the illustration from this spot. Shakespeare Garden( Sun dial), Suto Towers, De Young, Steinhert Aquarium (then) Japanese Garden, The Congregation Emanu-El San Francisco( which could be in the upper left corner of the illustration) and without 30 years of tree growth you would of been able to see the botanical gardens. The spot has not had any work done to it in over 40 years, confirmed by the grounds supervisor. One other note that the De Young back in the 80's had a tower and arched windows that possible match the arched door in the illustration. This would of been another marker from that location. And that concludes today!
gManTexas
Sounds like a fun day. Did they seem like they'd give you another shot?
WhiteRabbit
Goldengate wrote::
Hey Goonie! You’re doing it the right way — and really interesting spot to boot! Thank you for sharing!
+1
drunknerds
Goonie, great job trying out your theory. And it was awesome that you went through the proper channels. GGP seems to be chill about the hunt, I'd hate for a bunch of illegal/messy diggers to sour this attitude.
Sorry you didn't find the casque!
Goonie68
Thanks! I want to do this the right way and make it possible for others to have the same experience, the reward is doing it right even know you come out of it empty handed, but I'll keep going! LOL
erexere
Good job Goonies. Question, are you required to pay for the dig permission?
Goonie68
No payment required
gManTexas
How do people feel about the 4 symbols near the G and h on the robe? The two near the G are a triangle and square, the two near the h are a square and circle (or octagon).
I see traffic signs in this. If the image is flipped, the Great Highway makes more sense, and the traffic signs also make sense. Thoughts?
treetops
If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway?
I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols?
When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get:
-Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole
-Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4
-Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol
-A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)
treetops
If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway?
I
generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't
I
, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees
of
small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols?
When
I
do try to make sense
of
the four shape symbols along the top,
I
get:
-Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole
-Numeric code, based on the number
of
sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4
-Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though
I
'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol
-A cryptic representation
of
the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)
erexere
Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?
erexere
Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid.
I
know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway?
I generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't I, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees of small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols?
When I do try to make sense of the four shape symbols along the top, I get:
-Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole
-Numeric code, based on the number of sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4
-Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though I'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol
-A cryptic representation of the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)
I get that, but think about walking around or driving. I don't think any of this is that deep in the sense of alchemy or code.
In actual orientation, the Great Highway (or Great highway) is busier on the south side, a divided section with 6 or 7 lanes, versus the north side of the park which is a normal double lane highway with maybe 4 or 5 lanes at the intersection. Looking to the north side, I see a that there would be stop sign and a square turn to the left sign. On the south side, which is crazy busy, I see a caution merge and possibly a turning circle sign. It would be great to see photos from the 80s of the Great highway, but when I look at the mirrored image from The Secret, the icons (can we call them that?) seem more prominent on the "G" side, which would be south.
The mirror image, at least on the top half also "looks right" but maybe that's just the G h talking.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
If these symbols are connected to traffic signs on the Great Highway, do you imagine there's a significance beyond just confirming GH=Great highway?
I
generally have a hard time getting invested in the symbols that aren't
I
, II, III, yin-yang or G and h, because they are varying degrees
of
small and indistinct. Could they just be there to mask the more legible symbols?
When
I
do try to make sense
of
the four shape symbols along the top,
I
get:
-Alchemy something: doesn't really lead anywhere except down a rabbit hole
-Numeric code, based on the number
of
sides to each shape: circle = 1, triangle = 3, square = 4
-Something to do with survey markers that could be found near the burial site, though
I
'm not sure that square with a dot in it is a valid marker symbol
-A cryptic representation
of
the letters ABCD, complementing the G and h (but where are E and F?)
I
get that, but think about walking around or driving.
I
don't think any
of
this is that deep in the sense
of
alchemy or code.
In actual orientation, the Great Highway (or Great highway) is busier on the south side, a divided section with 6 or 7 lanes, versus the north side
of
the park which is a normal double lane highway with maybe 4 or 5 lanes at the intersection. Looking to the north side,
I
see a that there would be stop sign and a square turn to the left sign. On the south side, which is crazy busy,
I
see a caution merge and possibly a turning circle sign. It would be great to see photos from the 80s
of
the Great highway, but when
I
look at the mirrored image from The Secret, the icons (can we call them that?) seem more prominent on the "G" side, which would be south.
The mirror image, at least on the top half also "looks right" but maybe that's just the G h talking.
treetops
erexere wrote::
Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid.
I
know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?
Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one
of
the things that made me think
of
sides = numbers for these symbols.
If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have:
14 hG 43
The only sense
I
can make
of
this is that the exits for Chain
of
Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?
treetops
erexere wrote::
Perhaps those symbols are meant to lead us down Euclid. I know Cleveland's solution has described the same approach. What could be the harm in Preiss using the same method twice?
Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols.
If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have:
14 hG 43
The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one
of
the things that made me think
of
sides = numbers for these symbols.
If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have:
14 hG 43
The only sense
I
can make
of
this is that the exits for Chain
of
Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?
I
'm not discounting any other theories, just looking at this from a on-the-ground practical view point.
I
've been staring at these puzzles for maybe a month and thinking from a lot
of
directions, but mostly 1 or 2 layers deep. If
I
was searching for a treasure in 1982,
I
wouldn't think much beyond that. Yes, that is an affirmation that we have become smarter, maybe to our chagrin, and rely too much on the internet or other resources. Let's roll back to 1982. What do we have at our disposal? A street map, historical writings, people, and our senses. We could ride in a car or other standard mode
of
transportation and observe. We can walk around. We can look at a map. We can ask people what was important. Beyond that we have nothing.
When this was done in 1982, they (being the authors and the illustrators) had not much to go on. A map. A tale. A body
of
water or land. Traffic signs. Things that show up in Polaroids or maybe old photos. The authors, primarily Preiss, had an interest in selling books. Why would they create something layers and layers deep that could not be solved? Maybe to give up only a few casques, but
I
don't think so. So let's reel it in and consider what was the intent.
I
think to create some easy and some slightly harder puzzles for people to solve. The author himself said that he expected these to be solved in a few months. Granted what is easy to one person may not be to everyone, but
I
believe that the more time that passes, people mistakenly believe that these are more complicated than they are.
The major problem
I
see is that the book did not get the traction it was intended to, and probably deserved, when released. Given the relatively fluid changes in these public works (being the locations), and the general thought processes
of
humanity, some things are lost over time. It is hard in 2018 to picture what the culture and social outlook was in 1982, even if you lived it. Hell,
I
hardly remember 10 years ago.
Coming back to what
I
said in my last post, why not simplify? Let's go back to '82.
I
figure out that the girl in the Image is a representation
of
Golden Gate Park. She is a map. Wait, the Great Hwy is reversed, no problem,
I
'll get a mirror. This is basic sleuth stuff.
I
had a secret decoder ring in the 60's or 70's from the back
of
a comic book. Okay, what's next? Heck, some
of
these features look familiar.
I
drill down and match a verse that makes sense. Was Chicago or Cleveland that complicated? No, maybe more straightforward, but not complicated, like you needed an advanced dual-degree in ancient Nordic astrology and biophysics to understand these riddles.
I
believe that this book was Preiss' greatest achievement and failure at the same time. It's possible that he lamented this fact later, when our predecessors found the casque in Cleveland, He marveled at the fact that they were so ambitious and worked so hard for years to crack this code, and yet he seemed to have moved on from this chapter, while retaining some youthful enthusiasm, like finding an old dairy that was well written but full
of
pubescent braggadocio.
Let's go back to basics here, especially for San Francisco. There's an image that is actually well defined by map placement. There's a verse, if by no other reason, by process
of
elimination. There are some clues. Could it be that hard?
I
don't think so. Does the casque exist? Maybe. Time has passed. Things have changed. But at the heart
of
it, there is a solution, and
I
doubt it is complicated. Look at the things that are generally immovable, like rivers and main streets. Stuff that shows up in searches over years and years. The objects, the shapes. They still exist. Finding them is the key.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Isn't the triangle in the Cleveland image thought to represent the number 3? That's one of the things that made me think of sides = numbers for these symbols.
If interpreted that way, and we go with circle, square, square, triangle, we'd have:
14 hG 43
The only sense I can make of this is that the exits for Chain of Lakes Drive are 41st and 43rd avenue (was this always the case?), but that requires an arbitrary decision to read the numbers from inside to outside in both directions. This does again echo methods from image 4, but is that justified?
I'm not discounting any other theories, just looking at this from a on-the-ground practical view point. I've been staring at these puzzles for maybe a month and thinking from a lot of directions, but mostly 1 or 2 layers deep. If I was searching for a treasure in 1982, I wouldn't think much beyond that. Yes, that is an affirmation that we have become smarter, maybe to our chagrin, and rely too much on the internet or other resources. Let's roll back to 1982. What do we have at our disposal? A street map, historical writings, people, and our senses. We could ride in a car or other standard mode of transportation and observe. We can walk around. We can look at a map. We can ask people what was important. Beyond that we have nothing.
When this was done in 1982, they (being the authors and the illustrators) had not much to go on. A map. A tale. A body of water or land. Traffic signs. Things that show up in Polaroids or maybe old photos. The authors, primarily Preiss, had an interest in selling books. Why would they create something layers and layers deep that could not be solved? Maybe to give up only a few casques, but I don't think so. So let's reel it in and consider what was the intent. I think to create some easy and some slightly harder puzzles for people to solve. The author himself said that he expected these to be solved in a few months. Granted what is easy to one person may not be to everyone, but I believe that the more time that passes, people mistakenly believe that these are more complicated than they are.
The major problem I see is that the book did not get the traction it was intended to, and probably deserved, when released. Given the relatively fluid changes in these public works (being the locations), and the general thought processes of humanity, some things are lost over time. It is hard in 2018 to picture what the culture and social outlook was in 1982, even if you lived it. Hell, I hardly remember 10 years ago.
Coming back to what I said in my last post, why not simplify? Let's go back to '82. I figure out that the girl in the Image is a representation of Golden Gate Park. She is a map. Wait, the Great Hwy is reversed, no problem, I'll get a mirror. This is basic sleuth stuff. I had a secret decoder ring in the 60's or 70's from the back of a comic book. Okay, what's next? Heck, some of these features look familiar. I drill down and match a verse that makes sense. Was Chicago or Cleveland that complicated? No, maybe more straightforward, but not complicated, like you needed an advanced dual-degree in ancient Nordic astrology and biophysics to understand these riddles.
I believe that this book was Preiss' greatest achievement and failure at the same time. It's possible that he lamented this fact later, when our predecessors found the casque in Cleveland, He marveled at the fact that they were so ambitious and worked so hard for years to crack this code, and yet he seemed to have moved on from this chapter, while retaining some youthful enthusiasm, like finding an old dairy that was well written but full of pubescent braggadocio.
Let's go back to basics here, especially for San Francisco. There's an image that is actually well defined by map placement. There's a verse, if by no other reason, by process of elimination. There are some clues. Could it be that hard? I don't think so. Does the casque exist? Maybe. Time has passed. Things have changed. But at the heart of it, there is a solution, and I doubt it is complicated. Look at the things that are generally immovable, like rivers and main streets. Stuff that shows up in searches over years and years. The objects, the shapes. They still exist. Finding them is the key.
erexere
Great thoughts gmanTexas.
This doesn't look like a simple image. A woman with her arms crossed -never a good sign..., standing, next to a table, watch, rose, and some prison gate in the side
of
a hill in the distance. Don't forget there's a bunch
of
big white orbs in the sky (making sounds?). She has a pearl for a prominentia laryngea. Perhaps the object
of
Twain's attention, meant to be the pearl in this image, has something to do with the
Extracts from Adam's Diary.
This leads me again to the Three Shades (
Adam
) sculpture once located at the Palace
of
the Legion
of
Honor on that car sized plinth.
erexere
Great thoughts gmanTexas.
This doesn't look like a simple image. A woman with her arms crossed -never a good sign..., standing, next to a table, watch, rose, and some prison gate in the side of a hill in the distance. Don't forget there's a bunch of big white orbs in the sky (making sounds?). She has a pearl for a prominentia laryngea. Perhaps the object of Twain's attention, meant to be the pearl in this image, has something to do with the
Extracts from Adam's Diary.
This leads me again to the Three Shades (
Adam
) sculpture once located at the Palace of the Legion of Honor on that car sized plinth.
Goonie68
The take I have on what resources that people would of had back in 1980's to what we have today, is different, i think speed is what we have to day verses 1980. Meaning we have technology that gives us information quicker. For these puzzles all you would of needed is.... A class room (what we learned in school) a Map of the area, A library, and a magnifying glass. The same as we have today . Internet (classroom) Map( google earth), Library (wiki and google) Magnifying glass (computer). Priess was a very smart man Graduated top of his class at Pennsylvania university and Masters at Stanford. So to him easy might not of been easy to common folk. I just think back in the 80's we had all the things we have today but just today is much quicker in our movement.
Goonie68
The take
I
have on what resources that people would
of
had back in 1980's to what we have today, is different,
i
think speed is what we have to day verses 1980. Meaning we have technology that gives us information quicker. For these puzzles all you would
of
needed is.... A class room (what we learned in school) a Map
of
the area, A library, and a magnifying glass. The same as we have today . Internet (classroom) Map( google earth), Library (wiki and google) Magnifying glass (computer). Priess was a very smart man Graduated top
of
his class at Pennsylvania university and Masters at Stanford. So to him easy might not
of
been easy to common folk.
I
just think back in the 80's we had all the things we have today but just today is much quicker in our movement.
drunknerds
Wow, great breakdown, Goonie.
I
like to think (hope?) that part
of
the difficulty in these solves is that Preiss chose spots to represent the dig site that are not perceptible on Gogle Earth. Like is that fence and fencepost from chicago even perceptible?
drunknerds
Wow, great breakdown, Goonie.
I like to think (hope?) that part of the difficulty in these solves is that Preiss chose spots to represent the dig site that are not perceptible on Gogle Earth. Like is that fence and fencepost from chicago even perceptible?
MrBackstop
Okay, finally got my solve together after revisiting this Image again. I have this casque located no where near Golden Gate park. The casque is located in San Francisco Maritime National Historic Park by the Powell-Hyde Turnaround at Beach and Hyde. Some members have discussed elements of this possibility but not the spot for my dig or the details I've concluded.
Verse 7
At stone wall's door
- San Francisco Bay
The air smells sweet
- Ghiradelli
Alcatraz seems like an obvious one here and Ghiradelli is too. I stayed in SF 11 years ago on a vacation right next door to the turnaround in the Argonaut Hotel and the first two things that hit you when you walk out are the view of Alcatraz and the incredible smell of chocolate.
Not far away
- Aquatic Park
High posts are three
- Balclutha (1886 ship)
Aquatic Park is right at the corner of the Maritime Park and has many beautiful old ships docked at the Hyde Street Pier. The Balclutha can be seen from all over this area.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Education and Justice
- Galileo Academy and Alcatraz
For all to see
- Both are easy to view from a distance
Sounds from the sky
- This refers to the Foghorns in the bay
Near ace is high
- Alice Marble Tennis Courts at George Sterling Park
The Cable Car route for Powell-Hyde runs right passed this park which is known for its great viewing area for the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz Island. The Alice marble Tennis Courts sit on top of this park.
Running north, but first across
-The Powell-Hyde Cable Car route runs to the North from Market St., across Jackson and then North to the Hyde & Beach Turnaround
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
In jewel's direction
- Hyde Street Pier
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- Paddle Wheel as you enter Hyde Street Pier
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Giant pole
- The Speaking Tower in the park to the West of the Cable Car Turnaround
Giant step
- Not the set of Steps on the beach but a "figurative" step toward the Cable CarTurnaround
Take a Giant step to the East and that will put you at the outside of the Cable Car Turnaround
To the place
The casque is kept.
- Dig Spot in the Landscaping just below (North side) of the Cable Car Turnaround.
Image 8
-----------------
Let's start with the
white balls
in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front of Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city of SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
The wrought iron is what is represented by the rose vine in the image curling around the table.
Window
on the Stone window is Alcatraz. There are many faces and images in the rocks that have been discussed like
Ronald Reagan
, I'm sure everyone can see different thing here but they are not important to my solve.
Let's talk about the table and the rose.
It was pointed out by a few that the leg of the table resembles a cable car, and I agree. But what I see is actually a Cable Car on the Coit Tower. The top of the Table is what is known as the Tabletop in the Turnaround that the cable cars stop and spin around into the other direction on. And let me give credit to Kalessin from the post on page 70 noticing the winder on top of the clock is actually the bell on top of a cable car.
As you look at the rose notice how the background of the rose is above the horizon line with the "Rock" behind it. This signifies something very cool in my opinion. The rose is called a
Bardou Job Rose
. It is grown on Alcatraz Island and this is just a way to show the importance of the Gardens of Alcatraz.
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/bardou-job
As mentioned the curly vine of the rose doesn't make the Letter "J", it is representing the wrought iron designs used all over the area around the SF Maritime Park. The number 3 that has been mentioned in the vine in my opinion is actually the Letter "M" for Maritime.
Now for the Lady
Her fingers are pointing to the 4th sqaure on each sleeve. This represents the 44 hills of San Francisco. Her
arms are crossed
to show the crossing of the rails on the turnaround. There are a couple sets of tracks for the Cable Cars that cross over on the turnaround.
The
Sea Serpent
is a conjunction of things. It is the platform on top of the turnaround. The squares are the bricks on the turnaround that the tracks are embedded into. The Sea Serpent also represents the Cable Car system itself by the way it snakes its way around the city of SF. Now, on the Serpent in Image 1 there is what appears to be a Strawberry. And while this may be a strawberry, I see it as a representation of the famous Wildberries that grow on Alcatraz Island.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Symbols on Her Cloak
The
Backward "G" and "h"
are for us being behind the Ghiradelli Sign. But, she is on the "other side" of Ghiradelli like the Powell-Hyde Turnaround.
Squares, Circles, Triangles
at the top are Freemason symbols. Square representing N,S,E,W, also representing the Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. Circles represent the Sun. The Triangle is considered the most important because it represents the Diety.
Latitude and Longitude are represented by the Roman numerals
I-I-II and I-II-III
. Most everyone knows that one.
The
Yin and Yang symbol
is there to represent Fire and Water because from this area you can see the Historic San Francisco Fire Department Pumping Station #2. It was built after the great earthquake of 1906.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/nat1976000177.asp
The letter
"A"
on the left side is for Alcatraz.
The
upside down IV
on the right side is the "6" on the Ghiradelli Clock Tower.
The
"X"
is in the logo from the South End Rowing Club at the North end of the Maritime Park.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
The "A" on the right side is from the Argonaut Hotel next to the Turnaround.
The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas, I'm stumped on these.
Now lets look as her Hair. The part in her hair appears to be the entrance of the Cable Cars coming from Hyde St into the Turnaround. The two strands of hair are the tracks. And what I see with the jewel is this, her chin is the boundary of the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. The sidewalk going around the Turnaround is the top of her Cloak. This would mean the landscaping (her hair) area between the Turnaround and the Sidewalk is my Dig Spot.
There you have it, my dig spot for San Francisco.
MrBackstop
MrBackstop
Okay, finally got my solve together after revisiting this Image again.
I
have this casque located no where near Golden Gate park. The casque is located in San Francisco Maritime National Historic Park by the Powell-Hyde Turnaround at Beach and Hyde. Some members have discussed elements
of
this possibility but not the spot for my dig or the details
I
've concluded.
Verse 7
At stone wall's door
- San Francisco Bay
The air smells sweet
- Ghiradelli
Alcatraz seems like an obvious one here and Ghiradelli is too.
I
stayed in SF 11 years ago on a vacation right next door to the turnaround in the Argonaut Hotel and the first two things that hit you when you walk out are the view
of
Alcatraz and the incredible smell
of
chocolate.
Not far away
- Aquatic Park
High posts are three
- Balclutha (1886 ship)
Aquatic Park is right at the corner
of
the Maritime Park and has many beautiful old ships docked at the Hyde Street Pier. The Balclutha can be seen from all over this area.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Education and Justice
- Galileo Academy and Alcatraz
For all to see
- Both are easy to view from a distance
Sounds from the sky
- This refers to the Foghorns in the bay
Near ace is high
- Alice Marble Tennis Courts at George Sterling Park
The Cable Car route for Powell-Hyde runs right passed this park which is known for its great viewing area for the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz Island. The Alice marble Tennis Courts sit on top
of
this park.
Running north, but first across
-The Powell-Hyde Cable Car route runs to the North from Market St., across Jackson and then North to the Hyde & Beach Turnaround
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
In jewel's direction
- Hyde Street Pier
Is an object
Of
Twain's attention
- Paddle Wheel as you enter Hyde Street Pier
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Giant pole
- The Speaking Tower in the park to the West
of
the Cable Car Turnaround
Giant step
- Not the set
of
Steps on the beach but a "figurative" step toward the Cable CarTurnaround
Take a Giant step to the East and that will put you at the outside
of
the Cable Car Turnaround
To the place
The casque is kept.
- Dig Spot in the Landscaping just below (North side)
of
the Cable Car Turnaround.
Image 8
-----------------
Let's start with the
white balls
in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front
of
Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city
of
SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
The wrought iron is what is represented by the rose vine in the image curling around the table.
Window
on the Stone window is Alcatraz. There are many faces and images in the rocks that have been discussed like
Ronald Reagan
,
I
'm sure everyone can see different thing here but they are not important to my solve.
Let's talk about the table and the rose.
It was pointed out by a few that the leg
of
the table resembles a cable car, and
I
agree. But what
I
see is actually a Cable Car on the Coit Tower. The top
of
the Table is what is known as the Tabletop in the Turnaround that the cable cars stop and spin around into the other direction on. And let me give credit to Kalessin from the post on page 70 noticing the winder on top
of
the clock is actually the bell on top
of
a cable car.
As you look at the rose notice how the background
of
the rose is above the horizon line with the "Rock" behind it. This signifies something very cool in my opinion. The rose is called a
Bardou Job Rose
. It is grown on Alcatraz Island and this is just a way to show the importance
of
the Gardens
of
Alcatraz.
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/bardou-job
As mentioned the curly vine
of
the rose doesn't make the Letter "J", it is representing the wrought iron designs used all over the area around the SF Maritime Park. The number 3 that has been mentioned in the vine in my opinion is actually the Letter "M" for Maritime.
Now for the Lady
Her fingers are pointing to the 4th sqaure on each sleeve. This represents the 44 hills
of
San Francisco. Her
arms are crossed
to show the crossing
of
the rails on the turnaround. There are a couple sets
of
tracks for the Cable Cars that cross over on the turnaround.
The
Sea Serpent
is a conjunction
of
things. It is the platform on top
of
the turnaround. The squares are the bricks on the turnaround that the tracks are embedded into. The Sea Serpent also represents the Cable Car system itself by the way it snakes its way around the city
of
SF. Now, on the Serpent in Image 1 there is what appears to be a Strawberry. And while this may be a strawberry,
I
see it as a representation
of
the famous Wildberries that grow on Alcatraz Island.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
Symbols on Her Cloak
The
Backward "G" and "h"
are for us being behind the Ghiradelli Sign. But, she is on the "other side"
of
Ghiradelli like the Powell-Hyde Turnaround.
Squares, Circles, Triangles
at the top are Freemason symbols. Square representing N,S,E,W, also representing the Earth, Wind, Fire and Water. Circles represent the Sun. The Triangle is considered the most important because it represents the Diety.
Latitude and Longitude are represented by the Roman numerals
I
-
I
-II and
I
-II-III
. Most everyone knows that one.
The
Yin and Yang symbol
is there to represent Fire and Water because from this area you can see the Historic San Francisco Fire Department Pumping Station #2. It was built after the great earthquake
of
1906.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/nat1976000177.asp
The letter
"A"
on the left side is for Alcatraz.
The
upside down IV
on the right side is the "6" on the Ghiradelli Clock Tower.
The
"X"
is in the logo from the South End Rowing Club at the North end
of
the Maritime Park.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
The "A" on the right side is from the Argonaut Hotel next to the Turnaround.
The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas,
I
'm stumped on these.
Now lets look as her Hair. The part in her hair appears to be the entrance
of
the Cable Cars coming from Hyde St into the Turnaround. The two strands
of
hair are the tracks. And what
I
see with the jewel is this, her chin is the boundary
of
the Powell-Hyde Turnaround. The sidewalk going around the Turnaround is the top
of
her Cloak. This would mean the landscaping (her hair) area between the Turnaround and the Sidewalk is my Dig Spot.
There you have it, my dig spot for San Francisco.
MrBackstop
treetops
Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886
)
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Just one note
Only one?
treetops
I
spent some time at the SFPL's local history collections this afternoon and just posted a bunch
of
snaps
of
Preiss-era brochures, etc. to the Albums area
of
the San Francisco facebook group, including that ca. 1981 map
of
Golden Gate Park. Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/
treetops
I spent some time at the SFPL's local history collections this afternoon and just posted a bunch of snaps of Preiss-era brochures, etc. to the Albums area of the San Francisco facebook group, including that ca. 1981 map of Golden Gate Park. Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/
MrBackstop
treetops wrote::
Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886
)
Why? The Barclutha used to be docked at Pier 41 right down the street. These posts can be seen from all over the SF area. Why would that change anything?
The Verse states :
Not far away
High posts are three
What am
I
missing?
MrBackstop
treetops wrote::
Just one note: you might want to revise the detail about the Balclutha after reading this. It was moved to its present location in the late 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balclutha_(1886
)
Why? The Barclutha used to be docked at Pier 41 right down the street. These posts can be seen from all over the SF area. Why would that change anything?
The Verse states :
Not far away
High posts are three
What am I missing?
MrBackstop
But you are right treetops, I did mention the Aquatic Park because that's where I saw it a few years back. I should have clarified that it used to be at Pier 41.
MrBackstop
But you are right treetops,
I
did mention the Aquatic Park because that's where
I
saw it a few years back.
I
should have clarified that it used to be at Pier 41.
catherwood
treetops wrote::
Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/
I
hope someone feels free to curate a few
of
these and repost to an open image-hosting site.
I
am not a member
of
Facebook, and the group is asking for a login.
catherwood
treetops wrote::
Feel free to use the images however you like, or repost elsewhere.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/
I hope someone feels free to curate a few of these and repost to an open image-hosting site. I am not a member of Facebook, and the group is asking for a login.
jermajerm
Unknown:
The other symbols at the bottom have me baffled. Help me out here if anyone has any ideas, I'm stumped on these.
The 3 ball symbol could have something to do with lombard, it appears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnbroker
MrBackstop
Let me correct myself here, I was showing my solve for image 1 not
Image 8
-----------------
Let's start with the
white balls
in the sky. These are the unique round lights that are around the SF Maritime Park in pairs, in front of Ghiradelli and on the Friedel Klussmann sign when you enter to ride the Cable Car. Also notice the wrought iron decor wrapped around the ball at this location. This wrought iron is all over the city of SF but very noticeable around Hyde and Beach Streets as well.
MrBackstop
jermajerm wrote::
The 3 ball symbol could have something to do with lombard, it appears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnbroker
Interesting thought there, could be. I searched as best I could and nothing stood out.
The only other symbol I thought I might have solved is the one at the bottom with the two half-circles. It's not totally clear in the Image 1 artwork I'm looking at but could represent the turntable.
drunknerds
Alright, you all probably remember gman and I have been working on a solve that uses pretty much every image (except lincoln/reagan) and gets us to a dig site with several close matches (in our opinion).
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=1230
Our issues were A. We had no idea how to step in relation to the giant pole, and B. We found it weird that the pole wouldn't be represented at all in the image.
Well, I sent some boots on the ground to take pictures of the highly unusual molding around the base of the flagpost:
Well, hey, is that our rose stem spiral? We don't even need to rotate it:
The base rises up to this design.
Not sure what to do with that eagle, maybe some sharp-eyed people can spot it in the image. Speaking of which, look at the eagle molding from the side:
Okay so we've found some images that might be a match for the flagpole, although they aren't super exact. That still leaves the question of where to dig...
Check out the flagpole base from this angle:
It's an X. A cross...
Running north, but first across
It's that misfit piece of verse we thought was either a redundant reference to Highway 1 or a Prayerbook cross point-out. But it's not, it's the final step.
Stand at the cross at the base of the flagpole, take a step North (straight toward Fulton street), and dig. Note that the giant step is needed to get you off of the cement base.
Alternately, Gman theorizes the molding around the eagle is in the clock's shadow, and the shadow posts East. So take a step East (towards Spreckels lake, which has two objects of Twain's attention) and dig.
Also above the eagle is this weird thing:
I'm hoping someone can spot a more exact match in the image for some of this stuff. There's a lot for Preiss to have worked with.
treetops
I believe a rubbing of that painted-over circle above the eagle would allow us to make out the words.
MrBackstop
No, I did not get to see this info yet. I was working on the Boston Image and have not looked back on all the info you guys put up. That is awesome work you guys did. Very cool to see so many possibilities and how they line up with Verse. I look forward to someone hopefully poking around and digging this thing up. Incredible solve work.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I believe a rubbing of that painted-over circle above the eagle would allow us to make out the words.
Or maybe a straight on photo.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Or maybe a straight on photo.
My friend who took the picture says its 8-12 feet in the air. Although, she's tiny, so maybe a better perspective is all we need.
Currently asking my 6ft+ friends in the area to check it out
treetops
Tell them to bring a selfie stick
drunknerds
Ah, I did forget about that.
I like that they are both turning their heads to the side.
I don't like that nothing else really seems to match
Is this even an eagle in the photo? I'm not a bird guy
drunknerds
I mean, it works for me.
Brings into question the other seemingly-random circles which also seem like they could be printing errors: Red circle below the X on her smock, and the circle on the rock outcropping on the far left right about the height of the top of her head
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
There are definitely circles, mostly reddish that are printing errors, this one, being the eye, I do not believe is one. Also it's worth freeze framing Expedition Unknown where you can see a wide shot of this illustration on an easel. While some details are hard to make out, I can see an eye in the original on TV.
There's also another similar eye like circle on the face many believe to be JFK/Reagan/Fred Flintstone... but if you just turn the page to the other side, you can see an entirely different face. (IMO, it looks like a mustachioed samurai mask that is in the permanent collection of the Asian Art museum (housed in the de young in 82) and may also be represented somewhere in the tea garden).
This is probably super- tunneling, and humorous, but I can see the face as just being an angled view of the flagpole base
treetops
Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view
It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says:
COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE
PATENTED
L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS
SAN FRANCISCO CAL
[some numbers that include 78]
It's on the south side of the pole
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view
It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says:
COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE
PATENTED
L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS
SAN FRANCISCO CAL
[some numbers that include 78]
It's on the south side of the pole
Thanks treetops. Bolander & Sons is based in SF. Looks like the plate is stamped 78.
Does this mean the original pole was replaced in 1978? The photo from the 40's shows what looks like a round pole. A later photo, shows the pole we see today. Maybe the age of the photo was mis-categorized?
What is interesting in that photo I am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out front by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
Here's a clearer image of the manufacturer's plate on that flagpole in front of the senior center:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NSMl1liYJ3r0vzuI2MxGYqkfEkDqDVby/view
It has a lot of paint on it, but I believe it says:
COUNTERBALANCED FLAGPOLE
PATENTED
L.PH. BOLANDER & SONS
SAN FRANCISCO CAL
[some numbers that include 78]
It's on the south side of the pole
Wow, well done
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
What is interesting in that photo I am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out from by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around.
The timeline I gathered from my trip to the library is that the building was actually used in some capacity for senior activities and classes since 1965 (thus stated on 1981 park map), but wasn't officially dedicated as the Senior Center until 1980 (dedication program)
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
What is interesting in that photo
I
am referring to, is that the building still has Police Department written on it, with no bushes out from by the street. And the windows appear to be boarded up. In this case, if the casque was buried there, it was out in the open, but without many people around.
The timeline
I
gathered from my trip to the library is that the building was actually used in some capacity for senior activities and classes since 1965 (thus stated on 1981 park map), but wasn't officially dedicated as the Senior Center until 1980 (dedication program)
gManTexas
Okay, so this is becoming more real to me.
I
have been trying to convince myself
of
the validity
of
this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one
of
the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time.
The next step is obviously for someone to get in the ground.
I
would imagine a permit is required at the senior center.
My thought is looking at where the girl is pointing at her sleeves, one finger is at 6 squares and the other is at 8 squares.
I
'm think between 6-8 feet to the East, as indicated by the 'A' shaped shadow next to the clock, which is toward Spreckels Lake. 6-8 feet would be a Giant step IMHO. Also, if t matters, the eagle on the south side
of
the pole is looking east.
gManTexas
Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time.
The next step is obviously for someone to get in the ground. I would imagine a permit is required at the senior center.
My thought is looking at where the girl is pointing at her sleeves, one finger is at 6 squares and the other is at 8 squares. I'm think between 6-8 feet to the East, as indicated by the 'A' shaped shadow next to the clock, which is toward Spreckels Lake. 6-8 feet would be a Giant step IMHO. Also, if t matters, the eagle on the south side of the pole is looking east.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
Okay, so this is becoming more real to me.
I
have been trying to convince myself
of
the validity
of
this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one
of
the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time.
I
'm not as sold on the front lawn
of
the senior center being the place to dig.
Here's all that
I
currently believe:
-image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123)
-pearl, rose, June
-the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle)
-Gh = Great Highway
-the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon
-the "blue blob" might represent the south end
of
North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there,
I
suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping)
-the spiral feet
of
the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city)
-verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities)
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet
of
the senior center
-the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole"
Specific concerns:
-whenever
I
see someone say "walking tour" as part
of
a theory,
I
fear a fallacy
of
taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route
-in the spirit
of
"seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection
of
"ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig
-is there another copy
of
the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
Okay, so this is becoming more real to me. I have been trying to convince myself of the validity of this solve, but it is starting to feel like we might have it. If it is here, it's one of the few places that has remained virtually undisturbed over time.
I'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig.
Here's all that I currently believe:
-image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123)
-pearl, rose, June
-the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle)
-Gh = Great Highway
-the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon
-the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping)
-the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city)
-verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities)
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center
-the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole"
Specific concerns:
-whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route
-in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig
-is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?
maltedfalcon
treetops wrote::
only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides
I
probed and metal detected - but that's back when
I
believed probes could tell you something useful.
maltedfalcon
treetops wrote::
only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I'm not as sold on the front lawn of the senior center being the place to dig.
Here's all that I currently believe:
-image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123)
-pearl, rose, June
-the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle)
-Gh = Great Highway
-the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon
-the "blue blob" might represent the south end of North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there, I suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping)
-the spiral feet of the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city)
-verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities)
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center
-the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole"
Specific concerns:
-whenever I see someone say "walking tour" as part of a theory, I fear a fallacy of taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route
-in the spirit of "seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection of "ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig
-is there another copy of the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?
I like the idea of doubting this, or any other potential solve. Although, a well reasoned theory deserves a dig. If someone could dig there and comes up empty, then we rule it out and sharpen the pencils.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I
'm not as sold on the front lawn
of
the senior center being the place to dig.
Here's all that
I
currently believe:
-image 1 is San Francisco (37,38 & 122,123)
-pearl, rose, June
-the dress is Golden Gate Park (but also an off-kilter rectangle)
-Gh = Great Highway
-the phoenixes on the senior center are distinct, dead ringers for the dragon
-the "blue blob" might represent the south end
of
North Lake, as depicted in the 1981 park map (if the casque was buried there,
I
suspect it's game over due to extensive landscaping)
-the spiral feet
of
the flagpole are excellent matches for the rose stem (but so are many other generic spiral decorations throughout the city)
-verse 7 probably goes with this image (but only because all other verses have better, specific ties to other images or cities)
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet
of
the senior center
-the senior center flagpole is possibly the "Giant Pole"
Specific concerns:
-whenever
I
see someone say "walking tour" as part
of
a theory,
I
fear a fallacy
of
taking several spread-out, faint resemblances to the image and verse and reverse-engineering them into a route
-in the spirit
of
"seek the columns for the search" and "beyond his shoulder is the fair folks' treasure holder", pole and step (whatever those are) could lead to the general dig area, not the precise spot. The intersection
of
"ace is high" and "Twain's attention" could very well be the place to dig
-is there another copy
of
the phoenix ironwork elsewhere in San Francisco?
I
like the idea
of
doubting this, or any other potential solve. Although, a well reasoned theory deserves a dig. If someone could dig there and comes up empty, then we rule it out and sharpen the pencils.
treetops
Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection
of
1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches:
hxxp://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22
treetops
Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches:
hxxp://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22
maltedfalcon
treetops wrote::
Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection of 1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches:
hxxp://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22
Awesome thanks! I can't wait to go through them!!
maltedfalcon
treetops wrote::
Just discovered this extensive, searchable collection
of
1964 and earlier San Francisco photographs that might not turn up in Google searches:
hxxp://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/cushman/results/result.do?action=browse&query=state%3A%22California%22+AND+city%3A%22San+Francisco%22
Awesome thanks!
I
can't wait to go through them!!
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides I probed and metal detected - but that's back when I believed probes could tell you something useful.
I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
only on 1 side, (toward the street) - the other sides
I
probed and metal detected - but that's back when
I
believed probes could tell you something useful.
I
could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe
I
need a senior center.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
I
could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe
I
need a senior center.
Well it was like 10 years ago, but fulton ave was my object (steamboats... (
i
know, lame...) but thats where
I
was
I
probed 360 and metal detected all around.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
I could have sworn you recently said you stood at the flagpole and took a step toward the senior center. Maybe I need a senior center.
Well it was like 10 years ago, but fulton ave was my object (steamboats... (i know, lame...) but thats where I was I probed 360 and metal detected all around.
maltedfalcon
I was asked where did I dig around a totem pole,
This is goddess of the forest, she stood in lindley meadow until 1988 (her base is still there.)
My theory started at Mccaren lodge - stone walls door
there is a gated archway near there.
I passed the conservatory of flowers - the air smelled sweet
Education and justice and high points - all pretty standard.
(note the route I am taking was totally on JFK blvd)
Sounds from the sky we go under highway 1
Aces High - Highway 1 running north over us, but first A Cross (we pass prayerbook cross)
Giant Pole -
Giant step ( the cement base the totem pole was on)
Since I did not have a object for twain,
I dug around it 360 degrees and out 4 feet, that was a lot of dirt ( actually took 4 separate trips of digging.)
maltedfalcon
I
was asked where did
I
dig around a totem pole,
This is goddess
of
the forest, she stood in lindley meadow until 1988 (her base is still there.)
My theory started at Mccaren lodge - stone walls door
there is a gated archway near there.
I
passed the conservatory
of
flowers - the air smelled sweet
Education and justice and high points - all pretty standard.
(note the route
I
am taking was totally on JFK blvd)
Sounds from the sky we go under highway 1
Aces High - Highway 1 running north over us, but first A Cross (we pass prayerbook cross)
Giant Pole -
Giant step ( the cement base the totem pole was on)
Since
I
did not have a object for twain,
I
dug around it 360 degrees and out 4 feet, that was a lot
of
dirt ( actually took 4 separate trips
of
digging.)
gManTexas
I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole.
gManTexas
I
read about your heroic efforts.
I
admire your tenacity. If not for this
I
would be positive that this is the Giant pole.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
I read about your heroic efforts. I admire your tenacity. If not for this I would be positive that this is the Giant pole.
it still could be, I was never able to
A: figure out a good object of twains attention
B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front
what if the direction was different...
Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
I
read about your heroic efforts.
I
admire your tenacity. If not for this
I
would be positive that this is the Giant pole.
it still could be,
I
was never able to
A: figure out a good object
of
twains attention
B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been
I
guessed and dug one small hole where
I
though it would be, but that was in front
what if the direction was different...
Giant step could be something else along jfk
I
just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
it still could be,
I
was never able to
A: figure out a good object
of
twains attention
B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been
I
guessed and dug one small hole where
I
though it would be, but that was in front
what if the direction was different...
Giant step could be something else along jfk
I
just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....
I
have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
it still could be, I was never able to
A: figure out a good object of twains attention
B: Definitively say what a giant step is... Perhaps if the goddess took an actual step off the plinth - how far would that have been I guessed and dug one small hole where I though it would be, but that was in front
what if the direction was different...
Giant step could be something else along jfk I just never found it... and it could be right by the giant step whatever that is....
I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
I have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.
This is why I'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to
"Seek the columns for the search"
and
"L sits and left
Beyond his shoulder
Is the Fair Folks'
Treasure holder"
If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
I
have to agree. Giant pole, Giant step are terrible instructions.
This is why
I
'm really trying to think in terms
of
"Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to
"Seek the columns for the search"
and
"L sits and left
Beyond his shoulder
Is the Fair Folks'
Treasure holder"
If you took either
of
those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object
of
Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.
Goonie68
You mean these holes?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39494690445/in/dateposted-public/
strike13
treetops wrote::
This is why
I
'm really trying to think in terms
of
"Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to
"Seek the columns for the search"
and
"L sits and left
Beyond his shoulder
Is the Fair Folks'
Treasure holder"
If you took either
of
those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object
of
Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.
are there areas
of
golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention
of
twain, leading him to write...
an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs:
That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one
of
these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full
of
shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one
of
the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale
of
the famous jumping frog.
For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any
of
the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer.
Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication
of
“The Jumping Frog.”
came from here
https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco
also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt
of
a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication
of
the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown.
maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...
i
know nada about san fran,
i
am working on the boston one, but
i
do read these from time to time...so if you spoke
of
frogs before,
I
do sincerely apologize.
i
did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as
of
recent, or still are..when
i
did the street view from nancy pelosi dr
i
could see that tower structure with the three high posts.
just sharing
strike13
treetops wrote::
This is why I'm really trying to think in terms of "Giant pole, Giant step" being equivalent to
"Seek the columns for the search"
and
"L sits and left
Beyond his shoulder
Is the Fair Folks'
Treasure holder"
If you took either of those clues as being the final dig instruction, you'd be in a similarly vague situation. How far beyond L's shoulder? Where in relation to the columns? The lines about Ace is High running north and an object of Twain's attention being across (East-West?) seem like a more reliable potential marker for an exact point to dig.
are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write...
an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs:
That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog.
For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer.
Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.”
came from here
https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco
also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown.
maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts.
just sharing
jermajerm
I went through all the words I could think of at one point that could work with giant step.
Skip, leap, hop, jump, bounce, terrace, tier. I dunno.
jermajerm
I
went through all the words
I
could think
of
at one point that could work with giant step.
Skip, leap, hop, jump, bounce, terrace, tier.
I
dunno.
catherwood
(yes, we really are having more
of
a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well)
I
like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind
of
deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.
catherwood
(yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well)
I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
You mean these holes?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39494690445/in/dateposted-public/
interestingly enough, those are not my holes, my holes healed over quite a few years back and had been replanted with grass seed by the friendly helpful groundskeepers.
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
are there areas
of
golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention
of
twain, leading him to write...
an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs:
That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one
of
these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full
of
shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one
of
the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale
of
the famous jumping frog.
For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any
of
the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer.
Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication
of
“The Jumping Frog.”
came from here
https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco
also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt
of
a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication
of
the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown.
maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...
i
know nada about san fran,
i
am working on the boston one, but
i
do read these from time to time...so if you spoke
of
frogs before,
I
do sincerely apologize.
i
did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as
of
recent, or still are..when
i
did the street view from nancy pelosi dr
i
could see that tower structure with the three high posts.
just sharing
Have at it
hxxp://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ma ... frogs.html
I
don't think anyone will ever nail down the Twain's attention, except by reverse engineering a successful dig. Pick any square mile in the U.S. and there's almost certainly something that Twain wrote or thought or lived that has to do with it. So far, it just seems to be arbitrary support for whatever theory is constructed. Like nobody's said, "
I
was following what
I
thought was the sure path, but then
I
decided it was wrong because there was no object
of
Twain's attention somewhere."
drunknerds
strike13 wrote::
are there areas of golden gate park near your spot that are known to have frogs? jumping frogs did catch the attention of twain, leading him to write...
an article also uses giant steps in reference to the frogs:
That was in December, 1864. He went to Angel’s Camp in Calaveras County, where he did a little gold mining and listened to the old miners spin yarns. In his notebook for that period, we find one of these yarns summarized: “Coleman with his jumping frog—bet stranger $50—stranger had no frog, and C. got him one:—in the meantime stranger filled C’s frog full of shot and he couldn’t jump. The stranger’s frog won.” After Twain’s return to San Francisco, Artemus Ward, who was in town on a visit, suggested he ought to submit something to one of the eastern publications; so Twain wrote this anecdote up in tall-tale style and sent it off. It was printed in the Saturday Press on November 18, 1865. It was his first work to appear in a national publication, and it immediately made his name. The nation’s fancy was tickled by this drawling tale of the famous jumping frog.
For a writer there are apt to be two places that have a special importance in his life. One is the place where he was brought up and formed the impressions that, in various guises, will be the basic material he will draw on. The other is the place where he first discovers his vocation. For Twain this place was San Francisco; it was here that he came to the realization, comparatively late in life, that he was not really going to be a river-boat pilot or a printer or a miner or any of the other things he had tried. What he was going to be was a writer.
Twain left San Francisco about a year after the publication of “The Jumping Frog.”
came from here
https://www.americanheritage.com/conten ... -francisco
also in another article said this about twain.. Charles Pfaff's beer cellar on lower Broadway was the favored haunt of a mid-19th-century bohemian coterie that included Walt Whitman, editor Henry Clapp, Jr., and the country's favorite humorist, Artemus Ward; Ward's friendship and support led directly to publication of the celebrated "Jumping Frog" story in Clapp's Saturday Press -- the young Mark Twain's first giant step toward national renown.
maybe giant step could be "jump"...as in frogs...i know nada about san fran, i am working on the boston one, but i do read these from time to time...so if you spoke of frogs before, I do sincerely apologize. i did a little googling and there were/are frogs in lily pond in golden gate park, in fact they were a problem as of recent, or still are..when i did the street view from nancy pelosi dr i could see that tower structure with the three high posts.
just sharing
Have at it
hxxp://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/ma ... frogs.html
I don't think anyone will ever nail down the Twain's attention, except by reverse engineering a successful dig. Pick any square mile in the U.S. and there's almost certainly something that Twain wrote or thought or lived that has to do with it. So far, it just seems to be arbitrary support for whatever theory is constructed. Like nobody's said, "I was following what I thought was the sure path, but then I decided it was wrong because there was no object of Twain's attention somewhere."
maltedfalcon
JoshCornell1 wrote::
i def got it.
you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours.
maltedfalcon
JoshCornell1 wrote::
i
def got it.
you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours.
WhiteRabbit
maltedfalcon wrote::
you keep asking others to share theirs, feel free to share yours.
Some chance. Josh's main purpose for being on this board is to piss people off as thoroughly as possible, and that's one thing he's very good at.
fox
JoshCornell1 wrote::
i
def got it.
Yup, just like you got Houston, New Orleans, and St Augustine. Oh wait, you didn't.
fox
JoshCornell1 wrote::
i def got it.
Yup, just like you got Houston, New Orleans, and St Augustine. Oh wait, you didn't.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet
of
the senior center
I
hope ~1,000 feet is correct, f only because it gives us more room to find exact matches. Problem is, it's all trees. Spreckles lake is near, and the Bison Paddock/Dog training place are kinda near, but
I
'm pretty sure they are more than 1,000 feet away.
Might be fun to poke around back
of
the senior center for art/ There are some signs tacked to trees that don't look interesting, but who knows.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
-if Chicago and Cleveland are models, the casque is buried in Golden Gate Park, within 1000 feet of the senior center
I hope ~1,000 feet is correct, f only because it gives us more room to find exact matches. Problem is, it's all trees. Spreckles lake is near, and the Bison Paddock/Dog training place are kinda near, but I'm pretty sure they are more than 1,000 feet away.
Might be fun to poke around back of the senior center for art/ There are some signs tacked to trees that don't look interesting, but who knows.
treetops
Yep, almost all of the park's sculptures and monuments are packed into its east end. The area to the west is dedicated to recreational activities, lakes and open spaces until you get to the windmills. Most of those recreational areas have, or had, associated clubhouses that might be of interest. I recently looked around inside the model yacht clubhouse at Spreckels Lake. There were some beautiful model boats and historical photos/info about the club, but nothing that jumped out as revelatory. The fly casting pool and clubhouse are tempting for some kind of riff on "giant pole", but nothing's gelling for me there either. Nearby pentanque are golf areas are likewise tempting for connections with the moons in the sky of image 1.
From what I've read, the area behind the senior center used to hold some sort of senior fitness course, presumably similar to the Par Courses in many city parks. It's currently a parking lot with off-path areas and picnic benches nearby.
The region of the Richmond District north of the park isn't terribly promising either: lots of square residential blocks, a few churches and schools. I believe the areas that show up as tiny parks on a map are actually school playgrounds or public basketball or tennis courts.
treetops
Yep, almost all
of
the park's sculptures and monuments are packed into its east end. The area to the west is dedicated to recreational activities, lakes and open spaces until you get to the windmills. Most
of
those recreational areas have, or had, associated clubhouses that might be
of
interest.
I
recently looked around inside the model yacht clubhouse at Spreckels Lake. There were some beautiful model boats and historical photos/info about the club, but nothing that jumped out as revelatory. The fly casting pool and clubhouse are tempting for some kind
of
riff on "giant pole", but nothing's gelling for me there either. Nearby pentanque are golf areas are likewise tempting for connections with the moons in the sky
of
image 1.
From what
I
've read, the area behind the senior center used to hold some sort
of
senior fitness course, presumably similar to the Par Courses in many city parks. It's currently a parking lot with off-path areas and picnic benches nearby.
The region
of
the Richmond District north
of
the park isn't terribly promising either: lots
of
square residential blocks, a few churches and schools.
I
believe the areas that show up as tiny parks on a map are actually school playgrounds or public basketball or tennis courts.
Goonie68
When I was at the senior center, I did check all around the building. back, side, I didn't find anything that would of lead me in any direction. There is a small parking with a lamp post on the edge of the lot, but the rest is landscaped with hedge's and grass. The building it's self does not have any markings in the rear. There are no visual markers that lead you anywhere from the back.
Goonie68
When
I
was at the senior center,
I
did check all around the building. back, side,
I
didn't find anything that would
of
lead me in any direction. There is a small parking with a lamp post on the edge
of
the lot, but the rest is landscaped with hedge's and grass. The building it's self does not have any markings in the rear. There are no visual markers that lead you anywhere from the back.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
When I was at the senior center,
Isn't the Senior Center a building? Might be instructive to look at the other buildings in the puzzle, and see how they fit into the solve, or proposed solve. Here's a hint: None of them are within 1,000 yards of the proposed dig spots, and most are miles away.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
When
I
was at the senior center,
Isn't the Senior Center a building? Might be instructive to look at the other buildings in the puzzle, and see how they fit into the solve, or proposed solve. Here's a hint: None
of
them are within 1,000 yards
of
the proposed dig spots, and most are miles away.
Goonie68
catherwood wrote::
(yes, we really are having more
of
a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well)
I
like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind
of
deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.
In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill"
I
believe that step is a steep, or hill.
I
have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well.....
I
also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period
of
time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research
I
can PM you.
Goonie68
catherwood wrote::
(yes, we really are having more of a discussion about the verse now, in the image thread, oh well)
I like wondering about the local team, the San Francisco Giants, and what kind of deliberate double meaning is being used here. It is unlikely to be a coincidence, but it would have been risky to use something as ephemeral as a banner or sign as a clue. However, is there such a measurement as a "step" in baseball? Taking a "Giant's step" could be the distance from home plate to first base, for example.
In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill" I believe that step is a steep, or hill. I have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well..... I also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period of time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research I can PM you.
I'd entertain that notion. PM it me.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
In baseball, the pitcher in his motion throwing the ball, he takes a giant step towards home plate before he releases the ball. The place where the pitcher stands is called the "Mound" or the "Hill"
I
believe that step is a steep, or hill.
I
have outlined this in my research but not made it public....because well.....
I
also believe that there are connections between NY and SF. Both Cites had baseball teams the NY Giants (NY) and SF Giants (SF). Also Priess lived in both NY and the bay area for a period
of
time while he went to Stanford. If anyone would like know more about my research
I
can PM you.
I
'd entertain that notion. PM it me.
Goonie68
Not sure how much of a connection to the Actual teams......but if you look at the bottom 3 loops on the dragons tail. The light blue shape in the loops resemble a diamond, the Big Rec ball field there are 2 baseball diamond's that line up with the tail. The first loop is larger then the second loop which lines up with the way both fields are shaped. Now here the interesting thing is that the 3rd loop at the end of the tail has a small round shape in the middle....pearl??? Maybe in "jewels direction"
?? I guess it's one more rabbit hole??? GRRR!
Goonie68
Not sure how much
of
a connection to the Actual teams......but if you look at the bottom 3 loops on the dragons tail. The light blue shape in the loops resemble a diamond, the Big Rec ball field there are 2 baseball diamond's that line up with the tail. The first loop is larger then the second loop which lines up with the way both fields are shaped. Now here the interesting thing is that the 3rd loop at the end
of
the tail has a small round shape in the middle....pearl??? Maybe in "jewels direction"
??
I
guess it's one more rabbit hole??? GRRR!
drunknerds
I
still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.
drunknerds
I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.
And I think that's exactly what Preiss wanted you to think. Initially.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I
still say it's just taking a giant step away from some pole, to avoid digging at its base.
And
I
think that's exactly what Preiss wanted you to think. Initially.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I noticed something new on this image:
There are two very similar (almost exact) side-by-side images on both the Boston illustration and the San Francisco illustration.
Do I know the significance? No. But it is interesting that both sets of paired images are on the woman's robes.
Links to each below. Go to town, hive mind!
San Francisco:
https://imgur.com/a/ZLueo
Boston:
https://imgur.com/a/lUIWF
I've thought about that. My knee jerk reaction is street signs or mapping/surveying markers.
Or maybe they are BP hieroglyphics. Anyone have the Preissetta Stone?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I
noticed something new on this image:
There are two very similar (almost exact) side-by-side images on both the Boston illustration and the San Francisco illustration.
Do
I
know the significance? No. But it is interesting that both sets
of
paired images are on the woman's robes.
Links to each below. Go to town, hive mind!
San Francisco:
https://imgur.com/a/ZLueo
Boston:
https://imgur.com/a/lUIWF
I
've thought about that. My knee jerk reaction is street signs or mapping/surveying markers.
Or maybe they are BP hieroglyphics. Anyone have the Preissetta Stone?
Goonie68
Could be symbol for Masonic ? Symbol triangle with an eye in the middle??
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing
I
've read all day
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I've read all day
NYCNative
strike13 wrote::
Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing
I
've read all day
LMAO!
NYCNative
strike13 wrote::
Aaaahahahahaha! Best thing I've read all day
LMAO!
Goonie68
Does the body
of
the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason
I
ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline
of
the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??
Goonie68
Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??
davinci4
Goonie68 wrote::
Does the body of the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason I ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline of the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??
I have always favored White Rabbit’s solution (Lafayette Park in SF). The base of the table in the image was identified as a Victorian drinking fountain near the casque site. The resemblance is strikingly similar.
davinci4
Goonie68 wrote::
Does the body
of
the dragon, the different size blocks that make up the body, resemble stones? The reason
I
ask is that in both solves, the casque was right next to something man made, and in the SF illustration there isn't many man made objects in the picture. The clock, the table, possibly the stem and the outline
of
the cable car?? So which man made object is the site identifier??
I
have always favored White Rabbit’s solution (Lafayette Park in SF). The base
of
the table in the image was identified as a Victorian drinking fountain near the casque site. The resemblance is strikingly similar.
treetops
Here is the likeness in question:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view
This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.
treetops
Here is the likeness in question:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view
This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance
of
San Francisco installed at least one
of
these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here is the likeness in question:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view
This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance of San Francisco installed at least one of these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.
I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here is the likeness in question:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZUCkqYN2ElNGTclMlOffNkpFUiQcWkVi/view
This seems very strong to me. The Victorian Alliance
of
San Francisco installed at least one
of
these at Lafayette Park some time before the huge landscaping project that was recently completed there. There might also have been similar fountains in other parks here.
I
like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
I
like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.
I
just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance
of
San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style
of
fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs
of
old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names.
I
'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one
of
the companies to make these, then and now.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.
I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one of the companies to make these, then and now.
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
I like that fountain. Surely there could have been some like that in GGP.
I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the
Senior
Center in Golden Gate Park. Looks like Murdock might have been one of the companies to make these, then and now.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the
Senior
Center in Golden Gate Park.
Good thinking!
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance of San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style of fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs of old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names. I'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park.
Good thinking!
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I
just sent an email off to the Victorian Alliance
of
San Francisco asking for any information they have about that style
of
fountain and whether they were installed in other parks in the city. There might be some pdfs
of
old trade catalogues out there that can lead us to manufacturer and model names.
I
'd sure love for there to have once been one behind the Senior Center in Golden Gate Park.
Good thinking!
treetops
Here we go:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22
Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains.
And just to burn it into your brain:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here we go:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22
Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains.
And just to burn it into your brain:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg
Not bad.
I
like drunknerd's match to the senior center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here we go:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22
Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains.
And just to burn it into your brain:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg
Not bad. I like drunknerd's match to the
senior
center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Here we go:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=22
Obviously these are modern updates on classic styles, but this company has been around for a long time, making similar fountains.
And just to burn it into your brain:
https://www.murdockmfg.com/uploads/fileLibrary/M-C76C.jpg
Not bad. I like drunknerd's match to the senior center dragon pole better, but this is not bad.
drunknerds
I
like the drinking fountain match to the bronze ring. That's great.
I
do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking fountain has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base
of
the pole, none
of
these taperings correspond to those
of
the image, save maybe that big section near the top.
I
've been trying for half an hour to draw some point
of
comparison between the two and
I
can't even find a starting point.
That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another fountain there before that bore a more striking resemblance.
drunknerds
I like the drinking fountain match to the bronze ring. That's great.
I do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking fountain has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base of the pole, none of these taperings correspond to those of the image, save maybe that big section near the top. I've been trying for half an hour to draw some point of comparison between the two and I can't even find a starting point.
That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another fountain there before that bore a more striking resemblance.
drunknerds
I like the drinking
fountain
match to the bronze ring. That's great.
I do not see any match between the bases. The image base widens past its post on four spots before tapering down to a long pole at the bottom. The drinking
fountain
has 9-10 different "widenings" before reaching the long narrow base of the pole, none of these taperings correspond to those of the image, save maybe that big section near the top. I've been trying for half an hour to draw some point of comparison between the two and I can't even find a starting point.
That said, contacting the company was a great idea: Maybe there was another
fountain
there before that bore a more striking resemblance.
treetops
Generally agreed on the specific Murdock fountain not being quite as perfect a match as I'd like.
treetops
Generally agreed on the specific Murdock
fountain
not being quite as perfect a match as I'd like.
treetops
Generally agreed on the specific Murdock fountain not being quite as perfect a match as
I
'd like.
Goonie68
So the thinking is that it's a
fountain
and not a cable car for the base??
Goonie68
So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base??
treetops
I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
treetops
I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's
fountain
discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking
fountain
base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
treetops
I
was leaning cable car until
I
was reminded
of
White Rabbit's fountain discovery.
I
really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead
of
a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base??
I
'm
of
the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and fountain/pole/building/etc.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
So the thinking is that it's a fountain and not a cable car for the base??
I'm of the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and fountain/pole/building/etc.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
So the thinking is that it's a
fountain
and not a cable car for the base??
I'm of the opinion that items in the image are used as references to multiple items. Could be both a cable car and
fountain
/pole/building/etc.
treetops
The existence
of
this type
of
fountain in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.
treetops
The existence of this type of fountain in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.
treetops
The existence of this type of
fountain
in GGP, now or in the past, is purely speculative anyway. Any locals here remember seeing them at some point before the current, blockier fountains were installed? Time to dive back into the image archives.
Goonie68
Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks?
Goonie68
Agree or disagree: The body
of
the dragon represents stones or bricks?
treetops
Closest things
I
've seen in GGP are the stones
of
both the Sharon Arts Studio building and the McLaren Lodge. Similar irregular sizes, though
I
haven't gone around either hunting for groupings that are exact matches.
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/McLaren_Lodge-586x286.jpg
https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uaixrjSr_xs/fit=1000x750/sharon-art-studio-2.jpg
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Agree or disagree: The body
of
the dragon represents stones or bricks?
Yes, or city blocks is my bet.
I
just haven't had the patience to try and match them up.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Agree or disagree: The body of the dragon represents stones or bricks?
Yes, or city blocks is my bet. I just haven't had the patience to try and match them up.
treetops
Closest things I've seen in GGP are the stones of both the Sharon Arts Studio building and the McLaren Lodge. Similar irregular sizes, though I haven't gone around either hunting for groupings that are exact matches.
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/wp-content/uploads/McLaren_Lodge-586x286.jpg
https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000uaixrjSr_xs/fit=1000x750/sharon-art-studio-2.jpg
Goonie68
What if I told you I know of a picture of golden gate park with a cable car in it!
Goonie68
What if
I
told you
I
know
of
a picture
of
golden gate park with a cable car in it!
davinci4
treetops wrote::
I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's fountain discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”
treetops
Bring it on! Those "cable car" party buses don't count!
davinci4
treetops wrote::
I
was leaning cable car until
I
was reminded
of
White Rabbit's fountain discovery.
I
really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking fountain base, instead
of
a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”
davinci4
treetops wrote::
I was leaning cable car until I was reminded of White Rabbit's
fountain
discovery. I really prefer it be a specific marker in the dig area, like a drinking
fountain
base, instead of a useless, "Hey there, San Francisco here!" indicator
Agreed. There is a lot to like in the White Rabbit solution as well that seem Preiss-esque, including Octavia (the Eighth), the long palm (tennis court). Also would add Spreckels Mansion as the “White House.”
Goonie68
LL NO party bus here!!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=
i
&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769
Brought!
Goonie68
LL NO party bus here!!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769
Brought!
Goonie68
Check out the BIG WHEEL in the picture!!! Must date it to about 1970's to 1980's!
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
:rofl LL NO party bus here!!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=
i
&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769
Brought!
Boy,
I
love those old death trap playgrounds! Man, that was when you could really have a good time.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
:rofl LL NO party bus here!!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwib8Z2Jv7_ZAhVMsxQKHcz1BqwQjhx6BAgAEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sanfranciscodays.com%2Fpark-history%2F&psig=AOvVaw1miMx64JL3zvq1RzgM_C-9&ust=1519594012663769
Brought!
Boy, I love those old death trap playgrounds! Man, that was when you could really have a good time.
drunknerds
Oh, I forgot to mention, the quick litmus test that eliminates 90% of potential pole matches, at least for me, is "does it have a rectangle?"
The image clearly has a large rectangular section. Now, obviously, in 3 dimensions it might be rounded, but it's still a cylinder- so it has a cross section and profile of a rectangle.
I just can't see BP or JJP looking at a picture of a post that rounds out and thinking "I'll paint that as a completely different shape." That's not a puzzle, that's just drawing something wrong.
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
No kidding... there used to be a decommissioned jet you could crawl all over in Larson Park in the Sunset District... literally tunnel all the way through it from the air intake below the cockpit to the tail. The thing was a tetanus factory -- last I heard they removed it and are trying to get it restored for a museum!
Haha I used to love that!
"NO MORE WAR TOYS"
Goonie68
DUDE that jet was the boom!!!! Had swim lessons down the street at the swim center!!!
Goonie68
YEP!!! I would of been 70's
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
YEP!!! I would of been 70's
Oh, I had swim lessons there in 1981 when I was 3.
Awesome!
Goonie68
Ok back to the hunt! After looking at my research again and again, lol I have to agree with Gman on then end of my theory "is a little loose" I started to take a look at the verse of " in jewel's direction" which I find that many people skip, seems like what all I have read is that people just jump to Twains object or attention. Going over the book it's kind of hard to ignore the page with Team Spirit, which is a picture of Monte Irvin in a Giants uniform and other players in the back ground with NY (Giants) uniforms. The baseball connection is just to good to pass up, because of the Giants connection to SF. So looking at the verse and then at the illustration, I believe that in jewel's direction is the Big Rec Ball field. I know this theory has been brought up before and there has been digs in this area, but I don't believe that the clues stop there. There are 2 baseball diamond's, which if you look at the two loops at the end of the tail, they are almost 100% match with the infield pitching mounds. The loops have a light blue tear drop shape that match's these fields. One diamond is larger then the other and this shows up in the illustration with the first loop larger then the second loop. I have to believe that jewel's is referring to diamond's...plain and simple. If you look at a map of the field you will see the tear drop pitchers mound. I was in the park on Sunday to verify that from ground level you could make out the tear drop shape and it was 100% match. I believe the clue in the book points to this part of the park and it is verified by verse and illustration with help from the book. Now here is what else I found going in that direction. The object of twain's is baseball, he was a huge baseball fan and was involved with a pro team back in the 1800"s ,this among the other clues tells you that you are going in the right direction. If you look at the three loops at the end of the dragon's tail there is a smaller loop at the end, that is closed by the small line at the very end of the tail. This is a complete circle with a smaller circle in the middle. I believe this to be the Carousel in the children's playground. Twain's attention would be children, since he wrote very famous novels about children's books make good senses that this would be the clue. Bringing you to this part of the park, which if you look at the illustration, the top of the dragon's head (senior center) move down to crossover drive, (arms) then to strawberry hill (strawberry in the middle) then to the 6 like shape (music note) below the strawberry ( music concourse) to the baseball diamonds ( big rec ball field) two loops at the bottom of the tail, to the third loop ( Carousel) puts you at the children's playground and with the cable car identifier from the picture I posted earlier. This route brings you through almost the whole park from west to east passing all the major landmarks that Priess wanted us to see. Looking at the two solves in Chicago and Cleveland, both has a man made structure to identify the casques location. In the SF puzzle there is not much to go on, I look at the pattern in the dragon and it appears that they are stone or bricks and that this is going to be the identifier when you reach the casque location. I found two indicators of this around the children's playground. So Giant Pole could be the Carousel, the middle of the carouse is connected to a very large pole that turns the base of the carousel, and directly behind the carousel is a building with a stone pattern and on the side of it has a large concrete barrier that you would have to take a large step up and over too. Once you have stepped up on this concert barrier it leads you to a stair case made out of stone. ( I will post pictures later tonight of my finds) The other location is what would of been right behind the cable car or behind the slide with the wood steps,(in the picture) is a stair case made out of stone. This stair case has 2 levels and curves like the dragons tail. The stair case has a rail that is attached from top to bottom. The stones in the stair case are a good match to the blocks that make up the dragons body. I think we need to be looking for some sort of stone for indicator of the location of the casque. I think the Giant pole ( flag pole) is not correct. Digging up at the base of flag poles would not be a good idea and I don't think Priess would want people destroying areas around a flag pole since they are very special place. Thoughts?? I will post pictures later tonight of the stone areas.
drunknerds
Interesting, Giant step meaning the baseball fields seems good.
The theory tunnels just a bit in the middle for me.
For instance, I can't imagine Preiss or anyone looking at a children's park and thinking, "I'll reference an author not directly associated with this park, AND I'll choose Mark Twain over the thousands of authors more associated with children." Anyone can look anywhere, find an object they think fits the solve, then link Mark Twain to that object.
I'd like to see a picture of these stones that resemble the dragon scales, as well as the trolley car. I like that you take pictures on the ground and share them, thanks.
Also, if you're taking a giant step away from the flagpole base, you can't be "digging up at the base," so I found that argument fundamentally flawed. Also, while digging at the base of most flagpoles would seem a bit sacrilege, it's quite reasonable that it could have been a flagpole without a flag outside a building that was being transitioned at the time, and thus vacant. I don't think digging a few feet away from there would be weird. However, even though you didn't mention this, I personally would be afraid to dig too near a flagpole base because I'd be afraid it would fall over on me. So there's a point there.
Goonie68
Well Twain did have an infatuation with children, there are so many Twain references to everything in the city it's hard to say yes or no, but the loops in the tail show us something and the third loops also is telling us something and leads to that part of the park. Maybe there was play structures that had a boat or a frog or something that is not there anymore. Well even with no actual flag on a pole I still think he wouldn't of wanted people to be digging up near a base (or giant step) of these types of poles. I mean if you look at where these are in the park they are well manicured places and digging around it would not be a good thing, for the park or a pole that once held a flag? Just my opinion. Also with the cable car picture reinforces that area.
Goonie68
Thanks Dnerds I try and bring light to information I find or share so that we can peal back the layers to this onion!
maltedfalcon
this is the chinatown - portsmouth square streetlights.
posted here for davinci4
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I personally would be afraid to dig too near a flagpole base because I'd be afraid it would fall over on me.
I can not imagine. I will say, however, that if your hole is big enough and deep enough to destabilize a flagpole, then more than likely you are digging in the wrong spot. Just to be clear, I have never been a fan of the Senior Center flagpole as a dig spot (it is not a new theory), but there is one very compelling reason to consider that it may be the starting point for the search.
erexere
Goonies, great wall of text.
Erpobdelliforme, are you keeping track of peoples theories? which one do you favor? There's so many...Coit Tower, Strawberry Hill, Russian Hill, Legion, Goldengate Park...
I'm kind of interested in whether the USS San Francisco monument ties in. It was docked at Pearl Harbor, so I like that little pearl connection.
I don't think the senior center is at all part of this puzzle.
Goonie68
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I can not imagine. I will say, however, that if your hole is big enough and deep enough to destabilize a flagpole, then more than likely you are digging in the wrong spot. Just to be clear, I have never been a fan of the Senior Center flagpole as a dig spot (it is not a new theory), but there is one very compelling reason to consider that it may be the starting point for the search.
I have always believed that the senior center is the starting point.
Goonie68
GG, I believe that both NY and SF represent both baseball diamonds in GGP, if you will. I mean why take the trouble of putting in a page that contains ball players with NY and SF jerseys? Plus if we are looking in the park, we have baseball fields which connects the book to the location. Not sure if this makes senses but to me it's connects lol. I haven't heard a better connection for jewel's direction and baseball diamonds, jewel's go hand in hand I think, but I could be way out of the ball park here LOL!! As far as the cable car, It's hard for me to remember A cable car because my father worked for Gallo Salami off of Bryant st and the main logo is a cable car and we used to go to many events that had a cable car in it! I did find a link that has people talking about the cable car in the playground in the 70's I will try and find it. I am going to message the parks super that I meet and see if he knows when the cable car was taken out of the park. Maybe he knows somebody that can recall that information?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Erpobdelliforme, are you keeping track of peoples theories?
Not consciously E. It's just a byproduct of following the forum for all these years, reading all the posts, keeping an open mind, and having a pretty decent memory. Here's hoping that one day, one of us will find the right combination of things, and crack this puzzle. Not for nothing, but I think the dragon at the SC is one of those things.
Goonie68
The ball fields are also home to the vintage baseball league and the diamonds are off of 7th and Ivring....Monte Irving ?? book, coincidence ? I think not lol
gManTexas
Forgive me guys, where are getting Monte Irving from?
Goonie68
In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it
page 904 of the ebook
maltedfalcon
As far as the rest of the book
Yes there is a SF giant player (there are also NY Giants players...)
There is a fairy called the Corporate Giant in the book (NY and NJ)
There is a fairy I think called the Tinkerbelle photographed in a SF chinatown phonebooth...
There is a picture of a train numbered 982 that is the train # in houston.
There is a Section that refers to fairys in Chicago and shows cubs hats...
That being said NOTHING in the rest of the book has been shown to be a clue for Chicago or Cleveland.
Byron specifically said the rest of the book has nothing to do with the hunt....
erexere
I assume Preiss had total control over the publication. Who's to say a few small hob-hints didn't sneak into the Lonely editing chamber while Shmug snoozed on a giant pile of pez candies.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
In the book The Secret under Team Sprit the( fair people) I am not sure what page don't have the book in front of me. But it's pretty clear to me when you see it
I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything!
Someone PM me please.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything!
Someone PM me please.
Best bet is the secret Kindle edition amazon about $19
nice scans - the reprint (the one with the white border around the cover, or the hardback) are not worth the paper they are printed on
images are dim and contain all kinds of scanner artifacts...
Goonie68
There is also a reference to Carl Marx ( Marx meadow in the park) in the book, but I find it very, very hard to believe that these are just coincidence and random placing in the book that can relate to the puzzle. Yes he said that it has no relation to the puzzle..... if there is no connection then why write the book? In my opinion he must of thrown in a few Easter eggs, he also said he thought the puzzle would be solved in 1 years time.....30 + years later....So not sure I would completely agree the notion that there are no hints in the book.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Best bet is the secret Kindle edition amazon about $19
nice scans - the reprint (the one with the white border around the cover, or the hardback) are not worth the paper they are printed on
images are dim and contain all kinds of scanner artifacts...
Let me pose the question, the OCR version (I'm sure you are all familiar), how abridged is it? It seems to have the meat we need but not the potatoes where some other tidbits might be. I count 41 total pages in the OCR version.
drunknerds
Huckleberry house is right next to golden gate park and seems to have been around in 1980
https://www.huckleberryyouth.org/crisis-shelter/
drunknerds
I've found another match with the base of the flagpole:
catherwood
gManTexas wrote::
I must be working with the Cliff Notes version. No wonder I can't solve anything!
"Team Spirits" are described on page 88 of the original book, with the accompanying photo of "Mr.Irvin" on page 89. Many of the black-and-white photos look like a bad Xerox copy of a color original, not a proper snapsnot made with B&W film. If someone made a reproduction of these, the quality must be horrible, if the so-called OCR edition even contains these images.
Goonie68
These pic are from the stair case behind the playground.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465898052/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698093370/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465970862/in/dateposted-public/
This is behind the Carousel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26637487528/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465998972/in/dateposted-public/
This appears to be a stair case coming down from MLK. You step up on the concert ledge and this is what you see.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698241140/in/dateposted-public/
Goonie68
Cable Car picture
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
Link to stories about the cable car in the park.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3y_vvgcXZAhXQxqQKHYRCD-kQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.play-scapes.com%2Fplay-history%2Ftbt-cable-car-on-the-playground-san-francisco-c-1950%2F&usg=AOvVaw3LbKgVroHT27XRguMHsnKq
Pic of iron stem and flower Art studio
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698337530/in/dateposted-public/
burnstyle
gManTexas wrote::
Let me pose the question, the OCR version (I'm sure you are all familiar), how abridged is it? It seems to have the meat we need but not the potatoes where some other tidbits might be. I count 41 total pages in the OCR version.
200+ pages in the actual book.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
These pic are from the stair case behind the playground.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465898052/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698093370/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465970862/in/dateposted-public/
This is behind the Carousel.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26637487528/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465998972/in/dateposted-public/
This appears to be a stair case coming down from MLK. You step up on the concert ledge and this is what you see.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/38698241140/in/dateposted-public/
Goonie! Is that the stone wall's door?!?
Goonie68
Well if this is a starting point, but I have this area at the end of my path.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Well if this is a starting point, but I have this area at the end of my path.
Does the door or window in Image 1 have to be stone wall's door? I mean, we just assumed that, right?
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
Does the door or window in Image 1 have to be stone wall's door? I mean, we just assumed that, right?
No it does not- yes most people do, in the solved casques, the columns in the image are called out in the verse in cleveland, and this is a key to finding the site. In Chicago the fence and fixture are both called out and they indicate the final site.
So logically if it is not referenced by stone walls door, then it is not within sight of the casque.
gManTexas
Everyone, get on street view and look at the entrance to the Sharon Art Center. Then look around at the streetlamp. Then look right next door at the flagpole at the bowling greens.
Goonie68
The picture I took of the Door was for the stone pattern on it. You can see there are two smaller stones by a lager one to the left of the door. If you look at the middle of the dragon (in the 6) there is a distinct pattern of blocks, I was thinking that the pattern might be a locator or indicator of a casque location. The ledge next to the door would be a giant step and across would be giant pole (carousel) . Just a theory tho.
Goonie68
I like the thought of the cable car, the stone pattern and of course the baseball diamonds that brought me to the play ground. The path way behind the door building was like...what do we have here!!!! a stone walk way?? Hidden!!! But who knows??? LOL
Goonie68
The flag pole is at the Park and Rec main grounds headquarters in the park, looks to new to be " the pole"
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
The flag pole is at the Park and Rec main grounds headquarters in the park, looks to new to be " the pole"
Was there an older pole at one time? Also, this area give you a clear view of Sutro Tower, doesn't it?
gManTexas
If we look at the image, the feature to the left of her head, and just above lincoln/jfk/Fred Flintstone looks like a hand holding a lawn bowling ball. If you zoom in, it is also a bunny. You'll spot the whiskers. Bunny Meadow is on that end of the park.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
You DO NOT want to mess with the lawn bowling club... they will not hesitate to get blood on their whites if they catch you digging near their turf.
Lol, duly noted!
Goonie68
Yes you get a good view of the tower for sure!
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
The picture I took of the Door was for the stone pattern on it. You can see there are two smaller stones by a lager one to the left of the door. If you look at the middle of the dragon (in the 6) there is a distinct pattern of blocks, I was thinking that the pattern might be a locator or indicator of a casque location. The ledge next to the door would be a giant step and across would be giant pole (carousel) . Just a theory tho.
Going back to when I first started looking at GGP, I was centered on the area near the playground. Before my head was filled with all sorts of possibilities, I basically walked through what I believed was a logical set of pointers from the Image and Verse. I've looked at it again and I have come to the same stumbling block. Giant pole, Giant step.
I could argue that the police station next to Kezar Stadium is Justice and the California Academy of Sciences is Education. So, if we were standing somewhere in the vicinity of what is now Robin Williams Meadow, we are central to many of the clues, however, you cannot actually see all of these things. Now, it is up for debate on another thread whether all of the clues can be seen from the dig site, however, this is where this starts to fall apart near the playground. Where is the giant pole? What is the giant step? This is the albatross of this puzzle.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Cable Car picture
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39756932514/in/dateposted-public/
Link to stories about the cable car in the park.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3y_vvgcXZAhXQxqQKHYRCD-kQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.play-scapes.com%2Fplay-history%2Ftbt-cable-car-on-the-playground-san-francisco-c-1950%2F&usg=AOvVaw3LbKgVroHT27XRguMHsnKq
Goonie, if you go to the article you linked, which by the way made my virus blocker pop up, look at the photo of the kids climbing on the front of the car. There is a shiny building in the back to the left. The two girls on top of the car appear to be gazing at a Giant pole. Can anyone identify this and was this photo of the same car in the GGP playground?
hxxp://www.play-scapes.com/wp-content/u ... e-car3.jpg
In the meantime, I will try to see if I can orient myself to the same view if possible.
Goonie68
Gman, I believe the cable car was move several times in the park. Or the pic with the girls in it was a different location in the city. If you look at the fence in the back ground it appears to be a ball field with a large pole might by a light. The fence sits on a hill and the cable car is below the hill with a building in the back ground, which would suggest it's in a different location other than GGP. I think the couple of pictures in the link are showing different cable car's in the city, but the one with the slide is GGP.
Goonie68
Objects that are identified in the park as "Giant pole" Flag Pole, stair case railings, Lamp posts, sign posts and the only other large pole that is not very visible is the pole inside the carousel. Totem pole (which is no longer there) Or north Pole?? Not sure there is any other pole in the park?
treetops
At various points in the past, cable cars were also used as playground fixtures at the zoo (near an old locomotive) and, I believe, outside a child services center, which might be where the photo with the building in the background is from.
Regarding the card shelter currently behind the conservatory of flowers, this was built in 1988, using the large chess pieces from a the Ghirardelli Card Shelter that used to be north of Alvord Lake, not far from the playground. I have searched for a photo of this old card shelter without success. It would have been in terrible shape in the early 80s, but I keep thinking, could it have had a decoration of one of the card suits ("Ace is high")?
Finally, have you been through the tunnel beneath the Alvord bridge in your recent wanderings? I imagine you'll find some echoes in there of the background from image 1.
Goonie68
treetops wrote::
At various points in the past, cable cars were also used as playground fixtures at the zoo (near an old locomotive) and, I believe, outside a child services center, which might be where the photo with the building in the background is from.
Regarding the card shelter currently behind the conservatory of flowers, this was built in 1988, using the large chess pieces from a the Ghirardelli Card Shelter that used to be north of Alvord Lake, not far from the playground. I have searched for a photo of this old card shelter without success. It would have been in terrible shape in the early 80s, but I keep thinking, could it have had a decoration of one of the card suits ("Ace is high")?
Finally, have you been through the tunnel beneath the Alvord bridge in your recent wanderings? I imagine you'll find some echoes in there of the background from image 1.
I have been to the Alvord bridge and on the lake side there is a lamp post just as you come out of the tunnel, but couldn't figure out from the pole giant step? The little pond does have rock formations in it but couldn't match any to image but maybe I didn't look at it more closely. Yes I do agree that the cable cars where used at the zoo and other play grounds, I spoke to the guy that runs the snack shake at the carousel and asked him if he know about the cable car that was possibly there and he said he knew of it being in the playground but could not give a time line to when it was removed.
treetops
I was thinking of the imitation natural rock formations inside the tunnel itself in connection with the background vista in image 1.
I'm still really needing an alternate match for the dragon to tear myself away from the senior center, even though there's so little else to work with out there.
Goonie68
treetops wrote::
I was thinking of the imitation natural rock formations inside the tunnel itself in connection with the background vista in image 1.
I'm still really needing an alternate match for the dragon to tear myself away from the senior center, even though there's so little else to work with out there.
So your theory is that the senior center is the casque location?
treetops
I'm doubtful of the front lawn of the senior center being the actual burial spot, but the ironwork phoenixes are such a perfect match for the dragon, and such an obscure feature (compared to the bandshell, stow lake, prayerbook cross, museums, etc.), that for the casque to be more than 1000' from there would at least be a level of insanity beyond what we've seen in Cleveland and Chicago. It would be like the Chicago casque being over a mile from the fencepost.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
IMAGE 1 OBSERVATIONS:
Symbol theories:
2) The upside down VI = 6th Ave entrance off of Fulton which had just been converted into a pedestrian entrance in 81 making it a brand new feature when Preiss buried the casque.
4) The “Double D’s” on the bottom… there have been several theories. Here’s a new (maybe stupid) one to consider with a grain of salt: Grateful Dead. The first D doesn’t look complete… in fact it looks like a G. The Dead’s concerts in GGP are legendary — in the 80s, they were still very much a fabric of San Francisco.
VERSE 7 OBSERVATIONS:
STONE WALL’S DOOR
I take this to be more of general meaning than others do. As you entered GGP in 82, just as you do today, much of it is surrounded by STONE WALLS… tall walls, and short walls. But don’t get locked into the idea that the stone wall’s door must to be an arch. Yes, there are bridges and tunnels in GGP with stone arches… some with barred gates (that were also there then), so it’s a possibility, but doors come in all shapes and sizes
TWAIN’S ATTENTION
My first choice is the paddle boats. They were there in 81. There was also a renewed attention on Stow Lake because the Pavilion was NEW and a big deal! Permanent changes to GGP are RARE… when there’s a new feature, it is front and center in park maps, guide books, and shiny new signs pointing the way. In 81, the Huntington Falls were still broken but the paddle boats were out in force. You couldn't miss the sound of the mini paddle wheels lazily churning on the water. Their very name literally elicits a very central, universal image and essence of Mark Twain. This is an accessible clue — it’s not an obscure reference of one of the thousands of things and people that attracted Twain’s attention over his lifetime. Priess wanted us to find the casque by exploring OUTSIDE… not to be buried in research libraries for years (remember this is wayyyy pre-google / smart phone era).
I think the Double D on the bottom of the image is in fact the arched tunnel at Kezar at the very East side of the park. Or it is possibly the combination of the tunnel and the half circle entrance to the park where Haight dead-ends.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
It would be like the Chicago casque being over a mile from the fencepost.
Or the Cleveland casque being over 4 miles from the Terminal Tower.
treetops
It's dangerously easy to pin hopes on this enigmatic card shelter. For instance, what if the bas relief of Ghirardelli matched the "lincoln/JFK" profile? I really want to find pictures of it just to see that it was a drab, unadorned, run-down hovel.
treetops
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Or the Cleveland casque being over 4 miles from the Terminal Tower.
Except the Terminal Tower is a major, well-known architectural landmark. The ironwork over the door of a Senior Center way out towards the ocean, not so much.
Goonie68
For me I am locked in for the hunt to start at the senior center, To me it fits the criteria of both casque found. It starts on the outer edge of the park and you work your way in. To me the second verse "air smells sweet" goes hand in hand with spreckels lake. Sugar and Sweet go better together then Flower and sweet?? Plus flowers only bloom a certain time of the year so that would bring your search from March to June. So if you are looking for sweet smell of flowers in Sept your out of luck! I think Senior and Spreckels fit well into the way the puzzle works. Then you walk right into "three posts are high" right from the lake view. It just seems very fluid in the path you take from the senior center, Verse, Physical location verified by illustration. With the dragon being really the clincher above the door confirms this is a point of interest. Again just my view lol
starke49
I too have looked for reasonable Dragon matches and so far these are the best seen, I am not ruling out others, but right now this matches as a waypoint IMO. Is it starting middle or end, I really cannot say, but if you count the curved railing staircase it leans toward the beginning or end. The clues that have us perplexed are the giant pole and giant step, which the Cliff House and the Goddess of the forest would have fit, but those have been either explored or destroyed as documented by Malted Falcon many moons ago. Twain's attention is so vast and vague a clue it is nearly worthless without the pole and step. Jewels direction is also vague as we have the Palace of fine arts area, Pearl St. and many other items that can be related. I will be back to do a walk around in the area of the Senior Center and the Conservatory of flowers soon. If you come in the Arguello entrance it has a stone wall which is behind the conservatory of flowers and views of the Sutro tower and College so it must be considered by me for now. And that is another issue in that the Tower is visible from over 50% of San Francisco so once again if this is a clue it is not definitive. Anyway I want to say anyone who finds anything of extreme importance or a match should consider letting the people who have been looking and on this board since the beginning first as they have put in so much time and eliminated so many sites that I feel they have earned it.
Good Luck.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Except the Terminal Tower is a major, well-known architectural landmark.
And for the purposes of this puzzle, so now is the dragon at the Senior Center. The real question, IMO, is why is this "Polaroid" included in the Image? If it is a dig spot clue, then shouldn't we be digging within a few feet of it, like we do in Chicago and Cleveland, and not up to 1,000 feet away? That would make it an area confirmer, like the Bowman, or the fountain in the Italian Garden, but as you say, those are big and well-known and this is not.
gManTexas
I have put together a map of GGP of various objects that can be seen in Image 1 and also some locations suspected in Verse 7. I think it is helpful to look at the map and envision being in the park. You can see the "spray chart" of popular locations and other confirming items. This is NOT a solve. It is based on recent discussion on this thread and focuses on the Eastern side of the park.
Feel free to save and edit it for your own use, or we can use it a crowd source document to expand on the hunt. Also, you can throw in your observations.
Please note: This only focuses on the Eastern portion of the park, up to around 14th Ave.
Thanks!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/az8cdnlif03p6 ... .docx?dl=0
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Hey G-man! That's really awesome! I don't want to accidentally screw up the your work in the file, so I'll mention here, the stairs leading from Kezar down to the playground area are really interesting and maybe worth marking? Thanks for the map... really great resource!
Thanks for the props! The stairs are such a new development, I want to give it time to steep and see what rises to the top. We certainly can add detail as we go. Consider this a living document.
drunknerds
Great work!
Have you considered knocking out a few holes around the senior center while these new landmarks are developing into a theory? I know Goonie thought it would be weird for BP to dig by a flagpole but GGP let Maltedfalcon dig there. I just feel there might be more to the ~3 door-image matches and ~3 flagpole-image matches than just a starting spot
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
GGP let Maltedfalcon dig there.
actually for that dig i just asked at the senior center.
the person i asked was a metal detetctorist
so I got lucky
gManTexas
The smaller building that is boarded up near the carousel. What is it? Ticket booth? Concession stand? Maintenance shed?
jermajerm
I like the idea of the casque being in that end of the park... At one point I thought that "High posts are three" talked about the field goals at Kesar.
Goonie68
Continuing in jewel's direction ( Big Reg ball field) is an object, I believe it could be the carousel , Of Twains attention , Frog.
In the illustration
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/26675429368/in/dateposted-public/
Frog!
Carousel Frog
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40503360112/in/dateposted-public/
Giant Pole
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40546926981/in/dateposted-public/
Giant step
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40465884972/in/dateposted-public/
The stone pattern resembles the dragons body It also curves like the dragon.
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39651412985/in/dateposted-public/
Silhouette matchs the silhouette of the carousel
Goonie68
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39835860194/in/dateposted-public/
Lincoln?
treetops
My understanding of the state of the southeast playground circa 1981 is that the carousel building was present, but closed while the animals were being restored from damage done by leaks over the years. As for the Sharon Art Building, it had a fire in 1974 and was still not fixed from that. So really, not a very lively sounding place, though I imagine the swings and such were still available for kids to play on. Any long-timers remember how lively and maintained the playground was in the early 80s?
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
My understanding of the state of the southeast playground circa 1981 is that the carousel building was present, but closed while the animals were being restored from damage done by leaks over the years. As for the Sharon Art Building, it had a fire in 1974 and was still not fixed from that. So really, not a very lively sounding place, though I imagine the swings and such were still available for kids to play on. Any long-timers remember how lively and maintained the playground was in the early 80s?
This is great info. Do you know what the small building next to the carousel is/was?
treetops
gManTexas wrote::
This is great info. Do you know what the small building next to the carousel is/was?
No idea. It's funny, because I was by there just last week wondering about that little place. The carousel was originally steam-powered. Could that building have been park of the operating machinery, a ticket booth, a maintenance shed? I might need to get up the gumption to go over to the McLaren Lodge and start asking nutty questions about the park's history.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
No idea. It's funny, because I was by there just last week wondering about that little place. The carousel was originally steam-powered. Could that building have been park of the operating machinery, a ticket booth, a maintenance shed? I might need to get up the gumption to go over to the McLaren Lodge and start asking nutty questions about the park's history.
Just tell them you are from the office of a potential benefactor who is really rich and interested in preservation.
Goonie68
From photo's that I have seen the building looks like it's been there a while. Yes the Carousel was under repair at that time but, it is a main staple in the park and I can see Preiss including it in the puzzle, Even if it was not in operation it still would of been a major mark in the park. There could of been enough work done on the carousel to include it in the puzzle.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/
treetops
Both the carousel and the Sharon Building have been there for a VERY long time (1940s and 1880s respectively). I wasn't meaning to dismiss either as relevant to the solve, just trying to get an idea of what Preiss would have encountered had he been there. For instance, if the carousel was boarding up and the animals removed, he could reasonably reference the structure's exterior, but not a specific animal like the frog.
Goonie68
True, anyone see the frog in the illustration? Or am I just seeing it?? LOL
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
Both the carousel and the Sharon Building have been there for a VERY long time (1940s and 1880s respectively). I wasn't meaning to dismiss either as relevant to the solve, just trying to get an idea of what Preiss would have encountered had he been there. For instance, if the carousel was boarding up and the animals removed, he could reasonably reference the structure's exterior, but not a specific animal like the frog.
What is interesting to me is while researching a lot of these cities and parks, how run down they were in 1980. Not sure if Preiss hoped they would be restored, and maybe his book would spur interest in revitalizing these treasures. I'm pleasantly surprised how much work has gone into fixing up the parks since then.
Having said that, the renovations may be detrimental to finding casques 36 years later.
gManTexas
Has anyone considered the Verdi monument? There is a small child holding a flagpole and taking a step on the base. It's right near the Shakespeare Garden. Some people have talked about Verdi and Twain.
Goonie68
So here's a question. How long did it take Press to make the book. 12 paintings ,book illustrations over 200 pages to the book. He might of started this year's before it was released. I think he would of had to have all the ground work done before he sent I'n the photos and instructions
drunknerds
Good thinking. The first thing to do is to see if he did his photography when he did the whirlwind cask burial in 1980. I know its been stated, I believe by BP, that he had JJP do the paintings and wrote the verses after that. So if that were true we'd know everything drawn would have to have been there in 1980, because everything was recreated from photos
Goonie68
My theory on the Twain connection is that if the rock formation in the illustrations is a frog, then to me it ties in Twain to a visible clue. The SF puzzle is dedicated to California, more importantly North California. Twain's clue has better traction to Calaveras county ( Frog Jumping ) than any other connection in northern California. I would think Priess would use this more so then a reference to the Mississippi River. If the object is a frog then with a frog being in the carousel then it ties the direction to that area. Then it ties in the cable car marker, possible ties the pole and then leads to the stair case which is a marker like the fence post or the wall with columns. Again just thinking out loud.
Goonie68
Yes about the camera that would be true that the pictures would not have a whole lot of detail in them , so the outline of the pole would be a silhouette and both cameras (polaroid and DSL) would pick up a silhouette correct?
Goonie68
GG, how I got to the "Frog" was that if the baseball diamonds are in Jewel's direction, then the next step would be Twains' object. Looking at the park and what is in that area the carousel came into play, plus the cable car, plus the stair case. So if there was a Twain clue anywhere near that location, the frog ties in. Yes I agree we all see different things and that's why I believe that a box has not been found in over 30 + years from renovations to speculation on the clues. Just trying a different angle to see what comes out of it...
Goonie68
Yeah I think the problem with the carousel is that maybe the animals where taken and then placed back during a period of time, but I post a picture from 1980 with inside top part of the carousel that looked like it was freshly painted or updated, so that makes me think that you could still see the inside of the carousel and maybe the frog was there at that time
Just a shot?? LOL
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I believe that's correct. I also seem to remember hearing he used a Poloroid camera... so if that was the case, I wouldn't be looking for detailed reference points that are hard to get close to and would require a SLR 35mm camera with a zoom lens to capture.
I can get behind this theory. It's my opinion that three major visual reference sources were used to create the images.
1. Maps
2. Historical photos and paintings
3. Polaroid photos by Preiss
1. Maps would be relatively accurate and sharp. Some elements in the images are sharp and need to be that way for geo-locating us.
2. Photos and paintings allowed for JJP to integrate themes onto the images.
3. Polaroids, while not sharp would give us info on what BP saw at the location. This also would allow Preiss to almost instantly see whether he got the shot versus waiting for film to be developed.
If we look at Image 1, all of the mess in the background could simply be the inherent lack of detail in a Polaroid. Especially if BP was taking them from a distance.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
1. Maps would be relatively accurate and sharp. Some elements in the images are sharp and need to be that way for geo-locating us.
2. Photos and paintings allowed for JJP to integrate themes onto the images.
3. Polaroids, while not sharp would give us info on what BP saw at the location.
Good thinking but consider that the maps BP has been show to have used are the touristy local guide maps that are available near the locations.
Sometimes these can be kind of "cartoony" for lack of a better term.
Polaroids... as a traveler he probably carried the SX-70 folding camera. the sx-70 in particular but in any event all the polaroid models suffered from Barrel Lens Distortion.
hxxp://cjo.info/classic-cameras/polaroi ... nal-model/
This means even if you traced the polaroid photo exactly, there would be some images that didnt exactly match the object.
for instance if you shot a picture looking up at a tapered flagpole in the worst case the flagpole would get wider in the middle but, more common it would just look the same size as it went up
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Good thinking but consider that the maps BP has been show to have used are the touristy local guide maps that are available near the locations.
Sometimes these can be kind of "cartoony" for lack of a better term.
Polaroids... as a traveler he probably carried the SX-70 folding camera. the sx-70 in particular but in any event all the polaroid models suffered from Barrel Lens Distortion.
hxxp://cjo.info/classic-cameras/polaroi ... nal-model/
This means even if you traced the polaroid photo exactly, there would be some images that didnt exactly match the object.
for instance if you shot a picture looking up at a tapered flagpole in the worst case the flagpole would get wider in the middle but, more common it would just look the same size as it went up
Completely agree. I also believe that he must have had a giant atlas that he worked from. This was probably augmented with tourist maps.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
I also believe that he must have had a giant atlas that he worked from. This was probably augmented with tourist maps.
I believe he used National Geographic maps & AAA maps. If you can find some that predate 1981, it helps figure out the way things were.
Goonie68
I have a AAA map of SF from 1978 I will post later tonight.
gManTexas
Is the general consensus the verse 7 is married with image 1 amongst the members here? I'm trying to play by the rules and post verse related topics over in the verse 7 thread, but it's not getting any love. It seems that many of the verse threads now play second fiddle. Should I just post my ramblings here?
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
Is the general consensus the verse 7 is married with image 1 amongst the members here? I'm trying to play by the rules and post verse related topics over in the verse 7 thread, but it's not getting any love. It seems that many of the verse threads now play second fiddle. Should I just post my ramblings here?
Yes, but that is not in any way Set in Stone. It's Just a consensus.
Listen when I first suggested it, Verse 7 was by unanimous consensus paired with image 7 - first it was 7/7 so it had that going for it, but there were long detailed theories, one I think involved the Jax brewery?
but anyway I thought v7 worked with SF better so I argued it... in the end the "consensus" switched around... but that being said, I havent found a casque with it yet...
In general post verse stuff in the verse thread... I guess we all need to get back in the swing of posting things where they belong!
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I have a AAA map of SF from 1978 I will post later tonight.
great!
Goonie68
Opps I posted the map in the verse thread. Sorry .
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Opps I posted the map in the verse thread. Sorry .
It's okay because I made some verse related comments over there.
starke49
Here is a link to PDF with GGP inventory for Historical register it lists dates of construction for areas also -
https://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/ ... 001137.pdf
jermajerm
Happy 100th page everyone!
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
3) the line that goes across the top of the image just under that door, almost appears to be a crease in the painting itself.
If that painting has a glass cover or some other coating, the line you see could be caused by a reflection from a window across the room. I'll need to recover my recording to see how it flows with the camera.
drunknerds
WHY ISN'T THE BARRED DOOR THERE?!
WhiteRabbit
It looks half-finished to me. Curious. Were the illustrations heavily retouched after JJP had rinsed the brushes...?
erexere
There was a second painter on the grassy gnoll.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
There was a second painter on the grassy gnoll.
Lol!
drunknerds
If the door was a last mintue addition by Preiss, it would explain why we can't find an exact match. I doubt Preiss had JJP's ability to recreate from photos so exactly.
treetops
Some more photos from the SFPL local history center:
The Children's Playground in 1981:
Elephant Slide at Playground in 1989:
Senior Center in 1988:
Behind the Senior Center in 1988:
McKinley memorial at the end of the panhandle, which I was not aware was referred to as "Justice":
Still impossible to find images of:
-The old Ghirardelli card shelter north of Alvord Lake
-The small building behind the carousel
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Treetops! Amazing!
I agree, pure gold.
treetops
Unknown:
Reporter Steve Davis explores the history of San Francisco's famous park and current problems relating to long-delayed care of structures and wooded areas. Interviews with park manager Tom Malone and activist Ray Clary illuminate a range of issues related to park restoration.
They have a 26-minute video (as in VHS tape) there from 1983 that I really want to watch next trip:
https://sfpl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/1005597093
I would have checked it out today, but my eyes were just too bleary from squinting at all those little slides on a flickering light box.
catherwood
you've inspired me to watch a video series (of at least 12 parts) called "Lost Landscapes of San Francisco" hosted on
hxxp://longnow.org/
-- they might just be history lectures but i'm hoping for images in the footage.
catherwood
you've inspired me to watch a video series (
of
at least 12 parts) called "Lost Landscapes
of
San Francisco" hosted on
hxxp://longnow.org/
-- they might just be history lectures but
i
'm hoping for images in the footage.
treetops
Lost Landscapes is created by Rick and Meghan Prelinger, who run the Prelinger Libary, which would be a great place to do some more research for the hunt:
hxxp://www.prelingerlibrary.org/home/
They have a big collection of old San Francisco ephemera, planning and engineering documents, and the like.
Another place for online delving for any city is Internet Archive:
https://archive.org/
treetops
Lost Landscapes is created by Rick and Meghan Prelinger, who run the Prelinger Libary, which would be a great place to do some more research for the hunt:
hxxp://www.prelingerlibrary.org/home/
They have a big collection
of
old San Francisco ephemera, planning and engineering documents, and the like.
Another place for online delving for any city is Internet Archive:
https://archive.org/
catherwood
I
started with the most recent video -- they seem to have had these annual events -- which was 70+ minutes
of
home movies and odd documentary outtakes. (Reminds me a bit
of
the Psychotronic Film Festival at Foothill College, for the locals) A lot
of
city streets, but some shots
of
the beach in 1972 (around the 60:minute mark), looking north to the Cliff House
of
that era, and whatever was at the Sutro Baths back then.
I
'll definitely dig into that other archive, thanks. For now, here are the direct links:
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02017/dec/1 ... ncisco-12/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02016/dec/0 ... ncisco-11/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02015/dec/0 ... ncisco-10/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02014/dec/0 ... ancisco-9/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02013/dec/1 ... ancisco-8/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02012/dec/1 ... ancisco-7/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02011/dec/0 ... ancisco-6/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02010/dec/1 ... ancisco-5/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02009/dec/0 ... ancisco-4/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02008/dec/1 ... francisco/
(3rd?)
(
I
didn't find the first two years with the standard search -- maybe they were under a different name at first)
catherwood
I started with the most recent video -- they seem to have had these annual events -- which was 70+ minutes of home movies and odd documentary outtakes. (Reminds me a bit of the Psychotronic Film Festival at Foothill College, for the locals) A lot of city streets, but some shots of the beach in 1972 (around the 60:minute mark), looking north to the Cliff House of that era, and whatever was at the Sutro Baths back then. I'll definitely dig into that other archive, thanks. For now, here are the direct links:
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02017/dec/1 ... ncisco-12/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02016/dec/0 ... ncisco-11/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02015/dec/0 ... ncisco-10/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02014/dec/0 ... ancisco-9/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02013/dec/1 ... ancisco-8/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02012/dec/1 ... ancisco-7/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02011/dec/0 ... ancisco-6/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02010/dec/1 ... ancisco-5/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02009/dec/0 ... ancisco-4/
hxxp://longnow.org/seminars/02008/dec/1 ... francisco/
(3rd?)
(I didn't find the first two years with the standard search -- maybe they were under a different name at first)
drunknerds
Amazing work, hunters!
Anyone have any idea what the bottom
of
that wooden senior center sign says?
drunknerds
Amazing work, hunters!
Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says?
treetops
drunknerds wrote::
Amazing work, hunters!
Anyone have any idea what the bottom of that wooden senior center sign says?
I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"
treetops
drunknerds wrote::
Amazing work, hunters!
Anyone have any idea what the bottom
of
that wooden senior center sign says?
I
think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"
LOL, it also may say, "Lost and Found desk. Inquire inside."
It sure looks like they tore up the lawn to plant that sign.
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
I
think it says, "treetops, get a phone with a better camera already!"
LOL, it also may say, "Lost and Found desk. Inquire inside."
It sure looks like they tore up the lawn to plant that sign.
treetops
Actually, I'm pretty sure it says:
San Francisco
Recreation & Park Dept
treetops
Actually,
I
'm pretty sure it says:
San Francisco
Recreation & Park Dept
drunknerds
Are you sure it didn't say, "A great place for Mark Twain to pay attention?"
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Are you sure it didn't say, "A great place for Mark Twain to pay attention?"
or Mark Twain spent the night here.
drunknerds
Another question is: Was there a sign somewhere indicating it was the police academy before?
"Education and Justice" fits a police academy perfectly, but it's moot if there was no indicator that's what it was.
MrBackstop
Could also be a red-tail hawk or the Perigrine Falcon that SF is known for.
Goonie68
This also can represent a phoenix, the city
of
San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding
of
the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind
of
resembles the illustration.
Goonie68
This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
This also can represent a phoenix, the city of San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding of the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind of resembles the illustration.
Funny I always thought it was a crow.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
This also can represent a phoenix, the city
of
San Francisco's flag represents a phoenix on it to commemorate rebuilding
of
the city in the 1906 earthquake. Look up the flag it kind
of
resembles the illustration.
Funny
I
always thought it was a crow.
drunknerds
Well, I mean, there's this:
I don't think you're going to get an exact match on your bird head: It's either just a coincidence made by the juxtaposition of a curve, an oval, and a triangle... or else it's so rudimentary I just can't see Preiss seeing this children's block eagle and saying "yes! That is art worthy of my book, out of all the art in GGP."
drunknerds
Well,
I
mean, there's this:
I
don't think you're going to get an exact match on your bird head: It's either just a coincidence made by the juxtaposition
of
a curve, an oval, and a triangle... or else it's so rudimentary
I
just can't see Preiss seeing this children's block eagle and saying "yes! That is art worthy
of
my book, out
of
all the art in GGP."
Goonie68
At the entrance of Arguello. From today's trip into the park.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40692393152/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25864538297/in/dateposted-public/
Maybe this is the eagle? Not an exact match, but could be the inspiration?
Goonie68
At the entrance
of
Arguello. From today's trip into the park.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40692393152/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25864538297/in/dateposted-public/
Maybe this is the eagle? Not an exact match, but could be the inspiration?
Goonie68
Pairings from the park today.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40025022834/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25863930167/in/dateposted-public/
This is to show the tree line of the park then and now. Almost lines up with the front tree line and back tree line, of course 30+ years of growth.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840243465/in/dateposted-public/
Possible location the casque is? Stone pattern almost a match to the dragon's body and curve. Step.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840235235/in/dateposted-public/
drunknerds
Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it.
I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer
drunknerds
It would really help me if you opened paint and quickly outlined what you think is a match. For instance, the frog and peak are as different to me as two images could possiblt be, but that's probably because I don't know where to look.
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it.
I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer
Yes it was a zoom in but when standing there you can see the eagle with the naked eye just fine. It wouldn't be a stretch to see it even from ground level.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Pairings from the park today.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40025022834/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/25863930167/in/dateposted-public/
This is to show the tree line of the park then and now. Almost lines up with the front tree line and back tree line, of course 30+ years of growth.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840243465/in/dateposted-public/
Possible location the casque is? Stone pattern almost a match to the dragon's body and curve. Step.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39840235235/in/dateposted-public/
This is good stuff, but wasn't the carousel closed during that time period?
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Wow is that all the way up there? How would Preiss even notice that, let alone capture it.
I've been working on the theory that your eagle is significant in terms of shape. I have some potential matches that I'll post next time I'm at a computer
Didn't you say that BP liked to reference 2 inch tall features on the bottom of a statue? The top would be fair game too.
Goonie68
Yes it was closed, but it has windows and you can see in side, From what I can tell , it looks like the animals might of been there in the early 80's
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/
1980 copyright picture.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
Yes it was closed, but it has windows and you can see in side, From what I can tell , it looks like the animals might of been there in the early 80's
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40505140622/in/dateposted-public/
1980 copyright picture.
I can buy that. Especially any frog connection. It's a little tenuous, but works.
Goonie68
To me the connection with frog brings the Twain clue closer, this is northern California puzzle and most people that live up here know about Calaveras county and the frog jumping contest, would make more sense to connect something to northern California, maybe? I think Twain's involvement in that area is more pronounced then any in SF. Again only my opinion.
maltedfalcon
The carousel was completely dismantled and sent to germany during the timeframe in question.
drunknerds
gManTexas wrote::
Didn't you say that BP liked to reference 2 inch tall features on the bottom of a statue? The top would be fair game too.
Fair point. The key here is that you couldn't get a close up on something high with the cameras at the time. You could close-up on something low.
Goonie, I hear you when you say it is visible with the naked eye, but exactly how high up was it? There's a translation loss between seeing something and taking a 1980 polaroid of that something
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Fair point. The key here is that you couldn't get a close up on something high with the cameras at the time. You could close-up on something low.
Goonie, I hear you when you say it is visible with the naked eye, but exactly how high up was it? There's a translation loss between seeing something and taking a 1980 polaroid of that something
I was just ribbing you a bit.
treetops
Having been through those gates countless times, I can say that the eagles are quite visible from the street. I think the real problem is, that if the overlap in the dragon's tail was deliberately made to resemble an eagle (I seriously doubt it was), it's an abstracted enough depiction to make it impossible to say it represents any particular specimen out of the many, many eagles that adorn statues and other landmarks throughout the park. Just today I passed the Grant monument (eagles), which is near the Key memorial (more eagles). Even if we restrict it to eagles with their heads turned to one side, that doesn't do much to narrow things down.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
Plenty o eagles in GGP, I agree — and I agree none of the candidates so far have been a match — but as someone who practically lived in the Academy of Sciences / steinhart and the De Young in the early 80s, there were countless stylistic WPA era deco friezes , mosaics etc that were lost at those two locations in the years after the earthquake and subsequent remodeling. To me that image is a purposeful and highly specific stylized example meant to be recognized. If it’s gone, it’s gone but certainly easier to see to the naked eye than the elephants, bison, monkeys etc that have been noted here and elsewhere. I think the slow erosion of the horseshoe court reliefs is a prime example of once prominent features that were there in the 80s but disappeared to erosion, etc.
Anything’s possible but I absolutely believe that’s a purposeful representation of a bird. It’s one of the few disruptions in patterns in the dragon visable in every version of the book, scans and even freeze frames of expedition unknown! Of all the thing people have seen in this image this feels like the least abstract of them all.
I tend to agree. JJP did things for a reason. Could it the into the "and Justice for all" verse?
treetops
Well, just don't tell me about that old chain of Golden Gate Park soft pretzel carts with the distinctive logo
gManTexas
treetops wrote::
This is the cross section of a cable car rail, the kind of thing that would be part of any exhibit on cable cars or San Francisco transit:
You all know what I'm seeing here. Please, somebody talk me off of this ledge. Have we been down this road before?
Some more examples:
treetops, not sure what you are seeing or making a connection to here.
WhiteRabbit
...listen...it's a blob...but it's not the blob...back away from the edge...
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Great tip, thanks! I will make some calls tomorrow and see if I can get to the bottom of what is going on.
Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center.
Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Great tip, thanks! I will make some calls tomorrow and see if I can get to the bottom of what is going on.
Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the
senior
center.
Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/
gManTexas
I listened to a podcast on Outsidelands.org about the Portals of the Past. After a long intro, they got into it. It was an interesting listen, and they mentioned that the historic photo of the Portal was something almost everyone in San Francisco had on the walls growing up.
hxxp://www.outsidelands.org/podcast/WNP131_Portals_Past
Another interesting thing that jumped right out at me, is that during the conversation, they mentioned the robber barons of Nob Hill. The podcast was done in 2015 and this still seems to be part of the local lexicon. If we look at the Field Guide in the Secret, in the Philharmonic Orc section, robber barons are mentioned. In fact, I believe the entire entry is about SF. Specifically, the Masonic Center Auditorium, which sits on the same site as the old Alban Towne Mansion.
The Philharmonic Orc section also mentions: the nouveau riche of the main line (trains), wild frontier, and Barbary Coast. The Barbary Coast could be the historical reference to northern Africa, but it more likely a reference to San Francisco.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_C ... _Francisco
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the
senior
center.
Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/
Never mind, I freed up some time to call this afternoon. I'm the freak about the
senior
center, I should finish strong.
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
Argh! I'm on the road today and won't be able to call the senior center.
Could someone please contact them and ask where they are digging? The info is here:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/golden ... or-center/
Never mind, I freed up some time to call this afternoon. I'm the freak about the senior center, I should finish strong.
treetops
Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.
treetops
Note on the
senior
center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
Note on the
senior
center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.
Wonderful! Thank you for the update
drunknerds
treetops wrote::
Note on the senior center door yesterday said the work was on the driveway and would commence March 2 or 4 (yes, last week). Didn't see anything chewed up except the turf where the backhoe and a smaller vehicle are.
Wonderful! Thank you for the update
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Wonderful! Thank you for the update
I say you make your best guess and see if they will dig you a hole!
drunknerds
The Innocents' Abroad, by Twain, contains this line:
no other object can chain your whole attention.
Referring to the Milan Cathedral
Now, we already knew that ten years ago. Here's the thing I found which I think may be new(at least it seems to be according to the search bar)
DeYoung Museum has an etching of the Milan Cathedral.
https://art.famsf.org/ladislaus-rupp/il ... 9633034185
Got to commute, but then I'll hit up that department and see if they know if it was on display in 1980
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
The Innocents' Abroad, by Twain, contains this line:
no other object can chain your whole attention.
Referring to the Milan Cathedral
Now, we already knew that ten years ago. Here's the thing I found which I think may be new(at least it seems to be according to the search bar)
DeYoung Museum has an etching of the Milan Cathedral.
https://art.famsf.org/ladislaus-rupp/il ... 9633034185
Got to commute, but then I'll hit up that department and see if they know if it was on display in 1980
I doubt it the deyoung was an asian art and textile museum that was their big thing..
regular art was few and far betweeen
drunknerds
Well, I quit then
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Well, I quit then
You just need to see what is in front of you and step through the door!
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Well, I quit then
If I had a nickel for every time I said this about the secret...
Well I would at least have a buck 80
treetops
drunknerds wrote::
Well, I quit then
Unknown:
It was at that table d'hôte, too, that I had under inspection the largest lady I have ever seen in private life. She was over seven feet high, and magnificently proportioned. What had first called my attention to her, was my stepping on an outlying flange of her foot, and hearing, from up toward the ceiling, a deep “Pardon, m'sieu, but you encroach!”
That was when we were coming through the hall, and the place was dim, and I could see her only vaguely. The thing which called my attention to her the second time was, that at a table beyond ours were two very pretty girls, and this great lady came in and sat down between them and me and blotted out my view. She had a handsome face, and she was very finely formed—perfectly formed, I should say. But she made everybody around her look trivial and commonplace. Ladies near her looked like children, and the men about her looked mean. They looked like failures; and they looked as if they felt so, too. She sat with her back to us. I never saw such a back in my life. I would have so liked to see the moon rise over it. The whole congregation waited, under one pretext or another, till she finished her dinner and went out; they wanted to see her at full altitude, and they found it worth tarrying for. She filled one's idea of what an empress ought to be, when she rose up in her unapproachable grandeur and moved superbly out of that place.
-from
A Tramp Abroad
You can still ask the museum if there used to be a seven-foot-tall woman in residence:
anus905
gManTexas wrote::
When I was looking at map overlays, I searched for a match for the rose since it is highlighted in bright blue. I found that it matches Twin Peaks very nicely. I figured this was to get us in the neighborhood. After considering the Portals of the Past, it has an even stronger connection. If you look at the previous location of Alban Towne's Mansion on 1101 California Street and where City Hall sits, then picture looking through the portal at City Hall, directly in line with the two is Twin Peaks in the distance.
I did a map overlay to show the rose outline on Twin Peaks. In four steps.
im not sure whether the rose matches the subdivision, but thats the first time i realized there's a 6 in the rose lol. so thanks for that. also twin peaks is DEF part of the puzzle...literally everything is part of the puzzle...its massive. a better question would be what isnt a part of the puzzle lol. and of course...how does everything connect together...which i have nearly completely explained now.
MrBackstop
I want to throw this out there for fun. I had always kinda seen the Reagan Head over the rose to be Reagan and then someone pointed out it looked like Lincoln. Now that I really look close it definitely looks like Lincoln but there is what appears to be a Fish Head in front of the Lincoln profile.
This could indicate that the image is referring to Lincoln Blvd to the West in the Presidio and Fisherman's Wharf to the East.
Any thoughts on this? My solve is in the SF Maritime National Park and it is located between these two spots. And yes I know other things are too but curious if anyone has noticed this fish head.
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
I want to throw this out there for fun. I had always kinda seen the Reagan Head over the rose to be Reagan and then someone pointed out it looked like Lincoln. Now that I really look close it definitely looks like Lincoln but there is what appears to be a Fish Head in front of the Lincoln profile.
This could indicate that the image is referring to Lincoln Blvd to the West in the Presidio and Fisherman's Wharf to the East.
Any thoughts on this? My solve is in the SF Maritime National Park and it is located between these two spots. And yes I know other things are too but curious if anyone has noticed this fish head.
I do not see a fish head, but I do not see lots of things that other people are seeing. so that I don't see it doesn't mean its not there.
I am curious why of all the things he could pick to represent fisherman's wharf... he would choose a fish head as a symbol, - was there a sign with a fish head?
Goonie68
SF searchers,
Anyone have information or knowledge of the tunnel and cement fixtures on the overpass (JFK) between 10th and 9th ave. When it was built, can't seem to find anything on this.
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
SF searchers,
Anyone have information or knowledge of the tunnel and cement fixtures on the overpass (JFK) between 10th and 9th ave. When it was built, can't seem to find anything on this.
hxxp://www.sanfranciscodays.com/golden- ... jfk-tunnel
drunknerds
Same source says the senior center didn’t come around until 1980
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
Same source says the senior center didn’t come around until 1980
Hey Drunknerds, thanks for the link!! I have a AAA map from 1978 that has the it marked as the Senior Center, maybe officially it was 1980?
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
Hey Drunknerds, thanks for the link!! I have a AAA map from 1978 that has the it marked as the Senior Center, maybe officially it was 1980?
Interesting. I found two documents that said 1980, but if the 1978 map says it then... there it is.
What is needed is if there was anything indicating it was a police academy near the center, and whether the barred gate was still in front of the door.
MrBackstop
maltedfalcon wrote::
I do not see a fish head, but I do not see lots of things that other people are seeing. so that I don't see it doesn't mean its not there.
I am curious why of all the things he could pick to represent fisherman's wharf... he would choose a fish head as a symbol, - was there a sign with a fish head?
No, I didn't see a sign with a fish head but then again I didn't see a sign with Lincoln's head either. I just think it is a waymarker of Lincoln Blvd and Fisherman's Wharf. Bit of course the Lincoln could represent the Lincoln around GG Park. So that would leave a questions as to what does the fish head represent?
Goonie68
So.....Today at the Senior Center.......
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40888879121/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40181116194/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39079217570/in/dateposted-public/
Looks like you can rule out a giant step from the pole, way to many pipes in all direction behind and most likely in front of the pole.
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
So.....Today at the Senior Center.......
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40888879121/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40181116194/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39079217570/in/dateposted-public/
Looks like you can rule out a giant step from the pole, way to many pipes in all direction behind and most likely in front of the pole.
Thanks for taking these photos. Did you ask the workers if they found a weird box, lol?
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
So.....Today at the Senior Center.......
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40888879121/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40181116194/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/39079217570/in/dateposted-public/
Looks like you can rule out a giant step from the pole, way to many pipes in all direction behind and most likely in front of the pole.
Incredible work, thank you. Whoever solves SF, YOU deserve top mention.
However, I have to ask: Why did you say “looks like you can rule out a giant step from the pole,” when all of your pictures show the entire East side, my solve, completely intact?
Edit : oh, and by my solve, I mean “ that one thing I came up with after goonie and malted did 99% Of the solve”
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Incredible work, thank you. Whoever solves SF, YOU deserve top mention.
However, I have to ask: Why did you say “looks like you can rule out a giant step from the pole,” when all of your pictures show the entire East side, my solve, completely intact?
Edit : oh, and by my solve, I mean “ that one thing I came up with after goonie and malted did 99% Of the solve”
Eh-hemm...
Goonie68
From what I could tell there are water lines that run towards the flag pole from the water main in the cage.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/138281177@N05/40890880141/in/dateposted-public/
erexere
From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon.
I noticed the moon can be considered similar to the yin-yang symbol. It's perpetually light on one side and dark on the other. Perhaps it's the 11 moons in the sky that has me gravitating to this idea.
The other thing I noticed is the yin-yang symbol also looks like a 6-9. Interestingly, "pure" silver is stamped with a "999". If you flip that, you have 666, giving this a "number of the beast" vibe. I've mentioned this before, wondering if Diablo Point is a place of any consideration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B_Osma_117v.jpg
Goonie68
erexere wrote::
From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon.
I noticed the moon can be considered similar to the yin-yang symbol. It's perpetually light on one side and dark on the other. Perhaps it's the 11 moons in the sky that has me gravitating to this idea.
The other thing I noticed is the yin-yang symbol also looks like a 6-9. Interestingly, "pure" silver is stamped with a "999". If you flip that, you have 666, giving this a "number of the beast" vibe. I've mentioned this before, wondering if Diablo Point is a place of any consideration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B_Osma_117v.jpg
The research I have done suggests that the 11 moons are associated to the Apollo space missions. Apollo 11 was the mission that landed a man on the moon "Giant step" JFK was president that backed the missions and made it possible for the Apollo program to be created. This ties in JFK to the puzzle (face in the rocks) and reconfirms that the Road in the park JFK is significant to the puzzle. IMO.
drunknerds
Why would you need an abstract series of connections to tie in JFK, when his face is right there in the picture?
This whole "x is associated with y which is associated with z, therefore z is relevant to the solve" has not been a viable method for any puzzle I've ever made, solved, or even heard of, plus it wasn't in the two known solutions. So this whole free association trend, which is a quite popular method for Secret hunters, baffles me.
As always, I'd love to be wrong.
anus905
if there are 11 moons...what are the other two things??? UFOS? been pondering this and im not really sure...
anus905
oh shit! i just figured it out lmao!!!!!!!
anus905
that actually didnt take too much pondering haha.
anus905
the other two are Venus, but this is a symbolic representation for something else and major clue going forward into rest of the puzzles. so. fucking. epic. that would make Homer jizz in his pants a little.
anus905
see, this is why you guys need to stop talking shit and listen to me. that took me like 2 minutes!
anus905
f**k ken burns. preiss is america's greatest historian!
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
Why would you need an abstract series of connections to tie in JFK, when his face is right there in the picture?
This whole "x is associated with y which is associated with z, therefore z is relevant to the solve" has not been a viable method for any puzzle I've ever made, solved, or even heard of, plus it wasn't in the two known solutions. So this whole free association trend, which is a quite popular method for Secret hunters, baffles me.
As always, I'd love to be wrong.
Because people cant agree on what face it is, Ronald Regan? Fred Flinston? Lincoln? So this is the reason why it would be important to tie it in, so that it's no mistake that you are looking at JFK.
gManTexas
anus905 wrote::
f**k ken burns. preiss is america's greatest historian!
Do you always hold conversations with yourself?
Wicket
I have not worked on SF but I read how there may be a Shakespeare connection. I am a huge fan/student of his works. There is a website,
hxxp://www.shakespeareswords.com/Search.aspx
that has catalogued all of the words in his plays, sonnets, etc. I plugged in the word ROSE and came up with a few hits in plays like Romeo and Juliet, obviously. One of his poems is Passionate Pilgrim. This reminded me of the Pill Grim character in the book, and she hates passion. The word ROSE is used in Passionate Pilgrim X. Here is the text:
X
Sweet rose, fair flower, untimely plucked, soon vaded,
Plucked in the bud, and vaded in the spring;
BRIGHT ORIENT PEARL, alack, too timely shaded,
Fair creature, killed too soon by death's sharp sting;
Like a green plum that hangs upon a tree,
And falls through wind before the fall should be.
The notes on word meaning says that ORIENT means lustrous, brilliant, bright
I had seen Shakespeare connections in other verses but everyone insisted that this wasn't so. But here it is, as improbable as it may seem. You can look it up for yourself. So the X could be related to the Shakespeare memorial. Maybe this is just a confirmation of the connection or the verse X could give clues.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
But here it is, as improbable as it may seem.
Given how prolific Shakespeare was, it would be improbable only if you couldn't make a connection.
In many ways, it's like Mark Twain and the mysterious object of his attention. Nobody knows what that is. And until the casque is dug up in SF, nobody can know what that is. Seemingly, that's the way the puzzle works. Which makes random association just about the worst way to try and solve it.
BINGO
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Seemingly, that's the way the puzzle works. Which makes random association just about the worst way to try and solve it.
Best thing I have read in a while.
Trohn
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Given how prolific Shakespeare was, it would be improbable only if you couldn't make a connection.
In many ways, it's like Mark Twain and the mysterious object of his attention. Nobody knows what that is. And until the casque is dug up in SF, nobody can know what that is. Seemingly, that's the way the puzzle works. Which makes random association just about the worst way to try and solve it.
Its not the object of Mark Twain's attention.
Its the object of Twain's attention.. huge difference and discrepancy.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Its not the object of Mark Twain's attention.
Read what I wrote again Trohn. And thank you for making my point.
Mister EZ
Trohn wrote::
Its not the object of Mark Twain's attention.
Its the object of Shania Twain's attention.. huge difference and discrepancy.
Happy belated April 1.
=]
drunknerds
Mister EZ wrote::
Happy belated April 1.
=]
[Drunk Nerds pulls out his Big List of Twain's Attention possibilities, crosses out "Brad Pitt"]
Also I totally agree about the intentional omission of Mark, there. That's why the only answer I really like is Marx meadow. It doesn't rely on history, it is simply wordplay. Preiss didn't say "hey here's this local musician from chicago, and also here's this famous artist," he simply referred to the art and the music buildings as "brush and music." Dude liked wordplay, not history.
Wicket
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Given how prolific Shakespeare was, it would be improbable only if you couldn't make a connection.
In many ways, it's like Mark Twain and the mysterious object of his attention. Nobody knows what that is. And until the casque is dug up in SF, nobody can know what that is. Seemingly, that's the way the puzzle works. Which makes random association just about the worst way to try and solve it.
The word ROSE in Shakespeare only occurs 75 times. The first folio itself is over 900 pages. Folio size pages are very large! They measure 12" x 18". That is a lot of words. I simply took the ideas in this forum that shakespeare was involved and that the rose could also be a reference to that. The Pill Grim is in The Secret. IDK. Bright Orient Pearl in Passionate Pilgrim verse X. And the lady in the painting is wearing a glowing pearl necklace. To me that isn't a stretch. I shouldn't have said improbable. I was heading off exactly what you said anyhow. That i make to many leaps to make something fit. I simply plugged in the word and there it was.
i think what I do for a living affects how I put things together.
anus905
perhaps not shakespeare...(though shakespeare def tells you something)...but definitely ole burnsey...
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... d-red-rose
anus905
this tells us roses spring in june, hence why we do the puzzle in june. clever. clever.
Trohn
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Read what I wrote again Trohn. And thank you for making my point.
No prob. Happy to help.
erexere
Shakespeare, or Robert Burns DO NOT tell us anything about the puzzle if there is no connection. First show how the verse has a strong or exact quote or some strong visual detail relates one of these poets. Any logic without grounds to support is foolish.
Using the LotJ, I've taken hold of an idea based on some word choices. It's not convincingly relatable, but at least it's a basis for wondering how the words "chaste" and "pure as the silver" are
supportive to some conclusion
. It's important to realize at the same time how absurd it would be to draw your conclusions from any outside source material, this includes the LotJ, Vanishing, Field Guide, etc. The point of looking for some shred of relatable information is not to draw a conclusion, but to add support to what already essentially fits the verse and image.
In Chicago, "cold morning green" was not necessary to the conclusions leading to a corner of Grant Park. It's merelybinteresting and fun to think with green = money, and morning low temps in May = 50 degrees is one way a person can accept there is some significance to looking in Grant Park. The same kind of whimsical logic seems to apply to Melville in Houston or Sarmiento in NOLA. We're looking at mere shreds for relevance. There isn't always a clear sense of culturally specific context, thus our navigation should be very tentative.
I wouldn't be convinced the 11 moons are an Apollo 11 connection, but maybe there's something valuable in it. There certainly are a lot of moons...I wonder if we should count the pearl, for a total of 12.
davinci4
Hello all. Didn’t want to interrupt the thread but thought I would share this information for those still considering Lafayette Park. According to the Victorian Alliance of SF, the drinking fountain is still located along the path near the center of the park between the playground and the restrooms. The online photo is looking roughly south. Hope that could be helpful as a possible site confirmer.
Goonie68
erexere wrote::
Shakespeare, or Robert Burns DO NOT tell us anything about the puzzle if there is no connection. First show how the verse has a strong or exact quote or some strong visual detail relates one of these poets. Any logic without grounds to support is foolish.
Using the LotJ, I've taken hold of an idea based on some word choices. It's not convincingly relatable, but at least it's a basis for wondering how the words "chaste" and "pure as the silver" are
supportive to some conclusion
. It's important to realize at the same time how absurd it would be to draw your conclusions from any outside source material, this includes the LotJ, Vanishing, Field Guide, etc. The point of looking for some shred of relatable information is not to draw a conclusion, but to add support to what already essentially fits the verse and image.
In Chicago, "cold morning green" was not necessary to the conclusions leading to a corner of Grant Park. It's merelybinteresting and fun to think with green = money, and morning low temps in May = 50 degrees is one way a person can accept there is some significance to looking in Grant Park. The same kind of whimsical logic seems to apply to Melville in Houston or Sarmiento in NOLA. We're looking at mere shreds for relevance. There isn't always a clear sense of culturally specific context, thus our navigation should be very tentative.
I wouldn't be convinced the 11 moons are an Apollo 11 connection, but maybe there's something valuable in it. There certainly are a lot of moons...I wonder if we should count the pearl, for a total of 12.
I would have to disagree with you here, Field guide , Corporate Giant mentions Karl Marx, in GGP is Marx meadow, it can't be any clearer that the two are spelled the same MARX, which absolutely points you to that direction. It is not a fluke that the two are spelled the same. What are the odds? As for Apollo 11 (IMO) it's just a theory and has a solid connection to JFK, that's all. I haven't heard a better interpretation for the 11 moons other then MAYBE the represents balls around the park? OR the moon bridge, which has nothing to do with the puzzle ( unless you are digging there) But why 11 so specific.
Wicket
anus905 wrote::
perhaps not shakespeare...(though shakespeare def tells you something)...but definitely ole burnsey...
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/ ... d-red-rose
Yes, I found a reference to Burns in another puzzle. Not that this relates to this puzzle, but maybe another, Burns was a Mason.
erexere
Goonies68,
I understand. I might've said it poorly, the verse and image are the most direct means to draw a conclusion. The field guide, LotJ and other parts of the book maybe supportive, just not the primary source material for the specific puzzle.
Seeing solid evidence in secondary sources is problematic. Understanding the basis of something in a supportive context is to treat something lightly. Always be careful when forming ideas that might only be a personal perspective as opposed to a solid move on Preiss part.
I hesitate to say the LotJ is a foundation of solid moves. It's very light supportive material, if at all, since you're dealing with such a huge limitation of word definition, or idiom.
Chaste and pure silver = Adam and Eve or silver's purity of 999, suggesting some special significance to the Dragon puzzle? Very loose idea. One might wonder ofnthe alchemical symbols or the "Hg" could be a metallic hint.
Cold morning green = Ulysses S .Grant on a 50 dollar bill in the Celtic puzzle? also loose.l, but when You Take time to identify or compare his facial features with the painting you have a narrower field of supporting evidence.
Goonie68
[quote="erexere"]Goonies68,
I understand. I might've said it poorly, the verse and image are the most direct means to draw a conclusion. The field guide, LotJ and other parts of the book maybe supportive, just not the primary source material for the specific puzzle.
I agree with this 100%. The key is supportive, IMO I do believe the field guide does this. The guide doesn't tell you how to get to the path you take nor does it give you a image to confirm, what it does do is support certain words to help you along a path. The puzzle will be solved with verse and image. possibly a little help from the field guide.
anus905
as someone who has actually solved the puzzle, i can say with 100 % certainty, that both Shakespeare and Burns are very much part of the puzzle.
Thecollector420
The theme for the painting is china. Ggp has a Chinese pavillion that was built in 81. It's also called a moon viewing pavillion
Very simple to put the two together. This pavillion is also what I believe is Twains attention when it comes to this puzzle. I realizes anything can be Twains attention but looking at the Chinese theme, 11 moons in my opinion it can only be one thing.
Goonie68
Thecollector420 wrote::
The theme for the painting is china. Ggp has a Chinese pavillion that was built in 81. It's also called a moon viewing pavillion
Very simple to put the two together. This pavillion is also what I believe is Twains attention when it comes to this puzzle. I realizes anything can be Twains attention but looking at the Chinese theme, 11 moons in my opinion it can only be one thing.
Why 11? 1 moon would be sufficient to tie the Pavilion in.
anus905
or, more particularly, what does that have to do with Twain?
anus905
you guys should really ask mf the answer to the twain clue...he saw the whole explanation...
Thecollector420
The 11 moons could represent apollo 11. One small step for man, one GIANT leap for mankind.
erexere
If you have an awesome clue then show evidence that supports it, otherwise you may be putting much weight on an auxiliary angle.
Thecollector420
I think the moons tell you what the giant step is.i think the giant pole is the goddess of the forest. You would move in the direction of the pavilion 11 steps. 27.5 feet. That's where I believe the casque is kept
Goonie68
anus905 wrote::
you guys should really ask mf the answer to the twain clue...he saw the whole explanation...
Why ask MF when you are the source.......? Please tell how it all ties together.
WhiteRabbit
Goonie68 wrote::
Why ask MF when you are the source.......? Please tell how it all ties together.
It's like the Ark of the Covenant Goonie. If you tried to gaze on the original source you'd be driven mad or blinded.
anus905
what happened to mf anyways, he said he was digging up the casque yesterday (outside of GGP)...
Goonie68
WhiteRabbit wrote::
It's like the Ark of the Covenant Goonie. If you tried to gaze on the original source you'd be driven mad or blinded.
maltedfalcon
Oh well I had a dig today but came up empty.
LOL Josh you should have bet me....
Still a very fun day,
erexere
Seem the puzzle difficulty level has increased.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
Oh well I had a dig today but came up empty.
LOL Josh you should have bet me....
Still a very fun day,
From your wager offer, I was convinced that you had it locked down.
Best of luck on the next dig.
anus905
where did you dig?
MrBackstop
The Secret II by "Anus"
erexere
Delving into some bible verse today, I found chapter 11 section 7 is the first mention of the beast, technically it's not the Dragon which comes later. Anyway, it's a gnarly idea.
Collectively we might use the Adam's Apple placement of the pearl and Twain's parody of Adam and Eve to support a focus on the three Adam's sculpture, the Shades, by Rodin in SF.
The Gates of Hell (a giant door):
A 1995 article clarifies that the Adams-Shades sculpture was moved indoors as part of their renovations.
hxxp://articles.latimes.com/1995-11-12/ ... t-museum/3
Hirudiniforme
maltedfalcon wrote::
I had a dig today but came up empty.
... You don't say?
drunknerds
125 times in one hour is a pretty good typing speed, on the plus side
anus905
im the one who deleted the post and i did not post 125 times in an hour. i was in convo with people telling them the twain clue answer...if y read that post, you should know...
erexere
Can someone in SF help verify a candidate match for this feature? These lamps aren't unique, but I haven't managed to get a sharp picture yet to be absolutely sure it's not.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Oh well I had a dig today but came up empty.
Meanwhile, this. But by all means, keep ranting about Josh, because, you know...
anus905
i dont know why you keep saying it was deleted by an admin when i deleted it myself. you can keep saying it but its going to be untrue every single time...get a life loser.
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
Can someone in SF help verify a candidate match for this feature? These lamps aren't unique, but I haven't managed to get a sharp picture yet to be absolutely sure it's not.
the answer is no - the lamps were installed in 1984.
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
BTW, I enjoy the SA forum
I really like it. It's about 50% quick-thinking people making genuine efforts, 25 % people who are genuinely concerned for the mental well-being of the aforementioned 50%, and 25% people who say, "I found the treasure. It was between 3-3.5 feet up my butt"
MrBackstop
Have to agree with the cable car bell.
Not only is the bell a dead ringer for the Cable Car bell, I also believe the table that the clock is sitting on is the "turn table" that they use to turn the Cable Cars around and send them back in the other direction.
anus905
MrSeabass wrote::
I don't understand the obsession of linking the bell to the cable car. We know it in San Francisco already; linking it to a cable car does nothing. May as well find references to BART or Emperor Norton in the image.
I have 100% confirmation. its telling you you have to ride the cable car from one point in the puzzle to another.
Goonie68
I have 100% confirmation. its telling
you you
have to ride the cable car from one point in the puzzle to another.[/quote]
image upload html
It's the You You
Crazy Train!!!!!
Wicket
Goldengate wrote::
"We" know it's in San Francisco via the collective effort of the forum over more than a decade -- but in 1982, solving the puzzles was a pretty solitary effort. As with the Chicago Water Tower and the Cleveland tower, each image has multiple clues that tie it to a city -- meant to be somewhat recognizable to locals and out-of-towners alike . I think referencing a cable car is just one of those things, that's all. In 1982, tying a cable car to San Francisco would be more accessible to more people than the outline of GGP or any of the other perceived clues (except for the lat and long, which are dead on).
I can only speak for myself, but I think the cable car is meant to be a general visual starting point setting this image in San Francisco and then the hunters can narrow down clues like GGP, Twain connections, poles, steps, etc from there.
I think that is a good point. I owned a trolley car building for 20 years in Baltimore. The SF cars are unique.
Wicket
The bump on the lady's wrist is the head of the ulna, which has a semilunar form. The ulna is the smaller of the forearm bones. It starts at the elbow and ends at the little finger. Ulna is an anagram of Luna and elbow is an anagram of below, for those not opposed to anagrams.
Luna is Italian for moon. Derivatives are lunar, lunatic. Moon means month. The alchemical word for silver is moon. The periodic table value is AG, 47 for silver.
The way the lady's hands are positioned, one on top is lead by the ulna. If you lifted your elbow first, you would make a pouring action. The under hand is a lifting motion. I have no idea if the forum has posted pictures of statues that have pouring and lifting figures. Maybe they could be in one statue.
I did a search for all of this information and didn't really find anything. Hoping not to repeat info put out already.
drunknerds
MrSeabass wrote::
I don't understand the obsession of linking the bell to the cable car. We know it in San Francisco already; linking it to a cable car does nothing. May as well find references to BART or Emperor Norton in the image.
Why Preiss juxtaposes obvious city indicators with more subtle ones, and why he felt the need for 5+ city indicators and like 0 dig site indicators, always baffled me. The only explanation is that it's a good sales tactic: Get people super excited thar they found a clue without actually revealong anything new is a great way to sell books without risking a solve drying up the consumerism
drunknerds
MrSeabass wrote::
Don't ever reply to me.
Don't forget, if you add someone to your foes list, you won't see their posts or replies. Just other people quoting them.
Unless the forum goes down and needs to be reset, then you have to redo your foes list. But when has the forum EVER DONE THAT
drunknerds
Triple Post! I'm a giant step from feeling at home plate!
Can someone please link to the SF facebook. I am supwr old and dumb and thus cannot find it through searching
drunknerds
Goldengate wrote::
Here you go, grandpa:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1285391081604941/
Thank you!
treetops
MrSeabass wrote::
I don't understand the obsession of linking the bell to the cable car. We know it in San Francisco already; linking it to a cable car does nothing. May as well find references to BART or Emperor Norton in the image.
Linking to a cable car might not get you anywhere in particular, but linking to a cable car turnaround (indicated by the table top) would get you to one of three locations: Powell & Market, Aquatic Park or Bay & Taylor. Isn't there a popular theory about Cleveland and Chicago establishing a pattern of a single street leading from a prominent local landmark (water tower, terminal tower) to the location where the verse takes over? Using one of the turnarounds this way requires accepting the landmark-street-verse theory, which I'm not 100% persuaded by, but we are really lacking something to bridge the gap between cities and local hunting grounds, especially with clues as omnipresent as walls, steps, poles, orbs and spirals.
Goonie68
My 2 cents on the bell....
The "clock" is a alarm clock this is why it has a bell on the top of it. It's pretty clear that this is a old fashion alarm clock. The reason why I think this is in the illustration is that it is telling you a time. Alarm clocks are meant for a specific time for one to wake up or to be aware of time. In the past(1980) before we were a 24/7 society we used this type of clock to wake up early. I believe the clock is telling us (by the alarm) to be somewhere early. We have the number 6 on the clock. Month of June. The alarm tells us early, now we are looking at early June. This falls with being in the park in early June to witness all the gardens in full bloom. Hence the "air smells sweet" or the rose in the illustration. Flowers don't bloom during winter. BP wanted us to be in the parks in spring and summer. This is why he said that he thought the casques would be found with in 6 months. You would not be looking for a casque in winter under 10 feet of snow.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Using one of the turnarounds this way requires accepting the landmark-street-verse theory,
I think it's the landmark-street-park theory, but Maltedfalcon is the one to ask. He's the originator and biggest fan as far as I know. Alternatively, one can search some of his earlier posts to see how it originated and developed over time. While tedious, it is still the best way to understand certain time-honored aspects of this puzzle.
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
...10 feet of snow. In
San Francisco
.
Ok NOT SF I guess you don't get my point.
WhiteRabbit
erexere wrote::
I am back to thinking the Dewey monument is our Giant Pole
Old post, but are you still looking at Union Square...? I was just wondering about the bell idea and came across the annual cable car bell ringing contest that takes place there...(you probably saw that already).
hxxp://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/ccsfbell.html
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I guess you don't get my point.
I'm not sure I get the point either, but my opinion is that with regard to the six casques south of the Mason Dixon Line, all of them could have been retrieved day or night, 365 days a year, especially if you had permission. The dig spot is not dependent on seasons, shadows, or phases of the moon. I think this is also true of the casques north of the Mason Dixon Line, as long as you understand that digging in Milwaukee or Montreal in February, while not impossible, is not nearly as pleasant as digging there in June. But that's just common sense.
Goonie68
...10 feet of snow. In
San Francisco
.[/quote]
Ok NOT SF I guess you don't get my point.[/quote]
Seeing as there's other clocks in the images that point to different times of day, your theory holds no water.[/quote]
Ok so let's take Boston in winter, will you be able to dig out a casque?
maltedfalcon
Goldengate wrote::
Not sure I'd chase Union Square for a number of reasons -- namely, it's mega public -- as in one of the most publicly open and busy places in San Francisco -- and it's been extensively renovated and dug up multiple times since the 80s.
It has been entirely replaced, the building underneath ( a parking structure) was completely torn out and rebuit union square is actually the roof of a new parking structure.
there is no (zero) dirt/trees/grass that is original there.
Goonie68
...10 feet of snow. In
San Francisco
.[/quote]
Ok NOT SF I guess you don't get my point.[/quote]
Seeing as there's other clocks in the images that point to different times of day, your theory holds no water.[/quote]
I would love to hear your theory way being in SF during peak of the blooming process holds no water, with a ROSE as a focal point in the illustration? Or your theory about the bell? IF you think I am so off.....
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
You can in New Orleans, Charleston, Roanoke, San Francisco, St. Augustine, and Houston. And again, other images has a clock pointed at totally different times - NYC has a clock at 11:00. Which invalidates any credibility with your '6:00 means dig in June' theory.
Well, as far as I can see those puzzle DO not have a flower as a focal point to the puzzle, so the flower is a key in SF, or would you not agree?
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
Yayyyyy it's the "you can't criticize my theory without telling me your own" game, I
love
playing this...
Now it's a game? I am totally fine with criticism, but back it up, explain your point, and not just say it hold no water......
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
Scroll up and read. Multiple clocks in the images. Multiple times represented. Multiple cities that rarely ever see snow.
Ok so maybe this got away from what I was trying to say. The Rose in SF is very focal. I am using this as a identifying image support. Roses are in bloom during June. That is a Fact, so using the time, it will give an actual flower to look at instead of a reference. As far as other puzzles clocks and what ever else has nothing to do with SF, my bad if it sounded like all puzzle had to be of the same criteria.
erexere
O think the spiral stem on the rose is its most significant feature, matching some stone facade or ironwork.
treetops
I think the larger principle here might be that the birthstones, birth flowers and month indicators (clock times included) are all part of an overarching organizational scheme (an image for each of the 12 months of the year), but do not do double duty as clues to the individual treasures. This scheme could be part of a yet to be determined key to image/verse pairing, or some other "grand puzzle", or it could be an unrelated diversion, perhaps a more user friendly puzzle to mask the comparative inscrutability of everything else. I think anyone making a case for the flowers, gemstones (including position in the image) or numbers being clues to casque locations should try to show how these elements pertain to Chicago or Cleveland. Do the warts on the Chicago face relate to points on a map, positions of monuments, number of steps to take, anything? Was March the optimal time to do the Cleveland dig?
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
They have been blooming since
March
, and they bloom multiple times throughout the year all they way to fall months.
Well, I have been in the Park from January to a couple weeks ago and the roses are not in bloom. The park cuts the vines, which they start to bloom in May typically. If the vines are not cut they will start to bloom in early march.
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
So the roses bloom in March and not June. Thanks for proving my point.
Just stop with this theory and move on to something else more grounded.
Stop? you don't have to chime in if you don't want to...
Did you not read what I said....I was there a couple of weeks ago and nothing is in bloom....how is that proving your point? So at this point we can agree to disagree and I am fine with that. But thanks for your opinion. You have something more grounded cool, like to share ?
MrBackstop
MrSeabass wrote::
You're missing my point - if we already know it's in San Francisco, how does tying
anything
to the cable car help at all? Unless someone can make an argument that it's buried in a park along a cable car path (Union, Hampton, Wharf), then we're wasting time on circular logic.
The Cable Car, the Turntable and the Bell all help because I believe the casque is buried at the Powell & Hyde Turnaround. The 6 on the clock tells you that the dig spot is just below the wall and above the sidewalk underneath the actual turntable. The image of the golden pearl on the lady's neck shows the approximate area for where the casque is buried in the landscape area. Her chin is the circular platform of the turnaround and her collar is the sidewalk going around the turntable.
That's why the Cable Car and other references are more important than simply being a waymarker.
anus905
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Old post, but are you still looking at Union Square...? I was just wondering about the bell idea and came across the annual cable car bell ringing contest that takes place there...(you probably saw that already).
hxxp://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/ccsfbell.html
I'm actually currently writing about this monument, its not the pole, but its in the puzzle.
anus905
I was in sf up till mar 4th and the roses were not even close to blooming, so they will not bloom until at least may.
anus905
the rose, clock and spiral stem together relate to Vertigo.
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
The Cable Car, the Turntable and the Bell all help because I believe the casque is buried at the Powell & Hyde Turnaround. The 6 on the clock tells you that the dig spot is just below the wall and above the sidewalk underneath the actual turntable. The image of the golden pearl on the lady's neck shows the approximate area for where the casque is buried in the landscape area. Her chin is the circular platform of the turnaround and her collar is the sidewalk going around the turntable.
That's why the Cable Car and other references are more important than simply being a waymarker.
The Powell & Hyde turnaround, on Powell and Beach? Wasn't that was built between 1982 and 1984?
when I was in High School, the turnaround was actually out in the intersection of beach and powell. they moved it off to the side to lessen the impact on traffic while they loaded people.
Goonie68
MrSeabass wrote::
...
Well, I have been in the Park from January to a couple weeks ago and the roses are not in bloom.
The park cuts the vines
, which they start to bloom in May typically.
If the vines are not
cut they will start to bloom in early march.
would be helpful you if used the quote bottom correctly and not half quotes.
anus905
its not at the turnaround backstop, that's not even a reasonable location lol.
you do ride the cable car though.
WhiteRabbit
treetops wrote::
I think the larger principle here might be that the birthstones, birth flowers and month indicators (clock times included) are all part of an overarching organizational scheme (an image for each of the 12 months of the year), but do not do double duty as clues to the individual treasures. This scheme could be part of a yet to be determined key to image/verse pairing
Unknown:
Preiss was a very good poker player, and was not giving out any hints about any of the other locations. However, he did confirm my theory that the countries of origin of the faeries do connect with the sites.
...yep, the clock times and flowers confirm the gems via the month, and the gems confirm nationalities via the litany, in a definitive way. Image style and elements also tie in with the nationalities. And the nationalities tie in with casque locations, as BP confirmed to Eg.
I don't recall any evidence that the flowers, times, months, zodiac signs, etc., offer any other useful information, beyond their part in the nationalities scheme.
Goonie68
This is the Rose Garden last week.
upload phots
Goonie68
I don't recall any evidence that the flowers, times, months, zodiac signs, etc., offer any other useful information, beyond their part in the nationalities scheme.[/quote]
Why would we need a birthstone and a flower in the image? All we need is one or the other to determine what month we need. To me BP is adding the flowers for a reason.
maltedfalcon
anus905 wrote::
I'm actually currently writing about this monument, its not the pole, but its in the puzzle.
FYI the lady at the top is Alma Spreckles - Wife of the sugar magnate
atdreamer2112
Goldengate wrote::
I'm sure you did, big fella. (Thanks goes out to Goonie for this perfect recreation of your triumphant "discovery" of the SF casque)
OMG Thank you so much for sharing this!!!
Wicket
MrSeabass wrote::
No no no no no. A vague reference to a vague reference to a vague reference to a vague reference to a vague reference to a vague reference to a vague reference is
meaningless
. Don't do that.
Don't tell me what to do Snow White
Ok. The lady has a bump on her wrist. If she is anatomically correct, that would be her ulna bone.
Ok. The painting has moons. The etymology of moon is Luna.
I consider that pretty straight forward. If you all can count squares on her sleeves because her fingers point to it, I can bring up the bump on her wrist. That bump can be related to a very famous painting. Oh yea, that is too vague. Please strike that.
Wicket
erexere wrote::
Chaste and pure silver = Adam and Eve or silver's purity of 999, suggesting some special significance to the Dragon puzzle? Very loose idea. One might wonder ofnthe alchemical symbols or the "Hg" could be a metallic hint
The alchemical symbol for silver is the moon. MrSeabass said that was a vague reference, but I dinna ken
MrBackstop
maltedfalcon wrote::
The Powell & Hyde turnaround, on Powell and Beach? Wasn't that was built between 1982 and 1984?
when I was in High School, the turnaround was actually out in the intersection of beach and powell. they moved it off to the side to lessen the impact on traffic while they loaded people.
Thanks Falcon, this is great info. I just started looking at historical photos and see that the turnaround was right next to and parallel to Beach Street. It was moved to a 45 degree angle in 1982-84. So it doesn't change my solve location but does make me need to adjust the actual digspot. Let me get back to it with this new info.
MrBackstop
Here is a historical photo of the turnaround pre-1980s.
https://sfmta.photoshelter.com/gallery- ... T4YTtxFMnU
treetops
Great resource Backstop. Here's a more recent photo of the same:
https://sfmta.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Fishermans-Wharf/G0000w6C5ku14.ig/I0000uSi_l8oQajc/C0000Lmc9adu9yKU
anus905
theres no way its at the turnaround...
drunknerds
People who are sharing resources and amending theories based on discussion: You are doing good
I don’t understand why there’s an argument about June roses. It is certainly an interesting theory, but if I understand it correctly It doesn’t really affect the solve, all it means is another Shakespeare’s garden confirmation, so if it’s right or if it’s wrong we still know Shakespeare’s garden probably factors in but mayyybe not
drunknerds
I just think both sides are using their differences of opinion to divide them, when they could be using them to foster pleasant debate and analyze the merit of a possible new angle.
MrBackstop
treetops wrote::
Great resource Backstop. Here's a more recent photo of the same:
https://sfmta.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Fishermans-Wharf/G0000w6C5ku14.ig/I0000uSi_l8oQajc/C0000Lmc9adu9yKU
I like that photo. It shows the waiting area around the tabletop that I didn't see before. I'm just real curious as to what the area and landscaping looked like on the other side of that wall where the people are waiting. Good stuff treetops.
davinci4
Hi All. Just thought I would try to revive the Lafayette Park theory in SF. I am not sure how many are still considering it, but thought I would share a few possible image confirmers. Consider the sandy area(s) near the summit, there is the nearby Victorian drinking fountain and the barred window in the Spreckles Mansion. I would also add the ‘orbs’ in the sandy areas could be the moons we are seeing in the painting. The celestial theme may also be a subtle nod to the planetarium that existed there before.
Of course, image confirmers are only as strong as the supporting verses. ‘Octavia/8th’ and ‘tennis court/scene where law defended’ still stands out as one of the best interpretations I have read. Considering also when you extend the arms of Clay/Octavia streets, you are almost exactly on the ‘sand’ at the summit. Hoping the forum will revisit this one.
davinci4
Hi All. Just thought I would try to revive the Lafayette Park theory in SF. I am not sure how many are still considering it, but thought I would share a few possible image confirmers. Consider the sandy area(s) near the summit, there is the nearby Victorian drinking
fountain
and the barred window in the Spreckles Mansion. I would also add the ‘orbs’ in the sandy areas could be the moons we are seeing in the painting. The celestial theme may also be a subtle nod to the planetarium that existed there before.
Of course, image confirmers are only as strong as the supporting verses. ‘Octavia/8th’ and ‘tennis court/scene where law defended’ still stands out as one of the best interpretations I have read. Considering also when you extend the arms of Clay/Octavia streets, you are almost exactly on the ‘sand’ at the summit. Hoping the forum will revisit this one.
gManTexas
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just thought I would try to revive the Lafayette Park theory in SF. I am not sure how many are still considering it, but thought I would share a few possible image confirmers. Consider the sandy area(s) near the summit, there is the nearby Victorian drinking
fountain
and the barred window in the Spreckles Mansion. I would also add the ‘orbs’ in the sandy areas could be the moons we are seeing in the painting. The celestial theme may also be a subtle nod to the planetarium that existed there before.
Of course, image confirmers are only as strong as the supporting verses. ‘Octavia/8th’ and ‘tennis court/scene where law defended’ still stands out as one of the best interpretations I have read. Considering also when you extend the arms of Clay/Octavia streets, you are almost exactly on the ‘sand’ at the summit. Hoping the forum will revisit this one.
I believe that you are suggesting that Verse 6 is paired with Image 1? If so, I think that is a steep hill to climb. I am 97% convinced that Verse 7 goes with Image 1.
gManTexas
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just thought I would try to revive the Lafayette Park theory in SF. I am not sure how many are still considering it, but thought I would share a few possible image confirmers. Consider the sandy area(s) near the summit, there is the nearby Victorian drinking fountain and the barred window in the Spreckles Mansion. I would also add the ‘orbs’ in the sandy areas could be the moons we are seeing in the painting. The celestial theme may also be a subtle nod to the planetarium that existed there before.
Of course, image confirmers are only as strong as the supporting verses. ‘Octavia/8th’ and ‘tennis court/scene where law defended’ still stands out as one of the best interpretations I have read. Considering also when you extend the arms of Clay/Octavia streets, you are almost exactly on the ‘sand’ at the summit. Hoping the forum will revisit this one.
I believe that you are suggesting that Verse 6 is paired with Image 1? If so, I think that is a steep hill to climb. I am 97% convinced that Verse 7 goes with Image 1.
drunknerds
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just thought I would try to revive the Lafayette Park theory in SF. The celestial theme may also be a subtle nod to the planetarium that existed there before.
I think you mean... the moons are a nod to the planetarium in Lafayette, Louisiana? Maybe?
drunknerds
drunknerds wrote::
I think you mean... the moons are a nod to the planetarium in Lafayette, Louisiana? Maybe?
I mean, it's either that you are referencing... or the Morrison Planetarium in San Francisco... In Golden Gate Park.
WhiteRabbit
It was an observatory that existed in SF's Lafayette Park; the first on the West Coast.
https://mtdavidson.org/george-davidson/
I'm completely open-minded about image/verse mappings and locations, but I still think Lafayette Park is perfectly plausible. Here's a recap.
1)
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
RLS links to SF via Treasure Island and the monument (a drinking
fountain
) in Portsmouth Square, Chinatown.
2)
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
There's a well-known photographic portrait of the actor
Edwin Booth with daughter Edwina
, and a plaque referencing Edwin near a plaque for RLS.
Equity
, the actors union, was founded in May 1913 following secret meetings at Edwin Booth's mansion in NY. The phrase "
Fair remuneration
" appears in the
Equity handbook
, though I don't know when it first appeared.
3)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
These lines could be a description of the Lafayette Park tennis courts, which are on Octavia (the
eighth
). It's a "court", a scene where law defended, between "two [with] arms extended". "
Long palm
" is an early form of tennis. There are also actual palms in the park.
4)
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand
The courts are next to an infamous white house which was the subject of a long-running dispute.
https://hoodline.com/2016/06/legendary- ... park-today
5)
Possible image matches include a Victorian drinking
fountain
:
...and the windows of the white house.
A few years ago the park was extensively renovated, and I wrote to a local group to try and get them to take a look. There's an article about it here.
hxxp://newfillmore.com/wp-content/uploa ... 013_06.pdf
WhiteRabbit
It was an observatory that existed in SF's Lafayette Park; the first on the West Coast.
https://mtdavidson.org/george-davidson/
I'm completely open-minded about image/verse mappings and locations, but I still think Lafayette Park is perfectly plausible. Here's a recap.
1)
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
RLS links to SF via Treasure Island and the monument (a drinking fountain) in Portsmouth Square, Chinatown.
2)
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
There's a well-known photographic portrait of the actor
Edwin Booth with daughter Edwina
, and a plaque referencing Edwin near a plaque for RLS.
Equity
, the actors union, was founded in May 1913 following secret meetings at Edwin Booth's mansion in NY. The phrase "
Fair remuneration
" appears in the
Equity handbook
, though I don't know when it first appeared.
3)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
These lines could be a description of the Lafayette Park tennis courts, which are on Octavia (the
eighth
). It's a "court", a scene where law defended, between "two [with] arms extended". "
Long palm
" is an early form of tennis. There are also actual palms in the park.
4)
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand
The courts are next to an infamous white house which was the subject of a long-running dispute.
https://hoodline.com/2016/06/legendary- ... park-today
5)
Possible image matches include a Victorian drinking fountain:
...and the windows of the white house.
A few years ago the park was extensively renovated, and I wrote to a local group to try and get them to take a look. There's an article about it here.
hxxp://newfillmore.com/wp-content/uploa ... 013_06.pdf
WhiteRabbit
Well, given the existence of a relatively famous Edwin and Edwina, it seems unlikely to me that BP would have chosen that obscure line from an obscure book without being aware of them. So whichever one leads to the casque, I'm pretty sure he was aware of both. From there, it's not much of a leap to wonder which he ended up using. I also like the "fair remuneration" tie-in, and I've seen no other explanation for that.
"A scene where law defended" is also a pretty strange way to describe a hanging. The monument at the scene doesn't mention the 8th, and its main subject, Stede Bonnet, wasn't executed until the 10th Dec. It's a bit of a stretch in more ways than one.
anus905
there were lots of crossovers from puzzle to puzzle to make it tougher to marry verses to the city (which is much harder to do than the paintings, for obvious reasons).
anus905
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Well, given the existence of a relatively famous Edwin and Edwina, it seems unlikely to me that BP would have chosen that obscure line from an obscure book without being aware of them. So whichever one leads to the casque, I'm pretty sure he was aware of both. From there, it's not much of a leap to wonder which he ended up using. I also like the "fair remuneration" tie-in, and I've seen no other explanation for that.
"A scene where law defended" is also a pretty strange way to describe a hanging. The monument at the scene doesn't mention the 8th, and its main subject, Stede Bonnet,
wasn't executed until the 10th Dec. It's a bit of a stretch in more ways than one.
"Bonnet’s own men had been hung at White Point two days before his trial and their bodies left dangling from the gallows before the bloated, decaying corpses were cut down and unceremoniously dumped in the marsh just off the point; marshes that would later be filled in for the building of homes." (this spot is marked by a plaque about the building of the battery wall (on s battery wall w of wpg).
furthermore, because the 8th is NOT mentioned directly on the monument itself...we are GIVEN the EIGHTH as a clue earlier in the puzzle via the Harken to the words clue...which takes us to "Harken to the words of a patriot, 1840" (a historical document - pamphlet)...from this we discern that the EIGHTH will come into relevance later (at this point were standing at Hunley Monument...with the Pirate Monument being the next one down to the E).
Wicket
3)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
The foundation of many establishments in SF were ships buried in the sand.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/04/ ... ld-rush-2/
An oar is a Palm. This statue in SF shows a lady holding a "long palm". In the shadow of the Palm is the date 1850. In SF the year 1850 saw "three great fires".
https://1drv.ms/b/s!An5iiS4FlLlEgzEbfiiffjLsNi7v
A historical society was established in 1850. It is a repository of the history of SF where one can look up very old archives.
I have no idea if this helps other than pointing to SF.
Wicket
[quote="Wicket"]3)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
i meant to quote white rabbit on this, sorry
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
"A scene where law defended" is also a pretty strange way to describe a hanging
I 100% and am glad you brought this up.
That said, "A scene where law defended" is also a pretty strange way to describe a tennis court.
At the least, the hanging description requires no metaphors nor wordplay, which makes it a slightly better match than any solution which does ( in my opinion). Also, I feel like Preiss' choice of using "scene" rather than something less action-based like "place" implies there was actually something that played out at the location (a scene).
WhiteRabbit
drunknerds wrote::
That said, "A scene where law defended" is also a pretty strange way to describe a tennis court.
Well, what I'd say is that it's a playful and cryptic way to describe a tennis court. But it's simply a baffling way to describe a hanging, and one with only the most tenuous connection with an eighth...(and no explanation for other references like "long palm").
I still prefer this personally.
anus905
they use the term law defended...because the pirates had once previously ransacked the town, with blackbeard...so, they rallied themselves together, captured the pirates, and held a trial for them (well, some of them anyways)...so the law was used to defend the city from a second pillaging.
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Is there any evidence of Preiss using such playful and cryptic wordplay in the solved casks? Where I'm sitting it feels like Preiss hated wordplay: He calls a music and an art building "music" and "brush."
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Well, what I'd say is that it's a playful and cryptic way to describe a tennis court. But it's simply a baffling way to describe a hanging, and one with only the most tenuous connection with an eighth...(and no explanation for other references like "long palm").
It was a TRIAL and it was on the 8th (although I do concede referencing "the eighth" is odd because that date apparently was not on the monument.)
hxxp://www.southernspiritguide.org/wp-c ... nument.jpg
"Long Palm" is referenced FOUR lines later in the verse, and there are long palm trees all over near the monument.
It frustrates me when people misrepresent basic facts to tunnel a theory they've already presented a long time ago. It's fine to have a different theory, but let's have a back-and-forth of both the good and bad parts. That means seeing facts for what they are: Great clues, and not as threats to a particular solve we happen to like.
Don't forget, arguing against one solve doesn't prove another. I really DON'T want it to be in WPG, but I'm not going hand-wave away obvious links like monument references (which Preiss was known to do) in favor of fancy wordplay (which, as far as I can tell, has zero presence in the solved puzzles outside of possibly "beneath two countries").
anus905
drunknerds wrote::
Is there any evidence of Preiss using such playful and cryptic wordplay in the solved casks? Where I'm sitting it feels like Preiss hated wordplay: He calls a music and an art building "music" and "brush."
there is a theme to those list clues
anus905
beneath two countries is def not the fanciest wordplay he uses...not even close! that's almost literal, in the sense there are 3 gardens but only two are named after countries (Italy and Serbia; with the third being the African American Garden). just look at the two different valid interpretations of the one clue in Milwaukee!!!!!! thats wayyyyy fancier.
"As you walk the beating of the world"
in the one sense (from Mitchell Hall) it would take you along DOWNER ("beat the world down")
in the other sense (from Wisconsin Club) it takes you down WELLES (via a war of the worlds interpretation!!!!)
its specifically designed to take you to BOTH...as you can do this for the first 7 clues and get to 2 entirely different parks (M. Hall leads you to Lincoln Pak; W. Hall leads you to Lake Park).
and obviously only one of those parks can actually have the treasure in it.
drunknerds
anus905 wrote::
beneath two countries is def not the fanciest wordplay he uses...not even close! that's almost literal, in the sense there are 3 gardens but only two are named after countries (Italy and Serbia; with the third being the African American Garden). just look at the two different valid interpretations of the one clue in Milwaukee!!!!!! thats wayyyyy fancier.
"As you walk the beating of the world"
in the one sense (from Mitchell Hall) it would take you along DOWNER ("beat the world down")
in the other sense (from Wisconsin Club) it takes you down WELLES (via a war of the worlds interpretation!!!!)
its specifically designed to take you to BOTH...as you can do this for the first 7 clues and get to 2 entirely different parks (M. Hall leads you to Lincoln Pak; W. Hall leads you to Lake Park).
and obviously only one of those parks can actually have the treasure in it.
That's a logical fallacy, though, "Preiss used wordplay because it is possible to interpret an ambiguous statement he made as wordplay." Just because something is possible doesn't mean it has to be.
That's why I was asking about the known solves. I'm a pattern man, and Preiss not doing a single bit of wordplay in the dozens of actually know-to-be-correct clue interpretations for dozens of clues for both known solves is too much of a pattern for me to consider using wordplay in future solves
anus905
but like, if you can follow two diff paths to 2 diff parks using valid interpretations, how can you negate that is part of the design?!? esp considering one is the park that 95% of people believe it is in.
anus905
and considering the path that leads to the treasure is the less easy to spot in the first place (as its called the Wisconsin Club, you only know its the old Mitchell Mansion if you look up the history!). I mean, if you cant accept shit that is reinforced for you I'm not surprised yo haven't made progress...at some point yo9u have to accept what is clearly right and what is clearly wrong (or, in another sense...what is the primary reading, and what is/are the secondary readings). its dialectics man.
anus905
dialectics is a term relating to the cinematic theories of Sergei Eisenstein (director of some of Russian's most renown films). it concerns how the mind compares and contrasts texts (texts can be anything...a word, a line of words, an image, a symbol etc) in order to achieve meaning through perception.
drunknerds
anus905 wrote::
but like, if you can follow two diff paths to 2 diff parks using valid interpretations, how can you negate that is part of the design?!? esp considering one is the park that 95% of people believe it is in.
Great question. I feel like you answered it yourself: We can use the same stuff to find a path to two different parks, therefore these solves are really susceptible to interpretation. You can follow paths to any park you want using not-so-creative interpretation of verses and images. That's why there's never been a puzzle in the history of puzzles that required creative interpretations of verse nor free association. That's why Preiss didn't use free association nor any interpretation in the two known solves: It just leads itself to a cluster headache with everyone convinced their solve is right just because it leads somewhere plausible.
Let's say I find a mysterious list. It says "green red blue 12 8 9, there's the treasure." Let's say I decide it might be a grocery list. I go to the store and find out that in aisles 12, 8, and 9, there's green and blue and red items. But then I also find that, in aisle 1, there''s a green item that costs $12, a red item that costs $8, and a blue item that costs $9. Would it be logical to conclude that the list is a grocery list based on the grounds that two interpretations both worked at a grocery store? No, the non-specific nature of the list makes me less likely to think it's a grocery list.
Did you see my Image 9 trick where I asked someone to pick any place (the picked Antarctica) then I found a dozen pretty good "clues" using
just a tiny bit of the picture and nothing else?
drunknerds
Also, in image 4 there were two things pointing straight to Philadelphia: L + Bell, and a keystone. Both based on wordplay/interpretation, and we all know how that turned out.
WhiteRabbit
drunknerds wrote::
It frustrates me when people misrepresent basic facts to tunnel a theory they've already presented a long time ago.
That sounds annoying, and I certainly didn't mean to, so apologies if I did. I only bumped it to clear up the confusion over the observatory. :-)
drunknerds
WhiteRabbit wrote::
1)
Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old
RLS links to SF via Treasure Island and the monument (a drinking fountain) in Portsmouth Square, Chinatown.
WhiteRabbit wrote::
2)
Or May 1913
Edwin and Edwina named after him
There's a well-known photographic portrait of the actor
Edwin Booth with daughter Edwina
, and a plaque referencing Edwin near a plaque for RLS.
Equity
, the actors union, was founded in May 1913 following secret meetings at Edwin Booth's mansion in NY. The phrase "
Fair remuneration
" appears in the
Equity handbook
, though I don't know when it first appeared.
WhiteRabbit wrote::
3)
Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended
Between two arms extended
Below the bar that binds
Beside the long palm's shadow
Embedded in the sand
These lines could be a description of the Lafayette Park tennis courts, which are on Octavia (the
eighth
). It's a "court", a scene where law defended, between "two [with] arms extended". "
Long palm
" is an early form of tennis. There are also actual palms in the park.
WhiteRabbit wrote::
4)
Waits the Fair remuneration
White house close at hand
The courts are next to an infamous white house which was the subject of a long-running dispute.
https://hoodline.com/2016/06/legendary- ... park-today
WhiteRabbit wrote::
5)
Possible image matches include a Victorian drinking fountain:
WhiteRabbit wrote::
...and the windows of the white house.
Yeh, I could have been way nicer about that accusation, WR. I acutally edited it to "I don't think you meant to misrepresent," but that got eaten up by the board's glitchiness.
WR, I love how well laid out your theories are. Makes it way easier to understand than people who post "hey the birds nose looks like a bush outside my house" with no pics.
Here's my opinions on your theory. Please keep in mind I WANT you to be right, because it would mean a lot of new areas to explore in terms of solve.
This Works for me.
To me, this is a tunnel:
- Why would Preiss decide to use Edwina as a reference to Edwin Booth? Why not just a fact about Booth himself or, if you're going to reference a relative, why not his EXTREMELY famous relative? Edwina doesn't appear anywhere on that plaque. It's a tunnel to me.
- May 1913 is a tunnel to me. Why would Preiss care to reference the formation of an actor's union all the way on the other side of the country, twenty years after Booth died. A logical reference would be to something that Booth did, or was known for, not some arbitrary thing that happened in New York that just happened to be at a house Booth used to own. This is what I mean when I keep hammering that "association" doesn't work in a puzzle because it's too broad. Billions of things have happened in people's homes, I could pick anyone and tunnel a location just based on stuff that happened in their home.
- "Fair Remuneration" got me excited for a second, until my wife informed me it's a common legal term that appears in a lot of union materials.
[/quote]
Hey, I like the Octavia tennis courts solve. I just have two issues:
- Preiss, who was a linguistic genius and stickler, said "a SCENE where law defended." Not a place, not a room, not an area, and especially not a SETTING. An inanimate patch of clay can't be described as a scene.
- San Francisco has Octavia and an 8th avenue. The odds are really high that one of them would hold a tennis or basketball court, or a real courtroom, or a courtyard. So, while the match is clever, it certainly doesn't have that "oh, this is unusual" aspect that makes interpretations really seem correct.
There are white houses everywhere. Literally everywhere. If one has to resort to finding interesting things about the house that have nothing to do with faeries or treasure, then that's tunneling in my strictest scene.
I love the first two , um, divots in the image matching with the first two divots beneath the fountain. That said, there's definitely no huge oblong piece. I can't see JJP putting in a part which dominates 80% of the base in the image when it's not in the actual fountain base. If I look at this a certain way, there are some great matches and I start to get really excited, but then my eyes keep getting drawn to the huge center oblong and any resemblance just dissolves
This really doesn't match, for my eyes. The proportions are off and there's no bars.
Keep 'dem coming, though, WR. Like I said, you lay these out in a really easy to understand way
Mister EZ
anus905 wrote::
but like, if you can follow two diff paths to 2 diff parks using valid interpretations, how can you negate that is part of the design?!? esp considering one is the park that 95% of people believe it is in.
Well, for me, there's more that puts me in Lake Park, other than just choosing Mitchell Hall or Mitchell Mansion as a starting point.
The image of the Bowman and the verse reference to Congress (parkway/hotel) was enough to put Gasiorowski, Wrobel and James directly inside Grant Park, while skipping / missing the original meaning of 'M and B'.
The image of the cicada (colloquially referred to as a 'locust', in these here parts), the millstone (which, looks like the stone storm drain located at the end of Locust Ravine Trail) and the verse reference to the Grand Staircase, is enough to get me next to the Bistro in Lake Park. While I may miss out on the historical references you're great at looking up, I don't have to decide whether to stroll along Downer, Welles or Kenwood (a third possibility).
"Do you have any advice for would-be hunters?' -- Mary Ann Childers
"Keep it simple" -- Eric Gasiorowski
anus905
the treasure hunt clues are sometimes hard to solve but the directions you discern from them are almost always quite simple, even if hidden under a few layers of symbolism at times.
when you get to the entire puzzle though, this brings in secondary and sometimes even third readings of these clues.
I have 3 sets of 3 high posts in my complete SF solve, although only one directly relates to solving the treasure hunt part itself.
this is EXACTLY how mythology works. if you aren't approaching this like a mythology, and/or aren't familiar with how mythology works...you simply aren't going to be able to solve these.
the texts that have specifically helped me solve this include: Dennis Tedlock's Popl Vuh; Nabokov's Where The Lightning Strikes; and writing (interpretations; ie how symbolism directs us to read narrative as viewers) about Vertigo (esp helped in SF bc there is a Movie/Vertigo theme to it) and Ben Wheatley's A Field In England.
writing about AFIE especially set me up for this.
anus905
these are not just treasure hunts...the treasure hunts are secondary. to engage people.
the primary reason that Preiss created this book, was to fashion his legacy...as possibly the greatest mythologist in the history of America.
this is Preiss' mythology of North America.
and it would blow even Homer away...
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
"Keep it simple" -- Eric Gasiorowski
"There's no such thing as simple. Simple is hard."--Martin Scorsese
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
hxxp://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/04/30/people-descend-san-francisco-search-buried-treasure/
Wow, they really tore up the grass in front of the Senior Center.
Thanks for posting!
anus905
he hasn't done crap in years for sf lol. merely keeps trying to guess final location without consideration for rest of the puzzle and still hasn't realized that's not how you do it. also....I like George...but that st aug podcast was brutal.
davinci4
Hi All. Just finished listening to podcast, which has been excellent BTW. They had mentioned some of the border symbols in this painting matching up to symbols found in Portsmouth square. Never heard of this before. Does anyone have pics?
anus905
I have an explanation for all the border symbols, and nothing has to do with Portsmouth square in my opinion. if you care.
MrBackstop
Okay Josh, I care....what are your meanings for the symbols? I have several for my solve but am still trying to figure out the 3 or so at the bottom.
maskit
The San Francisco Parks Department has a new podcast about The Secret.
https://player.fm/series/i-left-my-park ... asure-hunt
anus905
brutal lol. I was worried they were gonna talk about my solution...glad they didn't.
hes right about the expo but it covers at least 2 expos and the 1915 one is of lesser importance than the one at the de young.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
So cool that the SF Parks Dept is has become so engaged in the search -- they sound just as excited as the hunters! It's an awesome partnership and additional reason to go through the process of applying for a permit, I'm sure the supervising parks representative at each dig can be extra insightful in terms of theories and what's already been searched.
If you think about it, their involvement is a great resource and something totally unique to The Secret!
Maybe someone can go over to the Portals of the Past with them and probe behind it. Left side if you are facing the front. Right where the sort of natural flat spot is.
Not sure if I posted this, but I can see a connection between the columns of the Portals and the Roman numerals in the border of her dress. We have a III and a II.
If we look at his older photo of the Portals, we can see the replacement (giant?) pole on the right side in the back from when the earthquake of 1957 destroyed the original column. Also III and II, plus a pole.
JamesV
Saoirse wrote::
There's also a silhouette of McKinley on the mountain in the picture. He's located at the end of the panhandle of GGP though. Plus it looks like Alcatraz bars in the picture.
Wondering if any SF natives ever explored this idea any further?
If you look at the woman's dress as a possible overhead view of Golden Gate Park, wouldn't the pearl then be "located" somewhere in the Panhandle section of the park?
anus905
at gman, the roman numerals at top add up to 11, but bc everything is flipped, you change it to an "ace is high", to make it 21. by its location in painting its primarily telling us that crossover drive is our ace is high...and secondarily it points to the statue of the blackjack general (which is located in the vicinity of the bombs bursting in air guy) in the statue garden.
anus905
wheres the silhouette of McKinley?
cnllreds
I'm sharing my solution (link below) so that others may leverage the clues I've identified. Unfortunately, I think if these clues are right then I think we'll likely never find the Sf casque. One thing I would like to try is to get is JJP to confirm the folding of the image as I've done in my solution. The image appears to seamlessly merge the two sides and the blue aura and even hair combine to form a clue.
I had my second opportunity to dig at the Tea Garden today, but unfortunately the spot I hoped to explore had been trenched and excavated and no longer worth exploring.
You can find my solution here:
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/SF% ... pr2018.pdf
Appreciate any thoughts on the image clues and solution to the verse.
maltedfalcon
cnllreds wrote::
One thing I would like to try is to get is JJP to confirm the folding of the image as I've done in my solution.
Please don't bother JJP he has asked not to be contacted or questioned.
If you want to prove your theory, find the casque, if the casque is gone then this one just becomes a mystery
cnllreds
>Seabass
I took the fingers pointing to these spots to be an indication to fold the picture to pull these two sides together. When you do fold the picture, kind of like the old Mad magazine style fold, the figure appears to be a ninja type hooded figure. It's simply a clue to indicate an asian theme, but its a very clean image that comes together. When combined with the Tea Pot below the table then these two clues led me to the tea garden.
cnllreds
That would be true, but I happened on that clue first and found it interesting that at the precise spots that the fingers point to would come together so nicely to form the image that I didn't think it was coincidence. Then in finding that, the other distractions of the image where removed and the tea pot became more apparent as the key clue.
Who knows if that was intended but it's a simple solution to what those finger positions are eluding to and they are there for a reason I would guess.
anus905
in one sense they are def pointing to spot that Hwy 1 enters and exits park.
cnllreds
Why are you jealous?? Relax, its just a one possible solution...I'm not claiming Jesus and Byron came to me in my sleep and confirmed it.
(...but Dude, its clearly a Tea Pot! There are at least 2 other clues that seem to indicate the tea garden. There's an immigrant theme to these puzzles...How many check boxes do you want before considering the possibility?)
btw...I'm not seeing many recent Image 1 solutions sticking with the immigrant theme, and I think you can boil down those immigrant related locations to a handful of GGP spots.
In the end, I hope there is something available to find, but I'm concerned it was buried in the Tea Garden and its been destroyed by renovations.
anus905
you go to the teagarden for half the womans face (other half is sphinx in sculpture garden)...treasure isn't there.
BINGO
I found these San Francisco cable car photos in a 1981 National Parks Atlas. I thought that I would share.
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about this puzzle and the photos provided are simply a courtesy to those who do. Enjoy.
https://imgur.com/gallery/1Y5VU8q
anus905
that first one looks like it might be the sign outside the bank by the whole foods about the history of cable cars.
catherwood
BINGO wrote::
I found these San Francisco cable car photos in a 1981 National Parks Atlas. I thought that I would share.
For those of us with smaller monitors, links are preferred rather than embedding huge images.
https://imgur.com/gallery/1Y5VU8q
https://i.imgur.com/vTsw3Cr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tO7WUS3.jpg
maltedfalcon
catherwood wrote::
For those of us with smaller monitors, links are preferred rather than embedding huge images.
even for those of us with big multiple monitors!
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Hi. For anyone interested, After playing with the San Francisco image/verse, I've come up with a really tidy and interesting non-Golden Gate Park solution in Aquatic Park. Check it out and let me know what you think:
https://thesecretsfsolution.blogspot.com/
I haven't read it yet but huge props for using a blog page! I hadn't thought of doing that, great idea!!
Edit: nice work. I'll have to run through it but very compelling argument here.
BrandonH
Durian wrote::
Hi. For anyone interested, After playing with the San Francisco image/verse, I've come up with a really tidy and interesting non-Golden Gate Park solution in Aquatic Park. Check it out and let me know what you think:
https://thesecretsfsolution.blogspot.com/
Excellent job!
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Hi. For anyone interested, After playing with the San Francisco image/verse, I've come up with a really tidy and interesting non-Golden Gate Park solution in Aquatic Park. Check it out and let me know what you think:
https://thesecretsfsolution.blogspot.com/
Excellent - Hi we on the forums have considered Aquatic park many times, it certainly could be the location...
a couple points for you to consider...
The hyde street cable car turntable is not in the same location as it was when the casques were buried. the cable car system was shutdown in 1979 and rebuilt (this includes the renovation and move of the hyde street turnaournd) it was opened to the public in 1984
so using the present location as an indicator is problematic. the park changed significantly between 79 and 84 ) a huge part being buried by the new turnaround that now moved from the intersection into the actual park.
street lights /lamp posts are routinely replaced and removed and upgraded. so using current street lights as a marker, clue is problematic.
for instance I was using very ornate street lights as a clue in one of my solves, but after further research it turns out they were installed in 1984 and in 1981 there were no streetlights there at all.
Using the Eureka as a clue is also problematic as it is a boat (therefore it moves) while it was docked on that pier, in 1981 it was not in the location where it currently resides. so that will throw your bearings off a significant bit. I personally remember visiting in the early 80s and it was on the east side of the pier much closer to the street and it was there for a while, they were either renovating or constructing the current docking position at that time.
Any way be sure in your head, to re-create the way it looked in 1981, before trying to solve the clues.
gManTexas
Sage words from Malted as always.
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
even for those of us with big multiple monitors!
Time for the old guard to get some spectacles?
The link to the image gallery is in the original post. Just saying...
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Time for the old guard to get some spectacles?
The link to the image gallery is in the original post. Just saying...
Worn Glasses almost my whole life, Are you being a myopiaist? and dissing the vision impaired? (Just kidding!)
the link scrolls off cause the page fills with image...
BINGO
maltedfalcon wrote::
Worn Glasses almost my whole life, Are you being a myopiaist? and dissing the vision impaired? (Just kidding!)
the link scrolls off cause the page fills with image...
Not sure why the images are that big so suddenly. I haven’t changed my upload routine on Imgur and they are blowing up randomly. That’s why I added the gallery link in the first place.
Oh well, links only from now on. My apologies to the old guard.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Thanks for the response Malted! I hear you about things moving, but I was born in SF and those streetlamps have likely been there since at least the early 1970s. The turnaound and/or the boat being moved a matter of literally a stone's throw doesn't really change much. The real question for my solution is how long have those steps coming off of Hyde street been there? Everything else fits nicely, and the whole stroll keeps Angel Island in view, a priority for the author. I'm sticking with my solution.
you would think it wouldn't but since you are searching for a 5" square simply choosing to use the bow or the stern or the smokestack as your bearing, will cause a significant difference in you "spot" That the boat moved laterally 100 yards is a big deal.
but in general I believe that stairway and walkways and grassy areas were created in 1983/84 when the park was rennovated for the enhanced streetcar turnaround. This is also when the park was added to the historic places register so that they had just done significant upgrades prior to that makes sense.
maltedfalcon
maltedfalcon wrote::
you would think it wouldn't but since you are searching for a 5" square simply choosing to use the bow or the stern or the smokestack as your bearing, will cause a significant difference in you "spot" That the boat moved laterally 100 yards is a big deal.
but in general I believe that stairway and walkways and grassy areas were created in 1983/84 when the park was rennovated for the enhanced streetcar turnaround. This is also when the park was added to the historic places register so that they had just done significant upgrades prior to that makes sense.
Nope I am wrong your stair way was definitely there in 81!
maltedfalcon
1969 Aquatic Park.
maltedfalcon
that is the eureka there but like I said it was moved around in the early 80s
Also you can see the turnaround is also in a different place at this time it was more of a 90 degree turn
which now that I look at it kind of looks like it is right on top of your stairway, you should research that more.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Can't see the stairs in the photo, but if you look above the cable car you'll see a lamppost peaking above the car. That's the giant pole in my proposed solution. Incidentally, it is of the same modern type that I believe are the "high posts are three" from earlier in the verse, so those were in the city in the seventies...
Anyway, the stairs are to the north of the post by a few feet (to the left in the photo), so they were definitely not "under" the old turnaround and may very well have been there in the seventies. Can't prove it with tools available to me at the moment, but I'd say it's a good bet they were.
is it me or is that turntable at street level ? or even above it, meaning no stairs at that point, unless instead of stairs down, they were stairs up in 81.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
From the photo and the others I've seen, the turnaround looks to be at the same level it is today—on a plane with Beach Street. The stairs run off Hyde into the park, and since Hyde is inclined between Beach and Jefferson, they would bring you up to the level of the turnaround from Hyde street—today and in the 70s.
I could be wrong but it looks to me like the old one just turned 90 and ran alongside the road level with the road. or maybe even a little above, because you would want it to roll off the turntable by gravity. In that case the stairs would not be there as the sidewalk would be at the same level as the area around the turntable.
The new turntable is at 45 degrees into the park leaving an area next to the sidewalk, it looks like they excavated the dirt under the old turntable and used it build up the area for the new turntable, which opened up the area and required the stairs to be put in since it now goes down from the sidewalk.
MrBackstop
When trying to figure out where the old Turntable was I use the "Circus Tent" shelter.
That shelter with the white circular top has been in the same spot for years and it used to line up perfectly with the old Turntable.
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
When trying to figure out where the old Turntable was I use the "Circus Tent" shelter.
That shelter with the white circular top has been in the same spot for years and it used to line up perfectly with the old Turntable.
picture?
MrBackstop
https://sfmta.photoshelter.com/gallery- ... T4YTtxFMnU
maltedfalcon
That shows me that there was no stairway there.
gManTexas
Durian,
First of all, hats off to you for a well thought out and coherent proposed solution. Second, there is a lot to like in here. I have a couple of thoughts:
Strengths
1. I love the interpretation of the table, clock, bell, rose. It fits pretty nicely.
2. Ghirardelli Square connection.
3. Lombard Street incorporation into your solve.
Weaknesses
1. Federal property. I have a hard time believing that BP would have buried anything on Federal Land. This assumes that it was under that status in 1982. Also, I realize that things were a bit more laid back in 1982, but why risk getting arrested or encouraging readers to dig in federal property?
2. I'm a bit flat on the Giant Pole. Street lights don't impress me much. However, given the benefit of the doubt, when combined with the not so giant steps, I'll buy that for the moment.
3. Ace is high reference is a little tenuous. Not sure if the Alice Marble Tennis Courts were there in '82, but could that be the Ace is High?
4. The dress in Image 1 is a pretty good match for GGP. It is hard to ignore that.
So, in looking at your proposed solve in a reverse way, could we perhaps could say that George Sterling Memorial Park would be a good candidate site? Twain speculated in silver mining in Nevada. You can see a lot of famous landmarks from Sterling Park.
Heading up from the Ghirardelli Square area, we could take the Larkin Stairs which is a giant step (or steps). This would put us in Sterling Park. I don't have any answers for giant pole at the moment, but I'm just throwing some ideas out there.
Disclaimer: I believe the casque is buried at the Portal of the Past in GGP. Although I am certainly open to other concepts.
gManTexas
Durian,
I like how you can discuss this without getting bent out of shape. You make a pretty persuasive set of arguments.
I like that monument, but it is far removed from the rest of the hunt, although I could see it as being inspiration.
What's your thoughts on the Dragon's Gate also being inspiration? It's somewhat of a landmark and I'm sure it was there in the 70s. Maybe some stuff just to place us in SF?
I'm still stuck on not being in GGP. It seems that most of the puzzles are centered in larger, well-established parks that have a history of conservation.
BTW, if you listen to the Shhh podcast, Malted Falcon mentions that he once saw a map of GGP area and the Great Highway letters matched the reversed Gh in the Image. Maybe the map maker (tourist type map) was taking artistic liberty and incorporating the signature font, but I tend to agree with Malted.
I could see that maybe you've nailed some of the tourist part of the puzzle, as I believe each puzzle has a dual purpose. First to take us on a visit through the city in question, then focus us on the actual casque location. Many of the landmarks you have pointed out would be very touristy, including the Coit Tower as our possible Giant Pole. Even for someone who has never visited the city, they would recognize the cable car on the hills, Lombard, the marina area, with Alcatraz in the distance, etc. In fact, the three times I've been to SF, I never even got to GGP, but I saw all that other stuff.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I've tried to put myself in the author's shoes when thinking about this puzzle. He likely did some research before flying out to San Francisco on what was likely a quick trip of 2 or 3 days. He would have had a plan. I doubt he had access to a guidebook with super detailed information about Golden Gate Park, like we do now. More likely, he had a guidebook that highlighted the usual tourist spots, so he planned his trip accordingly.
I think he probably spent a day walking around and taking photos. Maybe this was his once-in-a-lifetime trip to San Francisco, one of the world's great cities. My wife thinks he probably took a boat tour of the bay like any other tourist, hence the clear Alcatraz references. I assume he would not miss the opportunity to visit Angel Island, probably not intending to bury the treasure there, but just to see it for himself since he had a fascination with immigration.
So my question is this: in a book with a theme of immigration, why put the treasure somewhere obscure and make obscure references to fairly obscure parts of the city with no relation to immigration? Why not make references to famous songs, signs, and iconic San Francisco places in a part of town rich with immigration references? Chinatown, Russian Hill, North Beach, Fisherman's Wharf... Why make obscure Twain references when the Eureka is right there? Preiss probably saw the boat while walking around and thought: "Aha, I can make a verse about this using Mark Twain!" Why not make Angel Island a focal point? Not the place where the treasure was to be buried since it is remote, but a place to make the reader think about by featuring it prominently in the clues and visually prominently as the reader physically walks about the city following the clues? Wasn't the Chicago casque found in a well traveled park close to downtown? The whole reason for dressing up like a city/utility worker was because he was burying these things in public.
Regarding the Dragon Gate being inspiration, I think that's totally possible!
My two cents.
There are people who have way more knowledge of the history of the hunt in SF than me, but I believe some people think BP actually spent a good deal of time there, between attending grad school at Stanford and spending time with his future wife who lived in SF. I want to say this has been a tough one to crack because he had time to weave a lot of narrative into the puzzle. I think the Image is a bit overwhelming in the amount of crazy detail, almost like he handed JJP 100 photos and said "incorporate ALL of this!"
Having looked at most of the puzzles, I believe the immigration connections are a bit of a side note and perhaps just a literary device to frame the book. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of the puzzles that really emphasize the immigration angle, especially the nationality for a particular puzzle, like Italian for Boston or German for Milwaukee. I think it's more of a 30,000 foot thing.
MrBackstop
Durian, very well put together solve. I like seeing your thought process and the various photos to go along with it. I too believe the casque is in National Maritime Park. And although I've made some new discoveries and revamped a couple thoughts on Image 1 and the Verse, I'm still in the same park but looking for a targeted dig spot.
As for the Rose on the J-shaped stem. I've described before how the rose is a Bardou Job Rose that is famously grown in two areas of the World....Wales and Alcatraz. The background behind the rose is above the horizon line indicating the Bardou Rose on Alcatraz.
The J-shaped stem represents two things. First, it is similar to all the wrought iron, decorative fencing and posts in San Francisco and around the Maritime park. Second, The Maritime Park is bound by Beach St to the South, Hyde to the East, and Jefferson to the North. Notice the vine making the number 3 below it,....Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President of the United States.
That's just another of the many reasons my solve is in this park.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
Durian, very well put together solve. I like seeing your thought process and the various photos to go along with it. I too believe the casque is in National Maritime Park. And although I've made some new discoveries and revamped a couple thoughts on Image 1 and the Verse, I'm still in the same park but looking for a targeted dig spot.
As for the Rose on the J-shaped stem. I've described before how the rose is a Bardou Job Rose that is famously grown in two areas of the World....Wales and Alcatraz. The background behind the rose is above the horizon line indicating the Bardou Rose on Alcatraz.
The J-shaped stem represents two things. First, it is similar to all the wrought iron, decorative fencing and posts in San Francisco and around the Maritime park. Second, The Maritime Park is bound by Beach St to the South, Hyde to the East, and Jefferson to the North. Notice the vine making the number 3 below it,....Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President of the United States.
That's just another of the many reasons my solve is in this park.
The Bardou Job Rose seems to have been discovered on Alcatraz in 1989. The history of it sounds murky enough to not be a candidate.
MrBackstop
I'll throw another one at you real quick. You see the rock in C/D-4 with the 3 crosses on it? Notice that there are other horizontal bars on the vertical bar of the crosses. This is because those aren't crosses, they are the masts of the Balclutha....as in:
Not far away
High posts are three
MrBackstop
Yes Gman, discovered in '89.....the word "discovered" is key. They are believed to have been there for decades without any clear knowledge of how they got there. An employee? A prisoner? A visitor? who knows.
MrBackstop
I forgot to ask....to not be a candidate...for what?
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
I forgot to ask....to not be a candidate...for what?
Even if BP knew about it, how would any treasure hunters? This is a very specific rose variety that was thought to be extinct. For the general population, a rose is Shakespeare, or a garden or simply the outline of something.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
I'll throw another one at you real quick. You see the rock in C/D-4 with the 3 crosses on it? Notice that there are other horizontal bars on the vertical bar of the crosses. This is because those aren't crosses, they are the masts of the Balclutha....as in:
Not far away
High posts are three
That is something I can agree with. Especially since it was used at times to house immigrants.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
My comment regarding the map would be this: what are the odds this map "with a reversed Gh?"
zero, on the map the G and h were correctly oriented. although the h in highway was lower case.
MrBackstop
Oh, I see what you are saying now Gman. I was under the impression that the Bardou Job was introduce in 1850 like the other heirloom roses and that it survived over the decades of time. The point I was still making is about the roses Alcatraz was famous for and the Gardens that have been around since the 1800s. I believe BP would have definitely been aware of the roses and vegetable gardens. When I took my tour of Alcatraz 8 years ago I learned all about those items. I'm would guess BP would have toured or learned about the roses and gardens the same way I did.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Hi gMan,
Thanks for the back and forth. I love it! That's what a board is supposed to be all about...
I haven't heard the podcast. My comment regarding the map would be this: what are the odds this map "with a reversed Gh?" was seen by the author, vs. the odds of the author seeing the Ghirardelli sign? And why a lowercase "h" for Great Highway vs. a lowercase h for Ghirardelli? Along the Hyde St. cable car line, I believe your first glimpse of the sign as you come down the hill is the "Gh," with the rest of the sign obscured.
I agree that the Gh is very distinct and that alone might get you to SF. I also agree that you would see it reversed on the Ghiradelli building, I've seen it myself.
I should have said that it was not reversed on the alleged tourist map, from what I gather. I do believe that BP would have seen a tourist map from that time period, or simply, BP and JJP being clever in the design of the puzzle. A lot of things in these puzzles seem to have dual meanings. I am in essence agreeing with you, although I am having some trouble placing the casque outside of GGP or the immediate area of GGP.
I think we are presented with clues from around the city, or cities if you expand this to all of the puzzles. They help ground us in the location and present historical or physical references that we can use to help solve the dig location.
Take Milwaukee for example. There are many references downtown to various landmarks, buildings and people. This aids us in the hunt in Lake Park, where many people believe the casque is located. Moving back to SF, in the Coit Tower, we have arched windows (like the arch in Image 1) that overlook parts of the city including the harbor. In the tower, we also have murals depicting scenes, including the mural of "Library" showing a copy of Karl Marx's Das Kapital. In GGP we have Marx Meadow, albeit named after a different Marx, however I contend that if we make these connections, then see that Marx can represent Mark's Meadow, as a clever play on words, Twain's attention would be a good fit.
I firmly believe that BP truly thought these puzzle were easier than they are. In this respect he created a masterpiece that is still alive some 36 years later, but also a failure in that most people gave up and he was never able to release a second book as originally intended. Yes, two casques were recovered, the first with help from the author and the second by brute force. I do not believe that either group had "solved" the riddles. Now, we could also say that both of the finds were arguably easier puzzles, although it is easy to say in retrospect. If we assign a value to the gem as being an indicator of the complexity of the puzzle, as BP mentioned, then why have SF, Milwaukee, and New Orleans not been found?
I suspect that in order to find the casque in SF, you would need to be relatively familiar with the city, or dedicate a lot of time in the local library, especially back in 1982. Here we are in 2018 armchair hunting with a ton of resources at our disposal and yet it is still elusive. I think you may be onto some great ideas, and I'd like to see your wife's take on it. Keep sharing!
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I'll play along here. If the small circles (so not to be confused with actual bubbles or spheres in the Images) represent water, the entire map of GGP on her dress would be water. This is not far from the truth.
Originally, a necklace of parks was proposed by Fredrick Law Olmsted and they would have fit into the natural habitat of SF, requiring little water in the process. The city decided they wanted a park like Central Park, and thus it became GGP. Then they figured out they need huge irrigation systems and water works to support the park. Water and pipes everywhere. Just ask Malted, lol!
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
Oh, I see what you are saying now Gman. I was under the impression that the Bardou Job was introduce in 1850 like the other heirloom roses and that it survived over the decades of time. The point I was still making is about the roses Alcatraz was famous for and the Gardens that have been around since the 1800s. I believe BP would have definitely been aware of the roses and vegetable gardens. When I took my tour of Alcatraz 8 years ago I learned all about those items. I'm would guess BP would have toured or learned about the roses and gardens the same way I did.
The Bardou Job is actually a very old rose variety, but without having access to that information, I doubt it would be referenced. You could be right that gardens could be referenced at Alcatraz, but who thinks of that? I suppose if you took the tour, but I think it's a little bit of a stretch.
gManTexas
I believe Preiss was very familiar with Olmsted and also the history of every place he buried a casque. I also believe he was acutely aware of what was Federal Land and what was not. Let's look at Lake Park in Milwaukee again. Prior to 1969-70 there was Nike Missile Tracking Station in the park, crazy huh? Also, the North Point light house was run by the USCG. I believe he avoided those specific areas and buried the casque nearby. This lends credence to your possible solve, so I wouldn't rule it out, but he seemed to have given some though to where you should and shouldn't be digging.
Every treasure casque is buried underground, at a depth of no more than three to three and one-half feet. The casques are protected by lustrous transparent boxes, and are sealed.
The following places do not hold any treasure:
(a) any life-threatening location, such as a dangerous highway embankment, a contaminated area or active railway track
(b) any cemetery
(c) any public or private flower bed
(d) any property owned by the contributors to the book, their families or friends.
Now, this does not specifically say no to Federal Land, but who wants to run the risk of that, especially as you mentioned, running foul of the Antiquities Act. This guy was a bit of an adventurer, but at the end of the day, was a New Yorker with a job and family. He probably did not want to spend time in lockup in New Orleans.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Hi gMan,
Good points, all. Respectfully, my main critique of what you're saying re: the level of complexity in the puzzles (having multiple meanings, deep knowledge, etc.) would be that I think when trying to solve any problem, looking at the obvious solutions usually lead to an answer more quickly and more often than adding complexities that may or may not have been intended. Again, it's like Occam's razor. You may be right and many things in the puzzles might have double meanings, but if Preiss thought the puzzles were easy to solve, I would argue he probably didn't make them super complex, with a ton of multiple meanings.
What I'm saying is this: Maybe all the references to the waterfront are there simply for what they are—clues to get us looking around the waterfront to solve the problem.
I have personally never seen any real smoking gun that we are supposed to be looking in Golden Gate Park. The best argument for this from my perspective is that her dress flares out, similar to a map of the park. But when you put that up (along with potentially the Gh standing for Great Highway) versus all the references to cable cars, cable car bells, Alcatraz and justice, cable car turnarounds, Lombard Street, a boat that Mark Twain would be able to pilot today if we were able to suddenly revive him via science :-) ... If you put all of these things up against a dress that flares out (which I contend is a reference to Lombard Street anyway), and a reversed "Gh" on a map (which I contend is the view most people first get of a world-famous sign), I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that we are supposed to be at the waterfront. Has anyone considered that the artist put the flare in the dress just to throw us all off? That seems more likely to me, given the preponderance of references to the waterfront.
If you show a reversed "Gh" to one hundred San Franciscan's I bet you almost all of them say: "That's a reference to the Ghriardelli sign."
By the way, I'm an SF native and lived there most of my life. I've spent hour upon hour in GGP, but never visited Shakespeare's Garden. But maybe that was my bad, lol
Hey, almost any well reasoned theory is as good as another at this point until someone comes up with a casque.
People have tried this six ways to Sunday. Simple, complex, vectors, shadows, planetary alignments... I want to believe that it is simple. My opinion is that it becomes simple when you see it. This is why I am pleased with my Portals of the Past theory. Everything lines up in one spot and it's secluded. That's one thing we have not discussed yet, is the ease of burying the thing and more important, the ease of digging for it. The Cleveland guys dug for some 8-9 hours. The Chicago guys dug multiple times.
It's my thought that you will need at least a few hours of probing and digging to find one of these things. Nature of the game where trying to find an object so small with rough instructions. Do you think someone can do that in your proposed spot, even with permission?
Goonie68
Durian,
Awesome work with your proposed solution. I can see why the Aquatic park would be a great location, it does have a lot of clues you can connect to the verse and image. I am also a native of San Francisco born and raised, so the SF puzzle has been my focus for the most part. I have looked at it two ways, In the park (GGP) and out of the park(Downtown, Marina). I found that almost anything you can link to verse and image in both scenarios. Through my research, like gman said BP lived in the bay area for a time and had more knowledge about SF then I think he would of had with other locations. I also think that the puzzles where meant for more of the local people then tourist, because what are the chances that people who bought the book had the means to travel to all the cities he burred a casque in. I think the puzzles could resonate with the local people of the city's he had placed each casque in. With that being said, the one clue that sticks out to me is "High posts are three" SF 1970's-80's, the local TV stations (KTVU) channel 2 (FOX) now, during commercial breaks( Or KTVU image) they would show a picture of
Sutro
Tower between breaks or at the end of the broadcast right after Creature Feature (for those who remember and BP would of been a fan right? This was right up his alley) this was before TV was on 24/7, this Iconic picture was a stable in local broadcasting which almost any resident who owned a TV at the time would of know this. I am sure you remembered it right? I think if you are going to ask 100 people which one of these objects would be recognizable to SF natives they would say
Sutro
Tower, all though Gh is good too. This one image for me brings me to GGP after looking at all the other possibilities seeing the tower and reading the verse makes a strong connection for me. So looking at a few factors in your proposed solutions Questions would be:
Would BP take a risk in burring a casque in such a highly visible place with a sidewalk just feet way with Tons of passing bye people to see him. Would he jeopardize his "Secret" if someone saw him and decided to wait till he left and dug it up?
Both casque's that have been found connected to large parks with gardens and history to theses gardens. The back ground of the book is about nature and in all the images flowers are a common thread. Do you think the Aquatic Park fits this picture?
The quote " Great Western Sea, There was no place farther we could go" GGP sits on the edge of the west. Do you think this is more likely?
I think if you are a tourist then the wharf makes senses if your a local then GGP marke sense ?
As of right now my research has strengthen GGP ( for me) as the area of search. I could be way off as I do not have a caques and with out one everyone has a chance in there theories, again great work tying in clues, visuals and verse.
Goonie68
Durian,
Awesome work with your proposed solution. I can see why the Aquatic park would be a great location, it does have a lot of clues you can connect to the verse and image. I am also a native of San Francisco born and raised, so the SF puzzle has been my focus for the most part. I have looked at it two ways, In the park (GGP) and out of the park(Downtown, Marina). I found that almost anything you can link to verse and image in both scenarios. Through my research, like gman said BP lived in the bay area for a time and had more knowledge about SF then I think he would of had with other locations. I also think that the puzzles where meant for more of the local people then tourist, because what are the chances that people who bought the book had the means to travel to all the cities he burred a casque in. I think the puzzles could resonate with the local people of the city's he had placed each casque in. With that being said, the one clue that sticks out to me is "High posts are three" SF 1970's-80's, the local TV stations (KTVU) channel 2 (FOX) now, during commercial breaks( Or KTVU image) they would show a picture of Sutro Tower between breaks or at the end of the broadcast right after Creature Feature (for those who remember and BP would of been a fan right? This was right up his alley) this was before TV was on 24/7, this Iconic picture was a stable in local broadcasting which almost any resident who owned a TV at the time would of know this. I am sure you remembered it right? I think if you are going to ask 100 people which one of these objects would be recognizable to SF natives they would say Sutro Tower, all though Gh is good too. This one image for me brings me to GGP after looking at all the other possibilities seeing the tower and reading the verse makes a strong connection for me. So looking at a few factors in your proposed solutions Questions would be:
Would BP take a risk in burring a casque in such a highly visible place with a sidewalk just feet way with Tons of passing bye people to see him. Would he jeopardize his "Secret" if someone saw him and decided to wait till he left and dug it up?
Both casque's that have been found connected to large parks with gardens and history to theses gardens. The back ground of the book is about nature and in all the images flowers are a common thread. Do you think the Aquatic Park fits this picture?
The quote " Great Western Sea, There was no place farther we could go" GGP sits on the edge of the west. Do you think this is more likely?
I think if you are a tourist then the wharf makes senses if your a local then GGP marke sense ?
As of right now my research has strengthen GGP ( for me) as the area of search. I could be way off as I do not have a caques and with out one everyone has a chance in there theories, again great work tying in clues, visuals and verse.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Ha! You're 100% right, re: casques. Until someone comes up with one in SF, NY, or wherever, nobody with a theory—no matter how good or plausible—is an expert or has solved anything.
I'm just trying to make the point that IMO many theories tend to reach for clues and devise elaborate explanations while often overlooking the obvious or simple. For instance, there are many theories on the Twain reference, and almost all of them make some sort of sense on some level. I'm not saying any of them in particular is right or wrong, but the most obvious reference to Twain in SF is the Eureka. By far. Everything else, while valid, is not what one thinks of when one thinks of Twain. He piloted boats like the Eureka. He took his pen name from that type of boat. The Wikipedia page on Mark Twain makes no reference to Vivaldi, for instance. But people seem to think Vivaldi is a clue. Maybe?
I think when you can plausibly tie together enough obvious line-of-site references to one geographic location, ie. a cable car, a cable car bell, a reversed Gh, Alcatraz, Angel Island, the door to a chocolate factory (under the Gh and where the air smells sweet BTW), a boat of the type Twain would have piloted a hundred times, an image of water/islands in the distance—I think you are on to something. For me, it's hard to ignore the accumulation of that type of evidence. Even the Roman numerals in the dress could be representative of the clock tower at Ghirardelli. And as shown elsewhere, I think the symbol at the bottom of her dress could represent a cable car turnaround. There's a lot going on image/verse-wise in this one little slice of Russian Hill. Too much for me to ignore.
Do I think it would be easy to dig my proposed solution? Physically digging it out, yes. It's just weeds, though some utility boxes are nearby. There are a couple of BIG issues though. Who do you ask for permission? Is it the city, PG&E, or the NPS? Someone would need to start at City Hall and find out who owns that strip of land. The NPS Park Supervisor I spoke with said the location in question likely is an easement belonging to the city. If that's the case, getting a permit may be relatively easy. If it's owned by the feds, it's pretty much a game over situation. I'm sure the Park Service could be convinced to allow some ground penetrating radar of the location, and maybe some probing, but the American Antiquities Act of 1906 makes getting permission to dig almost impossible, according to my ranger source.
So someone in the Bay Area would need to start physically at City Hall, requesting the documents showing who owns the spot in question. I personally think getting hold of the plans/photos pre-turnaround renovation would be a good starting place as well, because if the stairs didn't exist before '79, obviously that's not the sight to dig. But like I said elsewhere on the forum, I'm pretty certain from the evidence there were stairs leading up to the turnaround from Hyde Street in the 70s, just like there were (and are today) stairs leading down to the turnaround from Beach Street. Makes a lot of sense.
Are you still kind of local to SF or do you visit there occasionally? I think the best thing to do is go to your spot and scope it out. Take pictures and video, maybe talk to some people. See what kind of coverage there is from authorities. Also, now you have webcams all over the place too, maybe see where they are because you will be monitored in some fashion.
Judge what type of effort would be required to possibly recover this thing. Even if it seems difficult, you'll never know until you dig. I believe that the option to query the publisher is gone since BP is no longer with us, and the company went belly up, so you cannot submit a proposed site to them any longer.
I also think you are on the right track with determining property ownership and possibly what was there and not there in 1980. You might be able to research some of this online at this point or make some calls.
As for probing, I think you might be able to do that without much attention, however, in a setting like that I think you'll hit a lot of stuff. GPR, while enticing, seems like overkill for a pearl. If you just want the satisfaction of finding the casque, then go for it, but again you might get a whole bunch of false readings.
Again, I like where you are going with this. Plausible stuff. I say evaluate it until you convince yourself either way.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
As far as the puzzles being for locals versus outsiders, I would only note that the author gave an address to write with a solution if someone figured it out remotely but didn't have access to the site. That tells me that in his mind, his puzzles were clearly intended to be solvable by people beyond just the locals.
or for people who were locals moved away but recognized the hints.
up to this point only only locals(ish) have found a casque
erexere
Durian,
Hi. I've only glanced at this thread over the past several weeks and took notice just now of your activity. I like the way you're exploring the ideas. Keep up the good work.
When I weigh the options you've put forth about the Gh, I think I'm more in camp A, where you find yourself for whatever reason looking towards the Ghirardelli sign. I really like how it has a "main street" feel, looking north towards the Alcatraz and the hills in the background. In the painting the G and the h are actually separated, and it's in our mind that we assume they are linked as they are adjacently found in the sign. I feel like that separation of two things normally found close together is a suggestion to be at some far distance from the sign, "increase the distance from the letters". Could this also be a directional clue to travel further west?
I was on a map kick just now, probably overdoing/overthinking or being liberally biased in my own way, as usual, but I feel the strong urge to look at a mirrored version of the painting while I develop a sense of perspective as I look at the standard map of SF. Certain things kinda stand out, like what looks like the little island of Alcatraz, and the shape of the Golden Gate Bridge peninsula and of course the large rectangular dragon impression of the main roads through Golden Gate Park. I wonder if the pointing finger is anchored to this pointing towards the cliffs of Lands End.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
up to this point only only locals(ish) have found a casque
True in Chicago. Not even marginally true for Cleveland. Having said that, people who were within a reasonable driving distance from a casque site had a considerable advantage over those that weren't, since being there in person was likely the only way to gather enough information to satisfy the requirements set forth in the book for claiming the jewel without actually digging up the casque. The internet has opened up the puzzle to a lot more people, but in many ways, specifically in regard to the end game, we are right back where Preiss intended. As this current conversation so clearly illustrates.
JoshCornell
I cold send mine in today and do that! id just rather try and dig it up first lol.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
id just rather try and dig it up firstt
You and me both Josh. Especially since in 2018, it remains the only way to know for sure whether you have the solution or just another solve.
Mister EZ
I gotta agree with Seabass. You found some things that are a bit more direct and compelling, such as the view from the top of Russian Hill....or, the symbol at the bottom of the dress, compared to the turnaround....or, the number of steps on either side of the stairs (fading away) vs. the number of squares in the sleeves....etc.
You don't need to read more into it and you don't need to find some other links (which may not really exist) in an attempt to justify things further, imho. Let the visual evidence stand on its own.
MrBackstop
Gman, you might be right about some people not thinking about life on Alcatraz and how many people may not know about prison life. But in 1975
I
was in the 6th grade and we studied wars and prisons pretty thoroughly.
At age 11
I
got to understand what type
of
hell my uncles went through in Viet Nam and what life was like for prisoners on Alcatraz.
I
kind
of
took for granted some
of
the basic info
I
learned as a 6th grader that may not have been covered in other parts
of
our country. The gardens
of
Alcatraz were well known in my school. We also studied a lot
of
details concerning the Victory Gardens created during WWII.
MrBackstop
Gman, you might be right about some people not thinking about life on Alcatraz and how many people may not know about prison life. But in 1975 I was in the 6th grade and we studied wars and prisons pretty thoroughly.
At age 11 I got to understand what type of hell my uncles went through in Viet Nam and what life was like for prisoners on Alcatraz. I kind of took for granted some of the basic info I learned as a 6th grader that may not have been covered in other parts of our country. The gardens of Alcatraz were well known in my school. We also studied a lot of details concerning the Victory Gardens created during WWII.
JoshCornell
there is a very logical da vinci connection that should be obvious to someone local...lol...
gManTexas
Durian, can you post a map or link with your x marks the spot?
maltedfalcon
ohhhh Totally not where
I
thought you meant....
maltedfalcon
ohhhh Totally not where I thought you meant....
gManTexas
So, in that clump of bushes? I'm a little concerned because it looks like there are electrical boxes there.
gManTexas
So, in that clump
of
bushes?
I
'm a little concerned because it looks like there are electrical boxes there.
gManTexas
Only one verse tells us to get permission to dig. I think he buried everything else away from power lines. Think of the liability.
gManTexas
Only one verse tells us to get permission to dig.
I
think he buried everything else away from power lines. Think
of
the liability.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Also,
I
know some people think my use
of
streetlights on a corner as the "high posts are three" is weak sauce. How about this then... The view, from the very same street corner, the corner where Ghirardelli Chocolate is:
Remember, the Balcutha (the sailing ship) wasn't there when Preiss created The Secret. Now, think about something from the painting:
I
believe these symbols are topographical symbols. According to the USGS, a blue circle represents a water tank, the triangle a peak, and the two squares with dots represent a "Land grant, homestead, mineral, or other special survey monument." The three red circles in my image above are "high points" features
of
Alcatraz: the smokestack (other special monument), the water tower (a well), and the guard tower (another other special monument). These are the three high posts. At 788 feet, the peak
of
Mt. Livermore on Angel Island is probably the triangle. All four are grouped together in the painting because they are references to a single view
of
Alcatraz and Angel Island, both referenced also in the line "Education and Justice for all to see."
Image and verse.
And since you get this view from Ghirardelli, the symbols are on the same "line
of
sight" in the painting as the reversed "Gh."
I
like the idea
of
a guard tower being a post.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Also, I know some people think my use of streetlights on a corner as the "high posts are three" is weak sauce. How about this then... The view, from the very same street corner, the corner where Ghirardelli Chocolate is:
Remember, the Balcutha (the sailing ship) wasn't there when Preiss created The Secret. Now, think about something from the painting:
I believe these symbols are topographical symbols. According to the USGS, a blue circle represents a water tank, the triangle a peak, and the two squares with dots represent a "Land grant, homestead, mineral, or other special survey monument." The three red circles in my image above are "high points" features of Alcatraz: the smokestack (other special monument), the water tower (a well), and the guard tower (another other special monument). These are the three high posts. At 788 feet, the peak of Mt. Livermore on Angel Island is probably the triangle. All four are grouped together in the painting because they are references to a single view of Alcatraz and Angel Island, both referenced also in the line "Education and Justice for all to see."
Image and verse.
And since you get this view from Ghirardelli, the symbols are on the same "line of sight" in the painting as the reversed "Gh."
I like the idea of a guard tower being a post.
JoshCornell
durian,
I
highly suggest you run through what others have done on these puzzles to give yourself a little more context about what has already been figured out.
JoshCornell
durian, I highly suggest you run through what others have done on these puzzles to give yourself a little more context about what has already been figured out.
maskit
Unknown:
In 1982 the orientation of the entrance of the cable car line at Victorian Park was altered. Originally the line entered the park on the east side from Hyde Street at a 90-degree angle (the tracks were parallel to Beach Street). After renovations, the tracks entered the park at the southeast corner at roughly a 45-degree angle. In addition, a path that originally followed the slope around the cable car platform was moved farther north to accommodate the newly extended flll slope designed for the realigned turnaround. During this renovation, the east side of the plaza was extended and a new seating area created. This area was covered with interlocking brick pavers. A new set of concrete steps lead to the sidewalk along Hyde Street. Sometime after 1982 the Victorian Park paths and plaza were paved with asphalt.
Hi Durian, I liked a lot about your solution and want to thank you for sharing it. Being able to see the Gh, the steamboat and Alcatraz all from this spot are potentially great confirmers. Plus, the comparison of the table top in the painting to the cable car turntable appears to be entirely plausible. It sure seems as if the casque might be in this area. However, the concrete steps down to Hyde Street were not installed until 1982.
This information was found on page 82:
https://www.nps.gov/safr/getinvolved/up ... -28-17.pdf
The area in and around the turntable is called Victorian Park. The original design was intended to be reminiscent of the Victorian era, complete with ornate benches and gas lamps. It would be logical for the new 1982 stair railings and ironwork to continue with this same type of detail.
maskit
Unknown:
In 1982 the orientation
of
the entrance
of
the cable car line at Victorian Park was altered. Originally the line entered the park on the east side from Hyde Street at a 90-degree angle (the tracks were parallel to Beach Street). After renovations, the tracks entered the park at the southeast corner at roughly a 45-degree angle. In addition, a path that originally followed the slope around the cable car platform was moved farther north to accommodate the newly extended flll slope designed for the realigned turnaround. During this renovation, the east side
of
the plaza was extended and a new seating area created. This area was covered with interlocking brick pavers. A new set
of
concrete steps lead to the sidewalk along Hyde Street. Sometime after 1982 the Victorian Park paths and plaza were paved with asphalt.
Hi Durian,
I
liked a lot about your solution and want to thank you for sharing it. Being able to see the Gh, the steamboat and Alcatraz all from this spot are potentially great confirmers. Plus, the comparison
of
the table top in the painting to the cable car turntable appears to be entirely plausible. It sure seems as if the casque might be in this area. However, the concrete steps down to Hyde Street were not installed until 1982.
This information was found on page 82:
https://www.nps.gov/safr/getinvolved/up ... -28-17.pdf
The area in and around the turntable is called Victorian Park. The original design was intended to be reminiscent
of
the Victorian era, complete with ornate benches and gas lamps. It would be logical for the new 1982 stair railings and ironwork to continue with this same type
of
detail.
gManTexas
maskit wrote::
Hi Durian,
I
liked a lot about your solution and want to thank you for sharing it. Being able to see the Gh, the steamboat and Alcatraz all from this spot are potentially great confirmers. Plus, the comparison
of
the table top in the painting to the cable car turntable appears to be entirely plausible. It sure seems as if the casque might be in this area. However, the concrete steps down to Hyde Street were not installed until 1982.
This information was found on page 82:
https://www.nps.gov/safr/getinvolved/up ... -28-17.pdf
The area in and around the turntable is called Victorian Park. The original design was intended to be reminiscent
of
the Victorian era, complete with ornate benches and gas lamps. It would be logical for the new 1982 stair railings and ironwork to continue with this same type
of
detail.
maskit, great find. Interestingly Victorian Park was already there. Let's assume for a second that Durian is correct. Short
of
feeling an obligation to bury a new casque, what if it had been in the park and was destroyed in the 1982 renovation? While
I
think that the casque is in GGP, Victorian Park could certainly be an object
of
Twain's attention, since he co-authored the book, The Guilded Age: A Tale
of
Today, which was set during the Victorian era.
One caveat here, BP was intimately familiar with SF and could have easily waited until the renovations were complete to bury the casque, although that would be kind
of
a jerk move if the book was already in circulation.
My take is that perhaps this is a clue, but for the tour
of
the city sights.
I
believe each puzzle has a dual meaning and that we are taken around the city first, then to the treasure location. The real hunt in SF, IMHO, is in GGP.
gManTexas
maskit wrote::
Hi Durian, I liked a lot about your solution and want to thank you for sharing it. Being able to see the Gh, the steamboat and Alcatraz all from this spot are potentially great confirmers. Plus, the comparison of the table top in the painting to the cable car turntable appears to be entirely plausible. It sure seems as if the casque might be in this area. However, the concrete steps down to Hyde Street were not installed until 1982.
This information was found on page 82:
https://www.nps.gov/safr/getinvolved/up ... -28-17.pdf
The area in and around the turntable is called Victorian Park. The original design was intended to be reminiscent of the Victorian era, complete with ornate benches and gas lamps. It would be logical for the new 1982 stair railings and ironwork to continue with this same type of detail.
maskit, great find. Interestingly Victorian Park was already there. Let's assume for a second that Durian is correct. Short of feeling an obligation to bury a new casque, what if it had been in the park and was destroyed in the 1982 renovation? While I think that the casque is in GGP, Victorian Park could certainly be an object of Twain's attention, since he co-authored the book, The Guilded Age: A Tale of Today, which was set during the Victorian era.
One caveat here, BP was intimately familiar with SF and could have easily waited until the renovations were complete to bury the casque, although that would be kind of a jerk move if the book was already in circulation.
My take is that perhaps this is a clue, but for the tour of the city sights. I believe each puzzle has a dual meaning and that we are taken around the city first, then to the treasure location. The real hunt in SF, IMHO, is in GGP.
JoshCornell
the connection to Angel Island are the elephants. Can you see the elephants? "I have seen the elephants"
JoshCornell
the connection to Angel Island are the elephants. Can you see the elephants? "
I
have seen the elephants"
JoshCornell
as per your first question, as
I
've said numerous times and gman has reiterated here...the treasure hunt is located within a larger puzzle, that is the mythology
of
the location you are in...there is always one clue in the verse that connects you to this, and many visual clues.
JoshCornell
as per your first question, as I've said numerous times and gman has reiterated here...the treasure hunt is located within a larger puzzle, that is the mythology of the location you are in...there is always one clue in the verse that connects you to this, and many visual clues.
MrBackstop
Durian, I've enjoyed checking out your posts and agree with you that the casque is buried in National Maritime Park. I don't have your dig spot in my solve but like all the info you've included to make your solve.
Let me add something to the NMP location. I haven't noticed anyone talk about the letters in the Snake toward the bottom. I very clearly see a letter "g", "E", and "o" which of is the abbreviation for George. If you then take the snake and look at it from the side you see the letter "H". This is indicating George Hyde for whom Hyde Street is named. And of course, Hyde Street borders the NMP with Jefferson. The Rose on top of the turntable makes the letter "J" for Jefferson and the other vine makes the number "3". Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President of the United States.
Something to keep in mind about the Balclutha, she wasn't where she is now when BP was there but, she was just a pier or two over and that would not affect the ability to see her masts.
MrBackstop
Durian,
I
've enjoyed checking out your posts and agree with you that the casque is buried in National Maritime Park.
I
don't have your dig spot in my solve but like all the info you've included to make your solve.
Let me add something to the NMP location.
I
haven't noticed anyone talk about the letters in the Snake toward the bottom.
I
very clearly see a letter "g", "E", and "o" which
of
is the abbreviation for George. If you then take the snake and look at it from the side you see the letter "H". This is indicating George Hyde for whom Hyde Street is named. And
of
course, Hyde Street borders the NMP with Jefferson. The Rose on top
of
the turntable makes the letter "J" for Jefferson and the other vine makes the number "3". Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President
of
the United States.
Something to keep in mind about the Balclutha, she wasn't where she is now when BP was there but, she was just a pier or two over and that would not affect the ability to see her masts.
Goonie68
Durian, Maybe you can clarify the starting point a little more. IF "At stone wall's door" is the front
of
the Ghirardelli building where you should start the puzzle, how do you use the backwards Gh if you start in front
of
the building? If you are too see the Gh from behind the building to confirm the visual clue in the image, like you have in your solution on Hyde street, that would put you south
of
the Aquatic park to see the Gh, Angle Island, Alcatraz ? Starting at the Ghirardelli building go up Hyde street (to see the Gh backwards) then back down Hyde street, back to the front
of
the Ghirardelli building?
I
am also curious about what you thoughts are on the Rock face( Regan, Lincoln, JFK)
I
didn't see this in your solution.
Goonie68
Durian, Maybe you can clarify the starting point a little more. IF "At stone wall's door" is the front of the Ghirardelli building where you should start the puzzle, how do you use the backwards Gh if you start in front of the building? If you are too see the Gh from behind the building to confirm the visual clue in the image, like you have in your solution on Hyde street, that would put you south of the Aquatic park to see the Gh, Angle Island, Alcatraz ? Starting at the Ghirardelli building go up Hyde street (to see the Gh backwards) then back down Hyde street, back to the front of the Ghirardelli building? I am also curious about what you thoughts are on the Rock face( Regan, Lincoln, JFK) I didn't see this in your solution.
Diceycat
Some food for thought. I think golden gate park is the site but not sure of the exact location of the casque.
Have not done much research on this so go easy on me.
1: Sounds from the sky = Andean cloud forest (as seen on google maps),
2: Near ace is high = Martin Luther King Jr. Drive ( Ace is higher than a King)
3: Running north but first across = just like it sounds go across the street and head north
4 In jewels direction is an object of Twain’s attention = well if it wasn’t a giant sequoia tree then it’s music
5: Giant pole = the flag pole in the music concourse or a giant sequoia tree some where nearby
6: Giant step = now this is the difficult part but it could be the shadow cast by the pole and where the end falls at (high noon) I know it’s a big guess , could also be a giant step away from the tree.
I also like the tall pole that’s in the park as a potential dig site but don’t see it fitting in the the lines easily
There are other things I like about this location 1: the fountain with the cat fighting the snake , the face of the girl sort of looks cat like and the fact she is clasping her hands together like the cat that is grasping the snake and the fact that the serpent is in the image too and the location of the hands in relation to the image of the park it’s at that near end of the park.
2: I like the berry image under the hands, could represent a light from one of the light posts or if you invert it there is a berry or pineapple looking piece on top of one of the fountains dedicated to the memory of a Hearst.
Diceycat
Some food for thought.
I
think golden gate park is the site but not sure
of
the exact location
of
the casque.
Have not done much research on this so go easy on me.
1: Sounds from the sky = Andean cloud forest (as seen on google maps),
2: Near ace is high = Martin Luther King Jr. Drive ( Ace is higher than a King)
3: Running north but first across = just like it sounds go across the street and head north
4 In jewels direction is an object
of
Twain’s attention = well if it wasn’t a giant sequoia tree then it’s music
5: Giant pole = the flag pole in the music concourse or a giant sequoia tree some where nearby
6: Giant step = now this is the difficult part but it could be the shadow cast by the pole and where the end falls at (high noon)
I
know it’s a big guess , could also be a giant step away from the tree.
I
also like the tall pole that’s in the park as a potential dig site but don’t see it fitting in the the lines easily
There are other things
I
like about this location 1: the fountain with the cat fighting the snake , the face
of
the girl sort
of
looks cat like and the fact she is clasping her hands together like the cat that is grasping the snake and the fact that the serpent is in the image too and the location
of
the hands in relation to the image
of
the park it’s at that near end
of
the park.
2:
I
like the berry image under the hands, could represent a light from one
of
the light posts or if you invert it there is a berry or pineapple looking piece on top
of
one
of
the fountains dedicated to the memory
of
a Hearst.
Diceycat
Read your theory and it sounds plausible as well.
I have given mine more thought on the location being golden gate park ( nothing is carved in stone)
1: At stone wall door the air smells sweet = the SanFrancisco Botanical garden entrance way has a stone wall and if you open the door then sweet smelling flowers or just the fact that there are flowers growing by the doorway.
2: Not far away high posts are 3 = there are 3 tall posts at the entranceway to the gardens along MLK jr. drive
3: Education and justice for all to see = well the streets are virtually all named after politicians ( justice ),and inside the garden area itself is a library as well the garden itself is educational
4: Sounds from the sky = planetarium across the street
5: Near ace is high = close to MLK jr. dr. (Ace is higher than a king)
6: running north but first across = go north across MLK jr. dr.
7: in jewels direction is an object of Twains attention = either the music concourse or a giant sequoia tree
8: Giant pole = flag pole , polecat maybe that cat in the fountain ( graspping at straws),or a giant sequoia tree
9: Giant step = the steps leading to the bottom of the music concourse, or a giant step away from the sequoia tree
Have not given the image much attention yet
Diceycat
Working on the image ,not complete and could be 100% wrong.
Sure The barred arched window on the top probably represents Alcatraz island that’s just a clue for locating SF.as the city
Its the girl like I said , her face is almost cat like her hands go over the serpent the serpent is surrounded by blue bubbles (water) this relates to the fountain in the music concourse showing the cat grabbing the snake and the snake all coiled like in the image .It could also represent an aquarium like your solve.
The berry image under the hands if inverted is like the berry on top of the Hearst fountain at the side of the music concourse
The rectangular shape that the serpent is surrounded by is the shape of golden gate park. Location of the hands in relation to the park image puts it close to the west side of the park
Might try to justify the other symbols later getting late.
JoshCornell
i took your eagle to be a crow, and theres not just that one...the wings of the dragon too.
btw one of coolest things you can do in SF is hang out on Twin Peaks at dusk and watch the crows float motionless in the wind, right in front of your face...so f**cking cool. large crow pops have been tracked in SF since the 50s...also connects with the telegraph hill clue (parrot in the rocks on the right).
major amounts of crows in ggp too.
JoshCornell
id say her face is sphinx like so you arent far off...maybe with the cheeks off buddha (ok definitely)...
JoshCornell
slightly off angel island alcatraz ghiradelli...and there are places before that too...
JoshCornell
remember, in the large context you generally follow the path the immigrants take (moultrie, ellis, and in this case angel island, starting at the immigration station; or colonists, st aug; though sometimes its different...like in mtl...where you follow the path of dutch immigrants in boer territory of south africa).
JoshCornell
fyi durian, it was only named MLK Jr Dr in the 90s...before that it was called South Dr.
Diceycat
Another possibility for the checkered cuffs are that they represent the inner stone walls of the music concourse . The curl in the flower stem represents the arms of the benches. The clock on the pedestal ( now this might be a stretch) represents the sundial on the pedestal in Shakespeares’ garden. Who knows how many things have changed since 1980
Diceycat
I still have this notion that the final or close to final dig spot is depicted in the center or very close to the center of these 12 images.
Diceycat
The critical clue being in the center is just a theory until all the casques are recovered but this is something that seemed to recur in the first two locations and maybe apply to some of the other proposed solves .For the Cleveland find the planter box was part of that wall if you want to call it a wall, just that the planter box itself was not depicted.Well not exactly in the center but a pretty large sized clue none the less.
I don’t think the puzzle should be that complicated to solve since the target audience was probably young males who played games like dungeons and dragons not Mensa scholars or Phd candidates ( not to say they might be interested too). I think tv shows and google earth have created a resurgence in this treasure hunt.
The problem now is that fact that alot of years have gone by and all it takes is one change in the clues to throw you off track.
I’m not here to find a casque . I’m here to solve a problem ,like finding Waldo. To me it’s mental gymnastics ,how we each see things in a different way, plus my vocabulary and knowledge of history gets expanded in the process .
Oh , and that arched window with the bars at the top of the image,( again a big guess) could represent the metal gate bars going into the botanical garden. The bars have the same style as those in the botanical garden, ( the bars in the image don’t go right up to the top and they have pointy tips ) .
MrBackstop
I finally found "stone wall's door".
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0
This is Pier 43 and a very important piece to the puzzle. First of all, I believe this arch is the inspiration for Image 1 having this shape at the top of the artwork. Secondly, our lady in Image 1 is pointing to the 4th line on her sleeve to the left and the 3rd line to her sleeve on the right.....43. Thirdly, this is the pier that was used for the police boats to pick up Alcatraz prisoners and take then to the Rock....THIS IS "stone wall's door".
MrBackstop
That's cool, I remember you mentioning your family's restaurant...I probably ate there. What was the name again?
As for the arched entries, I remember seeing those up and down the different piers so I never made the connection until I read that Pier 43 was the loading area for prisoners going to Alcatraz. And then several ideas hit me at once. One of which is the 2nd line in the verse
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
I believe this could mean something completely different from Ghirardelli or from flowers in GGP. Prisoners would be loaded onto Police boats for transfer to Alcatraz and once they crossed thru the arched entry way they could no longer breathe the sweet smell of freedom. May sound crazy to some, but that's what came to me.
Diceycat
I like everything so far. Keep it coming. Great history lesson ,wouldn’t want to pass through that door.
Diceycat
Let me know what you think of this.
The lines “ Sounds from the sky = Galileo Academy of Science and tech
“Near Ace is high= the road in Fort Mason at the SE corner called Fort Mason 11 ( Ace is an eleven)
Running north but first across= directions from the Academy to this park location Fort Mason 11 area
Go down Franklin st. And what do you see but an object of Twain’s attention ( the sequoia tree ) and right close
To that is the Giant pole ( the flag pole ) and if you were to dig by it you would have to do a “ giant step away”
Since it has asphalt surrounding it what looks like 4 feet all the way around
So it could be there some where around the pole, ( it’s a big guess )
Pretty risky spot to be doing any kind of digging here , right by the park office.
All you have to do would be sync it with the image and that is difficult.
How about the the fingers are pointing to 3rd and 4th ave or is it 4th and 5th ave?,so the location is some where between the two streets in GGP
gManTexas
Diceycat wrote::
Let me know what you think of this.
The lines “ Sounds from the sky = Galileo Academy of Science and tech
“Near Ace is high= the road in Fort Mason at the SE corner called Fort Mason 11 ( Ace is an eleven)
Running north but first across= directions from the Academy to this park location Fort Mason 11 area
Go down Franklin st. And what do you see but an object of Twain’s attention ( the sequoia tree ) and right close
To that is the Giant pole ( the flag pole ) and if you were to dig by it you would have to do a “ giant step away”
Since it has asphalt surrounding it what looks like 4 feet all the way around
So it could be there some where around the pole, ( it’s a big guess )
Pretty risky spot to be doing any kind of digging here , right by the park office.
All you have to do would be sync it with the image
There some compelling things here, but I'm weak on the Sounds from the sky being Galileo. Maybe Education (Galileo) and Justice (Alcatraz) for all to see.
Apparently (I just looked this up) Galileo was temporarily moved to Fort Mason in the 70's during renovations to the school. Unfortunately, their website is not working to research more.
Sequoia = Twain? Not what the average person would connect to Twain.
Like the flagpole.
Maybe someone knows Fort Mason. Maybe three posts are high are cannon batteries or guard posts that existed back in the day?
Anyone else have thoughts on this? Going back to Durian's work recently, we could start making an argument for Russian Hill, Lombard St. Ghiradelli, Hyde Street turntable, etc. It's all a straight shot and all within a several city block area.
That said, I still like GGP.
Diceycat
Sounds would be the students talking and sky would be Galileo ( telescope and all), it could be the education as well or the fact the prisoners are being educated
I think Twain and sequoia link are major . Last time I was in Grant National park that was one of the big attractions.
There is even a Twain sequoia tree and a pbs show about it.Other than being an author and writing a few books about Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, I couldn’t tell you anything else about him other than the Twain sequoia . Being a Canadian,Twain was not in our educational curriculum.
The thing I don’t like is it does not fit the image well at all.
GGP still looks more promising ( I think).
Diceycat
Sounds would be the students talking and sky would be
Galileo
( telescope and all), it could be the education as well or the fact the prisoners are being educated
I think Twain and sequoia link are major . Last time I was in Grant National park that was one of the big attractions.
There is even a Twain sequoia tree and a pbs show about it.Other than being an author and writing a few books about Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, I couldn’t tell you anything else about him other than the Twain sequoia . Being a Canadian,Twain was not in our educational curriculum.
The thing I don’t like is it does not fit the image well at all.
GGP still looks more promising ( I think).
Diceycat
Again another wild guess for” Not far away high posts are three” could be referring to the football posts at the Galileo Academy football field and the 3 are the 3 sections of bleachers.
Diceycat
Again another wild guess for” Not far away high posts are three” could be referring to the football posts at the
Galileo
Academy football field and the 3 are the 3 sections of bleachers.
Diceycat
Durian I agree 100% . Do you have a solution coupling the image and verse? Unfortunately many of us don’t have the book to refer to .
MrBackstop
Diceycat wrote::
Let me know what you think of this.
The lines “ Sounds from the sky = Galileo Academy of Science and tech
“Near Ace is high= the road in Fort Mason at the SE corner called Fort Mason 11 ( Ace is an eleven)
Running
north but first across= directions from the Academy to this park location Fort Mason 11 area
Go down Franklin st. And what do you see but an object of Twain’s attention ( the sequoia tree ) and right close
To that is the Giant pole ( the flag pole ) and if you were to dig by it you would have to do a “ giant step away”
Since it has asphalt surrounding it what looks like 4 feet all the way around
So it could be there some where around the pole, ( it’s a big guess )
Pretty risky spot to be doing any kind of digging here , right by the park office.
All you have to do would be sync it with the image and that is difficult.
How about the the fingers are pointing to 3rd and 4th ave or is it 4th and 5th ave?,so the location is some where between the two streets in GGP
I like your ideas here Dicey. These puzzles are incredibly built and trying to dissect them is very entertaining. After learning more and more from the vets on these boards I've learned to try and go deep into meanings of the clever and not so clever words BP used. I'll put this here for the first time:
Sounds from the sky
- Refers to the speaker towers in National Maritime Park
Near ace is high
- James Polk was the 11th President of the United States, Polk St runs into NMP
Running
north but first across
- Polk St runs North into NMP but before that it is connected to 10th St that runs across part of the city.
My solve has the casque buried in the middle of NMP. It would have been an easy area to bury a casque and it was not taken control of by the National Parks until '88.
As for her fingers, she is pointing to the 4th line on the left sleeve and 3rd on the right.....Pier 43
MrBackstop
Diceycat wrote::
Let me know what you think of this.
The lines “ Sounds from the sky =
Galileo
Academy of Science and tech
“Near Ace is high= the road in Fort Mason at the SE corner called Fort Mason 11 ( Ace is an eleven)
Running north but first across= directions from the Academy to this park location Fort Mason 11 area
Go down Franklin st. And what do you see but an object of Twain’s attention ( the sequoia tree ) and right close
To that is the Giant pole ( the flag pole ) and if you were to dig by it you would have to do a “ giant step away”
Since it has asphalt surrounding it what looks like 4 feet all the way around
So it could be there some where around the pole, ( it’s a big guess )
Pretty risky spot to be doing any kind of digging here , right by the park office.
All you have to do would be sync it with the image and that is difficult.
How about the the fingers are pointing to 3rd and 4th ave or is it 4th and 5th ave?,so the location is some where between the two streets in GGP
I like your ideas here Dicey. These puzzles are incredibly built and trying to dissect them is very entertaining. After learning more and more from the vets on these boards I've learned to try and go deep into meanings of the clever and not so clever words BP used. I'll put this here for the first time:
Sounds from the sky
- Refers to the speaker towers in National Maritime Park
Near ace is high
- James Polk was the 11th President of the United States, Polk St runs into NMP
Running north but first across
- Polk St runs North into NMP but before that it is connected to 10th St that runs across part of the city.
My solve has the casque buried in the middle of NMP. It would have been an easy area to bury a casque and it was not taken control of by the National Parks until '88.
As for her fingers, she is pointing to the 4th line on the left sleeve and 3rd on the right.....Pier 43
MrBackstop
Diceycat wrote::
Let me know what you think of this.
The lines “ Sounds from the sky = Galileo Academy of Science and tech
“Near Ace is high= the road in Fort Mason at the SE corner called Fort Mason 11 ( Ace is an eleven)
Running north but first across= directions from the Academy to this park location Fort Mason 11 area
Go down Franklin st. And what do you see but an object of Twain’s attention ( the sequoia tree ) and right close
To that is the Giant pole ( the flag pole ) and if you were to dig by it you would have to do a “ giant step away”
Since it has asphalt surrounding it what looks like 4 feet all the way around
So it could be there some where around the pole, ( it’s a big guess )
Pretty risky spot to be doing any kind of digging here , right by the park office.
All you have to do would be sync it with the image and that is difficult.
How about the the fingers are pointing to 3rd and 4th ave or is it 4th and 5th ave?,so the location is some where between the two streets in GGP
I like your ideas here Dicey. These puzzles are incredibly built and trying to dissect them is very entertaining. After learning more and more from the vets on these boards I've learned to try and go deep into meanings of the clever and not so clever words BP used. I'll put this here for the first time:
Sounds from the sky
- Refers to the speaker towers in National Maritime Park
Near ace is high
- James Polk was the 11th President of the United States, Polk St runs into NMP
Running north but first across
- Polk St runs North into NMP but before that it is connected to 10th St that runs across part of the city.
My solve has the casque buried in the middle of NMP. It would have been an easy area to bury a casque and it was not taken control of by the National Parks until '88.
As for her fingers, she is pointing to the 4th line on the left sleeve and 3rd on the right.....Pier 43
Diceycat
Durian all those links to the faces . Let me know what you think of this . Image 9 the face is that of Canadas’ glorious 1 st leader Sir John A McDonald hair, nose and all ( he was a bit of a boozer they say).
Diceycat
More thoughts here. How about Blue Playground in GGP as the final location ( looks like the area has been updated), I read he had a penchant for young children.
Well it is one of two locations, looking again at the rectangular shape in the image it could be section of the city between Larkin and VanNess with the curve at the top being the waterfront.
Diceycat
Mr. Backstop , I like that solve a lot. So the pole is that concrete tower in NMP?
The dragon looks like it could be made of stone with all those squares in there.
MrBackstop
Durian
Let's chew on this a second, considering our Russian lady...have you noticed how her head is shaped like an oval? To me this has a purpose, it is to represent the Bath House aka the Maritime Museum. I also see her garment as a robe ....think bath house.
Another thing about her index fingers, they are pointing to the 4th and 3rd lines but they (big picture) are also pointing to her sleeve cuffs. This is referencing the handcuffs the Alcatraz prisoners would have on when being transported.
MrBackstop
Diceycat wrote::
Mr. Backstop , I like that solve a lot. So the pole is that concrete tower in NMP?
The dragon looks like it could be made of stone with all those squares in there.
Exactly....as far as I'm concerned the East Speaker Tower is the Dragon in Image 1.
hxxp://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image ... b350&gid=3
MrBackstop
As far as the entry arch of Pier 43, I didn't say it was a Stone wall, it is stone wall's
door
....stone, as in, The Rock, as in Alcatraz. This was the prisoner's doorway to board the police boat.
MrBackstop
Here's why My starting point is Pier 43 and how to easily tie it to NMP.
The San Francisco Belt Railroad was a short line that served the SF waterfront. It stopped being used in the '80s after BP was there for The Secret. You can still see some of the rails on Jefferson St. The Belt went from West of Fort Mason, under the Fort in a tunnel and ran by the Maritime Museum along the waterfront and onto Jefferson toward the East.
After prisoners were processed (I believe at the Presido) they were put on a train that would go under Fort Mason, along NMP and down to Pier 43 (stone wall's door). They would then breathe their last breath of the sweet smell of Freedom and head to the Rock.
Alcatraz is as iconic as it gets. That's why this is my starting point.
MrBackstop
Giant pole - smokestack of San Francisco Pumping station #2
Giant step - East Bleachers
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca ... _Francisco
)#/media/File%3ASan_Francisco_Fire_Dept_Pumping_Station_No_2.jpg
MrBackstop
Yeah, the handcuffs are a stretch as my good friend Gman likes to say but I found it a fun possibility.
Goonie68
I will throw this into the ring, " At stone wall's door" My inturpitation of this brings me to 6101 senior center. The Senior center is a door within a stone wall, above the door is a phoenix that is one of the better match's for the dragon in the image (head) in the illustration you have a Huge # 6 in the middle of the image, you can find two # 1's and the upside down VI with a line on top and bottom ( do not resemble any numbers with attached lines on top and bottom) this could represent the letter N, In Roman numerals there is no 0, the romans used the letter N as nulla = nothing to describe the number 0 . In the image you 61 N 1. Senior Center with match of image to a visual plus the numbers in the image to confirm. With in the address you the numbers 101 which is a part of HWY 1 ( Ace) giving you a hint of the verse "Ace is high" as you approach cross over drive on the path to the casque.
Goonie68
I will throw this into the ring, " At stone wall's door" My inturpitation of this brings me to 6101
senior
center. The
Senior
center is a door within a stone wall, above the door is a phoenix that is one of the better match's for the dragon in the image (head) in the illustration you have a Huge # 6 in the middle of the image, you can find two # 1's and the upside down VI with a line on top and bottom ( do not resemble any numbers with attached lines on top and bottom) this could represent the letter N, In Roman numerals there is no 0, the romans used the letter N as nulla = nothing to describe the number 0 . In the image you 61 N 1.
Senior
Center with match of image to a visual plus the numbers in the image to confirm. With in the address you the numbers 101 which is a part of HWY 1 ( Ace) giving you a hint of the verse "Ace is high" as you approach cross over drive on the path to the casque.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
But I see plenty of things in the SF image that are unequivocally at the waterfront. Think about that for a moment.
You say "unequivocally" but the problem is that is just not true, in that every image you are using as proof, has basically been found at other places in the city.
So while you definitely have a good theory going, it is in an area that has been explored extensively. That doesn't mean you are wrong. Just before you can use terms like "unequivocally" you need to find a casque. A lot of us looked that area over hard, and then passed it by. Hopefully you will have more luck. You might see something we didn't so keep going!
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I guess what I'm asking by using the word "unequivocally," is where are the obvious items in GGP that are definitely in the hunt and obviously represented in the image. I'm looking at the two solved puzzles for examples. Each had real-life items from the hunt obviously represented in the image. For instance, in Cleveland you have the fountain, the back of the wall of the Italian Gardens, the pillars, and the pylon monument—all pretty obvious once you see them in the image. You can compare them easily to real life. In Chicago you have The Bowman, the Fountain of the Great Lakes, the street arrows/windows, and the fenceposts where the casque was found...
Where is the equivalent of The Bowman in the San Francisco image? The thing that tells us, we're looking in the right place? And I don't mean
generally
SF by
right place
. I mean part of the hunt we can see on the ground following the verses, like The Bowman. I'm talking "so obvious a five year old can see it" type stuff. The other puzzles have them. Where are they in SF? I don't see any "aha!" images of Golden Gate Park, and I think this is a very legitimate question, given how the other solved puzzles have been shown to work.
Regardless of the retrospective perceived "ease" of the Chicago and Cleveland puzzles, I think the sample size of 2 out of 12 is too small to make any assumptions about how
all
of the puzzles work.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
I guess what I'm asking by using the word "unequivocally," is where are the obvious items in GGP that are definitely in the hunt and obviously represented in the image. I'm looking at the two solved puzzles for examples. Each had real-life items from the hunt obviously represented in the image. For instance, in Cleveland you have the fountain, the back of the wall of the Italian Gardens, the pillars, and the pylon monument—all pretty obvious once you see them in the image. You can compare them easily to real life. In Chicago you have The Bowman, the Fountain of the Great Lakes, the street arrows/windows, and the fenceposts where the casque was found...
Where is the equivalent of The Bowman in the San Francisco image? The thing that tells us, we're looking in the right place? And I don't mean
generally
SF by
right place
. I mean part of the hunt we can see on the ground following the verses, like The Bowman. I'm talking "so obvious a five year old can see it" type stuff. The other puzzles have them. Where are they in SF? I don't see any "aha!" images of Golden Gate Park, and I think this is a very legitimate question, given how the other solved puzzles have been shown to work.
And that is because you are absolutely 100% Correct. There are none, because Golden Gate Park is Image 1's Water tower, or Transit Building. Unfortunately that doesn't make the rest of your theory unequivocal.
maltedfalcon
Goldengate wrote::
Durian,
If you're looking for a few visual clues that match up to GGP. Here are a few of my personal theories… I got too much sun this weekend, so I'm forgetting the many others that have been discussed extensively on this board.
a) Strawberry — Strawberry hill
b) Her crossed arms — exactly the shape as Crossover drive, which runs almost directly into Prayerbook Cross. Also nicely correlates with "but first, across” in the verse.
c) 18 squares on one cuff, 20 on the other, exactly between 18th and 20th aves. (my own theory, but nobody has told me that’s just a coincidence). If those were to interpret stairs or to count lines, downward or up, why didn't both cuffs just have 20 squares? Why different? I think that matters. I think her fingers pointing in the direction of the avenues, are further calling that out.
d) The triratna (three balls together in the shape of a triangle), which is the only symbol on her dress that to my knowledge can be definitively linked to an object in Golden Gate Park: The Chinese Pavilion. The Pavilion attracted great focus and a lot of press when it was installed in 1981 — the triratna, along with Chinese dragons is the most repeated design in the Pavilion. (my theory)
e) The upside down VI is lined up right where the shiny and new 6th street pedestrian entrance was christened in 1981. The entrance features an opening / entryway in the "stone wall" that encircles GGP. I'm not saying that's the stone wall door but it's interesting to me and seems to be a plausible indicator of what that upside down numeral means.
I know some here don't agree with some of my visual theories and I'm still not 100% it's GGP, but so far, my own visual observations combined with the hard work by others more than a decade before I happened upon the hunt three years ago, point to quite a few visual clues in GGP that are shared with the verse or image. .
I think it's okay to study patterns between the different cities, but it's also fine not to take that as canon. They're different puzzles. Different verses. Different images. Different cities, with different themes. Your question is totally valid, but if each puzzle followed the same pattern, that would make for a slightly less interesting challenge, IMO.
Last, yes the cable car hits the waterfront... it also is found many, many other places in The City
Again, I know I’m missing a bunch… time for another round of aloe!
GG, those are definitely puzzles that could resolve to those things you say, but don't rise to the kind of image that durian is asking about. I.e a straight up picture of a statue...
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said my theory was unequivocal. If you want to quote me, please do. If you want to paraphrase, please aim for accuracy...
. Don't we all agree that's a cable car? .
My apologies, I mis spoke - I meant to say specifically your pictures are not unequivical.
Absolutely not that is not a cable car.
maltedfalcon
Goldengate wrote::
Agreed for the most part... but I do think the Triratna does that. It's one for one in my mind. Picture of a triratna on her dress = dozens of triratnas in the Chinese Pavilion. Also since the Chinese Pavilion was new and well publicized, a lot of eyes were drawn to those symbols in the early 80s.
I would agree if there were multiple images on the dress that matched symbols on the pavilion.
Just under the Triratna is a symbol that is found on the Elevator at portsmouth square. It goes up/down to the parking garage.
and that being said there is a Triratna on a sign across the street from portsmouth square that is a dead ringer for the one on the dress.
(at least there was way back when I was investigating v6 with image 1)
Thats two for two, plus others.
It is an extremely common symbol, -right up there with the swirl under the rose. So no I don't think a 1 for 1 match of a common shape means anything .
maltedfalcon
yep dragons everywhere,
the best match I've seen and it is admittedly not really a good match
are the lamppost lanterns around Portsmouth square (and china town)
no it was not state farm, it was a jewelry store if I recall correctly.
they also had ying-yangs on display but they were not part of the sign.
and Portsmouth square also had the up/down and it has a big RLS monument.
its also famously where you can find the old keeping there eyes on the young playing.
Also on the dress is a triangle next to a square, portsmouth was famous as part of the triangle trade. (they built the ships)
and then the square, obviously.
So Triangle-Square = Portsmouth Square...
Seriously I could go on all morning....
but even with all those and many more, it was a horrible forced match. as is the pavilion.
Diceycat
More wild guesses 1: those blue squares represent stone , so the cuffs represent walls then you get “ stone walls” and the clasped hands could represent something “like your under arrest come with me and grabbing them by the arm”. Long arm of the law.Could also represent friendship.
2: the area above the hands with the dragons head inside represents the geographical location of some of the clues . The Roman numerals 1,2,3 represent the 1st , 2nd and 3rd streets south of the ghiradelli between Polk on the left side and Van Ness being on the right side ,of image.
The names of those three streets are North Point, Francisco, and Bay. Could those words get you pointing in the right direction? Something like this “Point North Francisco Bay “ or some other combination . There is a Black Point in Fort Mason park.How about the dragons nose or mouth trying to take a bite out of Van Ness and pointing towards Fort Mason park.
3: looking at the Burton statue in the park ( via google earth),it almost looks like the watch with the table , the only problem here is that it was dedicated in 1991, was erected then? Or was there something else there in 1980?
4: looking at all those strange symbols along the lower edges of the rectangle I thought they might be found in some of those glass panels of the Fort Mason Chapel across the street from the flag pole but could not find a close match ( unless they have been replaced since)
maltedfalcon
Diceycat wrote::
3: looking at the Burton statue in the park ( via google earth),it almost looks like the watch with the table , the only problem here is that it was dedicated in 1991, was erected then? Or was there something else there in 1980?
To answer you question, no there was a path and a bush there.
Goonie68
Visual confirmation with in the image that relates to GGP. JFK rock face, Lincoln face, MLK face , All of these faces depicted in the image run through GGP. I would say that this pretty much puts image, and physical visual (street names) in GGP. I don't know of any of these 3 streets outside the park that can be connected other then GGP.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Visual confirmation with in the image that relates to GGP. JFK rock face, Lincoln face, MLK face , All of these faces depicted in the image run through GGP. I would say that this pretty much puts image, and physical visual (street names) in GGP. I don't know of any of these 3 streets outside the park that can be connected other then GGP.
MLK blvd in goldengate park cannot be part of the hunt as it wasn't named that until 1983.
however JFK definitely fits the image match criteria that Durian was asking for.
FYI your image link didnt work.
Goonie68
Ok then take out the MLK and you are left with JFK and Lincoln, that still leaves two streets in the park that I believe connects to GGP and image. I guess the question is What are these images and who do you think they are? Clearly one is a face or is it just a random rock image? I guess once we can get past what they are then this puzzle can take a positive direction. Thoughts?
gManTexas
MrSeabass wrote::
Those 3 faces do not exist.
What then?
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
MLK blvd in goldengate park cannot be part of the hunt as it wasn't named that until 1983.
however JFK definitely fits the image match criteria that Durian was asking for.
FYI your image link didnt work.
I have a map AAA from 1978 (which I have posted on this forum) It shows the street MLK that runs through GGP as it is now. So from the map it was named before 1983.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
So none of you think a compass pointing north—with a cable car bell on top—paired with the lines "Sounds from the sky near ace is high" and along with multiple other visual references to cable cars and a cable car turnaround isn't a stronger street reference (North Point Street) than faces which nobody can agree belong to Lincoln, JFK, Fred Flinstone, or nobody at all?
LOL, isolated like that it sure seems obvious. the trouble is, it is not isolated is it?
your assumption is simply there isn't a better match for the "cable car", Table top, watch...etc.
Maybe you are correct, but lets take the turntable. - not the right color, not the right shape (yes its round,) but there is a lip and a border, - also there is something in the middle (under the watch) almost like the watch is sitting on something.
so out side of the turntable and the table top are circular. [and they both have the word table
] they do not match. There are other places in the city that do.
so yes, I see the similarities, but nothing rises to the level of OMG! thats it!
and there are much much better pairings for Sounds from the sky...
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I have a map AAA from 1978 (which I have posted on this forum) It shows the street MLK that runs through GGP as it is now. So from the map it was named before 1983.
That is totally weird...
maltedfalcon
Not doubting you,
just weird.
maybe it was unnofficial before and official after... that would make sense
post the print date/map legend/publisher info
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Sorry 1979 map.
Ah no -copyright 1979
print date
Revision C May 1984 -so an updated map.
Goonie68
Ok, good catch, but Like I said take out MLK and you are still left with JFK (IMO) and the Rose (Rose Garden) touches the face.....So to me this links GGP.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Ok, good catch, but Like I said take out MLK and you are still left with JFK (IMO) and the Rose (Rose Garden) touches the face.....So to me this links GGP.
I can't argue with any of those but I will ask, if golden gate park is the finish and not the start, what in the image is the starting point.
ie the water tower, the transit building, city hall, the land near the window, the castillo, Fort Sumter, etc...
catherwood
all this talk about faces always brings me back to the larger face on the left of center. Rather than being a symbolic match for the name of something, that feature is (or was) visible on the rock wall opposite the Cliff House. Priess took a picture of an area, gave the pic to JP, and the image appears in the montage painting. This is not an abstract connecting but is a visual confirmer for the area. Maybe it is nowhere near the final treasure site, but surely it is a marker along one path to it.
I have posted the comparison pics elsewhere, grabbed off the internet from someone's vacation photos but without a year for when they were taken (prior to 2011). I have since returned to the spot myself and can say that the hillside has eroded. I can identify the place where the face used to be, but the features have melted. I can imagine what it must have looked like without decades of weathering, and I assume it was an exact match back then.
Call it a confirmer for the Great Highway, use it as an approach to Golden Gate Park's west entrance, or just dismiss it as general San Francisco Bay Area scenery. Whatever. I still think of that specific "face" feature in the hillside as a better use of the painting than abstract symbolism of dubious silhouettes.
I once thought about using the gated arch in the painting to represent* either the Sutro Baths (which might have had such a doorway at one time in history) or a doorway-shaped hole which exists in the rocks of the Farallon Islands** out past Seal Rocks. Start out in the ocean (at the top of the page), work your way inland (past the "faces"), and end at GGP (in the middle of the page). It was an imaginary path.
*represent = similar to = symbolic of... all phrases I hate in riddles and puzzles.
**good image at
https://www.oceanicsociety.org/whale-watching/farallons
scroll down to photo by Roger Harris.
catherwood
all this talk about faces always brings me back to the larger face on the left of center. Rather than being a symbolic match for the name of something, that feature is (or was) visible on the rock wall opposite the Cliff House. Priess took a picture of an area, gave the pic to JP, and the image appears in the montage painting. This is not an abstract connecting but is a visual confirmer for the area. Maybe it is nowhere near the final treasure site, but surely it is a marker along one path to it.
I have posted the comparison pics elsewhere, grabbed off the internet from someone's vacation photos but without a year for when they were taken (prior to 2011). I have since returned to the spot myself and can say that the hillside has eroded. I can identify the place where the face used to be, but the features have melted. I can imagine what it must have looked like without decades of weathering, and I assume it was an exact match back then.
Call it a confirmer for the Great Highway, use it as an approach to Golden Gate Park's west entrance, or just dismiss it as general San Francisco Bay Area scenery. Whatever. I still think of that specific "face" feature in the hillside as a better use of the painting than abstract symbolism of dubious silhouettes.
I once thought about using the gated arch in the painting to represent* either the
Sutro
Baths (which might have had such a doorway at one time in history) or a doorway-shaped hole which exists in the rocks of the Farallon Islands** out past Seal Rocks. Start out in the ocean (at the top of the page), work your way inland (past the "faces"), and end at GGP (in the middle of the page). It was an imaginary path.
*represent = similar to = symbolic of... all phrases I hate in riddles and puzzles.
**good image at
https://www.oceanicsociety.org/whale-watching/farallons
scroll down to photo by Roger Harris.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
I can't argue with any of those but I will ask, if golden gate park is the finish and not the start, what in the image is the starting point.
ie the water tower, the transit building, city hall, the land near the window, the castillo, Fort Sumter, etc...
The SF image does not have any buildings or structures in the image, which makes it tough to attach a structure to starting point from the image. The "cable car" under the table could suggest that this is the Iconic symbol of the city that we look in. IMO looking at the image and deciding through the clues, that GGP is a point of interest, seeing the dragon's head (possibly the start) and the resemblance to the Phoenix above the "stone wall's door" at the senior center gives me a starting point. To tie the senior center to the next line in the Verse "the air smells sweet" to me this is Spreckles lake (sugar company) which now takes you to JFK. As you make your way to JFK the road you walk right into the next verse "not far away high posts are three" Sutro Towers are perfectly seen as you step on JFK. I do believe that the water tower in Cleveland (downtown area) is miles away from the Cultural Gardens, not sure you can see the tower from there? So the Cable car is almost like the water tower in Cleveland, miles away and in the downtown area, both parks are a bit far from the land marks. IMO
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
I can't argue with any of those but I will ask, if golden gate park is the finish and not the start, what in the image is the starting point.
ie the water tower, the transit building, city hall, the land near the window, the castillo, Fort Sumter, etc...
The SF image does not have any buildings or structures in the image, which makes it tough to attach a structure to starting point from the image. The "cable car" under the table could suggest that this is the Iconic symbol of the city that we look in. IMO looking at the image and deciding through the clues, that GGP is a point of interest, seeing the dragon's head (possibly the start) and the resemblance to the Phoenix above the "stone wall's door" at the senior center gives me a starting point. To tie the senior center to the next line in the Verse "the air smells sweet" to me this is Spreckles lake (sugar company) which now takes you to JFK. As you make your way to JFK the road you walk right into the next verse "not far away high posts are three"
Sutro
Towers are perfectly seen as you step on JFK. I do believe that the water tower in Cleveland (downtown area) is miles away from the Cultural Gardens, not sure you can see the tower from there? So the Cable car is almost like the water tower in Cleveland, miles away and in the downtown area, both parks are a bit far from the land marks. IMO
maltedfalcon
catherwood wrote::
all this talk about faces always brings me back to the larger face on the left of center. Rather than being a symbolic match for the name of something, that feature is (or was) visible on the rock wall opposite the Cliff House. Priess took a picture of an area, gave the pic to JP, and the image appears in the montage painting. This is not an abstract connecting but is a visual confirmer for the area. Maybe it is nowhere near the final treasure site, but surely it is a marker along one path to it.
I have posted the comparison pics elsewhere, grabbed off the internet from someone's vacation photos but without a year for when they were taken (prior to 2011). I have since returned to the spot myself and can say that the hillside has eroded. I can identify the place where the face used to be, but the features have melted. I can imagine what it must have looked like without decades of weathering, and I assume it was an exact match back then.
Call it a confirmer for the Great Highway, use it as an approach to Golden Gate Park's west entrance, or just dismiss it as general San Francisco Bay Area scenery. Whatever. I still think of that specific "face" feature in the hillside as a better use of the painting than abstract symbolism of dubious silhouettes.
I once thought about using the gated arch in the painting to represent* either the Sutro Baths (which might have had such a doorway at one time in history) or a doorway-shaped hole which exists in the rocks of the Farallon Islands** out past Seal Rocks. Start out in the ocean (at the top of the page), work your way inland (past the "faces"), and end at GGP (in the middle of the page). It was an imaginary path.
*represent = similar to = symbolic of... all phrases I hate in riddles and puzzles.
**good image at
https://www.oceanicsociety.org/whale-watching/farallons
scroll down to photo by Roger Harris.
I would love to see more about this face! I don't think I ever saw your comparison before. if you can find your old posts I would love to read/see them.
maltedfalcon
catherwood wrote::
all this talk about faces always brings me back to the larger face on the left of center. Rather than being a symbolic match for the name of something, that feature is (or was) visible on the rock wall opposite the Cliff House. Priess took a picture of an area, gave the pic to JP, and the image appears in the montage painting. This is not an abstract connecting but is a visual confirmer for the area. Maybe it is nowhere near the final treasure site, but surely it is a marker along one path to it.
I have posted the comparison pics elsewhere, grabbed off the internet from someone's vacation photos but without a year for when they were taken (prior to 2011). I have since returned to the spot myself and can say that the hillside has eroded. I can identify the place where the face used to be, but the features have melted. I can imagine what it must have looked like without decades of weathering, and I assume it was an exact match back then.
Call it a confirmer for the Great Highway, use it as an approach to Golden Gate Park's west entrance, or just dismiss it as general San Francisco Bay Area scenery. Whatever. I still think of that specific "face" feature in the hillside as a better use of the painting than abstract symbolism of dubious silhouettes.
I once thought about using the gated arch in the painting to represent* either the
Sutro
Baths (which might have had such a doorway at one time in history) or a doorway-shaped hole which exists in the rocks of the Farallon Islands** out past Seal Rocks. Start out in the ocean (at the top of the page), work your way inland (past the "faces"), and end at GGP (in the middle of the page). It was an imaginary path.
*represent = similar to = symbolic of... all phrases I hate in riddles and puzzles.
**good image at
https://www.oceanicsociety.org/whale-watching/farallons
scroll down to photo by Roger Harris.
I would love to see more about this face! I don't think I ever saw your comparison before. if you can find your old posts I would love to read/see them.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I do believe that the water tower in Cleveland (downtown area) is miles away from the Cultural Gardens, not sure you can see the tower from there? So the Cable car is almost like the water tower in Cleveland, miles away and in the downtown area, both parks are a bit far from the land marks. IMO
yes that is true, In Chicago and in Cleveland a methodology to get from the landmark to the park was included in the image.
this holds true for Milwaukee, Boston, St Augustine, Charleston, New Orleans and New York, In Roanoke, the method is in the verse, In Montreal, it is still up in the air.
The trouble is we only find the methodology works in SF if the landmark is golden gate park.
and we have to keep in mind that SF was supposed to be simple, so a good guess is it would follow the method of other simple ones, (Chicago/Cleveland)
cnllreds
maltedfalcon wrote::
I can't argue with any of those but I will ask, if golden gate park is the finish and not the start, what in the image is the starting point.
ie the water tower, the transit building, city hall, the land near the window, the castillo, Fort Sumter, etc...
Start is at the top of the image...which I think is at the top of the rock wall of Huntington Falls...what else do you think those rock walls represent?
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
yes that is true, In Chicago and in Cleveland a methodology to get from the landmark to the park was included in the image.
this holds true for Milwaukee, Boston, St Augustine, Charleston, New Orleans and New York, In Roanoke, the method is in the verse, In Montreal, it is still up in the air.
The trouble is we only find the methodology works in SF if the landmark is golden gate park.
and we have to keep in mind that SF was supposed to be simple, so a good guess is it would follow the method of other simple ones, (Chicago/Cleveland)
Not so sure on the simple part LOL , So Chicago for instance would be Water tower to Bowman to loop. SF could be Cable car to Dragon's head to....?
erexere
Is it possible that the verse for Chicago might've been attempted as a fit for SF? Where M and B are set in stone could've been perceived as rails set into the streets. Checking routes M or B could've been one of the challenges of applying the wrong verse to an image. Anyone agree/disagree?
maltedfalcon
maybe if M&B were set in asphalt
maltedfalcon
Well in Chicago Vermeers girl with pearl earring is a horrible match , she has a pearl earring, not a dangly one. she is facing the other way and looking back over her shoulder, the background is black. really not much of a match.
Compared to Grant on the 50$ bill...
Also grant points us to Grant park
In cleveland it looks like he based the image on several styles of equestrian statue. but c'mon say it with me. Rockefeller Centaur (a pun a new yorker couldn't resist) points us to Rockefeller Park
In Chicago you start where you can match the view of the water tower and travel in the direction the portrait is looking N. Michigan Ave (heading left or south) go until you see something in the image and that is your sign to turn.
so basically you go until you see the bowman and turn into grant park.
In Cleveland you start where you can see the transit tower. its a square that circles counter clockwise. you have to follow the turns but only one street goes straight off the square, euclid, all the others you have to turn onto.
Now you go until you see something in the image, and that is Triangle Square, a Big sign on the corner of Ford (the logo was the same triangle that is in the picture, Turn left (thats the way the triangle points) and you are on ford ave.
Ford flows onto East ave . East ave (no longer does) but in 1980 drove right to the Columns.
so basically the shown methodology is a landmark, a path that only has turnoffs when shown by an image. to a park. Besides the two found casques this method has been shown to work hypothetically in most of the other cities.
As far as "DaVinci" glow - yes DaVinci is credited with coming up with this 500 years ago, but it wasn't until the late 1990s and early 2000's when people started writing articles about it that it became a thing that the average person would have had a chance to read about, remember these puzzles were created to be solved in the days before the internet. It's a reach... especially when there are so many other goood things we can associate with the spheres.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
[
Not so sure on the simple part LOL , So Chicago for instance would be Water tower to Bowman to loop. SF could be Cable car to Dragon's head to....?
Technically it entered the loop once it crossed the DuSable Bridge so water tower (a specific spot) to the bowman (another specific spot)
If SF is the Cable Car, - which cable car (a specific spot) ? and what specific spot is the Dragon's head?
JoshCornell
is dragons head on goonies dragon at the senior center? otherwise i know the answer lol. i always thought the dragon was a combo of 3 dragons he takes you by in the puzzle.
JamesV
JamesV wrote::
Quick follow-up to the previous post on St.Mary's square...apparently there's also a "White House" right across the street from the statue that WhiteRabbit found. It looks to be a public parking garage now, but it's apparently also some kind of historic SF landmark which might further suggest an I1/V6 pairing. Link:
hxxp://thewhitehousegaragesf.com
Also: just learned that Title 8 of the US code deals with the role of aliens and nationality in the United States, and Chapter 8 of this code specifically deals with Chinese immigrants. No joke...this is officially titled as "The Cooly Trade".
Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_8_o ... tates_Code
Could the Chinese Exclusion Act, enacted in 1882 and repealed in 1943, possible be the inspiration for the couplet "Or on the eighth a scene / Where law defended"? Again, unsure if there's any historical markers or similar nearby, but it seems to fit well with both I1 and the immigration theme.
Also interesting: The adjacent park from St. Mary's, the Union Square shopping area, was built up over a sand dune... (Link:
hxxp://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/arti ... 731306.php
)
Self-bump, I1/V6.
Just wanted to share this interesting article which touches on Chinese immigration & the earliest civil rights laws:
https://hoodline.com/2015/08/yick-wo-an ... late-1800s
Unknown if this case, or any of these similar ones, might possibly fit into an I1/V6 interpretation as "a scene where law defended"? (
hxxp://teachingresources.atlas.illinois ... ce_2_4.pdf
)
If so, I'd assume there'd probably have to be a historical plaque, marker or something similar nearby, preferably within walking distance of Chinatown.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
Technically it entered the loop once it crossed the DuSable Bridge so water tower (a specific spot) to the bowman (another specific spot)
If SF is the Cable Car, - which cable car (a specific spot) ? and what specific spot is the Dragon's head?
The specific spot would be the start of California street where the California Cable Car line starts. It runs west, once the line stops you continue down California street to you reach Lincoln park(face in the illustration IMO) then you use 38th ave(38 blocks in the sleeve) to get you to the park, walk west then you see the Senior Center with the Dragon, the verse starts there.
California street, you have a Cable car line (iconic image) The colors of the dress are blue and gold (California's official colors) California street
Along California street you pass a few possible illustration images, St. Marys Cathedral church ( California and Grant) Roman numerals on the clock, across the street is the Cathay House Restaurant (which is a land mark to china town) On the building there are Two Yin and Yang plaques(on the dress), continue down California street you reach 11th ave and on the corner is a house with a dome roof, (Moons)
The stretch of California street is under 6 miles. I believe Cleveland was about 7 miles from Tower to garden.
Diceycat
The final location. Since many believe as I do that the final resting spot is somehow illustrated close to the center in the images this is the location of the casque ( at least in my mind).
That thing that looks like a berry under the hands is a pine cone which represents the pine cone of a giant sequoia so the giant sequoia is the giant pole and all you have to do is one giant step away from the tree to find the casque.
I feel certain that Twain’s attention was the giant sequoia.
Now is the tree in GGP or the Maritime park? It’s probably the tallest tree or the only tree close by using the other clues for location.
JoshCornell
if anything, a pinecone would point you to the McLaren statue...not a unknown sequoia tree...
Diceycat
There is a lone sequoia just north of the east side speaker in NMP and as far as GGP goes I would guess the tallest one just east of the music concourse area
JoshCornell
not a consistent (or good) use of pole...id keep trying...
Diceycat
Let me further refine the location if it is located in GGP it will be the sequoia between the 3 rd and 4th ave ( if those are the streets the fingers are pointing to. To me the fingers are pointing to a region in between let’s say the 3rd ave. So he could be referencing below 3rd ave or between 3rd and 4 th ave.). The tree might be in that memorial garden east of the music concourse by the tallest sequoia or a bit further east of that . In the images the fingers point to the general location it seems
JoshCornell
fingers point in 2 totally opposite directions. in relation to ggp they most definitely point to where hwy 1 enters and exits the park, without question.
erexere
Do the pointing fingers seem to indicate "3" and "4" by counting the blocks? That may develop interest in the intersection of 34th street at GGP. Is/was that an important streetcar stop for any reason?
Diceycat
This would possibly be the final location in GGP. My refined guess
The shapes (outlines),the fingers make on the arm indicate features in GGP. On the right side is the outline of Stow Lake , on the left side is the outline of Spreckles lake and that dark area in the center where the two hands cross is one of two possibilities either Lindley Meadow or West Hellman Hollow ( they hold concerts here in West Hellman ,as well ,might have something to do with sounds from the sky). Someone was saying there was at one time a giant pole at Lindley Meadow and now gone .
Diceycat
That’s it 34 th street intersecting with Lindley Meadow. Can anyone produce a photo of that tall pole that stood here and it’s precise location ? Or is there any other tall sequoia at this crosssection of 34 and Lindley? Bingo! That’s it the casque was a giant step away from the” Godess of the forest”that big sequoia tree stump like the one in Grant national park that is named after Twain!!!
maltedfalcon
Diceycat wrote::
That’s it 34 th street intersecting with Lindley Meadow. Can anyone produce a photo of that tall pole that stood here and it’s precise location ? Or is there any other tall sequoia at this crosssection of 34 and Lindley? Bingo! That’s it the casque was a giant step away from the” Godess of the forest”that big sequoia tree stump like the one in Grant national park that is named after Twain!!!
The one place in SF I know the casque is not, is one giant step away from "The Goddess of the Forest" in any direction.
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
The one place in SF I know the casque is not, is one giant step away from "The Goddess of the Forest" in any direction.
LOL, man you tried so hard, I respect that.
erexere
SF is way out of hand. So many people with different views and attempts at different locations, and so few things actually known for certain.
This is one of those cities that seems harder on several levels. Twain would be proud...
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
SF is way out of hand. So many people with different views and attempts at different locations, and so few things actually known for certain.
This is one of those cities that seems harder on several levels. Twain would be proud...
You know, before this board turned into a shitshow, I was thinking that we should pool our resources and have a casque of the month club. Everyone focus on one location and solve it. Get some able bodied volunteers to dig.
But alas, let's hand the mic to Josh...
maltedfalcon
erexere wrote::
SF is way out of hand. So many people with different views and attempts at different locations, and so few things actually known for certain.
This is one of those cities that seems harder on several levels. Twain would be proud...
and by value/difficulty scale, should be in the top 3 of easiest.
erexere
I read somewhere that people would often get off at 34th street and walk up to the Legion of Honor. That's the area that I feel holds the most potential. The endgame of that area seems to have presented more difficulty than expected.
gManTexas
erexere wrote::
I read somewhere that people would often get off at 34th street and walk up to the Legion of Honor. That's the area that I feel holds the most potential. The endgame of that area seems to have presented more difficulty than expected.
Get off of what? A bus? The street cars have not run to GGP for a long time.
JoshCornell
the funny thing is that there is only one twain clue that works. the others all do not work. im very surprised im only one whos picked up on it, and you know what i know it is. lol
clarkrock7
Why is everyone set on the verse matchup with this image? I agree that the image suggests SF, but all of the stuff i've read on here just seems a stretch to fit the verse. Also, it seems like the symbols on the dress, both the ones on the horizontal that someone compared to topographical symbols and the ones below, some roman numerals, letters, symbols? all seem to be more than random decoration. Maybe there is something there that could help narrow things down a bit.
maltedfalcon
clarkrock7 wrote::
Why is everyone set on the verse matchup with this image? I agree that the image suggests SF, but all of the stuff i've read on here just seems a stretch to fit the verse. Also, it seems like the symbols on the dress, both the ones on the horizontal that someone compared to topographical symbols and the ones below, some roman numerals, letters, symbols? all seem to be more than random decoration. Maybe there is something there that could help narrow things down a bit.
A great question!
and the answer is because of all the other verses. Obviously you can't just look at one verse So 12 verses, 12 cities/images, 2 of each are already used.
leaving 10/10
so if you want to try a different verse say verse 6 with image 1- are you also suggesting that 7 goes with charleston? cause currently 6 seems to go with charleston(image2)
but if 7 is not SF then maybe it does belong with new orleans, which would free up verse 2 - so does 2 go with 2?
you begin to see the picture.
but that of course is not a reason to not try other verses.
Also keep in mind that what you see on Q4T or the wiki or Facebook, is just the tip of the iceberg
many people are working and have ideas and are trying things that never ever get posted.
If you are looking for the method that undeniably links an image with a verse- I am sure there is one, just nobody has ever figured it out - there are lots of theories that kind of work, work sometimes, or even work most of the time, but nothing that works all the time. It would be great if you could figure that out!
Diceycat
maltedfalcon wrote::
The one place in SF I know the casque is not, is one giant step away from "The Goddess of the Forest" in any direction.
So you dug or even probed 3 feet down all the way around this tree 3 to 5 feet away from the base? How do you define a giant step? Just curious but how many days did it take you to do that?
JoshCornell
he dug all around it
MrBackstop
MrBackstop wrote::
https://sfmta.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Powell-Cable-Cars/G0000eEsx6rmQeQ0/I0000A7H3WSfKXrk/C00001T4YTtxFMnU
I had someone ask me about what I thought the giant pole and giant step were and I believe this photo shows clearly what I'm talking about.
Giant pole - smokestack from SF Pumping Station #2
Giant step - East bleachers of the Maritime Museum
This photo is from '62 and I have seen other photos from '75 that have the smokestack. I realize it was not around in some photos from the '90s. Do any locals know when that stack got taken down? Or perhaps it went down in '89?
Spiritr
ah, finally a place where I can post a reply, I'm new here, still learning, I live in SF btw.
reason I discovered this Secret book was by random to this guy's Reddit page which he claim he and his friend have found the box yet he refuse to answer any questions, LOL. so yea, that's how I started....
so, anybody here have a Congress Library card that can pull out the maps and share here?
Spiritr
erexere wrote::
I read somewhere that people would often get off at 34th street and walk up to the Legion of Honor. That's the area that I feel holds the most potential. The endgame of that area seems to have presented more difficulty than expected.
.......so that's why there's a 38 over the hair? hahaha, nice find
Diceycat
Since Maltedfalcon dug or probed extensively around the area of the goddess of the forest then tell me what you think of the shape of the piece of land just to the immediate south of Sprekels lake , this little island of land has the same shape as the black space made by the hands ( wrists),where they cross over in the middle, could it be in this location was it checked out as well ( no one is saying where the goddess of the forests exact location was)
catherwood
Diceycat wrote::
(no one is saying where the goddess of the forests exact location was)
Research.
The location was certainly pinpointed and discussed years ago when maltedfalcon did his dig (with permission). I tried a quick Google search to see how deep the details are, and instead I found yet another discussion forum with yet another solve --("somewhere near Strawberry Hill by Stow Lake" if you're curious, see tripadvisor.com and a January 2018 thread) -- and right there it says the Goddess was in Lindley Meadow. I haven't been there myself, but my understanding is that there is still a stump or a cement base or at least some residue which was left behind when the totem pole sculpture was removed.
Oh, here's another thing Google led me to... a description of the dig TEN years ago.
hxxp://www.sparkletack.com/2008/06/11/a ... francisco/
Spiritr
are you talking about the thing right underneath where the hand of the women crossover? that place over the wiki of pbwork called "strawberry"?
Spiritr
ok, since I'm new here( but I've lived in the inner Richmond for the past 24 years fyi. )
what exactly make you guys so sure that it's in GGP? give me something that make sense please. I wanted to convince myself as well, but ..... what exactly you see that make it so sure it's in Golden Gate Park?
Matter of fact, what makes you think image 1 even refers to San Francisco to begin with?
Diceycat
Spiritr wrote::
are you talking about the thing right underneath where the hand of the women crossover? that place over the wiki of pbwork called "strawberry"?
Im calling the strawberry looking thing under wrists the representation of a giant sequoia pinecone.
The black space between the wrists is in the same shape as the small island of land right beside south side of Sprekels lake . Might be coincidence but there’s only 3 tall trees on this piece of land (“ high posts are 3 “maybe , just a thought). Maybe some local could poke around the giant sequoia on this piece of land.
maltedfalcon
Diceycat wrote::
So you dug or even probed 3 feet down all the way around this tree 3 to 5 feet away from the base? How do you define a giant step? Just curious but how many days did it take you to do that?
over a period of 3 months, I dug the entire circumference from the cement out 5+ feet (minimum 5 feet) some directions farther. depth 4 feet and then probed with a soil probe (in all directions) . I figured out the weight of the dirt (mostly sand) I moved once, it was in excess of 2 tons.
I had help (friends, family, at times even the groundskeepers came to dig.)
I also searched directly in front of it out about 40 feet probing (not digging) just in case the giant step was actually a step taken by the goddess of the forest, (i figured out how long her legs were and did the math.)
There were two cast iron irrigation pipes. near but they were about 100 years old but in front about 5 feet from the plinth runs a east/west pvc irrigation pipe set at a depth of 4 feet.
My concern was the trencher for this pipe ran right through the casque.
So I found the trencher that had been used the next time they used it I dropped a flower pot into the trench in front of it. I measured how far the pieces of the flower pot were displaced laterally and then I went back and dug there left and right along the pipe. looking for pieces, -no pieces found.
most importantly - there are no images in the picture that confirm that as the location, while it fits the verse perfectly, (with the exception of a real good twain reference- which is why I dug completely around it) . but a good verse fit is not enough as we see from Chicago and Cleveland, there should be actual things in the image you see from the casque site or at least right nearby, (Chicago, fence, fixture) (cleveland, wall, stones, fountain columns)
In lindley meadow there is zilch.
Spiritr
here's the part I cut from a 1975 map,
and here's something I suggested that would look more like it, it even match the side and the top as will.....
Diceycat
Maltedfalcon have you considered the small island of land beside the south side of Sprekels lake since it’s a close match for the outline of the black space between the wrists ( in the middle) in the image?
Spiritr
Diceycat wrote::
Maltedfalcon have you considered the small island of land beside the south side of Sprekels lake since it’s a close match for the outline of the black space between the wrists ( in the middle) in the image?
37.769855, -122.494952 ? that's a HUGE area
Spiritr
I live at 32nd, while the sun still up, let me go take a walk
maltedfalcon
Diceycat wrote::
Maltedfalcon have you considered the small island of land beside the south side of Sprekels lake since it’s a close match for the outline of the black space between the wrists ( in the middle) in the image?
no I didnt
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
37.769855, -122.494952 ? that's a HUGE area
not sure where you got those values but... it's safe to figure that the sixth decimal place in one decimal degree has 111,111/10^6 = about 1/9 meter = about 4 inches of precision.
or basically the size of the casque...
Spiritr
those are just for you to copy and paste so google can pin point the exact location you were saying, and I'm trying to confirm if that's the area you're referring
ok, fine, i'll do this, 37°46'11.5"N 122°29'41.8"W , is this the area?
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
those are just for you to copy and paste so google can pin point the exact location you were saying, and I'm trying to confirm if that's the area you're referring
ok, fine, i'll do this, 37°46'11.5"N 122°29'41.8"W , is this the area?
that is the area diceycat asked about
and no I have not looked there at all other then when I was looking everywhere for a giant pole.
I did check out the polo grounds just south of there though and the angling pool (fishing poles?) LOL
Spiritr
I'm back, finally got to see what you're talking about , the little square that has grass on it right? I was there right on time, the minute I walk back to JFK the sprinkler start watering the lawn all at once, LOL
it was ....wood am I correct? it's a wood statue right? pole shape
Diceycat
Spiritr wrote::
I'm back, finally got to see what you're talking about , the little square that has grass on it right? I was there right on time, the minute I walk back to JFK the sprinkler start watering the lawn all at once, LOL
it was ....wood am I correct? it's a wood statue right? pole shape
It’s that small piece of land that splits JFK drive in two beside south side of Spreckels lake . I’m thinking it could be a giant step away from a giant sequoia ( giant pole),if one is growing in this section of land ( not sure which tree is a giant sequoia off of google). There are other possible locations that match the verses better but not so much the image such as Blue Playground , looks like the playground has been updated,(Twain liked children), or 37 degrees 46 ‘ 21” N , 122 degrees 28’ 08” W or 37degrees46’ 21”N , 122 degrees 28’ 05” W if you like the sequoia theory. It’s a challenge for sure. You could also say Koret playground could be the final spot by the giant pole “maybe”, but the image doesn’t fit the location so it’s a guess for now.
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
I'm back, finally got to see what you're talking about , the little square that has grass on it right? I was there right on time, the minute I walk back to JFK the sprinkler start watering the lawn all at once, LOL
it was ....wood am I correct? it's a wood statue right? pole shape
if you are talking about the goddess base
it is cement square about 3 feet tall and 8 feet accross with a circular depression in the top that filled with dirt and might/mightnot have grass growing. depending on how dry it got
the statue was a totem pole carved during the pacific pan exposition from a single redwood sequoia tree
it was orginally quite tall but the wood set in the inset in the cement and as it rained it filled with water and did not drain so every couple years they would lift the totem up with a crane and chainsaw off the bottom and set it back down
by the 80s it was 1/2 the size it started at, and soon after was entirely taken down. (the remains are in a museum in downtown SF.)
Spiritr
Twain like money, gold, or silver. Literature maybe
First of all, I think the key is keep it simple, then put yourself in 1980, no internet, no Wikipedia, only source of info someone could obtain was first and for sure the image, and then, maps, signature buildings or mounuments, The clues or message are very straight forward, if you have to spend hours looking over Wikipedia or history of a certain name or people, you are playing it wrong. And the location! I guaranteed you it’s so precise and accurate if you dig more than 2 times in a same location that means you still haven’t figured it out yet! The reason why the Chicago one was found is because 1. They got 80% of the puzzles right, 2, the kid actually made a phone call to Preiss and got the glue in that conversation! But the exact locations was in the verse and in the image already, so percise If you have a smartphone today it will lead you stand right on top of it! So is the one in Cleveland. I will respect all suggestions until it’s found. That’s how I see it, if you want to see certain part of the park , I don’t have any problems going in or even give you a video footage anyway you like, I have drone I have go pro, like I said I love right next to the park, if I have time, I don’t mind.
Spiritr
for, for the "forest goddess" , if we are talking about this one:
enough said, I'm all in for this one! just by looking at that thing on top of her head I would say it's definitely a clue
but if you're talking about this one:
then I will say forget it, I simply don't think it connects at all....
catherwood
Spiritr wrote::
here's the part I cut from a 1975 map,
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/myCwd ... 20-h974-rw
and here's something I suggested that would look more like it, it even match the side and the top as will.....
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/TXEJ5 ... 20-h974-rw
Unknown:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/OmekU ... 0-h1776-rw
Your embedded code wasn't showing anything for me, just the word "image", so I removed the tags and it still won't let me access them. It's probably a user security thing, oh well. Same problem with the other link in the last post.
I think you are trying to link to something only you can see on your computer or within a private account.
Spiritr
oh no....really? I did made it public tho......emmm why? it's nothing major but see if this help
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14vUXWL ... S0Y4J/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11AE6uU ... XF44c/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M2SY-m ... gPsmz/view
let me know if still not showing......
now, I think, I am only 2 steps away for my first dig, I'm just missing 2 key elements right now
1. a camera man
2. tools to dig
Tamaari
The small piece of land that splits JFK by Sprekles lake in Golden Gate Park is the rhododendron island...From 2003-2004 the island was heavily dug up and renovated. Plants and trees that were non-native and neglected were removed and new rhododendrons were planted to bring the island back to its glory. So there is a very good chance that if it was buried there it is no longer there. I lived in the city at 37th and remember them tearing that section up, it was a huge mess. Drove through there yesterday and the rhodys are so beautiful in full bloom. Also keep in mind if you want to dig in the park you will need to fill out a dig permit request. It took almost 3 weeks for me to get a dig time.. They were strict with the hour limit. The guy was 10 minutes late and we did not get that extra time, so we had 50 minutes... you must supply your own tools and a tarp for the dirt and no filming was allowed. It is amazing how fast an hour can go by... Have fun
JoshCornell
i didnt fill out any forms...i just convinced the grounds crew to let me dig...but i dug at wrong spot lol...
Spiritr
Tamaari wrote::
From 2003-2004 the island was heavily dug up and renovated. Plants and trees that were non-native and neglected were removed and new rhododendrons were planted to bring the island back to its glory. So there is a very good chance that if it was buried there it is no longer there.
I completely disagree, if you're saying from 2013-2014....yea, maybe, whatever you're concerning might be a possibility. Some even
CONCLUDED
"only way this solution can ever be completely resolved is by cutting into the path, lifting out an asphalt slab, and digging underneath. It's not a difficult or expensive operation (road crews do the same thing every day when they repair potholes) but it's not something that can be done by a casual searcher with hand tools."( I read it in the wiki).
That's negative thinking, no good. Don't blame the game when you didn't win, that's lame.
My way of thinking is really simple, if I'm the one that buried the treasure, I will most likely check on it from time to time to see if it's still discover-able, unless you're telling me Mr. Preiss doesn't even know how to use google map. Otherwise, everything is still here upon 2014-2015. If work has been done to the site and the box is no longer discover-able. I'm sure he will announce his reader, given it fair to those who had it right. And motivae the rest of us over North America who still going after his story. Right?
Tamaari
Spiritr wrote::
I completely disagree, if you're saying from 2013-2014....yea, maybe, whatever you're concerning might be a possibility. Some even
CONCLUDED
"only way this solution can ever be completely resolved is by cutting into the path, lifting out an asphalt slab, and digging underneath. It's not a difficult or expensive operation (road crews do the same thing every day when they repair potholes) but it's not something that can be done by a casual searcher with hand tools."( I read it in the wiki).
That's negative thinking, no good. Don't blame the game when you didn't win, that's lame.
My way of thinking is really simple, if I'm the one that buried the treasure, I will most likely check on it from time to time to see if it's still discover-able, unless you're telling me Mr. Preiss doesn't even know how to use google map. Otherwise, everything is still here upon 2014-2015. If work has been done to the site and the box is no longer discover-able. I'm sure he will announce his reader, given it fair to those who had it right. And motivae the rest of us over North America who still going after his story. Right?
I am not quite sure where you are speaking about "cutting into the path, lifting out an asphalt slab" And I am sure Mr. Preiss would surely know how and would use google maps if he were still alive to do so. Upon his death in 2005 he took the location of every burial spot with him. I would love to believe that he would have given more clues to finding these final 10 treasure spots, as I am sure he wanted these to be found.
In the summer of 2003 volunteers assembled on site on a regular basis to clean up the patch of land, remove the plants that didn't belong and re-introduce different varieties of rhododendrons and azaleas. It took the volunteer group an entire year, but in the summer of 2004 they completed their project transforming this patch of land back to a garden filled with rhododendrons, azaleas and different tree species. Also...In 1995, the site suffered severe damage after a strong windstorm uprooted hundreds of mature
trees that shielded the plants from the sun. Many rhododendrons fell victim to the excessive heat. To make matters worse, a poor drainage system led to erosion. In 2010, a newly renovated space for the Rhododendron Dell was unveiled. Today, the gardeners of Golden Gate Park are also more successful in safeguarding healthy vegetation in the Dell. The Dell is a small traffic island that divides John F. Kennedy Drive and the 36th Avenue entrance.
Diceycat
I don’t think the road splits like that anywhere else in the park and why would they do that unless there was something significant growing there like a big old tree, maybe .What would help is photos of this area from the 1980s and all the other suspect locations. Anyone
Would they have dug 3 feet down? Might be asking for too much but does anyone know who the volunteers were that repaired the dell and if they happened to find the casque?
Tamaari
They tore it up pretty good to put in a new drainage system, so it is very possible it could have been dug up and they never even knew about it (if this is the burial spot).
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I would love to believe that he would have given more clues to finding these final 10 treasure spots, as I am sure he wanted these to be found.
Sentiments like the one above are often repeated on this forum and elsewhere, but all evidence suggests that the exact opposite was true. Preiss was made aware by several people well before his death that there was renewed interest in his hunt, and if anything, he went out of his way to obstruct their progress. In all fairness, twenty years had passed and there really was no upside for him (and considerable downside), so his reticence was understandable. What's more likely IMO is that he would have eventually gotten fed up with being badgered (think JJP), called off the hunt (not sure what the legal implications of that would have been), had the remaining casques dug up privately, and possibly issued a short explanation of each puzzle and how it worked. And that would have been the end of it.
Diceycat
What do you think of this idea ( big stretch). There is a tree by the sidewalk along JFK dr. ,looks like an old sequoia (fenced in by a wooden fence) co-ordinates 37 degrees 46’ 20 “ by 122 degrees 28’ 09” .
My question has to do with the dark shapes made by the roots crisis crossing and the shapes on the tree trunk itself . Could the dark spot between the wrists on the image be referencing to a dark spot of the same shape at the tree base? Just a wild guess
Spiritr
Diceycat wrote::
What do you think of this idea ( big stretch). There is a tree by the sidewalk along JFK dr. ,looks like an old sequoia (fenced in by a wooden fence) co-ordinates 37 degrees 46’ 20 “ by 122 degrees 28’ 09” .
My question has to do with the dark shapes made by the roots crisis crossing and the shapes on the tree trunk itself . Could the dark spot between the wrists on the image be referencing to a dark spot of the same shape at the tree base? Just a wild guess
I think the idea is good. But when applied to the image, does it match? Along with those numbers.
Yesterday I was missing 2 keys to the puzzle, now I have 3.
1.digging tools
2.camera man
3. How exactly do people made comments and edit pages in thesecret.pbworks??? I’ve tried requesting to join for almost 2 weeks already. And nothing....
JoshCornell
i think you need to get off the tree crack, thats what i think lol.
MrBackstop
Goldengate wrote::
It's an interesting way to turn the phrase, and in theory it works. For me it's a little bit of a journey to get from The Rock to "stone wall's." That said, if there's a plaque or even 1981 tourist guide that references 43 as an official Alcatraz prisoner departure point, it would be a GREAT revelation... I'm just dubious of Google dives replacing direct 1981 contemporary references... one of the reasons for my doubt is the quote below from, yes, I know, an internet site:
hxxp://www.alcatraz101.com
. While there is no mention of Pier 43 as one of the departure points for prisoners, it doesn't mean it's not true -- or that you are not correct, I'd just love to see some 1981 information that Preiss could have readily referenced on a walking tour of the area:
"Shipments of inmates from the other federal prisons followed. These inmates
would be pulled out of their cells, put in handcuffs and leg shackles, linked
together in a "chain" with connecting waist irons, then loaded onto a special train,
described as a "rolling prison", and transported across the country. The train cars
were uncoupled at secluded docks on San Francisco Bay, in Richmond and
Tiburon, then pushed onto a barge and tugged over to Alcatraz. The inmates
would step off the train right onto The Rock.
After these initial shipments, replacement inmates came to Alcatraz individually
or in small groups, following more conventional prisoner transit procedures. The
final point of departure for these inmates was Fort Mason, right next to Muni Pier
in San Francisco. There they boarded the prison launch for their short ride to a
long stay at Alcatraz."
Additionally I've read they kept a vehicle at Ft. Mason exclusively as prisoner transport for court appearances.
Again, not saying you're wrong at all, I've read a couple online references to 43 / Alcatraz as well, but if 43 was only one of multiple departure points for Alcatraz prisoners and information about it wasn't reasonably accessible in 81, it becomes a little less "rock solid" (sorry, terrible pun).
Again, your theory is totally interesting, I'm just playing the devil's advocate.
GG, yeah I saw this and other info regarding the prisoners first populating Alcatraz. But after it was established, new prisoners would be processed and put on the Belt Railroad and take over to Pier 43. From there they would be handed over to the Police boats on their way to the Rock.
In fact, the reason the woman has her arms crossed in my solve is to represent the Belt Railroad which ran from the West Side of Fort Mason, under the Fort and down Jefferson to access the piers.
So when you see the Lincoln face next to the Fish face on the left side of our Russian lady that is letting us know that the Belt Railroad used to run somewhere from around Lincoln Blvd over thru Fisherman's Wharf.
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
All right. This is a little crazy, but just maybe not. Please indulge me for a moment...
The painting is pretty clearly an homage to Da Vinci's painting the "Madonna of the Rocks." Interestingly, the moons in the image might be a tip of the hat to Da Vinci as well—and a clue.
How? Modern science credits Da Vinci as being the first person ever to correctly explain the phenomena of "earthshine." What is earthshine? It's the glow the moon gets around it's edge from light reflected from the earth. It is referred to today as "Da Vinci Glow." NASA has an entire page dedicated to it:
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/04oct_leonardo.html
If you look up "Da Vinci Glow" on Wikipedia you are redirected to the entry for "earthshine."
Here is how Da Vinci drew it from his observations:
Now, almost all of the moons in the image (if not all) have this Da Vinci Glow. You don't have to draw a moon this way... but the artist did. I think he put this touch in intentionally, just like he chose Da Vinci's "the Madonna of the rocks" quite intentionally for the San Francisco puzzle. He looked at Alcatraz—a.k.a. The Rock—and painted a woman in front of a scene of water and rocks, with the main rock high above with a barred window, i.e. a prison window. He wanted us to think Alcatraz. Maybe the moons were chosen because he wants us to recognize Da Vinci Glow. He wants us to think "glow." Maybe we aren't supposed to be looking for eleven orbs/circles/moons at all. Maybe we are supposed to be looking above us—just as the moons are above the woman and atop the image—for eleven glowing objects.
There's that pesky Ghirardelli sign again—eleven glowing letters above us as we physically start the puzzle:
By the way Durian, I thought this obsevation of yours was brilliant. I had attributed the 11 "moons" to being the lights that surround Ghirardelli Square, they are everywhere. But I was always trying to figure out why there were 11 and I like your tie-in to the Letters in Ghirardelli.
Props to you.
JoshCornell
i used the prisoners leaving from the 43, to be the reference that takes you to the Arch which has railway lines running to it, at the pier in fisherman's wharf. with pier 43 being where you would take the ferry to and from Angel Island before (as the two islands are related via the "i have seen the elephants" reference pertaining to the hardships endured by new immigrants, particularly the Chinese who were discriminated against with the Chinese Exclusion Act; which, in turn, relates to the hardships endured by prisoners on the rock, of which the forced labour was an example). im assuming the battleship wasnt there in 81.
MrBackstop
The thing that stood out to me at night when I visited years ago was all the white globe lights throughout Ghirardelli. When I mentioned this at one time I was told that those white globe lights are all over SF. And that's okay with me, it just that it is very noticeable.
Someone on here did mention Apollo 11 once as being a connection to the city but I like the idea of Ghirardelli and the 11 letters representing the "moons" in Image 1.
I'll throw this out there too for fun. If you look at a map or google earth and view SF from the North looking south you will notice why the our lady has two different shaped elbows. Her elbow on the left (her right elbow) is the coastline of the Eastern side of SF along the Embarcadero/Fisherman's Wharf and the elbow on the right (her left elbow) is the coast by the Pacific ocean, Fort Miley area. This tells me that our Seamonster/Dragon/Snake in the center puts us in Maritime National Park for the solve.
Spiritr
JoshCornell wrote::
i used the prisoners leaving from the 43, to be the reference that takes you to the Arch which has railway lines running to it, at the pier in fisherman's wharf. with pier 43 being where you would take the ferry to and from Angel Island before (as the two islands are related via the "i have seen the elephants" reference pertaining to the hardships endured by new immigrants, particularly the Chinese who were discriminated against with the Chinese Exclusion Act; which, in turn, relates to the hardships endured by prisoners on the rock, of which the forced labour was an example). im assuming the battleship wasnt there in 81.
how horrible was that, to pay respect to my ancestors who suffers and as a first generation Chinese immigrant, I must find it....
anyone have any good suggestions for a compact, maybe fold-able probe that can poke 4 to 5 ft?
Diceycat
Tell me what you think of this . The 36 in the hair represents 36th ave. and 36th ave. runs into that dell area by Spreckels lake. The fact that the fingers point to lets say 43 and some say 34 (the arms crossover), then the location could be somewhere inbetween 34th ave. and 43rd ave. which makes 36 th ave. even more compelling as a guide to the location.
erexere
I don't believe the Apollo 11 has anything to do with this puzzle. It seems like a disconnect tonthe theme or SF in general.
The one thing I like most is the hint from the LotJ about the pearl being perfect as a silver moon. I think it helps as an indication for how to work with the verse or how some landmark has something to do with whatever shares the some character that applies to perfect silver. My current thinking is the number for pure silver is 999, which I find in a clever way might work to describe the sculptures of August Rodin which represent a giant door to Hell. (See The Gates of Hell which include the Thinker presently at the Legion of Honor and the Shades which at the time of this hunts introduction located at the northeast end of the parking lot
I know I've said this all before. What the Hell, I just like saying it.
Goonie68
erexere wrote::
I don't believe the Apollo 11 has anything to do with this puzzle. It seems like a disconnect tonthe theme or SF in general.
The one thing I like most is the hint from the LotJ about the pearl being perfect as a silver moon. I think it helps as an indication for how to work with the verse or how some landmark has something to do with whatever shares the some character that applies to perfect silver. My current thinking is the number for pure silver is 999, which I find in a clever way might work to describe the sculptures of August Rodin which represent a giant door to Hell. (See The Gates of Hell which include the Thinker presently at the Legion of Honor and the Shades which at the time of this hunts introduction located at the northeast end of the parking lot
I know I've said this all before. What the Hell, I just like saying it.
I could see if the moons in the image had a silver tint to them to lead you in that direction, but IMO they are depicted as Moons,11 (there is no silver in the image) the question is why 11 why not 10 or 12 or 9, ? The puzzle gives you a number to count, 11 if you are trying to connect it to the puzzle you have a couple of options, 11th ave, or as suggested 11 letters in the Ghirardelli sign or IMO Apollo 11 with ties directly to JFK, and confirms that the "path you take " or the face in the rock is JFK, which runs through GGP. I don't think that's a stretch. BP was a Huge Syfy guy, just look at his work it's all about fantasy and the realm of Sci Fi. Maybe this was an influence to some puzzles and added these hints to the puzzle. Take Boston for instance, looks pretty Sci Fi to me (the illustration) IMO. This is just food for thought and it's only a suggestion. I do like the idea of silver moon, but I can't find a direct connection to the image for that idea.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Sentiments like the one above are often repeated on this forum and elsewhere, but all evidence suggests that the exact opposite was true. Preiss was made aware by several people well before his death that there was renewed interest in his hunt, and if anything, he went out of his way to obstruct their progress.
I am not sure the last part is true, I think he was not really interested or too busy elsewhere and did not want to be bothered, but I never ever heard that he did anything to obstruct. simply not helping is in no way obstructing. Am I mistaken, What do you mean by obstruct?
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
Yesterday I was missing 2 keys to the puzzle, now I have 3.
1.digging tools
2.camera man
What about your permit?
and BTW the Permit rules....
Permit will be granted on a first come first serve basis
Activity is supervised by SF Rec & Parks Park Ranger
Specify activity location in permit application
1 hole, 1-hour time limit per permit
Permits will be offered Mon-Fri 9am to 10 am or 12 pm to 1 pm.
One permit per day in each time slot
Probing poles are allowed up to 3.5 feet
Hand-digging only, no power tools permitted
Hole may not exceed 2 feet in diameter, 3.5 feet deep
Avoid drip-line of trees
Tools and tarps must be supplied by permittee
Hole must be refilled and all turf must be replaced exactly as found
No filming allowed
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Just for the record, I'm not saying the moons have anything to do with Apollow 11. I'm just saying they're metaphor, like the triangle in the Cleveland puzzle.
.
The Triangle in the cleveland puzzle is an exact match to the sign for "The Triangle" a shopping center,
this is where you turned into the park off Euclid and enter Rockefeller park..
Its the same as going down Michigan and turning at the Bowman to enter Grant Park.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Or, it could be metaphor.
Have you seen eleven moons at night on any of your excursions to San Francisco? And I'm not talking about somehing you may have seen after a few drinks.
So, assuming you haven't seen eleven moons (fair?)... they must
represent
something other than eleven moons. Metaphor.
no I have not seen 11 moons, I never ever thought they represented moons.
no I do not think they are a metaphor. nor do I think they represent letters on a sign.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
.
The Triangle in the cleveland puzzle is an exact match to the sign for "The Triangle" a shopping center,
this is where you turned into the park off Euclid and enter Rockefeller park..
Its the same as going down Michigan and turning at the Bowman to enter Grant Park.
Was Ford street the street that lead to the park?
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Was Ford street the street that lead to the park?
Yes it was you turned - ford ran a block or so and became east. back in 1981 East made the horses tail turn (now there is a hospital or something sitting on that spot)
the whole road was rearranged.
But basically once you turned at the triangle you just stayed on the road and it went right to the columns.
maltedfalcon
and just saying.
The Gh does not match the Ghirardelli sign, Yes they are both Serif fonts, but they are not the same serif font, besides the letter thickness, look at the h it is totally different.
Goonie68
The Triangle in the cleveland puzzle is an exact match to the sign for "The Triangle" a shopping center,
this is where you turned into the park off Euclid and enter Rockefeller park..
Its the same as going down Michigan and turning at the Bowman to enter Grant Park.[/quote]
Was Ford street the street that lead to the park?[/quote]
Yes it was you turned - ford ran a block or so and became east. back in 1981 East made the horses tail turn (now there is a hospital or something sitting on that spot)
the whole road was rearranged.
But basically once you turned at the triangle you just stayed on the road and it went right to the columns.[/quote]
I find that very interesting, with Ford, now I know maybe this wasn't' intend but I find the fact the street name Ford and you have a horse(well half of one lol) in the illustration Ford = Mustang = horse(illustration) reinforcing Ford street is the main path to the columns.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I find that very interesting, with Ford, now I know maybe this wasn't' intend but I find the fact the street name Ford and you have a horse(well half of one lol) in the illustration Ford = Mustang = horse(illustration) reinforcing Ford street is the main path to the columns.
never thought about that - possible...
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
never thought about that - possible...
Here is a possibility for SF, Image: Cable car (iconic image for SF), table, clock, Blue and Gold featured colors, bump on the outline of the dress.
Blue and Gold colors = State of California official Colors = California = California street
Cable car = California line (cable car)
Clock + table = Timetable = schedule= arrival or departure ( in this case a cable car schedule)
Bump = Knob or Nob= hill ( the route that the California line runs through)
There is more if interested..........
gManTexas
Goonie,
I know you like the Rose Garden and so do I, but this is my take.
At Mirror Lake (aka Lloyd Lake), hence the mirrored image, we have the Portals of the Past. Huge monument to the past and future of SF.
hxxp://www.knightstemplar.org/pgeo/mepgm/18.html
Reuben Hedley Lloyd was a master Mason and the temple in SF was erected in his memory in 1958, where our girl is pointing in the Image (5 & 8 blocks on her sleeves). The Masonic temple sits on the former property of Alban Towne on Californian Street which is the doorway that remained standing in the earthquake of 1906 and is the monument in the park. The lines of the verse match up and I believe the casque is behind the Portals on the left side where the natural flat spot is. I'm okay with doubters, and when I get the chance to fly out there, I will dig a nice pit.
In the bottom image you'll notice that there is a giant pole and giant step. The pole was placed there after the earthquake of 1957 destroyed the rear column. It sat on the huge top step. The column has since seen replaced but in 1982 that is what it looked like. I think being a simple puzzle (based on the value of the pearl) this is our spot.
Goonie68
Gman,
Yes I agree with the portals being a potential spot, the possibilities I posted prior was how we get to GGP from the Iconic image of the cable car.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
I would think if we are to see "glowing objects, then the background of the "moons" or objects would be dark resembling night to get the glow effect, the illustration does not have this to connect "glowing night" with a lighter background, I am not saying your wrong just seems a little off if we are supposed to make this connection.
gManTexas
I just wish someone would stick a shovel in the ground back there.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
So check this out. I can't grab the image, so you'll have to follow the link. We have, on-board the Eureka:
Dragons
A clock with Roman numerals
A clock hand with a trefoil (three circles in an ornamental pattern) like the symbol in the dress. Remember that the woman's hands are pointing like clock hands, with Roman numerals above and below her hands.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomstr ... VWy-3JVAKe
If the Eureka was the dig spot I would be on board!
MrBackstop
Am I the only one that sees the "animal" on her bath robe to actually be a snake swallowing a sea serpent?
Goonie68
Dragons
A clock with Roman numerals
A clock hand with a trefoil (three circles in an ornamental pattern) like the symbol in the dress. Remember that the woman's hands are pointing like clock hands, with Roman numerals above and below her hands.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomstr ... VWy-3JVAKe
[/quote]
If the Eureka was the dig spot I would be on board![/quote]
The dig spot is "in the direction of the object of Twain's attention," not on it! Assuming the "object" is the Eureka, then we now have four things from the image connected to the Eureka: dragons, clock hands, a clock with Roman numerals, and a trefoil (three circle pattern).[/quote]
Goonie68, note too that the woman can be viewed as a "dragon clock."
If the woman is a clock and her hands are the "arms in the clock" then she would be pointing to 9:20?
What are we looking at? She's got a dress with a dragon on it, the dragon is surrounded by Roman numerals, and her arms are crossed and pointing, like a clock points.[/quote]
Goonie68
Goonie68 wrote::
Dragons
A clock with Roman numerals
A clock hand with a trefoil (three circles in an ornamental pattern) like the symbol in the dress. Remember that the woman's hands are pointing like clock hands, with Roman numerals above and below her hands.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randomstr ... VWy-3JVAKe
If the Eureka was the dig spot I would be on board![/quote]
The dig spot is "in the direction of the object of Twain's attention," not on it! Assuming the "object" is the Eureka, then we now have four things from the image connected to the Eureka: dragons, clock hands, a clock with Roman numerals, and a trefoil (three circle pattern).[/quote]
Goonie68, note too that the woman can be viewed as a "dragon clock."
If the woman is a clock and her hands are the "arms in the clock" then she would be pointing to 9:20?
What are we looking at? She's got a dress with a dragon on it, the dragon is surrounded by Roman numerals, and her arms are crossed and pointing, like a clock points.[/quote][/quote]
If the woman is the clock then her hands are pointing to 9:20?
JoshCornell
as in left hand pointing to the 9 and right hand pointing down towards where the 4 would be, is what he's getting at lol.
MrBackstop
Durian, thanks for this link, good stuff.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/hhh.ca4182.sheet/?sp=12
This is where the idea for the sea serpent came from for this Image.
MrBackstop
Ghirardelli connections to the Image.
Backwards G and h
11 white balls in the sky - Globe lights throughout the Square
Blue and Gold - Ghirardelli's Company colors
Upside IV - 6 on the Ghirardelli clock tower
The eagle head in the snake just below the upside down IV - Eagle is in the Ghirardelli logo
Anybody want to add anything to this?
MrBackstop
I've just always seen a snake's mouth coming up from under the serpent's wing. That looks like an eye just below the wing with the snakes mouth wrapped around the body of the serpent. It doesn't change anything in the puzzle too much. I just felt as thought the speaker tower was the Sea Serpent and the Snake was the Cable Cars/tracks running thru the city streets.
I've never seen anyone discuss the Snake and the Serpent or the large "6" and letter "S" at the top of what would be the Snake's body. I see this as meaning 6 Steps, as in 6 blocks....just like in Boston where it say 5 steps in the verse.
If you start at Stone Wall's door, Pier 43, and go 6 blocks to the West (Twain's attn) you end up in National Maritime Park. I've previously talked about the Geo. H at the bottom of the snake meaning George Hyde. I just thought I'd throw the 6 and S into the mix as well. Any body come up with other ideas on those?
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
For real? You expect an artist to exactly represent that font in such a small space on a painting? Looks like he did a pretty good job to me.
small space?
ok lets do the math if the frame is made up of 3" wood
then the bottom of the picture to the "fold" line is 12 units tall
or 36 inches- that makes sense, he painted it on a standard 36 inch piece of art board then had to extend it up to finish the curve.
that explains the fold line, its not a fold line its the seam between the artboards...
so that means each letter is just over an inch tall and an inch wide.... possbile a smidge bigger.
So yes I expect an artist of the caliber of ggp who probably used an opaque projector to add items to the drawings before painting them on would have got the letters exactly right.
for instance look at the yin yan symbol it is exactly right... examine the other text ie the 38 in the hair, incredibly fine work there.
so again no the Gh does not match the Gh in the sign.
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
Ghirardelli connections to the Image.
Backwards G and h
11 white balls in the sky - Globe lights throughout the Square
Blue and Gold - Ghirardelli's Company colors
Upside IV - 6 on the Ghirardelli clock tower
The eagle head in the snake just below the upside down IV - Eagle is in the Ghirardelli logo
Anybody want to add anything to this?
only that you have the company colors wrong, well not wrong for today but in 1981 this was ghiradelli's product and colors.
https://atmedia.imgix.net/b3eed2df2cda0d9efe7952766c1bbf8c3a98e688?auto=format&q=45&w=478.0&h=402.0&fit=max&cs=strip
maltedfalcon
MrSeabass wrote::
If that's the case, then the images of Ohio, Illinois, Charleston, and Roanoke Island do not match the map.
yes correct, we know all the maps are not accurate representations, but his buildings are spot on, and his faces.figures, but mostly the site confirmer images are rock solid. almost traced. and in this case since we are trying to use the Gh as a site confirmer not a map we would expect it to be nailed.
MrBackstop
Yeah, that's true on the colors. At that time frame it looks like they went with the big 3 and didn't get rid of the red until the early 80s.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
So what do you think of the fact the rose—when flipped—looks a lot like a map of Angel Island?
And what do you make of this clock with two dragons on-board the Eureka:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/feetwet/5 ... h8C-9Jbuyu
Seems interesting that we're looking at an image of a woman:
-Whose dress is dominated by a dragon
-Which is surrounded by Roman numerals
-That we know are from a clock because the V and VI are upside down like a clock
-And the woman's two hands are crossed and pointing, like a clock?
And the fact this boat is of the style which definitely was an object of Twain's attention, seeing as how if he didn't
pay attention
to his work the boat might literally crash. BTW, it was an act of paying close attention that gave Twain his pen name. Seems like a play on words...
Just a lot of coincidence?
1 I think that you can see angel island from the casque site.
2 Those aren't dragons those are phoenix's which are a common theme on old clocks /the die-rebirth thing
3 puzzle is china themed a dragon on the dress makes sense.
4 yes but which clock.
5 by that definition any two hands on any image are a clock. they are crossed to represent crossover drive, an identifiable point in golden gate park ,they point to indicate some special information. (not a clock time) the image has a clock it points to just before 6
6 a ferry boat is not a river boat. as a mark twain match , well... there are many better, shoot, angel island is a better match than the eureka. as is fort point. both of which show up in the image, the eureka does not.
7 you missed the best part of the clock on the eureka, the finial on the top matches the finial on the clock on the table.... but then it can't be a cable car bell....
Do I think it's a lot of coincidence? why yes, I have seen no less that 8 spots in the city with great matches to the verse and images, admittedly some not as good as maritime park, but most a lot better.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
The colors are probably from the Blue and Gold Fleet.
I seriously doubt it , in the 80s the Blue and Gold Fleet was three small boats that offered sight seeing from way down at the other end of fisherman's wharf. and really was not a notable company until much later.
they were just one of many sight seeing companies in business around there at the time, nothing special and not even nearby.
Diceycat
In the post “Palencar Original Artwork” page 2, Wicket posted a link to very clear scans of the 12 images and the number in the hair looks like a 36 not 38
maltedfalcon
Diceycat wrote::
In the post “Palencar Original Artwork” page 2, Wicket posted a link to very clear scans of the 12 images and the number in the hair looks like a 36 not 38
yes, well I understand they were from an original book,
and I didn't want to say anything, but those scans are awful
first just look at a text base paged zoomed in to 400% I would expect absolutely crisp lines, but the lines and letters are full of anti - alias artifacts
and his scanning introduced moire patterns into the image.
so here- its a 38...
gManTexas
Durian, I'm starting to think you're kind of a douche.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Malted, you amaze me! Birds don't have teeth. And two hands on any image are
not
a clock. This is nonsensical.
no you are absolutely right I got mixed up with the senior center those are the phoenixes.
I agree with you on two hands not making a clock, therefore the woman in image one does not represent a clock and her hands do not act as a clock.
I'm glad we got that straightened out.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Challenging the status quo with facts doesn't make me a douche.
Absolutely not! at one time I would have agreed whole-heartedly with all these clues.
The real trouble with them is not how good they are, it is simply they don't lead to a casque.
but perhaps all the people who checked these out before were totally wrong.
If you can put a new spin on them and find the casque, Great!
you just asked for opinions on them so I gave you mine.
I hope you absolutely prove me wrong. I want somebody to find this thing.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
I got it. That's why I'm asking. Here's another. What do you think of this:
Looks like the artist might have had some fun by adding a forehead and lower lip.
I think it's a bit forced, since whether its Lincoln or JFK all he had to do was pull a coin out of his pocket for a matching source. and site confirmers seem to be more exact copies, than say maps.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
It's the base of the railing that surrounds the Hyde turnaround. Looks to me like the artist may have used a photo like this and added the forehead and lower lip, similar to how he gave the statue in the Chicago puzzle wings. Why? Don't know, maybe just for a laugh... Maybe to mean something... But the straight lines are a basic match, and the curve of the "hair" and "chin" are a basic match as well. Interesting.
Well no the fairy in chicago is a perfect match with wings added.
These are words to stay away from, its a basic match- that actually means it does't match but in my mind I add these execptions and it works...
it is an example of seeing something that isnt there.
You keep trying to re-inforce your solve, when really all you need to do is identify a spot.
if your spot is already identified, then go dig it up or get someone to do it.
I know at first you were over by the stairway, not it seems to be in the middle of the park.
If your solve is valid it resolves to a spot, whats the spot? (I am not asking you to tell me.)
go get it dug.
Because as "Interesting" as all these clues are, they don't point to a specific identifiable casque location.
At the end of 10x13 or In a rectangular plot
Beneath the tenth stone
From right to left
What is your giant pole and where is your giant step in the direction of an object of twains attention. This all has to come to a specific spot.
as soon as you dig it you will know if your theory is correct.
maltedfalcon
what i said was go dig
Goonie68
Would this be consider a stone wall's door?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
What do you mean by obstruct?
"Obstruct" may be too strong a word Matt, but whether you agree with me or not ultimately depends on your interpretation of statement Preiss made such as:
-10 by 13 refers to feet
-there are no clues contained in the rest of the book
-Andy and Brian got all the clues
-it would not be a waste of time to dig there
IMO, all those statements are actually detrimental to solving the puzzle. I agree that he was under no obligation to "help", but if that was really his intention, it would have been much simpler to just not respond to the phone calls and emails that he received, and to be much more reserved when he spoke with Andy and Brian.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
"Obstruct" may be too strong a word Matt, but whether you agree with me or not ultimately depends on your interpretation of statement Preiss made such as:
-10 by 13 refers to feet
-there are no clues contained in the rest of the book
-Andy and Brian got all the clues
-it would not be a waste of time to dig there
IMO, all those statements are actually detrimental to solving the puzzle. I agree that he was under no obligation to "help", but if that was really his intention, it would have been much simpler to just not respond to the phone calls and emails that he received, and to be much more reserved when he spoke with Andy and Brian.
actually looking at it that way
you are correct
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
you are correct
What I am is consistent. It remains to be seen whether I am correct.
JoshCornell
Goonie68 wrote::
Would this be consider a stone wall's door?
dont think so. but thats me.
Diceycat
Here goes my new and improved solve for image 1
At stone walls door the air smells sweet = the stone wall entrance to the stone walled fragrance garden at GGP
Not far away high posts are three = Sutro tower, you can see it from the entrance to the fragrance garden.
Education and justice for all to see = well you have a library in the botanical garden as well as a museum near by and most of the main streets are named after politicians like JFK.
Sounds from the sky near ace is high = between the music concourse and 11th ave. Is the general location of the casque
Running north but first across = straight north of the entrance to the fragrance garden lines you up with 11th ave. The first across is having to go across since you can’t go over the buildings so you need to bypass them
In jewels direction = north
Is an object of Twain’s attention = on the north side of JFK dr. You see the fenced in giant sequoia
Giant pole = the sequoia
Giant step = just that about 4 feet
So the casque is probably on the north side of the tree .This could be the clincher in the image 1 and would have to be investigated by someone who lives close by .
Take a close look at the fence that surrounds the tree . There is a top row of fence rails and a single row below that so what you have is two rows of squares essentially just like the two rows on each side in the image that the fingers point to . The thing is that the fingers are not pointing to the squares they are pointing to the areas in between the squares which represents the posts! .So you would have to count the posts from the east side and from the west side ( can’t be done on google earth), to determine the location more accurately. So you have to count them the right way . 5 posts going south from the north end on the west side and 4 posts going south from the north east corner and see where they intersect with the giant step
Possibly when you get a view of the north side of the tree you might see a dark shape resembling to one made between the wrists.
It would be nice if some one could confirm this. Maybe post a photo or two
Spiritr
Goonie68 wrote::
Would this be consider a stone wall's door?
No, rule number 1, no grave yard, no cemetery , so, NO.
Goonie68
Spiritr wrote::
No, rule number 1, no grave yard, no cemetery , so, NO.
I didn't say this was the dig spot or the location, just asking opinion that's all, I am well aware of NO CEMETERY to dig in.
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
No, rule number 1, no grave yard, no cemetery , so, NO.
Welcome to the forum, newbie.
Goonie68
Information Sunday:
I found this very interesting and a possible connection to the Iconic image of SF and the start of the puzzle (not the start of the verse)
Connection to:
California Street
/Cable car line: Cable Car Iconic Image in the illustration
Underneath the Embarcadero lies a grave yard of ships. During the Gold rush of California, there was two types of migrations to California, one by land and one by sea. Ships crowed the ports of San Fransisco up to 40 + ships a day. These ships brought people from all over the world to begin a new life in the Gold Rush days of California. The ships that docked at the piers would unload supplies and people, but never saw their return , due to their new future in the Gold rush. These ships were left and abandon, over time the Embarcadero would grow and the ships would be burred under the foundation of the new landscape. Most of the streets today (in the Embarcadero) were piers before they became roads. Docked at the California pier was a ship named The Henry Lee, named after Col Richard Henry Lee. His nickname was "the immigrant" The Henry Lee was found at California and Davis street. Chinese immigrants made it to California in 1850's to 1880's, before they where brought to Angle Island. The ports of San Fransisco would of seen the first wave of Chinese immigrants during the Gold Rush ear.
Goonie68
Information Sunday:
I found this very interesting and a possible connection to the Iconic image of SF and the start of the puzzle (not the start of the verse)
Connection to:
California Street
/Cable car line: Cable Car Iconic Image in the illustration
Underneath the Embarcadero lies a grave yard of ships. During the Gold rush of California, there was two types of migrations to California, one by land and one by sea. Ships crowed the ports of San Fransisco up to 40 + ships a day. These ships brought people from all over the world to begin a new life in the Gold Rush days of California. The ships that docked at the piers would unload supplies and people, but never saw their return , due to their new future in the Gold rush. These ships were left and abandon, over time the Embarcadero would grow and the ships would be burred under the foundation of the new landscape. Most of the streets today (in the Embarcadero) were piers before they became roads. Docked at the California
pier
was a ship named The Henry Lee, named after Col Richard Henry Lee. His nickname was "the immigrant" The Henry Lee was found at California and Davis street. Chinese immigrants made it to California in 1850's to 1880's, before they where brought to Angle Island. The ports of San Fransisco would of seen the first wave of Chinese immigrants during the Gold Rush ear.
Goonie68
This an article from a person that excavated a site near California street
In the early 70’s, on Fremont and Market Streets, we found a sunken ship with over 320 Chinese skeletons in it. It happened as we suddenly broke through a sunken hull with our heavy digging equipment. The ship was used as a final resting place for Chinese laborers after the ship had been abandon. The other operator, a despicable individual whose name I’ll keep anonymous in case he’s still alive, work along side me, and he was stealing their gold teeth. Eventually an antiquities person caught him and made the idiot give up the gold crowns. Finally, a Chinese Benevolent Society in San Francisco’s Chinatown collected all the remains we could find and reburied them in an all Chinese graveyard in Coma, CA. Coma is a town just south of SF. Its sole purpose is dedicated lands so that all denominations have graveyards. In fact, no one alive lives there including many of my own deceased relatives. Spooky–huh?
Like · Reply · 3 mi
Road Wolf / June 21, 2016
Mister EZ
hxxp://www.upout.com/blog/san-francisco-3/map-shows-ships-buried-underneath-san-francisco-2
So many boats...so little time...
JoshCornell
not everything is flipped on the vertical fyi
Spiritr
beyond imagination
MrBackstop
Durian, more solid work on your part. I like what I'm seeing. I really like the stair-stepped shape looking like the side of the Maritime Museum. The other areas also look promising and definitely put us in National Maritime Park.
I like your 6 points. Except for #1 I see the Giant Pole as being the Smokestack at SF Pumping Station #2 at the front of the Aquatic Pier. That smokestack is gone now. But if you line up where the smokestack was with the East Speaker tower it goes right over the top of the East bleachers.
Giant Pole - SF Pumping Station Smokestack
Giant Step - East Bleachers
To the place - National Maritime Park
The casque is kept - Near the East Speaker Tower
I believe Priess and JJP used several of the photos from all over the cities to create this artwork and combined many elements that could easily throw searchers off. I see Image 1 as a combination of GGP, Lombard St, Coit Tower, Ghirardelli, Alcatraz, Muir Woods, Fisherman's Wharf,
Angel
Island, Hyde Street Pier, and more. I like the images of the clock and dragon on the Eureka. They could easily be the inspiration for the Sea Monster/dragon/snake in Image 1, and so could the dragon from the Senior Center. JJP had lots of images to work from and obviously came up with a beautiful piece.
I enjoy all the ideas you are throwing out there with the Ghirardelli clock and possible locations by the bleacher wall. Those spots could definitely be viable. I am of the belief that the dig spot is to the South of the East Tower. I wonder if anyone has probed over there?
MrBackstop
Durian, more solid work on your part. I like what I'm seeing. I really like the stair-stepped shape looking like the side of the Maritime Museum. The other areas also look promising and definitely put us in National Maritime Park.
I like your 6 points. Except for #1 I see the Giant Pole as being the Smokestack at SF Pumping Station #2 at the front of the Aquatic
Pier
. That smokestack is gone now. But if you line up where the smokestack was with the East Speaker tower it goes right over the top of the East bleachers.
Giant Pole - SF Pumping Station Smokestack
Giant Step - East Bleachers
To the place - National Maritime Park
The casque is kept - Near the East Speaker Tower
I believe Priess and JJP used several of the photos from all over the cities to create this artwork and combined many elements that could easily throw searchers off. I see Image 1 as a combination of GGP, Lombard St, Coit Tower, Ghirardelli, Alcatraz, Muir Woods, Fisherman's Wharf, Angel Island, Hyde Street
Pier
, and more. I like the images of the clock and dragon on the Eureka. They could easily be the inspiration for the Sea Monster/dragon/snake in Image 1, and so could the dragon from the Senior Center. JJP had lots of images to work from and obviously came up with a beautiful piece.
I enjoy all the ideas you are throwing out there with the Ghirardelli clock and possible locations by the bleacher wall. Those spots could definitely be viable. I am of the belief that the dig spot is to the South of the East Tower. I wonder if anyone has probed over there?
MrBackstop
Durian, more solid work on your part. I like what I'm seeing. I really like the stair-stepped shape looking like the side of the Maritime Museum. The other areas also look promising and definitely put us in National Maritime Park.
I like your 6 points. Except for #1 I see the Giant Pole as being the Smokestack at SF Pumping Station #2 at the front of the Aquatic Pier. That smokestack is gone now. But if you line up where the smokestack was with the East Speaker tower it goes right over the top of the East bleachers.
Giant Pole - SF Pumping Station Smokestack
Giant Step - East Bleachers
To the place - National Maritime Park
The casque is kept - Near the East Speaker Tower
I believe Priess and JJP used several of the photos from all over the cities to create this artwork and combined many elements that could easily throw searchers off. I see Image 1 as a combination of GGP, Lombard St, Coit Tower, Ghirardelli, Alcatraz, Muir Woods, Fisherman's Wharf, Angel Island, Hyde Street Pier, and more. I like the images of the clock and dragon on the Eureka. They could easily be the inspiration for the Sea Monster/dragon/snake in Image 1, and so could the dragon from the Senior Center. JJP had lots of images to work from and obviously came up with a beautiful piece.
I enjoy all the ideas you are throwing out there with the Ghirardelli clock and possible locations by the bleacher wall. Those spots could definitely be viable. I am of the belief that the dig spot is to the South of the East Tower. I wonder if anyone has probed over there?
maltedfalcon
Magesmiley wrote::
My apologies for taking so long, I was kind of ill the last few days or so. My adventure digging at the beach by the Aquatic Park was... interesting and one my daughters will surely remember for years.
The first day I was in San Francisco I went up to front desk of the museum that had jurisdiction over the park and asked if it would be ok to go out to the beach and dig a hole, describing that I wanted to dig down about 3-3.5 feet right in front of the steps. The guy at the desk and another lady kind of pondered it and then indicated that it would be ok since its a public beach. I jotted his name down and thanked him.
The next day my family and I headed down to the beach and I proceeded to dig, drawing the occasional interest of passers by. All went well for awhile, with me getting to the point that I had a hole about 3.5 feet deep (at which point I was hitting hard rocks) and around 3.5 feet around. At this point a park policeman stopped me and asked what was going on. I explained and indicated that I had inquired yesterday at the museum's front desk and was told that it would be ok. He indictated that he hadn't been informed and had to do some checking.
To make a long story short, he then proceeded to do a bunch of checking and it turns out that the guy who told me it was ok didn't have the authority to give me permission to dig. Fortunately I had jotted the guys name down, which helped. So, because I did attempt to go through the proper channels and thought I had an ok from someone in the organization, he didn't give me a ticket, but it ended my digging. I had to fill everything in and give up.
The officer was quite nice towards the end and even gave me the name of the proper channel to go through, however as my trip was drawing to a close, I didn't have time to follow up on it.
Several onlookers were quite disappointed that my digging was ended too. One guy even started chanting 'let him dig' and a lady was arguing with the police officer (which wasn't helping things).
So as to my rationale:
I was digging, incidentally, down at the base of a large step by one of the lamp poles by the beach at the Aquatic Park.
From the picture: Gh isn't a general SF landmark, its directly visible from the spot I was digging. FURTHERMORE, there is a tree that blocks out all of the letters, except the Gh (I took a picture, but am at work, so I'll have to post it up later). The moons are the balls for the light poles down by the water. The table leg is the ironwork below the balls on the light poles (this is kind of debatable, but look at the outline, I think its pretty close). One of the symbols around the border of the tabard is a profile of one of the speaker towers in the park. The tower at the top is Coit Tower, a well-known SF landmark. There might be more I'm forgetting, but I'm going off of memory here.
From verse 7:
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Not far away
- Ghiradelli's Chocolates was originally located at Jackson Square. And if you've ever been in the place it does indeed smell quite sweet.
High posts are three
- There is a three-masted sailing ship in the harbor of the Aquatic Park
Education and Justice
For all to see
- The Maritime Museum directly adjacent to the Aquatic Park and Alcatraz out in the harbor
Sounds from the sky
- There are two elevated speaker towers for people to address crowds from atop of.
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
- The Golden Gate Bridge, which is also visible from parts of the Park
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
- In addition to the sailing ship, there is a paddlewheel steamship out in the harbor as well.
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept
- I worked under the assumption that the pole was one of the light poles down near the beach as they seemed to match the table leg pretty well. In addition a few of them were adjacent to some large steps.
So, I worked from the lightpole by the steps down to the beach where one could see Alcatraz, the Golden Gate, the Maritime Museum, one of the Speaker Towers, the three-masted sailing ship, the paddle wheeler, and the Ghiradelli's sign (which as I mentioned had a tree which obstructed all but the Gh). One of the poles met all of the criteria best.
And thus ends my expedition. Here's hoping that someone else can pick things up where I left off and get (the proper) permission to dig some more.
I'll try to remember to post up some pictures when I'm home.
And thanks to Jimerson for doing some preliminary looking for me.
Previous work -2007
MrBackstop
I've seen photos of the Smokestack still standing in '75 and '77. If it was not there when Priess was he could have used some photos from his time before or It could simply be I need a different Giant Pole.
As for the Pine Cone post tops, I suppose that could be what is in the image. That's an interesting find.
I'll share another interesting find with you. I have not seen anyone bring this up. Take a look at what everyone refers to as the "strawberry" in the image. That's not a strawberry, it shows the towers. Look just below her hands at what would be the top of the strawberry....blow it up nice and big. There are two points coming from left to right and two points going right to left. Each of these is the opening or "mouth" of the speaker towers. And as you look at the shape on the right you will notice what looks like a bird head (triangular shape) with a wide open mouth making noise. This is the East Speaker Tower in NMP.
Spiritr
Durian wrote::
NPS doc saying the smokestack was removed in '76. Doesn't mean Preiss might not have referenced it anyway (or that the doc is wrong or off by a bit)
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
Hi MrBackstop. Found an NPS doc saying the smokestack was removed in '76. Doesn't mean Preiss might not have referenced it anyway (or that the doc is wrong or off by a bit), but I'm still thinking the pole is the East speaker. Can't cut and paste from the doc for some reason, but it's on page 290 (I'm glad I'm getting some use from my tax dollars with all this searching, lol.):
https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_ ... ma/clr.pdf
There is a lot of great info in that document as well as some cool historic photos. So it could be that one of the towers is considered the Giant Pole or perhaps some other structure, I'll check it out some more but it doesn't change all the other clues that point to NMP.
erexere
I really like a lot of the ideas or possible matching being done on this image lately, but it's been difficult to follow what coinstraint or reason any object reference fits a function of the puzzle.
erexere
Thanks for the link. I took some time reading it. I like how you begin with a good set of cautious ground rules and then get into the thick of it. Lots of guesses and it much seems convincing to me. There are countless pitfalls in how We approach the verse or image. Good luck.
catherwood
I wouldn't use "Bay Area in general" as a theme at all. As a resident of the South Bay region, I am closer to Mt.Hamilton and the Lick Observatory than I am to SFO, let alone the Golden Gate. Landmarks beyond a 25-mile radius from San Francisco would be misleading; beyond 50 miles, useless; beyond 75 miles, well, bad puzzle design.
Spiritr
very well done, to show my appreciation of the hard work you've done,
hope you like it~
"
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
"
Spiritr
pay attention and look closely to these pics my friend
JoshCornell
catherwood wrote::
I wouldn't use "Bay Area in general" as a theme at all. As a resident of the South Bay region, I am closer to Mt.Hamilton and the Lick Observatory than I am to SFO, let alone the Golden Gate. Landmarks beyond a 25-mile radius from San Francisco would be misleading; beyond 50 miles, useless; beyond 75 miles, well, bad puzzle design.
i have one in mexico lol.
Doghousereiley
I just visited San Francisco
We went to Ghiradelli Square
I didn't smell anything
erexere
Maybe air smells sweet is suppose to have us think of, mouth and nose, how they work together to determine taste. In terms of geography or some structure, where in San Francisco do we have an opening Or passage (mouth) and a projection above or in front of it (nose)? Wherever is a place where the moth and nose are copperating to serve a single main function. Probably too generic of a thought, but maybe it helps steer us to the reason for the choice of words.
Spiritr
Doghousereiley wrote::
I just visited San Francisco
We went to Ghiradelli Square
I didn't smell anything
Try go at 6am every morning, on its back which is the front of Marit Museum, my freshman and sophomore years was in Galileo, 18 years ago
i smoke there every morning before class consider that corner is the only “blind spot” , and those fresh coco smell really is something you’ll remember for life. That and some Cali grand daddy purp to start a refreshing morning....Ironically It’s something I can do when I was a kid where now i just can’t do that when I’m at work
Spiritr
Doghousereiley wrote::
I just visited San Francisco
We went to Ghiradelli Square
I didn't smell anything
Try go at 6am every morning, on its back which is the front of Marit Museum, my freshman and sophomore years was in
Galileo
, 18 years ago
i smoke there every morning before class consider that corner is the only “blind spot” , and those fresh coco smell really is something you’ll remember for life. That and some Cali grand daddy purp to start a refreshing morning....Ironically It’s something I can do when I was a kid where now i just can’t do that when I’m at work
Spiritr
facing the ocean, which one is the one you posted? left? or right?
which side you predict the box is hidden at?
Spiritr
did a little search and it's heart breaking......
1989.....
erexere
When you say stand in the right position, can you explain what gets you to that place?
Spiritr
erexere wrote::
When you say stand in the right position, can you explain what gets you to that place?
to find an angle that match the image
erexere
Looking for a match may be a flawed approach without first having cause to be in that place.
I
've always liked how Fountain
of
Youth searchers first cite the conquistador as cause to find "The first chapter" written n a sign at the entrance.
So, what gets you to that spot in the first place that you might find something interesting like a match tonthe painting?
Spiritr
very unlikely someone will answer you this question other than me
for me, image 1
This! is where
I
will start
erexere
Looks like you have sought the columns.
Spiritr
Have you ever considered writing sci-fi novels or scripts?
I
honestly think you’re very good and very talented in that area
How all the clues will show up spiritually as one approach the spot, simply elegant yet brave!
I
like it!
And using the :% as compass and clock is crazy good, that’s some next level shit right there!
erexere
Durian,
Great work looking for identifiers.
I
think a lot
of
the items aren't half bad. There's a few that leave me scratching my head. Calling Ace is high a single point by definition seems hasty. Overall, not too shabby.
I
like the blog except it gets a little too sure
of
itself.
I
think we still need to work with the ideas.
Good luck!
erexere
Okay, but
I
don't question the definition,
I
question the hastiness
of
attributing the term to any other thing that fits the definition. Shouldn't it be better to get to the answer for why the puzzle calls for such a line?
I
'm totally unsure
of
how to proceed here, so take this with a grain
of
salt. Could it be that we have to think "poker", suggesting that we are looking for something to do with card playing or perhaps an actual fire place, as in a hot poker?
I
've had many other ideas in the past, but it's always a weak kind
of
fit. Could it be suggesting we look for a "King road", since the K card is near or closest to the Ace High in value? Or numerically, it's conceivable that Ace is high represents the number 14, so if this should be a street reference or golf course hole reference, then the nearest other thing would be the number 13 or 15.
I
kinda like the King idea.
MrBackstop
Sounds from the sky
- Speaker Towers in National Maritime Park
Near ace is high
- Polk Street.
Polk street ends North at the Maritime Museum right between the Speaker Towers. James Polk was the 11th President
of
the United States, there's your ace is high.
erexere
I
use to like that kind
of
thinking, Ace = 11 (in blackjack) Or 14 (in poker). To then apply that numeric to anything is only as good as a random act unless there's already some strong lean towards Presidents for this puzzle. Is that the case here?
Tamaari
I
was wondering if in any
of
the other paintings a dice was found?
I
vaguely remember reading that dice had been found among the images in other paintings. Also has anyone noticed what looks like the letter "M" in her curl slightly below the # 38 in her hair. Durian... to let you know that the "Guard Tower" you have as one
of
your points
of
three circled on Alcatraz, is actually the lighthouse.
I
had the privilege
of
being able to see this almost every day for 8 years as
I
worked for Alcatraz. The sunsets were to breathtaking looking out towards the Golden Gate Bridge. One
of
the things
I
miss about living in the city...
MrBackstop
erexere wrote::
I
use to like that kind
of
thinking, Ace = 11 (in blackjack) Or 14 (in poker). To then apply that numeric to anything is only as good as a random act unless there's already some strong lean towards Presidents for this puzzle. Is that the case here?
The "J" rose on the table and the vine to the right with the shape
of
a "3" is for Jefferson St. which is on the North side
of
NMP. Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President
of
the United States. Priess found a good way to work them into this Puzzle.
MrBackstop
Tamaari,
I
like your thinking with the Lighthouse on Alcatraz. That is definitely a giant pole but my first thought was the old smokestack that used to be standing at the SF Pumping station #2. Turns out that was removed in 1976 so depending on when Priess did this puzzle that stack may have been gone. While
I
was looking for an answer to Giant Pole Giant Step the only answers
I
came up with for the pole were Smokestack, Lighthouse or one
of
the Speaker Towers themselves.
MrBackstop
Regarding the letter "M" in her hair curl,
I
always took that to mean Maritime,...but then again, it could be a "W" depending on your interpretation.
MrBackstop
Durian, well done on all this good visual reference to your solve.
As for my "ace is high"....that is what I interpret James Polk to be. An ace that is low is a "one" in cards, an ace that is high is 11 in cards. I know you know that but the entire segment is about Polk. Near just means that Polks street is near the Speaker Towers at the NMP.
erexere
Durian, great job on the map outline. A problem which maltedfalcon brought to my attention a long time ago was that after you use up most of the lines getting from one place to another, you now have too little instruction remaining to isolate the dig spot. I suspect more is going on with these verses than just a long walkabout.
Diceycat
Kind of stumped here. How does Twain’s attention ( the steamboat) fit in with the direction of the jewel being behind the bleachers ? When it says “in the jewels direction is an object of Twain’s attention “.
Diceycat
Let me refine your theory if I may . Just a different way I might read it if this was the spot.
1.at stone walls door the air smells sweet = I’m thinking he is standing on beach street at the main entrance of Ghirardelli square
2.not far away high posts are 3 education and justice for all to see = so he is still standing there in the same spot and looking at Alcatraz and the other island
3.Sounds from the sky near ace is high = He’s still standing there and looking about and listening . Sounds could be the street cars or the speaker towers and again ace is high pick a street could be Polk for # 11 Ace is high.
4.running north but 1st across in jewels direction is an object of Twain’s attention = so you go north the jog to the right a bit you get to the speaker tower or when he says go across it could just be cross the street. Now if you stood at my stone walls door location and drew a line to the steamship location then the speaker tower would fall close to that line in the jewels direction.
5.giant pole giant step= speaker tower( maybe between the tower and the sequoia)
Just a thought on interpretation. Still gets you to NMP but a different dig location
So how do the crossed hands fit in to the location and the berry/ pinecone ?
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
Got it, re: Polk. Clever!
I'm curious about the rest of your solve? Are you and I both still ending up at the wall near the blue tiles and the east bleachers? I get to the speaker tower near the end (giant pole), but you get there earlier (sounds from the sky). Where are you ending up, and how?
Also, I may be taking a trip to SF in a month. If not, my wife will be... I'll get a bunch of good photos around the speakers/bleachers, Maritime Museum, etc. Do you have any requests?
I'm going to post my solve here shortly. Still checking a couple things out and yes, I am definitely in the middle of National Maritime Park. My solve just took a different route starting at Pier 43.
Spiritr
can anyone with the actual book confirm that right between C and D, from the left, there's a horizontal line going across?
intrigued
I have a copy. There is a line, but it looks to be a printing issue and not part of the painted image.
Spiritr
intrigued wrote::
I have a copy. There is a line, but it looks to be a printing issue and not part of the painted image.
And your copy was original right? not the kindle or whatever it's called version.
There IS a line? Right?
Spiritr
and also is this a right or left page?
what image is behind this page, and what's next to this page?
Thanks for really looking into it btw, much appreciated.
maltedfalcon
The original image has a "fold" line there (you can see it on the TV show)
although I don't think it is a fold line. I think the original painting was done on a 24x36 (canvas) posterboard.
and the area above the line is actually a second added piece of posterboard used to extend the "canvas"
Spiritr
maltedfalcon wrote::
The original image has a "fold" line there (you can see it on the TV show)
although I don't think it is a fold line. I think the original painting was done on a 24x36 (canvas) posterboard.
and the area above the line is actually a second added piece of posterboard used to extend the "canvas"
what TV show? EU S4, Ep4?
No, impossible, only reason to add a poster board on top of a canvas was to create this arch top shape frame.
If what you suggest is the case, how come we don't see a line in image12 ?
so I saw this pdf with photos of the original 1892 hardcover version form the library.
umm.........interesting
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
what TV show? EU S4, Ep4?
No, impossible, only reason to add a poster board on top of a canvas was to create this arch top shape frame.
If what you suggest is the case, how come we don't see a line in image12 ?
so I saw this pdf with photos of the original 1892 hardcover version form the library.
umm.........interesting
I suspect he learned from the first painting that he would need to paint smaller or use a bigger canvas... also we know that the paintings were not all the same size.
if it wasn't added then it was simply folded. (added seems more likely to me...)
FYI there was no original hardcover edition.
it was a trade paperback only
Spiritr
Thanks you, great info.
Mister EZ
I want an 1892 hardcover version....
Spiritr
if you really have one at that time.....
will you tear out a page if instructed to?
JamesV
maltedfalcon wrote::
FYI there was no original hardcover edition.
it was a trade paperback only
My 1982 copy is definitely a hardcover... but now you've got me thinking that it might be a re-bound trade paperback.
maltedfalcon
JamesV wrote::
My 1982 copy is definitely a hardcover... but now you've got me thinking that it might be a re-bound trade paperback.
check the isbn - 0-553-01408-0
was a trade paper - if yours is that it started life as a paperback
but actually what I think it is is before it was re-published in 2015, somebody had scanned it and was selling Print on Demand versions. so I think your hardback is a bootleg POD copy of the original..
JamesV
MF, awesome information-- thank you! Same ISBN for sure, but it's still hard to believe this one might be a pirated copy b/c the image quality is so high. I'll have a closer look at the cover, binding, etc. this week to see if I can tell for sure.
Although, if I really have been working this puzzle from a vintage "hot" copy, that's actually pretty cool!
Spiritr
it's the other way around, that's actually pretty sad.
MrBackstop
So last week I asked about our Russian Lady and the question I have now is for those who have solves in GGP. If Preiss had stated he did not bury a casque in Central Park for the New York Image, why do you think he would have buried a casque in San Francisco's "Central Park"?
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
So last week I asked about our Russian Lady and the question I have now is for those who have solves in GGP. If Preiss had stated he did not bury a casque i Central Park for the New York Image, why do you think he would have buried a casque in San Francisco's "Central Park"?
Well the most obvious reason is there is no image of central park in the NY image,
the 2nd being he did not say it was not in golden Gate Park.
The 3rd being all the obvious references in the image to parts of golden gate park.
maltedfalcon
durian
the question was why ggpark when not central park
not is the casque in goldengate park
the answer to that is of course it’s not
i did see where you saw the sillohuettes and images you mentioned
but i dont see them
perhaps others do
no worries just go dig it up!
Spiritr
I tried my best my friend, people are just too blind to see it, it's all " silhouette " and "clearly", let me know if I missed anything~
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17Uip5eJKZVZDKlL2E5vVJjLRmD4q01Uq
maltedfalcon
Spirtr
Welcome to the weird and funny world of pareidolia
as far as your photoshop work, it is excellent and you have a good eye and talent for layout
remember this is one of the easy puzzles.
it it were really this obvious somebody would have got it years ago.
Not me- I was never one the ones at the maritime park.
but there were quite a few looking there
The basic reason I (personal opinion here) think this is wrong, is as many clues as you "see"
they don't culminate in an exact spot.
There are no pictures of something you would see, just a few feet from the casque (the fence/fixture) the wall/stones
lots of places in Golden gate park have a mass of images and a bunch of verse clues like this. They all turn out to be dead ends
cause while you can get 90-95% there, its really not a 100% match. and that happens time and again
that's the simple reason why this has taken so many years.
Please please, prove me wrong and dig up the casque
! I hope someone does soon!
MrBackstop
maltedfalcon wrote::
Well the most obvious reason is there is no image of central park in the NY image,
the 2nd being he did not say it was not in golden Gate Park.
The 3rd being all the obvious references in the image to parts of golden gate park.
Got it. And I definitely agree with your 2nd and 3rd reasons.
I just do not see GGP as the image in the artwork. It certainly has the same shape and the woman's crossed arms are compelling. As you know, I see her as a representation of Russian Hill and her crossed arms as the Belt Railroad. I see the shape of the Native Plant Garden in NMP as well as the shape of GGP.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Hi Malted,
I understand what Mr. Backstop's question is. I simply commented on your assertion that their are many clues pointing to GGP. I just don't think there are any. I think a lot of people
want
it to be in GGP because it is the largest park in the City, and therefore it must be there. I think that is essentially what Mr. Backstop is getting at... The roughly rectangular pattern of the woman's dress—with a very slight flare in the lower right—lends support to the idea the casque is in GGP. But other than that, I don't see much evidence. Where is the park's second and larger "flare" around Kezar? Where is the panhandle? Or either a map or image of any of the park's features? And the neckline doesn't match anything in the park. I'm willing to cut the artist a lot of slack in hiding a map in the image. No panhandle included? I get that. But the Great Highway runs essentially straight past the park with a slight bend, yet it's depicted as making four ninety degree turns around the park. To what purpose in the puzzle? If we are to believe that a very slight flare that may not even have been intentional is a big clue, then what are we to make of such a treatment of the Great Highway? Certainly the hard angles of the neckline is a bigger clue than a slight drift of the artist's hand when painting a dress?
And what about the woman's shoulders, depicted with the same blue dots as the larger rectangle? Are these adjunct parks? Are these hidden parks? Do I need a special pass from Hogwarts to visit them?
And why according to the GGP theories are so many things in the image reversed? For what purpose? When I look at this puzzle from the perspective of GGP, I see endless questions, with very few answers. This lends itself to theories that really stretch credulity, as they try to find images outside of the painting to support ideas on where in the park the casque might be buried. The inherent problem with the casque being in GGP is that we are looking at a painting depicting Alcatraz and the waterfront, not GGP. One has to tune out all the rocks and water and distant islands and references to cable cars and boats to form a theory of GGP.
Regarding Aquatic Park, there do appear to be good clues that might tell one where to dig, but unfortunately, it's not as easy as "just go dig it up." Next time I'm in SF (hopefully about three months), I'll investigate the site and see if I can find exactly where the clues point to dig. Then, assuming I can find an extremely likely spot supported by the image, I'll try to pitch it to NPS. But I don't think we should hold our breath. It is unlikely they will approve a dig regardless. The good news is that the area hasn't really changed much, so if the casque is there (and the bigger "if": did Preiss do a good and exact job with the clues?) it is probably recoverable.
Finally, I've searched this board, and it does not appear that aside from probing the beach anyone has dug in Aquatic Park. Certainly some folks have picked up on many of the same clues I have, but I don't think any of them used the clock/compass and the Ghirardelli sign as I believe the artist intended. Without these clues, there does not appear to be much in image or verse to give you an exact dig spot. At any rate, Aquatic Park has definitely, at least on this board, been largely overlooked...
In reverse order, the reason no one has dug, is no one (after years of looking carefully) has found a logical dig spot that fits the clues.
Be very careful of saying things like "as [] the artist intended" you don't really know that and it is just about guaranteed to lead you astray.
I understand you don't think ggpark is a match for the image at all which is fine, I cant show you the Golden Gate park map with the upper case G and lower case h but that's not my problem, I've seen it, I am not doing your research. but simply say the park outline on the map perfectly matched the outline of the dress, from the great highway to kezar, like it was traced. the map did not have the panhandle or the extra flares. but it had many many features that matched the swirls of the dragon, take or leave that as you will . In the map (although the great highway is straight,) it showed as a curved line like the neckline, -
anyway I've seen it I don't need to find it again.
if you are going to be a stickler for accuracy then you cant use Gh for Ghirardelli as the font definitely does not match.
So are we going for strict tracing or not?
we agree it is not in golden gate park but you can't dismiss it. or do you have a alternate iconic image water tower/transit building image for SF
and we have shown there is a method to get from the iconic image to the start of the verse. in multiple image/verse combos
you are ignoring this step and others and treating SF as a stand alone puzzle. instead of applying the methods we learned elsewhere
As far as permits, SF wants this found badly, so if your pitch is turned down, you arent doing a very good job of "selling it" to them. they don't want random guesses they want solves that do make sense though.
I understand you might not have your spot at this point and need to be on site to find it, that is totally logical
Also I know you have said the tabletop is a perfect match for the turntable. its not.. look under the watch and you will see part of a central structure (behind the watch) that is not on any cablecar turntable, but was a central feature in a fountain that existed in 1981.
MrBackstop
My revised dig spot from a couple months ago is now this:
The landscaped area in National Maritime Park that lines up with the Ghirardelli Clock Tower and the East Speaker Tower. This is the curved landscaping to the West of Larkin St. and South of the East Speaker Tower. It has a curved triangular shape. To give yourself an "X" marks the spot, line up the Flag Pole on the Maritime Museum (the top has a ball on it like many flag poles do, that looks like the pearl in Image 1) with the old location of the Turntable. Remember the turntable used to be on the other side of what I call the Circus Tent shelter. These two lines will give you an "X" in that landscaped area.
I noticed something awhile back that I couldn't figure out about the clock on the table. It is slightly askew to the left, it does not line up straight from top to bottom. It is set at six o'clock and that tell's us that once you are standing in the correct spot you will be at six o'clock. If you stand on my dig spot the turntable, think cable car bell on top of the clock, is just slightly off from lining up perfectly with the Native Plant Garden when connecting it in a line to the Maritime Museum Flagpole.
Remember the upside down IV on the bathrobe? I line that up with the East Speaker Tower which is the head of the Dragon.
The part of the verse that ends Giant pole Giant step I believe is covered by the Speaker Tower and Preiss' playing around with the SF Giants. Remember, in the Boston verse the term step was used to mean street block. I don't believe it means Giant Block by any means. I used the "6" and the Large "S" on the sea monster to mean 6 steps or 6 blocks from my starting point at Pier 43. I believe BP used Giant in a creative way to mean Giant pole (East Speaker Tower) and Giant step (distance from tower to the buried casque).
MrBackstop
The area I'm talking about is this bushy area to the left of the Speaker Tower.
hxxp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0Fqi4lafUR4/T ... 1%2529.JPG
Goonie68
I will through my hat into the ring here...
Looking at both Solved puzzles, there is a consistent pattern with the two. Both have an Iconic image where the puzzle starts. From that image it brings you to the beginning of the verse. In both there is a distance between Iconic image and the start of the verse. This is part of the walking tour, in the proposed solutions from which I can tell Gh ( Ghirardelli is the Iconic image) and from that is where the puzzle starts? From start to finish is a few blocks from each other? This is would not be consistent from the other two solved puzzles. I do see the connection to Gh and the air smells sweet, but I can also see it to be G (Green) h (house) that can refer to the Conservatory of Flowers, this is a famous Green house in GGP. Golden Gate park is true West and passage from the book mentions "in the West were golden beaches" GGP sits on the edge of the west with adjacent ocean beach. Aquatic Park is true North. There are many other connections to GGP 3 that stand out with out doing any research or detective work.
1. High Posts are three: Sutro Towers 3 posts together which can be seen from almost anywhere in the park. There is no need to connect 3 different post to get three high posts.
2. Near ace is high : Ace meaning 1 every definition under ace is meaning 1, high meaning elevated. Hwy 1 is Golden Gate Bridge (elevated) which ties into GGP.
3. The Rose : There is no guessing here, GGP has a Rose garden, no overlay needed or explanation to get us to understand the meaning. Very simple.
The research I have done all points to GGP Now I could be totally wrong that this is not the correct park, but I have the same passion that others have for there solutions. I can appreciate the work that others have done here with passion and confidence and that is what is needed to find the next casque.
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
I will through my hat into the ring here...
Looking at both Solved puzzles, there is a consistent pattern with the two. Both have an Iconic image where the puzzle starts. From that image it brings you to the beginning of the verse. In both there is a distance between Iconic image and the start of the verse. This is part of the walking tour, in the proposed solutions from which I can tell Gh ( Ghirardelli is the Iconic image) and from that is where the puzzle starts? From start to finish is a few blocks from each other? This is would not be consistent from the other two solved puzzles. I do see the connection to Gh and the air smells sweet, but I can also see it to be G (Green) h (house) that can refer to the Conservatory of Flowers, this is a famous Green house in GGP. Golden Gate park is true West and passage from the book mentions "in the West were golden beaches" GGP sits on the edge of the west with adjacent ocean beach. Aquatic Park is true North. There are many other connections to GGP 3 that stand out with out doing any research or detective work.
1. High Posts are three: Sutro Towers 3 posts together which can be seen from almost anywhere in the park. There is no need to connect 3 different post to get three high posts.
2. Near ace is high : Ace meaning 1 every definition under ace is meaning 1, high meaning elevated. Hwy 1 is Golden Gate Bridge (elevated) which ties into GGP.
3. The Rose : There is no guessing here, GGP has a Rose garden, no overlay needed or explanation to get us to understand
the meaning. Very simple.
The research I have done all points to GGP Now I could be totally wrong that this is not the correct park, but I have the same passion that others have for there solutions. I can appreciate the work that others have done here with passion and confidence and that is what is needed to find the next casque.
Let me reiterate: my starting point is Pier 43.
hxxp://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... tedIndex=9
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Pier 43 is where prisoners for Alcatraz would be taken on the Belt Railroad to be loaded onto police boats and then to Alcatraz. Likewise, when prisoners had served there sentence they would be taken to Pier 43 and smell the sweet air of freedom. This verse has nothing to do with Ghirardelli.
High posts are three: the Balclutha used to be docked at Pier 43
Near ace is high: everyone knows that a high ace means 11. Ace is high in this case means 11 and 11 means Polk Street. The 11th President of the the United States was James Polk and Polk Street ends at the Maritime Museum near the Speaker Towers.
The rose may have a couple meanings but understand the simple meaning first, June is the sixth month of the year and it's flower is a rose. The clock on the table indicates 6:00 meaning June.
Goonie68
The word "ace" comes from the Old French word as (from Latin 'as') meaning 'a unit as by definition, (Historically, the ace had a low value) Meaning 1 a pip is 1, a die is 1, if your playing cards then yes ace can be 11, but for me the way I see it is as 1.
As for the image showing us a 1, you can take it as you see it, but there is the roman numeral 1 on either side of the women.
Durian (That aside, I also don't understand why we need a walking tour to the puzzles? In Chicago, you start "Where M and B are set in stone," (supported by the image)
Actually the puzzle starts at the Water Tower in Chicago (image illustration) and you are intended to walk to reach the M & B , where the verse starts.
Cleveland is the same method, You start at the Terminal Tower,(image illustration) then you take Euclid street to Ford street to the park. This shows you the direction you are to take to the correct park. Not everything in the puzzle represents something you would have to find then associate with your surroundings. Both Chicago and Cleveland have objects in the illustration that you do not need see to solve the puzzle. Where is the centaur in the gardens in Cleveland? Where is Lincoln in the illustration in Chicago?
Do you see a brush in the Chicago illustration? The word brush represents the Art institute there is no Art building in the illustration. My point is that you don't need it to be in the illustration to connect it to the verse. Ace is high = meaning 1 is above you see this with how HWY runs through the park and also on the Golden Gate Bridge being HWY 1.
The woman's face resembles the Sphinx statute
The number 6 in the middle of the dragon represents the 6 gardens in the park. Again the Rose is a garden That is physical and a match for the park.
The dragon head matches the phoenix above the Senior Center (which is above a door which has stone walls)
The outline of the dress with the arms crossed over look like a cross ( Praybrook cross) with the word First on it verse has the word first and cross ,"First across"
Her sleeves are blocks (shape) surround the park, 38 total
I don't see the speaker tower in the illustration, and if that was the object that tells us that this IS the spot it would be a Clear depiction of the object not hidden in the background, Both solved puzzles have a clear representation of the object that is needed to tell you that you are IN the correct area.
erexere
I'm changing my views on the number of moons being a possible indication of the Apollo 11 moon landing. It seems like a strong visual idea for whatever reason.
MrBackstop
Guys, the top part of the Dragon Is the Speaker Tower. And for an even smaller look go to what everyone refers to as the strawberry. It's not a Strawberry but a graphic depiction of the two speaker towers facing each other. You can see the 2 pronged openings of the speaker tower looking like a bird's head and beak with the movement of sound coming out.
Here's another Speaker Tower Clue:
If you are standing on the East side of the Turntable facing toward the circus tent shelter, the East Speaker Tower is above the Cablecar Turnaround to the right.
Look at the Image and notice the clock on the Turntable. That clock has the Bell representing the Cablecar. Just above the bell to the right way is a leaf in the shape of human lips. These lips represent the Speaker Tower in an ingenious way.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
3. Do you really need to go for a walk? Is this indeed, as you say, intended? Seems you can solve the puzzle just fine from finding the starting point in verse and image. The walk is absolutely not central to solving the puzzle. "The walk theory," is just that, potentially totally viable, but as yet unproven. Maybe?
4. I don't believe the dragon depicted is a "match" for anything in GGP, anymore than it is a match for the two dragons on the Eureka. It's a dragon as depicted by the artist. Unless you can find it's more or less exact match or tie it to something meaningful in the verse, it's just a dragon, representative of China. An eighteenth century steamboat is easily something Twain can be associated with. I don't know what in image or verse can be associated with a senior center.
5. I'm sorry, but a rose is only a physical match for any rose—in a garden or not. The rest is loosely tied together conjecture, IMO.
6. It does appear to me that one of the speaker towers is in the image. I'll have to be on location to prove this by getting a photo at the correct angle. In the meantime, since you justifiably want something front and center to tell you where to dig, consider this: At the wall in Aquatic Park overlooking the expanse of water with Alcatraz, islands, mountains in the distance, the Ghirardelli sign behind you, etc. you will find over 1,600 blue tiles. Right there. We have tiles that could easily be inspiration for the dress, sitting right there within a few feet of the wall, from which you can see Alcatraz and the bay. Seems from the painting like maybe this should be a place of interest...
Now some questions for you:
1. Why do the woman's fingers mimic the pointing of the vines around the table? Seems intentional?
2. Why does she appear to also operate as a clock, with two pointed hands and a series of Roman numerals laid out as a clock would lay them out, complete with one upside down numeral as appropriate? This seems clearly intentional as well. Seems to me any solve needs to explain this.
3. Were is capital J Justice in GGP?
4. Where is the smoking gun image you seek in GGP? People have been digging up GGP all over the place, with a lot less evidence than Aquatic Parks' wall, view, proximity to the cable car turnaround, and all those blue tiles a stone's throw from Ghirardelli.
Durian,
I am all good with a good debate and take nothing personally
3. Yes it is important to the puzzle to confirm the starting point of the verse via the Iconic image and the correct path you take. This was done with both solved puzzles. Why would SF be different?
4. IMO the dragon above the door at the senior center connects you to the stone wall's door, you don't need the building to tell you that you are in the correct spot. The door in the stone wall and the dragon above gives you a connection to image and verse. As for the dragon in the Eureka , what part of the verse tells you to go into the ship go to the engine room and find the clock and dragon?
5. In the illustration you have a very pronounce Rose, it stands out because of it's color against the darker background and larger then almost anything in the image, this is a focal point in the illustration. To me with a rose in the illustration and a ROSE Garden in the park are a 100% match. The rose is specific to the ONE garden not just any garden with flowers in it, the garden is dedicated to the ROSE.
6. IF you have to take a picture at an angle to get you too see the speaker and to match it to the illustration, then you might be working to hard, Chicago and Cleveland you did not have to do any manipulation of the main object you are to see at the dig location.
1. Her fingers are pointing to lines between the blocks indicating the math you use to find your x spot.
2. If all the numbers that are on a clock are present around the dress then I could by she is a clock, but why would there be a clock on a table then her to be a clock also? I don't see her as a clock.
3. There is no Capital E or J to physically see as a sign, to me the Education and Justice are two profession Teach and Lawyer. These profession would be capitalized when using them. Karl Marx was an Educator and a Lawyer both professions would be capitalized. In the book under corporate Giants it reference Karl Marx, GGP has a Marx meadow...for all to see. The same spelling as Karl as the meadow...coincidence?
4. Smoking Gun is the ROSE. No guess work here.
The reason no one has found the casuqe because they have the clues wrong, and until recently I believe MF did the most work in GGP and not much digging was done by other people, it is only in the last 6 months after the airing of Expedition Unknown that brought an influx of people to the hunt, and people are still trying to figure out how to put all this together.
maltedfalcon
a perfect photographic match doesnt count for much
there was that time in boston they found that bridge arch with the lines and crack that
perfectly matched the painting
amazing exact match, everybody was excited
til we realized the bridge was only afew years old
still it was picture perfect
find a casque not a photo
JoshCornell
did maltedfalcon just say its not in ggp? lollll literally everything points you to ggp. or you dont know what youre doing and are seriously forcing everything to fit your assumed guess.
maltedfalcon
JoshCornell wrote::
did maltedfalcon just say its not in ggp? lollll literally everything points you to ggp. or you dont know what youre doing and are seriously forcing everything to fit your assumed guess.
As evidenced by your successful digs.
maskit
Durian wrote::
Looking at the image, I think it's pretty clear the dig spot is against a low wall (like the one the woman is standing in front of) and near the 1,600+ blue tiles, like the tiles that make up the dragon in the dress. I think this was essentially one of the photos Preiss gave JPP for the painting:
Durian, I like the comparison to the squares in the woman’s sleeves a lot, but since you are calling them “tiles”, I’m not sure you understand what they are. These are actually skylights for the lower level of the museum. This level runs under the entire area, including the bleachers. According to page 12 of this report, the soil is only 2 feet deep.
https://archive.org/details/AquaticPark ... FocusedHSR
In 2006 the museum closed for 3 years and was completely refurbished. During this time, the skylights were replaced, but every effort was made to have them match the originals. The bleachers were redone and the lawn and the shrubs were replanted, including the ones along that top wall. Also, a new irrigation system was installed.
Here is more information
hxxp://www.ournationalparks.us/west/san ... time_park/
This photo shows the repair work on the east bleachers. There’s your white wall along the top. See? There just doesn’t seem to be much room for anything to be buried between the top and lower level.
I’m sure a great deal of this area must have been dug up during those 3 years. The report I linked above suggests that it would be necessary to remove 1 foot of soil from the lawn during the renovations. It is still possible that a casque could be buried there, I suppose, but with all the changes, it could easily have been uncovered or damaged during that time.
Here is the landscaping company’s website. Maybe they could give you some more information. Perhaps they found an odd box (or pieces of one) and just didn’t know what to make of it.
https://pgadesign.com/projects/san-fran ... me-museum/
Spiritr
now you have my respect , besides all the thoughtful solutions, this positive attitude is priceless.
SF is huge, have you ever consider the SF ZOO?
it's on
G
reat
H
wy, it has a water fall, and Dahlia garden full of roses, next to a REAL cable car in the children's playground. stone wall everywhere, it has more statues than anywhere in SF.
Very Chinese related, Su Lin was the first ever that come to America, landing in San Francisco 80 years ago. In case you don't know, Chinese call the pandas "National Treasure"
Also we have this famous Blue Snake, and so many things I'm sure you could come up with a brilliant solution out of.
most importantly , that shape of the zoo....
I just don't want to pay the entrance fee that's why I forfeit it
Hey, maybe you see things we don't, who knows,
I ain't kidding, look
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Spiritr, you've id'd some interesting shapes at the zoo to play with for sure. I've never considered it, but I'll take a look at one point. Right now, AP is giving me more than enough to handle, and making my head hurt, lol. One interesting thing about the zoo: I bet they've got a
real
dragon caged up somewhere, though it probably lacks wings.
Of course it is a possibility, but remember not one of the pictures you posted shows the zoo the way it was in 1981
and umm that cable car/train, wasn't that in golden gate park?
Spiritr
You were right, they were once in sutro and moved to the zoo on Aug 19, 1957 as features in the Children playground.
Spiritr
come on bro, I'm sure you can figure something out , maybe it's not Wings, it's fins!
Goonie68
how do i delete an account
I think this is a better match has the same pattern layered rock.
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
Mr. Backstop (and anyone else), now that the bleacher wall is out, what do you think of this:
This is the plaque commemorating the first outside exploration of SF Bay. It's a giant step from the speaker. Seen from the speaker it does appear to have the basic outline of the formation in the image, which I should note looks very different from the rest of the "rocks." Maybe because we're supposed to give it special attention? From an almost straight down perspective, the plaque looks like this:
Not sure how much of a cleft it really has (if any), or if it's just an optical illusion from the play of rock coloration, texture and the plaque. I've really got to get on site and poke around!
BTW, Mr. Backstop, I don't remember if I mentioned this regarding your solve, but I believe Pier 43 was an entry point to the mainland for immigrants from Angel Island...
That is a good eye on your part. I haven't really noticed anyone bringing up the San Carlos plaque. When I saw it I thought it would be a good fit for a Giant step but the realized it didn't fall within my "x marks the spot" area. But it could certainly be around that stone.
I also considered the side of the tower as a dig spot and here's why. The Speaker Tower itself is a Giant pole AND a Giant step. The ladder to get to the top of the tower is your Giant step. There is about 2-3 feet of dirt depth around the base but what concerns me is any electrical lines. Would BP have buried it next to the Tower? Perhaps he knew where electric lines were buried before digging.
But like I mentioned in my dig spot, I have a pretty small area for "x marks the spot". One of the visual clues in the image I like is the pearl sitting on our Russian woman's neck. If her nicely shaped oval head indicates the Maritime Museum, then the pearl on her neck would line up very nicely to that "neck" of landscaping to the South of the East Speaker Tower.
Pier 43 was definitely an important door. The smell of sweet freedom for immigrants coming to our country huh?
maltedfalcon
MrBackstop wrote::
One of the visual clues in the image I like is the pearl sitting on our Russian woman's neck. If her nicely shaped oval head indicates the Maritime Museum, then the pearl on her neck would line up very nicely to that "neck" of landscaping to the South of the East Speaker Tower.
That would be a great clue in a different treasure hunt, but so far none of the placements of the gems in the images, has any connection to the location of the casque.
at least in this treasure hunt.
The same is true for using the clock hands as a bearing or direction.
The nearest thing to an exception for that is NY using the time as a function of steps.
It is very easy to pick and choose clues that seem to line up, it is much more difficult when you try to make those clues work like they do in the found casque solves.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
Could be? I'd like it better if it had a view of Alcatraz and you took a cable car to reach it.
Sorry Durian it's in GGP. You do take a cable car to the park, well half way anyways in my theory.
davinci4
Hi All. Just a quick question. Any past discussion as to the meaning of the symbols encompassing the border? Nothing really inciteful on the wiki other than the obvious mention of the Ying-yang symbol.
Goonie68
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just a quick question. Any past discussion as to the meaning of the symbols encompassing the border? Nothing really inciteful on the wiki other than the obvious mention of the Ying-yang symbol.
I believe them to be a map, visual symbols that you see as you work your way to the start of the verse.
maltedfalcon
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just a quick question. Any past discussion as to the meaning of the symbols encompassing the border? Nothing really inciteful on the wiki other than the obvious mention of the Ying-yang symbol.
people have tried to individually identify each symbol
and at various places tried to find the symbol at the location.
This brings up the question, is absolutely everything in the image a clue?
davinci4
Anything significant correlation on the ground in SF? I had heard something briefly mentioned in the podcast about Portsmouth Square??? The only reason I bring them up is that they are very detailed and ‘seem’ very intentional. After reading discussions about imagery of American presidents, cable cars etc. just surprised these symbols haven’t had more attention. You are correct, though, they could be nothing.
maltedfalcon
davinci4 wrote::
Anything significant correlation on the ground in SF? I had heard something briefly mentioned in the podcast about Portsmouth Square??? The only reason I bring them up is that they are very detailed and ‘seem’ very intentional. After reading discussions about imagery of American presidents, cable cars etc. just surprised these symbols haven’t had more attention. You are correct, though, they could be nothing.
The three that I found in portsmouth square (or near it) were the 3balls(triangle) on a jewelry store sign accross the street, the yin/yan symbols on jewelry in the window of the shop and the up/down buttons on the elevator in the square. but as I said on the podcast... pretty weak.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
The two squares and the circle and triangle are USGS symbols. IMO clearly representing the three high posts on Alcatraz (water tower, powerplant smokestack, and lighthouse), and the peak of Mt. Livermore on
Angel
Island.
I am trying to verify this claim and I can't find them in the list of USGS symbols. I must have a truncated list of symbols. Where did you find them and what do they represent on usgs maps?
and then how do those symbols "clearly represent" the items you list?
here's links to the ones I found....
https://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/TopographicMa ... ymbols.pdf
https://nationalmap.gov/ustopo/images/U ... ymbols.pdf
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
The two squares and the circle and triangle are USGS symbols. IMO clearly representing the three high posts on Alcatraz (water tower, powerplant smokestack, and lighthouse), and the peak of Mt. Livermore on Angel Island.
I am trying to verify this claim and I can't find them in the list of USGS symbols. I must have a truncated list of symbols. Where did you find them and what do they represent on usgs maps?
and then how do those symbols "clearly represent" the items you list?
here's links to the ones I found....
https://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/TopographicMa ... ymbols.pdf
https://nationalmap.gov/ustopo/images/U ... ymbols.pdf
Goonie68
I have seen that same guide, and the mark for water tower is a circle with lines in it, I don't see that with any of the symbols in the dress. Also the triangle that is in the USGS does not have a dot in the middle....is there different symbols from the USGS? The symbol in the illustration is a triangle with dot in center.
davinci4
The circle with the dot also represents the sun (see TGAT thread). Interestingly, this symbol is part of Chinese Oracle Bone Script, although none of the other symbols appear to be a match to those types of characters..MaltedFalcon, any pics of the Portsmouth Square symbols??
MrBackstop
davinci4 wrote::
Hi All. Just a quick question. Any past discussion as to the meaning of the symbols encompassing the border? Nothing really inciteful on the wiki other than the obvious mention of the Ying-yang symbol.
I see the symbols like this:
Yin Yang - San Francisco Pumping station #2 at the Aquatic Pier
Upside down VI - the six on the Ghirardelli Clock
First letter "A" - BUENA VISTA CAFE sign on the restaurants glass
Second letter "A" - Argonaut Hotel
X - in the logo of the South End Rowing Club at on Jefferson across the street....here's whats on their building
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
3 circles in a triangular shape - No Idea
Up and Down Triangles - Shapes of the spaces underneath the supports of the Golden Gate Bridge
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
The upside down looking V in a square - that simply looks like the shape of a mast on a ship but the square is confusing.....too much of a stretch for me.
The symbol at the bottom right - could be a set of windows on a number of buildings around NMP
Two half circles at bottom - I have blown this up over and over and all I can see is two heads facing each other. I'd like to say it is the turn table but it looks more like a graphic representation of two heads facing each other. Perhaps referencing the two Speaker Towers....? What also interests me is that below the center of those two heads is a tiny black circle in the gold trim and from what I've seen that is not a printing mistake. I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed it?
maltedfalcon
davinci4 wrote::
The circle with the dot also represents the sun (see TGAT thread). Interestingly, this symbol is part of Chinese Oracle Bone Script, although none of the other symbols appear to be a match to those types of characters..MaltedFalcon, any pics of the Portsmouth Square symbols??
oh heck no, that was before celphones had cameras....
erexere
Circle and dot? Sounds like the Sun symbol on an Astrological chart.
Goonie68
https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/TRNOS88NGS19.pdf
Found this PDF on symbols , only explanation of the triangle with a dot but no square
MrBackstop
maltedfalcon wrote::
That would be a great clue in a different treasure hunt, but so far none of the placements of the gems in the images, has any connection to the location of the casque.
at least in this treasure hunt.
The same is true for using the clock hands as a bearing or direction.
The nearest thing to an exception for that is NY using the time as a function of steps.
It is very easy to pick and choose clues that seem to line up, it is much more difficult when you try to make those clues work like they do in the found casque solves.
I would have to disagree with you on this. I think Cleveland is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
If you look at Image 4 we see the jewel in the center of the artwork itself and on top of that is is above the ground people use to walk around the park. The circular ball with the triangle points to the ball and toward the location in the planter box. That box is in the central part of the Greek Cultural Garden and visually in the central part of Image 4. The view is telling you where the jewel was located once you were in the right spot.
And like Durian had mentioned, I don't think this won't change somewhat from Image to Image but from what I've been studying in my solves, the location on the Image Artwork is a clue as to where the casque may be.
davinci4
MrBackstop, great stuff with the symbols. I especially like the “A” on the Argonaut Hotel, fantastic!
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Squares with dots =
Land grant, homestead, mineral, or other special survey monument.
It's a catch all a surveyor or map-maker might use for things they want to note, but for which there is not an established symbol.
Circle =
Tanks
—often depicted black for oil or blue for water.
Triangle =
Horizontal control
—used for surveying. Mountain peaks or hilltops are commonly used for this purpose. Plus, outside of USGS symbols, a triangle is pretty much the standard mark map-makers use to denote peaks.
Why do I think the meaning of these are clear?
I don't know why,
I guess I was looking for Circle with dot, Triangle with dot and Square with dot. They don't exist as usgs symbols
my assumption being he would use the exact symbol if he were actually referencing a map symbol.
as we know this was supposed to be one of the easy ones. If he were including a reference hidden like that, I can't see him disguising it also.
we see in Chicago and Cleveland he can make the images exactly the way he wants them.
mlsinstl
MrBackstop wrote::
I see the symbols like this:
Yin Yang - San Francisco Pumping station #2 at the Aquatic Pier
Upside down VI - the six on the Ghirardelli Clock
First letter "A" - BUENA VISTA CAFE sign on the restaurants glass
Second letter "A" - Argonaut Hotel
X - in the logo of the South End Rowing Club at on Jefferson across the street....here's whats on their building
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
3 circles in a triangular shape - No Idea
Up and Down Triangles - Shapes of the spaces underneath the supports of the Golden Gate Bridge
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
The upside down looking V in a square - that simply looks like the shape of a mast on a ship but the square is confusing.....too much of a stretch for me.
The symbol at the bottom right - could be a set of windows on a number of buildings around NMP
Two half circles at bottom - I have blown this up over and over and all I can see is two heads facing each other. I'd like to say it is the turn table but it looks more like a graphic representation of two heads facing each other. Perhaps referencing the two Speaker Towers....? What also interests me is that below the center of those two heads is a tiny black circle in the gold trim and from what I've seen that is not a printing mistake. I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed it?
Or, maybe the two half circles at bottom, when joined together, make a whole -- as in hole -- as in place to dig.
mlsinstl
MrBackstop wrote::
I see the symbols like this:
Yin Yang - San Francisco Pumping station #2 at the Aquatic Pier
Upside down VI - the six on the Ghirardelli Clock
First letter "A" - BUENA VISTA CAFE sign on the restaurants glass
Second letter "A" - Argonaut Hotel
X - in the logo of the South End Rowing Club at on Jefferson across the street....here's whats on their building
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
3 circles in a triangular shape - No Idea
Up and Down Triangles - Shapes of the spaces underneath the supports of the Golden Gate Bridge
hxxp://www.hmdb.org/Photos2/227/Photo227041.jpg
The upside down looking V in a square - that simply looks like the shape of a mast on a ship but the square is confusing.....too much of a stretch for me.
The symbol at the bottom right - could be a set of windows on a number of buildings around NMP
Two half circles at bottom - I have blown this up over and over and all I can see is two heads facing each other. I'd like to say it is the turn table but it looks more like a graphic representation of two heads facing each other. Perhaps referencing the two Speaker Towers....? What also interests me is that below the center of those two heads is a tiny black circle in the gold trim and from what I've seen that is not a printing mistake. I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed it?
While I'm at it...
The Yin Yang symbol is upside down. The white half is always on top. This suggests the image is meant to be flipped top to bottom. If you use the Yin Yang symbol as the pivot point and overlay a copy, something wonderful happens -- a word that you need to find the casque gets spelled out.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Can you clarify what you are saying here? What is being disguised? All four symbols absolutely exist as USGS symbols. Sorry that I did not spell out "dots" with the triangle, if that has thrown you off.
Sure the symbol for tank is circle, but it is a solid circle or one with hatched lines.
the symbol for homestead is a square but it is a tiny square, the more common symbol is a dashed line with a dot around the homestead area.
specifically what I am saying is the triangle with a dot in the center and the square with the dot in the center and the circle with a dot in the center are not USGS symbols.
they could be modified (disguised) symbols, but again I question why he would bother to disguise them when he already hid them along the dress as decorations.
by that logic every square on the sleeves represents a homestead or each line around the border of the dress, is an obvious USGS symbol.
your opinion may vary but I do not see them clearly as USGS symbols, and although it has been brought up in the past, I don't think the general consensus thinks so either.
Mister EZ
I just looked at the PDF...and, I don't see it either.
So, stop being a sarcastic prick and just agree to disagree....
MrBackstop
misinstl, I like your thinking....welcome aboard.
mlsinstl
MrBackstop wrote::
misinstl, I like your thinking....welcome aboard.
Thanks. I'm trying to post an image showing what I described, but I don't have permissions yet to upload attachments. I requested permission from the Administrator. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to post it.
I asked myself a simple question. Once I've identified the Giant pole, what do I need to identify the dig location? You need a direction and distance along with the unit of measurement (steps, feet, yards, etc.). The overlay provides the unit of measurement in a really cool way.
davinci4
Goldengate wrote::
Here are two examples of the dozens of Triratna symbols easily seen inside the GGP Chinese Pavilion. I'm not insisting the casque is there... or that it's even in GGP, but to date, this is the only symbol on the dress found in GGP -- that I'm aware of. (The Chinese Pavilion was dedicated in 1981 -- the year BP buried the casques and was a heavily publicized new attraction to the park)
IMAGE 1:
CHINESE PAVILION:
Nice find. ..its possible that the X and “upside IV” Refer to 10th ave and 4th ave surrounding GGP.
mlsinstl
Goldengate wrote::
To post images, use a BB image uploading site -- I don't think the uploading feature works internally.
Here's the inverted image overlayed using the Yin Yang symbol as the anchor point.
https://bit.ly/2K4bqlr
Here's the same image with the text highlighted. BP used the dragon's feet to provide the unit of measurement: feet.
https://bit.ly/2MHgHxJ
Mister EZ
Durian wrote::
Look again. A fact is a fact. We can disagree over their meanings, but these are USGS symbols. If you choose to deny them, you aren't agreeing to disagree—you are in some type of denial:
Correct.
Facts are facts: You're a sarcastic prick.
So, by all means, post your novel (the one that has had 4 different endings that are *obviously* the correct dig spot) again, as if we didn't read it the first 50 times you posted it during your desperate pursuit of malted's agreement, validation and approval.
erexere
My friend tells me Le'nardo invented the circumcision of sarcastic picks.
So that series of symbols as markers helps us how?
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Look again. A fact is a fact. We can disagree over their meanings, but these are USGS symbols. If you choose to deny them, you aren't agreeing to disagree—you are in some type of denial:
You are absolutely correct, my printed copy does not have them but when I blow up the pdf, they are there.
Goonie68
A different view of the symbols
Possibly Masonic symbols, the G looks very like the G in the Freemason symbol, the square with a dot or circle could be a mason Square circle, the triangle possibly The eye of Providence (triangle with dot) these symbols are connected to a street in SF, with the addition of Yin and Yang, the circle or trefoil pattern.
Mister EZ
Durian wrote::
I don't need Malted or anyone's approval.
Durian wrote::
I'm trying to cooperatively solve the puzzle.
Durian wrote::
Apparently defending something that obvious warrants the title of prick?
Ah....right.
He
finally
agreed with you on something.
So now, you're civil to him...??
The way you respond whenever he (or, others) disagree with you states otherwise. You want people to agree with you.
Period.
It's not the content of what you post....it's the tone of the response when you "defend" against a disagreement. That's what warrants the title.
Mister EZ
Goldengate wrote::
So funny you should mention this! I was thinking this morning about that -- specifically the Scottish Rite Masonic Center on 19th which has detailed mosaics of many masonic symbols displayed across the front facade. Also it's directly across from Stern Grove (one of the coolest parks in San Francisco for those who have not visited)... personally I'd love if the casque was buried there but nothing I can think of points to it -- that said, worth a visit for those passing through -- especially during the summer concert season!
Here are a few of those symbols...like you said, not a match, but interesting, imho:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14696209@N02/24762776421/
Mister EZ
mlsinstl wrote::
Here's the inverted image overlayed using the Yin Yang symbol as the anchor point.
https://bit.ly/2K4bqlr
Here's the same image with the text highlighted. BP used the dragon's feet to provide the unit of measurement: feet.
https://bit.ly/2MHgHxJ
mlsinstl, very interesting!
Photoshop wasn't created until '87.....PC's didn't become 'commonplace' until the mid-'90's.
I'm curious -- how would somebody (an average reader, with one copy of the book) have created that type of transparent overlay, in the early '80's?
And....although he's an incredible artist...do you really think JJP is
that
good to have painted that in the perfect position, by hand, so that it could be discovered decades later in the 21st century?
Goonie68
Something to think about....The Masonic on California street, before was once owned by Alban Towne (a Freemason)
And once stood his mansion, which was destroyed in the 1906 earthquake with the only thing left standing the Colum's of the entry way which is now in GGP
And is know as the Iconic image of the Portals of the past. Gman on this site pointed this out, This would connect the triangle with dot to GGP via the Portals of the Past.
mlsinstl
Mister EZ wrote::
mlsinstl, very interesting!
Photoshop wasn't created until '87.....PC's didn't become 'commonplace' until the mid-'90's.
I'm curious -- how would somebody (an average reader, with one copy of the book) have created that type of transparent overlay, in the early '80's?
And....although he's an incredible artist...do you really think JJP is
that
good to have painted that in the perfect position, by hand, so that it could be discovered decades later in the 21st century?
I've thought about that. Plastic overhead transparencies were available in 1982. I used them on other treasure hunts like the Alchemist Dar before I had Photoshop. Besides, hasn't anyone else wondered why the dragon's feet were such odd shapes?
Additionally, it's absolutely crucial to pinpoint the dig. I have a complete solution that includes direction and distance from pole and you need to know that the distance is in feet.
Mister EZ
mlsinstl wrote::
I've thought about that. Plastic overhead transparencies were available in 1982. I used them on other treasure hunts like the Alchemist Dar before I had Photoshop.
Besides, hasn't anyone else wondered why the dragon's feet were such odd shapes?
Additionally, it's absolutely crucial to pinpoint the dig. I have a complete solution that includes direction and distance from pole and you need to know that the distance is in feet.
I just thought it suffered from bunions.
;-]
But, good answer. I remember overhead transparencies.
Somebody with awesome tracing skills might have been able to create the overlay.
However, I don't think JJP is that skilled to have included it as part of the image clues. (Sorry, JJP....)
Still...I hope you're right.
Good luck on your hunt....cheers!
maltedfalcon
mlsinstl wrote::
Plastic overhead transparencies were available in 1982.
but not color or even B&W copying onto overhead, simple tracing would have been all that was available.
JoshCornell
the dragons claws make a cb (china beach), where you learn part of the immigration story.
Goonie68
More eyes the better on this...Looking at the #'s 37 and 38 in the illustration, the 3 is consistent with the same loop, The vine against the table has the same loop. Would it be possible that the vine next to the table is a 3 and the spiral is a 6?
how do i deactivate
MrBackstop
JoshCornell wrote::
the dragons claws make a cb (china beach), where you learn part of the immigration story.
I see them as Aquatic Pier and Alcatraz.
Spiritr
all set as promised~
Youtube Live starts at 9:30am
maltedfalcon
Best of luck
Fyi the permit “Fine print”
says no filming
Spiritr
Yea I know,
I'll call again Monday and ask them about it, if they insist I'm not allow to film.
I'll do exactly what I do to the cops. Am I being detain? If not, no one has the right to stop me from exercising my First Amendment right to record. And I'll show them my press card. I should be good.
btw, reason why he keep telling me this place doesn't exist and I might not be able to dig there, was because I randomly marked a circle on the map and he thought that is where I wanted to dig!
and also, do anyone know what "Aza" mean?
the bottom half of the email contain a reference number and my information, and " for more information please contact the Aza office" ? Where is that?
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
Yea I know,
I'll call again Monday and ask them about it, if they insist I'm not allow to film.
I'll do exactly what I do to the cops. Am I being detain? If not, no one has the right to stop me from exercising my First Amendment right to record. And I'll show them my press card. I should be good.
btw, reason why he keep telling me this place doesn't exist and I might not be able to dig there, was because I randomly marked a circle on the map and he thought that is where I wanted to dig!
and also, do anyone know what "Aza" mean?
the bottom half of the email contain a reference number and my information, and " for more information please contact the Aza office" ? Where is that?
The moment you start to give them any kind of grief, the groundskeeper will "remember" there is a fragile water line just below the spot you want to dig and your dig will be dis-allowed. - so smile and save the filming for after.
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
and also, do anyone know what "Aza" mean?
the bottom half of the email contain a reference number and my information, and " for more information please contact the Aza office" ? Where is that?
The Association of Zoo's and Aquariums
which is wierd cause thats a national thing,
here is the SF zoo office
San Francisco Zoo & Gardens
1 Zoo Road
San Francisco, CA 94132
(415) 753-7080
BINGO
Spiritr wrote::
And I'll show them my press card. I should be good.
That should be an interesting exchange. What exactly is your press card used for? I’m going out on a limb here and making the assumption that you are not a writer of any kind.
Guardian
Spiritr wrote::
Yea I know,
I'll call again Monday and ask them about it, if they insist I'm not allow to film.
I'll do exactly what I do to the cops. Am I being detain? If not, no one has the right to stop me from exercising my First Amendment right to record. And I'll show them my press card. I should be good.
Take it from someone who deals with this subject frequently: Do NOT mention the First Amendment unless you want to be escorted away by police officers and put on a watch list. The issue is that they don’t want to take any chance of giving people ideas—and too many people have already got those ideas.
JoshCornell
MrBackstop wrote::
I see them as Aquatic Pier and Alcatraz.
i dont.
Spiritr
NO filming , so live has to cancel.
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
NO filming , so live has to cancel.
no worries - It is true, that rule sucks, however it is much better than - NO digging!
Spiritr
looking for parking now
BINGO
Spiritr wrote::
looking for parking now
How did the dig go?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Wonder if he'll join the rest of the hall-of-shame members that seemingly vanish after digging up nothing.
There is no shame in an empty hole. It's the second best way I know to advance the puzzle.
Spiritr
Park ranger showed up really late that day, I did dig a big hole in the area . But found nothing. And realized it's a lot harder than what I thought, It's very hard to dig because it's filled with rocks and glasses. And because the park ranger can't stay at the spot for any longer he gave me a reference number as a free pass for my next dig.
After that I went back to work. I didn't vanish, and hall-of-shame? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I didn't vanish, and hall-of-shame? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Our resident curmudgeon is referring to the propensity of some posters, new to the hunt, to disappear after what we assume to be an unsuccessful dig, despite a fair amount of bravado leading up to the dig. Unfortunately, with your post above, you are no longer eligible for the HoS.
I'm sorry that your dig did not produce a casque. I hope it was a learning experience, and that you will have better luck the next time. And that you will continue to share with us here.
Spiritr
that's where I dig, and I did it with Image 1/Verse 10.
Spiritr
2 maps of image 1:
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
that's where I dig, and I did it with Image 1/Verse 10.
That's great! Keep at it!
Spiritr
maltedfalcon wrote::
That's great! Keep at it!
I tried my best already, so I think its time to let all of you to finish it
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
that's where I dig, and I did it with Image 1/Verse 10.
Yeah, I think I see the problem.
Spiritr
What’s the problem that you saw?
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
What’s the problem that you saw?
verse 10 is pretty much worked out with NY.
Spiritr
Did it? really? by who?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Did it? really? by who?
Pretty much everyone who has been seriously working the puzzle over the last 15 years and understands the connections Preiss was trying to make. But if you think that you have a better idea, I for one would love to hear it. Your solve is short on details, especially how you have used Verse 10 to find your dig spot.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Hello,
I am new to this. I saw the show regarding the Secret and am hooked. I believe that I know where the San Francisco casque is buried. I need someone to check it out. (Poke the location). Anyone interested?
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I am new to this, so I haven't been following the posts. I have a different location that may be the location of the casque. I need someone to poke the ground in that spot for me as I am located in Alaska. Anyone interested in checking it out?
maltedfalcon
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
I am new to this, so I haven't been following the posts. I have a different location that may be the location of the casque. I need someone to poke the ground in that spot for me as I am located in Alaska. Anyone interested in checking it out?
So to be clear, Hundreds of very smart people have worked on this for dozens of years. Lots and Lots of spots have been checked. if you haven't been following the posts how do you know your spot hasn't been checked before ?
Spiritr
MrSeabass wrote::
You need to provide a lot more justification. Nobody is gonna 'poke the ground' without a working theory and a permit.
Wrong, after meeting with the park ranger, regardless if you have a working theory or not.
YOU NEED A PERMIT! WITH A REFERENCE NUMBER!
spending a night over in 850 Bryant is NO JOKE.
And one more tip, 2 authorities you DO NOT mess with, Fish and game, and Park Rangers. They are above local police, way~~~~~above.
BINGO
Spiritr wrote::
And one more tip, 2 authorities you DO NOT mess with, Fish and game, and Park Rangers. They are above local police, way~~~~~above.
Do those departments not recognize press passes?
maltedfalcon
BINGO wrote::
Do those departments not recognize press passes?
Source, worked for the McClatchy Company for 17 years
There are 3 kinds of press passes, law enforcement, Parking and event.... also who issued the pass makes a big difference.
a press pass gets you access. to
an area for purposes of reporting, photography, etc. it is not a get in free card.
it is not a guarantee of anything, it just lets the security/law enforcment/ organization know you are a reporter.
they do not have to allow any access, it's more of an official "Please" LET ME IN
They used to be a much bigger deal. but now days since basically any blogger can get one, not so much.
The important part is who issued it.
even then now with basically instantaneous communication, the press pass sort of has been replaced by organization pre-arranging access
ie the super bowl- press passes are useless you need to pre-arrange superbowl credentials
Spiritr
maltedfalcon
and yes, those departments are so rich and they basically don't give a shit to anybody.
Dominick
Hello, My name is Dominick and I am new to the search. I have been working on my solution for about 2 months. I am using Image 1 with verse 7 in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. I think this verse fits best except for the first 2 line.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Many hunter believe that "stone wall's door" is the bust of William Shakespeare in Shakespeare's Garden. I think this is wrong. First, there are 2 doors not 1 "door". Second, that is a shelf not an opening. Last, that is a brick wall not a stone wall.
JoshCornell
noones gonna disagree with you there dominick.
Spiritr
Dominick wrote::
Hello, My name is Dominick and I am new to the search. I have been working on my solution for about 2 months. I am using Image 1 with verse 7 in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. I think this verse fits best except for the first 2 line.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Many hunter believe that "stone wall's door" is the bust of William Shakespeare in Shakespeare's Garden. I think this is wrong. First, there are 2 doors not 1 "door". Second, that is a shelf not an opening. Last, that is a brick wall not a stone wall.
welcome to the forum Dom,
following what Josh said above, nobody will agree with you either.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I don't know how you include an image with your message, but would love to know.
Anyway, I see the hand holding the pine cone from John McLaren Monument in the center of the Image 1. Area of snake unlike other. Also blue glow around the female figure mimicks the silouette of John McKinnon Statue in GGP. So, verse 5 MAY still apply to Image 1.
Spiritr
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
I don't know how you include an image with your message, but would love to know.
[img]URL[/img]
you can even do gif
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I figured out image attachment. Whew.
https://s26.postimg.cc/rr7ug3x3t/bart.png
Does anyone see the BART logo in Image 1?
The reason I ask:
I see AA - Ansul Adams
CB - China Beach
Pine cone in Left hand
so far and want to verify the BART connection. Thanks again, Adam
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Spiritr wrote::
welcome to the forum Dom,
following what Josh said above, nobody will agree with you either.
Hello Dom,
I'm new to this too. I believe Image 1 goes with verse 5.
Seems there are many SF locations and people hidden in verse 5.
Consider:
Lover's Lane, One of USA first.
Feb 20, 1902 is Ansel Adam's Birthday. Born in San Francisco.
Ansels' 1st Photo featured in a Gallery was taken at China Beach in 1932, subject Golden Gate.
"You'll see" Arc of lights - directly refers to Golden Gate w/ Bridge as "seen" anytime after 1933
I am working on other clues and leads right now. and hope to have a complete solution before too long.
Thanks, Adam
maltedfalcon
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
I figured out image attachment. Whew.
https://s26.postimg.cc/rr7ug3x3t/bart.png
Does anyone see the BART logo in Image 1?
The reason I ask:
I see AA - Ansul Adams
CB - China Beach
Pine cone in Left hand
so far and want to verify the BART connection. Thanks again, Adam
That wasnt the bart logo at any time during the 1980s
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Good Morning Falcon,
I'm glad to see your post.
Was this logo used in the 1980's. If not, can you post a pic of what their logo was back then. Thanks, Adam
Have an excellent day!
Adam
https://s26.postimg.cc/bftyeoqs9/new_bart.png
Goonie68
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Good Morning Falcon,
I'm glad to see your post.
Was this logo used in the 1980's. If not, can you post a pic of what their logo was back then. Thanks, Adam
Have an excellent day!
Adam
https://s26.postimg.cc/bftyeoqs9/new_bart.png
Yes this is the logo back in 1980
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Perfect,
Thanks for your help Goonie68. Are you in SF? Thanks, Adam.
P.S. the reason I ask, I am interested in pictures of the William McKinnon Statue in GGP on John F. Kennedy Drive just east of 8th Street. The internet photo doesn't show the details of whats on the front or what the statue silouette from behind looks like. Have an excellent day! Adam
Goonie68
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Perfect,
Thanks for your help Goonie68. Are you in SF? Thanks, Adam.
P.S. the reason I ask, I am interested in pictures of the William McKinnon Statue in GGP on John F. Kennedy Drive just east of 8th Street. The internet photo doesn't show the details of whats on the front or what the statue silouette from behind looks like. Have an excellent day! Adam
[url][url=https://ibb.co/bZ4Jgo]
[/url] [/url]
I don't have a view from the back this is the best I have.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Great observation and photo. It is so good to see him closer up. Thanks again for the photo Goonie68! Have an awesome day! Adam
Goonie68
So why did the Gh get ruled out of GGP? No visual evidence? I can't remember if someone had a connection to the park? Anyone?
maltedfalcon
in a 1980 tourist map of golden gate park when superimposed on the dress ,the G h line up with Great Highway-
the G in Great was upper case and the h in highway was lower case.
unfortunately I haven't been able to find that map since the early 90s, (not that I am really trying, I've already seen it)
but most want to assume I am wrong, the map either doesn't exist or it is not a match like I said.
and that it actually means Ghirrardelli
because the fonts seem to match
but if you actually compare the fonts the letters are actually quite dis-similar
erexere
That's really good input Malty. People should take it into consideration and not make any hasty conclusions without facts. I've seen some of your comparative analysis with the other images and I would tend to side with your assessments.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
in a 1980 tourist map of golden gate park when superimposed on the dress ,the G h line up with Great Highway-
the G in Great was upper case and the h in highway was lower case.
unfortunately I haven't been able to find that map since the early 90s, (not that I am really trying, I've already seen it)
but most want to assume I am wrong, the map either doesn't exist or it is not a match like I said.
and that it actually means Ghirrardelli
because the fonts seem to match
but if you actually compare the fonts the letters are actually quite dis-similar
Maltedfalcon, do you remember what the map looked liked? Was it a cartoonish map? I recently got a hold of a map of GGP, which was the distributed map of GGP at the time (tourist map) I spoke with the company that made the map and they where contracted to do the parks map (tourist) from 80-84. With the description you have mentioned it appears you saw a different map of the park? The map I have does show a Gh but not as the Great Hwy.
maltedfalcon
it was 90% accurate and 10% cartoonish, and when superimposed on the dress (mirrored) the streets around the lower part of the dress matched perfectly,
the Great Highway was curved like the neckline of the dress, which is not accurate in real life at all.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
it was 90% accurate and 10% cartoonish, and when superimposed on the dress (mirrored) the streets around the lower part of the dress matched perfectly,
the Great Highway was curved like the neckline of the dress, which is not accurate in real life at all.
Thanks for your input!
JoshCornell
thats cause its a different clue...
fox
JoshCornell wrote::
thats cause its a different clue...
Do tell
Spiritr
maltedfalcon wrote::
in a 1980 tourist map of golden gate park when superimposed on the dress ,the G h line up with Great Highway-
the G in Great was upper case and the h in highway was lower case.
unfortunately I haven't been able to find that map since the early 90s, (not that I am really trying, I've already seen it)
but most want to assume I am wrong, the map either doesn't exist or it is not a match like I said.
and that it actually means Ghirrardelli
because the fonts seem to match
but if you actually compare the fonts the letters are actually quite dis-similar
I heard about this on the podcast, but what kind of tourist map was it? was it from ggp? was it a book or just a piece of paper? where did you saw it?
if you could give me a bit more details, I have ways to find it.
was it a multicolour map? You sure it's a English(America) map? What else could you remember besides "Great hwy" ?
Just give me a bit more info on how to identify this map, I really want to see this map!
maltedfalcon
It was a fold out map you could get in the park,
it was a free map
it was long and skinny, had 3 folds.
JoshCornell
just look for the neckline, its incredibly obvious...
or you could just ask malted cause he knows the answer.
alphsigm
Throwing my ideas out there so people can say how silly they are-
"At stone wall’s door" - I think it's been suggested before, but there's a stone wall with a gate in front of the Conservatory of Flowers that looks like the gate in the mountain in the image
https://goo.gl/maps/dGevJoR9grq
. Also, the path in front of gate kind of looks like her collar. If you are facing the gate with the Conservatory of Flowers behind you, the flower clock is behind you to the left, just like the flower + clock on the table is in the lower left hand side of the painting.
"The air smells sweet" - Flowers at the Conservatory of Flowers.
"Not far away/ High posts are three" - Could be the Sutro Tower, but the three posts on top of the Conservatory of Flowers is closer.
"Education and Justice/ For all to see" - Near the Conservatory of Flowers there's a James Garfield Monument
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/g ... -2012.html
. James Garfield was an educator before he was a president, and the figure at the bottom of the monument is Columbia, which is a personification of the United States (and Justice). Also the monument is on a small hill and is adjacent to JFK drive, one of the main thoroughfares of the park so it's there for all to see. You can see the gate, the conservatory, and the monument from the same spot.
"Sounds from the sky/ Near ace is high" - Don't have an explanation for this, but sounds from the sky could be bullets (explain this later) or the hippies playing music in the panhandle.
"Running north, but first across" - Could be JFK Drive, it's the only street to run all the way east-west across the park, and it turns north abruptly before exiting the park and connecting with the Great Highway.
"In jewel’s direction/ Is an object/ Of Twain’s attention" - It's been suggested before, but I think this might be the William McKinley monument
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/g ... 20111.html
. He was the attention of one of Twain's books. Also, if you look at the monument, the figure on top isn't even McKinley, it's Columbia, which is the same figure from the Garfield Monument. Additionally, McKinley, Garfield, and JFK are three of the four presidents who have been assassinated (sounds from the sky/bullets). The remaining president who was assassinated, Lincoln, incidentally also has a connection to GGP. Lincoln Way is the southern boundary street for the park.
If you follow JFK Drive towards the McKinley Monument, it takes you to the panhandle. That's where "Giant pole/ Giant step/ To the place/ The casque is kept" would come in, but I don't have any theories as to what those could refer to. Perhaps the giant pole is the panhandle itself?
JamesV
alphsigm wrote::
If you follow JFK Drive towards the McKinley Monument, it takes you to the panhandle. That's where "Giant pole/ Giant step/ To the place/ The casque is kept" would come in, but I don't have any theories as to what those could refer to. Perhaps the giant pole is the panhandle itself?
Interesting ideas for sure. I'm still leaning towards an I1/V6 pairing, but just a couple thoughts on yours:
-If you accept the idea that the Image 1 woman's dress is a map of Golden Gate Park, it looks like the pearl itself would be located in the Panhandle section of the park. Wondering if this could somehow actually indicate the dig site?
-Judging by a few online image searches, the McKinley monument in GGP's Panhandle looks like it has a face engraved in profile. Unsure if this could somehow be an "Image match" for the man's profile ticked into the rocks of Image 1.
maltedfalcon
JamesV wrote::
-If you accept the idea that the Image 1 woman's dress is a map of Golden Gate Park, it looks like the pearl itself would be located in the Panhandle section of the park. Wondering if this could somehow actually indicate the dig site?
seriously? if the top part of the dress panel is not included as part of the map of ggpark, then the dress is basically not a match for golden gate park
if it is included, then therefore the location of the pearl in the image would be outside of golden gate park across the Great Highway
which would locate it on the beach.
how do you even get the panhandle out of that? its on the other end of golden gate park.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Welcome to the search. I like your new ideas and take on the verse. Good luck in the park and finding additional clues. Get ready for lots of backlash from lots of folks who"know your wrong'"but don't have the casque to prove it. Stay diligent, you'll find it. Adam
jayheedan1
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Welcome to the search. I like your new ideas and take on the verse. Good luck in the park and finding additional clues. Get ready for lots of backlash from lots of folks who"know your wrong'"but don't have the casque to prove it. Stay diligent, you'll find it. Adam
Such true words.
JamesV
maltedfalcon wrote::
how do you even get the panhandle out of that? its on the other end of golden gate park.
MF, with the way I was viewing Image 1 as a possible Golden Gate Park / San Francisco map overlay, I'd positioned the neckline in the woman's dress (between the G and h) on the east end of the park, right around Stanyan Street.
Were you looking at this one from another angle?
alphsigm
JamesV wrote::
Interesting ideas for sure. I'm still leaning towards an I1/V6 pairing, but just a couple thoughts on yours:
-If you accept the idea that the Image 1 woman's dress is a map of Golden Gate Park, it looks like the pearl itself would be located in the Panhandle section of the park. Wondering if this could somehow actually indicate the dig site?
-Judging by a few online image searches, the McKinley monument in GGP's Panhandle looks like it has a face engraved in profile. Unsure if this could somehow be an "Image match" for the man's profile ticked into the rocks of Image 1.
I think the general consensus is that the bottom right hand corner of the dress is the Fulton/Stanyan corner because it juts out like that corner of GGP does.
The face engraved in profile is McKinley. It's been suggested that the man's profile in the rocks of image 1 looks like Lincoln or JFK, which would further reinforce the Lincoln Way or JFK Drive connections.
maltedfalcon
mind you this is not the correct version of the map this is one I grabbed just to show as an example
JamesV
Got it, thanks very much for the clarification guys. I'll have a closer, more critical look through my old maps.
jayheedan1
I have to say I always thought the dress panel looked more like hairpin turns of the iconic Lombard street than GGP. I believe Josh also commented on that recently.
alphsigm
Does anyone else feel that, besides the dragon vaguely looking like Lombard St or GGP or the dragon in front of the GGP senior center, Image 1 has less strong location matches than the other images? There's no strong landmark or maps matches.
jayheedan1
I think that’s exactly the way most of us feel, Preiss stated the more expensive the jewel the harder the puzzle. Not to say pearls are expensive but this maybe what he was alluding to.
JoshCornell
JamesV wrote::
Interesting ideas for sure. I'm still leaning towards an I1/V6 pairing, but just a couple thoughts on yours:
-If you accept the idea that the Image 1 woman's dress is a map of Golden Gate Park, it looks like the pearl itself would be located in the Panhandle section of the park. Wondering if this could somehow actually indicate the dig site?
-Judging by a few online image searches, the McKinley monument in GGP's Panhandle looks like it has a face engraved in profile. Unsure if this could somehow be an "Image match" for the man's profile ticked into the rocks of Image 1.
your both wrong (but esp james lol...thats not where pearl would be...)
which man, there are several?
JoshCornell
jayheedan1 wrote::
I have to say I always thought the dress panel looked more like hairpin turns of the iconic Lombard street than GGP. I believe Josh also commented on that recently.
mid dragon section is crooked st
JoshCornell
as seen from coit, to be exact.
JoshCornell
alphsigm wrote::
Does anyone else feel that, besides the dragon vaguely looking like Lombard St or GGP or the dragon in front of the GGP senior center, Image 1 has less strong location matches than the other images? There's no strong landmark or maps matches.
all the landmarks are important...there are more than 2...
jayheedan1
Definitely the view from Coit Tower is alluring. If paired with verse 10, where Coit Tower is a grey giant, it only has one path that leads to/from which is Lombard street (slender path) the shadow of Coit Tower have cars abound the roundabout of the Christopher Columbus statue. Is he a Indies native? It is more in line with viewing Alcatraz and a potential isle of B (belevede) to the North. The outline in the San Fran image above the table/flower kinda looks like Belvedere island minus the wings on either side. Or at least as well as the Illinois and Ohio outlines looked.
Just a thought if anyone was considering other verse combos
JoshCornell
thats the verse for ny the indies native is hamilton.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I like your thoughts Jayheedan1. Verse 10 has possibilities. The shadow probably shines on more than Columbus Statue. Keep your mind open. And have an excellent day! Adam
JoshCornell
*smacks head*
Mister EZ
Jay, Christopher Columbus is credited with discovering the West Indies. But...he's not a native of the Indies, wasn't from there. He was European ....usually, cited as being Italian.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I actually prefer Raisin Bran, But Sugar smacks are OK. Have a great day Josh.
JoshCornell
Mister EZ wrote::
Jay, Christopher Columbus is credited with discovering the West Indies. But...he's not a native of the Indies, wasn't from there. He was European ....usually, cited as being Italian.
so its not him...thats what youre being told lol...listen.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
You rock GoldenGate. I am convinced that either past theories are mismatched with images, or verse interpretations are not spot on. Every idea is equally brilliant and stupid until the casque shows us who was right. Have an excellent day! Adam
jayheedan1
Idk I am bothered by the Indies line, too vague seems every country had an “Indies” since Columbus “discovered” the West Indies and named them would Preiss declare him a native? But also the rise of the “indie” (independent) films and music became popular in the 1930’s. Is this a reference to something in that genre?
If you (Josh) had it figured out I guess I need to go back and read your New York solve walkthrough.
JoshCornell
that would probably benefit you. as it gives you exact location of treasure lol
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I looked for bus routes in San Francisco and guess where route 58 goes? From Downtown to Hamilton (image of map attached). It goes by the Coit Tower, so it is reasonable to expect to see a sign for this bus (TO HAMILTON) there. Have an excellent day! Adam
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/333bm2v/9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_58
Mister EZ
JoshCornell wrote::
so its not him...
Which is what I was saying....so, *you* listen.
JoshCornell
i just found the tile theme...the tile style and tile maker.
maltedfalcon
Goldengate wrote::
So far, 100% of your theories have proven to be dead wrong... you've found nothing, just like everyone else here.
Pretty sure there are at least 2 people possibly 3 people here who have found casques.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Josh is KOEH! King of Empty Holes.
Spiritr
jayheedan1 wrote::
Definitely the view from Coit Tower is alluring. If paired with verse 10, where Coit Tower is a grey giant, it only has one path that leads to/from which is Lombard street (slender path) the shadow of Coit Tower have cars abound the roundabout of the Christopher Columbus statue. Is he a Indies native? It is more in line with viewing Alcatraz and a potential isle of B (belevede) to the North. The outline in the San Fran image above the table/flower kinda looks like Belvedere island minus the wings on either side. Or at least as well as the Illinois and Ohio outlines looked.
Just a thought if anyone was considering other verse combos
it has more than one path, yet Lombard is just too far away. He's Italian. No, it doesn't kinda looks like whatever island, instead, it's a map of the park.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Darn I wish that I was in SF to explore the area around Coit Tower. The slender path could be Filbert St. It is a definite path from Coit Tower to the bus stop on Sansome. Wouldn't that be hilarious if BP took a bus and described things he saw along the route? Ghirardelli Chocolate factory is near Route 58 Bus stop too! Anyhow, have an excellent day! Adam
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Didn't I read that someone was wondering what the connection was to a 58 they see in image 1?
Spiritr
this "path" could be just a path, without names, and there's a few up there.
I don't think this 58 bus route existed back in 1980, only bus line that could get you up there is local muni 39.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Kerry at GGT is looking into it. She indicated that service started in the area in 1972, and she is double-checking to see if Route 58 was active since then or was added later. (415) 921-5858 for contact GGT info.
Spiritr
it's not important, because it's only stops at 4th and perry, 4th and folsom and Battery Pine, it does not take you anywhere near the Tele hill.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Actually route 58 DOES service Sansome St. and Filbert St. (see attached). So he COULD have seen "the sign nearby that speaks of Indies native" right there at the bus stop. Have an excellent day! Adam
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/smrkvl/9
Spiritr
Indies native...is 58? a bus stop? a sign of what? Filbert? just post a picture of the sign so I could understand what you trying to refer
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Brilliant! That's a great idea! We need someone in SF to go to that Bus Stop at Sansome and Filbert Streets to take pictures of the Bus Stop sign. Although it won't show what the sign would have looked like in 1982, you'd see a reference to Route 58 north servicing Hamilton and Novato. Great idea. Since I'm almost 3000 miles away (2957 to be exact) I can't do it today. Maybe someone else? Thanks, Adam
maltedfalcon
LOL where it stops today would have very little to do with where it stopped in 1982. Mass Transit in SF has been re-invented at least twice since 1982 and if it is anything like my town, the bus stations, that were in use in 1982 have totally been replaced by other buildings and transit centers. so all of the city routes would be different. The only way this could be useful is find a period map with stops on it and then find a period photo of the street with the sign in question. shoot, even the cable cars stops and routes are different and those are literally set in concrete. imagine bus stops....
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Pretty sure there are at least 2 people possibly 3 people here who have found casques.
None of those people have participated on this forum using their commonly accepted handle in months, and in the case of the Chicago group, years. Are they really "here"?
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
None of those people have participated on this forum using their commonly accepted handle in months, and in the case of the Chicago group, years. Are they really "here"?
yes
lurking
alphsigm
jayheedan1 wrote::
I think that’s exactly the way most of us feel, Preiss stated the more expensive the jewel the harder the puzzle. Not to say pearls are expensive but this maybe what he was alluding to.
I remember reading that too, but wouldn't you think a pearl would be less expensive than say an emerald or a diamond? The emerald has been found and the diamond (image 2) has a very clear representation of a map of the Charleston area, something we are lacking here besides a vague rectangle that most people think corresponds to GGP.
JoshCornell
uhhh chnatown and vertigo arent solid refs? id say they are pretty damned solidly grounded in sf if you ask me...and that's ignoring everything else...like the chinese immigration theme, practically every single visual clue...should i continue? lol
alphsigm
JoshCornell wrote::
uhhh chnatown and vertigo arent solid refs? id say they are pretty damned solidly grounded in sf if you ask me...and that's ignoring everything else...like the chinese immigration theme, practically every single visual clue...should i continue? lol
There's plenty of references, themes, and allusions, but in my opinion we don't have any 1:1 direct matches besides GGP I guess. Image 2 you can clearly see the map of Charleston, Image 3 you can clearly see Roanoke Island, Image 4 you can clearly see Ohio, Terminal Tower, the fountain, the pillars, Image 5 you can clearly see Illinois, the water tower, and the fence, etc.
Spiritr
there's definitely a 1:1 direct matched map, unless you're blind
JoshCornell
great highway and ghiradelli arent obvious? the background clues arent obvious? if you cant use the film clues to ground you in the city, you dont know what youre doing.
JoshCornell
top left palace of fine arts....
Spiritr
JoshCornell wrote::
great highway and ghiradelli arent obvious? the background clues arent obvious? if you cant use the film clues to ground you in the city, you dont know what youre doing.
G and h were obvious....
but the highway...and the chocolate brand....really not seeing it.
The background view of the bay is obvious tho, I'd vouch for this one.
Spiritr
I might as well throw this one out to all of you Great hwy fans
what does a purple circle, 2 squares, and a triangle has anything to do with Great hwy? or Ghirardelli? Or whatever you think you know what this G and h were?
if you have answers to it, please provide visual evidences.
or quote out the exact line of the verse to back it up.
JoshCornell
the verse doesnt pertain to the great highway, nor ghiradelli...but ghiradelli is most important location in all of the secret.
JoshCornell
btw the collar designs do kinda relate to the gh, but they arent "on" it.
pretty sure im the only one who has broken the collar symbols.
JoshCornell
pretty sure im only one who has got the side dress symbols too. lol
Spiritr
JoshCornell wrote::
the verse doesnt pertain to the great highway, nor ghiradelli...but ghiradelli is most important location in all of the secret.
you see I really respect your ideas, but if you could write a little bit more, provide a pic or link, something, anything, to back up your ideas, it would be much more appreciated.
"Ghiradelli is most important location in all of the secret"
why? saids who? of how?
JoshCornell
not willing to disclose this info at current time.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I applaud all of the great research and clue analysis done over the years and see that there are many valid visual references with Image 1 and SF. The symbols and letters specifically intrigue me because all of the connections you've made indicate that there are items visible in the Image from Coit Tower. Gh backwards with an almost matching font is pretty compelling, as are the water tower and other Alcatraz features depicted as symbols. The fact that TODAY the bus stop sign doesn't match the signage or bus route markings of 1982 isn't at issue, what I believe is that it is a strong PROBABILITY that there was a sign near Sansome and Filbert Streets telling folks of a Hamilton route bus. Since the bus was on that street going to Hamilton, that places the searcher in that area looking for the next clue, or on the bus riding to the next clue. Have an excellent day! Adam
JoshCornell
the signs are the fort hamilton sign as you come over the verazanno bridge and the sign on fort ham high.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
How do those signs "speak" of Indies Native. Next question: Why is Nearby Capitalized? and not included in the previous sentence. Also, Hard is Capitalized, and Vols. Did someone have happy fingers with the caps lock, or are these things important? Thanks again for all of the assistance that you accidentally give me Josh, I sincerely appreciate it. Have an excellent day! Adam
JoshCornell
why would they have to?
JoshCornell
that clue takes you to harding and outside nyc.
JoshCornell
(the outside nyc location tells you the answer)
JoshCornell
harding takes you to the statues of the south americans in central park, but mainly to the bolivar statue in cp. i believe there are 3 or 4 in all.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Oh, I see. Like the TPC Harding Park in San Francisco. What a coincidence.
JoshCornell
you could argue thats a hint, as you are taken to lake merced and stern grove.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
No need to argue. Thanks for confirming a suspicion I had.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Serious question for those that would probably know: Is it physically possible for the casque to be buried in St. Mary's Park in Chinatown? Have there been renovations over the years that would have the soil not deep enough , for example. The clues in verse 10 point there, but is the ground friendy in the "casque being there" kinda way? I hope that it can and is there. As soon as I discovered that one of Sun Yat Sen's major legacies was the creation of his political philosophy of the Three Principles of the People. These Principles included the principle of nationalism, of democracy, and of welfare (3 Vols.) the light bulb lit for me. I hope that this casque is there. And have an excellent day! of course.
Adam
maltedfalcon
Hi Adam, as far as I know back to 1987 it basically looked the same
now they have added statues and done sidewalk work and removed/planted trees, -normal things that happen in a park over 30 some years.
but the majority of the park seems to remain the same.
I've never seen any plausible theory that would take you there.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Thanks for the info. I will smooth off the rough edges of the theory to make it fit 100%, then will share ASAP. Again, I do appreciate all of your tips, tricks and knowledge since I began thinking of the secret. Have an excellent day!
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I detailed the map of travel to the casque (my theory).
It's:
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/23wlcsh/9
I believe that verse 10 search begins at Coit Tower. There are many visual clues to things on Alcatraz island, Ghirardelli Factory evening lights and the tower itself in Image 1.
Coit Tower should cast it's shadow (in the evening) like an arm extending over Filbert Steps. If a person walks from the tower down Filbert St. to Sansome St. they would hear the whirring sound of the birds you mentioned. The cars abound in the parking lots near this area. The traveler would seek out the bus to get to the casque and would see that there is a bus (Route 58) that would take them to Hamilton if they wanted. They don't want to go to Hamilton, but they see that this bus connects with the Cable Car System at North Point and Hyde St., so they ride bus 58 to North Point, get off. At this hour of the evening the Ghirardelli sign is lit and the (11 moons of ) the letters illuminate the night sky, how cool. The traveler gets on the Trolley and rides it to Sacramento and Powell St and gets off. They''ve not been on the transit system for very much time, so they decide to ride the California St. Trolley for the last couple blocks to St. Mary's Square. They had heard that the natives (Chinese) speak very highly of Sun Yat Sen and want to make sure to visit his statue. Once you're in St. Mar's Square admiring the statue of Sun Yat Sen. The remaining lines of the verse will help you pinpoint the exact casque location.
JoshCornell
dragon on dress is not dissimilar to the dragon on the chinese theatre in hollywood. also, i think the el capitain theatre is also significant for this puzzle.
JoshCornell
obvious connection to hollywood is through all the movie references in this puzzle.
JoshCornell
in fact, i think the chinese dragon on the theatre is the BEST overall fit, however, it is clearly a combination of a bunch of diff dragons. its even in a large rectangle.
JoshCornell
shit. just found the most important clue in the whole book tonight!!!
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I know! and if a person goes to St. Marys Square and looks around there are matching visuals to Image 1. I can't wait to see them. Have an excellent day! Adam
maltedfalcon
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Coit Tower should cast it's shadow (in the evening) like an arm extending over Filbert Steps.
Nope I checked the sunset shadow of the tower never makes if far enough south to touch the filbert steps at all
If you want to check my work...
hxxp://suncalc.net/#/37.803,-122.4057,1 ... 0.10/10:55
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Uggh. Darn facts screw up a good guess every time. Thanks so much. Have an excellent day!
JoshCornell
theres no room for guessing mate
im realizing now how much shit actually relates to los angeles and hollywood in this puzzle. didnt realize it till i got here, but surprised noone at least picked up on the chinese and el capitain theatres.
maltedfalcon
JoshCornell wrote::
theres no room for guessing mate
im realizing now how much shit actually relates to los angeles and hollywood in this puzzle. didnt realize it till i got here, but surprised noone at least picked up on the chinese and el capitain theatres.
Because that's basically guessing badly.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I recall seeing a statue or monument of some sort whilst strolling up and down the steps of SF on Google Maps the other day. The "arm extended" must be from that. Either Greenwich steps or Filbert Steps. In the "shadow" must mean the second definition of shadow, in the background, or taking second place. I was convinced it was the sun-related shadow. Also, a branch of the v, is some V word, not the shape of the letter v. Have an excellent day! Adam
fox
JoshCornell wrote::
shit. just found the most important clue in the whole book tonight!!!
For a person who has claimed time and time and time and time again that he has definitely solved 100% of all the puzzles.....you seemed to have an awful lot of these moments as well as your tired old broken record *does a little dance* whilst patting yourself on the back.
JoshCornell
theres a lot of clues man...a lot...
thing is...i already knew the answer...it just reinforced what i already knew...
maltedfalcon
JoshCornell wrote::
theres a lot of clues man...a lot...
thing is...i already knew the answer...it just reinforced what i already knew...
so in the next few days, when you are here, you will be digging up the SF casque?
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Go Carnac the Magnificent! Please post pictures of the casque when you dig it up. I want to see pictures please.
Also, while you're in SF maybe you could visit (don't dig) St. Mary's Square and take some pictures of what things look like there. If it becomes obvious that the casque is in St. Mary's Square please please please ask permission to dig first, then make a respectful attempt at recovery. And have an excellent day, of course. Adam
maltedfalcon
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Go Carnac the Magnificent! Please post pictures of the casque when you dig it up. I want to see pictures please.
Also, while you're in SF maybe you could visit (don't dig) St. Mary's Square and take some pictures of what things look like there. If it becomes obvious that the casque is in St. Mary's Square please please please ask permission to dig first, then make a respectful attempt at recovery. And have an excellent day, of course. Adam
People were looking there as far back as 2011 and never found anything promising besides the generalities you spotted too.
JoshCornell
AlaskaCasqueFinder wrote::
Go Carnac the Magnificent! Please post pictures of the casque when you dig it up. I want to see pictures please.
Also, while you're in SF maybe you could visit (don't dig) St. Mary's Square and take some pictures of what things look like there. If it becomes obvious that the casque is in St. Mary's Square please please please ask permission to dig first, then make a respectful attempt at recovery. And have an excellent day, of course. Adam
its obvious its not, but ill see what i can do lol.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Thanks Josh. And enjoy SF. Adam
JoshCornell
i got permission last time, the guy from the park was the one who actually dug the hole...
JoshCornell
you cant even apply from canada...
JoshCornell
what shit are you on about? noone told me to stop digging? lol i didnt have to get a permit, cause the guy helped me out..i just asked him when i was walking through the park...we met the next day and he dug the spot till we hit the irrigation line...
JoshCornell
it wont accept my phone number or address...
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I just hope that Josh has time to take some pictures of St. Mary's Square for us BEFORE his troubles with the law begin. Got my fingers crossed. And thanks again Josh. Have an excellent day! Adam
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
BEFORE his troubles with the law begin
Josh has been to Houston, New Orleans, St. Augustine, Charleston, Roanoke, New York, Montreal, and San Francisco and to the best of our knowledge, has had no trouble with the law. Why would you expect that his upcoming trip to San Francisco would be any different?
No need to answer Adam, it's a rhetorical question.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
So he's been to 8 cities and had no trouble and no casques. If he's a cool cat like he presents himself he's likely on his last cool cat life. He should count on his luck being gone now. Unfortunate, given the nature of the trip. But maybe we'll get some cool pictures of something. Have an excellent day!
JoshCornell
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Josh has been to Houston, New Orleans, St. Augustine, Charleston, Roanoke, New York, Montreal, and San Francisco and to the best of our knowledge, has had no trouble with the law. Why would you expect that his upcoming trip to San Francisco would be any different?
No need to answer Adam, it's a rhetorical question.
not entirely true...seabass sent my name and photo to charleston pd who stopped me immediately upon entering wpg. also i got cops called on me three times in st aug (and got pulled over for walking round with a shovel)...lol...also i got a speeding ticket in nc, and i have to pay 65 bucks to legally drive there again...haha..
JoshCornell
oh yea, i got rolled TWICE in fucking montreal for weed (once for smoking, once for rolling completely legally lol)...fucking facists...they gave me a littering fine im not gonna pay...
AlaskaCasqueFinder
I see now what the blue aura surrounding the female character in Image 1 is. The Golden Gate (before the bridge). Check this out:
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/dcg5ub/9
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/11skxat/9
Harley Quinn
Goldengate wrote::
...Or he's been "rolled" seven times in the past six months... I know how you like to have your facts straight, so I added them up for you
And there was a good reason Josh Cornell was stopped so frequently in St. Augustine... what was it? What was it... oh, yeah:
Because digging up the roots of one of the city's beloved Love trees is totally kosher. (and I'm happy to provide the link where he brags about trying to bust through those roots)
Also, unless I'm mistaken Josh also tried and failed to dig up the Boston and Milwaukee casques. That would make TEN locations in total, where he left town with no casques... only a load of excuses and fields of empty holes.
So all in all Josh "Anus905" Cornell is paying a pretty damn disrespectful tribute to Byron Preiss' legacy -- and in turn is giving this hunt (and us fellow hunters) a bad name.
I'm honestly hoping Josh drops the lame excuses, applies for a dig permit AND has a good dig in San Francisco! Because if things go sideways and he gets busted digging recklessly (as it's obvious he does), that will not bode well for any of us who wish to do future digs in the city.
What is wrong with some people, you dont go around digging holes without permission. He was lucky that the cops were called. I live in St Augustine. The locals here are proud of their city. Just like everyone is proud of their city also. I'm just shocked that some people can't do things the right way.
JoshCornell
you cant get permission in st aug, so might as well give up. (based on your logic)
Harley Quinn
JoshCornell wrote::
you cant get permission in st aug, so might as well give up. (based on your logic)
What do you mean cant get permission to dig in St Augustine. I did not have any problems with permission. I currently have a carefully planned dig coming soon.
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Just a quick question: Are you guys messaging in codes about all of this permission stuff? or, are you discussing Image 1? Just trying to keep up. Have a great day! Adam
Rviewer1
Hey guys,
Does anyone have some pictures of the San Francisco night skyline in 1981?
Thanks.
Spiritr
San Francisco night skyline?
in 1981 the bay bridge looks much better without those "light-rain"
Should be extremely foggy at night, everything should look very blurry, now thanks to global warming the weather is getting much better, even at night
at district like the lower Sunset, Lake Merced, and Skyline Blvd.....there's no such thing as night sky.
what exactly are you trying to see or view? standing in
Pier
39 would be totally different compare to standing on top of Chinatown's tunnel.
Spiritr
San Francisco night skyline?
in 1981 the bay bridge looks much better without those "light-rain"
Should be extremely foggy at night, everything should look very blurry, now thanks to global warming the weather is getting much better, even at night
at district like the lower Sunset, Lake Merced, and Skyline Blvd.....there's no such thing as night sky.
what exactly are you trying to see or view? standing in Pier 39 would be totally different compare to standing on top of Chinatown's tunnel.
Rviewer1
I wanted to see if the Transamerica Pyramid lighting on top was a blue green color back in 1981. The same with Coit Tower.
Thanks Spiritr.
Spiritr
nothing like you think of I supposed the coit tower only lite up on special holidays, but if they do, white! and the transamerica....that I'm not sure, blue or red flashing is what I see everyday
Rviewer1
If you look at the image in the area of what is supposed to be the face in the rocks that some people says looks like Reagan you will see what looks like a white building with a greenish light on top right about where the nose is. Has anyone speculated on what that maybe?
Spiritr
the background of image 1 are is not San Francisco, it's for something else, all you need to focus on is the woman and the table, it will be wise to try other places before look into this one, because you have no idea what it's about, you simply can't start this game by playing the hardest level, it's not possible. You might think you know something, trust me, you don't. ( I learn that from the podcast )
Rviewer1
Could you put the link to the podcast in for me. I did not realize that the image over on that side was not meant for San Francisco. I can see the palace of fine arts there in addition to JFK and MLK which are streets in GGP.
Thanks for your input.
Spiritr
ok, I'll give you some advice on how to look at the image, mark my word, I have my reasons, first thing you look at image, figure out what the "theme" is first, you can't move on without know what the image is about, use all that's in the image as your confirmer, pair them up, list it out, everything must be connected to each together like a bond. Ask questions, remember this is a wheelchair treasure hunt, you don't go out unless you know where and what to look for. spend some time at home, lunch time, after dinner, before sleep, always put yourself in the 80's. read the book, the book has 2 parts, one is about the Treasure, and the other part work like a glossary, it contain no clues but if you know how a glossary works, that's what it's for. Stay away from "Wiki" because once you pick up the wrong information, that's it my friend, limbo. Only rely on things from BP and his affiliates said as facts and extra source of info, everything else are just personal opinions . You can take my advice as personal opinions as well, I'm sure you know what's right and what not.
Rviewer1
Thanks for that info Spiritr. What you say really makes sense. I like the theme aspects of the puzzle.
Spiritr
Thank you, you are my first supporter you know that? might be the last one before I move on with my life, thank you!
JoshCornell
Rviewer1 wrote::
I wanted to see if the Transamerica Pyramid lighting on top was a blue green color back in 1981. The same with Coit Tower.
Thanks Spiritr.
are you using the boston verse?
JoshCornell
you were so close too...lol...
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
or is this treasure hunt really just an excuse to come to San Francisco for the legal weed
Weed is legal in Maine too, and that's a lot closer to where Josh lives. He can check out the towns of Brooklin and Charleston for clues while he's there.
JoshCornell
can order to my house directly from online for 160 lol
JoshCornell
legal weed in california SUCKS...highly overpriced...terrible quality. high end shit, i get better here for 100 bucks an ounce...
jayheedan1
Are you thinking the wharf sign wasn’t a valid option?
I could only image the number of wooden posts to rise and fall over several decades. May never know
jayheedan1
At the end of the translation this note is given:
Mr. Preiss received special advice from Japanese readers. That is, "Starting from the picture first, for that purpose it is to understand the combination of figures written in the poem".
If the barred window in image 1 is Alcatraz would it also be represented in the verse? Could it be the stone wall and the wharf at its “door?”
Air smells sweet - largely thought to be (G H) Ghirardelli square
Not far away. - all in the same area of telegraph hill
High posts are three -this is a wooden post- (wharf sign)
Education and justice
For all to see. - from the translation it suggests where would you expect or like to see them- another Alcatraz reference?
Sounds from the sky
Near Ace is high. -translation says sounds from airplane-
Running North but first across.
In jewels direction
An object of Twain’s attention - too many choices on this one but the paddle wheel steamer mostly been docked around that area wasn’t it?
jayheedan1
Wonder if running North but first across is leave wharf head across to hwy 101 then North over the GG bridge.
One of the other notes from the Japanese translation was in the verses a thing can be referenced multiple times in the verse but may be lines apart. It would be hard to know which references were about each other. One example the translator commented on was the if ‘the water veers’ is a water feature or some sort, ‘there’s the spout’ may be a reference to the same water feature.
Spiritr
I just submitted the application
my second attempt is on it's way
AlaskaCasqueFinder
Good luck Spiritr. Hope you find it!
Adam
Rviewer1
Yes, good luck Spiritr. What city are you from. I live in Walnut Creek.
I have a solve that includes Joan of Arc at legion of Honor. I know through reading through the threads that the el cid was either dug or was looked at. Was the Joan of arc monument dug up?
Also I have a solve that includes the one of the windmills. I know that there was extensive digging and landscaping there. Is there any part at either windmill that has been untouched since 1981.
Has anyone considered what the baseball batter in in image 1 in the far left upper hand corner of the image to the left of the palace of fine arts. It’s either a golfer at the very top of his back swing or it’s a batter with the bat cocked waiting for a pitch.
MrBackstop
Reviewer, could you show what you are talking about with the batter/golfer image. I can't find it and I've never seen this brought up. I would love to check it out.
Spiritr
Rviewer1 wrote::
Yes, good luck Spiritr. What city are you from. I live in Walnut Creek.
I have a solve that includes Joan of Arc at legion of Honor. I know through reading through the threads that the el cid was either dug or was looked at. Was the Joan of arc monument dug up?
Also I have a solve that includes the one of the windmills. I know that there was extensive digging and landscaping there. Is there any part at either windmill that has been untouched since 1981.
Has anyone considered what the baseball batter in in image 1 in the far left upper hand corner of the image to the left of the palace of fine arts. It’s either a golfer at the very top of his back swing or it’s a batter with the bat cocked waiting for a pitch.
I live in SF most of the time, if you're good at digging or have experience if gardening, and you wanted to help, that would be great, that's all I need.
I don't need anyone's solve, because I have this
Rviewer1
MrBackstop wrote::
Reviewer, could you show what you are talking about with the batter/golfer image. I can't find it and I've never seen this brought up. I would love to check it out.
I had been using a version of image 1 that did not have a very good resolution. I found a version of image 1 on Facebook that a much better resolution. In the first version I could barely make out the palace of fine arts up in the top left hand corner. With the new image I can see a whole new world of images over there. If you look at the palace of fine arts and then move out into the sky directly to the left a little bit and then move downward you will see the a shadow out line of a person with a very thin looking golf club or bat cocked in the position ready to hit the ball.
When I first saw this I thought it may have been the windmill with the bat or golf club being mistaken for one of the windmill fan blades. But as I looked at it I could see the faint golf club or bat with the person in the classical pose. Work with it and let your eyes guide you in.
Rviewer1
Spiritr wrote::
I live in SF most of the time, if you're good at digging or have experience if gardening, and you wanted to help, that would be great, that's all I need.
I don't need anyone's solve, because I have this
.
Well I don’t have any gardening or digging experience but I wouldn’t mind coming along for the experience.
Rviewer1
I was looking at an old photo from I think 1980 or 81 at the De Young Museum and I noticed that the Asian Art Museam was connected to that version museum. There was a “Twain” out in front of it in the form of a “pair” of those Chinese spinx/lions siting there in much the same way the the Spinxes now sit at the new De Young Museum.
Can anyone confirm that this was the case with Asian Art Museum. Because if that was the case then the attention of their “Twain” was interesting.
Spiritr
ummm.....
are you good at at crossword puzzles? I need someone who's really good at crossword puzzles
Goonie68
Rviewer1 wrote::
I was looking at an old photo from I think 1980 or 81 at the De Young Museum and I noticed that the Asian Art Museam was connected to that version museum. There was a “Twain” out in front of it in the form of a “pair” of those Chinese spinx/lions siting there in much the same way the the Spinxes now sit at the new De Young Museum.
Can anyone confirm that this was the case with Asian Art Museum. Because if that was the case then the attention of their “Twain” was interesting.
Yes in front of the museum was a pair of Chinese lions, they are male and female,( Yin and Yang)
Rviewer1
Yes, it’s good fun. My line of thinking was that this Twain’s attention was looking past to Shakespeares’s Garden although it’s hard to tell from photos. That would be a double Twain. I also found a Twain in the image.
jayheedan1
Spiritr wrote::
speaking about Twain, he's famous.......
it reads like this:
To~wing do yeba, (Twain speaks about), he's famous......
that's it.
Not to be a naysayer but if we subscribe to the information from the Japanese translation:
Is the male lion there famous?
Rviewer1
That sounds like It’s referring to Mark Twain as famous. I was using the definition of a Twain which is defined as a couple or a pair.
Rviewer1
Traditionally the Chinese lion pairs such as the ones we are talking about, are the guardians of gates and portals and that the male lion usually has his paw on a stone pearl.
Goonie68
I am glad to see these conversations include the Asian Art Museum. Personally think the verse is depicting the person rather then a number, The word Twain represents 2 I don't think you would use Twain's as to represent the # 2, with it being plural. If the Asian Art Museum does play a part in the puzzle, could the image gives us a clue? Possibly the two A's on the dress? Or do the two A's stand for Arguello st? What I find interesting is that it appears that the two A's are slightly different, maybe representing two different words? Our them is Asian immigrants ....
Mister EZ
Goonie68 wrote::
I am glad to see these conversations include the Asian Art Museum. Personally think the verse is depicting the person rather then a number, The word Twain represents 2 I don't think you would use Twain's as to represent the # 2, with it being plural. If the Asian Art Museum does play a part in the puzzle, could the image gives us a clue? Possibly the two A's on the dress? Or do the two A's stand for Arguello st? What I find interesting is that it appears that the two A's are slightly different, maybe representing two different words? Our them is Asian immigrants ....
Wellll....there is a flipped (upside down and reversed) Yin Yang symbol on the right side of the dress...
Goonie68
Mister EZ wrote::
Wellll....there is a flipped (upside down and reversed) Yin Yang symbol on the right side of the dress...
Yes there is that to, the Chinese pavilion could also represent the Yin and Yang or the Buddha in the Japanese Garden could also represent the symbol.
Rviewer1
I like the word play on Twain. I was thinking that a giant step might be a “Mark Twain” as in two fathoms or 12 feet.
Spiritr
once you understand the significant of that symbol, you'll see the image in it's true form. It should be your first
moment.
Then the theme and the patterns will all make sense and connect , even if you can't see the map, the Verse will bring you there, so as long as you do it step by step, you don't need a google map, you don't need a wikipedia, all you need is a functional brain. There's a way to pair the Verses with the Paintings without even knowing which is which, once you figured out the method, everything will be as easy as ABC and 123, you don't have to be in SF to enjoy it, it's a wheelchair treasure hunt. It's supposed to be easy, this is not National Treasure, we don't have to take out a 100 dollar bill with a bottle of water to see the 2:22. BP made everything "too Secret", he overestimated his readers intelligence quotient.
Spiritr
Oops, did I just.....
Scrappy929
Hello all. I am new to the thread but have been researching these puzzles for quite some time. Nowhere near as long as some veterans here though. I live just north of Sacramento, about a 2-3 hr drive from San Francisco. I thought I would offer up some insight on some things I have discovered. This intro is a repeat of a post that I just wrote on the verse 7 thread. Just introducing myself here as well.
I’ve studied both the Chicago & Cleveland puzzles, verses and facts about the finds in order to gain as much insight into how those were solved and if any correlation between those two could be used to find others. One thing to I took special attention to, and has been mentioned here before, is that when the casque was buried (or maybe just before), a photo was taken at the burial site and that image was sent off to JJP. If you were to bury something and wanted to find it later, you would step back and take pictures of where you buried it while also capturing background images in order to recall at a later time.
Take a look at the Chicago image. From the burial site, you can see the fence and fixture that is in the image itself. In addition, you can also look across the busway and see the staircase that leads up to Jackson St. A small portion of the staircase can also be seen in the image. Preiss buries the casque, steps back several feet and captures the image of the burial location. In that picture, he would have also captured the fence and fixture and the staircase. In the Cleveland image, the same thing applies. After he buries the casque in the plot, he would have stepped back and captured the burial location which also includes the wall.
Going back to the conversation of Preiss’ daughters saying, “Where the treasure is buried, you can see all of the features that are in that illustration.” What is most likely meant is Preiss buries the casque, steps back and captures the image of the burial location. For both the Chicago & Cleveland illustrations, I broke down the clues in the illustration to what location they were referencing: state, city, or park. In addition, I took note if there was any rotation / reversing of the image and if they were in reference to the associated verse. For the Chicago puzzle, there was 1 state reference (image reversed), 5 city references, & 4 park references (2 referenced in the verse). For the Cleveland puzzle, there was 1 state reference, 5 city references (2 different image rotations), & 5 park references (3 referenced in verse with 1 image rotation).
What does all of this mean? It is known there are clues that lead you to which state, city, & park. All of the clues in the illustration are not going to be seen from the burial site, but the final location will be in the illustration. In addition, there will be clues in the illustration that would tell you that you are heading in the right direction.
I “walked” in Preiss’ shoes following the verses from beginning to the burial location. For the Chicago puzzle, I started at “Where M and B are set in stone” (Chicago Symphony Center) following the verse as if he were walking the path to the burial location. The distance was about 0.4 miles. For the Cleveland puzzle, I started at “Beneath two countries” again following the verse as if he were walking to the burial location. The distance was about 0.2 miles. For both, I could reference clues in the illustration that let me know I would have been on the right path. These are very short distances from where you start until where the casque is buried. This doesn’t necessarily mean that all solutions will follow in similarity, only shows a correlation between 2 solved puzzles.
Scrappy929
I’ve spent a considerable amount of time following the model I outlined above in trying to solve the San Francisco puzzle. I’ve been to Golden Gate Park numerous times recently, taking photos and exploring different ideas and different angles. I’ve also considered other areas of San Francisco as possible sites of interest but haven’t made a connection. If it holds true that the casque location can be seen in the image, then from what I have discovered so far, there are only 2 possible locations in Golden Gate Park.
The first possible location is the long double staircase that leads up to Stow Lake Drive from the back of the Japanese Tea Garden has a long metal hand rail. At the top of the staircase and on the end of the handrail, is the swirl that has been described on the image page that is similar in shape to what is on the bottom of the rose. There has also been mention of the casque being buried near or underneath the path that is at the top. However the path is covered with asphalt. There was mention that the park may have covered the path with asphalt to help bring the park up to code with the Americans With Disabilities Act. It is highly improbable that the park would have covered this path with asphalt at that time since the path seems a bit too steep to comply with the AWDA, not to mention the path, on both sides, leads to a staircase. To my knowledge, no one quite knows if this path was covered with asphalt at the time Preiss was visiting. The staircase at the top that leads to the path goes in two directions. Directly in front of the top of the staircase is a large tree that sits about 3-5 feet above the path ground level. This is where the tree roots are and there is mostly a man-made make shift concrete wall covering the roots. On either side of the staircase, there are a lot of trees as well. Digging around trees would seem not likely as you would encounter many tree roots.
The other location I have discovered can also be seen in the image (after reversing). However, when I “walk” the path from the verse to get there or at least in any current interpretation, it seems a bit of a reach at times.
Here is my walk… I mentioned most of it on the verse 7 thread.
1. At stone wall’s door
2. The air smells sweet
Starting at the wall in Shakespeare’s Garden, I walk a short distance to the Music Concourse
3. Not far away
4. High posts of three
Here I can turn and see Sutro tower.
5. Education and Justice
6. For all to see
Also from here, I can see the California Academy of Sciences and the statue of Sir Francis Scott Key
7. Sounds from the sky
8. Near ace is high
From here, I head towards Stow Lake and Strawberry Hill. To get there, I head up the long double staircase that leads up to Stow Lake Drive from the back of the Japanese Tea Garden that has a long metal hand rail with the swirl from the rose in the image. The could possibly be an image in the photo that lets me know I am heading in the right direction.
9. Running north but first across
I follow that staircase and path to Stow Lake Drive and that eventually leads me to JFK Dr (formerly North Drive). From there I go across JFK (North) Drive.
10. In jewel’s direction
11. Is an object of Twain’s attention
As previously mentioned in my verse 7 thread, In Jewel’s direction points me to a direction for which I will discover the treasure.
Here’s the reach… Right “across” “north” drive is the Doughboy Meadow next to the Redwood Grove. As for Twain’s attention, I am going to mention the object as Redwood trees (Sequoias & Redwoods are similar). I could also probably relate the Doughboy Statue as a war memorial to Twain somehow…
From:
https://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/trees/giantsequoia/history/
“A number of old growth trees were felled exactly to prove their existence (and to make money in the process). In 1891, for example, the "Mark Twain Tree" was felled. A slice of its trunk was sent to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, and another slice to the British Museum of Natural History in Kensington, London.”
I believe this Mark Twain tree was in Calaveras County, again… another Twain reference. Considering Preiss was from New York, maybe he knew of this piece of natural history. Another big reach…
Once I got to the Doughboy Meadow, I saw the Doughboy statue, flanked by 2 tall flagpoles. Here’s the kicker… the infamous aha moment. When I was following this train of thought, I happened to notice the statue, tucked quite a bit away from the walking path on JFK. The first thing I saw was the 2 large flagpoles. I was like, wait… giant pole!? I ventured over and when I first looked at the rock the statue was set on, I was like… hold on one freakin minute… I recognize that rock! I should as I have stared at image 1 for countless hours, as like many of you, and flipped that image every direction. If you flip (mirror the image) as is necessary to align the Gh correctly and to place the dragon head at the approximate location on the map with the Senior Center, the top rock in the image looks very similar as the rock the Doughboy statue sits on. The rectangular plaque also closely aligns with the window in the rock in the image, minus the bars. This statue has been in the park since 1930. However, I have yet to determine when the flagpoles would have been placed.
Yes… a lot of reaching here but some not so much. Just another possible solution amongst the many…
I attempted to lightly probe around the statue and just like most other similar places in Northern California, the probe only goes down about a foot before it becomes very difficult to push any further without a lot of force. I have tried a couple of different probes, even of different diameters, and both achieved about the same depth. I am not willing to force the probe down as I don’t want to hit an irrigation line. I figure if I wanted to really probe, I should have someone from the park there, aka permission, to steer me clear of irrigation lines. I know a few people here have dug at the park before. It seems to me if one were to dig, you would get about a foot down and then it would become increasingly difficult to go any further by using just a shovel. Preiss would have had this same difficulty using only a shovel. Doubtful it would be buried more than a foot or two in this park at the time. After years, possible it may be a little further down. I admit there are some areas in the park where the soil is much easier to probe. However, if you are going to probe or dig where grass is, good luck. Food for thought…
Scrappy929
I’ve spent a considerable amount of time following the model I outlined above in trying to solve the San Francisco puzzle. I’ve been to Golden Gate Park numerous times recently, taking photos and exploring different ideas and different angles. I’ve also considered other areas of San Francisco as possible sites of interest but haven’t made a connection. If it holds true that the casque location can be seen in the image, then from what I have discovered so far, there are only 2 possible locations in Golden Gate Park.
The first possible location is the long double staircase that leads up to Stow Lake Drive from the back of the Japanese Tea Garden has a long metal hand rail. At the top of the staircase and on the end of the handrail, is the swirl that has been described on the image page that is similar in shape to what is on the bottom of the rose. There has also been mention of the casque being buried near or underneath the path that is at the top. However the path is covered with asphalt. There was mention that the park may have covered the path with asphalt to help bring the park up to code with the Americans With Disabilities Act. It is highly improbable that the park would have covered this path with asphalt at that time since the path seems a bit too steep to comply with the AWDA, not to mention the path, on both sides, leads to a staircase. To my knowledge, no one quite knows if this path was covered with asphalt at the time Preiss was visiting. The staircase at the top that leads to the path goes in two directions. Directly in front of the top of the staircase is a large tree that sits about 3-5 feet above the path ground level. This is where the tree roots are and there is mostly a man-made make shift concrete wall covering the roots. On either side of the staircase, there are a lot of trees as well. Digging around trees would seem not likely as you would encounter many tree roots.
The other location I have discovered can also be seen in the image (after reversing). However, when I “walk” the path from the verse to get there or at least in any current interpretation, it seems a bit of a reach at times.
Here is my walk… I mentioned most of it on the verse 7 thread.
1. At stone wall’s door
2. The air smells sweet
Starting at the wall in Shakespeare’s Garden, I walk a short distance to the Music Concourse
3. Not far away
4. High posts of three
Here I can turn and see Sutro tower.
5. Education and Justice
6. For all to see
Also from here, I can see the California Academy of Sciences and the statue of Sir Francis Scott Key
7. Sounds from the sky
8. Near ace is high
From here, I head towards Stow Lake and Strawberry Hill. To get there, I head up the long double staircase that leads up to Stow Lake Drive from the back of the Japanese Tea Garden that has a long metal hand rail with the swirl from the rose in the image. The could possibly be an image in the photo that lets me know I am heading in the right direction.
9. Running north but first across
I follow that staircase and path to Stow Lake Drive and that eventually leads me to JFK Dr (formerly North Drive). From there I go across JFK (North) Drive.
10. In jewel’s direction
11. Is an object of Twain’s attention
As previously mentioned in my verse 7 thread, In Jewel’s direction points me to a direction for which I will discover the treasure.
Here’s the reach… Right “across” “north” drive is the Doughboy Meadow next to the Redwood Grove. As for Twain’s attention, I am going to mention the object as Redwood trees (Sequoias & Redwoods are similar). I could also probably relate the Doughboy Statue as a war memorial to Twain somehow…
From:
https://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/trees/giantsequoia/history/
“A number of old growth trees were felled exactly to prove their existence (and to make money in the process). In 1891, for example, the "Mark Twain Tree" was felled. A slice of its trunk was sent to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, and another slice to the British Museum of Natural History in Kensington, London.”
I believe this Mark Twain tree was in Calaveras County, again… another Twain reference. Considering Preiss was from New York, maybe he knew of this piece of natural history. Another big reach…
Once I got to the Doughboy Meadow, I saw the Doughboy statue, flanked by 2 tall flagpoles. Here’s the kicker… the infamous aha moment. When I was following this train of thought, I happened to notice the statue, tucked quite a bit away from the walking path on JFK. The first thing I saw was the 2 large flagpoles. I was like, wait… giant pole!? I ventured over and when I first looked at the rock the statue was set on, I was like… hold on one freakin minute… I recognize that rock! I should as I have stared at image 1 for countless hours, as like many of you, and flipped that image every direction. If you flip (mirror the image) as is necessary to align the Gh correctly and to place the dragon head at the approximate location on the map with the
Senior
Center, the top rock in the image looks very similar as the rock the Doughboy statue sits on. The rectangular plaque also closely aligns with the window in the rock in the image, minus the bars. This statue has been in the park since 1930. However, I have yet to determine when the flagpoles would have been placed.
Yes… a lot of reaching here but some not so much. Just another possible solution amongst the many…
I attempted to lightly probe around the statue and just like most other similar places in Northern California, the probe only goes down about a foot before it becomes very difficult to push any further without a lot of force. I have tried a couple of different probes, even of different diameters, and both achieved about the same depth. I am not willing to force the probe down as I don’t want to hit an irrigation line. I figure if I wanted to really probe, I should have someone from the park there, aka permission, to steer me clear of irrigation lines. I know a few people here have dug at the park before. It seems to me if one were to dig, you would get about a foot down and then it would become increasingly difficult to go any further by using just a shovel. Preiss would have had this same difficulty using only a shovel. Doubtful it would be buried more than a foot or two in this park at the time. After years, possible it may be a little further down. I admit there are some areas in the park where the soil is much easier to probe. However, if you are going to probe or dig where grass is, good luck. Food for thought…
Scrappy929
Another image of the Doughboy statue
Scrappy929
Another “Giant” reach…
As far as stone wall’s door, most here know that there is a stone wall in the NE section of the park. It is not a very big wall, only about 3 feet high. If you start at the NE corner and start walking west along Fulton St, you will arrive at the entrance at Arguello Blvd. At this entrance, there are 2 very tall stone pillars with ornamentation on them. On this ornamentation, you will see the leafy petals that look very similar to the ones on the rose in the image.
If you continue from this entrance into the park, you will come to a path that is on the backside of the Conservatory of Flowers. On a clear day from this point, you can see “high posts of three.” The buildings that can also be seen by the “high posts of three”… University of San Francisco (Education). So you can kind of get started from the verse at these locations. It quickly goes nowhere from here. Having no reference to Justice at this point. For gee whiz, I kept walking the path and just on the opposite side of JFK drive (formerly North drive) are tennis courts… ace is high maybe?... meh. Not to mention, you can connect so many monuments and other things to Twain that you quickly lose any direction to where you might have thought.
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
once you understand the significant of that symbol, you'll see the image in it's true form. It should be your first
moment.
Then the theme and the patterns will all make sense and connect , even if you can't see the map, the Verse will bring you there, so as long as you do it step by step, you don't need a google map, you don't need a wikipedia, all you need is a functional brain. There's a way to pair the Verses with the Paintings without even knowing which is which, once you figured out the method, everything will be as easy as ABC and 123, you don't have to be in SF to enjoy it, it's a wheelchair treasure hunt. It's supposed to be easy, this is not National Treasure, we don't have to take out a 100 dollar bill with a bottle of water to see the 2:22. BP made everything "too Secret", he overestimated his readers intelligence quotient.
Spiritr wrote::
Oops, did I just.....
Yes. You did.
You successfully proved, once again, that you've decided to be a tool for some unknown reason.
Here's a verse for you to interpret:
The posting style
Of Tool, nothing to strive for
Oftentimes discounts
Logic and reason
Shall be misconstrued
Hint: Tool is a noun. Clearly.
MERLIN
Has anyone noticed the dragons claws make the letters C -O- and if you continue on that same line the roman numeral makes I - T - essentially spelling COIT.
Spiritr
FINALLY!
go on~ I wanna hear what else you see
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
Has anyone noticed the dragons claws make the letters C -O- and if you continue on that same line the roman numeral makes I - T - essentially spelling COIT.
I see how the claws could be a C - O.
And, liking at the Roman numerals that's along the same line, I see the 'I'. But, the 'T' is split at the bottom....not exactly a 'T'.
Considering the upsidedown/backwards Yin Yang symbol....other symbols are also flipped....maybe?
That may not be an upside down Roman numeral IV.....maybe It's an upside down, backwards VI.
With the claws, that makes it "COVI" if connecting the claws and the Roman numeral...which fits with nothing.
(Or, it is COIT...)
=]
MERLIN
Under magnification to the right of the girls head - to the right of the 38 you will see a post shaped rock with three evenly spaced colors embedded in it. Can you see it?
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
Under magnification to the right of the girls head - to the right of the 38 you will see a post shaped rock with three evenly spaced colors embedded in it. Can you see it?
I'm not near my book (or, various PDF / scans)...so, I see what you mean, but can neither confirm nor deny that the colors (dots) on the rock (post) weren't scanning anomalies.
MERLIN
If you continue on that same line all the way to the right you will see Coit tower in the fog.
WhiteRabbit
Mister EZ wrote::
I see what you mean, but can neither confirm nor deny that the colors (dots) on the rock (post) weren't scanning anomalies.
For sure they are. Any coloured dots or wolves people see by blowing up the old scans, forget it.
MERLIN
If you look to the left of the girls head - to the left of the 37 can you see a round shape that looks like it is being held by long fingers?
Spiritr
WhiteRabbit wrote::
For sure they are. Any coloured dots or wolves people see by blowing up the old scans, forget it.
so after so many years, someone so new and of his second post he already point out the CORRECT location, and you just wanna forget it?
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
If you look to the left of the girls head - to the left of the 37 can you see a round shape that looks like it is being held by long fingers?
no, those are things you'll see once you laid the image FLAT
MERLIN
Spiritr wrote::
no, those are things you'll see once you laid the image FLAT
NO.....Look again......Please don't judge me by my post count here - it is not a reflection of my time spent researching.
WhiteRabbit
MERLIN wrote::
If you look to the left of the girls head - to the left of the 37 can you see a round shape that looks like it is being held by long fingers?
Yep...incidentally, just to illustrate the "coloured dot" principle, the old scan has a red dot on the right "finger" (above left), but it's an artifact that isn't visible in the book. If you compare it to one of Wicket's recent scans (above right), you can see it's not there.
(In general, Wicket's scans are a handy cross-reference for this kind of thing; they're available
here
.)
(...and, I do like the Coit tower, I just like to discourage people from looking at tiny coloured dots...)
MERLIN
We're not looking for colored dots on the left....only the right. Can you see the ball shaped rock on the left?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
he already point out the CORRECT location
Well, that remains to be seen. By my count, there are four or five (could be more, it's hard to tell sometimes) distinct solves for San Francisco at this very moment in various stages of discovery. All seem confident that at the very least, they are in the correct area, but of course that can't be true since all four seem to be in different areas or parks. Which is to say, while none have to be correct, only one can be correct (unless there is more than one casque buried in Northern California).
So, the best of luck to you all. I hope you find what you are looking for.
MERLIN
Mister EZ wrote::
I see how the claws could be a C - O.
And, liking at the Roman numerals that's along the same line, I see the 'I'. But, the 'T' is split at the bottom....not exactly a 'T'.
Considering the upsidedown/backwards Yin Yang symbol....other symbols are also flipped....maybe?
That may not be an upside down Roman numeral IV.....maybe It's an upside down, backwards VI.
With the claws, that makes it "COVI" if connecting the claws and the Roman numeral...which fits with nothing.
(Or, it is COIT...)
=]
Remember this was painted by JJP. The guy who added a Windmill to the tower in image 5 that was solved. Images will be slightly altered or modified.
WhiteRabbit
MERLIN wrote::
We're not looking for colored dots on the left....only the right.
MERLIN wrote::
...you will see a post shaped rock with three evenly spaced colors embedded in it...
Unknown:
Can you see the ball shaped rock on the left?
OK, but just for reference, there aren't really any colored dots anywhere.
Dotty old scan left, new scan right; unfortunately the new scan doesn't reveal good detail here and has plenty artifacts of its own, but in the book - no dots.
...towards the upper left of the pic in the previous post...?
Spiritr
just ignore me, I wasn't fully awake....
MERLIN
WhiteRabbit wrote::
OK, but just for reference, there aren't really any colored dots anywhere.
Dotty old scan left, new scan right; unfortunately the new scan doesn't reveal good detail here and has plenty artifacts of its own, but in the book - no dots.
...towards the upper left of the pic in the previous post...?
Yes
MERLIN
The original paintings were done in color. When they were published some fine detail may have been lost. Maybe that's why no one has been able to solve them. - just a thought.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
When they were published some fine detail may have been lost.
No doubt. That probably explains why so many people want to talk to JJP, and see the originals for themselves.
MERLIN
TEST.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 83/27a.png
Scrappy929
Reposting of the Doughboy Statue / Image 1 rock comparison. Image seemed too large to be fully seen on iPad on original post.
maltedfalcon
MERLIN wrote::
If you look to the left of the girls head - to the left of the 37 can you see a round shape that looks like it is being held by long fingers?
Ah you mean the butt of El Cid's horse, yes, what about it?
MERLIN
Can you see a small frog on top of the ball? You will be seeing it's back.
maltedfalcon
MERLIN wrote::
Can you see a small frog on top of the ball? You will be seeing it's back.
no I see a large Knight
WhiteRabbit
MERLIN wrote::
Can you see a small frog on top of the ball? You will be seeing it's back.
Do you mean this...?
MERLIN
WhiteRabbit wrote::
Do you mean this...?
The larger image just to the left of that.
MERLIN
possibly both of them
maltedfalcon
MERLIN wrote::
possibly both of them
That's Babieca's tail.
maltedfalcon
The Picture Path for SF.
maltedfalcon
This was I thought when it was at the seaman's monument, but it wasn't there.
MERLIN
https://i0.wp.com/travelphotodiscovery. ... teps-9.jpg
MERLIN
That's some intense research my friend.....very impressive
Scrappy929
Nice work mf! I have some catching up to do with your work.
I had a take on the part on her forehead as well. In the image below, the red line is where the infamous double staircase is with the swirl on the end of the handrail. Closely aligns with the thin part in her hair.
Scrappy929
Something I spotted awhile back.
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
Another possible LoH connection for the shape in her forehead...
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
Another possible LoH connection for the shape in her forehead...
true ,there are tons, however none other than fort point and the golden gate,
fulfill the verse lines
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
from the LOH you can see Highway 1 running north away from you but first running across the golden gate bridge
and we know things in the verses that you can see from the casque area are referenced in the image
ie Fence and Fixture too
Scrappy929
I previously mentioned that I “walked” in Preiss’ shoes following the verses from beginning to the burial location. The purpose of this exercise was to get an idea of how far the verse might take us. This could establish some plausibility of a potential solve, if one were to have to walk a long distance or short. Both were short walking distances from beginning to end. Maybe something to keep in mind. Here are the images of the "walk."
maltedfalcon
well I believe you have Cleveland totally wrong.
Because you avoid all the images in the garden. and also since we used the horsetail to get from East Dr to East Dr to get to the columns
it does't make sense to use it again.
More likely the path goes from the columns through the garden past the fountains to the wall past the wall to the area you can view liberty drive and the steps
and there is the dig site.
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
well I believe you have Cleveland totally wrong.
Because you avoid all the images in the garden. and also since we used the horsetail to get from East Dr to East Dr to get to the columns
it does't make sense to use it again.
More likely the path goes from the columns through the garden past the fountains to the wall past the wall to the area you can view liberty drive and the steps
and there is the dig site.
No quite sure I am totally wrong on this. I know there was some discussion as to the verse being out of order. I thought as we follow the bend in Parkgate Ave, we could see the back wall of the Italian Gardens and the image matches found there, no? Beneath two countries... As the road curves...?
Don't want to get too far off topic. Like I said, it was just a simple exercise to see approximate walking distance from beginning to end, however you get there...
Scrappy929
Unknown:
true ,there are tons, however none other than fort point and the golden gate,
fulfill the verse lines
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
from the LOH you can see Highway 1 running north away from you but first running across the golden gate bridge
and we know things in the verses that you can see from the casque area are referenced in the image
ie Fence and Fixture too
Absolutely true. There seems to be an an absurd amount of bell shapes that could match. I totally agree with the final location being in the image as I referenced here previously... fence & fixture / wall in Greek Cultural Garden. Both of these finds had physical image connections to the location.
Here was the added connection with the staircase leading up to Jackson St for the Chicago solve that I mentioned as well that would have been a background image captured from that point of view. The photo view below was from an article about the find with the red highlighted area being the approximate location of the casque as mentioned in the article.
Scrappy929
Hey mf, have you ever took note or made mention of the very distinct shadow the stopwatch makes on the table while the rose & vines do not?
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
Here was the added connection with the staircase leading up to Jackson St for the Chicago solve that I mentioned as well that would have been a background image captured from that point of view. The photo view below was from an article about the find with the red highlighted area being the approximate location of the casque as mentioned in the article.
I see it , I' m not sure it matches, being in front of the fence. and the angle is close, maybe it matches better from a different view. but just one angle is like the swirl in SF, swirls are everywhere.
Is that a match? maybe, im just not sure about it, ie the fence and the fixture are dead on...
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
Hey mf, have you ever took note or made mention of the very distinct shadow the stopwatch makes on the table while the rose & vines do not?
yes if you look under the watch, you will see what seems to be feet.... they actually are the center of the fountain
which was a round ring that held nozzles and lights. it was in the fountain in 81. So the shadow you see is not of the clock but of the ring in the fountain.
Scrappy929
Unknown:
yes if you look under the watch, you will see what seems to be feet.... they actually are the center of the fountain
which was a round ring that held nozzles and lights. it was in the fountain in 81. So the shadow you see is not of the clock but of the ring in the fountain.
Ok, cool. I figured you had, just wasn't sure your thoughts on that. Thanks.
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
The photo view below was from an article about the find with the red highlighted area being the approximate location of the casque as mentioned in the article.
BTW the foto with the red spot is extremely out of date. the actual location is to the left of the red spot probably 10 or fifteen feet.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
the actual location is to the left of the red spot probably 10 or fifteen feet.
Which would have put them at the base of a tall tree. And yet, in every interview that I have ever seen, no one in the group ever mentions how hard it was to dig the hole for all the roots. Twenty feet away would have put them directly in line with the decorative fence post seen in the Image, and far enough away from the tree that the roots wouldn't have been an issue. But if that's where they were digging, you would think it would be easy to recreate the spot given the obvious landmark. I mean, it would have been in the picture Preiss sent them, right?
catherwood
I think we're drifting off-topic and it begins to confuse me. San Francisco, please, not Chicago, or at least stick to the contents of Image 1 here. Talk of digging in the roots of a tree near a fence can be mentioned for comparison, but we're losing focus (again).
I was about to post another version of my picture of the rock wall opposite the Cliff House, which would be off the map posted above by maltedfalcon. I can't unsee the face in the hill, but it doesn't fit with the clues.
As for the shadow of the stopwatch, I see the rose-vine-spiral thing located behind it on the table and thus it casts no shadow to match.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Which would have put them at the base of a tall tree. And yet, in every interview that I have ever seen, no one in the group ever mentions how hard it was to dig the hole for all the roots. Twenty feet away would have put them directly in line with the decorative fence post seen in the Image, and far enough away from the tree that the roots wouldn't have been an issue. But if that's where they were digging, you would think it would be easy to recreate the spot given the obvious landmark. I mean, it would have been in the picture Preiss sent them, right?
oh sorry I was watching the new video from the podcast guys where they had Rob Wrobel one of the chicago guys and he showed them exactly where it was.
90 degrees off the fence and 90 degrees off the fixture. and he explained where they had been digging and how they had got it wrong even with the picture.
and far enough away from the tree that, no, roots were not an issue at all.
maltedfalcon
Sorry Catherwood! back to image 1 stuff....
The white spheres at the top... Golfballs!
MERLIN
maltedfalcon wrote::
true ,there are tons, however none other than fort point and the golden gate,
fulfill the verse lines
Near ace is high
Running north, but first across
from the LOH you can see Highway 1 running north away from you but first running across the golden gate bridge
and we know things in the verses that you can see from the casque area are referenced in the image
ie Fence and Fixture too
Are you guys aware that the physical address of Coit Tower is #1 Telegraph Hil.....1 - Ace Baby!!!
maltedfalcon
MERLIN wrote::
Are you guys aware that the physical address of Coit Tower is #1 Telegraph Hil.....1 - Ace Baby!!!
if you could get to coit tower from Golden Gate park in the manner followed in Chicago or cleveland... I would say that's a good idea. but nobody has been able to do that. so I've always been "ehhh" on the idea of coit. And to answer your question yes.
MERLIN
maltedfalcon wrote::
if you could get to coit tower from Golden Gate park in the manner followed in Chicago or cleveland... I would say that's a good idea. but nobody has been able to do that. so I've always been "ehhh" on the idea of coit. And to answer your question yes.
You're starting at the wrong "Stone Walls Door".
Kalessin
Or maybe the Coit Tower is the starting point for the path...
There is nothing to say that the first lines of the verse must be the starting point.
maltedfalcon
Kalessin wrote::
Or maybe the Coit Tower is the starting point for the path...
There is nothing to say that the first lines of the verse must be the starting point.
No there is nothing in the verse. or the book or the rules, but if we look at chicago image there is the water tower, If you look at cleveland image there is the transit building.... if you look at SF image there is golden gate park...
Just trying to follow the previous examples...
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
No there is nothing in the verse. or the book or the rules, but if we look at chicago image there is the water tower, If you look at cleveland image there is the transit building.... if you look at SF image there is golden gate park...
Just trying to follow the previous examples...
Very good point. Both the Cleveland Terminal Tower & Chicago Water Tower were major city landmarks that led the reader to the correct city (Cleveland image rotated) along with the long/lat coordinates. However, neither is where the casque was found. The Golden Gate Park image here is the major city landmark for SF in the image (rotated). This is why I doubt the casque is in GGP, although I am continually drawn back. I guess using the Golden Gate Bridge as the major city landmark would have been too obvious. Having chosen the park as the city landmark and the casques discovered thus far having been found in parks, it is quite misleading.
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
I guess using the Golden Gate Bridge as the major city landmark would have been too obvious. Having chosen the park as the city landmark and the casques discovered thus far having been found in parks, it is quite misleading.
when you think about construction of the puzzle. pick a location for the casque then BP had to go backwards from there to an icon
Easy in Chicago, right down Michigan.
a little tougher in Cleveland but once you get to Euclid a straight shot to the building.
SF is a bit weird as there are only two ways out of LOH, one gets lost in the houses at china beach ... and then gets blocked by the presidio...
but the other one...
34th only goes to golden gate park..... if that is how the puzzles were designed, he did not have a choice for the iconic image
it had to be golden gate park.
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
when you think about construction of the puzzle. pick a location for the casque then BP had to go backwards from there to an icon
Easy in Chicago, right down Michigan.
a little tougher in Cleveland but once you get to Euclid a straight shot to the building.
SF is a bit weird as there are only two ways out of LOH, one gets lost in the houses at china beach ... and then gets blocked by the presidio...
but the other one...
34th only goes to golden gate park..... if that is how the puzzles were designed, he did not have a choice for the iconic image
it had to be golden gate park.
I hadn't previously considered working back to the iconic image from the casque locations. Really good insight. Thank you.
Kalessin
If an iconic building is a start point for the path, and using my proposed hidden image of the Coit Tower in the shadows to the left of the rose (the squared-off base is immediately to the rose's left), and then maybe going by Lombard Street (also iconic) to the cable car turntable at Hyde & Beach (right near Ghirardelli Square, represented by the round table with an arguable outline of a cable car on the table leg, and the image of a cable car bell as the winder on the stem of the watch), does that give a plausible enough start to a path in SF that ends up in GGP somewhere?
At least it means the avid hunter can ride the cable cars to investigate!
maltedfalcon
Kalessin wrote::
If an iconic building is a start point for the path, and using my proposed hidden image of the Coit Tower in the shadows to the left of the rose (the squared-off base is immediately to the rose's left), and then maybe going by Lombard Street (also iconic) to the cable car turntable at Hyde & Beach (right near Ghirardelli Square, represented by the round table with an arguable outline of a cable car on the table leg, and the image of a cable car bell as the winder on the stem of the watch), does that give a plausible enough start to a path in SF that ends up in GGP somewhere?
At least it means the avid hunter can ride the cable cars to investigate!
Well except the iconic image isnt hidden. its obvious in the paintings
and the dragon (II am assuming thats lombard) why is it in the middle of golden gate park? can you show the path. with the turnings called out in the image.
we can do that in chicago and cleveland and st augustine and charleston etc etc...
Spiritr
may I ask who is "Matte" in the podcast?
burnstyle
Spiritr wrote::
may I ask who is "Matte" in the podcast?
Matt is maltedfalcon
Spiritr
burnstyle wrote::
Matt is maltedfalcon
Kalessin
maltedfalcon wrote::
Well except the iconic image isnt hidden. its obvious in the paintings
and the dragon (II am assuming thats lombard) why is it in the middle of golden gate park? can you show the path. with the turnings called out in the image.
we can do that in chicago and cleveland and st augustine and charleston etc etc...
By "hidden", I meant the proposed thing I posted, a possible image of the Coit Tower concealed in the shadows to the left of the rose.
The interpretations of the verse are literally all over the place. I wasn't posting a complete solve, I was just suggesting there's enough to use the Coit Tower and a cable car turntable as a starting point and a waypoint.
Putting the shape of Lombard street on the image of GGP? It doesn't mean that it has to be taken literally as being inside the park... And Lombard is also part of the cable car system.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I was just suggesting there's enough to use the Coit Tower and a cable car turntable as a starting point and a waypoint.
You can't just use arbitrary connections to make arbitrary connections because they suit your pre-conceived notions. Apparently there is a formula for where to start, where to turn, and where to stop. Unfortunately, only Matt seems to know what this formula (in its entirety) is, and he's not sharing.
By the way Matt, it's "kill it with an ax", not "beat it with a stick". But thanks for the shout-out.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Unfortunately, only Matt seems to know what this formula (in its entirety) is, and he's not sharing.
Lets see, I've done two podcasts about it.
I have started an entire thread about it, years ago.
I've posted illustrated maps (here I will repost them below... for you)
I have explained it on Q4t and FB and The wiki (admittedly the sysadmin at the wiki kept taking it down, because it caused you to leave Golden Gate Park.)
But one more time so you can take an axe to it... I will try to use small words.
There is in most images, an Iconic image. (in the images without an iconic image, the iconic "image" is called out in the verse)
Start at the icon.
move down the road the icon is on keep going straight(or follow the major flow of traffic) (i.e Cleveland is on a Square you could keep going counterclockwise around the square forever or you can peel off on the biggest street Euclid)
Keep going until you find /see something that is in the image.
Turn there. (its possible the alignment of the thing you see in the image shows you which way to turn, but there is not enough data to prove that yet.)
in Chicago you turn at the Bowman he faces left you turn left
In Cleveland you go down Euclid to you come to Triangle Plaza (the sign in the 80s matched the triangle on the sphere) , it points left, go left.
In Chicago the verse has kicked in by then so follow the verse you are in the park where the casque is...
in Clevland you turn onto ford, but it dumps straight on to east... and then enters the horseshoe curve that takes you around shows you to ignore the other turns and stay on East Dr. This takes you straight to the curved road by the columns. You are then at the park and the verse takes over.
In San Francisco our obvious iconic image is golden gate park. there are over 200 ways out of the park. which one could it be? well she is pointing at 43 but if you reverse the image, the 34th.
34th goes straight up the hill to lincoln park (and the lincoln image calls out you have arrived. then the verse takes over.
I also believe the methodology migrates from iconic image in the image with the final clues in the verse - to- iconic image in the verse with final clues in the image. and as they get more difficult it changes from one to the other.
Simple Logical and consistent. unlike the slow spill
maltedfalcon
Kalessin wrote::
By "hidden", I meant the proposed thing I posted, a possible image of the Coit Tower concealed in the shadows to the left of the rose.
The interpretations of the verse are literally all over the place. I wasn't posting a complete solve, I was just suggesting there's enough to use the Coit Tower and a cable car turntable as a starting point and a waypoint.
Putting the shape of Lombard street on the image of GGP? It doesn't mean that it has to be taken literally as being inside the park... And Lombard is also part of the cable car system.
Of course you are correct in that we just don't know I was explaining how I think it works so that a concealed in the shadows image would not count as an iconic image obviously placed in the painting.
And yes the cable cars cross lombard (twice) but I really would not count Lombard as any part of the cable car system. it runs perpendicular to the the system....
Kalessin
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
You can't just use arbitrary connections to make arbitrary connections because they suit your pre-conceived notions. Apparently there is a formula for where to start, where to turn, and where to stop. Unfortunately, only Matt seems to know what this formula (in its entirety) is, and he's not sharing.
By the way Matt, it's "kill it with an ax", not "beat it with a stick". But thanks for the shout-out.
Really, I have no preconceived notions about the SF puzzle; I also don't mind having what I come up with called wrong. I've visited the city a few times, but I'm not a resident and don't have the budget to travel there for digs, and I haven't found any clues other than some small things in the image that people hadn't noted before.
I don't know anyone else's formula, so I'm reduced to guessing on my own.
The start of a possible path in my guess was Coit Tower --> Lombard St coming off of Telegraph Hill --> Cable car stop at Lombard & Hyde, ride to the turntable at Powell & Hyde, which is right by Ghirardelli Square. Pretty long walk, though.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Simple Logical and consistent...
Well, if that's true, we should see a significant increase in the number of dig permits requested for Legion, and a significant decrease in the number of dig permits requested for all the other parks in San Francisco, including GGP.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I don't know Matt's formula either
Now you do Kalessin. I have tried to make it work across the puzzle (which I freely admit is a bias on my part), and I have had no luck without so many modifications that it became essentially worthless, especially for the cities where there are a lot of parks from which to choose. Perhaps you (and anyone else who is reading this) will find it more useful. Good luck.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Well, if that's true, we should see a significant increase in the number of dig permits requested for Legion, and a significant decrease in the number of dig permits requested for all the other parks in San Francisco, including GGP.
Yes I certainly hope so, I would love to see the SF casque found...
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
, especially for the cities where there are a lot of parks from which to choose.
Oh and it doesn't necessarily lead to a "Park" it just leads to the area the casque was buried.
Spiritr
Matt when will you come to the bay again? Since you have the actual book, I was hoping maybe we can meet up and I just want to take a look at it.
MERLIN
Could Alcatraz be the iconic image for SF?
MERLIN
Check this out guys - source of dragon - scroll down -
hxxp://cultofthegreeniguana.blogspot.co ... tatue.html
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
Oh and it doesn't necessarily lead to a "Park" it just leads to the area the casque was buried.
Hey MF, great work! I want to make sure I did not miss anything. So we’re running north but first across in jewels direction.
Is your jewel based on TLOH where you placed the the pic? Also when we cross the GGB and continue north to the object of Twain’s attention, then Giant pole, Giant step to the place the casque is kept? You don’t have to tell me of where you are thinking but is my understanding of how you laid it out correct?
Scrappy929
Hey MF. Found a few images of interest in Lincoln Park. Have you investigated this yet? It can be seen from LoH Drive on the right hand side. Sits between holes 1 & 13.
Couldn't find an image that shows a good view of the back side.
Apparently it is an old Chinese cemetery plot. According to
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Places-in-San-Francisco-you-had-no-idea-used-to-10418610.php
, "On Hole 1 just off the fairway, you'll run into an out-of-place cement structure with Cantonese writing on top. It's a Chinese funerary structure where the dead were kept before being buried, with food and other offerings for the dead." I was reading that the Chinese portion of the old cemetery encompassed fairway holes 1 & 13.
The top right side of the post has a shape very similar to the top of the pocket watch in the image.
WhiteRabbit
MERLIN wrote::
Check this out guys - source of dragon - scroll down -
hxxp://cultofthegreeniguana.blogspot.co ... tatue.html
A 2002 statue in Philadelphia?
MERLIN
C,mon Rabbit.....Where's the love????
WhiteRabbit
There's a time and a place. Save it for the slow spill.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Save it for the slow spill.
Save what for the "Slow Spill" WR? There doesn't seem to be anything here that belongs in that thread either.
strike13
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Save what for the "Slow Spill" WR? There doesn't seem to be anything here that belongs in that thread either.
why is it slow anyway? and why does information need to be saved?
Hirudiniforme
strike13 wrote::
why is it slow anyway? and why does information need to be saved?
There is a somewhat tangential strategy involved that prompts it to be slow. The primary strategy of the thread is to release a lot of information, mostly fact, with little-to-no opinion. The tangential strategy is the AKA portion, which involves waiting for opportune times to post it.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
why is it slow anyway
I'm pretty sure this question was addressed in the thread Strike. But in case it was a casualty of the purge, the short answer is to give people a chance to figure things out for themselves*. It's still a puzzle, isn't it?
*Note: I am not now, nor have I ever claimed to have all the answers. And I have retrieved the exact same number of casques as most of the posters on this forum, which is to say the the next one I dig up will be my first. All I am saying is that there has to be an objective, logical way to solve this puzzle, and the next person who can put all the steps together is the person most likely to find Casque #3, or lead someone else directly to it.
*Note to White Rabbit: This belongs in the "Slow Spill" thread.
strike13
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I'm pretty sure this question was addressed in the thread Strike. But in case it was a casualty of the purge, the short answer is to give people a chance to figure things out for themselves*. It's still a puzzle, isn't it?
*Note: I am not now, nor have I ever claimed to have all the answers. And I have retrieved the exact same number of casques as most of the posters on this forum, which is to say the the next one I dig up will be my first. All I am saying is that there has to be an objective, logical way to solve this puzzle, and the next person who can put all the steps together is the person most likely to find Casque #3, or lead someone else directly to it.
*Note to White Rabbit: This belongs in the "Slow Spill" thread.
haha casualty of the purge
I know what you mean....it is a fun, maddening puzzle
catherwood
WhiteRabbit wrote::
A 2002 statue in Philadelphia?
Dragons are so iconic and depicted in so many instances, it would take a *precise* and *exact* overlay match to make any claims. A wavy S-shape does not appear to be any source for the curls and loops in our image, neither a random dragon artwork nor the path of Lombard Street. While I am open to being convinced of a template source, I'll be happy with the artist having the freedom to generate his own dragon for symbolic meaning rather than a guidepost.
Goonie68
catherwood wrote::
Dragons are so iconic and depicted in so many instances, it would take a *precise* and *exact* overlay match to make any claims. A wavy S-shape does not appear to be any source for the curls and loops in our image, neither a random dragon artwork nor the path of Lombard Street. While I am open to being convinced of a template source, I'll be happy with the artist having the freedom to generate his own dragon for symbolic meaning rather than a guidepost.
This to me is pretty much an exact match. Bump on the head matches, placement of the teeth match, the outcrop of the nose matches and the curve on the neck matches. I have not seen anything close to a match then the Iron work.
Merlot Brougham
Goonie68 wrote::
This to me is pretty much an exact match. Bump on the head matches, placement of the teeth match, the outcrop of the nose matches and the curve on the neck matches. I have not seen anything close to a match then the Iron work.
You're talking about a completely different dragon, though.
maltedfalcon
Rviewer1 wrote::
No we are not running north, Highway 1 runs north but first across the golden gate bridge, as you look out from the legion of honor this is the view directly in front of the arched barred gate.
we are at the legion of honor.
These are all things we see around us without moving.
Highway 1/Golden Gate Bridges.
Angel Island
Sutro Tower
San Francisco University and San Francisco Law School
The Legion of honor
El Cid Statue (giant pole)
Joan of Arc.
Fort Point
The Fountain
The seaman's monument
the parking lot
Golf balls
Just out of sight
the windows with the sleeve design
the coast that matches the left arm
Golden Gate Park
Does that make sense?
maltedfalcon
Rviewer1 wrote::
No we are not
running
north, Highway 1 runs north but first across the golden gate bridge, as you look out from the legion of honor this is the view directly in front of the arched barred gate.
we are at the legion of honor.
These are all things we see around us without moving.
Highway 1/Golden Gate Bridges.
Angel Island
Sutro Tower
San Francisco University and San Francisco Law School
The Legion of honor
El Cid Statue (giant pole)
Joan of Arc.
Fort Point
The Fountain
The seaman's monument
the parking lot
Golf balls
Just out of sight
the windows with the sleeve design
the coast that matches the left arm
Golden Gate Park
Does that make sense?
maltedfalcon
Merlot Brougham wrote::
OK great, let's say for argument purposes that,
The head neck of the dragon in the image is without a doubt based on a photo that BP took and sent to JJP
Now do we care?, yes sure, but does it rise to the level of a clue that we need to know to resolve the puzzle...?
a 1 foot tall phoenix(peacock) on an obscure senior center on the backside of Golden Gate Park....
I see it as local color.. it is near 34th ave. it is part of Golden Gate Park, therefore it makes our image of Golden Gate Park more authentic.
it certainly could be something that a local would recognize. but again on the level of "hey there's the Chicago Water tower, With windmill arms,, it must mean the windy city!!"
But I do not in any way see it as a clue that helps guide us.... but that's just my opinion, YMMV.
Goonie68
You're talking about a completely different dragon, though.[/quote]
Yes, but how does a dragon dedicated in 2004 have anything to do with this puzzle?
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
OK great, let's say for argument purposes that,
The head neck of the dragon in the image is without a doubt based on a photo that BP took and sent to JJP
Now do we care?, yes sure, but does it rise to the level of a clue that we need to know to resolve the puzzle...?
a 1 foot tall phoenix(peacock) on an obscure senior center on the backside of Golden Gate Park....
I see it as local color.. it is near 34th ave. it is part of Golden Gate Park, therefore it makes our image of Golden Gate Park more authentic.
it certainly could be something that a local would recognize. but again on the level of "hey there's the Chicago Water tower, With windmill arms,, it must mean the windy city!!"
But I do not in any way see it as a clue that helps guide us.... but that's just my opinion, YMMV.
The verse states" At stone walls door"....how do you verify which door? We are looking for a door correct? If we know that the map is GGP and looking from the outside working in (for people who think that GGP is the location of the casque) our "Bowman" would be the iron work above the door to confirm that is the Door. Getting to the door is a whole other discussion.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
The verse states" At stone walls door"....how do you verify which door? We are looking for a door correct? If we know that the map is GGP and looking from the outside working in (for people who think that GGP is the location of the casque) our "Bowman" would be the iron work above the door to confirm that is the Door. Getting to the door is a whole other discussion.
Door, gate, hole in the wall - my guess is you should look to the image to confirm the door. there are many ideas for this, this is mine.
strike13
[/quote][/quote]
OK great, let's say for argument purposes that,
The head neck of the dragon in the image is without a doubt based on a photo that BP took and sent to JJP
Now do we care?, yes sure, but does it rise to the level of a clue that we need to know to resolve the puzzle...?
a 1 foot tall phoenix(peacock) on an obscure senior center on the backside of Golden Gate Park....
I see it as local color.. it is near 34th ave. it is part of Golden Gate Park, therefore it makes our image of Golden Gate Park more authentic.
it certainly could be something that a local would recognize. but again on the level of "hey there's the Chicago Water tower, With windmill arms,, it must mean the windy city!!"
But I do not in any way see it as a clue that helps guide us.... but that's just my opinion, YMMV.[/quote]
The verse states" At stone walls door"....how do you verify which door? We are looking for a door correct? If we know that the map is GGP and looking from the outside working in (for people who think that GGP is the location of the casque) our "Bowman" would be the iron work above the door to confirm that is the Door. Getting to the door is a whole other discussion.[/quote]
I like Jackson Sq for Stonewall...Stonewall Jackson.
Sorry, I'll just stick to Boston
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
Door, gate, hole in the wall - my guess is you should look to the image to confirm the door. there are many ideas for this, this is mine.
I have looked at the image, I do not think that is a door, IMO it looks more like a window with bars. I think it is a combination of two objects, the shape resembles the old De Young window high up the tower, and the bars could be represented by the police academy, Alcatraz, Justices and so on. The LOH entry way IMO does not look anything like the object in the illustration, but that's just me. I am not knocking your idea, I do think that area has a lot of potential, but where I am at there is much evidence that points to GGP.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
I have looked at the image, I do not think that is a door, IMO it looks more like a window with bars.
of course the verse does not say "At stone wall's window...
Scrappy929
Unknown:
I have looked at the image, I do not think that is a door, IMO it looks more like a window with bars. I think it is a combination of two objects, the shape resembles the old De Young window high up the tower, and the bars could be represented by the police academy, Alcatraz, Justices and so on. The LOH entry way IMO does not look anything like the object in the illustration, but that's just me. I am not knocking your idea, I do think that area has a lot of potential, but where I am at there is much evidence that points to GGP.
What you have to remember is that there are a lot of references in the image you can match to so many different things. Having lived near SF for 17 years and a visitor to GGP hundreds of times, there are arched doorways and windows everywhere. You are correct that it looks like the De Young window.
Also keep in mind we may not necessarily be looking for a door. Other meanings of door: doorway, portal, opening, entrance, entry, exit... The LoH image mf has presented is dead on if you stood directly in front of the LoH, turned and then looked into the courtyard. That archway is a "portal" into the courtyard where the columns sit further back, using depth perception to bring two images into one. Stone might not necessarily mean natural stone. Exhibit A: the Chicago solve... Where M & B are set in stone. Stone in that case was concrete.
I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to offer a different perspective as to what stone & door could mean . From what we know from the solves, you will get that "a-ha" moment when you see it.
stone wall's door...
concrete entrance
concrete portal
concrete door...
Keep up the hunt! You never know when some obscure clue may be important.
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
No we are not
running
north, Highway 1 runs north but first across the golden gate bridge, as you look out from the legion of honor this is the view directly in front of the arched barred gate.
we are at the legion of honor.
These are all things we see around us without moving.
Highway 1/Golden Gate Bridges.
Angel Island
Sutro Tower
San Francisco University and San Francisco Law School
The Legion of honor
El Cid Statue (giant pole)
Joan of Arc.
Fort Point
The Fountain
The seaman's monument
the parking lot
Golf balls
Just out of sight
the windows with the sleeve design
the coast that matches the left arm
Golden Gate Park
Does that make sense?
Yes it does. I think you’re spot on it. So then what we are looking for is the “ Giant step to the place the casque is kept”. I have been trying to work out the Giant step. So far I have a “Mark Twain” which is two fathoms or 12 feet. I also have a San Francisco Giants step which would be 90 feet which is the distance to get to each base.
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
No we are not running north, Highway 1 runs north but first across the golden gate bridge, as you look out from the legion of honor this is the view directly in front of the arched barred gate.
we are at the legion of honor.
These are all things we see around us without moving.
Highway 1/Golden Gate Bridges.
Angel Island
Sutro Tower
San Francisco University and San Francisco Law School
The Legion of honor
El Cid Statue (giant pole)
Joan of Arc.
Fort Point
The Fountain
The seaman's monument
the parking lot
Golf balls
Just out of sight
the windows with the sleeve design
the coast that matches the left arm
Golden Gate Park
Does that make sense?
Yes it does. I think you’re spot on it. So then what we are looking for is the “ Giant step to the place the casque is kept”. I have been trying to work out the Giant step. So far I have a “Mark Twain” which is two fathoms or 12 feet. I also have a San Francisco Giants step which would be 90 feet which is the distance to get to each base.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Yes, but how does a dragon dedicated in 2004 have anything to do with this puzzle?
Not a damn thing. A dragon in Philadelphia is as relevant to the hunt in San Francisco as Montreal, Wisconsin is to the hunt in Canada. Consider the source, and draw your own conclusions.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
of course the verse does not say "At stone wall's window...
Of course it does not say window, I am not using the object in the rock as a door...
Goonie68
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
Not a damn thing. A dragon in Philadelphia is as relevant to the hunt in San Francisco as Montreal, Wisconsin is to the hunt in Canada. Consider the source, and draw your own conclusions.
Thanks for clearing that up
starke49
So MF I see where you are going on this and it does intrigue me as I explained on FB I have looked at this site virtually at least 20 times. I have also visited it in person but before my interest in the The Secret. Could I pick your brain a bit here, for where you are at with this?
1- Seeing fountain from aerial view I thought it resembled something pearl in painting but could not figure why it was different. So you feel the head is represented also, I can now see this?
2- The blob space often occurred to me as a possible match for the bay but I thought it was a stretch with the poor definition, but I did think the door and stone reference could be the bridge I like the illustrations you used for your thinking. do you think the door could also reference the Golden Gate inlet to the Bay?
3- I cannot quite see the Joan of Arc or the horse clearly in the picture so I am skeptical, do the copies posted here and FB not do your copies justice?
4- On your posts you show the crossed arms and Lincoln JFK profile, not getting your connection here?
5- I can buy into the Angel Island rose view, but why the table as the pool, is that old picture at the LOH?
6- How long have you been looking at this area, I take it since you shared this, your digs or location have been exhausted here?
I want to thank you for putting this out there as I feel you truly deserve to find the treasure or prove where it was, as your efforts have been both studious and relentless. So many have such huge egos but are not willing to be open minded to new, unique or more exact solutions and feel they have all the answers, only to get upset when their theories are shot down. That is why I post so many different areas and polls relating to areas on FB, I want to just throw it out there and see if more experienced sleuths can either shut it down or run with it. And yes I do get a bit resentful sometimes when a new theory is destroyed, but I do like this one and hope it brings the end game on sooner!
Rviewer1
I have another thought on the giant step. Since El Cid is on a horse, I started looking at stride length. That seemed to depend on the speed of the horse. From acceleration to peak speed and then slow down the average stride is about 6.1 meters.
Scrappy929
Laocoön and His Sons
Lincoln Park Legion of Honor: Near the Joan of Arc, on the left side of the building, and framed by trees, is a marble statue of Laocoön and His Sons
Images courtesy of:
hxxp://ronhenggeler.com/Newsletters/2016/5.8/Newsletter.html
maltedfalcon
Rviewer1 wrote::
I have another thought on the giant step. Since El Cid is on a horse, I started looking at stride length. That seemed to depend on the speed of the horse. From acceleration to peak speed and then slow down the average stride is about 6.1 meters.
does it matter that el cid and his horse are giant sized?
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
does it matter that el cid and his horse are giant sized?
Yes the El CId horse looks big but if you put a real horse up there, wouldn’t the real horse be about the same size.
Scrappy929
Thanks for the info GG!
I captured the images that you posted pertaining to verse 7. Shortly thereafter, I asked my wife to text her friend, who is Japanese, and asked if she could translate. I gave no information as to where this came from other than a book and made no mention of what is was for. Here is her response to part of it:
I sent this to mf and he immediately stated that would make sense for the Golden Gate Bridge fog horns.
My wife's friend only sent the above clue response. I asked if she could translate more, and she hasn't gotten back to me as of yet. Could you possibly ask the owner of the book if what I shared would make any sense in that section of the Japanese verse?
Spiritr
I thought this thread was about image 1, why am I seeing things from Verse 7 here?
Scrappy929
Spiritr wrote::
I thought this thread was about image 1, why am I seeing things from Verse 7 here?
GG posted it here... I replied here. I do believe that from time to time you will see things cross from the image thread to the corresponding verse thread. Don't see the problem with a couple of posts here and there.
Scrappy929
Goldengate wrote::
Hi Scrappy,
That's interesting and certainly foghorns could be an explanation. I personally love the sound of them and think they're somewhat soothing, but MF is right in that if you are super close the sound can be ear-splitting. A phenomenon on the other hand -- I don't know if I'd describe foghorns in that category and I have zero idea what it could mean.
What makes me curious is: "But there are sounds that we human ears can not hear.
If you do not use a special machine, there are sounds that you can not hear."
Is there machine anyone can think of to to hear special sounds from the sky? Radio signals? Radio tower? Satellite dish?
Certainly worth some research!
I actually broke that down into 2 separate functions
Odd phenomenon --> Fog
A sound that hurts the persons ears --> Horn
I am actually heading to San Francisco tomorrow morning at 0 dark 30, makes the drive an easy 2-2.5 hours as opposed to 4-4.5 hours stuck at the tolls at the Bay Bridge! lol! Gonna just do some exploration at LoH and the SFPL.
Scrappy929
Goldengate wrote::
Awesome!
Good luck -- and huge props for hitting up the library. Google will only get you so far... there's gold in them thar stacks!
Thanks! You are oh so correct. I get this eerie feeling though, I will be following in mf's footsteps from years past! lol! I have no new information that is taking me there, only that I have never been to LoH. Get to go visit and admire plus have a little exploration fun as well. Maybe get there early enough to here, Sounds from the sky Near ace is high!?
Rviewer1
Hey Scrappy,
Just be careful if you go visit that Chinese cemetery plot that you referenced. One of my golf shots landed in there and I had to take a one stroke penalty for an unplayable lie.
Have fun!
Choice
In the painting the dragon is the stonewall. So stonewall's door= Dragon's Gate
Spiritr
Anyone in the Bay Area have the actual 1982 book ? I really want to take a look at it
Scrappy929
Spiritr wrote::
Anyone in the Bay Area have the actual 1982 book ? I really want to take a look at it
Working on it. I did some research and there a number of libraries across the country that have the original, based upon the ISBN 0553014080. A lot of them are university libraries. I have reached out to a couple to see if they would be willing to sell.
Spiritr
there's only 1 in California , Library of UCR
other than that....it's all gone
there's one on Ebay right now, $450.00
Scrappy929
I'd have to say I was quite disappointed to learn that the Betsy Ross Memorial flagpole, giant pole giant step, at LoH had been removed well before BP would have visited. Common theme among us it seems. Since we've learned that the Japanese version is stating that the high posts of three are wooden, I am starting to look back at the wharf and to once again explore this area.
If you rotate a map of SF in such a way as to place the wharf area on the left and trace the outline of the shore, it is a striking match to her right elbow (left as viewed from original image).
One might contend that we should consider the Gh as our "M & B". This would be our starting point, a visual reference point.
"At" stone wall's door, The air smells sweet. The translation said to not so much consider the term sweet as literally, but maybe figuratively. I was in SF at Ghirardelli Square about a month ago and I can tell you, the air does not smell sweet, especially not in the sense of sweet as in chocolate.
From here we can see high posts of three. Two historic ships sit on Hyde Street Pier with high posts of three, the Balclutha & the C.A. Thayer. Keep in mind though that the Balclutha was moored at Pier 41 from 1955 to 1988 and was then moved to it's current location. Can we see pier 41 from Ghirardelli Square area? I would say it would have been a stretch to see the high posts of three from there. C.A. Thayer has been at it's current location since 1963 so it would have been there around the time BP visited.
I do like the possible reference to fog horns and radio tower as sounds from the sky.
Obviously, there is more to be done from here. And so it continues...
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
I'd have to say I was quite disappointed to learn that the Betsy Ross Memorial flagpole, giant pole giant step, at LoH had been removed well before BP would have visited. Common theme among us it seems. Since we've learned that the Japanese version is stating that the high posts of three are wooden, I am starting to look back at the wharf and to once again explore this area.
If you rotate a map of SF in such a way as to place the wharf area on the left and trace the outline of the shore, it is a striking match to her right elbow (left as viewed from original image).
One might contend that we should consider the Gh as our "M & B". This would be our starting point, a visual reference point.
"At" stone wall's door, The air smells sweet. The translation said to not so much consider the term sweet as literally, but maybe figuratively. I was in SF at Ghirardelli Square about a month ago and I can tell you, the air does not smell sweet, especially not in the sense of sweet as in chocolate.
From here we can see high posts of three. Two historic ships sit on Hyde Street Pier with high posts of three, the Balclutha & the C.A. Thayer. Keep in mind though that the Balclutha was moored at Pier 41 from 1955 to 1988 and was then moved to it's current location. Can we see pier 41 from Ghirardelli Square area? I would say it would have been a stretch to see the high posts of three from there. C.A. Thayer has been at it's current location since 1963 so it would have been there around the time BP visited.
I do like the possible reference to fog horns and radio tower as sounds from the sky.
Obviously, there is more to be done from here. And so it continues...
Counter clockwise running grandfather clock map:
hxxp://tinypic.com/r/dzcyt3/9
https://tinyurl.com/yd5ryyp3
#8 Alioto's #9 Fisherman's Grotto
#'s refer to the original late 1800's stall numbers (stands) where fishermen sold their catch.
https://tinyurl.com/yaymq8pf
#7 Tarantino's (now Guardino's)
Choice
https://i.imgur.com/sRwoQz7.jpg
Dove in Italian is Colombo. Columbus is Latin version of the name.
Observatory refers to the Galileo high's (G-h) observatory on the roof. May explain moons of Jupiter.
https://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfp ... B-0289.jpg
Fountain is the round fountain of mermaids seated in Yin-Yang in Ghirardelli square.
One of the mermaids is cradling a baby mermaid. Her arm position is similar to the cradling clutched arms of the lady in the painting.
https://twitter.com/privatemidwife/stat ... 4387078145
Choice
Open Claw of the dragon resembles Aquatic Cove across the street from Ghirardelli square.
Closed claw looks like a heart-shaped box of chocolate with a blue circle in one corner, similar to the fountain in the square.
https://imgur.com/a/1ecQuaF
If any of this has already been covered please accept my apologies. New to this board.
Spiritr
I like how the A=5 and 9=6
not attractive, not enough draw, no tourist will like this route, and that....observatory? My 9th and 10th grade was in Galileo, and I just can't recall this observatory building...
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
:ad)
I like how the A=5 and 9=6
not attractive, not enough draw, no tourist will like this route, and that....observatory? My 9th and 10th grade was in Galileo, and I just can't recall this observatory building...
Similar to the clock tower at Ghirardelli square, old Roman numeral clock faces have the digits on the bottom half of the clock upside down so to be oriented to the center of the clock (from POV or perspective of the center). Here's a sample clock face:
https://tinyurl.com/ybqynd9o
Galileo high (G-h) Observatory From street view:
https://tinyurl.com/y9cgwwt9
Fisherman's wharf is as touristy as it gets. Same with Ghirardelli. There's a reference to Ghirardelli in the painting in form of practically spelling the name out.
Woman's eyes are cat-like. Also head of the dragon is a lion's head, similar to my avatar. Lions is the Galileo's football team with the stadium right behind Ghirardelli so from there the sign on the roof reads backward.
Spiritr
LOL, same here
and ironically I got kicked out from Gal(the most ghetto school of all time), and they placed me in Lincoln(2nd best school in the city)
which completely changed my life.
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
I actually broke that down into 2 separate functions
Odd phenomenon --> Fog
A sound that hurts the persons ears --> Horn
I am actually heading to San Francisco tomorrow morning at 0 dark 30, makes the drive an easy 2-2.5 hours as opposed to 4-4.5 hours stuck at the tolls at the Bay Bridge! lol! Gonna just do some exploration at LoH and the SFPL.
Eventhough foghorn makes sense for a coastal city, the obvious sound maker is sitting on the table. Unlike a typical alarm-clock that has two bells and one hammer in the middle, this clock has only one bell. Look closely to the triangular shadow it casts. It tells us what the clock represents; A clock tower with pyramid style top, similar to the one in Ghirardelli square. Also time on the clock is 6. So it's chiming.
Goonie68
Work on image pairing to GGP
Khalil Gibran War
Rviewer1
Can anyone give me a link to a descent resolution of image 1. Thanks.
Choice
Hey Goonie, the rock formation referred to as JFK to me it looks like combination of 3 things:
1) On page 11 of the book where the writer describes Columbus-like journey to new found land, he describes him as "Folleto" (misspelled) out of Genoa. I'm not Italian nor comprehend Italian but folletto with two T's mean elf, gnome. I used Google translator. There's also a drawing of this elf that looks similar to the rock formation.
2) Rock formation is the map of Tiburon/Belvedere. Angel island (the rose) is part of Tiburon. Tiburon translates to shark in Spanish. Shark is also present in painting.
3) Turned sideways it looks like a goat. Telegraph hill, where statue of Columbus stands was often called goat hill by San Francisco old-timers.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Hey Goonie, the rock formation referred to as JFK to me it looks like combination
of
3 things:
1) On page 11
of
the book where the writer describes Columbus-like journey to new found land, he describes him as "Folleto" (misspelled) out
of
Genoa.
I
'm not Italian nor comprehend Italian but folletto with two T's mean elf, gnome.
I
used Google translator. There's also a drawing
of
this elf that looks similar to the rock formation.
2) Rock formation is the map
of
Tiburon/Belvedere. Angel island (the rose) is part
of
Tiburon. Tiburon translates to shark in Spanish. Shark is also present in painting.
3) Turned sideways it looks like a goat. Telegraph hill, where statue
of
Columbus stands was often called goat hill by San Francisco old-timers.
I
think some
of
the images represent several things in one object, it all depends on how you are using the verse
i
guess?
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Hey Goonie, the rock formation referred to as JFK to me it looks like combination of 3 things:
1) On page 11 of the book where the writer describes Columbus-like journey to new found land, he describes him as "Folleto" (misspelled) out of Genoa. I'm not Italian nor comprehend Italian but folletto with two T's mean elf, gnome. I used Google translator. There's also a drawing of this elf that looks similar to the rock formation.
2) Rock formation is the map of Tiburon/Belvedere. Angel island (the rose) is part of Tiburon. Tiburon translates to shark in Spanish. Shark is also present in painting.
3) Turned sideways it looks like a goat. Telegraph hill, where statue of Columbus stands was often called goat hill by San Francisco old-timers.
I think some of the images represent several things in one object, it all depends on how you are using the verse i guess?
Choice
I totally agree. It might even look like the infamous one-eyed willy.
Choice
I
totally agree. It might even look like the infamous one-eyed willy.
drunknerds
I
've made some high posts in this very thread.
Could those be the posts BP was referring to?
drunknerds
I've made some high posts in this very thread.
Could those be the posts BP was referring to?
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
Can anyone give me a link to a descent resolution
of
image 1. Thanks.
https://
i
.imgur.com/a65pbLH.jpg
click on it to expand.
This is the highest res. image
I
have. Starting to pixelate
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
Can anyone give me a link to a descent resolution of image 1. Thanks.
https://i.imgur.com/a65pbLH.jpg
click on it to expand.
This is the highest res. image I have. Starting to pixelate
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
https://i.imgur.com/a65pbLH.jpg
click on it to expand.
This is the highest res. image I have. Starting to pixelate
Thank you Choice!
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
https://
i
.imgur.com/a65pbLH.jpg
click on it to expand.
This is the highest res. image
I
have. Starting to pixelate
Thank you Choice!
Choice
A few observations, Rose table:
Plight of Chinese immigrants after Chinese exclusion act
• Holding facility at Angel island immigration station (north east of island)
• Two possible entry points to san Francisco: Hyde st Pier or port of San Francisco
• Both locations have clock towers nearby. Ghirardelli tower matches the clock shadow.
• The rose stem spiral indicates spinning motion clockwise.
• That would make table a turn table turning counter clockwise.
• Cable car/lamp post table leg.
• Table may represent cable car turn-around present at both locations.
• Nose of dragon at Lombard and Hyde, Hyde st turn around, Alcatraz and Angel island immigration station line up
• Both Hyde st and Columbus st (when extended) meet at corner of Aquatic park in front of Ghirardelli square where cable car turn around is.
Green leaf next to spiral is Golden gate park or Presidio
Location:
https://tinyurl.com/ya7zw85r
Choice
A few observations, Rose table:
Plight
of
Chinese immigrants after Chinese exclusion act
• Holding facility at Angel island immigration station (north east
of
island)
• Two possible entry points to san Francisco: Hyde st Pier or port
of
San Francisco
• Both locations have clock towers nearby. Ghirardelli tower matches the clock shadow.
• The rose stem spiral indicates spinning motion clockwise.
• That would make table a turn table turning counter clockwise.
• Cable car/lamp post table leg.
• Table may represent cable car turn-around present at both locations.
• Nose
of
dragon at Lombard and Hyde, Hyde st turn around, Alcatraz and Angel island immigration station line up
• Both Hyde st and Columbus st (when extended) meet at corner
of
Aquatic park in front
of
Ghirardelli square where cable car turn around is.
Green leaf next to spiral is Golden gate park or Presidio
Location:
https://tinyurl.com/ya7zw85r
Choice
Blue Genie Lamp
courtesy of:
https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/313-a ... ncisco-bay
Choice
Blue Genie Lamp
courtesy
of
:
https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/313-a ... ncisco-bay
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
• The rose stem spiral indicates spinning motion clockwise.
• That would make table a turn table turning counter clockwise.
Please elaborate
Scrappy929
Possible solution to the symbols:
Most know that the Roman numerals on a clock do not face the correct direction. 5 & 6 o'clock appear upside down on a clock. The hand on Roman clocks stayed pointing up while the face rotated in a CCW direction. In our image, we can see the Roman numerals 5 & 6 upside down.
I
had an epiphany around 1:30am this morning... what if the 3 symbols along the right side were meant to be combined as 1 symbol. The first symbol resembling an A has a straight line underneath, and the second symbol has a straight line on top and underneath, same with the third symbol. These straight lines are what brought me to combine all three.
I
used Photoshop to enhance image 1 to be more clear so
I
could see the shapes
of
the symbols better.
I
drew these images on top
of
each other on a piece
of
paper and began to search if
I
could find something on a well know clock tower in the area that would match. And
I
did... The Ghirardelli Clock Tower. The images from image 1 here are not the high res
I
have.
I
will upload those a bit later.
I
then looked at the symbols on the left side
of
the image to match those.
I
noticed that on the clock tower, 2 opposing sides come to a point at the peak, and the 2 other opposing sides do not quite meet at the peek. If you look at a top down view
of
the Ghirardelli Clock Tower, it resembles an X as we see below. Not saying BP would have used a top down aerial photo for this, but you can draw the shapes and infer the same thing.
The next shape down from the X, is the circular shape. It closely resembles decor around the base
of
the pyramid on top
of
the tower and at the very top on the sides where the peeks do not meet.
The lowest symbol on the left side looks as though it is illustrating the fact that the adjacent sides are not coming to a point. Image displays symbols as the bases aligning together with the right side up triangle being the clock tower side that does not meet at the peek, and the inverted triangle being the side that meets. Images below don't quite align, but you get the point.
I
have a really good view
of
what the lower center symbol looks like, but have not made a match.
If you read the symbols from top down...
Gh --> Ghiradelli
Upside down roman numerals --> Clock
Lower left & right symbols --> Tower
Ghirardelli Clock Tower.
What does all
of
this mean? Start at the clock tower? Just my best interpretation
of
the symbols.
I
believe they have something to do with solving the puzzle.
Scrappy929
Possible solution to the symbols:
Most know that the Roman numerals on a clock do not face the correct direction. 5 & 6 o'clock appear upside down on a clock. The hand on Roman clocks stayed pointing up while the face rotated in a CCW direction. In our image, we can see the Roman numerals 5 & 6 upside down.
I had an epiphany around 1:30am this morning... what if the 3 symbols along the right side were meant to be combined as 1 symbol. The first symbol resembling an A has a straight line underneath, and the second symbol has a straight line on top and underneath, same with the third symbol. These straight lines are what brought me to combine all three. I used Photoshop to enhance image 1 to be more clear so I could see the shapes of the symbols better. I drew these images on top of each other on a piece of paper and began to search if I could find something on a well know clock tower in the area that would match. And I did... The Ghirardelli Clock Tower. The images from image 1 here are not the high res I have. I will upload those a bit later.
I then looked at the symbols on the left side of the image to match those. I noticed that on the clock tower, 2 opposing sides come to a point at the peak, and the 2 other opposing sides do not quite meet at the peek. If you look at a top down view of the Ghirardelli Clock Tower, it resembles an X as we see below. Not saying BP would have used a top down aerial photo for this, but you can draw the shapes and infer the same thing.
The next shape down from the X, is the circular shape. It closely resembles decor around the base of the pyramid on top of the tower and at the very top on the sides where the peeks do not meet.
The lowest symbol on the left side looks as though it is illustrating the fact that the adjacent sides are not coming to a point. Image displays symbols as the bases aligning together with the right side up triangle being the clock tower side that does not meet at the peek, and the inverted triangle being the side that meets. Images below don't quite align, but you get the point.
I have a really good view of what the lower center symbol looks like, but have not made a match.
If you read the symbols from top down...
Gh --> Ghiradelli
Upside down roman numerals --> Clock
Lower left & right symbols --> Tower
Ghirardelli Clock Tower.
What does all of this mean? Start at the clock tower? Just my best interpretation of the symbols. I believe they have something to do with solving the puzzle.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Please elaborate
He is saying that the spiral of the rose stem shows the direction that the table top would be spinning if it were a turntable.
indicating the turntable at the beach st/hyde st intersection
but I'm pretty sure I have seen them spin in both directions.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
Please elaborate
He is saying that the spiral
of
the rose stem shows the direction that the table top would be spinning if it were a turntable.
indicating the turntable at the beach st/hyde st intersection
but
I
'm pretty sure
I
have seen them spin in both directions.
bbi
Hi,
I
'd like to just add to the turntable part.
I
've had several scans from 3 different original copies
of
the book. They all seem to have their own printing differences, but there is a faint arrow at the end
of
the rose stem curl. Which would lead one to interpret as an action such as "Turn".
As the curl stem is sitting on top
of
the table with the cablecar below it could be used to concatenate the three images into "Cable Car" + "Turn" + "Table". Likewise with the clock "Cable Car" + "Time" + "Table"
Heres a close up from the original scan used in the 2015 re-print. If you look at the end
of
the curl you should see a darker angle shape that forms the arrow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5e6J ... NmSTTYhvg0
Thanks,
bbi
Hi,
I'd like to just add to the turntable part. I've had several scans from 3 different original copies of the book. They all seem to have their own printing differences, but there is a faint arrow at the end of the rose stem curl. Which would lead one to interpret as an action such as "Turn".
As the curl stem is sitting on top of the table with the cablecar below it could be used to concatenate the three images into "Cable Car" + "Turn" + "Table". Likewise with the clock "Cable Car" + "Time" + "Table"
Heres a close up from the original scan used in the 2015 re-print. If you look at the end of the curl you should see a darker angle shape that forms the arrow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5e6J ... NmSTTYhvg0
Thanks,
maltedfalcon
bbi wrote::
Hi,
I
'd like to just add to the turntable part.
I
've had several scans from 3 different original copies
of
the book. They all seem to have their own printing differences, but there is a faint arrow at the end
of
the rose stem curl. Which would lead one to interpret as an action such as "Turn".
As the curl stem is sitting on top
of
the table with the cablecar below it could be used to concatenate the three images into "Cable Car" + "Turn" + "Table". Likewise with the clock "Cable Car" + "Time" + "Table"
Heres a close up from the original scan used in the 2015 re-print. If you look at the end
of
the curl you should see a darker angle shape that forms the arrow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5e6J ... NmSTTYhvg0
Thanks,
I
always translated that as under the rose.
maltedfalcon
bbi wrote::
Hi,
I'd like to just add to the turntable part. I've had several scans from 3 different original copies of the book. They all seem to have their own printing differences, but there is a faint arrow at the end of the rose stem curl. Which would lead one to interpret as an action such as "Turn".
As the curl stem is sitting on top of the table with the cablecar below it could be used to concatenate the three images into "Cable Car" + "Turn" + "Table". Likewise with the clock "Cable Car" + "Time" + "Table"
Heres a close up from the original scan used in the 2015 re-print. If you look at the end of the curl you should see a darker angle shape that forms the arrow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5e6J ... NmSTTYhvg0
Thanks,
I always translated that as under the rose.
Choice
The spiral indicates the spinning motion. In case
of
cable car turn-around it doesn't matter. It can go either way. However, in case
of
the clock it points to my counter clock-wise running clock explained prior.
Choice
The spiral indicates the spinning motion. In case of cable car turn-around it doesn't matter. It can go either way. However, in case of the clock it points to my counter clock-wise running clock explained prior.
bbi
Choice wrote::
The spiral indicates the spinning motion. In case
of
cable car turn-around it doesn't matter. It can go either way. However, in case
of
the clock it points to my counter clock-wise running clock explained prior.
Exactly,
I
just wanted to back up your theory
of
the spiral indicating an action/motion
i
.e. with a clearer image you can see the arrow at the end
of
the spiral, which indicates some form
of
movement/direction. Current scans/images available just show the spiral which is largely being linked to a physical object in GGP (The end
of
a hand-rail).
bbi
Choice wrote::
The spiral indicates the spinning motion. In case of cable car turn-around it doesn't matter. It can go either way. However, in case of the clock it points to my counter clock-wise running clock explained prior.
Exactly, I just wanted to back up your theory of the spiral indicating an action/motion i.e. with a clearer image you can see the arrow at the end of the spiral, which indicates some form of movement/direction. Current scans/images available just show the spiral which is largely being linked to a physical object in GGP (The end of a hand-rail).
Choice
More references to Ghirardelli and Angel island:
• Ellis is written in cursive
• Angel Island is often referred to as west-coast’s Ellis Island.
• Also can be decoded as G-Delli
bbi
Possible map of the area the reader needs to be in:
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
What does all of this mean? Start at the clock tower? Just my best interpretation of the symbols. I believe they have something to do with solving the puzzle.
I have the starting point at Chinatown's Dragon’s Gate:
• If the puzzle is about the plight of Chinese then Chinatown makes sense.
• “At stone wall's door The air smells sweet; in the painting, the dragon IS the stonewall. Perhaps reference to the great wall of china. So simple word substitution and you get dragon’s door, dragon’s gate.
• The air smells sweet with fortune cookies being baked
• Nearby there’s a fortune cookie factory at Jackson St. (Stonewall Jackson reference too far fetched)
• Dragon’s gate looks similar in design to her robe pattern.
• There are two fish on top of the gate. There’re two puddles of water on her shoulders.
• Curled-up fish present in the middle of dragon, similar to the gate.
bbi
bbi wrote::
Hi,
I'd like to just add to the turntable part. I've had several scans from 3 different original copies of the book. They all seem to have their own printing differences, but there is a faint arrow at the end of the rose stem curl. Which would lead one to interpret as an action such as "Turn".
As the curl stem is sitting on top of the table with the cablecar below it could be used to concatenate the three images into "Cable Car" + "Turn" + "Table". Likewise with the clock "Cable Car" + "Time" + "Table"
Heres a close up from the original scan used in the 2015 re-print. If you look at the end of the curl you should see a darker angle shape that forms the arrow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5e6J ... NmSTTYhvg0
Thanks,
Not sure if the link above is working. This is the image:
Choice
• A few blocks north of the Dragon's gate is Broadway at Columbus. Look south and you have your Ace.
https://tinyurl.com/yawcru2q
• Verse will tell you where to go next; Running ‘north, but first across’, is practically the definition of diagonally. i.e. hypotenuse in a right-angle triangle.
• 'In jewel's direction'; the jewel was (is?) in NYC so jewel’s direction is east.
• 'Is an object of Twain's attention'; east is Telegraph hill, Mark Twain literally translates to 12 feet. Attention = standing straight. On Telegraph hill, statue of Columbus stands at 12’ tall.
• So another word substitution: Running diagonally is Columbus.
• Drive to the end of Columbus and you are at Fisherman’s Wharf.
Scrappy929
Here are the clearer symbols from image 1 with their comparison.
Here is the bottom center symbol. Hand drawn should be of similar shape.
bbi
Scrappy929 wrote::
Here are the clearer symbols from image 1 with their comparison.
Hi Scrappy929,
I'd like to help you out a little, I see the images for the icons you upload appear a little pixelated. Please feel free to grab this scan (below). Its one of 3 versions I have from 3 different original sources of the book. This particular one was taken from a mint condition copy of the book held at a place in Liverpool (I was over there recently on vacation and heard they had a copy of the book and I had them scan all the images for me). As you will see, and I have noticed, this one has a red blemish and other subtle differences in various places to other original scans. This may be due to print inconsistencies and even the paper it was printed on having some issue. But from what I've seen of original copies of the book, there are subtle differences within the actual printed book and not just bad scans. Anyway, hope the image below helps you clarify your icon matching
Scrappy929
That looks like the one that I used. I have others that are worse. The pixelation is due to zooming in plus sharpening to remove blur. The bottom center symbol pixelation does really help to define the shape.
Thank you though!
Choice
bbi wrote::
What is the red spot on the right side of A?
Here is a better link to bbi's pic:
https://i.imgur.com/0X7gEbd.jpg
bbi
bbi wrote::
Hi Scrappy929,
I'd like to help you out a little, I see the images for the icons you upload appear a little pixelated. Please feel free to grab this scan (below). Its one of 3 versions I have from 3 different original sources of the book. This particular one was taken from a mint condition copy of the book held at a place in Liverpool (I was over there recently on vacation and heard they had a copy of the book and I had them scan all the images for me). As you will see, and I have noticed, this one has a red blemish and other subtle differences in various places to other original scans. This may be due to print inconsistencies and even the paper it was printed on having some issue. But from what I've seen of original copies of the book, there are subtle differences within the actual printed book and not just bad scans. Anyway, hope the image below helps you clarify your icon matching
https://imgur.com/0X7gEbd
bbi
Choice wrote::
What is the red spot on the right side of A?
Thats what I was saying. Every original version of the image I've seen so far all have different blemishes here and there. That red spot, I have no idea. Could have been done during printing if the paper had some kind of substance on it or it could have been done after, but it didn't bleach through to the other side of the page so it leads me to think it was during the print process. But to be honest I really don't know. Thats why its quite a dangerous thing to do when people start zooming in too much into these scans etc. as each original book, each scan all reveal different things in the world of pareidolia
Choice
bbi wrote::
What is the red spot on the right side of A?
Sorry, I was excited to view the picture I didn't completely read the text. I don't see the importance of high resolution picture either unless you need to frame one for your man-cave. I find my post-card size picture printed from wiki site quite adequate. Even-though that picture also has some anomalies i.e. 2 red dots over the moons that could look like a couple of stars.
Scrappy929
Well, might be important when you are trying to see tiny symbols. Difference between mine and the one he sent is a big difference when looking at the bottom center symbol. For most everything else, maybe not so much needed. Thanks again bbi.
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
Well, might be important when you are trying to see tiny symbols. Difference between mine and the one he sent is a big difference when looking at the bottom center symbol. For most everything else, maybe not so much needed. Thanks again bbi.
Instead of trying to zoom in by high resolution scanner that digitally alters pixels to estimate and predict the best result according to the software coder, I print a standard resolution picture and zoom in with a X5 magnifying glass. You'd be amazed how well it would work. It's similar to digital zoom vs optical zoom. Must have a good color laser printer. Ink jets smear and bleed pixels into each other.
Choice
Choice wrote::
• A few blocks north of the Dragon's gate is Broadway at Columbus. Look south and you have your Ace.
https://tinyurl.com/yawcru2q
• Verse will tell you where to go next; Running ‘north, but first across’, is practically the definition of diagonally. i.e. hypotenuse in a right-angle triangle.
• 'In jewel's direction'; the jewel was (is?) in NYC so jewel’s direction is east.
• 'Is an object of Twain's attention'; east is Telegraph hill, Mark Twain literally translates to 12 feet. Attention = standing straight. On Telegraph hill, statue of Columbus stands at 12’ tall.
• So another word substitution: Running diagonally is Columbus.
• Drive to the end of Columbus and you are at Fisherman’s Wharf.
A few more references to Columbus and Telegraph Hill:
• Similar shoulder pads on Columbus, elf and woman. I see no other obvious reason for her robe to have protruding shoulder-pads.
• A line of parrots sitting on top of the tower, closest one peering inside. Reference to wild parrots of Telegraph Hill, often suggested as an alternative solve to sounds from sky.
strike13
Choice wrote::
A few more references to Columbus and Telegraph Hill:
• Similar shoulder pads on Columbus, elf and woman. I see no other obvious reason for her robe to have protruding shoulder-pads.
• A line of parrots sitting on top of the tower, closest one peering inside. Reference to wild parrots of Telegraph Hill, often suggested as an alternative solve to sounds from sky.
To me, that dome is the Hatch Shell in Boston, on the esplanade. Esp w the water and nordic rowers
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
• A line of parrots sitting on top of the tower, closest one peering inside. Reference to wild parrots of Telegraph Hill, often suggested as an alternative solve to sounds from the sky.
I'm having a hard time seeing any parrots there.
From the verse 7 thread:
If we take the Japanese translation hint to heart on this, and it is so specific I have a hard time not doing so, the sound from the sky is something that requires a device in order for human ears to hear (i.e. a radio). That doesn't fit as well into the foghorn, loudpeaker, or bird theories.
You would also need a device for a telephone or telegraph but those are sounds from a wire, not sounds from the sky. A radio broadcast is literally a sound from the sky.
Spiritr
try going there around 5/6am, you'll hear the parrots, just watch out for the coyotes, and after October, they will be gone, and will come back around May/June
Choice
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I'm having a hard time seeing any parrots there.
If you locate the beaks in the yellow dotted outline in the pic. the rest will fall in place.
My suggestion for sounds from sky is the Ghirardelli square clock tower chiming since time on the clock is 6 o'clock.
Spiritr
Goldengate wrote::
I really don't think there's a seasonal element to this treasure hunt. If someone came to look for the casque off-season, they'd just be out of luck because of a flock of birds and that just doesn't seem to jive.
I love "Raiders of the Lost Arc" as much as the next schmuck, but speaking only for myself, I don't think there's a time-of-year / time-of-day sensitive "well of souls" element to this hunt.
the guy was saying he can't see the parrots and I was just providing him with what I know, that's all, no one said anything about the treasure being seasonal.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
the guy was saying he can't see the parrots and I was just providing him with what I know, that's all, no one said anything about the treasure being seasonal.
I think he meant he can't see it in the painting NOT in the Pioneer Park.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
there's no parrots in Pioneer Park, east of Napier Lane is the only place where they hang out.
They hang around between Filbert steps and Greenwich steps. Pioneer park is a natural habitat for them.
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
If you locate the beaks in the yellow dotted outline in the pic. the rest will fall in place.
My suggestion for sounds from sky is the Ghirardelli square clock tower chiming since time on the clock is 6 o'clock.
I see what you are calling "beaks" in the image. I am having a hard time interpreting them as such. Also, am I missing a visual in the image that supports that rock drawing as representing telegraph hill or is that juat supposition?
Also, the Japanese hint strongly .suggests the sound from the sky is going to be something a human needs a special device to hear with their ears. This seems to lead us away from fog horns, birds, clock towers and toward radio waves.
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
I think he meant he can't see it in the painting NOT in the Pioneer Park.
Correct. I'm not doubting there are birds in every park in SF.
I am having a hard time visualizing that blobsquatch as parrot beaks based on my observations of image 1.
Choice
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I see what you are calling "beaks" in the image. I am having a hard time interpreting them as such. Also, am I missing a visual in the image that supports that rock drawing as representing telegraph hill or is that juat supposition?
Also, the Japanese hint strongly .suggests the sound from the sky is going to be something a human needs a special device to hear with their ears. This seems to lead us away from fog horns, birds, clock towers and toward radio waves.
Shoulder pads on her robe is a hint to Columbus statue that sits on T.H., also the tower that the 'parrot' sits on has the vertical stripes like Coit tower on T.H.
I wouldn't put much weight on what comes out of Japanese version of the book. There's a great chance of something getting lost in translation. Also they might've put a spin on the puzzles to attract local readers. I'm glad that reference to Godzilla didn't appear. Come to think of it, that dragon thing ...
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I urge you to take a look at the real world solutions for the Chicago casque and the Cleveland casque vs the hints. BP was giving small, but verifiable hints for the Japanese audience that were not provided to the US readers.
I think it would be taking it too far to expect the searchers walk around town with some sort of listening device or Geiger-counter hunting snipe.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
I think it would be taking it too far to expect the searchers walk around town with some sort of listening device or Geiger-counter hunting for snipe.
Snipe are radioactive?
Who knew....
(GG... I haven't seen the translations for Chicago / Cleveland, yet.....will look later, time allowing. It's gotta be good...)
Choice
Mister EZ wrote::
Snipe are radioactive?
Who knew....
If they are from Fukushima they are.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
Yeah, I have zero idea what Choice is referring to there. Anyway... yeah, Burnstyle had all of the Japanese hints translated and put up a link to the recording yesterday. White Rabbit was awesome in transcribing them. I think it's in the "Clues in the Book" thread. It's eye opening... except for Boston key seekers -- BP actually didn't want to give out any hints because he feared anything he'd say would make it obvious!
I thought I was clear. I was responding to the suggestion that you need a special device to hear sounds from sky.
Scrappy929
6526
Thoughts?
MERLIN
She would look better as a blonde.
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
6526
Thoughts?
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
I think it would be taking it too far to expect the searchers walk around town with some sort of listening device or Geiger-counter hunting snipe.
Are you serious?
When did anyone suggest you'd have to walk around town with a radio? The hint provided by Preiss via the Japanese translator in the additional hint section that only appears in the Japanese version of the book is saying you should be looking for a radio broadcast tower (or some other similar type source that produces a "sound" requiring mechanical assistance of some sort to hear with the human ear) near "ace is high", not that you literally need to tune into a specific radio broadcast, or actually "hear" anything, or anything of the sort.
Choice
If that was BP's attempt at hinting a clue without giving away anything then he didn't do a good job. He could've just said look at a radio tower.
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
If that was BP's attempt at hinting a clue without giving away anything then he didn't do a good job. He could've just said look at a radio tower.
I would recommend what GG said above. Check out the hints from the Japanese version, either transcribed in the Clues in the Book thread or the audio link burnstyle posted. There is a lot of good, new information to be had. I don't have much constructive to offer on the 'parrots on telegraph hill' angle.
Just an example: The Japanese hint for the Chicago verse says "M and B are the names of famous composers", so I'm pretty sure it's not parrots and it's probably a broadcast mechanism of some sort).
JoshCornell
there is a parrot in the painting, so they are def referenced, its in the upper right portion of the rocks to the right of junipero serra.
Merlot Brougham
Goldengate wrote::
...or did you sell 'em for weed?
No need to insult weed in this thread.
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
6526
Thoughts?
Lets see. I go with the assumption that numbers represent the order of lines in the verse.
From top, 38, 3 is on top of 8 in the painting.
37, 7 is on top of 3.
So this makes the order of lines in the verse 7,3,8,
Then you have 6,5,2.
So it makes the verse:
1 At stone wall's door The air smells sweet
4 Sounds from the sky Near ace is high
6 Is an object Of Twain's attention
5 Running north, but first across In jewel's direction
2 Not far away High posts are three
7 Giant pole Giant step
3 Education and Justice For all to see
8 To the place The casque is kept.
Merlot Brougham
Choice wrote::
Lets see. I go with the assumption that numbers represent the order of lines in the verse.
From top, 38, 3 is on top of 8 in the painting.
37, 7 is on top of 3.
So this makes the order of lines in the verse 7,3,8,
Then you have 6,5,2.
So it makes the verse:
1 At stone wall's door The air smells sweet
4 Sounds from the sky Near ace is high
6 Is an object Of Twain's attention
5 Running north, but first across In jewel's direction
2 Not far away High posts are three
7 Giant pole Giant step
3 Education and Justice For all to see
8 To the place The casque is kept.
DrunkNerds parachute account spotted.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
DrunkNerds parachute account spotted.
The force was strong with that one. It would be a pity if he went over to the dark side.
Choice
I'm new in here. Someone should explain the politics and drama in here to me. Woooooshh.... over my head.
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
I'm new in here. Someone should explain the politics and drama in here to me. Woooooshh.... over my head.
I often post really intricate solves that don't narrow down a dig spot, as satire. Because, why would Preiss make a really intricate puzzle to lead to a huge area? Dude just ran around 12 cities in 18 months for a fun book with his friends, the 2 correct solves have had a chain of directions that narrow down the location, and not a Gordian knot of logic that just points the solver into another huge area. So I often find it funny to post a really specific sequence of logic that ends with some huge and bizarre area: see my solve of puzzle nine that very obviously leads to Antarctica. Somewhere in Antarctica. Probably near the center.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=architect&start=1920
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=architect&start=1935
Merlot Brougham
drunknerds wrote::
I often post really intricate solves that don't narrow down a dig spot, as satire. Because, why would Preiss make a really intricate puzzle to lead to a huge area? Dude just ran around 12 cities in 18 months for a fun book with his friends, the 2 correct solves have had a chain of directions that narrow down the location, and not a Gordian knot of logic that just points the solver into another huge area. So I often find it funny to post a really specific sequence of logic that ends with some huge and bizarre area: see my solve of puzzle nine that very obviously leads to Antarctica. Somewhere in Antarctica. Probably near the center.
You're a Gordian knot.
Choice
Yes, bravo indeed. But no encore please!
Merlot Brougham
Goldengate wrote::
I find this post more deserving of aggressive applause.
Best idea yet. How do we convince 4chan that Shia LaBeouf buried these casks? They'd dig em up faster than they hoisted the MAGA hat on that flagpole in Tennessee. Speaking of Tennessee, I'm pretty sure Preiss was such a visionary that he imagined a failed child actor attempting performance art in the 2010's would have a display in a field in Tennessee and buried a cask there.
Merlot Brougham
drunknerds wrote::
I often post really intricate solves that don't narrow down a dig spot, as satire. Because, why would Preiss make a really intricate puzzle to lead to a huge area? Dude just ran around 12 cities in 18 months for a fun book with his friends, the 2 correct solves have had a chain of directions that narrow down the location, and not a Gordian knot of logic that just points the solver into another huge area. So I often find it funny to post a really specific sequence of logic that ends with some huge and bizarre area: see my solve of puzzle nine that very obviously leads to Antarctica. Somewhere in Antarctica. Probably near the center.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=architect&start=1920
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&hilit=architect&start=1935
Gonna get a tattoo of this:
E: clearly the blue halo around Antarctica on the right matches the image. Exactly.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I often post really intricate solves that don't narrow down a dig spot, as satire.
What a coincidence. I read every long, intricate solve that doesn't narrow down to a dig spot (and even some that do) as satire. I call it "cornelling because contrary to popular belief, I do have a sense of humor.
Choice
Continuing on Aquatic park thread, at the west corner of the park is the Fort Mason tunnel:
https://tinyurl.com/ydfsp96b
Walking even further northward is the black point fire station:
https://tinyurl.com/yapw8euk
Does anyone know what this building was in the 70's? 80's? When was the smoke stack taken down?
In the old pictures it used to have a smoke stack. Here's a picture from 50's or 60's
and earlier pictures from SF library:
https://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfp ... A-6697.jpg
https://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfp ... A-6744.jpg
https://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfp ... A-6724.jpg
MrBackstop
Choice, that is the San Francisco Fire Dept. Pumping station #2. In my solve it is the reason for the Yin & Yang symbol. The smoke stack came down sometime in the 70s.
As for the Fort Mason tunnel, it was part of the Belt Railroad (think crossed arms in the image) which would move goods and people up and down the SF Waterfront along all the piers. Prisoners on their way to Alcatraz would be processed at or near the Presido, placed on a train and taken to Pier 43 (stone wall's door) where they would then board a Police Boat to the Rock.
Choice
MrBackstop wrote::
Choice, that is the San Francisco Fire Dept. Pumping station #2. In my solve it is the reason for the Yin & Yang symbol. The smoke stack came down sometime in the 70s.
As for the Fort Mason tunnel, it was part of the Belt Railroad (think crossed arms in the image) which would move goods and people up and down the SF Waterfront along all the piers. Prisoners on their way to Alcatraz would be processed at or near the Presido, placed on a train and taken to Pier 43 (stone wall's door) where they would then board a Police Boat to the Rock.
Simpler Yin Yang in the neighborhood would be the Ghirardelli Mermaids fountain. They sit in Yin Yang position.
Yin Yang is supposed to be a couple of gold-fish chasing tail. Fish... Mermaids.
Choice
MrBackstop wrote::
Choice, that is the San Francisco Fire Dept. Pumping station #2. In my solve it is the reason for the Yin & Yang symbol. The smoke stack came down sometime in the 70s.
As for the Fort Mason tunnel, it was part of the Belt Railroad (think crossed arms in the image) which would move goods and people up and down the SF Waterfront along all the piers. Prisoners on their way to Alcatraz would be processed at or near the Presido, placed on a train and taken to Pier 43 (stone wall's door) where they would then board a Police Boat to the Rock.
Simpler Yin Yang in the neighborhood would be the Ghirardelli Mermaids
fountain
. They sit in Yin Yang position.
Yin Yang is supposed to be a couple of gold-fish chasing tail. Fish... Mermaids.
maltedfalcon
There are lots of thoughts about, what this is or where that is or this, means this neighborhood, or general area.
we need to keep in mind the fact that these clues must narrow down to a reasonably small (if not exact) spot.
Looking at Chicago we started at the water tower, passed M&B and the bowman and the great lakes fountain.
But then Lincoln, 10x13 trees(whichever trees they were) the fence, the fixture, congress ave Illinois Central Railroad , the Art institute and the band shell, (as well as the bowman)
are all visible from the casque spot. yes there are other clues but from this alone, 9 out 13 clues above are visible from the spot.
All the clues above, we either passed or can see on the way to or at the casque site.
maltedfalcon
There are lots of thoughts about, what this is or where that is or this, means this neighborhood, or general area.
we need to keep in mind the fact that these clues must narrow down to a reasonably small (if not exact) spot.
Looking at Chicago we started at the water tower, passed M&B and the bowman and the great lakes
fountain
.
But then Lincoln, 10x13 trees(whichever trees they were) the fence, the fixture, congress ave Illinois Central Railroad , the Art institute and the band shell, (as well as the bowman)
are all visible from the casque spot. yes there are other clues but from this alone, 9 out 13 clues above are visible from the spot.
All the clues above, we either passed or can see on the way to or at the casque site.
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
There are lots of thoughts about, what this is or where that is or this, means this neighborhood, or general area.
we need to keep in mind the fact that these clues must narrow down to a reasonably small (if not exact) spot.
Looking at Chicago we started at the water tower, passed M&B and the bowman and the great lakes
fountain
.
But then Lincoln, 10x13 trees(whichever trees they were) the fence, the fixture, congress ave Illinois Central Railroad , the Art institute and the band shell, (as well as the bowman)
are all visible from the casque spot. yes there are other clues but from this alone, 9 out 13 clues above are visible from the spot.
All the clues above, we either passed or can see on the way to or at the casque site.
Very good point mf. If we keep the findings from the previous two solves in mind, we can validate / invalidate our potential spots. Unless you find these hard evidence visual identifiers that can relate directly to the image, chances are, you may want to move on to investigate elsewhere.
One thing I bring myself back to is how small the clues can be... One clue in the Chicago solve was very small... the circular shape on the right side with the hypocycloid, which was a shape that was on a metal widow guard above our M & B. Something I have heard time and again listening to the podcasts, these things will most likely go unnoticed unless you are there with boots on the ground.
Scrappy929
maltedfalcon wrote::
There are lots of thoughts about, what this is or where that is or this, means this neighborhood, or general area.
we need to keep in mind the fact that these clues must narrow down to a reasonably small (if not exact) spot.
Looking at Chicago we started at the water tower, passed M&B and the bowman and the great lakes fountain.
But then Lincoln, 10x13 trees(whichever trees they were) the fence, the fixture, congress ave Illinois Central Railroad , the Art institute and the band shell, (as well as the bowman)
are all visible from the casque spot. yes there are other clues but from this alone, 9 out 13 clues above are visible from the spot.
All the clues above, we either passed or can see on the way to or at the casque site.
Very good point mf. If we keep the findings from the previous two solves in mind, we can validate / invalidate our potential spots. Unless you find these hard evidence visual identifiers that can relate directly to the image, chances are, you may want to move on to investigate elsewhere.
One thing I bring myself back to is how small the clues can be... One clue in the Chicago solve was very small... the circular shape on the right side with the hypocycloid, which was a shape that was on a metal widow guard above our M & B. Something I have heard time and again listening to the podcasts, these things will most likely go unnoticed unless you are there with boots on the ground.
Scrappy929
Another thought on the symbols along the lower left side and lower center...
There is a particular symbol which looks to be a triangle above an inverted triangle (invert) and another symbol which appears to be a capital D with it's mirror image D (mirror). Could this be telling us to invert and mirror the image for a specific reason? For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
Anyone else have thoughts about any of the symbols?
maltedfalcon
Scrappy929 wrote::
One thing I bring myself back to is how small the clues can be... One clue in the Chicago solve was very small... the circular shape on the right side with the hypocycloid, which was a shape that was on a metal widow guard above our M & B. Something I have heard time and again listening to the podcasts, these things will most likely go unnoticed unless you are there with boots on the ground.
even worse, its not there any more so if you went now you would never find it...
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
Another thought on the symbols along the lower left side and lower center...
There is a particular symbol which looks to be a triangle above an inverted triangle (invert) and another symbol which appears to be a capital D with it's mirror image D (mirror). Could this be telling us to invert and mirror the image for a specific reason? For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
Anyone else have thoughts about any of the symbols?
I interpreted the D mirrored D as GD. You can see a cut in the middle of mirrored D to form a G to spell G-Delli described in previous posts.
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
I interpreted the D mirrored D as GD. You can see a cut in the middle of mirrored D to form a G to spell G-Delli described in previous posts.
On the high res image I was sent recently, I can clearly see there is no break on the left of that symbol. You would almost think that we already have the "Gh", so there shouldn't be a need for redundancy, if indeed that is what the Gh is for. Even that seems to be up for debate with the Great highway. Just my thought.
Choice
Some fun stuff:
• 11 half moons take me to the Port of San Francisco (ferry building) at the seawall; A 3+ mile stone wall that stretches from Fisherman’s Wharf to Mission Creek. The main building entrance consists of 3 large ½ moon windows, 2 smaller ones and 2 on the sides of the portico. From perspective of a person standing at the front center of the entrance, near top of the clock tower are 4 small globes (8 total but 4 visible). This ferry building is really a giant, 2 football field long atrium.
• A fun factoid: Element with 11 electrons (moons) is sodium, symbol NA that stands for Natrium. N atrium sounds like an atrium!
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ren ... 748839.php
A drone shot of the building:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSOhmh8IKV4
Interesting video of old SF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaPlVOpfVk4
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Simpler Yin Yang in the neighborhood would be the Ghirardelli Mermaids
fountain
. They sit in Yin Yang position.
Yin Yang is supposed to be a couple of gold-fish chasing tail. Fish... Mermaids.
Yin and Yang has to do with dark & bright, negative & positive. The mermaid
fountain
may have that shape to you but I do not go buy it and I cannot see it from my dig spot in National Maritime Park.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Simpler Yin Yang in the neighborhood would be the Ghirardelli Mermaids fountain. They sit in Yin Yang position.
Yin Yang is supposed to be a couple of gold-fish chasing tail. Fish... Mermaids.
Yin and Yang has to do with dark & bright, negative & positive. The mermaid fountain may have that shape to you but I do not go buy it and I cannot see it from my dig spot in National Maritime Park.
Mister EZ
The numbers , randomly placed, don't line up.
But, it is close to Telegraph Hill, Coit Tower, Chinatown and the Willie "Woo Woo" Wong Playground:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/willie-woo-woo-wong-playground/
So, run with it.
Why not?
Choice
Mister EZ wrote::
The numbers , randomly placed, don't line up.
But, it is close to Telegraph Hill, Coit Tower, Chinatown and the Willie "Woo Woo" Wong Playground:
hxxp://sfrecpark.org/destination/willie-woo-woo-wong-playground/
So, run with it.
Why not?
Numbers are not randomly placed. They are placed by size match. From large to small. You guys are Debbie downers!
Mister EZ
https://youtu.be/1eeHXCxbyn8
maltedfalcon
Hey for everybody thinking about the ferry building and the wharfs along the embaradero
of
SF.
Keep in mind it is not anything at all like it was then.
there is an entire freeway (google embarcadero freeway) that is no longer there.
and since the freeway basically walled that area off from the rest
of
SF, nobody went over there who didn't have to.
maltedfalcon
Hey for everybody thinking about the ferry building and the wharfs along the embaradero of SF.
Keep in mind it is not anything at all like it was then.
there is an entire freeway (google embarcadero freeway) that is no longer there.
and since the freeway basically walled that area off from the rest of SF, nobody went over there who didn't have to.
Choice
This might've been pointed out before but the two paintings with arched top, keyhole shaped borders are NYC and SF. These paintings could be maps viewed from arched locations. In case of NYC perhaps Chrysler building and Coit tower for SF.
Choice
This might've been pointed out before but the two paintings with arched top, keyhole shaped borders are NYC and SF. These paintings could be maps viewed from arched locations. In case
of
NYC perhaps Chrysler building and Coit tower for SF.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
So?
So more spots can be seen from height
of
a building than ground level for those people who are concerned about seeing all the clues from the destination.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
So?
So more spots can be seen from height of a building than ground level for those people who are concerned about seeing all the clues from the destination.
Rviewer1
Scrappy929 wrote::
Another thought on the symbols along the lower left side and lower center...
There is a particular symbol which looks to be a triangle above an inverted triangle (invert) and another symbol which appears to be a capital D with it's mirror image D (mirror). Could this be telling us to invert and mirror the image for a specific reason? For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
Anyone else have thoughts about any of the symbols?
The lowest symbol on the left side if you tilt it sideways looking at it from outside in looks like the Golden Gate Bridge with the cables going over one of the towers. So it really looks like half of the Golden Gate Bridge. Either that or a sailing ship.
The symbol above it if you tilt it slightly to the right looks like the masks worn in Shakespeare plays.
Rviewer1
Scrappy929 wrote::
Another thought on the symbols along the lower left side and lower center...
There is a particular symbol which looks to be a triangle above an inverted triangle (invert) and another symbol which appears to be a capital D with it's mirror image D (mirror). Could this be telling us to invert and mirror the image for a specific reason? For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
Anyone else have thoughts about any
of
the symbols?
The lowest symbol on the left side if you tilt it sideways looking at it from outside in looks like the Golden Gate Bridge with the cables going over one
of
the towers. So it really looks like half
of
the Golden Gate Bridge. Either that or a sailing ship.
The symbol above it if you tilt it slightly to the right looks like the masks worn in Shakespeare plays.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
So more spots can be seen from height
of
a building than ground level for those people who are concerned about seeing all the clues from the destination.
ohhh youre on to something!
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
So more spots can be seen from height of a building than ground level for those people who are concerned about seeing all the clues from the destination.
ohhh youre on to something!
JoshCornell
Rviewer1 wrote::
The lowest symbol on the left side if you tilt it sideways looking at it from outside in looks like the Golden Gate Bridge with the cables going over one
of
the towers. So it really looks like half
of
the Golden Gate Bridge. Either that or a sailing ship.
The symbol above it if you tilt it slightly to the right looks like the masks worn in Shakespeare plays.
i
dont think either
of
those are right,
i
have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
JoshCornell
Rviewer1 wrote::
The lowest symbol on the left side if you tilt it sideways looking at it from outside in looks like the Golden Gate Bridge with the cables going over one of the towers. So it really looks like half of the Golden Gate Bridge. Either that or a sailing ship.
The symbol above it if you tilt it slightly to the right looks like the masks worn in Shakespeare plays.
i dont think either of those are right, i have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
i dont think either of those are right, i have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
Are you going to honor us with your explanation?
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
i
dont think either
of
those are right,
i
have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
Are you going to honor us with your explanation?
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Are you going to honor us with your explanation?
i mean, i could, but goldengate prob knows better so...
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Are you going to honor us with your explanation?
i
mean,
i
could, but goldengate prob knows better so...
Scrappy929
JoshCornell wrote::
i dont think either of those are right, i have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
I wasn't seeking approval... it's called a question. That is the purpose of these forums, if I'm not mistaken. You don't have an explanation, you have a thought. I'll go ahead and burst your ego bubble... Invert and mirror the image then tell me the orientation of the yin yang symbol... #micdrop
Scrappy929
JoshCornell wrote::
i
dont think either
of
those are right,
i
have an explanation for each. nice try though keep at it.
I
wasn't seeking approval... it's called a question. That is the purpose
of
these forums, if
I
'm not mistaken. You don't have an explanation, you have a thought.
I
'll go ahead and burst your ego bubble... Invert and mirror the image then tell me the orientation
of
the yin yang symbol... #micdrop
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
In my theory, the counter clockwise spinning turntable pointed me to the exact location of 3 posts. Counter clockwise spinning Yin Yang could be just another hint to that.
And Josh, quoting General John Kelly: "empty barrel makes the most noise."
... making friends!
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
For example, the yin yang symbol in the original image is obviously not oriented correctly. If we invert and mirror the image, we then have our yin yang symbol in the correct orientation.
In my theory, the counter clockwise spinning turntable pointed me to the exact location
of
3 posts. Counter clockwise spinning Yin Yang could be just another hint to that.
And Josh, quoting General John Kelly: "empty barrel makes the most noise."
... making friends!
JoshCornell
well, im worlds further than anyone else in this game, and only one person is even close (a few others have right idea)...so your doubt is meaningless to me when
i
know im right cause the puzzle told me so...so...
JoshCornell
well, im worlds further than anyone else in this game, and only one person is even close (a few others have right idea)...so your doubt is meaningless to me when i know im right cause the puzzle told me so...so...
BINGO
JoshCornell wrote::
well, im worlds further than anyone else in this game, and only one person is even close (a few others have right idea)...so your doubt is meaningless to me when i know im right cause the puzzle told me so...so...
BINGO
JoshCornell wrote::
well, im worlds further than anyone else in this game, and only one person is even close (a few others have right idea)...so your doubt is meaningless to me when
i
know im right cause the puzzle told me so...so...
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
Oh good! Another quote to add to this small selection
of
Josh's greatest claims!
GG, please stop curating and repeating posts which were deleted for a reason. This is clutter and it is not helping.
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
Oh good! Another quote to add to this small selection of Josh's greatest claims!
GG, please stop curating and repeating posts which were deleted for a reason. This is clutter and it is not helping.
catherwood
i
was surfing and searching today and came across this entry from earlier this year.
I
'm not as familiar as (maybe)
I
should be with all
of
the random theories out there, so this one might be redundant or not.
I
don't buy half
of
the connections she makes, but it can be enlightening to see how other people think riddles should work.
hxxp://www.jennifermoss.com/byron-preis ... 1-verse-7/
catherwood
i was surfing and searching today and came across this entry from earlier this year. I'm not as familiar as (maybe) I should be with all of the random theories out there, so this one might be redundant or not. I don't buy half of the connections she makes, but it can be enlightening to see how other people think riddles should work.
hxxp://www.jennifermoss.com/byron-preis ... 1-verse-7/
Choice
I
replied to the author re her solve several months ago. No response.
I
had issue with her bouncing all over the place for sweet smell and Twain.
I
also don't see a clear connection between GGP and immigration
of
asians, since Angel igland is a predominant feature
of
the painting.
I
've heard the Lincoln connection to the rock in the wiki before. However elf/Tiburon combo makes sense to me.
Choice
I replied to the author re her solve several months ago. No response. I had issue with her bouncing all over the place for sweet smell and Twain. I also don't see a clear connection between GGP and immigration of asians, since
Angel
igland is a predominant feature of the painting.
I've heard the Lincoln connection to the rock in the wiki before. However elf/Tiburon combo makes sense to me.
Choice
I replied to the author re her solve several months ago. No response. I had issue with her bouncing all over the place for sweet smell and Twain. I also don't see a clear connection between GGP and immigration of asians, since Angel igland is a predominant feature of the painting.
I've heard the Lincoln connection to the rock in the wiki before. However elf/Tiburon combo makes sense to me.
Choice
Choice wrote::
elf/Tiburon combo makes sense to me.
Belvedere:
Choice
You don't need to flip the rose. the protruding finger in the rose corresponds with the location
of
immigration holding facility.
It's a huge coincidence that the Tiburon looking rock formation sits right on top
of
the rose (angel island) were it should be. Also shark on top left
of
painting (position
of
Pacific ocean) can be a second clue to Tiburon (shark in Spanish).
Choice
You don't need to flip the rose. the protruding finger in the rose corresponds with the location of immigration holding facility.
It's a huge coincidence that the Tiburon looking rock formation sits right on top of the rose (
angel
island) were it should be. Also shark on top left of painting (position of Pacific ocean) can be a second clue to Tiburon (shark in Spanish).
Choice
You don't need to flip the rose. the protruding finger in the rose corresponds with the location of immigration holding facility.
It's a huge coincidence that the Tiburon looking rock formation sits right on top of the rose (angel island) were it should be. Also shark on top left of painting (position of Pacific ocean) can be a second clue to Tiburon (shark in Spanish).
Choice
You don't need to
flip
the rose. the protruding finger in the rose corresponds with the location of immigration holding facility.
It's a huge coincidence that the Tiburon looking rock formation sits right on top of the rose (angel island) were it should be. Also shark on top left of painting (position of Pacific ocean) can be a second clue to Tiburon (shark in Spanish).
Choice
I'm not suggesting that the Tiburon/
Angel
Isle. is the destination but just a clue in the painting. I posted my turn-table theory earlier. Does anyone read anymore?
Choice
I'm not suggesting that the Tiburon/Angel Isle. is the destination but just a clue in the painting. I posted my turn-table theory earlier. Does anyone read anymore?
Choice
I
'm not suggesting that the Tiburon/Angel Isle. is the destination but just a clue in the painting.
I
posted my turn-table theory earlier. Does anyone read anymore?
Choice
Another plight
of
Asian immigration story is Japanese immigration. Two famous fountains in SF were designed by Ruth Asawa. SF Fountain in front
of
Grand Hyatt in downtown, the other is mermaids in Ghirardelli square. Long story short, she was in internment camp for Japanese Americans when she was 16.
One side
of
the Fountain shows Lombard st.
Mermaids sitting in Yin Yang position, one
of
the mermaids cradles a baby, similar arm position as in painting.
https://
i
.imgur.com/bcnX03c.jpg
Choice
Another plight of Asian immigration story is Japanese immigration. Two famous fountains in SF were designed by Ruth Asawa. SF Fountain in front of Grand Hyatt in downtown, the other is mermaids in Ghirardelli square. Long story short, she was in internment camp for Japanese Americans when she was 16.
One side of the Fountain shows Lombard st.
Mermaids sitting in Yin Yang position, one of the mermaids cradles a baby, similar arm position as in painting.
https://i.imgur.com/bcnX03c.jpg
erexere
Cool sculpture. Does the clock near the base read 6 o'clock?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Does the clock near the base read 6 o'clock?
Twice a day.
Choice
Or maybe not! One maybe able to find all the clues in the painting in this fountain.
Scrappy929
Found an exact match for the 2 lower left symbols on the GGP outline in image 1 at the same location, Brocklebank Apartment Building located at 1000 Mason Street near Huntington park. Haven't found anything else notable in the area as of yet. Maybe someone with an architectural / artistic background would know what these are called. They could have been used as designs on other buildings / structures. Something to look out for...
hxxp://www.historyshomes.com/detail.cfm?id=748
Scrappy929
Found an exact match for the 2 lower left symbols on the GGP outline in image 1 at the same location, Brocklebank Apartment Building located at 1000 Mason Street near Huntington park. Haven't found anything else notable in the area as
of
yet. Maybe someone with an architectural / artistic background would know what these are called. They could have been used as designs on other buildings / structures. Something to look out for...
hxxp://www.historyshomes.com/detail.cfm?id=748
Choice
I believe the symbols on the same row are related. i.e. 2 triangles with the rectangle/cross across the robe. I'm in the camp of GG bridge on those.
If you rotate the 2 triangles clockwise it looks like a span of the bridge with it's reflection.
Notice the reflection part is distorted by waves.
Also X and A resemble the base of the tower and the tower itself.
Choice
I
believe the symbols on the same row are related.
i
.e. 2 triangles with the rectangle/cross across the robe.
I
'm in the camp
of
GG bridge on those.
If you rotate the 2 triangles clockwise it looks like a span
of
the bridge with it's reflection.
Notice the reflection part is distorted by waves.
Also X and A resemble the base
of
the tower and the tower itself.
Choice
And this is how sounds from the sky is replaced!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kosw1yb2RFg
Mister EZ
Choice....
I
'll buy that.....
(
I
can see what you're saying about the bridge/symbols.)
Mister EZ
Choice....I'll buy that.....
(I can see what you're saying about the bridge/symbols.)
Choice
Two triangles also resemble entrance and exit deltas to GGB, SF side.
https://tinyurl.com/y87llxlt
Rviewer1
Does anyone one have some good ideas on what the 3 high wooden posts might be apart from the Fishermen’s wharf sign?
Choice
3 masts of a ship. A bunch of them would've been docked at Hyde
pier
.
I myself wouldn't put much weight on the wooden part.
Choice
3 masts of a ship. A bunch of them would've been docked at Hyde pier.
I myself wouldn't put much weight on the wooden part.
Choice
Let me try to shoehorn one in for
stone wall's door
:
So we established that stonewall is the dragon in the painting and a door can be a gate.
So we got Dragon's Gate (china gate, chinatown gate).
Looking at the Dragon's gate, the two dragons on top of the gate are golden.
So would that make it
At Golden Gate
?
Love those fish gargoyles.
Rviewer1
The wooden posts along with the air tastes/smells sweet interpretation changes the way I might choose to solve it. For example if I chose to start my hunt at Shakespeare Garden ( Stone Walls door), I would use the garden of fragrance as the air smells sweet because of (not far away, high posts are three) meaning Sutro Tower. But with out Sutro as my wooden posts then I might have to go with Ghirardelli as my Stone Walls Door in addition to that taste/smell sweet hint and then to the only three wooden posts high I know of which is the Fisherman’s Wharf sign.
Choice
Hey Goldengate, do you have a detailed period map of the GGB/Presidio area you could post? I think you could make a correlation between the woman and the map of the area if you consider the two on/off ramp deltas as her hands pointing.
maltedfalcon
fyi the presidio was an active duty army base at the time, surrounded by a barb wire fence and off limits to all civilians.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
fyi the presidio was an active duty army base at the time, surrounded by a barb wire fence and off limits to all civilians.
There are points of interest in the area not within Presidio, i.e. the 3 gun posts at Battery Godfrey at 7 O'clock from the deltas. Or Battery Boutelle.
Choice
Thanks Goldengate. Here's a bit of similarity I can see right away.
maltedfalcon
a swirl is such a common occurrence in nature, architecture, art and monuments as to be totally useless as a clue.
That very same section has been used to show JFK blvd, Lombard St. various monument and garden paths...
Scrappy929
Wanted to see what different ideas we have about the symbols on the border of her dress.
While I do not believe they represent shapes of structures or a map representation (I could be wrong), could they be some sort of rebus code? Are the symbols truly symbols, i.e. masonic symbols, Greek symbols, etc... that have a specific meaning or are they shapes we will see on structures like what I've posted before. Any relevance to solving the puzzle? Any other thoughts as to what these mean?
Upside down Roman numerals - possibly representative of Roman numerals on a clock.
X A --> (possibly a (A) cross (X), across, running north but first... with the X being a symbol for crossing i.e. railroad crossing) Looks to be a capital X and a capital A
The other symbols which seem to be elusive...
I did see someone post awhile back that the square and triangle symbol near the G in image 1 were also in image 11. Anyone that has researched or followed the image 11 thread come across what these might be?
Hammersmith
Someone posted for image 1 a while ago that they were topographic map symbols. I thought it was a good match. The square with a dot is a boundary marker and the triangle with a dot is a horizontal marker.
Kalessin
A number of people, myself included, think that the triangle symbol in the woman's stole in Image 11 represents the iconic Citgo sign above Kenmore square.
My avatar for this forum is a photo of the Kenmore Square Citgo sign.
Choice
Speaking of the palace of fine arts and the symbols, specifically the circle, Yin Yang and two half circles; I had to drag these out of the backups from a long time ago (April!). Some fun stuff I was brainstorming:
In Chinese culture, the circle stands for “fulfilled”, “oneness”, “perfection”, “unity”. More specifically, it’s the process of something coming full circle that bears the most importance. Family members get together to celebrate the day that the moon is at its fullest (Mid-Autumn day). Two halves of a broken round mirror symbolizes the reunion of spouses who were separated. Yin and Yang forms a perfect circle divided by a sinuous line (taichi symbol), and stands for the oneness of conflicting forces inside everything.
https://allegravita.com/2012/04/23/more ... e-culture/
So playing with the painting I tried to join the two broken halves of a mirror. This also could be done by folding a printed copy of the picture in the 80’s.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
In Chinese culture, the circle stands for “fulfilled”, “oneness”, “perfection”, “unity”. More specifically, it’s the process of something coming full circle that bears the most importance. Family members get together to celebrate the day that the moon is at its fullest (Mid-Autumn day). Two halves of a broken round mirror symbolizes the reunion of spouses who were separated. Yin and Yang forms a perfect circle divided by a sinuous line (taichi symbol), and stands for the oneness of conflicting forces inside everything.
In Chinese culture, the Taichi/circle stands for none of the above.
Choice
Just quoting online research
Spiritr
In China, or to a Chinese person
there are 3 things that symbol could mean,
1: Taoism(Religion)
2: Martial Art
3: Magnet
Choice
If you're a 6 year old grasshopper
Spiritr
you trying to make a racist joke?
Choice
I don't know how your brain works but that's for the team of psychologists to figure out.
Choice
So does anyone have any theories about what the blue bubbles around the dragon are?
Scrappy929
Kalessin wrote::
A number of people, myself included, think that the triangle symbol in the woman's stole in Image 11 represents the iconic Citgo sign above Kenmore square.
My avatar for this forum is a photo of the Kenmore Square Citgo sign.
That is an interesting thought. Not sure that would work for for image 1. To the best of my knowledge, there are no Citgo stations in San Francisco. Thanks for the info though.
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
So playing with the painting I tried to join the two broken halves of a mirror. This also could be done by folding a printed copy of the picture in the 80’s.
I thought had read somewhere before that this was a thing, where you could fold images / illustrations and they would reveal things. Not with The Secret, but with something else...
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
So does anyone have any theories about what the blue bubbles around the dragon are?
Haven't been able to come up with anything solid. First thought was maybe the bottom of either a fountain or pool or maybe something where you would have water bubbling up to the top. Then thought maybe something along the lines of stained glass. They do look similar to the bubbles used in three panes of image 12. Outside of that, not a clue...
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
Haven't been able to come up with anything solid. First thought was maybe the bottom of either a fountain or pool or maybe something where you would have water bubbling up to the top. Then thought maybe something along the lines of stained glass. They do look similar to the bubbles used in three panes of image 12. Outside of that, not a clue...
Perhaps if we assume the stoney road is the Lombard brick road then the blue bubbles could represent hydrangea blooms. There's an interesting story about their purpose.
hxxp://www.sfcityguides.org/public_guid ... itted=TRUE
Kalessin
Scrappy929 wrote::
I thought had read somewhere before that this was a thing, where you could fold images / illustrations and they would reveal things. Not with The Secret, but with something else...
Mad Magazine has had a "fold-in" in the inside back cover since about 1964.
There's an example in the Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Fold-in
Choice
Also just like the 2 triangles and the rectangle with cross across the dress come together look like Fort Point and GGB, the 3 circles (state farm logo thing) and square triangle across the dress come together look like a clock winding key or a skeleton key. X and A makes the bridge tower.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2733
Choice
Scrappy, are you considering Grace/Huntington solution?
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
Scrappy, are you considering Grace/Huntington solution?
I've been researching it since I found those 2 symbols on a nearby building. Haven't come up with much of anything else though. There is some really cool history behind the park.
The flagpole that is in the park now was in a different spot back in the 70s/80s. There was a flagpole in the area directly across from the Flood Fountain where the circular flower bed is now. Area wasn't quite as paved then either.
hxxp://ronhenggeler.com/Newsletters/201 ... etter.html
Choice
I looked into it a while back and soon found out the hiding places are all redone and pristine. I concentrated the search on the small strip of lawn between Grace cathedral and Huntington park, just because of G/H and pearl being in the middle by the fountain. Considered the steeple pole as well.
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
Hey Goldengate, do you have a detailed period map of the GGB/Presidio area you could post? I think you could make a correlation between the woman and the map of the area if you consider the two on/off ramp deltas as her hands pointing.
1 - it is not at the presidio.
2 - it is not at the presidio.
That being said last weekend at the presidio I spotted a totem pole that I have no previous knowledge of,
I do not know how old it is or if it even existed in 1980. but in the interest of keeping it all out there.
It is in the parking lot of the chapel of the presidio, 131 fisher loop
I'm sure the museum of the presidio would have more information on the totem. go for it.
Choice
Makes a nice yard art for your front lawn! I was actually considering the pet cemetery there before I read the exclusion areas in the book. The painting frame looks like a typical gravestone and her face is cat like. I looked at a few of them on youtube and couldn't relate. Also the building in front of the cemetery ( Stilwell Hall) has the same arched facade features as the "Iron gate" rock formation (similar to the burnt down building in Alcatraz). Lots of overpass posts around (since cemetery is under the overpass) and picket fence matches the iron gate. A lot of sounds from cars running overhead. Too bad a lot of damage came to the place when they cut all the trees down for Doyle project. There are a few youtube videos of the cemetery before the project.
Choice
For the legion of Honor fans, here's an old post card with the pole:
Choice
Huntington
park pole was where the little round flower garden is now. Also another flag pole on the
Huntington
hotel side (might be the flag on hotel top). 1973 and 1956 pics:
If you stand at a certain spot you can see H and G reversed on top of the hotel.
Included the front entrance image to the hotel.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7920853 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7916318 ... 384!8i8192
Choice
Huntington park pole was where the little round flower garden is now. Also another flag pole on the Huntington hotel side (might be the flag on hotel top). 1973 and 1956 pics:
If you stand at a certain spot you can see H and G reversed on top of the hotel.
Included the front entrance image to the hotel.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7920853 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7916318 ... 384!8i8192
Choice
I meant HOTEL GTON visible, 2 rows of letters starting with H and G (backward). The rest of the letters would be covered by the roof line.
Rviewer1
Thanks for all the historic pic’s. Keep up the good work. Is anyone concerned about the 3 wooden high posts? Do they change anyone’s solution? Also, I really like Redwood Park at the Transamerica building. If I was BP that is where I would put it if it was a public park because it hits the trifecta of the BP check list. The problem is that it is a private park and I’m not sure if the rules state that the casque would not be buried in a private park?
I have have 3 solves but I don’t have Sutro Tower anymore for my 3 high posts. I have it for the sounds from the sky. My ending spot is at the Legion of Honor. Matt came up with the Giant Pole and I finally figured out the Giant step at the Legion of Honor. I’m going to get my dig permit from the SF Park and Rec. This will be my first dig attempt.
Does anyone have a link to a decent resolution of image 1?
MERLIN
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86301628/Image%2001
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
I don’t have Sutro Tower anymore for my 3 high posts. I have it for the sounds from the sky. My ending spot is at the Legion of Honor.
That's quite a jump from Sutro tower to L of H. It's like 4 miles straight line distance. But here's an old overhead shot of the grounds with flagpole.
burnstyle
Flag pole was gone well before the 80's though.... I think. I can't find any pictures of it being there past the late 50's or 60's
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
That's quite a jump from Sutro tower to L of H. It's like 4 miles straight line distance. But here's an old overhead shot of the grounds with flagpole.
It’s not. The radio signals from Sutro tower can be heard on radios all around San Francisco. Hence”sounds from the sky” In the Legion of Honor solution which was pioneered by Matt although my path getting there was different. My overall method is possibly different than Matt’s. I’m not going from beginning to end as the verse lays it out. I’m matching lines in the verse with the image with an X on the map for each match. Then since the verse does not have to go in any particular order, I choose my own or based on the X’s on my map. My solve for the Legion of Honor starts at GGP and ends at the LOH.
I have another Solution that starts at Ghirardelli Square then heads to Fisherman’s Wharf for the first two Matches. I also take into consideration that when you are at the casque location that you should be able to see at least some of the other locations that are in the image
BTW, can you link in a copy of your LOH pic but I need to see further to the right a little beyond parking lot.
Choice
If the red X marks your spot you may find a lot of tree roots and hard rocky dirt. Have you probed?
catherwood
Rviewer1 wrote::
BTW, can you link in a copy of your LOH pic but I need to see further to the right a little beyond parking lot.
When you quote-reply to a post, you'll see the URL of an image in the code block. Or, right-click and use the context menu to open the image in a new window to see it in full as well as the URL.
https://i.imgur.com/HKlvLUN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NsEVawZ.jpg
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
BTW, can you link in a copy of your LOH pic but I need to see further to the right a little beyond parking lot.
That's actually the whole postcard scan so no extension.
Here's a higher res. scan. Click on the picture to see full size.
https://i.imgur.com/HKkNIk8.jpg
Rviewer1
Thanks Chioce and Catherwood.
Burnstyle, I’m not using the flag pole as my Giant pole but thanks for pointing that out.
Choice, no I haven’t probed the red X yet. Right now it appears next to the tree. Once I do that could eliminate or confirm. I am continuing to work out different Giant poles and steps at the LOH. I really liked your dragons gate with the two Lyons as being part of a solution. Maybe we can work on that.
Choice
It's reasonable to presume that the most iconic symbol of SF will be more prominent in the solve/painting than a couple of thrones on a rose.
Choice
Steam whistle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUhQht8zUWo
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
The radio signals from Sutro tower can be heard on radios all around San Francisco. Hence”sounds from the sky”
I'm perplexed. How would that possibly be a clue that will narrow things down since sound waves are everywhere?
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
I'm perplexed. How would that possibly be a clue that will narrow things down since sound waves are everywhere?
They wont.....These are the wrong verses for SF. Malted knew this in 2008 - these verses belong in Montreal. MF got SO CLOSE - but he miss-interpreted the most important clue - the clue that is actually the key to the entire solve - "The object of Twain's attention" - it is the most important phrase in the entire puzzle....and explains what the character is doing with his hands. I recently figured it out - and image 9 may actually be one of the easiest puzzles. This is what was missed in 2008 -
hxxp://www.sanctuairesquebec.com/en/gal ... ell-towers
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
They wont.....These are the wrong verses for SF. Malted knew this in 2008 - these verses belong in Montreal. MF got SO CLOSE - but he miss-interpreted the most important clue - the clue that is actually the key to the entire solve - "The object of Twain's attention" - it is the most important phrase in the entire puzzle....and explains what the character is doing with his hands. I recently figured it out - and image 9 may actually be one of the easiest puzzles. This is what was missed in 2008 -
hxxp://www.sanctuairesquebec.com/en/gal ... ell-towers
Are you sure it's not Baltimore?!
Choice
You can interpret Twain in multiple ways in different settings. Literally Mark Twain means 12'. Twain by itself could mean 2. It could be a 12' statue i.e. Columbus at Coit or a twin tower building like a church, i.e. the one near Washington square in SF on Columbus! It could be NYC.
MERLIN
I found an "image match" that locks verse 7 to Montreal - after that everything started falling into place.
Choice
The whole purpose of cloud share solving is to SHARE! Otherwise you are a cloud snoop/parasite. My experience is the people that claim the biggest are the most nothing-burgers. Afterall the empty barrel makes that loudest noise. So share or be judged!
MERLIN
Looking at the character in image 9 - the lower curls of his hair - above his left shoulder - spell out the word "justice" - justice for all to see.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Looking at the character in image 9 - the lower curls of his hair - above his left shoulder - spell out the word "justice" - justice for all to see.
I see JUSREC
MERLIN
It's not easy to make out - the T is large and extends over the other characters - but it's all there.
Choice
Even if you shoehorn T and I in there, E comes before C.
MERLIN
Palencar gets really creative with some of his letters - and he's definitely not just going to throw it out there clear as a bell - look at how funny some of the lon/lat numbers were shaped. SF will never be solved with verse 7.....Malted had it right 10 years ago.
Choice
I tried! I just can't see it. All I come up with is JUS and REC or RECA. Maybe it's some sort of juice in french!
Perhaps you should post an image with justice traced.
MERLIN
I haven't even figured out how to post pics to this board yet.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Is this it?
Nice work Choice!!! That is Damn close!
I
have the final E a little higher upwards in the hair....BUT you are definitely seeing what
I
see.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Is this it?
Nice work Choice!!! That is Damn close! I have the final E a little higher upwards in the hair....BUT you are definitely seeing what I see.
Choice
A bit forced but hey why not. There's an R next to T as well. Maybe he's ordering side dish!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
A bit forced but hey why not. There's an R next to T as well. Maybe he's ordering side dish!
The R
is telling us were "RIGHT ON THE MONEY BABEEEEE"!!!!!
Choice
Oh we're so gonna build that stonewall; on the northern border!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Oh we're so gonna build that stonewall; on the northern border!
Hey Choice....
I
'm going to try to move the rest
of
this to the image 9 thread - let me know if your still around.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Oh we're so gonna build that stonewall; on the northern border!
Hey Choice....I'm going to try to move the rest of this to the image 9 thread - let me know if your still around.
Rviewer1
Ok, which verse goes with image 1 then? Verse 6?
Choice, as far as sounds from the sky, I was going on the Japanese hint that you needed a device to hear them. Having said that, it does not effect my LOH solution. Before the Japanese translation, I had the sounds from the sky coming from highway 1.
Rviewer1
Ok, which verse goes with image 1 then? Verse 6?
Choice, as far as sounds from the sky,
I
was going on the Japanese hint that you needed a device to hear them. Having said that, it does not effect my LOH solution. Before the Japanese translation,
I
had the sounds from the sky coming from highway 1.
Choice
So radio waves narrows the puzzle down to the planet's atmosphere. Not much help with that clue.
Hwy 1 is about 2 miles away from L
of
H, in the middle
of
Richmond district. So not close, no soup for you.
Choice
So radio waves narrows the puzzle down to the planet's atmosphere. Not much help with that clue.
Hwy 1 is about 2 miles away from L of H, in the middle of Richmond district. So not close, no soup for you.
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
So radio waves narrows the puzzle down to the planet's atmosphere. Not much help with that clue.
Hwy 1 is about 2 miles away from L of H, in the middle of Richmond district. So not close, no soup for you.
No, I still have some soup as you know that Hwy 1 goes through GGP. I’m going from GGP down 34th st to clement and take the LOH drive. That’s a walk in the park for me. Sorry about the pun.
So what verse does Merlin attribute to image 1
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
So radio waves narrows the puzzle down to the planet's atmosphere. Not much help with that clue.
Hwy 1 is about 2 miles away from L
of
H, in the middle
of
Richmond district. So not close, no soup for you.
No,
I
still have some soup as you know that Hwy 1 goes through GGP.
I
’m going from GGP down 34th st to clement and take the LOH drive. That’s a walk in the park for me. Sorry about the pun.
So what verse does Merlin attribute to image 1
MERLIN
I
honestly believe that verse 10 belongs with SF image 1.
MERLIN
I honestly believe that verse 10 belongs with SF image 1.
Rviewer1
I
will have check that out. Thanks Merlin.
Rviewer1
I will have check that out. Thanks Merlin.
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
No, I still have some soup as you know that Hwy 1 goes through GGP. I’m going from GGP down 34th st to clement and take the LOH drive.
I'd buy it if HWY 1 was on a overpass and you were walking underneath. Like if you're riding a bike or walking from GG bridge (west side) and go under the bridge to get to the Presidio or baker beach. Arguing that sound travels in the sky is not an option! NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
No,
I
still have some soup as you know that Hwy 1 goes through GGP.
I
’m going from GGP down 34th st to clement and take the LOH drive.
I
'd buy it if HWY 1 was on a overpass and you were walking underneath. Like if you're riding a bike or walking from GG bridge (west side) and go under the bridge to get to the Presidio or baker beach. Arguing that sound travels in the sky is not an option! NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
I
'd buy it if HWY 1 was on a overpass and you were walking underneath. Like if you're riding a bike or walking from GG bridge (west side) and go under the bridge to get to the Presidio or baker beach. Arguing that sound travels in the sky is not an option! NO SOUP FOR YOU!
I
having a late dinner tonight and the only thing
I
have in my refrigerator is some pea soup. So
I
’m going to have it.
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
I'd buy it if HWY 1 was on a overpass and you were walking underneath. Like if you're riding a bike or walking from GG bridge (west side) and go under the bridge to get to the Presidio or baker beach. Arguing that sound travels in the sky is not an option! NO SOUP FOR YOU!
I having a late dinner tonight and the only thing I have in my refrigerator is some pea soup. So I’m going to have it.
MERLIN
Nothin like hot soup and buried treasure to bring out your inner pirate.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Nothin like hot soup and buried treasure to bring out your inner pirate.
is that a quote from the one-eyed Willie?!
Spiritr
Unknown:
I'd buy it if HWY 1 was on a overpass and you were walking underneath. Like if you're riding a bike or walking from GG bridge (west side) and go under the bridge to get to the Presidio or baker beach. Arguing that sound travels in the sky is not an option! NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Choice
Crossover dr. / JFK, that's another 10+ blocks away from 34th. Where's your starting point? Presidio and GGB are not on his way to L of H from GGP.
MrBackstop
Sounds from the sky...... The speaker towers in National Maritime Park
Choice
MrBackstop wrote::
Sounds from the sky...... The speaker towers in National Maritime Park
There's an irrational backlash against foghorn in this thread even-though it can satisfy Japanese translation of a device-involved sound maker.
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
There's an irrational backlash against foghorn in this thread even-though it can satisfy Japanese translation of a device-involved sound maker.
Shhh! people will notice!
Choice
So this place is very silent in response to the post that verse 7 not belonging to Image 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re72di5phM0
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
So this place is very silent in response to the post that verse 7 not belonging to Image 1.
That's because it really doesn't make sense.
Delilah84
Possible major update for this image!
I hope this can help!
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7362
gManTexas
Delilah84 wrote::
Possible major update for this image!
I hope this can help!
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7362
Not sure what you are getting at, or how this is a possible update. It is almost a circular reference.
While I'm excited about new ideas, I must say that under the Image threads, there should be a positive match to physical objects or exact matches to the said Image to be valid. It doesn't make sense to post a bunch of random images of objects that roughly describe the image and say "a major update". Please remember that there are years of research that have gone into this.
prospector
catherwood wrote::
i was surfing and searching today and came across this entry from earlier this year. I'm not as familiar as (maybe) I should be with all of the random theories out there, so this one might be redundant or not. I don't buy half of the connections she makes, but it can be enlightening to see how other people think riddles should work.
hxxp://www.jennifermoss.com/byron-preis ... 1-verse-7/
Hello Catherwood,
I am new to this site and your's is the first post I have replied to on this site.
I have been looking at all the post around the internet after I studied the image and verse. I was compelled by Jennifer Moss and her ideas. I had a lot of fun looking up everything and reading. I didn't look at anyone's ideas until I really looked at the images Preiss developed with the artist he commissioned to paint the images. I saw many things that just popped out at me. I am grateful for all of the posts on the City of San Francisco and Golden Gate Park. That makes so much sense. I don't really like all the bla bla bla about who is finding what, where and when. But that is ok I just scan over them. Why do they do that?
I was trying to get on the PBworks site but I think it is full. There is a fellow on there that is digging with permits. How do you get a permit to dig? Have you dug anywhere?
Choice
I was wondering if anyone has studied Palencar's evolving signature (devolving perhaps) throughout years.
I'm asking so I don't waste too much time researching this.
I'm bugged by his spelled out signature on image 1 where others don't have any or just initials.
Could the shape of the signature be a clue? Notice the fish/shark-like Jesus-fish shape in the yellow rectangle. Also the extended curved R.
A cursory glance at a few websites, including
hxxp://www.johnjudepalencar.com/
I noticed he normally signs his illustrations and paintings (if at all) with printed letters.
I also noticed he has the image 5 (Castle Hat) with his full signature:
Here are some sample of his signatures:
catherwood
Choice wrote::
Could the shape of the signature be a clue?
I seriously doubt it. "Could" it be? Maybe, in a long shot, and only if ByronP specifically told the artist how to present his work. Remember that this was the artist's first commercial gig, basically the start of his professional career. His signature evolved over time, because TIME. It's possible that the one painting with the full sig was the first piece turned in, and after that one BP told him to tone it down and not draw so much attention to it, and thus the other sigs are just initials.
Choice
Very good points CW. Even Though it kinda looks like the dragon's gate.
Any Coit tower/Pioneer park solution fans here?
prospector
I am wondering if any of you watch the site
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/221 ... Solution??
?
I don't think they are accepting new people because it is full.
I am new to this social media site but I have been looking at the image for a long time. I didn't really get into the verse until lately.
I read through the 186 + pages on this site for the Image one thread and I am so impressed with all the hard work you people have been doing. I was in a panic a few months ago when I couldn't find my book. So I was going to order a new one on online. I found all of you and then some.
What I am doing at this point, from my recliner; not a arm chair, is to make a list of digs. I have eight from this thread so far with details. I saw
Oregonian and JR Peraza
from the above sit with digs in Golden Gate park. I haven't go through all of the threads on that site. If either of these people are on this site let me know. I think I saw Oregonian here but not JR Preaza.
I have put my application in for a dig in SF Golden Gate Park; and as I'm writing this I get a call from Parks and Rec. Woo Hoo. I love San Francisco. I have been spending a lot more time going to the park. I didn't know how many things are in that place.
What is really exciting is that I have match up with a lot of things people have set forth.
There may be a thread of digs and I just can't find it. I did see a place with a recent exploration when I was in GG Park over the weekend. I will be heading there early on Sunday for the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival and I will be looking around some more. I took a lot of photos and will be posting some of them as soon as I get this information narrowed down. If anyone wants me to shoot something for them let me know and I will try.
I think I will try a dig in December.
Choice
Yes hope it's not too wet and cold in Dec.
Harigawa Garden area is nice!
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
Very good points CW. Even Though it kinda looks like the dragon's gate.
Any Coit tower/Pioneer park solution fans here?
I like the Filbert Street Stairs as a Giant Step to Coit Tower.
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
I like the Filbert Street Stairs as a Giant Step to Coit Tower.
Well, if you consider the tower as the giant pole then a 'giant' becomes a unit of distance i.e. 1 giant or 1 yard.
Do you have a solution for 3 posts?
Choice
Has anyone probed the red X area?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Has anyone probed the red X area?
Not sure, but what leads you there?
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
Not sure, but what leads you there?
I explained most of this before so sorry for redundancy.
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
Choice
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
Stonewall= dragon in painting, door=gate
Running north but 1st across = Running diagonally
In the jewel's direction = to the east (NYC)
Is an object Of Twain's attention = Is an object 12' standing = statue of Columbus. So:
Running diagonally is Columbus
Windy dragon is Lombard st. It's nose points to a hill, Telegraph perhaps
Choice
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
Stonewall= dragon in painting, door=gate
Running
north but 1st across =
Running
diagonally
In the jewel's direction = to the east (NYC)
Is an object Of Twain's attention = Is an object 12' standing = statue of Columbus. So:
Running
diagonally is Columbus
Windy dragon is Lombard st. It's nose points to a hill, Telegraph perhaps
Choice
Now for a shoe-horned Not far away High posts are three (word substitution/play):
Not far away = near
high = north
posts = post st.
3 blocks north of Post street is Pine Street
So high posts are three = Pine
A simple substitution and you get 'near pine' or 'pine near', sounds like Pioneer
Choice
I also covered the "counter clockwise-running clock" before.
The turn-about around the statue, of course runs counter clockwise.
The red X is about the same distance from the structure as the height of the Coit.
Justice, Alcatraz is clearly visible.
Education, all the murals
Choice
I also covered the "
counter
clockwise
-
running
clock" before.
The turn-about around the statue, of course runs
counter
clockwise
.
The red X is about the same distance from the structure as the height of the Coit.
Justice, Alcatraz is clearly visible.
Education, all the murals
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
Stonewall= dragon in painting, door=gate
Running
north but 1st across =
Running
diagonally
In the jewel's direction = to the east (NYC)
Is an object Of Twain's attention = Is an object 12' standing = statue of Columbus. So:
Running
diagonally is Columbus
Windy dragon is Lombard st. It's nose points to a hill, Telegraph perhaps
I'm following you, but can you explain the Twain and Columbus connection?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
Stonewall= dragon in painting, door=gate
Running north but 1st across = Running diagonally
In the jewel's direction = to the east (NYC)
Is an object Of Twain's attention = Is an object 12' standing = statue of Columbus. So:
Running diagonally is Columbus
Windy dragon is Lombard st. It's nose points to a hill, Telegraph perhaps
I'm following you, but can you explain the Twain and Columbus connection?
Choice
Literal meaning of mark twain is 12'
Statue of Columbus is 12' tall
Attention, is military command to stand straight
"Mark Twain" (meaning "Mark number two") was a Mississippi River term: the second mark on the line that measured depth signified two fathoms, or twelve feet—safe depth for the steamboat. In 1857, at the age of twenty-one, he became a "cub" steamboat pilot.
prospector
Choice wrote::
Yes hope it's not too wet and cold in Dec.
Harigawa Garden area is nice!
It never rains in California.
Choice
prospector wrote::
It never rains in California.
I think that refers to desert south only!
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Literal meaning of mark twain is 12'
Statue of Columbus is 12' tall
Attention, is military command to stand straight
"Mark Twain" (meaning "Mark number two") was a Mississippi River term: the second mark on the line that measured depth signified two fathoms, or twelve feet—safe depth for the steamboat. In 1857, at the age of twenty-one, he became a "cub" steamboat pilot.
So, you are saying that the Columbus statue:
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
Twain's is possessive as written. This would imply that Twain (presumably Mark) would have been interested in it. I'm having a bit of a hard time making this leap to Columbus just by virtue of the statue being 12 feet tall.
prospector
Choice wrote::
I think that refers to desert south only!
Ha! I know.
maltedfalcon
minor problem with your niantic theory is between 78 and 1999 it was not on public display.
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
Hi all. I’ve been quiet for a while, but thought I’d share some new info I’ve found recently on the SF hunt. Many of you are probably familiar with my theory that the casque is buried in Aquatic Park. If not, you can check it out here:
https://thesecretsfsolution.blogspot.com/
At any rate, I’m beginning to feel pretty confident that my solution has a strong possibility of being correct, and in a couple of weeks I am going to visit SF in an attempt to re-create some of the photos I believe Preiss gave to JPP to create the SF image. I’m doing this instead of digging because Aquatic Park is federal park land, and getting permission to probe/dig is very unlikely due to the 1906 Antiquities Act, which protects designated federal parks and lands from being disturbed. But it’s my hope that if I can document an extremely strong case, I might convince somebody within the Park Service’s management to pull some strings and make a recovery possible.
Anyway, I’ve been searching around the Maritime Museum for site confirmers from the image. I believe the outline of the Maritime Museum is in the image, as well as the Ghirardelli clock tower, the cable car turnaround, Angel Island, Alcatraz, the East speaker tower, and a plaque memorializing the first European ship to enter San Francisco Bay. I believe the speaker tower is the giant pole. And I think the plaque—which is embedded on the surface of a boulder about 15 feet away from the speaker—is the giant step.
From the boulder you can see just about everything I think is included in the hunt, which is interesting because this is what Preiss’ daughters have said is the case for the New York puzzle. If this is the casque site, I think it’s also notable that Preiss chose this particular plaque, as it would seem to be in keeping with his immigration theme. By the way, the first ship entering the San Francisco Bay was Spanish, making an interesting cross-country book-end to the St. Augustine puzzle…
So, here is something new: in 1978 the wreckage of the Niantic—a 19th century sailing ship—was discovered when the Mark Twain plaza was being excavated. Some materials from the wreckage were recovered. This recovery was done quickly due to the construction of the plaza. Among the objects recovered were a piece of the ship’s hull and rudder. They are now at the Maritime Museum, and were likely a new and highly publicized display when Preiss visited for his work on The Secret. I think these two images speak for themselves:
And if you start looking at a number of these images, you can see where JPP probably got a lot of his inspiration for the jagged edges in the background of the painting, as well as the "cityscape" in the upper left of the "bay" and the “bricks” under the window at the top of the rock:
IMO, It is very apparent that the preponderance of evidence points to the casque being buried at Aquatic Park, and I believe it is at the plaque/boulder specifically. I will get more exact photos to match the image when I am on-site, but here is the giant pole:
And here is what the giant step looks like from the pole to the boulder:
Notice that in the SF image, this probable match for the boulder is clearly called out in texture and shape from the other parts of the rock formation. Notice too that the face with the plaque is depicted as facing a different direction from the side of the rock facing the speaker—just as in real life:
If this indeed is the casque site, notice also that it is depicted similarly to the casque sites in the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles—near the center of the image, not surrounded by the "blue glow," and taking up about as much physical real estate in the image.
Also, it looks as if the rock might be in the image twice, called out by the break in the gold/black edge of the dress near the dragon's snout. Admittedly, this is not a great photo, but I'm pretty certain I'll be able to get a good photo match on=iste:
And finally, when I’m in SF I will test my theory that JPP inteneded the woman’s dress and the clock on the table to be both clocks and compasses (think the ying-yang symbol and duality). The mirroring of the woman’s pointing fingers and the pointing of the vines calls out 4 and 7 o’clock, and also tells us to look for something four from the east and seven from the west. I believe this is another reference to the Ghirardelli sign. I believe the woman’s arms are crossed to tell us that at the end of the puzzle we should be looking at this sign straight on, with its spelling forward, as opposed to when we started the puzzle behind the sign with its letters reversed. And I believe that if you are looking south from the dig site and you align yourself between the sign’s fourth letter from the east and the seventh letter from the west, it confirms you are in the right spot. Check out this photo, which a member of this board was good enough to share until I can get on site and take my own photos. Looks like the 4 and 7 ("r" and "a") might be correct in real life:
Thoughts? Am I wasting my time going to San Francisco?
its not there. but you never wasting your time going to sf...so much to do! i have a picture from 1980 of the maritime park, but not with me atm. ill post it for you (but its very clearly not there)....good luck! (as for your image matches i think many are quite weak).
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
Hi all.
I
’ve been quiet for a while, but thought
I
’d share some new info
I
’ve found recently on the SF hunt. Many
of
you are probably familiar with my theory that the casque is buried in Aquatic Park. If not, you can check it out here:
https://thesecretsfsolution.blogspot.com/
At any rate,
I
’m beginning to feel pretty confident that my solution has a strong possibility
of
being correct, and in a couple
of
weeks
I
am going to visit SF in an attempt to re-create some
of
the photos
I
believe Preiss gave to JPP to create the SF image.
I
’m doing this instead
of
digging because Aquatic Park is federal park land, and getting permission to probe/dig is very unlikely due to the 1906 Antiquities Act, which protects designated federal parks and lands from being disturbed. But it’s my hope that if
I
can document an extremely strong case,
I
might convince somebody within the Park Service’s management to pull some strings and make a recovery possible.
Anyway,
I
’ve been searching around the Maritime Museum for site confirmers from the image.
I
believe the outline
of
the Maritime Museum is in the image, as well as the Ghirardelli clock tower, the cable car turnaround, Angel Island, Alcatraz, the East speaker tower, and a plaque memorializing the first European ship to enter San Francisco Bay.
I
believe the speaker tower is the giant pole. And
I
think the plaque—which is embedded on the surface
of
a boulder about 15 feet away from the speaker—is the giant step.
From the boulder you can see just about everything
I
think is included in the hunt, which is interesting because this is what Preiss’ daughters have said is the case for the New York puzzle. If this is the casque site,
I
think it’s also notable that Preiss chose this particular plaque, as it would seem to be in keeping with his immigration theme. By the way, the first ship entering the San Francisco Bay was Spanish, making an interesting cross-country book-end to the St. Augustine puzzle…
So, here is something new: in 1978 the wreckage
of
the Niantic—a 19th century sailing ship—was discovered when the Mark Twain plaza was being excavated. Some materials from the wreckage were recovered. This recovery was done quickly due to the construction
of
the plaza. Among the objects recovered were a piece
of
the ship’s hull and rudder. They are now at the Maritime Museum, and were likely a new and highly publicized display when Preiss visited for his work on The Secret.
I
think these two images speak for themselves:
And if you start looking at a number
of
these images, you can see where JPP probably got a lot
of
his inspiration for the jagged edges in the background
of
the painting, as well as the "cityscape" in the upper left
of
the "bay" and the “bricks” under the window at the top
of
the rock:
IMO, It is very apparent that the preponderance
of
evidence points to the casque being buried at Aquatic Park, and
I
believe it is at the plaque/boulder specifically.
I
will get more exact photos to match the image when
I
am on-site, but here is the giant pole:
And here is what the giant step looks like from the pole to the boulder:
Notice that in the SF image, this probable match for the boulder is clearly called out in texture and shape from the other parts
of
the rock formation. Notice too that the face with the plaque is depicted as facing a different direction from the side
of
the rock facing the speaker—just as in real life:
If this indeed is the casque site, notice also that it is depicted similarly to the casque sites in the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles—near the center
of
the image, not surrounded by the "blue glow," and taking up about as much physical real estate in the image.
Also, it looks as if the rock might be in the image twice, called out by the break in the gold/black edge
of
the dress near the dragon's snout. Admittedly, this is not a great photo, but
I
'm pretty certain
I
'll be able to get a good photo match on=iste:
And finally, when
I
’m in SF
I
will test my theory that JPP inteneded the woman’s dress and the clock on the table to be both clocks and compasses (think the ying-yang symbol and duality). The mirroring
of
the woman’s pointing fingers and the pointing
of
the vines calls out 4 and 7 o’clock, and also tells us to look for something four from the east and seven from the west.
I
believe this is another reference to the Ghirardelli sign.
I
believe the woman’s arms are crossed to tell us that at the end
of
the puzzle we should be looking at this sign straight on, with its spelling forward, as opposed to when we started the puzzle behind the sign with its letters reversed. And
I
believe that if you are looking south from the dig site and you align yourself between the sign’s fourth letter from the east and the seventh letter from the west, it confirms you are in the right spot. Check out this photo, which a member
of
this board was good enough to share until
I
can get on site and take my own photos. Looks like the 4 and 7 ("r" and "a") might be correct in real life:
Thoughts? Am
I
wasting my time going to San Francisco?
its not there. but you never wasting your time going to sf...so much to do!
i
have a picture from 1980
of
the maritime park, but not with me atm. ill post it for you (but its very clearly not there)....good luck! (as for your image matches
i
think many are quite weak).
Choice
Problem with this puzzle is it's sooo vague that you could come up with dozens of logical solutions.
Take the Coit tower for example; you can interpret the clock on the table with it's shadow as a sundial. The roundabout as the dial with the tower or Columbus statue as the gnomon. Then the time on the clock would be noon casting straight shadow towards the red X.
The clock also could be the elevator dial of the tower pointing to the top. Blue jeannie lamp bay map also present. Spiral staircase also present.
As to Mark Twain's attention connection to Columbus, Twain loved piloting and Columbus is arguably the most famous boat pilot.
Frane of the painting:
Choice
Problem with this puzzle is it's sooo vague that you could come up with dozens
of
logical solutions.
Take the Coit tower for example; you can interpret the clock on the table with it's shadow as a sundial. The roundabout as the dial with the tower or Columbus statue as the gnomon. Then the time on the clock would be noon casting straight shadow towards the red X.
The clock also could be the elevator dial
of
the tower pointing to the top. Blue jeannie lamp bay map also present. Spiral staircase also present.
As to Mark Twain's attention connection to Columbus, Twain loved piloting and Columbus is arguably the most famous boat pilot.
Frane
of
the painting:
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
I'm impressed, surprisingly impressed,
with the wrong verse, wrong interpretation on practically everything, and you don't even know how to pick out the things that matters in the image
yet you came up with the correct location in order.
wow, I'm speechless at the moment....
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Dragon's Gate ---> Columbus ---> Lombard ---> Pioneer
I
'm impressed, surprisingly impressed,
with the wrong verse, wrong interpretation on practically everything, and you don't even know how to pick out the things that matters in the image
yet you came up with the correct location in order.
wow,
I
'm speechless at the moment....
Choice
Oh yes, another invaluable comment.
Shouldn't you be digging another hole at the zoo?
I
hear the air smells very sweet there around this time
of
the year.
Choice
Oh yes, another invaluable comment.
Shouldn't you be digging another hole at the zoo? I hear the air smells very sweet there around this time of the year.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Ok, where was it?
storage and then being 'curated' - a fancy word for preserving and then setting it up for display. it would have needed to be stabilized and then preserved. so it probably spent quite a lot of time in a tank filled with chemicals.
I have no idea where that was done. but the niantic display was put in in 99
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
Ok, where was it?
storage and then being 'curated' - a fancy word for preserving and then setting it up for display. it would have needed to be stabilized and then preserved. so it probably spent quite a lot
of
time in a tank filled with chemicals.
I
have no idea where that was done. but the niantic display was put in in 99
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Well according to the NPS:
On exhibit this fall in the museum building at the foot of Polk Street will be the painting, together with a detailed diorama of the ship on the Gold Rush waterfront of 1849,
and her actual stern and rudder — which this museum recovered in 1978
when, as the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper put it, “A Gold Rush Ship Is Dug Up Downtown.”
So they had it in 1978 somewhere on site, and it really looks like Preiss had access to it.
https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyc ... inting.htm
While I agree that it was remotely possbile regarding the timeline, this seems like a very vague clue that many would have no idea about, especially given the short time line. I have to agree with MF.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Well according to the NPS:
On exhibit this fall in the museum building at the foot
of
Polk Street will be the painting, together with a detailed diorama
of
the ship on the Gold Rush waterfront
of
1849,
and her actual stern and rudder — which this museum recovered in 1978
when, as the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper put it, “A Gold Rush Ship Is Dug Up Downtown.”
So they had it in 1978 somewhere on site, and it really looks like Preiss had access to it.
https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyc ... inting.htm
While
I
agree that it was remotely possbile regarding the timeline, this seems like a very vague clue that many would have no idea about, especially given the short time line.
I
have to agree with MF.
Choice
Also hard to base all this on a little model
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
[/i]
So they had it in 1978 somewhere on site, and it really looks like Preiss had access to it.
I seriously don't think that for the first several years out of the ground, it looked anything like the presentable relic you see in the museum now
For instance the Hunley was made of metal not wood and it was pulled out of the ocean and it was immediately put into a tank of water where it was treated for 7 years.
The vasa when it was recovered had to be constantly irrigated to keep it from drying out.
the niantic was excavated from mud it would have had the same problems.
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
[/
i
]
So they had it in 1978 somewhere on site, and it really looks like Preiss had access to it.
I
seriously don't think that for the first several years out
of
the ground, it looked anything like the presentable relic you see in the museum now
For instance the Hunley was made
of
metal not wood and it was pulled out
of
the ocean and it was immediately put into a tank
of
water where it was treated for 7 years.
The vasa when it was recovered had to be constantly irrigated to keep it from drying out.
the niantic was excavated from mud it would have had the same problems.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Oh yes, another invaluable comment.
Shouldn't you be digging another hole at the zoo?
I
hear the air smells very sweet there around this time
of
the year.
huh? me? digging hole at the zoo???
my first dig was far far away from the zoo, and
I
am still waiting on my second dig,
I
got my permitted reference number from SFRP already, but the guy
I
hired is still waiting for his C-27....
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Oh yes, another invaluable comment.
Shouldn't you be digging another hole at the zoo? I hear the air smells very sweet there around this time of the year.
huh? me? digging hole at the zoo???
my first dig was far far away from the zoo, and I am still waiting on my second dig, I got my permitted reference number from SFRP already, but the guy I hired is still waiting for his C-27....
MrBackstop
Durian, great info and I like the image matches...lots of solid possibilites here. Hopefully when you visit you will be able to come up with even more solid info when you have boots on the ground. A whole different world pops up into your face when you are actually on the grounds you search. Best of luck.
MrBackstop
Durian, great info and
I
like the image matches...lots
of
solid possibilites here. Hopefully when you visit you will be able to come up with even more solid info when you have boots on the ground. A whole different world pops up into your face when you are actually on the grounds you search. Best
of
luck.
Choice
Durian, you proposed this some 4 month ago. A simple link would've sufficed.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2196
gManTexas
Hey, do the cable cars run on different lines at all? I'm looking at cable car No. 6 (from the time on the clock) and I see an image of it on Hyde Street on the Powell & Market line. Would the other lines also have a car No. 6? Does it even matter?
gManTexas
Hey, do the cable cars run on different lines at all?
I
'm looking at cable car No. 6 (from the time on the clock) and
I
see an image
of
it on Hyde Street on the Powell & Market line. Would the other lines also have a car No. 6? Does it even matter?
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
Hey, do the cable cars run on different lines at all? I'm looking at cable car No. 6 (from the time on the clock) and I see an image of it on Hyde Street on the Powell & Market line. Would the other lines also have a car No. 6? Does it even matter?
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types of cars
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
Hey, do the cable cars run on different lines at all?
I
'm looking at cable car No. 6 (from the time on the clock) and
I
see an image
of
it on Hyde Street on the Powell & Market line. Would the other lines also have a car No. 6? Does it even matter?
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types
of
cars
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types of cars
So does only the Powell & Market line have a car number 6? Can we take this to be a clue? Is that particular line important, e.g. "Running north, but first across".
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types
of
cars
So does only the Powell & Market line have a car number 6? Can we take this to be a clue? Is that particular line important, e.g. "Running north, but first across".
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types of cars
Were the cars even running when BP visited? I know they shut the cars down for a year or more around that time to replace practically everything.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
2 different cable car lines - 2 different types
of
cars
Were the cars even running when BP visited?
I
know they shut the cars down for a year or more around that time to replace practically everything.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
So does only the Powell & Market line have a car number 6? Can we take this to be a clue? Is that particular line important, e.g. "Running north, but first across".
bbi
Choice wrote::
Were the cars even running when BP visited?
I
know they shut the cars down for a year or more around that time to replace practically everything.
They were closed for updates from around 82 to around 84 (Pretty much the day the books release). So yes, they would have been running at the time (1981) but the entire turntable was altered at the Aquatic Park. However,
I
don't think that would have impacted anything in regards to the rest
of
the solve if it was at the Aquatic Park . A few months ago
I
came up with a theory based on the cable car running north to hyde st. pier and the Aquatic Park.
I
believe that walking around this park you can match quite a few
of
the icons around the dragon which seem to lead to a certain point in the park. However,
I
applied for a permit and there is a strict no dig policy. Anyway, put together a walkthrough if anyone would like watch it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZTPqi ... sp=sharing
bbi
Choice wrote::
Were the cars even running when BP visited? I know they shut the cars down for a year or more around that time to replace practically everything.
They were closed for updates from around 82 to around 84 (Pretty much the day the books release). So yes, they would have been running at the time (1981) but the entire turntable was altered at the Aquatic Park. However, I don't think that would have impacted anything in regards to the rest of the solve if it was at the Aquatic Park . A few months ago I came up with a theory based on the cable car running north to hyde st. pier and the Aquatic Park. I believe that walking around this park you can match quite a few of the icons around the dragon which seem to lead to a certain point in the park. However, I applied for a permit and there is a strict no dig policy. Anyway, put together a walkthrough if anyone would like watch it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZTPqi ... sp=sharing
Choice
Most convoluted one yet?
BTW
By 1979, the cable car system had become unsafe, and it needed to be closed for seven months for urgently needed repairs. A subsequent engineering evaluation concluded that it needed comprehensive rebuilding at a cost
of
$60 million. Mayor Dianne Feinstein took charge
of
the effort, and helped win federal funding for the bulk
of
the rebuilding job. In 1982 the cable car system was closed again for a complete rebuild. This involved the complete replacement
of
69 city blocks' worth
of
tracks and cable channels, the complete rebuilding
of
the car barn and powerhouse within the original outer brick walls, new propulsion equipment, and the repair or rebuild
of
37 cable cars. The system reopened on June 21, 1984, in time to benefit from the publicity that accompanied San Francisco's hosting
of
that year's Democratic National Convention.
Courtesy Wikipedia
Choice
Most convoluted one yet?
BTW
By 1979, the cable car system had become unsafe, and it needed to be closed for seven months for urgently needed repairs. A subsequent engineering evaluation concluded that it needed comprehensive rebuilding at a cost of $60 million. Mayor Dianne Feinstein took charge of the effort, and helped win federal funding for the bulk of the rebuilding job. In 1982 the cable car system was closed again for a complete rebuild. This involved the complete replacement of 69 city blocks' worth of tracks and cable channels, the complete rebuilding of the car barn and powerhouse within the original outer brick walls, new propulsion equipment, and the repair or rebuild of 37 cable cars. The system reopened on June 21, 1984, in time to benefit from the publicity that accompanied San Francisco's hosting of that year's Democratic National Convention.
Courtesy Wikipedia
Spiritr
cable car....there's no cable car in image 1....
well, anyways,
big LIKE to the google earth video solve
much better than reading big long sci-fi friction. CLEVER!
gManTexas
bbi wrote::
They were closed for updates from around 82 to around 84 (Pretty much the day the books release). So yes, they would have been running at the time (1981) but the entire turntable was altered at the Aquatic Park. However, I don't think that would have impacted anything in regards to the rest of the solve if it was at the Aquatic Park . A few months ago I came up with a theory based on the cable car running north to hyde st. pier and the Aquatic Park. I believe that walking around this park you can match quite a few of the icons around the dragon which seem to lead to a certain point in the park. However, I applied for a permit and there is a strict no dig policy. Anyway, put together a walkthrough if anyone would like watch it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZTPqi ... sp=sharing
That's a pretty cool use of technology.
gManTexas
bbi wrote::
They were closed for updates from around 82 to around 84 (Pretty much the day the books release). So yes, they would have been running at the time (1981) but the entire turntable was altered at the Aquatic Park. However,
I
don't think that would have impacted anything in regards to the rest
of
the solve if it was at the Aquatic Park . A few months ago
I
came up with a theory based on the cable car running north to hyde st. pier and the Aquatic Park.
I
believe that walking around this park you can match quite a few
of
the icons around the dragon which seem to lead to a certain point in the park. However,
I
applied for a permit and there is a strict no dig policy. Anyway, put together a walkthrough if anyone would like watch it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZTPqi ... sp=sharing
That's a pretty cool use
of
technology.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
there's no cable car in image 1....
Really brother, you're worse than Josh. Bring something to the table or learn from Josh and scram.
bbi
Spiritr wrote::
I'm impressed, surprisingly impressed,
with the wrong verse, wrong interpretation on practically everything, and you don't even know how to pick out the things that matters in the image
yet you came up with the correct location in order.
wow, I'm speechless at the moment....
So...What's the correct verse and the correct interpretation? Sorry in advance if I missed something and you have already stated the correct verse and interpretation.
bbi
Spiritr wrote::
I
'm impressed, surprisingly impressed,
with the wrong verse, wrong interpretation on practically everything, and you don't even know how to pick out the things that matters in the image
yet you came up with the correct location in order.
wow,
I
'm speechless at the moment....
So...What's the correct verse and the correct interpretation? Sorry in advance if
I
missed something and you have already stated the correct verse and interpretation.
Choice
Hey BBI, regarding search light, why are the light spots half-moons? They may be moon windows.
bbi
Choice wrote::
Hey BBI, regarding search light, why are the light spots half-moons? They may be moon windows.
Hi, Sorry not quite sure what you mean in regard to "why are the light spots half-moons?"
Choice
bbi wrote::
Hi, Sorry not quite sure what you mean in regard to "why are the light spots half-moons?"
Search light shining in the sky searching for enemy snipes are normally round and full circle. In the painting the moons are half moons (half shiny and half dark).
bbi
Choice wrote::
Search light shining in the sky searching for enemy snipes are normally round and full circle. In the painting the moons are half moons (half shiny and half dark).
Ahh
I
see what you mean. Its nothing more than an theory really to explain the multiple moons in the sky at once.
I
.e. During WWII there could have been multiple search lights at various points, pointing at the sky.
bbi
Choice wrote::
Search light shining in the sky searching for enemy snipes are normally round and full circle. In the painting the moons are half moons (half shiny and half dark).
Ahh I see what you mean. Its nothing more than an theory really to explain the multiple moons in the sky at once. I.e. During WWII there could have been multiple search lights at various points, pointing at the sky.
Choice
You put a lot of effort into it and that's commendable. A+
There should be a feedback system in this forum! If you don't keep a minimum contribution score you get automatically dumped. (looking at you spiritr!)
Choice
You put a lot
of
effort into it and that's commendable. A+
There should be a feedback system in this forum! If you don't keep a minimum contribution score you get automatically dumped. (looking at you spiritr!)
gManTexas
Guys,
I am aware that the cable cars were under repair during the time that the book was released. However, even if they were not in service, cable cars were such a distinct feature for San Fransisco, it is hard to imagine that they do not play into the puzzle in some fashion. This holds true whether one believes there is an image of a cable car or not in Image 1.
gManTexas
Guys,
I
am aware that the cable cars were under repair during the time that the book was released. However, even if they were not in service, cable cars were such a distinct feature for San Fransisco, it is hard to imagine that they do not play into the puzzle in some fashion. This holds true whether one believes there is an image
of
a cable car or not in Image 1.
Kalessin
Cable car imagery that some people have noticed and proposed:
Head-on outline of a cable car in the post of the round table
Distinctive cable car bell on top of the watch on the table
The table top combined with the outline and the bell, and perhaps with the spiral stem nearby, could imply one of the turntables in the system
...and something I just noticed. The figure at the bottom of the dress panel, which looks like a circle made out of a backwards-facing and forwards-facing capital D, could also imply a cable car turntable, a circle with a track running through the middle.
Kalessin
Cable car imagery that some people have noticed and proposed:
Head-on outline
of
a cable car in the post
of
the round table
Distinctive cable car bell on top
of
the watch on the table
The table top combined with the outline and the bell, and perhaps with the spiral stem nearby, could imply one
of
the turntables in the system
...and something
I
just noticed. The figure at the bottom
of
the dress panel, which looks like a circle made out
of
a backwards-facing and forwards-facing capital D, could also imply a cable car turntable, a circle with a track running through the middle.
Choice
Kalessin wrote::
...and something I just noticed. The figure at the bottom of the dress panel, which looks like a circle made out of a backwards-facing and forwards-facing capital D, could also imply a cable car turntable, a circle with a track running through the middle.
Yes, bbi just covered all that in his video!
Choice
So back to Coit!
If we assume the dragon represents windy Lombard street, and it's nose pointing to a hill, Russian hill, then the tail end of Lombard street (pun intended) would be the Pioneer park. If you look closely you may even see X marking the spot!
Choice
bbi wrote::
So...What's the correct verse and the correct interpretation? Sorry in advance if I missed something and you have already stated the correct verse and interpretation.
The alternative verse is argued to be verse 10. Isle of B may be Belvedere isl., you know the one that looks like a horn over the rose.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2611
MrBackstop
Here's another idea for this part of the snake. One of many reasons I'm in National Maritime Park.
There is a Letter "g", letter "E" and letter "o" at the bottom with a Captial "H" on its side in this design. Geo is short for George and the "H" is for Hyde. George Hyde Street is the Eastern Border of the National Maritime Park.
JoshCornell
MrBackstop wrote::
Here's another idea for this part of the snake. One of many reasons I'm in National Maritime Park.
There is a Letter "g", letter "E" and letter "o" at the bottom with a Captial "H" on its side in this design. Geo is short for George and the "H" is for Hyde. George Hyde Street is the Eastern Border of the National Maritime Park.
already busted this...seeing as you point it out...ill explain...it actually says GEORGE...GEO going down and rge back up...and it relates to george harrison taking acid and visiting sf...but i like george hyde as a secondary reading cause he leads you to another "ace is high"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hyde_(RAF_officer
) (which would be the application of this clue to the ghiradelli/maritime park area).
Spiritr
GEORGE is 100% correct , but not George Harrison....
JoshCornell
whatever you say man...lol...
Spiritr
it's
George
Jacob Gershwin, and also
George
Hearst
JoshCornell
there are many georges...i can tell you with absolute certainty that both the ones ive mentioned are more primary references than gershwin, who has no ties to sf (though he does to la and ucla...which ive already noted is part of the puzzle, been to, and mapped out mind you)...ive also noted that hearst was part of the puzzle multiple times...but again...whereas you can attribute this to any george with any ties to sf whatsoever...george sterling being a wayyyyyyy better one than the ones youve mentioned...to solve it, you need to "use" the clue in CONTEXT!!!
so youre not "wrong" that they are referenced (it's effectively a reference to every referenced george)...but you are definitely not applying the clue correctly when it comes to the treasure hunt. but you do you. lol
JoshCornell
white boy may have been a late edition...preiss was a white boy...probably pointing to himself...fucking narcissist.
MrBackstop
Yes Josh, you busted it in your solve which hasn't worked out so far. Let me ask you this, and anyone else...What do you have the other part of the snake's body meaning? What are your solves for the "6" and the "S"?
Choice
Children are fighting again. Need a hall monitor.
JoshCornell
MrBackstop wrote::
Yes Josh, you busted it in your solve which hasn't worked out so far. Let me ask you this, and anyone else...What do you have the other part of the snake's body meaning? What are your solves for the "6" and the "S"?
what s? like the middle section?
i have explanations for both if so
Choice
Dang, Josh, buddy, how old are you?13?
Scrappy929
Images below are directly from the book and not a copy of a copy of a copy...
Using color filters to aid in seeing certain things more clearly, I found 2 possible clues below.
The number 13 seen just to the right and below the barred window in the image.
Inverted the image and viewed using inverted grey scale. Noticed our Roman numeral VI may not be a Roman numeral. Notice the left side of the “V” doesn’t seem to be there. That left side of the “V” definitely doesn’t have the same bold strokes. The bold look of the number 71 becomes very prominent.
It seems to me that something is written directly above and below our barred window. Haven’t quite been able to confirm though. Just looks as though there is since those marks stand out.
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
Images below are directly from the book and not a copy of a copy of a copy...
It is a copy. A copy of a digital picture is the same no matter how many times you copied unlike analog photo-copy.
The fact that you are altering it by digital filter means you are again subject to app interpretation.
Use a 5X magnifying glass.
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
It is a copy. A copy of a digital picture is the same no matter how many times you copied unlike analog photo-copy.
The fact that you are altering it by digital filter means you are again subject to app interpretation.
Use a 5X magnifying glass.
Here we go... Always has to be one. Ok... You are way off and missed the point completely. Point was that I used the image DIRECTLY from the book not a copy of a copy of a copy; digital or otherwise. It is NOT a copy of a digital picture. It IS a DIRECT digital copy from the book. I don’t think I needed you to explain that to me nor did I ask you to. Your comment is assuming I have no clue what a copy is... Really!? The fact that this was the only thing you had to say is yet just another example of the useless comments that clog up these threads. The whole world could have went without that useless comment. Pretty sure 99.9% of the general population would have understood what I said without having to chime in.
Magnifying glass... smh. Where did I say I zoomed in?
Color... Filter...
You use your methods, i’ll use mine.
Please refrain from further useless comments and actually write something useful that progresses this puzzle. Thank you.
Choice
You're seeing ghosts. Call the ghost whisperer. Hostile SOB!
Scrappy929
Goldengate wrote::
re: filters and photoshop, etc...
Just remember: Small book. 1982.
I'm not saying the ability to zoom on a 2018 high res retina screen won't help, but the Chicago guys found the casque without any of that and I don't think the Cleveland fellas needed any of that either -- the needed clues were able to be seen by the naked eye, though I'm sure many in 82 poured over the pages with a magnifying glass!
Anyway, food for thought.
You are correct and I agree with you on those points. However, these puzzles were not created equally. Photoshop / color filters are just another tool to aid in trying to solve the puzzles just as we use social media, the internet, & GPR. We should use all tools available to aid in solving these. It is not the tools that may cause problems, but HOW they are used and interpreted. Some may use them and some might not. Comes down to personal choice. After 36 years and only 2 having been solved, I would say something new has to be tried, whatever that may be.
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.” Henry Ford
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
You're seeing ghosts. Call the ghost whisperer. Hostile SOB!
Far from hostile. Again... you are clueless to word interpretation. It’s the voices in your head that are yelling. Ghost whisperer... SoB... Nice comeback! Lmao! Thank you for proving my point! And I’m the hostile one. Ok... Maybe use your magnifying glass to help you better see the words, or better yet... actually find a useful clue... literally and figuratively.
Choice
Refrain from further useless comments and actually write something useful that progresses this puzzle. Reptilian brain
Scrappy929
Durian wrote::
Another good image match, but which do you think is better?
I’ve tried to use the second one for that match. The top one I matched to the Wharf area.
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
Refrain from further useless comments and actually write something useful that progresses this puzzle. Reptilian brain
Name calling... must be a child. Not educated enough to engage in adult conversations with any sort of intelligence.
Choice
Not name calling but behavioral observations. Didn't need magnifying glass for them.
erexere
I like some of the filtered versions of the paintings. I dont think its required, though any help to our tired out eye muscles is welcomed.
Choice
I see resemblances between the rock/gate and the burnt down buildings in Alcatraz.
Choice
IMO Pioneer has the following characteristics:
• It matches Giant pole clue
• It satisfies counter-clockwise running clock (flow of the traffic)
• The whole area can act as a giant sundial
• The location works with both #7 and #10 verses
• Matches In the shadow Of the grey giant
• In the Image 1 the dig location is marked with an outlined 3D X.
• Missing: Flashing neon light
Rviewer1
Scrappy929 wrote::
Images below are directly from the book and not a copy of a copy of a copy...
Using color filters to aid in seeing certain things more clearly, I found 2 possible clues below.
The number 13 seen just to the right and below the barred window in the image.
Inverted the image and viewed using inverted grey scale. Noticed our Roman numeral VI may not be a Roman numeral. Notice the left side of the “V” doesn’t seem to be there. That left side of the “V” definitely doesn’t have the same bold strokes. The bold look of the number 71 becomes very prominent.
It seems to me that something is written directly above and below our barred window. Haven’t quite been able to confirm though. Just looks as though there is since those marks stand out.
Hey Scrappy,
Has anyone commented that the stone window/wall sits on a cement pedestal. Not unlike the seaman’s monument at the LOH?
Scrappy929
Rviewer1 wrote::
Hey Scrappy,
Has anyone commented that the stone window/wall sits on a cement pedestal. Not unlike the seaman’s monument at the LOH?
I am not sure. Are you referring to just the barred window or the structure in which it is mounted that is sitting on a pedestal?
I just noticed that the top horizontal bar in the barred window is shown in front of the vertical bars while the lower horizontal bar is shown behind the vertical bars.
Rviewer1
Scrappy929 wrote::
I am not sure. Are you referring to just the barred window or the structure in which it is mounted that is sitting on a pedestal?
I just noticed that the top horizontal bar in the barred window is shown in front of the vertical bars while the lower horizontal bar is shown behind the vertical bars.
Yes I see what you mean about the lower horizontal bar being behind the vertical bars.
I was talking about the pedestal. It reminds me of two objects. The first is a cement sundial and the second is an upside down seaman’s monument, although I think the seaman’s monument is a stretch. Has anyone determined what that pedestal maybe?
MrBackstop
JoshCornell wrote::
what s? like the middle section?
i have explanations for both if so
Yes, exactly...the large #6 and the large "S" in the snake body.? I am curious as to members' thoughts on these two clues.
Choice
I can even see the slanted X in your out of focus picture. I can't explain why you can't.
I have 2 different photos of the original book, one uploaded to this forum recently. None from me.
Here are the two segments. Both clearly show the slanted X, one better than other.
Choice
I have no interest in probing and digging. I'm here to share my findings and not seeking notoriety.
Location is not based on the X on the map alone. Clues point one to the location. Noon on the sundial is one.
catherwood
Choice wrote::
I can even see the slanted X in your out of focus picture. I can't explain why you can't.
I have 2 different photos of the original book, one uploaded to this forum recently. None from me.
Here are the two segments. Both clearly show the slanted X, one better than other. {img}
I also do not see any X in these images. At most I see some waves. I think this is a case of "jesus on a tortilla" or "that face on the closet door" where once you see the illusion of a face in a random texture, you can no longer unsee it or be convinced that it really wasn't there to begin with. Sorry.
Choice
Sorry about the peppering. Not my intent. My last post about this.
maltedfalcon
[quote="Choice"]Sorry about the peppering. Not my intent. My last post about this.
look more like the symbol for pi...
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
or Chinese six
六
Liù
Choice
I think Josh is already there... Is that him?!
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
All in the size of half the "E" of the word "Liberty" on a dime.
It's also conceivable that a few "easter eggs" were intentionally inserted to keep it fun. Afterall the original painting is much larger than the print.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
look more like the symbol for pi...
or Chinese six 六 Liù
Also Japanese six 六 , roku
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
... would it not stand to reason that he'd likewise assure the "X" you believe marks the treasure spot in Image One would be legible?
... are you suggesting there are easter eggs within the easter eggs?
Anyway, I'll get my boot ready for cooking in the event someone is hiking up to Coit to dig up your solution
On the contrary, he would've made sure X wouldn't be so obviously visible and easily discovered or there wouldn't be a puzzle. Only after your clues point to the general area then you may notice it by looking closely.
Egg within egg? Like the Russian nesting dolls?! Yes! But more like little messages in some obscure corners. Like fortune cookie?
I'll bring Tabasco sauce.
Goonie68
Goldengate wrote::
Nope, that's not Josh Cornell-Hole.
Tip of the hat to Goonie for capturing this rare shot of Josh in the wild as he "crushed" the San Francisco puzzle back in February.
Lookit the fuzzy little guy! He's so excited that he solved the whole puzzle in just a couple weeks and all his trolling was about to pay off!
I wonder how that dig turned out for him...
Thanks for the laugh I needed that today!!!
JoshCornell
wow haha. cant even see the guys replies and he's STILL trolling me (and im somehow trolling...right...)...if only goldengate was as obsessed with the treasure hunt as he is me, then maybe he'd actually make progress...lol...
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
There a wide gulf between something not "obviously visible" and the hard reality that the image you're referencing is half the size of an "E" on a dime and looks different from scan to scan.
Anyway... while I don't agree with your theory, I sincerely respect the work you're putting in -- it's honest and thought out. We just approach the puzzle with different philosophies and will have to agree to disagree.
We do agree on one thing: Tabasco pairs wonderfully with boot.
I have to agree with GG here. At first I was zooming and seeing things that may have been hidden in the larger paintings. Then I picked up a copy of the reprint in Barnes & Noble and it really is a small book. I think it would have difficult to spot extremely small features when the book came out.
Also, I believe that JJP claimed that some of the Images were supposed to have special features that just didn't pan out when the book went to print.
Choice
Well, i do appreciate you and a good constructive criticism. Linda S of wiki, most of us rejects from that forum know her well, is a great source of historical information. She has access to all kinds of city plans and most importantly dates of renovations. She's planning a visit to Coit late October. Maybe she can inspect the area for clues. Meanwhile here's a replacement plaque that may satisfy some connection to Mark Twain.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I obviously fall into the "simple solution" camp -- that while these puzzles are incredibly tough, the answers are staring us in the face.... just like they were in Chicago and Cleveland...
It is simple and staring us in the face. 3 points:
1. Dragon is Lombard st.
2. It's nose (top of the windy hill) is Hyde st.
3. That makes it's end of the tail Pioneer park.
No convoluted Google earth video needed.
Choice
If you accept the Verse 10 then it even tells you how many steps to take from where Columbus' right hand points to the narrow walkway.
MERLIN
Mark Twain had a famous quote about Columbus.....Something about 2 skulls in Havana.
Choice
I think if I found the google map in the painting you would still have doubt.
Choice
I'm sure you've seen the dragon dance during chinese new year. It's all about twisting and turning. Perfectly describes Lombard. It shouldn't look like Lombard street's map to represent it.
Choice
Oookay, Lombard is a one way street and on the bottom of it is a do not enter sign like the 2 half circles.
Scrappy929
Vermont St, between 20th St & 22nd St. It's just as curvy as Lombard.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
I think if I found the google map in the painting you would still have doubt.
someone on fb posted the block pattern of a whole area being portrayed in the squares of part of the dragon...very convincingly too...
Choice
Scrappy929 wrote::
Vermont St, between 20th St & 22nd St. It's just as curvy as Lombard.
Is it a famous iconic landmark?
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0276205d-e ... 2ac076e1b9
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
Is it a famous iconic landmark?
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0276205d-e ... 2ac076e1b9
Dude, you are such a joke. Your problem is you don't get that you don't get it. We can't help the helpless.
The dragon is Lombard Street because it is crooked... That was your point. Vermont St is crooked too dumbass!
You saying Lombard street is an iconic landmark? I forgot we needed two in each image. I guess Lombard is also in the middle of GGP according to you. Hey look, there is an arch in a building on Alcatraz! That must be a match to our image. OMG you are so clueless. And with the "X"... smh
Again, showing your age...
Mister EZ
catherwood wrote::
I think this is a case of "jesus on a tortilla". Sorry.
https://youtu.be/BJjv9A0oNQg
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I get Lombard as a possible city indicator and I get how if you go really far all the way down the street you can get to Coit... I get all that. And I dig the not enter signs as that symbol.
I really get and respect everything you're saying... and honestly you've constructed one of the better Coit theories I've read.
Just saying maybe something nearly the size of a pin head is perhaps not a concrete visual indicator of the dig spot.
If the X was the only thing I had to go with I wouldn't have even bothered posting.
It's the counter-clockwise running clock on her robe.
It's the end of Lombard st loop.
It's the sundial noon pointer.
If you dig verse 10 and the grey giant then you have whole bunch of more clues'
Like the Columbus hand pointing to the pathway.
North to isle of B (Belvedere?)
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I get Lombard as a possible city indicator and I get how if you go really far all the way down the street you can get to Coit... I get all that. And I dig the not enter signs as that symbol.
I really get and respect everything you're saying... and honestly you've constructed one of the better Coit theories I've read.
Just saying maybe something nearly the size of a pin head is perhaps not a concrete visual indicator of the dig spot.
If the X was the only thing I had to go with I wouldn't have even bothered posting.
It's the
counter
-
clockwise
running
clock on her robe.
It's the end of Lombard st loop.
It's the sundial noon pointer.
If you dig verse 10 and the grey giant then you have whole bunch of more clues'
Like the Columbus hand pointing to the pathway.
North to isle of B (Belvedere?)
Choice
Expected more contribution EZ
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
If the X was the only thing I had to go with I wouldn't have even bothered posting.
It's the counter-clockwise running clock on her robe.
It's the end of Lombard st loop.
It's the sundial noon pointer.
If you dig verse 10 and the grey giant then you have whole bunch of more clues'
Like the Columbus hand pointing to the pathway.
North to isle of B (Belvedere?)
I think at a certain point, especially here where everyone is a skeptic, you just have to go dig. Prove to yourself right or wrong. If you can't dig, you have to either find someone willing or just post a theory and let it percolate.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
If the X was the only thing I had to go with I wouldn't have even bothered posting.
It's the
counter
-
clockwise
running
clock on her robe.
It's the end of Lombard st loop.
It's the sundial noon pointer.
If you dig verse 10 and the grey giant then you have whole bunch of more clues'
Like the Columbus hand pointing to the pathway.
North to isle of B (Belvedere?)
I think at a certain point, especially here where everyone is a skeptic, you just have to go dig. Prove to yourself right or wrong. If you can't dig, you have to either find someone willing or just post a theory and let it percolate.
Choice
[quote="Scrappy929"][/quote]
Dude! Take your Prozac already.
Menopausal men, they are the worst. Old crank!
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
I think at a certain point, especially here where everyone is a skeptic, you just have to go dig. Prove to yourself right or wrong. If you can't dig, you have to either find someone willing or just post a theory and let it percolate.
In total agreement Tex. Just trying to contribute. Use the info as you many.
Choice
Not a big fan of Facebook. Never signed-up probably never will.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Expected more contribution EZ
Choice wrote::
are
Dude! Take your Prozac already.
Menopausal men, they the worst. Old crank!
Lighten up....
Choice
I used to have a fake one a year or 2 ago (never had a real one) then they started to confirm accounts with phone number... I'm out.
Scrappy929
Choice wrote::
Dude! Take your Prozac already.
Menopausal men, they are the worst. Old crank!
LMAO! What’s wrong troll, you mad!? Prozac!? Menopausal? Old crank!? Haha! So original.
Still name calling I see. Man up. Learn how to debate and take criticism.
Choice
When you can bring something, anything to the table let me know Kavanaugh ...
You like beer... Boof much?!
Messing with you angry lil man. lighten up.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
Well if you won't dig and you won't join the FB group, you'll have to rely on this forum and hope Josh gets let back into the US someday and can dig for you.
It's probably all roots anyway
Scrappy929
Haha! All good Choice! Enjoy the banter. Think we’ve entertained the masses enough.
Looking for feedback from someone that has the original book to look at those 2 images I posted recently and confirm or deny what I saw with the 13 & 71.
Choice
.o0O(Get off my lawn!)
No, just kidding!
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Mark Twain had a famous quote about Columbus.....Something about 2 skulls in Havana.
Hey missed you Merlin!
Are you still pushing your IRA and Irish cathedral there?!
(Image 9 forum is pretty much dead, needs mouth to mouth)
Spiritr
Choice...
Surprisingly, you keep repeating "contribute", do you even know what that word mean?
Taunting those who tried to correct your wrongs, and nonstop
Uploading these random low quality scans of the image and
Photoshop your own fantasy into it?
Ironically you gain nothing but notoriety...
Despite the
Fact that all of your "contributions" were irrelevant,
Useless, and randomly broken pieces that you made up.
Clues are everywhere in the image, they connects, both the Verse and image, in whole
Kaleidoscoping the way you did is a complete waste of time and will result with nothing but illusions, not solutions.
Choice
Sooooo... The base of the statue was different at the time. The outline of her sleeves may have something to do with the base outline. Here's an old postcard.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
.
Shut up Meg.!
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
Choice...
Surprisingly, you keep repeating "contribute", do you even know what that word mean?
Taunting those who tried to correct your wrongs, and nonstop
Uploading these random low quality scans of the image and
Photoshop your own fantasy into it?
Ironically you gain nothing but notoriety...
Despite the
Fact that all of your "contributions" were irrelevant,
Useless, and randomly broken pieces that you made up.
Clues are everywhere in the image, they connects, both the Verse and image, in whole
Kaleidoscoping the way you did is a complete waste of time and will result with nothing but illusions, not solutions.
Heh...I see whacha did there.
And Merlin, here's the Twain quote...
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/224635-in-a-museum-in-havana-there-are-two-skulls-of
MERLIN
Thanks EZ......that's the one I was thinking of.
gManTexas
I think the feature you are pointing to looks like a bunny face, as in Bunny Meadow in GGP. Especially when we do not zoom in to 300X magnification.
Choice
fox wrote::
8)
another thought... could the table's pedestal in this P represent Coit Tower? We still have yet to decipher the table. I know it isnt the exact shape of Coit Tower
hxxp://www.magazinusa.com/images_st2/ca ... _tower.jpg
like the buildings located in the 2 "found" P's but.......
could it be something more like this?
hxxp://www.geoffreydrewmarketing.com/an ... nozzle.jpg
"The artists also claimed that the building was a mockery because they assumed (as do many today) that architects Brown and Howard had designed the monument in the shape of a fire hose nozzle in memory of Lillie Coit's fondness for the Fire Department, an intention that the architects consistently denied." found on history of CT
hxxp://www.coittower.org/history/histor ... tower.html
the stem on the rose atop the table seems to curl into the letter "C" for Coit also
Here's a post from 2006
Choice
Durian wrote::
I see a bird with wings and crests, but I can see your bunny as well gMan.
Thumbs up on the bird. Infact I proposed a line of 4+ perrots, the 1st one being well defined with long tail feather a while back but the idea was rejected quickly.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I see a bird with wings and crests, but I can see your bunny as well gMan.
I don't think you need 300x magnification to see these marks. I'm assuming this is about acutal size (maybe a little larger, what are the dimensions of the book?). The marks remain to appear very deliberate. These features are about the same size as features on the woman's face, and the entire piece I believe might be the San Carlos rock (the plaque, mortar, and jutting edge) occupy about the same amount of real estate as the clock/compass on the table:
I am starting to question whether the fine little details have much value in Image 1. We already know it is San Fransisco. I also suspect that we are all over-thinking this one. If there is any truth to the value of the gem being indicative of the complexity of the puzzle, this should be one of the easiest ones to solve.
I also suspect that having an illustration modeled after DaVinci's Virgin of the Rocks adds a bit of complexity to the overall image, which of course will let imaginations run wild.
Spiritr
Unknown:
truth to the value of the gem being indicative of the complexity of the puzzle
I was thinking the same thing, one tiny single goldish pearl compares to a blue color radiant cut diamond, the value gap is insanely huge.
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
I see a bird with wings and crests, but I can see your bunny as well gMan.
I don't think you need 300x magnification to see these marks. I'm assuming this is about acutal size (maybe a little larger, what are the dimensions of the book?). The marks remain to appear very deliberate. These features are about the same size as features on the woman's face, and the entire piece I believe might be the San Carlos rock (the plaque, mortar, and jutting edge) occupy about the same amount of real estate as the clock/compass on the table:
close...its a birdffalo
the crest is the bird heads beak, cover the beak, you have a buffalo
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Thumbs up on the bird. Infact I proposed a line of 4+ perrots, the 1st one being well defined with long tail feather a while back but the idea was rejected quickly.
there is a parrot (singular) right side of rocks diagonally down and left from doorway.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
there is a parrot (singular) right side of rocks diagonally down and left from doorway.
Is the red 1 picture of your parrot Josh?
I'm thinking of the line of many with yellow #s.
maltedfalcon
I just see El Cid
Choice
My hypothesis is that the lady in the painting is an amalgamation of statue of Columbus and a dove.
• Rock formations behind her form 2 large wings
• Her mouth looks like she’s saying “Cooo.. Cooo…!"
• Her shoulder-pads are similar to the pads on Columbus' statue
• Both wearing long robe
• Columbus wearing a large cross where her arms are crossed
• Outline of her right sleeve (or the pushed-up earth by dragon's nose) is similar to the old base of statue
There are many more similarities.
Columbus means dove.
I’ve mentioned most of these before.
All the rock formations may just be feathers and tail feathers.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
I just see El Cid
I see a bolder with a sea lion on it.
Are you saying that's a horse's ass?
And those may be maidens carrying the horse's ass. No wonder she's going "poooff..."
Spiritr
Durian wrote::
Regarding "The Virgin of the Rocks," wouldn't it be funny if that San Carlos plaque embedded in a rock does turn out to be the spot we're supposed to be looking for? We know there are puns and hints in the other puzzles, for example the choice of "Girl With a Pearl Earring" for the Chicago painting, getting us thinking about the Loop district (along with multiple rings and loops in the image). And obviously for SF, "The Rock."
“Girl With a Pearl Earring”??? for the Chicago painting???????
the oil canvas painting by Johannes Vermeer displays over at Mauritshuis, Netherland?
Choice
@Merlot,
This may satisfy Japanese translation of the verse.
At the base of the hill driving towards Coit (Lombard/Telegraph hill) is the inventor of radio, Marconi’s memorial.
Inscribed in Latin is "Fvlgvra praevertens vacvam vox permeat aethram.”
"Outstripping (faster than) the lightning, the voice races through the empty sky"
Reference in painting: Top left corner, often referred to as observatory or Palace of Fine Art.
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/g ... orial.html
https://tinyurl.com/y7mod6ro
gManTexas
This is good stuff Durian.
Spiritr
correct, that's the general idea
but the problem is the material, and the correlation elements.
How do you connect a Dutch painting in Netherland to the Blarney Castle in Ireland? and connects to Chicago?
How? By the color? the loop?
and...who is JPP?
Spiritr
Unknown:
You don't need to connect these things necessarily. They are separate thoughts...
I see
Rviewer1
Durian wrote::
JJP, my bad—I keep messing that up!
You don't need to connect these things necessarily. They are separate thoughts...
I think of the images as collages... Preiss took a bunch of photos, gave them to JJP, told JJP what he wanted emphasized, and then let him go to work.
JJP was assigned a task with parameters and goals that needed to be accomplished in order for the puzzles to work. So he used his art training and knowledge to weave a visual narrative—just like the writers who wrote the verses used words to create a written narrative. JJP incorporated imagery that would support the verses, imagery he was given, imagery that would support Preiss' desire to highlight immigration, and imagery out of his own head to give us visual clues for solving the puzzles...
In Chicago he wanted us to think Loop district, so he chose a painting to match (Girl with the Pearl Earring), and visuals (all the rings and loops in the image) to get us there.
It doesn't matter that the painter is Dutch—it's all about the clue. It doesn't matter that Blarney Castle isn't in Chicago, it's about the immigration reference. It doesn't matter that the water tower isn't a windmill, that came out of JJP's head to get us thinking windy city and Chicago. It doesn't matter Lincoln wasn't a gnome, he's there because he is a clue in one of the verses...
Also, I believe the immigration references are
extremely
important in these puzzles, and they are emphasized. I personally think there are multiple references to Angel Island in the SF puzzle, for example. Preiss wanted it that way. And JJP incorporated them where he could.
And the verses are supported by the imagery. If it's in the verses, then there's probably something in the image—real or out of JJP's imagination—to support the verse. In SF, I believe examples are the cable car bell (sounds from the sky), the compass pointing north (North Point St.), etc. And I believe JJP used his imagination to give us images to guide us through the puzzles ("Madonna of the Rocks"/Alcatraz, the moons/Ghirardelli sign letters, etc.)
Here is another area of interest in GGP that looks a little like your rock and plaque.
Here is a different view showing 1 of 2 rather large flag poles.
The lady in the image could be the Chinese goddess of the moon.
https://www.google.com/search?biw=375&bih=635&hl=en-US&ei=jBa5W4K-PPLQ9APvuYGwCQ&ins=false&q=the+chinese+goddess+of+the+moon&oq=the+chinese+goddess+of+the+&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.1.1.0i22i30j33i299l3.536688.563056..567499...5.0..4.322.10035.0j11j32j2......0....1.......3..0j41j46j0i71j46i67j0i67j46i131i67j46i131j0i131j41i70j46i13j0i13j0i13i30j33i22i29i30.pOjI-e6atNY
The Chinese celebrate the Mid-Autumn Moon Festival. I’m still not sure what the significance of the number of 11 moons is.
bbi
Durian wrote::
IMO, the moons are eleven because they are eleven glowing objects when you start the puzzle where the air smells sweet: under the eleven letters of the Ghirardelli sign (and behind it, hence the reversed "Gh"):
I agree also with this. You also have the offset barred window under the center moon in the image, which would fall roughly in the line of Alcatraz being offset from the Ghirardelli building.
Rviewer1
Durian wrote::
IMO, the moons are eleven because they are eleven glowing objects when you start the puzzle where the air smells sweet: under the eleven letters of the Ghirardelli sign (and behind it, hence the reversed "Gh"):
That is an interesting point. I’m working solutions down where you are, GGP and up at the LOH. MF has made a very strong case for the LOH. In my solution where you are my stone walls door and the air smells sweet is at GS then I move to the FW sign where there are 3 wooden high posts. I have since called into question whether the high posts are wooden. So Sutro tower is still in play as far as high posts.
MERLIN
Maybe the moons represent the round balls on top of these brick pillars - there are at least 8 other similar balls inside the garden and on top of SP's wall.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... isco-5.jpg
MERLIN
hxxp://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/ ... G_0718.jpg
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Is the red 1 picture of your parrot Josh?
I'm thinking of the line of many with yellow #s.
no its not in the big area, that is the birdffalo (whose significance i do know). im not entirely sure where the little square is but i dont see the parrot in it lol.
its diagonally down and RIGHT from doorway (at top of rocks in image) its mouth is open...its squawking. (i said left before, my bad)
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
its diagonally down and RIGHT from doorway (at top of rocks in image) its mouth is open...its squawking.
I think I found it. It kinda looks more like an eagle (or chicken!)
If you add the elongated body then it looks like the chrysler building gargoyles.
I wish we all could use a smaller image in our posts and remove the image link from our replies.
Choice
Durian wrote::
the clock/compass on the table:
It’s not a compass. It’s a clock; more accurately a sundial.
The rose is a play on verse 9’s wind-rose.
But here, it’s a wind as in winding a clock.
Note the stem of the rose is a winding spring.
Winding key present across her robe (combination of 3 circles and the square/triangle)
However shadowed clock points me towards a sundial.
Sundial can act as a compass of sort since it points to 12 noon, north.
Choice
The "W" has 2 sets of 2 thorns where top of "E" has 1 set. Their orientation to the round table is a match to GG and Bay bridges. So if the orientation of your compass is correct then it's pointing south.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
It’s not a compass. It’s a clock; more accurately a sundial.
Sundial can act as a compass of sort since it points to 12 noon, north.
So if the orientation of your compass is correct then it's pointing south.
You are a genius.
Choice
@Durian suggested it's pointing north to north point.
rexx
Durian wrote::
IMO, the moons are eleven because they are eleven glowing objects when you start the puzzle where the air smells sweet: under the eleven letters of the Ghirardelli sign (and behind it, hence the reversed "Gh"):
I think the lifeguard towers at the Maritime National Historic Park looks like the "A" in the robe. A little slanted.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-san-f ... 08983.html
Also, there are skylights in the park with little square windows similar to the squares in the robe. Google maps has some good images.
Choice
For the slow one among us: For a sundial to work properly it has to be lined up to the north. That's why most have wind-rose design on them. It uses characteristics of a clock and a compass. One correction though, if you're considering sundial in your solve then the shadow of the clock points to 6PM. This matters if you're using verse 10 and have to count steps.
Also the straight up/down hands on the clock is true position for sundial gnomon.
@Durian, Yes. The table top, the sundial face being the Pioneer park and the table leg, The Coit Tower as the gnomon.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2914
The Japanese version has a king with a crown associated to the verse.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
someone on fb posted the block pattern of a whole area being portrayed in the squares of part of the dragon...very convincingly too...
If someone can copy and post that FB page here would be cool.
MERLIN
The bell on top of the cable car in the pic is practically a dead ringer for the top of the clock on the table - image 1.
Kalessin
MERLIN wrote::
The bell ... dead ringer...
MERLIN
Kalessin wrote::
You're welcome.
maltedfalcon
Kalessin wrote::
I think it was a dead ringer (love that pun) when you found it , what 4-5 years ago?
Choice
By focusing on shiny little object (the bell) you guys lose focus on the bigger picture.
The table in totality should be viewed as one unit.
Here are the clues:
• Rose
• Clock wind spring.
• Directional rotation of the spiral stem
• Clock
• North/South position of the hands
• Shadow cast by the clock
• Circular table top
• Table leg post
Spinning motion of the spiral indicates to flip the table over so the leg is on top.
Combine all these and you get: Wind-rose, clock, round surface with a tower on top casting shadow.
It’s a sundial, a giant one.
MERLIN
Malted said we are looking for a horses ass.....I'm so confused!!!
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Malted said we are looking for a horses ass.....I'm so confused!!!
did you give up on Montreal?
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
did you give up on Montreal?
No - I still think V7 belongs in Montreal. I found you a park with a giant sundial in SF...
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb ... D3oECAoQCQ
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
No - I still think V7 belongs in Montreal. I found you a park with a giant sundial in SF...
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb ... D3oECAoQCQ
Looked at that already. too obscure. Like Coit better.
Across her robe, Lambda Iota Lambda, ΛIΛ, is Greek for LIL.
I mentioned crown on king's head, Coit has a crown on top, but you guys focused on the bell! (I should stop jiggling shiny objects!)
As the song goes:
I left my heart in San Francisco
High on a hill, it calls to me
Get it? Isle of B, I love B, Bennett's love song about SF.
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
No - I still think V7 belongs in Montreal. I found you a park with a giant sundial in SF...
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb ... D3oECAoQCQ
it's in Ingleside, one of the richest neighborhood in the city, because of the affordable house value, lots of Chinese lives there. It connects the immigration reference
*it's affordable to the Chinese
Choice
Yes by all means, go for it! Layout is right too.
https://tinyurl.com/ydef5wxc
Choice
However the leg of the table being a combination of a tower and a firehose nozzle points me to Coit.
Also flipping the table upside down orients the table correctly; E to the east side.
Also the graphics on top of the Coit elevator has many clues:
The blue genie lamp
Wind rose
Up/Down triangles
Bell shape on top
MrBackstop
So Choice you see the Coit Tower as the area for the dig spot?
I see the Coit Tower way in the Background of Image 1 to the right, under the little "moon" farthest right. This would indicate to me that the Coit Tower is off in the distance from the actual dig spot.
Choice
MrBackstop wrote::
So Choice you see the Coit Tower as the area for the dig spot?
I see the Coit Tower way in the Background of Image 1 to the right, under the little "moon" farthest right. This would indicate to me that the Coit Tower is off in the distance from the actual dig spot.
That looks to me more like the Transamerica pyramid. Notice a little protrusion near the top. I might have a pixelated image.
MrBackstop
Not even a little, that top is flat like Coit. Transamerica is a very prominent pyramid top.
Choice
I always thought the vertical rock formation with horse's ass on top to be the coit tower with a line of parrots on top of it.
Matching the vertical stripes
The horse's ass may be the representation of an observatory dome, Coit's observatory deck with a finger pointing on top. Or the sea lion on the bolder pointing to the direction of Fisherman's wharf where sea lions are. (I just like to type horse's ass)
Choice
I
always thought the vertical rock formation with horse's ass on top to be the coit tower with a line
of
parrots on top
of
it.
Matching the vertical stripes
The horse's ass may be the representation
of
an observatory dome, Coit's observatory deck with a finger pointing on top. Or the sea lion on the bolder pointing to the direction
of
Fisherman's wharf where sea lions are. (
I
just like to type horse's ass)
Spiritr
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor
of
Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead
of
a dome.
Spiritr
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor of Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead of a dome.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor of Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead of a dome.
My bad, I meant observation deck.
hxxp://www.lovetoeatandtravel.com/site/ ... n-deck.htm
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor
of
Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead
of
a dome.
My bad,
I
meant observation deck.
hxxp://www.lovetoeatandtravel.com/site/ ... n-deck.htm
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor
of
Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead
of
a dome.
So
I
looked into it and perhaps they had christmas tree during Dec. but not year around.
Here's a pic. from Dec 1970:
Here's a pic. from 1975:
Here's a pic. from 1982:
Here's a video from 1979 with Coit showing without tree:
https://vimeo.com/280201484
Another video from 1979, last few seconds shows the base
of
the Columbus statue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoxRDE3UZk
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
observatory deck? you mean the top/highest floor of Coit Tower where they used to have a huge Christmas Tree?
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip instead of a dome.
So I looked into it and perhaps they had christmas tree during Dec. but not year around.
Here's a pic. from Dec 1970:
Here's a pic. from 1975:
Here's a pic. from 1982:
Here's a video from 1979 with Coit showing without tree:
https://vimeo.com/280201484
Another video from 1979, last few seconds shows the base of the Columbus statue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoxRDE3UZk
Spiritr
I use the Christmas tree as a description of location to see if that's the "observatory deck" you're referring to, it's there every Nov to Dec.
Spiritr
I
use the Christmas tree as a description
of
location to see if that's the "observatory deck" you're referring to, it's there every Nov to Dec.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
I use the Christmas tree as a description of location to see if that's the "observatory deck" you're referring to, it's there every Nov to Dec.
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip
Why "still, it would be a triangular pointy tip"?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
I
use the Christmas tree as a description
of
location to see if that's the "observatory deck" you're referring to, it's there every Nov to Dec.
still, it would be a triangular pointy tip
Why "still, it would be a triangular pointy tip"?
Spiritr
this new phone doesn't have 3d touch anymore and it became very hard to copy and paste, that was a mistake, i did a edit already.
Spiritr
this new phone doesn't have 3d touch anymore and it became very hard to copy and paste, that was a mistake,
i
did a edit already.
Choice
Well that was a trip! I nearly got contact high.
Choice
Well that was a trip!
I
nearly got contact high.
Kalessin
maltedfalcon wrote::
I think it was a dead ringer (love that pun) when you found it , what 4-5 years ago?
I looked up file creation times for the photo clips I made: August 2016. Where did all that time go? The months just zip on by...
Kalessin
maltedfalcon wrote::
I
think it was a dead ringer (love that pun) when you found it , what 4-5 years ago?
I
looked up file creation times for the photo clips
I
made: August 2016. Where did all that time go? The months just zip on by...
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
I
always thought the vertical rock formation with horse's ass on top to be the coit tower with a line
of
parrots on top
of
it.
Matching the vertical stripes
The horse's ass may be the representation
of
an observatory dome, Coit's observatory deck with a finger pointing on top. Or the sea lion on the bolder pointing to the direction
of
Fisherman's wharf where sea lions are. (
I
just like to type horse's ass)
ok. whoa. a) thats not the parrot. the parrot is in the top right area
of
the rocks, that is a wading shorebird
of
some sort as you can tell via the beak,
i
call it the birdfallo cause its attached to a buffalo (and both clues are meant to be read together) b) there is a seal lower right looking up, what are you calling the sea lion out
of
curiosity? c) coit tower is the nose upside down (and there is a UFO above it...).
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
I always thought the vertical rock formation with horse's ass on top to be the coit tower with a line of parrots on top of it.
Matching the vertical stripes
The horse's ass may be the representation of an observatory dome, Coit's observatory deck with a finger pointing on top. Or the sea lion on the bolder pointing to the direction of Fisherman's wharf where sea lions are. (I just like to type horse's ass)
ok. whoa. a) thats not the parrot. the parrot is in the top right area of the rocks, that is a wading shorebird of some sort as you can tell via the beak, i call it the birdfallo cause its attached to a buffalo (and both clues are meant to be read together) b) there is a seal lower right looking up, what are you calling the sea lion out of curiosity? c) coit tower is the nose upside down (and there is a UFO above it...).
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
However the leg of the table being a combination of a tower and a firehose nozzle points me to Coit.
Also flipping the table upside down orients the table correctly; E to the east side.
Also the graphics on top of the Coit elevator has many clues:
The blue genie lamp
Wind rose
Up/Down triangles
Bell shape on top
where exactly are you seeing a genie lamp in this? *confused*
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
However the leg
of
the table being a combination
of
a tower and a firehose nozzle points me to Coit.
Also flipping the table upside down orients the table correctly; E to the east side.
Also the graphics on top
of
the Coit elevator has many clues:
The blue genie lamp
Wind rose
Up/Down triangles
Bell shape on top
where exactly are you seeing a genie lamp in this? *confused*
JoshCornell
the genie vase looking blue spot is actually a korean duck vase in the asian art museum
(can you figure out why?! ...i bet one person can...
)
JoshCornell
the genie vase looking blue spot is actually a korean duck vase in the asian art museum
(can you figure out why?! ...
i
bet one person can...
)
Choice
The blue bay is the blue genie lamp.
Sea lion is sitting on the horse's ass,
UFO?
Do you see a Jedi master or Millennium Falcon?
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
where exactly are you seeing a genie lamp in this? *confused*
After removing the clutter in the middle.
MERLIN
Sounds from the sky.....check out the lat./lon. numbers.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/luc ... -wind-harp
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Sounds from the sky.....check out the lat./lon. numbers.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/luc ... -wind-harp
You do realize that so. SF is a different city than SF
MERLIN
You never let me have any fun
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
You never let me have any fun
If we need any misdirection we'll read Spirit-Rrrrrr's posts!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
If we need any misdirection we'll read Spirit-Rrrrrr's posts!
TRU-DAT!
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Sounds from the sky.....check out the lat./lon. numbers.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/luc ... -wind-harp
Like my sounds from the sky better
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2993
Choice
Starting to worry about your mental health Durian. This is inkblot territory.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Starting to worry about your mental health Durian. This is inkblot territory.
Shhhhh...he's making Rorschach happy.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
The blue bay is the blue genie lamp.
Sea lion is sitting on the horse's ass,
UFO?
Do you see a Jedi master or Millennium Falcon?
flip it upside down thats a ufo over a tower bro. the uss enterprise is in one, actually...so are chtullhu and xenomorph...havent found the falcon...yet...
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
After removing the clutter in the middle.
duck vase at AAM is way better match.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
You do realize that so. SF is a different city than SF
i like it.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
duck vase at AAM is way better match.
I'm sure I can find even a better match at my local salvation army store.
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
This is endlessly fascinating. A shadow on the San Carlos rock/plaque:
ok, youve gone full blown dambala...
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
I'm sure I can find even a better match at my local salvation army store.
rrrrright...but the duck vase actually has a purpose...it tells you something...
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
rrrrright...but the duck vase actually has a purpose...it tells you something...
It quacks?
Choice
At least mine is blue!
It's most likely a combination of layout of the SF bay and a steam boat. Notice the keel.
Choice
Combo of SF bay layout and ss canberra?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2941
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
At least mine is blue!
It's most likely a combination of layout of the SF bay and a steam boat. Notice the keel.
its blue cause it is also south lake...its south lake and the duck vase at the aam...
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
And of course there is more—multiple references to cable cars, Angel Island, Alcatraz, Ghirardelli, the Bay and evirons... It starts to add up to a lot of data all viewable in a radius of less than 100 yards.
But the fact that while you see all that , there is nothing that leads to a probable dig site , indicating it probably is just random similar shapes and you are in the wrong spot.
Goonie68
Aquatic Park,
Durian,
I admire your conviction to your theory, I also have a strong case for a theory, and will stay on my theory until I dig and prove it right or wrong. Last month I did go down to the Aquatic Park to check out things in my theory and some of the areas you have suggested, I did a small amount of research to see how the Speaker plays into your solve, as your Giant Pole. When I came across this article about the Park (below) and the Historical significance it has to San Francisco, it really harped on how important this area was. By reading this article I can see why this area would be an impossible dig location even back in 1980. I did go and scout the speaker, and what I could tell is that digging a hole around this structure would of been very hard to do with all the people around and it (even at 5am with Joggers) would of not been very private. So the question is would BP risk someone seeing him in the open digging a hole and would they be curious? Would he take that chance? Not to mention that it is a protected area? Again I am not saying your theory is wrong, but if you can't dig (protected area) to prove it then how will you know it's right? I hope you can get to your location and see the area for yourself, and see that taking your Giant step lands you in concrete, which by the action of taking a step is quite small. Maybe you will get to see with boots on the ground and how strong your theory is.
https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/harrison/harrison29.htm#photos
strike13
Goonie68 wrote::
Aquatic Park,
Durian,
I admire your conviction to your theory, I also have a strong case for a theory, and will stay on my theory until I dig and prove it right or wrong. Last month I did go down to the Aquatic Park to check out things in my theory and some of the areas you have suggested, I did a small amount of research to see how the Speaker plays into your solve, as your Giant Pole. When I came across this article about the Park (below) and the Historical significance it has to San Francisco, it really harped on how important this area was. By reading this article I can see why this area would be an impossible dig location even back in 1980. I did go and scout the speaker, and what I could tell is that digging a hole around this structure would of been very hard to do with all the people around and it (even at 5am with Joggers) would of not been very private. So the question is would BP risk someone seeing him in the open digging a hole and would they be curious? Would he take that chance? Not to mention that it is a protected area? Again I am not saying your theory is wrong, but if you can't dig (protected area) to prove it then how will you know it's right? I hope you can get to your location and see the area for yourself, and see that taking your Giant step lands you in concrete, which by the action of taking a step is quite small. Maybe you will get to see with boots on the ground and how strong your theory is.
https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/harrison/harrison29.htm#photos
Interesting..Van Ness...also a street bordering Fenway.
Goonie68
strike13 wrote::
Yes, Charleston has a Cleveland street off of King, there is also a Lombard street in downtown NY, Boston has Van Ness as you stated, and there is some others but can't remember off the top of my head...
Interesting..Van Ness...also a street bordering Fenway.
Goonie68
I think I was incorrect about NY and Lombard, not sure it's an actual street name.
Goonie68
I'll be there this weekend, and I'll let you know what evidence I find![/quote]
Awesome, So will I!!!
Choice
I wanna believe @Durian. The truth is out there.
gManTexas
People, the book is rather small. Yes, the original paintings were large, but they were obviously shrunk down in order to print the book. In 1982 what did we have for tools? Photocopiers, overhead projectors, film to take a photo of the image then blow it up, magnifying glasses.
What some of you are missing is that there were editors, writers, printers and BP all checking this thing before it was published. They all seemed to be comfortable with the content and scale of the images. I also do not believe that scaling the image on a computer screen is necessary to solve the puzzle. The image is intended to assist in getting you to the proper location. The verse is what gives you the dig instructions.
bbi
Agreed, the print is very small and we shouldn't be over zooming sections to which wouldn't have been possible back in the day. However, just under half of that image is made up of these mountain/rocky outcrops with quite a few of them outlined in the blue. So there must be more to it than just filling in dead space or by it simply stating its on the coast. Why, I even see an old guy sitting down with a walking stick with a robe on?!! and its one of those things that once you see it you can't unsee it.
Anyway, I see why Durian is pursuing this area of trying to match something in this landscape to an area or a place at the Aquatic Park and I think its a great effort in either proving it or disproving it by exhausting all options. You really can't beat boots on the ground and I'm sure once Durian has visited the Park at the weekend he'll come away either satisfied at what he sees or just scratching that part of the theory of his list.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Giant pole... check
Giant step... check
To the place
The casque is kept... ? ? ?
How does this not qualify as a potential dig site?
I'll let you know what evidence—if any—I find on site, but to say there is no probable dig site is IMO ridiculous. The rock is even faceted more or less properly by the artist, with the plaque side shown facing the proper angle, and facing a different direction than the side facing you from this view. And most of those "random similar shapes" I've been identifying as potential site confirmers can be found on that rock and in that museum in the photo above.
Agree to disagree, but that's my final two cents on the matter until I have more data.
Most of the people here are open to new ideas and different ways of looking at things. You could be onto something or not.
Keep this in mind: most of the puzzles have very vague instructions as to the casque location. I believe SF is one of them. This translates into probing a large area repeatedly and digging probably more than one hole. The casque can be up to 3.5 feet down in the ground. Even in 1982 this would be a tough task in a high traffic area, but today even more so. The guys in Chicago dug multiple times. The guys in Cleveland dug for 8-9 hours straight. At best you will probably have to probe and dig for several hours.
If you cannot get permission, you will be noticed in that area and probably told to stop by the police or other authorities. Not to mention that there are certainly web and traffic cams recording your activities.
I think you should go there and scope it out. See for yourself if it seems correct. Being on-site and better yet, digging really puts things in perspective.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
Awesome, So will I!!!
Cool! Which day?[/quote]
Sat morning, Good luck!
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
I think the feature you are pointing to looks like a bunny face, as in Bunny Meadow in GGP. Especially when we do not zoom in to 300X magnification.
What is all this 300X magnification about? Most magnification I see here is no more than 5X which is a typical magnifying glass.
Here's a sample of 5X:
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
What is all this 300X magnification about? Most magnification I see here is no more than 5X which is a typical magnifying glass.
Here's a sample of 5X:
Y'all are free to believe whatever you want. If you post it here, you should expect to receive some thoughts and probably criticism (sometimes constructive). The real task is to go dig up a casque. That is the ultimate proof.
Choice
Durian wrote::
It's been brought to my attention that the "C" and "S" I identified are typographical anomalies from Photoshop work done to enhance a scan I've been working off of. Good for finding images, not so great for adding letter forms that aren't there.
So I recant that part of my theory. Feel free to continue to burn me at the stake for the rest of it, however.
I wish someone that owns a copy of the original book could do a grid photography of the image with 4X optical magnification. Grid of 3X4 or 4X5.
Scanning corrupts the image.
Spiritr
how about using the microscope to look into those specific grid or sections? That's how you truly understand what's "in" the image.
Choice
Durian wrote::
Maybe we will find God? Or Preiss?
All you'll find is bad sarcasm
maltedfalcon
So Durian, exactly when was the painting you imaged below painted?
Choice
Durian wrote::
I believe in the 30's. They've been touched up on occasion as well.
There are some nice old pictures on the SF library site with date associated to them:
https://tinyurl.com/yd4p97cl
Choice
All the gold stenciling in her robe reminds me of the gold ribbons on cable cars.
maskit
Hi again, Durian. I'm glad to hear about your pending trip to San Francisco. I just wanted to remind you of something. The land from the bleachers all the way to the street was dug up during the 2009 remodel and this appears to include your dig spot. The skylights were replaced and a whole new irrigation system was installed. Looking at the photos, It seems that the concrete walkway may also have been redone.
Here is a link to the street view from July 2009, so you can get an idea of what I’m talking about.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8063776 ... 312!8i6656
Here are some shots from that street view
Maltedfalcon posted on Facebook some aerial photos of the renovation. I have copied 3 of them below.
[
Just something to keep in mind while you're there.
Choice
Back to my "Coit sundial" theory!
Looking closely to the base of the clock on the table and the shadow it casts I notice 2 sharp angle points, one on each side of the base (yellow 2 and 3) and one point in the middle (yellow 1). IMO they can match either the base of the Coit tower or even more interestingly the POV of someone looking straight down from observation deck (red oval) the outline of the tower itself. Even the extended clock shadow matches the shadow of the arched window. Only 5x zoom. Any feedback?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Back to my "Coit sundial" theory!
Looking closely to the base of the clock on the table and the shadow it casts I notice 2 sharp angle points, one on each side of the base (yellow 2 and 3) and one point in the middle (yellow 1). IMO they can match either the base of the Coit tower or even more interestingly the POV of someone looking straight down from observation deck (red oval) the outline of the tower itself. Even the extended clock shadow matches the shadow of the arched window. Only 5x zoom. Any feedback?
I believe those are legs on a desk alarm clock, like a Westclock which used to be really popular.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
I believe those are legs on a desk alarm clock, like a Westclock which used to be really popular.
Yes, and the table has a leg too. But there's a hidden meaning (match) in everything here.
bbi
gManTexas wrote::
I believe those are legs on a desk alarm clock, like a Westclock which used to be really popular.
Yes, just compared it to a few of the scans/photos of the image I have. I think these are legs (left and right) but not really seeing anything in the center.
Choice
If there isn't a point in the middle then it's a match to the base of the tower.
The picture to the left looks like 2 concave curves and the one in the middle looks like one convex.
https://i.imgur.com/jP4zqcd.png
Spiritr
so the hidden message is "legs" ?
bbi
Choice wrote::
If there isn't a point in the middle then it's a match to the base of the tower.
The picture to the left looks like to concave curves and the one in the middle looks like one convex.
https://i.imgur.com/jP4zqcd.png
The 4th image on the right is an actual photo of the image, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd images are separate scans of different books. As you can see, each scan has its differences and each book has its own print issue such as little blobs here and there.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
so the hidden message is "legs" ?
No, as with everything else in the image, the shape of the clock, including the shadow should match something. Either a structure or natural feature or layout/map of someplace. It has a distinctive shadow.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Can't copy the image address, but check the link:
Https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-san-c ... 85685.html
We get it, you really like the plaque.
Choice
You are persistent!
What does that have to do with a clock?
My argument is that Coit tower is the gnomon of a sundial.
What is the connection of the plaque to a clock?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
You are persistent!
What does that have to do with a clock?
My argument is that Coit tower is the gnomon of a sundial.
What is the connection of the plaque to a clock?
BTW, most of the community here has rejected the notion of using shadows of structures as clues, so that is probably why you are getting much feedback. That and the fact that most people have either drifted away or are only lurking.
The shadow issue is partly due to the nightmare that was the Masquerade, but also, that there are too many variables involved.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
No, as with everything else in the image, the shape of the clock, including the shadow should match something. Either a structure or natural feature or layout/map of someplace.
ok, I'm going to share what I know with you on this one, it's not sarcasm. Because you are very close to the truth AGAIN.
So let's talk about the image, image only, for now.
With everything we know so far of image 1, we know it's June because of the rose, we know it's a Pearl and it's valuable meaning to BP because that's his mother's name, we know it's San Francisco within the given coordinates.
The theme of the Image was based on the painting Virgin of the Rocks, the London version.
this "clock" might be the only object that obsess you from seeing what's really in the image, the entire "table" including the rose, it's leafs, it's stem, all the way to the bottom of Palencar's signature is a
map
, since you point out the shadow of the clock, it's actually indicating North, using that as a directional indicator, 4 numbers in the clock's face as N S E W, 3 is N, 6 is E, 9 is S, and 12 is W.
using google map, you should be able to match the bottom of the table to the actual map within section 1 of San Francisco.
do some research if you don't know what section 1 is.
further discussion on the "shadow", in order to accurately pinpoint the casting of shadow, you will need the time of the day, day of the month, and month of the year.
Of the image , the hour we're looking at should be 6, but we don't know if it's am or pm. If you suggest the tower as a sundial then the hour we're looking for would be 6pm because the tower opens from 10am-6pm.
So in June, if you look down from the top of the tower at 6pm, the view of it's shadow could be your key to unlock the casque.
It will cost you $7, but before 1985, it's free.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
GMan, are you talking shadows of structures themselves, or structures outlined in shadow by the artist?
Structures like buildings, poles, trees, etc. casting shadows to reveal the casque location.
I mean really, who makes a puzzle that is only good on one or two days a year? Also, if the location depends on a shadow, if the object casting the shadow is destroyed or moved, then the clue no longer works.
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
this "clock" might be the only object that obsess you from seeing what's really in the image, the entire "table" including the rose, it's leafs, it's stem, all the way to the bottom of Palencar's signature is a
map
, since you point out the shadow of the clock, it's actually indicating North, using that as a directional indicator, 4 numbers in the clock's face as N S E W, 3 is N, 6 is E, 9 is S, and 12 is W.
using google map, you should be able to match the bottom of the table to the actual map within section 1 of San Francisco.
do some research if you don't know what section 1 is.
Okay, I'll bite. I would assume that by sections you mean districts? District 1 being Richmond? If not, then just tell us. If you have a good map overlay for the table, then also just tell us.
Since you posted it, you will get credit for the find.
Spiritr
This is how San Francisco is planned and divided.
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
District 1 being Richmond????
I don't live there. That's why I said I'm assuming political districts.
https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/F ... map_lg.pdf
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
District 1 being Richmond?
I'm sorry but please go back and do more research on history of San Francisco, or how the city was planned.
The thing about posting such image would lead to a lot of controversy, you see there are people who's looking in GGP, some even say they are going to the Maritime Museum and look for clues, telling them it's a waste of time is very cruel. So might as well let them find out on their own.
Do you realize how ridiculous this is? The only thing controversial is your statement.
Spiritr
here's is 1:1 3D model that I'm currently working on, with the architectural plans I have.
using the base aerial view image that was captured in Oct, around 4pm, that the basic idea of shadow casting
once I'm done with everything, and geo-locate this on google earth, I will be able to show you exactly how everything will look in any time and date I wish to see.
Spiritr
gManTexas wrote::
Do you realize how ridiculous this is? The only thing controversial is your statement.
No I don't think it's ridiculous at all, of me trying to be peaceful and fair is ridiculous to you?
I can't say others are wrong because I have nothing to proof I'm right, you understand?
that's why I'm only here to discuss a certain theory and ideas that could possibility be clues to what's in the image.
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
No I don't think it's ridiculous at all, of me trying to be peaceful and fair is ridiculous to you?
I can't say others are wrong because I have nothing to proof I'm right, you understand?
that's why I'm only here to discuss a certain theory and ideas that could possibility be clues to what's in the image.
Then discuss. You don't have to be cryptic. Post your map overlay and others will give an opinion. From what I've seen lately, it is actually pretty calm here. I think people can be civil.
Spiritr
it's not a overlay map and I'm not being cryptic, I even post the district map as per your question, go back 1 page and you'll see it.
Choice
This is practically what I already covered.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=flip&start=3021
[added]
Also I believe the orientation of table is correct. Shadow points to 3 o'clock direction which is 6PM-ish in summer sundial time (due east).
I mentioned this before too.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=correction&start=3015
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Shadow points to 3 o'clock which is 6PM sundial time (due east).
it's either you didn't read what I wrote, or simply ignored it.
as far as I know, "sundial" only shows sunny hours from 7am to 5pm.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
it's either you didn't read what I wrote, or simply ignored it.
as far as I know, "sundial" only shows sunny hours from 7am to 5pm.
In the summer on top of a hill the tower can cast shadow well after 5PM. It wouldn't be sunset till after 8:30PM in June.
Spiritr
ok, even tho I'm still very confused on how you're trying to interpret this "clock" or "compass" that you claimed is not a "clock" nor "compass"...
but you get the idea of the shadow's time, which I personally believe is correct.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
again, you skipped my question
but it doesn't matter, you get the idea of the shadow's time, which I personally believe is correct.
Also one major thing wrong with your model. The tower should stand where the statue of Columbus is to match the table diagram.
Spiritr
wait, which model are you talking about?
what's wrong with my model? please explain in details
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
my model is wrong? how?
because it is unfinished ? that makes it wrong???
No, it's wrong because it has to follow the table diagram. Move the tower to where Columbus stands then you're done.
Spiritr
first of all I have no idea what's a "table diagram"
this model that I'm currently still working on and is based on the tower's actual site plan and it's actual geo location
whatever you see is exactly how it is in real life, so it can't be wrong.
Choice
I explained it to you already. Not a clock, not a compass but a sundial. If you want to call it a clock then fine. Splitting hair.
You can't have the gnomon 200 feet away from the face of the sundial. On the table, clock sits in the middle of the round table (Columbus turn-about).
Table leg (Coit tower) is in the middle of the table like any normal table. Flip the table over (spiral sign) and the tower sits in the middle of the table, middle of the turn-about where Columbus stands. Then you have a proper clock/sundial.
erexere
Sundials and sun shadows? That doesnt seem like a good methid for this puzzle. It is problematic in so many ways...but the simulation of such a method in a setting is possible.
The concept isnt out of the question, its just not well justified in San Francisco, where neither the image nor verse seem to help give us this sort of indication. In Houston, the Raiders of the Losr Ark idea at least fit an actual scene where a fixed object represented the "sun" and the focus if the Atropos Key's diamond (four equal sided figure) center allowed for an alignment that points to the same spot on the ground regardless of the time. The image contained long shadows and several same way facing figures (camel, rhino, genie), which help support a directional motif like a sundial.
San Francisco's puzzle does have a literal 6 o'clock reading clock oncentered on a circular table top like a sundial, so its possible theres an idea or simulation of a ray source object-focus. You have to determine what those two things are, however. Is it the thing running north or the object of Twain's attention?
gManTexas
My thought is that if we were even to consider a shadow, it should be in a location that gets sun at least 300 days a year.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
sigh~
Do it your way! You'll always be a couple of hundred feet off target.
Choice
erexere wrote::
Sundials and sun shadows? That doesnt seem like a good methid for this puzzle. It is problematic in so many ways...but the simulation of such a method in a setting is possible.
The concept isnt out of the question, its just not well justified in San Francisco, where neither the image nor verse seem to help give us this sort of indication. In Houston, the Raiders of the Losr Ark idea at least fit an actual scene where a fixed object represented the "sun" and the focus if the Atropos Key's diamond (four equal sided figure) center allowed for an alignment that points to the same spot on the ground regardless of the time. The image contained long shadows and several same way facing figures (camel, rhino, genie), which help support a directional motif like a sundial.
San Francisco's puzzle does have a literal 6 o'clock reading clock oncentered on a circular table top like a sundial, so its possible theres an idea or simulation of a ray source object-focus. You have to determine what those two things are, however. Is it the thing running north or the object of Twain's attention?
Image indicates the shadow of the clock points to 3 o'clock direction (east). Note the "3" with thorns. That's bay bridge.
You don't need to create a model to figure due east direction. 6PM, time indicated on the clock is when a eastward shadow is cast in the summer.
Depending on which verse you use. Verse 10 has clear indication of tower and shadow and eastward direction and number of steps, twice as many as time on clock.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
My thought is that if we were even to consider a shadow, it should be in a location that gets sun at least 300 days a year.
Why? Theme is rose, pearl, 6, June.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Why? Theme is rose, pearl, 6, June.
That's irrelevant. In order to see a shadow, you need sun. SF isn't the sunniest place. Also, like I said, why would anyone make a puzzle, hoping to sell millions of copies of the book, and limit the possible solution to 1 or two days a year? I'm just not buying this proposal.
There has not been any evidence that the month connected to each puzzle has any bearing on being able to solve the puzzle, reveal the dig spot or even any pattern that I know of.
Choice
The whole point is you do not need to see the shadow and calculate the exact time and date to get the general direction. The table puzzle tells you that. 3 o'clock direction towards bay bridge. That's all you need to know.
erexere
If it makes sense, go for it.
I've learned in my own exploits (i.e. extraordinary thought experiments) that many things are possible, yet they arent reasonable in terms of what we have learned about Byron Preiss' methods. In other words, what we *think* is going on is different from actual experience in the real world.
I find a lot of ideas are worth pursuing, but only to the point where there is a clear and indisputable return. Sun and shadow was a fun twist for Masquerade. It doesnt feel right for the Secret to use the same exact method.
Rviewer1
erexere wrote::
Sundials and sun shadows? That doesnt seem like a good methid for this puzzle. It is problematic in so many ways...but the simulation of such a method in a setting is possible.
The concept isnt out of the question, its just not well justified in San Francisco, where neither the image nor verse seem to help give us this sort of indication. In Houston, the Raiders of the Losr Ark idea at least fit an actual scene where a fixed object represented the "sun" and the focus if the Atropos Key's diamond (four equal sided figure) center allowed for an alignment that points to the same spot on the ground regardless of the time. The image contained long shadows and several same way facing figures (camel, rhino, genie), which help support a directional motif like a sundial.
San Francisco's puzzle does have a literal 6 o'clock reading clock oncentered on a circular table top like a sundial, so its possible theres an idea or simulation of a ray source object-focus. You have to determine what those two things are, however. Is it the thing running north or the object of Twain's attention?
I’m working up at the LOH. MF is up there and has El Cids Spear/Banner as his giant pole. The method I’m trying to use is to use the giant pole to line me up on a location confirmation image or verse or an object of Twain’s attention and draw a straight line from the giant pole to arrive at the exact dig location. For example in the case of the LOH. I would draw a straight line from El Cids spear/ banner out to fort mason as fort mason is an object of Twain’s attention. That line if you trace it back from fort mason lands roughly on the lawn close to the lion on El Cid’s side.
I’m using a column as my Giant pole.
maltedfalcon
gManTexas wrote::
My thought is that if we were even to consider a shadow, it should be in a location that gets sun at least 300 days a year.
or its a shadow from a street lamp
Choice
You guys have a completely different definition of the word "giant"
Rviewer1
Rviewer1 wrote::
I’m working up at the LOH. MF is up there and has El Cids Spear/Banner as his giant pole. The method I’m trying to use is to use the giant pole to line me up on a location confirmation image or verse or an object of Twain’s attention and draw a straight line from the giant pole to arrive at the exact dig location. For example in the case of the LOH. I would draw a straight line from El Cids spear/ banner out to fort mason as fort mason is an object of Twain’s attention. That line if you trace it back from fort mason lands roughly on the lawn close to the lion on El Cid’s side.
I’m using a column as my Giant pole.
After rethinking my above method, I can see that it is too arbitrary. For example I could have chosen “Stone Walls Door” or even Joan of Arc to draw my line. Once you have identified your giant pole, the giant step should be immediately obvious. If it’s not then you have likely chosen the wrong giant pole.
Choice
A good option for giant pole and step is the Lyons steps. Has most clues concentrated there with reverse GH visible. A long pole handrail in the middle of steps. Head of the dragon is lion's head. A word of caution, I think Diane Feinstein still lives there and any poking may get you arrested.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/69 ... otostream/
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-r ... to-2486039
And the rose being the palace of fine arts
Spiritr
LOL true, a man was just arrested for threatening to kill her.
Choice
Just to prove a point, it took me 1/2 hour to pull another solution out of my ...
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Just to prove a point, it took me 1/2 hour to pull another solution out of my ...
Remember, unless you pull a casque out of the ground, it is only one of thousands of
proposed
solutions.
Choice
300X magnification, thousands of proposed solutions? It seems like you multiply everything by a factor of 100. No wonder everything is bigger in Texas!
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
300X magnification, thousands of proposed solutions? It seems like you multiply everything by a factor of 100. No wonder everything is bigger in Texas!
Lol, just dropping knowledge my friend.
MERLIN
A while back I was super focused on the Lyon street steps as a possible cask location. My starting point was the intersection of Jackson (Stone Wall) and Baker (Smells Sweet). The problem is it's almost impossible to probe and dig around there without getting into trouble with the law as was mentioned. It is interesting how after a while we all end up at the same locations.
Choice
Better starting point is GGB, the stonewall's door/gate. Then to the palace (the rose) and then to the pole and steps.
[added]
Someone needs to go count some steps!
Used to live @baker acres residence club in the neighborhood when I was a kid going to college.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
A while back I was super focused on the Lyon street steps as a possible cask location. My starting point was the intersection of Jackson (Stone Wall) and Baker (Smells Sweet). The problem is it's almost impossible to probe and dig around there without getting into trouble with the law as was mentioned. It is interesting how after a while we all end up at the same locations.
These are the wrong verses for SF. Malted knew this in 2008 - these verses belong in Montreal. MF got SO CLOSE
Then again it's the wrong verse for the image!
MERLIN
Exactly why it was abandoned.....Just thought I would share since you were looking at the Lion steps.
JoshCornell
i dont get it, thats the right verse for sf though..
JoshCornell
i
dont get it, thats the right verse for sf though..
MERLIN
JoshCornell wrote::
i
dont get it, thats the right verse for sf though..
I
think the verses are incorrectly matched.
I
believe verse 7 belongs in Montreal, and verse 10 belongs in SF.
MERLIN
JoshCornell wrote::
i dont get it, thats the right verse for sf though..
I think the verses are incorrectly matched. I believe verse 7 belongs in Montreal, and verse 10 belongs in SF.
JoshCornell
lol no the above isnt even a terrible idea at all...i mean, its not going to get you to the treasure but its also not wrong.
JoshCornell
lol no the above isnt even a terrible idea at all...
i
mean, its not going to get you to the treasure but its also not wrong.
JoshCornell
that clue is actually awesome im gonna pm you it lol ...you made it into my book merlin.
Choice
Poor Merlin
Took me a few edits for this post!
I don't see the connection of Stonewall Jackson to SF
Choice
Poor Merlin
Took me a few edits for this post!
I
don't see the connection
of
Stonewall Jackson to SF
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Exactly why it was abandoned.....Just thought
I
would share since you were looking at the Lion steps.
I
'm not looking at Lyon, It meant to be a joke.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Exactly why it was abandoned.....Just thought I would share since you were looking at the Lion steps.
I'm not looking at Lyon, It meant to be a joke.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Poor Merlin
Took me a few edits for this post!
I
don't see the connection
of
Stonewall Jackson to SF
Back in the day
I
was working with verse 7 - Stonewall Jackson = Stone Walls Door.
I
no longer think verse 7 applies to SF.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Poor Merlin
Took me a few edits for this post!
I don't see the connection of Stonewall Jackson to SF
Back in the day I was working with verse 7 - Stonewall Jackson = Stone Walls Door. I no longer think verse 7 applies to SF.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Back in the day I was working with verse 7 - Stonewall Jackson = Stone Walls Door. I no longer think verse 7 applies to SF.
That's why I asked. What does a confederate general got to do with SF?
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Back in the day
I
was working with verse 7 - Stonewall Jackson = Stone Walls Door.
I
no longer think verse 7 applies to SF.
That's why
I
asked. What does a confederate general got to do with SF?
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
lol no the above isnt even a terrible idea at all...
i
mean, its not going to get you to the treasure but its also not wrong.
Where's your spot Josh? Lake Merced?!
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
lol no the above isnt even a terrible idea at all...i mean, its not going to get you to the treasure but its also not wrong.
Where's your spot Josh? Lake Merced?!
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
That's why
I
asked. What does a confederate general got to do with SF?
check recent news....
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
That's why I asked. What does a confederate general got to do with SF?
check recent news....
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Where's your spot Josh? Lake Merced?!
no
Choice
20 minutes to go. $102.50
https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-SECRET-A-T ... Sw1IVbtj6g
Choice
What does recent news got to do with the news 40 yrs ago.
I
'm losing faith in your brain Josh!
Choice
What does recent news got to do with the news 40 yrs ago. I'm losing faith in your brain Josh!
JoshCornell
you bidding? lol too rich for my blood. i do love books but that one remains elusive for me lol. i figure ill buy a nice one cheap after treasures are dug
JoshCornell
you bidding? lol too rich for my blood.
i
do love books but that one remains elusive for me lol.
i
figure ill buy a nice one cheap after treasures are dug
JoshCornell
consider your question, consider my answer.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
you bidding? lol too rich for my blood. i do love books but that one remains elusive for me lol. i figure ill buy a nice one cheap after treasures are dug
$30 was my limit!
JoshCornell
oh man gotta got at least 50...either way its at 100 lol
JoshCornell
i got another one called the merlin mystery (seems hard as f**k) but its already over (had a time limit...went unsolved), i just bought it for my collection.
Choice
@Goldengate, That's hate crime challenging the mentally challenged.
Choice
Stonewall Jackson has no connection to SF. South should keep their traitors where they belong. War of northern aggression my arse!
Choice
$340, went cheaper than before
Choice
Someone has the book posted on wiki. I don't know how legal that is!
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/file/fet ... et_OCR.pdf
Choice
A couple of month ago I called the reference to Stonewall Jackson "too far fetched".
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=fetched&start=2629
JoshCornell
Goldengate wrote::
While I agree the south should stay in the south, Stonewall Jackson was sent to San Francisco to help manage the city during the gold rush / pre-civil war era.
do you have evidence of this cause i dont think its true.
JoshCornell
stonewall jackson has 3 ties to cali, with 1 specifically to san francisco:
a) direct sf tie is to alcatraz via the winder family. the one winder was the captain of the fort at what is now alcatraz, and he had family in the stonewall brigade with stonewall jackson....controversy erupted when he had photos taken. they were confiscated by the government for national security reasons because of his family ties, and he was moved to fort mason.
b) after finding silver in virgina and using it to forge fake silver coins made of led with a silver coating, jacksons uncle moved to california during the gold rush and hit it rich
c) the stonewall mine in the ghost town in san diego (part of san diego part of puzzle)
JoshCornell
im literally trying to find it and cant which is why i ask.
JoshCornell
i do care which is why i ask...do you know what books? i have 3 books about sf i know preiss used, and actually did check them lol. i also googled around and found nothing about it.
JoshCornell
so you dont have an answer and are probably mistaken. ok then. thanks.
JoshCornell
what do yo get out of making false claims about me? honestly? lol
JoshCornell
i still question the claims..his wife did live in san diego for 1.5 years after his death, and the family (her sister and sisters husband) named the kid stonewall (middle name) but like i said thats in san diego and not jackson there in the gold rush as an authority...
Choice
We should make a new topic thread to take our fights there; itchy and scratchy?
I miss scrappy!
MERLIN
OOOHHH!!! Like a treasure hunting fight club!
JoshCornell
where was he stationed in san francisco? what fort? i dont see any info on that anywhere. im calling it out as possibly not true. im happy to be wrong, but if noone can find info on it then its probably not true lol.
JoshCornell
its important because when youre at jackson square and figure out that he was on the blackjack stamp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Jack_(stamp
)
it tells you where to go next...
so good on merlin for getting it.
he just shouldve stuck with it...
Mister EZ
JoshCornell wrote::
its important because when youre at jackson square and figure out that he was on the blackjack stamp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Jack_(stamp
)
it tells you where to go next...
so good on merlin for getting it.
he just shouldve stuck with it...
Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson...not Andrew Jackson.
(Edit: And....this is the image 1 thread, not image 7. So....Jackson Square?)
JoshCornell
i know mister_ez...read more carefully. you didnt "get" it.
JoshCornell
jackson square is in san francisco as well by ghiradelli (*smacks head*)...jackson st (yes, both named after 20 dolla bill jackson) leads from there to where merlin was noting. and for VERY good reason. a very very very important reason.
Mister EZ
JoshCornell wrote::
i know mister_ez...read more carefully. you didnt "get" it.
Goldengate wrote::
Stonewall was transferred to San Francisco. He was stationed there.
No...no, I did read it correctly.
GG and others were talking about Stonewall Jackson.... you started disputing whether or not he was stationed in San Francisco, followed by using a stamp of Andrew Jackson as 'proof' that you're right.
(And, yes I know about the neighborhood called Jackson Square, in SF......which, doesn't make anybody leap to the Black Jack stamp or allow them to say, 'Stonewall Jackson wasn't stationed in San Francisco'.)
Choice
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf015.asp
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf015.asp
Still, that has has nothing to do with, nor does it refute, what GG was saying about 'Stonewall' Jackson.....
Choice
I too have an issue connecting a confederate general to SF but looking at the location it is the "entrance" to Jackson street that can be interpreted as Jackson's door.
[added]
I realize that GG has a connection to SF but that's not what he's well known for. It's like saying Bill Cosby was a great influence on african-american families. That may be true but not he's known for now.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
I too have an issue connecting a confederate general to SF but looking at the location it is the "entrance" to Jackson street that can be interpreted as Jackson's door.
Heh...yeah, me too.
Note: GG even said, that he doesn't think Stonewall is linked to puzzle.
But, GG also says he has an old history book showing that 'Stonewall' was stationed in San Francisco....and, has offered it up, if a simple question is answered. Instead of an answer to that question, he got, "I think you're wrong about 'Stonewall'.....here, look at the Black Jack Stamp (that shows Andrew and doesn't disprove anything about 'Stonewall' being stationed in S.F.)."
JoshCornell
i never used the stamp to show i was right, i was explaining why it was important, to the contrary of the explicit claims made by your oh so beloved goldengate.
neither did i use it as evidence against goldengates statement. im disputing whether its true because, when looking, i see zero evidence of it. i can find his wife in sd but i cant find him in sf? prob for good reason. lol.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
20 minutes to go. $102.50
https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-SECRET-A-T ... Sw1IVbtj6g
WHAT!!!!!!!??????
Can you pm me next time you see listing like this?
$344 only.... OMG!
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
WHAT!!!!!!!??????
Can you pm me next time you see listing like this?
$344 only.... OMG!
But you got the Japanese version. 3 of them!
I offered the guy $30 when it was still $18. I think he laughed at me!
Spiritr
No, I have more than 3...
But who cares about the oversea edition, I want the original!
It’s a no reserves listing?
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
No, I have more than 3...
But who cares about the oversea edition, I want the original!
It’s a no reserves listing?
Can we move these conversations offline or via PMs? Let's stay on topic please.
Choice
It is on topic Tex, bless your heart!
BTW it was a no reserve auction.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
It is on topic Tex, bless your heart!
BTW it was a no reserve auction.
How is related to Image 1? And I know what Bless your heart means.
Choice
I have too much time on my hand today!
Choice
I wonder if this lamp post was there at the podium in the late 70's.
Nice view of the palace @ north (clock bell or rose or both!))
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
It helps if you provide some description of what you see in an image. Otherwise we have no idea what you are trying to show.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
It helps if you provide some description of what you see in an image. Otherwise we have no idea what you are trying to show.
I thought it was self explanatory. Look at the same color ovals and find resemblances/matches.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
I thought it was self explanatory. Look at the same color ovals and find resemblances/matches.
Please see this very persuasive post:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&p=140807&hilit=south+pole#p140807
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
Please see this very persuasive post:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=737&p=140807&hilit=south+pole#p140807
Yes it was entertaining the 1st time I read that.
Choice
Fenix wrote::
Once is certainly better than none.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZFTUtbn1RU
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
Hey Choice,can you give me a link to the image 1 you are using. It is a much better resolution than the one I have been using?
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
Hey Choice,can you give me a link to the image 1 you are using. It is a much better resolution than the one I have been using?
https://imgur.com/fWLGACL
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
https://imgur.com/fWLGACL
Thanks Choice! It looks much better than the one I was using.
Choice
Durian, how do you explain backward Gh? You would think that it's telling you the location is on the south side of the Ghirardelli sign. And because only the 1st couple of letters are visible the location must be a good distance to the east.
Choice
Durian, how do you explain backward Gh? You would think that it's telling you the location is on the south side
of
the Ghirardelli sign. And because only the 1st couple
of
letters are visible the location must be a good distance to the east.
JoshCornell
what part of the puzzle is the zoom from with your circle and star on it? your fish is a seal lol.
JoshCornell
what part
of
the puzzle is the zoom from with your circle and star on it? your fish is a seal lol.
Choice
They haven't been making chocolate there since the 60's. They are made in San Leandro. Is there any sweet smell still all the way back there from their store in the front?
Also sign not visible there.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
what part
of
the puzzle is the zoom from with your circle and star on it? your fish is a seal lol.
Just under iron gate to the left
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
what part of the puzzle is the zoom from with your circle and star on it? your fish is a seal lol.
Just under iron gate to the left
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
They haven't been making chocolate there since the 60's. They are made in San Leandro. Is there any sweet smell still all the way back there from their store in the front?
Also sign not visible there.
Without a doubt it smells sweet. I stood on the side walk in front of the main door and you could smell the sweet amorma of chocolate from there. There is no doubt this is the fist line in the verse IMO
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
They haven't been making chocolate there since the 60's. They are made in San Leandro. Is there any sweet smell still all the way back there from their store in the front?
Also sign not visible there.
Without a doubt it smells sweet.
I
stood on the side walk in front
of
the main door and you could smell the sweet amorma
of
chocolate from there. There is no doubt this is the fist line in the verse IMO
Choice
Didn't the author explain that the smell sweet was a metaphor in the Japanese interview?
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Without a doubt it smells sweet.
I
stood on the side walk in front
of
the main door and you could smell the sweet amorma
of
chocolate from there. There is no doubt this is the fist line in the verse IMO
Main door? The arched door in the back or front entrance to the store?
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Without a doubt it smells sweet. I stood on the side walk in front of the main door and you could smell the sweet amorma of chocolate from there. There is no doubt this is the fist line in the verse IMO
Main door? The arched door in the back or front entrance to the store?
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
They haven't been making chocolate there since the 60's. They are made in San Leandro. Is there any sweet smell still all the way back there from their store in the front?
Also sign not visible there.
They make a small amount of melted chocolate for there Sundays in the main part of the ice cream restaurant area, you can watch the chocolate being turned and melted, they have been doing this for decades.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
They haven't been making chocolate there since the 60's. They are made in San Leandro. Is there any sweet smell still all the way back there from their store in the front?
Also sign not visible there.
They make a small amount
of
melted chocolate for there Sundays in the main part
of
the ice cream restaurant area, you can watch the chocolate being turned and melted, they have been doing this for decades.
Choice
So are we off the Japanese translation of the interview now?!
He explained that the sweet smell was a metaphor for sweet song or love or some nonsense!
Choice
So are we off the Japanese translation
of
the interview now?!
He explained that the sweet smell was a metaphor for sweet song or love or some nonsense!
Goonie68
Main door? The arched door in the back or front entrance to the store?[/quote]
hope is the thing with feathers poem meaning
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
And at the street corner, you have a beautiful view
of
Alcatraz, with it's smokestack, water tower, and lighthouse—the three high posts. You also have a view
of
Angel Island (Education, the whole point is immigration for Preiss) and capital "J" Justice, Alcatraz. All four are represented by the USGS symbols near the "Gh" in the dress. The triangle represents the peak
of
Mt. Livermore on Angel Island. The blue circle represents the water tower. The two squares are catch-alls for surveyors, denoting special landmarks otherwise without a set symbol—in this case used for the smokestack and lighthouse.
I
can see your point
of
view ,but for me the verse takes direction further down the pier to the intersection
of
Embarcadaro and Jefferson.
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
And at the street corner, you have a beautiful view of Alcatraz, with it's smokestack, water tower, and lighthouse—the three high posts. You also have a view of Angel Island (Education, the whole point is immigration for Preiss) and capital "J" Justice, Alcatraz. All four are represented by the USGS symbols near the "Gh" in the dress. The triangle represents the peak of Mt. Livermore on Angel Island. The blue circle represents the water tower. The two squares are catch-alls for surveyors, denoting special landmarks otherwise without a set symbol—in this case used for the smokestack and lighthouse.
I can see your point of view ,but for me the verse takes direction further down the pier to the intersection of Embarcadaro and Jefferson.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
Just under iron gate to the left
gotta be praying dude (still as yet unidentified)
JoshCornell
Goonie68 wrote::
They make a small amount of melted chocolate for there Sundays in the main part of the ice cream restaurant area, you can watch the chocolate being turned and melted, they have been doing this for decades.
i saw this. can vouch.
JoshCornell
Goonie68 wrote::
They make a small amount
of
melted chocolate for there Sundays in the main part
of
the ice cream restaurant area, you can watch the chocolate being turned and melted, they have been doing this for decades.
i
saw this. can vouch.
Choice
Again noone wants to touch the fact that there was a Japanese translation
of
smells sweet.
Choice
Again noone wants to touch the fact that there was a Japanese translation of smells sweet.
Goonie68
This is the reason you can smell the chocolate it's in the pallor
10 line poems about life
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Again noone wants to touch the fact that there was a Japanese translation of smells sweet.
The question is why would you need a metaphor when you actually have a place where the air smells sweet.
Choice
So the puzzle works only sundays Goonie?
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
The question is why would you need a metaphor when you actually have a place where the air smells sweet.
I guess you know better than the author
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
So the puzzle works only sundays Goonie?
Well at that door it's everyday of the week
Choice
By the way the platform the pearl sits on is hexagonal.
JoshCornell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=65&v=ENrmULWKbeM
Choice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC73kdOL5hk
MERLIN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat1GVnl8-k
Choice
U suck merlin!! We are doing serious SF love song investigation here!!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
U suck merlin!! We are doing serious SF love song investigation here!!
My bad.
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC73kdOL5hk
the japanese clue is a reference to both...mine, directly (though, indirectly referenced), yours, indirectly (while, directly referenced).
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
I thought you were looking in GGP? Welcome to the dark side!
I am perusing a theory that starts at Ghirardelli and moves east.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Again noone wants to touch the fact that there was a Japanese translation of smells sweet.
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
The start of the Verse refers to Pier 43 (stone wall's door). The arch of Pier 43 is the door as well as the inspiration for the arched top of Image 1's design.
The air smells sweet refers to the sweet smell of Freedom. Pier 43 is where the immigrants came after being processed at Angel Island and would enter San Francisco. Pier 43 is also where the prisons for Alcatraz would travel. Once they served their sentence they would be brought to Pier 43 where they would enjoy the sweet smell of Freedom once again.
Goonie68
MrBackstop wrote::
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
The start of the Verse refers to Pier 43 (stone wall's door). The arch of Pier 43 is the door as well as the inspiration for the arched top of Image 1's design.
The air smells sweet refers to the sweet smell of Freedom. Pier 43 is where the immigrants came after being processed at Angel Island and would enter San Francisco. Pier 43 is also where the prisons for Alcatraz would travel. Once they served their sentence they would be brought to Pier 43 where they would enjoy the sweet smell of Freedom once again.
If you are using a metaphor yes this works as well, this same method can be used for Ghirardelli IMO, Domingo Ghirardelli was the most successful chocolatier in San Francisco, which also could be the sweet success of his business. Plus you actually have the smell of chocolate in the air, so seems to me like a reinforced clue.
gManTexas
MrBackstop wrote::
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
The start of the Verse refers to Pier 43 (stone wall's door). The arch of Pier 43 is the door as well as the inspiration for the arched top of Image 1's design.
The air smells sweet refers to the sweet smell of Freedom. Pier 43 is where the immigrants came after being processed at Angel Island and would enter San Francisco. Pier 43 is also where the prisons for Alcatraz would travel. Once they served their sentence they would be brought to Pier 43 where they would enjoy the sweet smell of Freedom once again.
Using Pier 43 instead of Ghirardelli wouldn't change much either way.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Just for fun, let's remember the burial sight is most likely shown pretty much as it is in real life somewhere in the puzzle. And remember what was represented in Chicago and Cleveland physically took up several feet of space in the real world, similar to the San Carlos rock/plaque. If this is the spot, look at the similarities—near the middle of the puzzle, no blue glow:
And if you look at the SF puzzle, there are a limited number of spots in the painting that can be
the spot
.
Can you show how this logic works in Image 12?
Goonie68
Fenix wrote::
I've been a fan of this interpretation as well. Slightly less obvious and makes sense with the Japanese hint IMO. That said, as Goonie68 mentions, there are other ideas that fit well.
If either this or Gh are correct, when coupled with 3 wooden posts in the same general area there only seem to be a few options. The E&J Japanese hint may be the real way to move this forward.
I guess it all depends on the direction one is using for the verse and location. The area supports both directions, from the next line in the verse " Not far away high posts are three" Ships or Fisherman's Warf sign....?
Choice
You'd think GG bridge would be the most obvious door/success of sea journey
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I don't dispute that Pier 43 was one of several prisoner pick up / drop off areas around San Francisco, BUT was that information reasonably available for tourists -- or even residents IN 1982? My family owned (still owns) a restaurant right on Fisherman's Wharf -- I worked the place as a kid/teen/young adult in the 80s and 90s, even hauling in catches on the boat, and never heard that story. Again, I know it's true, but how REASONABLY ACCESSIBLE was that specific information in 82?
I believe that's something really important to prove... was there a plaque, guidebook or one of those goofy illustrated maps of the area that imparted that information -- ANYTHING at all BP could have used that likewise a key searcher would have had reasonable access to in 1982?
Chicago and Cleveland didn't require extensive historical research to find the casques. I think finding contemporary (to 1982) maps, guidebooks, photos, etc is vital -- and to that, modern resources needed to find those items are a godsend. But granular local trivia that may not have been available at the time just doesn't seem to fit methods needed to solve this paperback treasure hunt.
There's a lot to like about the wharf area but for other reasons -- just trying to be realistic in how clues were reasonably meant be interpreted. And who knows, if it is in the Wharf area, it could be one of those Man and Beast / Mozart and Beethoven things were it didn't really matter -- each got the key searcher to the right place.
Either way, best of luck to everyone working so hard to run down clues to this area!
One thing that the Japanese edition of the book did for me is to question how complex or simple these puzzles are intended to be. If the hunt was open to people that may not even visit the casque cities, the clues would have to be well known or stuff easily found in an encyclopedia or similar.
Choice
It's called summer vacation!
bbi
Goldengate wrote::
I think finding contemporary (to 1982) maps, guidebooks, photos, etc is vital -- and to that, modern resources needed to find those items are a godsend.
Found a nice 1982 SF Map, has some nice detail. Even states when the Cable Car system will be closed.
https://imgur.com/fdeFljF
gManTexas
bbi wrote::
Found a nice 1982 SF Map, has some nice detail. Even states when the Cable Car system will be closed.
https://imgur.com/fdeFljF
That's awesome. Do you have a higher resolution image?
MrBackstop
Unknown:
Using Pier 43 instead of Ghirardelli wouldn't change much either way.
Not trying to change anything, just giving Choice a metaphorical sweet smell (Freedom) as opposed to an actual, physical smell (Ghirardelli). But of course my starting point is Pier 43 and ending point is within a matter of yards from Durian's.
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
I guess it all depends on the direction one is using for the verse and location. The area supports both directions, from the next line in the verse " Not far away high posts are three" Ships or Fisherman's Warf sign....?
I have the Balclutha as High posts are three. The ship was docked right there at Pier 41 until it was moved where it is today.
The other important part of my solve being in Aquatic Park is the Belt Railroad. The Belt ran from the Presidio under Fort Mason and along Jefferson Street to a major loading and unloading point Pier 43 and down the San Francisco coastline. It moved supplies, soldiers, immigrants and Alcatraz prisoners.
The Belt railroad is represented by her folded arms which point to the 4th line on one cuff and the 3rd line on the other cuff. So if you use this starting point and move down toward Twain's attention (Paddle Wheel on Hyde Street Pier) you will end up at the Park boundary of Hyde Street.
If you also notice the big number "6" and large Letter "S" on the dragon/snakes body, I see those meaning "6 Steps" (just like the 5 steps in Boston are city blocks). Six blocks from Pier 43 to the West is Hyde Street and the Park.
bbi
gManTexas wrote::
That's awesome. Do you have a higher resolution image?
Sure, here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qN4fYo ... sp=sharing
bbi
gManTexas wrote::
Thanks bbi!
No Problem, have also found a 1979 Muni Map (in two parts) but again very clear in detail.
Part A -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hDAuYy ... sp=sharing
Part B -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PA1Gtg ... sp=sharing
The interesting thing for me on this map (the 79 one). Is the smaller piers around Fisherman's Wharf. They changed around 1980, early 81 I believe. In this one you will see the piers look very similar to the ladies hand with the finger pointing and the 3 shorter piers. Do you think BP or JJP would have used a slightly out of date map? i.e. using a map that was only a year or two old? I'm pretty sure they would have used the most current, but it did make me wonder how often certain tourists maps where updated. Just wondering, because if they used a 1979/80 map they may have taken some imagery out of that without even realizing the changes made to the piers. Just a thought.
Spiritr
No, the actual size of these maps would be too small for Palencar's painting. Remember, anyone can obtain a copy of the city's cartography booklet at the Planning Department on Mission Street.
And, to those that lives far away in the East Coast, a copy could also be obtain in the Library of Congress in D.C.
it looks something like this:
the 1981 and 1982 book looks even better because it's colored. Yes I have them, no I can't share, it's Federal Law. And I'm not taking such risk.
part I contains building plans, part II contains blocks and lot information, and part III were maps.
gManTexas
bbi wrote::
No Problem, have also found a 1979 Muni Map (in two parts) but again very clear in detail.
Part A -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hDAuYy ... sp=sharing
Part B -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PA1Gtg ... sp=sharing
The interesting thing for me on this map (the 79 one). Is the smaller piers around Fisherman's Wharf. They changed around 1980, early 81 I believe. In this one you will see the piers look very similar to the ladies hand with the finger pointing and the 3 shorter piers. Do you think BP or JJP would have used a slightly out of date map? i.e. using a map that was only a year or two old? I'm pretty sure they would have used the most current, but it did make me wonder how often certain tourists maps where updated. Just wondering, because if they used a 1979/80 map they may have taken some imagery out of that without even realizing the changes made to the piers. Just a thought.
It's very possible. Or, since this took a while to put together, maybe the map was new when BP first got it.
Spiritr
if you pay more attention to details you will realized these municipal maps would be too small for Palencar to use.
Look at the Manhattan map he used, look at the size of that map.
MERLIN
Does anyone see this in the image?...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiffa ... 22.4793839
maltedfalcon
Spiritr wrote::
if you pay more attention to details you will realized these municipal maps would be too small for Palencar to use.
Look at the Manhattan map he used, look at the size of that map.
Why would a map on the wall of his current studio have anything to do with the maps he used in 1979 and 1980
gManTexas
maltedfalcon wrote::
Why would a map on the wall of his current studio have anything to do with the maps he used in 1979 and 1980
He said he burned everything also.
Spiritr
and for security reasons, most maps of MUNI were altered, to the actual city of San Francisco, it only shows the correct bus route.
and it looks like this:
look at the shape of Golden Gate Park
Spiritr
he said he burned all the photos, but that's a MAP, a multi-purpose usage MAP!
I post that to help the board think more logically , just think, how on earth can Palencar get his hand on one of these local maps when he's all the way in OHIO?
those maps were just NOT accurate enough in sizing and shapes, for him to use as a map underlay
anyways, my point was if we were to predict the material BP used, such material should be much more detailed and more precise. It should be more government official and not from a municipal company.
meaning someone can walk into their local library and studies. Without paying $2 to the Muni.
MERLIN
It doesn't seem like "precision" was a real concern when this puzzle was thrown together....but thanks for droppin that knowledge.
Spiritr
fine, that map on his wall is a scale 1000 ft to 1 inch topography map of the Manhattan borough, showing the island’s springs, brooks, creeks, and swamps, where land meets landfill, tracing former shorelines and hilltops. Mostly used by structural engineers. AKA Water Maps.
MERLIN
I have no doubt the map on the wall is precise - it's the painted image i'm concerned with - I don't think the precision was transferred over.
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
It doesn't seem like "precision" was a real concern when this puzzle was thrown together....
correct, that's if BP is still alive today to help us. But now he's gone, "precision" should be taken very seriously to not just finding these casques, but also learn and studies the wisdom from all of this puzzle.
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
I have no doubt the map on the wall is precise - it's the painted image i'm concerned with - I don't think the precision was transferred over.
again, I'm not saying that's the MAP he used for these painting!!!
BUT IT CAN BE USED AS A REFERENCE SO YOU KNOW THE KIND OF MATERIAL IN HIS STUDIO ARE VERY PROFESSIONAL AND FOR US TO THINK HE WILL USED SOME NON-OFFICIAL MAPS FROM MUNI TO PROJECT THESE PAINTINGS IS VERY UNLIKELY.
are we good?
MERLIN
Spiritr wrote::
again, I'm not saying that's the MAP he used for these painting!!!
BUT IT CAN BE USED AS A REFERENCE SO YOU KNOW THE KIND OF MATERIAL IN HIS STUDIO ARE VERY PROFESSIONAL AND FOR US TO THINK HE WILL USED SOME NON-OFFICIAL MAPS FROM MUNI TO PROJECT THESE PAINTINGS IS VERY UNLIKELY.
are we good?
I think what we need to think about is what type of map the general public may have been expected to use in 1982 to solve these puzzles....and not be too quick to dismiss newly introduced maps.
Goonie68
MrBackstop wrote::
I have the Balclutha as High posts are three. The ship was docked right there at Pier 41 until it was moved where it is today.
The other important part of my solve being in Aquatic Park is the Belt Railroad. The Belt ran from the Presidio under Fort Mason and along Jefferson Street to a major loading and unloading point Pier 43 and down the San Francisco coastline. It moved supplies, soldiers, immigrants and Alcatraz prisoners.
The Belt railroad is represented by her folded arms which point to the 4th line on one cuff and the 3rd line on the other cuff. So if you use this starting point and move down toward Twain's attention (Paddle Wheel on Hyde Street Pier) you will end up at the Park boundary of Hyde Street.
If you also notice the big number "6" and large Letter "S" on the dragon/snakes body, I see those meaning "6 Steps" (just like the 5 steps in Boston are city blocks). Six blocks from Pier 43 to the West is Hyde Street and the Park.
What I see in the image as the 4 and 3 are, her finger points to the bottom of the 4th block and her other finger touches the 3rd block and 1/2, 43 1/2. 43 1/2 pier is where you can take tours of the bay and Alcatraz, (Educational tours) The home of the Red and White Fleet. You can also use the blocks as 4 & 3 for 43. Right next to 43 1/2 is the historical Ferry Arch # 43, if you notice her arms the top arm arches over the bottom one , the woman or dragon is the Fair Folk or Fairy...giving the play on words Ferry ( woman/dragon) Arch (arms) 43 fingers. Seems like her fingers and arms are giving multiple clues.
famous poems honesty
MrBackstop
That's a nice map I've never seen. And I like your thoughts on the 43 1/2 as well. And I agree, her fingers and arms give all kinds of clues.
I know that most people in GG Park think the crossed arms mean Crossover Drive but I really like this as the Belt Railroad. The Belt was still running up until the early 90s and much of the track is still in the ground today.
Goonie68
MrBackstop wrote::
That's a nice map I've never seen. And I like your thoughts on the 43 1/2 as well. And I agree, her fingers and arms give all kinds of clues.
I know that most people in GG Park think the crossed arms mean Crossover Drive but I really like this as the Belt Railroad. The Belt was still running up until the early 90s and much of the track is still in the ground today.
IF the woman in the image had a belt I would say for sure, the tracks are noticeable down at the pier, I see the connection but does it show up in the image?
JoshCornell
MERLIN wrote::
Does anyone see this in the image?...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiffa ... 22.4793839
there is a seal in the sf image looking up like that, bottom right.
JoshCornell
of all those posted maps i like the 1979 b muni one best, but thats just me. thanks bb.
JoshCornell
of
all those posted maps
i
like the 1979 b muni one best, but thats just me. thanks bb.
Choice
Are we in Sausalito now? My bud took a picture of that with a seal on it making out. It was famous locally for a while.
hxxp://alsybrianlegacybook.com/
Choice
Are we in Sausalito now? My bud took a picture
of
that with a seal on it making out. It was famous locally for a while.
hxxp://alsybrianlegacybook.com/
JoshCornell
id say that seal is exactly 100% referenced.
gManTexas
JoshCornell wrote::
there is a seal in the sf image looking up like that, bottom right.
If you are going to post on this forum, can you please try to use full coherent sentences? Are you capable
of
forming full cogent thoughts?
I
am personally tired
of
your mental diarrhea, clogging up the threads. If you have a problem with me calling you out, take it to PMs and we can work it out, instead
of
whining about how you are mistreated, but Josh you really need to stop inflecting your damage on this forum.
I
believe it would be a much better place, especially intellectually, if you would just leave for good.
gManTexas
JoshCornell wrote::
there is a seal in the sf image looking up like that, bottom right.
If you are going to post on this forum, can you please try to use full coherent sentences? Are you capable of forming full cogent thoughts? I am personally tired of your mental diarrhea, clogging up the threads. If you have a problem with me calling you out, take it to PMs and we can work it out, instead of whining about how you are mistreated, but Josh you really need to stop inflecting your damage on this forum. I believe it would be a much better place, especially intellectually, if you would just leave for good.
Choice
That time
of
the month gman?
Choice
That time of the month gman?
JoshCornell
what the hell are you on? are you drunk? thats perfectly coherent. why you trolling for no reason?
JoshCornell
he didnt. he was asking. i did. lower right...its just the head facing up exactly like the statue. it also references something else, more obviously.
JoshCornell
he didnt. he was asking.
i
did. lower right...its just the head facing up exactly like the statue. it also references something else, more obviously.
MERLIN
Durian wrote::
Merlin, where exactly in the image do you see the seal?
On the Wiki grid I see a seals face at I-8.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86301628/Image%2001
MERLIN
Durian wrote::
Merlin, where exactly in the image do you see the seal?
On the Wiki grid
I
see a seals face at
I
-8.
hxxp://thesecret.pbworks.com/w/page/86301628/Image%2001
nikesparq
MERLIN wrote::
Does anyone see this in the image?...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiffa ... 22.4793839
I've been lurking for a few months and this is my first post. Sausalito has some interesting connections to Image1/Verse 7, but not enough for a solid theory (yet).
Tying into the immigration theme, "Willie" Yee Tock Chee immigrated from China in the early 1900's. For 60 years, he owned and operated a family business known as the Marin Fruit Company (605 Brideway, Sausalito). The MFC is definitely a place where the air would smell sweet.
https://goo.gl/maps/GTVpBuZhuRF2
Yee Tock Chee Park was the docking place for the first paddlewheeler ferry service to Sausalito in 1868. (Hidden SF). If you browse pictures on Google or Yelp, there are concrete stairs that lead down to the water. Since the shoreline is technically a stone seawall, would it be far fetched to call this "stone wall's door" (entrance)?
There some relatively tall wooden posts in that park, but definitely more than 3. What's most interesting is the dedication plaque on the large concrete tree planter. It is right underneath the most prominent corner of the planter, with a large (maybe giant) step leading up to it. There is a tree in that corner, but maybe just enough room around it to bury a casque.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8550129,-122.4788566,3a,75y,351.31h,80.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAF1QipPjkPbcsy2U9MZZja7IbzWl94FLfQPyuLZLhawb!2e10!7i5376!8i2688
360 pan from YTC Park:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12LuzPCTgg
There are a couple of connections to the Mark Twain clue. Between 1922 and 1941 Eureka was on the Sausalito commuter run. (Wikipedia). The ferry dock is just a stone's throw away from YTC Park.
Alternatively, Mark Twain admired elephants.
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Elephant.html
What word caught Mark Twain's attention? Read here:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Chauffeur.html
For the 1915 Pan Pacific Expo at the Palace of Fine Arts, 12 supposedly full-size elephant sculptures were made as flagpole bases. If the elephants were full-size, then the flagpoles were gigantic.
Fast forward almost 50 years later, the venues deteriorated. Prior to restoring the Palace of Fine Arts, most other structures were demolished but two of the elephants and a fountain were salvaged. Guess where they were relocated? Not far down the street from Yee Tock Chee park is Vina Del Mar park.
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/plaza-vina-del-mar-sausalito?select=gXrc5YQTGB3autI_AqSTcw
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/plaza-vina-del-mar-sausalito?select=zy3Y3K03ne2zGeq3CNEgrA
NIce light fixtures, right? Unfortunately, I think there are less than 11, and the flagpoles there are not the originals.
Lastly, if you see an aerial view of that area, you might see a shape that might have looked like a dragon's head in the past, that looks more like a seahorse now.
That's all I have, so I'm passing the baton. Sorry that most of the images I chose are links instead of in-line.
nikesparq
MERLIN wrote::
Does anyone see this in the image?...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiffa ... 22.4793839
I
've been lurking for a few months and this is my first post. Sausalito has some interesting connections to Image1/Verse 7, but not enough for a solid theory (yet).
Tying into the immigration theme, "Willie" Yee Tock Chee immigrated from China in the early 1900's. For 60 years, he owned and operated a family business known as the Marin Fruit Company (605 Brideway, Sausalito). The MFC is definitely a place where the air would smell sweet.
https://goo.gl/maps/GTVpBuZhuRF2
Yee Tock Chee Park was the docking place for the first paddlewheeler ferry service to Sausalito in 1868. (Hidden SF). If you browse pictures on Google or Yelp, there are concrete stairs that lead down to the water. Since the shoreline is technically a stone seawall, would it be far fetched to call this "stone wall's door" (entrance)?
There some relatively tall wooden posts in that park, but definitely more than 3. What's most interesting is the dedication plaque on the large concrete tree planter. It is right underneath the most prominent corner
of
the planter, with a large (maybe giant) step leading up to it. There is a tree in that corner, but maybe just enough room around it to bury a casque.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8550129,-122.4788566,3a,75y,351.31h,80.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAF1QipPjkPbcsy2U9MZZja7IbzWl94FLfQPyuLZLhawb!2e10!7i5376!8i2688
360 pan from YTC Park:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12LuzPCTgg
There are a couple
of
connections to the Mark Twain clue. Between 1922 and 1941 Eureka was on the Sausalito commuter run. (Wikipedia). The ferry dock is just a stone's throw away from YTC Park.
Alternatively, Mark Twain admired elephants.
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Elephant.html
What word caught Mark Twain's attention? Read here:
hxxp://www.twainquotes.com/Chauffeur.html
For the 1915 Pan Pacific Expo at the Palace
of
Fine Arts, 12 supposedly full-size elephant sculptures were made as flagpole bases. If the elephants were full-size, then the flagpoles were gigantic.
Fast forward almost 50 years later, the venues deteriorated. Prior to restoring the Palace
of
Fine Arts, most other structures were demolished but two
of
the elephants and a fountain were salvaged. Guess where they were relocated? Not far down the street from Yee Tock Chee park is Vina Del Mar park.
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/plaza-vina-del-mar-sausalito?select=gXrc5YQTGB3autI_AqSTcw
https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/plaza-vina-del-mar-sausalito?select=zy3Y3K03ne2zGeq3CNEgrA
NIce light fixtures, right? Unfortunately,
I
think there are less than 11, and the flagpoles there are not the originals.
Lastly, if you see an aerial view
of
that area, you might see a shape that might have looked like a dragon's head in the past, that looks more like a seahorse now.
That's all
I
have, so
I
'm passing the baton. Sorry that most
of
the images
I
chose are links instead
of
in-line.
MERLIN
Thanks for sharing Nike - I can see you definitely put some thought into that theory. Here is something else on the other side of the bridge that ties in with asian immigration.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/China ... 22.4617136
MERLIN
Thanks for sharing Nike -
I
can see you definitely put some thought into that theory. Here is something else on the other side
of
the bridge that ties in with asian immigration.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/China ... 22.4617136
JoshCornell
its at GH 7 guys.
i
already travelled through there and checked some stuff out btw...stopped in strawberry on my way to grizzly peak...
JoshCornell
its at GH 7 guys. i already travelled through there and checked some stuff out btw...stopped in strawberry on my way to grizzly peak...
MERLIN
I'm not sure if this is part of the puzzle or not.....I kind of stumbled upon this by accident - but I figured I would share with the group "just in case".
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/m ... -2012.html
MERLIN
I
'm not sure if this is part
of
the puzzle or not.....
I
kind
of
stumbled upon this by accident - but
I
figured
I
would share with the group "just in case".
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/m ... -2012.html
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Thanks for sharing Nike - I can see you definitely put some thought into that theory. Here is something else on the other side of the bridge that ties in with asian immigration.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/China ... 22.4617136
OK, getting deeper by the minute. We are in San Rafael now.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
Thanks for sharing Nike -
I
can see you definitely put some thought into that theory. Here is something else on the other side
of
the bridge that ties in with asian immigration.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/China ... 22.4617136
OK, getting deeper by the minute. We are in San Rafael now.
Choice
I
like all the star maiden statues on top
of
the building tho.
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/s ... ition.html
Choice
I like all the star maiden statues on top of the building tho.
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/s ... ition.html
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
I like all the star maiden statues on top of the building tho.
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/s ... ition.html
Would look good on top of a Christmas tree.
gManTexas
JoshCornell wrote::
what the hell are you on? are you drunk? thats perfectly coherent. why you trolling for no reason?
What value have you brought to this forum Josh?
JoshCornell
MERLIN wrote::
I'm not sure if this is part of the puzzle or not.....I kind of stumbled upon this by accident - but I figured I would share with the group "just in case".
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/m ... -2012.html
this is what most people first see in sf, cause its right outside the powell street station exit, which is where most people get off after coming into the airport...these days...
JoshCornell
gManTexas wrote::
What value have you brought to this forum Josh?
more value than, point in case. thanks for your douchebag input....douchebag.
JoshCornell
MERLIN wrote::
Would look good on top of a Christmas tree.
theres some irony to this statement...the picture he posted above is from the center area of the ppe...but theres another pole (i cant see base on picture but looks similar to shape of pole in above image)...its clearly more massive than everything else there (i only see one though, not 12)...and it's topped with a star (possibly the sun).
MERLIN
JoshCornell wrote::
this is what most people first see in sf, cause its right outside the powell street station exit, which is where most people get off after coming into the airport...these days...
I never noticed that clock before.....at least it has the right color scheme. It kinda reminds me of the table leg and clock in the image.
JoshCornell
well, it is right by the powell cable car turntable...and, so...one's first sweet taste of san francisco...
Choice
Look up "tower of jewels" Josh
JoshCornell
yes im well familiarwith it...the pole im speaking of is located on opposite side parallel to palace of fine arts.
Choice
It was suggested that "in jewel's direction" may refer to tower of jewels.
I still think it's east to NYC.
Choice
JoshCornell wrote::
yes im well familiarwith it...the pole im speaking of is located on opposite side parallel to palace of fine arts.
There are many poles in that area. Here is a model:
Here's the column of progress:
On an unrelated subject (from pole!) here's Mural 'Justice' by artist Frank Van Sloun at the San Francisco Elks Club
JoshCornell
Choice wrote::
There are many poles in that area. Here is a model:
Here's the column of progress:
On an unrelated subject (from pole!) here's Mural 'Justice' by artist Frank Van Sloun at the San Francisco Elks Club
that is them eh, i wasnt totally sure cause theres only 8 (the other 4 are in center area, as those ones aren't ones from the original photo you posted)...but i kinda figured...there other one is substantially bigger...
JoshCornell
can you see this one in the model? (would be just off to right of top and just off to left of bottom image)...
Choice
Pole! Uhh haa ...
Rod munch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLCUXyEjxHY
MERLIN
whachu doin at Lyon?
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
whachu doin at Lyon?
Feeding the kitty!
Choice
Has anyone looked into portsmouth square, next to Hilton, old hall of Justice used to be before 68. Portsmouth just because of her mouth. Columbus Tower/Sentinel Building nearby being her nose.
MERLIN
Portsmouth seems to be discussed a lot - with a number of different verses.
Choice
Choice wrote::
Has anyone looked into portsmouth square, next to Hilton, old hall of Justice used to be before 68. Portsmouth just because of her mouth. Columbus Tower/Sentinel Building nearby being her nose.
Her fingers also point to 6 and 8, 1968 was when the old Justice was demolished.
nikesparq
Choice wrote::
Has anyone looked into portsmouth square, next to Hilton, old hall of Justice used to be before 68. Portsmouth just because of her mouth. Columbus Tower/Sentinel Building nearby being her nose.
The monument for the first public school in California resembles the large rock in the top left of image 1.
Choice
nikesparq wrote::
The monument for the first public school in California resembles the large rock in the top left of image 1.
I don't get it.
Stay away from my sounds from the sky!
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2993
nikesparq
Choice wrote::
I don't get it.
Stay away from my sounds from the sky!
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2993
No worries, I was referring to the one in D4 of the wiki image.
Choice
Lets connect the dots.
Direction from GGB? Another darn clock?!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Lets connect the dots.
Direction from GGB? Another darn clock?!
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/de ... d955028324
Choice
Here's another interpretation of 11 moons:
11 words spoken on the moon
Apollo 11
This would work great for armstrong park in new orleans!
Choice
Another interpretation is that the moons are way markers of landmarks.
The larger the moon, the closer you are to the destination.
The largest moon points to the dig site, where dragon's head (lion's nose) pushes up earth.
Choice
Well, they all point at something. You just have to figure what those things are.
Rviewer1
If you could link Apollo 11 into the hunt that would be cool. As far as having 11 moons in the image it could mean that the Ace is to be counted as an 11 instead of 1 although that throw off HWY 1 as the Ace.
Choice
For example moon #3 points to an structure with dome on top.
I ranked the moons by size.
Choice
Durian wrote::
I think they are metaphor. Eleven glowing objects high above your head. The individual letters of the Ghirardelli sign, hovering over your head as you work the puzzle along the San Francisco waterfront.
How about the dots on I's?! Don't they count?
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
If you could link Apollo 11 into the hunt that would be cool. As far as having 11 moons in the image it could mean that the Ace is to be counted as an 11 instead of 1 although that throw off HWY 1 as the Ace.
The 11 words "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." I propose the "Giant" being the largest moon, the 2 steps (including leap) being the two next largest moons.
Largest moon being the destination and the two "steps" on each side leading to the final spot.
Similar to lyon's steps or Pioneer park.
Choice
Durian wrote::
I think they are metaphor. Eleven glowing objects high above your head. The individual letters of the Ghirardelli sign, hovering over your head as you work the puzzle along the San Francisco waterfront.
Why the different sizes of moons? There's a big difference between the largest and the smallest size moon.
Choice
Or Goat hill. Afterall letters under h are ILL.
Choice
Durian wrote::
If you think the answer is two, you have to explain what the moons are, why Goat Hill would be of interest to anyone, where the images of Goat Hill are in the painting, why the "Gh" and everything else in the painting are reversed, and finally how all the rest of the clues applying to Aquatic Park are irrelevant.
I explained all these before in prior posts. Please read fully, don't just scan through.
Moons are way markers related to the landmarks below them. The smaller the moon the further the landmark is to the dig site.
Reversed Gh also could mean the final destination is to the south-east of the Ghirardelli Square.
Notice the loops on top of the 2 I's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph ... co#History
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2611
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
I think they are metaphor. Eleven glowing objects high above your head. The individual letters of the Ghirardelli sign, hovering over your head as you work the puzzle along the San Francisco waterfront.
If the Gh are referring to the sign then why would we need 11 glowing moons to connect to the word Ghirardelli.? So you would need to work the puzzle at night?
Choice
I did explain that! Reversed Gh is reference to the sight being south of Ghirardelli square. As many things in this puzzle you should expect multiple meanings. i.e. the Lincoln rock formation could be an elf, Tiburon/Belvedere, a goat. Similarly Gh could refer to both Ghirardelli and Goat hill. Or even Greenwich/hill (Telegraph hill) intersection.
IMO your solution is too heavily reliant on a wall painting. That would be a lazy puzzle by the creator.
Choice
Durian wrote::
... and that somewhere in the puzzle, we'll be standing underneath the sign.
No, not somewhere in the puzzle. It must be the view from the final destination to be so predominant. It's starting to sound like the solution to "sounds from the sky" being radio waves. It will be everywhere! That wouldn't be a clue.
Choice
Nothing else is reversed. That's the normal way of digits on a Roman numeral clock.
I explained that before too on the counter-clockwise running clock theory, similar to the round-about around Columbus statue.
Also checkout the following intersection sign.
https://tinyurl.com/ycr6zgln
Choice
Characters are not reversed. It's the way they are supposed to be for a normal clock. If they were mirrored like G and h then it wouldn't make sense.
Counter clockwise running clock and yin yang show the direction of flow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ
Choice
No, mirrored is not going to work. I wish you read my old posts. You make me work double!
If mirrored 6 and 7 would be 4 and gibberish!
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2607
Choice
She's pointing to 3,4 or 6,8.
7 is position of her hand (back of) indicated by Roman 7.
MERLIN
Hey guys.....not to change the subject - but I think there may be a hidden image/s in the shadowing on the left side of James Dean's face....especially around eye/nose/chin area. Can you guys make anything out? Credit for images to Mariska.....
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1ekAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
Hey guys.....not to change the subject - but I think there may be a hidden image/s in the shadowing on the left side of James Dean's face....especially around eye/nose/chin area. Can you guys make anything out? Credit for images to Mariska.....
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1ekAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
Why did the Japanese artist put Gwen Stefani in that pic?
Spiritr
none
of
those images and illustrations were done by artist from Japan.
All the visuals in these books were provided by Byron Preiss Visual Publication, Inc.
according to the record
I
got from the UNI agency, clearly stated Futami can
Not
add or modify the materials provided.
All they have was exclusive rights on
text
translations, and the arrangements
of
copyrights Bantam granted to the Japanese publisher were limited to Dec 31st,1983.
Spiritr
none of those images and illustrations were done by artist from Japan.
All the visuals in these books were provided by Byron Preiss Visual Publication, Inc.
according to the record I got from the UNI agency, clearly stated Futami can
Not
add or modify the materials provided.
All they have was exclusive rights on
text
translations, and the arrangements of copyrights Bantam granted to the Japanese publisher were limited to Dec 31st,1983.
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
none
of
those images and illustrations were done by artist from Japan.
All the visuals in these books were provided by Byron Preiss Visual Publication, Inc.
according to the record
I
got from the UNI agency, clearly stated Futami can
Not
add or modify the materials provided.
All they have was exclusive rights on
text
translations, and the arrangements
of
copyrights Bantam granted to the Japanese publisher were limited to Dec 31st,1983.
Um....'Gwen Stefani'....but, you chose to focus on whether or not it was a 'Japanese' artist...?
lo...l...?
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
none of those images and illustrations were done by artist from Japan.
All the visuals in these books were provided by Byron Preiss Visual Publication, Inc.
according to the record I got from the UNI agency, clearly stated Futami can
Not
add or modify the materials provided.
All they have was exclusive rights on
text
translations, and the arrangements of copyrights Bantam granted to the Japanese publisher were limited to Dec 31st,1983.
Um....'Gwen Stefani'....but, you chose to focus on whether or not it was a 'Japanese' artist...?
lo...l...?
MERLIN
your'e kidding right?....it's Marilyn Monroe.
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
your'e kidding right?....it's Marilyn Monroe.
Naaaaah.....that's Gwen.
MERLIN
Mister EZ wrote::
Naaaaah.....that's Gwen.
ummm...
https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1GGuTRXXX ... XFXXXY.jpg
Spiritr
no you don't understand,
I
wanna joke along too...
but
I
can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I
'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
Spiritr
no you don't understand, I wanna joke along too...
but I can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
MERLIN
Spiritr wrote::
no you don't understand, I wanna joke along too...
but I can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
Start with curry chicken!!!
https://pics.me.me/wheres-that-gold-my- ... 678449.png
MERLIN
Spiritr wrote::
no you don't understand,
I
wanna joke along too...
but
I
can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I
'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
Start with curry chicken!!!
https://pics.me.me/wheres-that-gold-my- ... 678449.png
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
no you don't understand, I wanna joke along too...
but I can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
*sigh*
=[
Yeah, I hear ya...and, Choice will chastise me for not contributing to the efforts of slicing though the never ending spiderwebs you guys are walking into....
https://youtu.be/dC8rppRPMbc
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
no you don't understand,
I
wanna joke along too...
but
I
can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I
'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
*sigh*
=[
Yeah,
I
hear ya...and, Choice will chastise me for not contributing to the efforts
of
slicing though the never ending spiderwebs you guys are walking into....
https://youtu.be/dC8rppRPMbc
Spiritr
****OFF TOPIC ALERT****
if Choice know you versing in his image thread...
he'll flood this thread clean with gifs from Cartoon Network and Adult Swim...
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
****OFF TOPIC ALERT****
if Choice know you versing in his image thread...
he'll flood this thread clean with gifs from Cartoon Network and Adult Swim...
Right, you are. Back on topic.
"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar" - - Sigmund Freud
I
say the moons are just moons, added to enhance the artistry
of
the image.
Discuss.
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
****OFF TOPIC ALERT****
if Choice know you versing in his image thread...
he'll flood this thread clean with gifs from Cartoon Network and Adult Swim...
Right, you are. Back on topic.
"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar" - - Sigmund Freud
I say the moons are just moons, added to enhance the artistry of the image.
Discuss.
mariska
MERLIN wrote::
Hey guys.....not to change the subject - but
I
think there may be a hidden image/s in the shadowing on the left side
of
James Dean's face....especially around eye/nose/chin area. Can you guys make anything out? Credit for images to Mariska.....
https://
i
.ebayimg.com/images/g/1ekAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
I
agree with Merlin, there are strange shadows and shapes in there.
I
keep seeing a 'Is it a bird or is it a plane' white shape on Lionel Richie's cheek
And that's a weird choice
of
shadow under James Dean's lip
Maybe they're subtle hints, maybe they're not, but it can't hurt to check it out, who knows what people find !
mariska
MERLIN wrote::
Hey guys.....not to change the subject - but I think there may be a hidden image/s in the shadowing on the left side of James Dean's face....especially around eye/nose/chin area. Can you guys make anything out? Credit for images to Mariska.....
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1ekAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
I agree with Merlin, there are strange shadows and shapes in there.
I keep seeing a 'Is it a bird or is it a plane' white shape on Lionel Richie's cheek
And that's a weird choice of shadow under James Dean's lip
Maybe they're subtle hints, maybe they're not, but it can't hurt to check it out, who knows what people find !
JoshCornell
isabella duncan
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
Choice, I've had so much fun going back and forth with you tonight, I'm going to share two of the more obscure references from the walls of the Maritime Museum, beyond the five already identified. Ever wonder why the "JFK rock" has an eye? Or why the rocky outcrop on the left of the painting looks so different than the rest of the rocks? Bits and pieces of clues are all over the painting...
the top is pretty close to an image in the painting but its not in the location you have posted and it acts as a double reference,this being the weaker of the two, but still valid.
JoshCornell
Durian wrote::
Choice,
I
've had so much fun going back and forth with you tonight,
I
'm going to share two
of
the more obscure references from the walls
of
the Maritime Museum, beyond the five already identified. Ever wonder why the "JFK rock" has an eye? Or why the rocky outcrop on the left
of
the painting looks so different than the rest
of
the rocks? Bits and pieces
of
clues are all over the painting...
the top is pretty close to an image in the painting but its not in the location you have posted and it acts as a double reference,this being the weaker
of
the two, but still valid.
JoshCornell
Mister EZ wrote::
Right, you are. Back on topic.
"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar" - - Sigmund Freud
I
say the moons are just moons, added to enhance the artistry
of
the image.
Discuss.
wrong.
JoshCornell
Mister EZ wrote::
Right, you are. Back on topic.
"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar" - - Sigmund Freud
I say the moons are just moons, added to enhance the artistry of the image.
Discuss.
wrong.
Spiritr
the correct answer is :
MoOoOoOoOoOoN
Mister EZ
JoshCornell wrote::
wrong.
right.
If you zoom into the moon that Choice numbered as '10', you can clearly see Lionel Ritchie. The rest of the Commodores can be found in the other moons. That points you to Joliet which then directs you to Motown/The Motor City.
Spiritr
Mister EZ wrote::
right.
If you zoom into the moon that Choice numbered as '10', you can clearly see Lionel Ritchie. The rest of the Commodores can be found in the other moons. That points you to Joliet which then directs you to Motown/The Motor City.
But Choice also said the clock is not a compass but if you use 3 as your South and turn then 6 will be North because a compass always points to North. But because it can be used as a sundial, it's a clock.
So, I believe what Choice really meant was, when you zoom into the image, things start getting big to your eyes, and eventually you''ll only see "10" moons within your sigh, or we could simply pretend we only see "10" moons, because that's probably what BP did....what you think?
Spiritr
also, if Choice said there are 10 moons, then there's only 10 moons. That's exactly what BP did perhaps, he only instructs JJP to draw 10 moons, but he accidently draw and painted 11.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
no you don't understand, I wanna joke along too...
but I can't do it in this thread, Merlin and Choice were watching...
I'm trying to avoid being yell at by Merlin to answer questions again you know.
Trained you well Padawan
MERLIN
This is why the air smells sweet....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooncake
Choice
Mister EZ wrote::
"Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar" - - Sigmund Freud
I thought Bill Clinton said that.
Choice
Choice wrote::
For example moon #3 points to an structure with dome on top.
I ranked the moons by size.
Any ideas about the landmark with a dome on top with nip under moon 3?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
also, if Choice said there are 10 moons, then there's only 10 moons. That's exactly what BP did perhaps, he only instructs JJP to draw 10 moons, but he accidently draw and painted 11.
What are you babbling about? 10 moons?
Spiritr
I'm sorry Choice, it's EZ's fault, I didn't pay much attention, because he mentioned you
and rule number 1 in this thread was: Choice always right. So I quoted his words instead of yours.
I'll be careful next time.
Again, I like how moon #1 represent the woman's right breast. The moon has something to do with woman's menstrual cycle or something, right?
If you don't point it out I'm pretty sure nobody can.
contribution.....
Choice
Bad grasshopper... Get back to the temple.
Choice
@Fenix, if you're not getting any benefit from our brainstorming you can always remove yourself from the thread.
Choice
You "old timers" have been circle jerking eachother off for over a decade with nothing to show for except stains on your faces. Perhaps you should be open to new views and thoughts. So tired of you guys whining. Sooo unmanly!
Choice
I spent good part of my free time last weekend trying to figure the moons out and when I shared what I came up with I got nothing but sarcasm and ridicule. So I don't think I'll be wasting my time any longer with a bunch of contemptuous idiots.
Choice
Out of respect for Goldengate.
MrBackstop
I think the best ideas I've heard for the "moons" is someone mentioned Apollo 11 and it's association with San Francisco.
Durian came up with a great idea when he noticed that "Ghirardelli" has 11 letters and of course the sign lights up at night making it a good solve for the moons.
My idea was a little simpler, the white globe lights all around Ghirardelli could represent the moons but I believe there are more than 11 in total. Notice how the light source in the Image cast a shadow at the bottom of the "white globes" just as it would during the daylight hours. I see this as BP tying Ghirardelli's 11 letters of the sign to the globe lights in Ghirardelli Square. Also interesting is how the number "11" is actually in the name Ghirarde"11"i.
MERLIN
Mooncakes Bro....It's all about the Mooncakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooncake
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
You "old timers" have been circle jerking eachother off for over a decade with nothing to show for except stains on your faces. Perhaps you should be open to new views and thoughts. So tired of you guys whining. Sooo unmanly!
Not sure this is going to win you any points around here. I have a lot of new ideas as well, but I always try to present them respectfully. You have to understand that many people have their own ideas of where the casques might be, how the puzzles are constructed, and possibly have thought about the very thing you are proposing, but rejected it initially.
While the forum has rapidly changed in the past several months, much to some "old timers" chagrin, the overall culture here is to be skeptical. Many, many ideas have been discussed and many empty theories and holes in ground later, it is natural to question where people are going with their thoughts.
Spiritr
He ain't that old!
Spiritr
Goldengate wrote::
How old are you? You sound like a petulant 14 year old...
That's kinda mean, Goldengate...
drunknerds
There's a classic statistics problem with 11 white orbs. It's so famous it's literally the first thing that comes up when you google "11 white balls"
In it, it posits that 7 red balls and 11 white balls are placed in an urn. Then it gets statistically complicated so I won't bother you with my fully-formed understanding of the problem.
I wonder, is there an urn in GGP?
Spiritr
drunknerds wrote::
There's a classic statistics problem with 11 white orbs. It's so famous it's literally the first thing that comes up when you google "11 white balls"
In it, it posits that 7 red balls and 11 white balls are placed in an urn. Then it gets statistically complicated so I won't bother you with my fully-formed understanding of the problem.
I wonder, is there an urn in GGP?
Great find! The Chegg study solutions right?
But all 11 balls in the image are
BLUE
, and they all sized differently.
drunknerds
Spiritr wrote::
Great find! The Chegg study solutions right?
But all 11 balls in the image are
BLUE
, and they all sized differently.
Whoa, I think we may have solved a new clue: I just looked "blue balls" up in the dictionary, and there was a picture of
The Secret
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
Whoa, I think we may have solved a new clue: I just looked "blue balls" up in the dictionary, and there was a picture of
The Secret
Really you looked up "blue balls" DUDE you must be the A STUD, to have to look up "blue balls"
sorry couldn't couldn't
help it!
Mister EZ
Durian wrote::
I think the lady's mouth is in the shape of a fish—head to the left, fins above and below, tail fin to the right:
Not sure I agree with that assessment.
Zoomed in like that, it kinda looks like a handlebar mustache...or, a slug.
(In my opinion.)
gManTexas
I still say that some of you are zooming too much and over complicating things. I personally do not believe this is how the puzzles work. The images gets you in the general area and then the verse walks you through to the casque location.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I get your position re: zooming in can over-complicate things. I'm just zooming in to make it more obvious. At book size and with a magnifying glass, you'd be able to see it no problem, be it a fish or EZ's slug. Either (or neither) way, some of the info around her mouth appears called out intentionally, like the drooping part of the lip on the left hand side. IMO, it calls for a closer look. And I see no reason why using a magnifying glass would be considered off limits by Preiss...
I have to disagree that the the images are only intended to get you in the general area, and then the verses kick in to lead to the casque. I think pretty much each verse has something in the image to corroborate that you are following the verses properly. This was really apparent to me as I walked through my own solve in SF last week. Here is my argument: Trying to think like the puzzle creators, if I was making a puzzle with verses and an image, and the verses physically moved people through a puzzle in the real world, I believe I would leave clues in the image at each stop (verse) along the way. The clues would reinforce the verses and tell people they are on the right track. For instance in my solve, there is the "Gh" for Ghirardelli. Then you move to the street corner for the "high posts/Education and Justice..." verse, and the USGS symbols match your view of the three high points on Alcatraz and the peak of Angel Island. Then the image provides a cable car bell and the compass pointing north for the intersection of Hyde and North Point St., etc...
Regardless of whether my solve is correct, this also appears to be how things work in the Cleveland and Chicago solves as well.
The issue here may be that you are focusing on San Francisco alone. That may not be true, but it seems to be the puzzle you are working on. There is so much abstraction in Image 1 that it is easy to get a case of pareidolia and have the urge to find all sorts of details. As different as all of the images in the book are, I believe there is a common pattern that was applied. Some are easier than others, but the Author and Illustrator only had so much time to devote to this. I can guarantee that the collective amount of time people have spent trying to dissect The Secret greatly dwarfs the amount of time put into making it.
I take it to heart when BP said he expected these to be solved quickly. Maybe not in year, but quickly. That to me says that we have all over complicated things. I also blame technology. The sheer volume of information and photo editing capabilities available now has corrupted and changed the way we would have approached these puzzles in 1982. I would even argue that if you are local to one of the sites, try solving by going to the library and using a magnifying glass and lots of walking around. I suspect that this would be more successful than scrubbing the internet for the most obscure connections that were either not common knowledge or readily accessible via a library or historical society.
This does not mean that forums like this cannot be helpful, they are a tool just like anything else and have to be used properly.
Back to my earlier point, please have a look at one of the more plain images and try to apply the same approach as you have for Image 1. You'll quickly see that it does not work. So I go back to what I said, use the image to get yourself in the area, heck most of the groundwork has already been done by your predecessors. All that is required is to add up the simple clues and see how the verse matches you up to the location.
EDIT: I don't believe there is a one to one correlation between the Verse and Image, as in, there should be a visual confirmer for each clue in the verse. I think the associations are more elastic than that. Let's take Image 1 for example since we are in this thread: You have an Asian women with a dress which by all accounts shows us a loose map of GGP. To me this is a strong indication that we should look in San Francisco. Perhaps the casque is in GGP, but not necessarily. We also have other motifs in the image that confirm we should be in SF, but not necessarily the exact location. There are cable cars all over the place in SF. There are stone doors all over the place in SF. There are lots of details like arches or roses that could be anywhere. Some people believe there is one solid visual confirmer for the dig spot. I tend to agree, like the fence in Chicago, etc. But to dig deep in the Image to shoehorn things into a solve that doesn't just flow is the wrong approach in my opinion. Also, some things in the images are just throw aways or filler material, and do not play into the solution at all, and exist for artistic purposes.
gManTexas
Durian, part of the issue is that most, if not all of the Images are modeled after famous works of art, so in order to replicate the overall feeling of the original work, JJP had to add a lot, or in some cases very little detail.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
When I was in SF last week, the Maritime Museum's bottom floor was closed, so I didn't get the chance to check out what is on display there. I believe however that it features an antique Mark V diving suit. These suits have large helmets with round protruding plates. Check one out here:
https://www.photostocksource.com/images/industrial-nautical-marine-maritime/160391055-mark-v-deep-sea-diving-suit-lg.jpg
It looks to me that JJP took the straight vertical lines featured in da Vinci's
Madonna of the Rocks
and added a round plate to each of the two dome features in the painting, hinting at a dive helmet. Here's the form from the da Vinci painting:
And here are the round protrusions in the image:
Less subtle is the object to the left of the two domes, which looks like it could easily be the glove of a Mark V diving suit, with the fingers clearly separated from the thumb. This image is from the Maritime Museum. Check out especially the shadow of the right hand, which echoes the shadow of the object in JJP's painting:
I'm a doubter that people are required to go inside of places that charge admission to solve these puzzles, although I'm not completely against it. Do they charge? Did they charge to get in in 1982?
gManTexas
Well, would you look at that! We seem to have a functional forum again!
Durian, I like a lot of the work you've done. I think the personal goal is to prove to yourself whether your theories work or not. I have had many ideas that I cross checked from many different angles and a lot dissolved, but some stuck. I definitely think a great approach is to develop a solid working theory and then put it aside, maybe even look at some of the other puzzles, especially read some of the other Image and Verse threads. Kind of like scouting the other teams to see the talent and trick plays. Then try with fresh eyes, maybe even a new approach. If you keep coming back to the same answer, then you are probably getting close.
Keep up the good fight!
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
A final thought on the exact match vs. "caricature and essence" in the SF painting...
Many, many people think the woman's dress represents Golden Gate Park. Fine, no problem. But I'd argue that what people see as a correlation to GGP is absolutely not an exact match. Aside from being roughly a rectangle, they don't really match at all, IMO. I'd argue that people who see the flare in the dress as proof we're looking at Golden Gate Park are doing exactly what I'm doing when I look at things in the painting that in their essence correlate to images around Aquatic Park. They are viewing the flare and the winding dragon (winding roads of the park) as representing the
essence
of the park.
I am absolutely OK with this, but to be clear, we're looking at a possible match based on the essence of something, not based upon identifying an exact match. Using the tiles in the dragon to represent city blocks is similar. It's a fine and quite possibly correct metaphor, but absolutely not an exact match to reality.
It seems to me metaphor and caricature are absolutely part of these puzzles, and IMO we should be open to them, especially given all the years that have passed with what seems to me to be a stunning scarcity of exact image matches being found.
I agree. Some things are representative. I will throw this at you though, there are almost perfect map overlays in the Images. GGP is not one of them.
Spiritr
gManTexas wrote::
I agree. Some things are representative. I will throw this at you though, there are almost perfect map overlays in the Images. GGP is not one of them.
Exactly, it's just a signature or icon for San Francisco. Not the buried site.
Just like what we see in Image 4 and 5, these objects were city identifiers
take a look at the maps below,from the city identifier to the casques buried site.
rexx
Just a thought, in 1981 if you started talking to me about the "Dragon", I would have assumed you were talking about Bruce Lee. As in "Enter the Dragon" and "The Way of the Dragon". Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco in the year of the Dragon. There is a "Bruce Lee" tour of SF from one of the local tour companies.
That said, Bruce didn't spend much time in SF. He spent most of his life in Seattle and is buried in Seattle next to his son, Brandon Lee.
Did you know Seattle used to be called "The City of Clocks" because they had a large number of street clocks.
maltedfalcon
rexx wrote::
Just a thought, in 1981 if you started talking to me about the "Dragon", I would have assumed you were talking about Bruce Lee. As in "Enter the Dragon" and "The Way of the Dragon". Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco in the year of the Dragon. There is a "Bruce Lee" tour of SF from one of the local tour companies.
That said, Bruce didn't spend much time in SF. He spent most of his life in Seattle and is buried in Seattle next to his son, Brandon Lee.
.
Bruce Lee is much more associated with Oakland than SF.
MrBackstop
Many of these Images have two numbers that give us latitude and longitude. As I have studied these I realized that some of the second sets of numbers that people say are the other latitude and longitude coordinates, actually have two meanings. Thanks to Macfos for getting me to see these possibilities months ago.
For example in San Francisco the 122 and the 123, ....the 123 is not only the next longitude coordinate in line but also a zip code clue for Fort Mason 94123 which is the Western border for the Aquatic Park.
Also when it comes to the number 38 in our Russian girl's hair, that's the next latitude number in line for San Francisco but it is also important to another border of the Aquatic Park. The South End Rowing Club used to be located on the South End of San Francisco until the boathouse was moved to where it sits today on Jefferson Street in 1938.
MrBackstop
Great point Durian. Negative space in these puzzles give incredible clues if you take the time to see them. Shadows or empty space can give us great information.
I mean, just look at the empty space in n the flower of Image 9, that's a perfect example.
Spiritr
MrBackstop wrote::
Many of these Images have two numbers that give us latitude and longitude. As I have studied these I realized that some of the second sets of numbers that people say are the other latitude and longitude coordinates, actually have two meanings. Thanks to Macfos for getting me to see these possibilities months ago.
Unknown:
For example in San Francisco the 122 and the 123, ....the 123 is not only the next longitude coordinate in line but also a zip code clue for Fort Mason 94123 which is the Western border for the Aquatic Park.
Unknown:
Also when it comes to the number 38 in our Russian girl's hair, that's the next latitude number in line for San Francisco but it is also important to another border of the Aquatic Park. The South End Rowing Club used to be located on the South End of San Francisco until the boathouse was moved to where it sits today on Jefferson Street in 1938.
Beside those numbers, many different objects and words in the book have multiple meanings as well.
If that's the case, why excludes the 94122 which is the Inner Sunset district?
How you know she's Russian?
What about 37, any historic events in 1937 that can apply in favor to your solutions?
Spiritr
My solution for the numbers are simple
122 and 123 are both Roman numerals , parallel and vertical beneath the mirrored letter G and h .
this set of numbers, were the longitudes(Greenwich).
MrBackstop
I agree, many objects and numbers have multiple meanings that's one of the cool things about these puzzles.
No need for me to include 94122, it doesn't border the Aquatic Park. Just like for anyone that believes in the GGP location there would be no reason to use 94123.
I refer to her as Russian because she looks just like a Russian lady whose son I train. And mainly because she is dressed in a bath robe that she would wear in the Bath house (Maritime Museum) which is part of the Aquatic Park next to Russian Hill.
Of course the 37 has multiple meanings with latitude and what I believe most of the San Francisco searchers realize, that 1937 was when the Golden Gate Bridge opened
Mister EZ
Spiritr wrote::
How you know she's Russian??
From verse 7 thread, this also explains where that opinion comes from, right or wrong:
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=142209#p142209
Egbert
From the Litany of the Jewels in the book:
"From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon."
If you google Cathay, you will see it means "China."
Image 1 is the one relating to China, so in my opinion, she's not Russian. The Russian lady is in Image 12.
Mister EZ
Egbert wrote::
From the Litany of the Jewels in the book:
"From far Cathay, the dragon's Pearl:
Chaste, perfect as the silver moon."
If you google Cathay, you will see it means "China."
Image 1 is the one relating to China, so in my opinion, she's not Russian. The Russian lady is in Image 12.
Yup...that's my opinion too, because of the LoJ and the pearl in the image....the topaz in image 12 points it towards the Russian immigration theme.
MrBackstop
Guys, I understand that the cathy means China and is the dragon's pearl. But that doesn't mean the woman can't be Russian. I attribute this to the area of the Aquatic Park being at the base of Russian Hill.
If you believe she is Chinese that's fine too, but doesn't change my interpretation of the clues. The Pearl is clearly a reference to China and a great deal of Chinese immigrants came here from Angel Island thru Pier 43 (stone wall's door) and into San Francisco. So whether she's Russian, Chinese, Korean,.....doesn't seem to really matter.
Mister EZ
MrBackstop wrote::
Guys, I understand that the cathy means China and is the dragon's pearl. But that doesn't mean the woman can't be Russian. I attribute this to the area of the Aquatic Park being at the base of Russian Hill.
If you believe she is Chinese that's fine too, but doesn't change my interpretation of the clues. The Pearl is clearly a reference to China and a great deal of Chinese immigrants came here from Angel Island thru Pier 43 (stone wall's door) and into San Francisco. So whether she's Russian, Chinese, Korean,.....doesn't seem to really matter.
Well, restating something that has been the 'usual', conventional interpretation (up to now), but that doesn't match your interpretations, isn't intended to be a personal attack....I hope that's not the way you took it.
You come up with your own ideas and follow them no matter what anybody else says....which is why I've haven't really stepped in previously to say "I think you're wrong" or "I disagree". You wouldn't listen, no matter the circumstances. And, that's okay....you're not the only guy who does that.
So, by all means, follow your own interpretations.
Please, don't get upset when somebody disagrees.
Mister EZ
Durian, I'm not in the camp that believes that things in the puzzles have (or, we're intended to have) multiple meanings. But, I believe that Mr. Backstop falls in that group of searchers....so, that absolutely fits with what he's saying and his interpretations. It allows him to reaffirm his assertion that the blue eyes indicate that she's Russian, even though the bulk of the image is inherently following a Chinese or Asian motif.
MrBackstop
Oh Mr EZ you completely misread me. I'm not upset at all my man. I'm just explaining a point I had. If it came off as otherwise I apologize. I used to be upset or even offended when people would disagree or try to destroy my point of view. That's not the case at all anymore.
I understand that some people believe there are multiple meanings for clues and some do not. I also understand that some people think one number means one thing while I believe there is a lot of flexibility in a number meaning several things. There are also some who believe the blue highlights are nothing more than artistic elements and, that the location of the jewel the in the Image is not a clue. I happen to see the opposite. And to me, this is an advantage to those that close their minds to this possibility.
Until a casque is dug up again that doesn't matter. So whatever brainstorming you want to do I'm ready. I don't take things personally and you're not going to offend me. I worked with Josh, I can work with anybody.
nikesparq
maltedfalcon wrote::
Bruce Lee is much more associated with Oakland than SF.
Speaking
of
Oakland, has anyone studied the downtown Oakland/Lake Merritt area? Most
of
the SF Chinese community migrated to Oakland Chinatown after the 1906 earthquake. There is also a Jackson Street and a few other connections.
Joe Shoong emigrated to the United States from Zhongshan, Guangdong, China when he was 18 or 19 years old (1897 or 1898) and was a rags to riches story. He was a Chinese-American businessman and philanthropist who founded the National Dollar Stores and supported many Chinese organizations. Covering Hawaii and seven western states, by 1959 there were fifty-four stores worth $12 million, with 700 employees. He was one
of
the first Chinese-American millionaires and at one time, according to Time Magazine, was the "richest, best-known Chinese business man in the U.S." He had other business interests and many philanthropic projects for the Chinese community. (summarized from Wikipedia)
I
have a fun "solve", but admittedly many
of
the connections did not exist in 1982. Since the Japanese version
of
the book referred to "fairy's" treasure, there is one place that would be an obvious connection (
of
which the Shoong Foundation has been a major supporter over the years).
I
imagined that BP could have designed Image 1/Verse 7 with the younger audience in mind. Note that a Lunar New Year celebration is held here every year. All
of
the images below were found on Yelp, Google Images and social media. Enjoy!
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Connection #1: "Sing a Song
of
Sixpence" ("Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie. ...The queen was in the parlour, Eating bread and honey...")
Connection #2: Sugar Plum Tree
Not far away
High posts are three
There are/were three sets with high wooden posts, and perhaps they were all visible from one vantage point.
Education and Justice
For all to see
Sounds from the sky
Connection #1: Hidden speakers in flowers and trees
Connection #2: Macaws
Near ace is high
Based on an old park map, the card maze was in close proximity to the Crusoe set.
Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of
Twain's attention
No strong connections yet, but a park map from the late 70's/early 80's might reveal something. The park entrance is on the north end, so "running north" would lead you out
of
the park.
Giant pole
Giant step
Note the mirrored "D"-shaped planters
There are several image resemblances (and many dragons), but no exact matches. One picture
I
wasn't able to find was the ticket window area, which is lined with small mosaic tiles. Not sure if there is/was any images in the tile design.
nikesparq
maltedfalcon wrote::
Bruce Lee is much more associated with Oakland than SF.
Speaking of Oakland, has anyone studied the downtown Oakland/Lake Merritt area? Most of the SF Chinese community migrated to Oakland Chinatown after the 1906 earthquake. There is also a Jackson Street and a few other connections.
Joe Shoong emigrated to the United States from Zhongshan, Guangdong, China when he was 18 or 19 years old (1897 or 1898) and was a rags to riches story. He was a Chinese-American businessman and philanthropist who founded the National Dollar Stores and supported many Chinese organizations. Covering Hawaii and seven western states, by 1959 there were fifty-four stores worth $12 million, with 700 employees. He was one of the first Chinese-American millionaires and at one time, according to Time Magazine, was the "richest, best-known Chinese business man in the U.S." He had other business interests and many philanthropic projects for the Chinese community. (summarized from Wikipedia)
I have a fun "solve", but admittedly many of the connections did not exist in 1982. Since the Japanese version of the book referred to "fairy's" treasure, there is one place that would be an obvious connection (of which the Shoong Foundation has been a major supporter over the years). I imagined that BP could have designed Image 1/Verse 7 with the younger audience in mind. Note that a Lunar New Year celebration is held here every year. All of the images below were found on Yelp, Google Images and social media. Enjoy!
At stone wall's door
The air smells sweet
Connection #1: "Sing a Song of Sixpence" ("Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie. ...The queen was in the parlour, Eating bread and honey...")
Connection #2: Sugar Plum Tree
Not far away
High posts are three
There are/were three sets with high wooden posts, and perhaps they were all visible from one vantage point.
Education and Justice
For all to see
Sounds from the sky
Connection #1: Hidden speakers in flowers and trees
Connection #2: Macaws
Near ace is high
Based on an old park map, the card maze was in close proximity to the Crusoe set.
Running north, but first across
In jewel's direction
Is an object
Of Twain's attention
No strong connections yet, but a park map from the late 70's/early 80's might reveal something. The park entrance is on the north end, so "running north" would lead you out of the park.
Giant pole
Giant step
Note the mirrored "D"-shaped planters
There are several image resemblances (and many dragons), but no exact matches. One picture I wasn't able to find was the ticket window area, which is lined with small mosaic tiles. Not sure if there is/was any images in the tile design.
Choice
Getting down to basics.
Here are a few clues that might set you on the right path:
• I start from Dragon’s Gate in Chinatown since it’s the simplest interpretation of “At stone wall's door”
• Just south of the gate is Hyatt Union Square where The Fountain is located; perhaps the inspiration for the Lombard street (city identifier)/dragon painting.
• “High posts are three” takes me down to Post Street, play on word posts. There at Union Square Victory stands high atop of a globe holding a trident in her left hand. Looking at the painting, there’s a trident looking thing touching her left hand. Trident, three teeth (number of teeth showing in dragon’s mouth), three posts up high. Dragons (sea serpents) and spirals all over the base of the Victory (sweet smell of success).
• Powel street cable car runs by the square; Powell turn-table is near by.
• Next to the Union Square is Morris building with spiral interior (Xanadu gallery), the only Frank Lloyd Wright building in SF. The building has a unique brick arched entrance. Not related, Frank Morris was a prisoner escapee from Alcatraz. That may explain bars on the gate in the painting.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf072.asp
• Focusing on the woman’s left hand you’ll find an eye formed by her lower 3 fingers similar to all Seeing Eye, eye of providence, similar to back of a one dollar bill on top of a pyramid. She’s pointing to a specific street block. If you follow that direction from the painting, 2 X 4 blocks away from the Dragon’s Gate you get to Transamerica Pyramid, Ace is high.
• The three way points, Union Square, the Dragon’s Gate and Transamerica line up. Use a mason’s tool, a compass to draw a circle with the Transamerica being the center and the Dewey Monument being the pencil and you get your option of dig sites: Pioneer park (Coit), Washington Square (Twain’s attention being the twin towers and president Washington on dollar bill) or Ina Coolbrith park
Choice
Getting down to basics.
Here are a few clues that might set you on the right path:
•
I
start from Dragon’s Gate in Chinatown since it’s the simplest interpretation
of
“At stone wall's door”
• Just south
of
the gate is Hyatt Union Square where The Fountain is located; perhaps the inspiration for the Lombard street (city identifier)/dragon painting.
• “High posts are three” takes me down to Post Street, play on word posts. There at Union Square Victory stands high atop
of
a globe holding a trident in her left hand. Looking at the painting, there’s a trident looking thing touching her left hand. Trident, three teeth (number
of
teeth showing in dragon’s mouth), three posts up high. Dragons (sea serpents) and spirals all over the base
of
the Victory (sweet smell
of
success).
• Powel street cable car runs by the square; Powell turn-table is near by.
• Next to the Union Square is Morris building with spiral interior (Xanadu gallery), the only Frank Lloyd Wright building in SF. The building has a unique brick arched entrance. Not related, Frank Morris was a prisoner escapee from Alcatraz. That may explain bars on the gate in the painting.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf072.asp
• Focusing on the woman’s left hand you’ll find an eye formed by her lower 3 fingers similar to all Seeing Eye, eye
of
providence, similar to back
of
a one dollar bill on top
of
a pyramid. She’s pointing to a specific street block. If you follow that direction from the painting, 2 X 4 blocks away from the Dragon’s Gate you get to Transamerica Pyramid, Ace is high.
• The three way points, Union Square, the Dragon’s Gate and Transamerica line up. Use a mason’s tool, a compass to draw a circle with the Transamerica being the center and the Dewey Monument being the pencil and you get your option
of
dig sites: Pioneer park (Coit), Washington Square (Twain’s attention being the twin towers and president Washington on dollar bill) or Ina Coolbrith park
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Getting down to basics.
Here are a few clues that might set you on the right path:
•
I
start from Dragon’s Gate in Chinatown since it’s the simplest interpretation
of
“At stone wall's door”
• Just south
of
the gate is Hyatt Union Square where The Fountain is located; perhaps the inspiration for the Lombard street (city identifier)/dragon painting.
• “High posts are three” takes me down to Post Street, play on word posts. There at Union Square Victory stands high atop
of
a globe holding a trident in her left hand. Looking at the painting, there’s a trident looking thing touching her left hand. Trident, three teeth (number
of
teeth showing in dragon’s mouth), three posts up high. Dragons (sea serpents) and spirals all over the base
of
the Victory (sweet smell
of
success).
• Powel street cable car runs by the square; Powell turn-table is near by.
• Next to the Union Square is Morris building with spiral interior (Xanadu gallery), the only Frank Lloyd Wright building in SF. The building has a unique brick arched entrance. Not related, Frank Morris was a prisoner escapee from Alcatraz. That may explain bars on the gate in the painting.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf072.asp
• Focusing on the woman’s left hand you’ll find an eye formed by her lower 3 fingers similar to all Seeing Eye, eye
of
providence, similar to back
of
a one dollar bill on top
of
a pyramid. She’s pointing to a specific street block. If you follow that direction from the painting, 2 X 4 blocks away from the Dragon’s Gate you get to Transamerica Pyramid, Ace is high.
• The three way points, Union Square, the Dragon’s Gate and Transamerica line up. Use a mason’s tool, a compass to draw a circle with the Transamerica being the center and the Dewey Monument being the pencil and you get your option
of
dig sites: Pioneer park (Coit), Washington Square (Twain’s attention being the twin towers and president Washington on dollar bill) or Ina Coolbrith park
I
like a lot
of
this, but how can we be left with three choices? Is that a nod to your userid, lol?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Getting down to basics.
Here are a few clues that might set you on the right path:
• I start from Dragon’s Gate in Chinatown since it’s the simplest interpretation of “At stone wall's door”
• Just south of the gate is Hyatt Union Square where The Fountain is located; perhaps the inspiration for the Lombard street (city identifier)/dragon painting.
• “High posts are three” takes me down to Post Street, play on word posts. There at Union Square Victory stands high atop of a globe holding a trident in her left hand. Looking at the painting, there’s a trident looking thing touching her left hand. Trident, three teeth (number of teeth showing in dragon’s mouth), three posts up high. Dragons (sea serpents) and spirals all over the base of the Victory (sweet smell of success).
• Powel street cable car runs by the square; Powell turn-table is near by.
• Next to the Union Square is Morris building with spiral interior (Xanadu gallery), the only Frank Lloyd Wright building in SF. The building has a unique brick arched entrance. Not related, Frank Morris was a prisoner escapee from Alcatraz. That may explain bars on the gate in the painting.
https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf072.asp
• Focusing on the woman’s left hand you’ll find an eye formed by her lower 3 fingers similar to all Seeing Eye, eye of providence, similar to back of a one dollar bill on top of a pyramid. She’s pointing to a specific street block. If you follow that direction from the painting, 2 X 4 blocks away from the Dragon’s Gate you get to Transamerica Pyramid, Ace is high.
• The three way points, Union Square, the Dragon’s Gate and Transamerica line up. Use a mason’s tool, a compass to draw a circle with the Transamerica being the center and the Dewey Monument being the pencil and you get your option of dig sites: Pioneer park (Coit), Washington Square (Twain’s attention being the twin towers and president Washington on dollar bill) or Ina Coolbrith park
I like a lot of this, but how can we be left with three choices? Is that a nod to your userid, lol?
prospector
Wow,
I
really like all
of
the dialogue happening right now.
I
am trying to write down a potential solve and it is so difficult.
I
appreciate all those who have work at this hunt.
I
guess
I
would start by saying
I
would enter Golden Gate Park at the Senior Center and head to John F. Kennedy Drive.
I
didn't see the Crossover Drive as a clue.
I
saw the divided JFK Drive as part
of
the image.
I
would go toward the Chain
of
Lakes Drive.
I
believe the North Lake shape is revealed in Image 1. This is about as far as
I
have gone on my quest.
I
am having a great time but still have a lot
of
work to do.
I
have been to Golden Gate Park four times in the last month.
I
have seen evidence
of
digs from others. How cool is that?
I
tried to add an attachment
of
a photo
I
took
of
the Senior Center Dragon/Griffin on the front
of
the building but it wouldn't upload.
I
think it is on this site somewhere.
I
will be going to San Francisco tomorrow to do some research.
I
did find some pretty good photos online and started a log
of
what
I
have found.
I
know there has been a lot
of
changes to Golden Gate Park over the years.
I
just have to find out if a flag poll was around in '79 through the time Preiss may have been in the Park. No, not the one that was at the Senior Center.
prospector
Wow, I really like all of the dialogue happening right now. I am trying to write down a potential solve and it is so difficult. I appreciate all those who have work at this hunt.
I guess I would start by saying I would enter Golden Gate Park at the Senior Center and head to John F. Kennedy Drive. I didn't see the Crossover Drive as a clue. I saw the divided JFK Drive as part of the image. I would go toward the Chain of Lakes Drive. I believe the North Lake shape is revealed in Image 1. This is about as far as I have gone on my quest. I am having a great time but still have a lot of work to do. I have been to Golden Gate Park four times in the last month. I have seen evidence of digs from others. How cool is that?
I tried to add an attachment of a photo I took of the Senior Center Dragon/Griffin on the front of the building but it wouldn't upload. I think it is on this site somewhere. I will be going to San Francisco tomorrow to do some research. I did find some pretty good photos online and started a log of what I have found. I know there has been a lot of changes to Golden Gate Park over the years. I just have to find out if a flag poll was around in '79 through the time Preiss may have been in the Park. No, not the one that was at the Senior Center.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
Wow,
I
really like all
of
the dialogue happening right now.
I
am trying to write down a potential solve and it is so difficult.
I
appreciate all those who have work at this hunt.
I
guess
I
would start by saying
I
would enter Golden Gate Park at the Senior Center and head to John F. Kennedy Drive.
I
didn't see the Crossover Drive as a clue.
I
saw the divided JFK Drive as part
of
the image.
I
would go toward the Chain
of
Lakes Drive.
I
believe the North Lake shape is revealed in Image 1. This is about as far as
I
have gone on my quest.
I
am having a great time but still have a lot
of
work to do.
I
have been to Golden Gate Park four times in the last month.
I
have seen evidence
of
digs from others. How cool is that?
I
tried to add an attachment
of
a photo
I
took
of
the Senior Center Dragon/Griffin on the front
of
the building but it wouldn't upload.
I
think it is on this site somewhere.
I
will be going to San Francisco tomorrow to do some research.
I
did find some pretty good photos online and started a log
of
what
I
have found.
I
know there has been a lot
of
changes to Golden Gate Park over the years.
I
just have to find out if a flag poll was around in '79 through the time Preiss may have been in the Park. No, not the one that was at the Senior Center.
A lot
of
the work that you are doing has been posted. You can see the photos and analysis if you go back in the thread or use the function.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
Wow, I really like all of the dialogue happening right now. I am trying to write down a potential solve and it is so difficult. I appreciate all those who have work at this hunt.
I guess I would start by saying I would enter Golden Gate Park at the Senior Center and head to John F. Kennedy Drive. I didn't see the Crossover Drive as a clue. I saw the divided JFK Drive as part of the image. I would go toward the Chain of Lakes Drive. I believe the North Lake shape is revealed in Image 1. This is about as far as I have gone on my quest. I am having a great time but still have a lot of work to do. I have been to Golden Gate Park four times in the last month. I have seen evidence of digs from others. How cool is that?
I tried to add an attachment of a photo I took of the Senior Center Dragon/Griffin on the front of the building but it wouldn't upload. I think it is on this site somewhere. I will be going to San Francisco tomorrow to do some research. I did find some pretty good photos online and started a log of what I have found. I know there has been a lot of changes to Golden Gate Park over the years. I just have to find out if a flag poll was around in '79 through the time Preiss may have been in the Park. No, not the one that was at the Senior Center.
A lot of the work that you are doing has been posted. You can see the photos and analysis if you go back in the thread or use the function.
Goonie68
I
believe word play is at work here.... Women/Dragon is the fairy for image 1, with an arched arm and fingers pointing to 43 1/2 (which the Ferry Arch 43 is next too) This is where the tour boats docked, (Alcatraz, bay tours) Pointing out 43 1/2 pier, which is the only half pier on the Warf. This positions lines you up with Education and Justice for all to see.
chemical symbol aluminum
Goonie68
I believe word play is at work here.... Women/Dragon is the fairy for image 1, with an arched arm and fingers pointing to 43 1/2 (which the Ferry Arch 43 is next too) This is where the tour boats docked, (Alcatraz, bay tours) Pointing out 43 1/2 pier, which is the only half pier on the Warf. This positions lines you up with Education and Justice for all to see.
chemical symbol aluminum
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
Personally,
I
'm still leaning toward the fact that one sleeve has 18 squares and the other has 20 -- and the sleeves themselves are situated right between 18th and 20th Aves at the Western edge
of
Stow Lake... she's pointing at her sleeves, saying "hey, check out these "blocks."
... she's not pointing at any one block, she's literally pointing at her sleeves to draw our attention to them.
Goldengate wrote::
So many different theories about the meaning behind the blocks on her sleeves -- we almost need a sub thread to keep track
of
them all.
I
do like simplicity and straight-forward readings.
I
endorse this.
I
hope not!
catherwood
Goldengate wrote::
Personally, I'm still leaning toward the fact that one sleeve has 18 squares and the other has 20 -- and the sleeves themselves are situated right between 18th and 20th Aves at the Western edge of Stow Lake... she's pointing at her sleeves, saying "hey, check out these "blocks."
... she's not pointing at any one block, she's literally pointing at her sleeves to draw our attention to them.
Goldengate wrote::
So many different theories about the meaning behind the blocks on her sleeves -- we almost need a sub thread to keep track of them all.
I do like simplicity and straight-forward readings.
I endorse this.
I hope not!
Goonie68
Goldengate wrote::
So many different theories about the meaning behind the blocks on her sleeves -- we almost need a sub thread to keep track
of
them all.
Personally,
I
'm still leaning toward the fact that one sleeve has 18 squares and the other has 20 -- and the sleeves themselves are situated right between 18th and 20th Aves at the Western edge
of
Stow Lake -- maybe it's just that simple... that she's pointing at her sleeves, saying "hey, check out these "blocks."
There are so many theories as to which blocks her fingers are actually pointing to: three or four or half way between one and another, etc... maybe that's on purpose in a way... she's not pointing at any one block, she's literally pointing at her sleeves to draw our attention to them.
It seems (to me) if we were supposed to look at the individual block that she may or may not be pointing at, JJP would have painted the exact same number
of
squares on each sleeve so we'd know exactly how many up, down etc. Or he'd have her pointing exactly to a block so there was no doubt.
That's just me speculating, but kind
of
interesting that the blocks are so easy to count and more defined in a way than much the rest
of
the image. They seem to be calling out for attention, as if they were solid "in our face" clues.
GG,
I
totally get your view about the two sleeves, 18 and 20 blocks, if those numbers are what we need to decipher, then we would not need her fingers pointing to a specific block or blocks or lines. IMO this is one's perspective on a point in the image tied to an physical location and object, which sets up the next line in the verse, Education and Justice.
I
guess it all depends on how your looking at the clues and what the end game is? The one thing that
I
keep going back to is that the verse and image are very specific too areas or physical objects.
Goonie68
Goldengate wrote::
So many different theories about the meaning behind the blocks on her sleeves -- we almost need a sub thread to keep track of them all.
Personally, I'm still leaning toward the fact that one sleeve has 18 squares and the other has 20 -- and the sleeves themselves are situated right between 18th and 20th Aves at the Western edge of Stow Lake -- maybe it's just that simple... that she's pointing at her sleeves, saying "hey, check out these "blocks."
There are so many theories as to which blocks her fingers are actually pointing to: three or four or half way between one and another, etc... maybe that's on purpose in a way... she's not pointing at any one block, she's literally pointing at her sleeves to draw our attention to them.
It seems (to me) if we were supposed to look at the individual block that she may or may not be pointing at, JJP would have painted the exact same number of squares on each sleeve so we'd know exactly how many up, down etc. Or he'd have her pointing exactly to a block so there was no doubt.
That's just me speculating, but kind of interesting that the blocks are so easy to count and more defined in a way than much the rest of the image. They seem to be calling out for attention, as if they were solid "in our face" clues.
GG, I totally get your view about the two sleeves, 18 and 20 blocks, if those numbers are what we need to decipher, then we would not need her fingers pointing to a specific block or blocks or lines. IMO this is one's perspective on a point in the image tied to an physical location and object, which sets up the next line in the verse, Education and Justice. I guess it all depends on how your looking at the clues and what the end game is? The one thing that I keep going back to is that the verse and image are very specific too areas or physical objects.
gManTexas
My thought is that the blocks will only become clear, if ever, once the casque is located. Then someone can say, ahhhh, THAT"S what he meant. It really is a dumb clue to put in the middle of a city with blocks everywhere.
gManTexas
My thought is that the blocks will only become clear, if ever, once the casque is located. Then someone can say, ahhhh, THAT"S what he meant. It really is a dumb clue to put in the middle
of
a city with blocks everywhere.
Choice
Another interpretation
of
the left sleeve blocks:
She's pointing to the seventh set
of
blocks from bottom. The starting point being Dragon's Gate.
Back
of
her hand reads 7 Roman numeral from her POV.
Andrew Jackson, 7th president.
https://tinyurl.com/yar9bjzt
Choice
Another interpretation of the left sleeve blocks:
She's pointing to the seventh set of blocks from bottom. The starting point being Dragon's Gate.
Back of her hand reads 7 Roman numeral from her POV.
Andrew Jackson, 7th president.
https://tinyurl.com/yar9bjzt
Goonie68
Yes Gman is correct in his assessment that only when a casque is pulled out
of
the ground, then the theory becomes a solve, until that happens it's good to see ideas and theory's being discussed.
I
would like to see more connections to the clues, like GG posted, how does this clue lead into the next clue with the verse walking you to each destination, with image. KEEP up the good work!!!
Goonie68
Yes Gman is correct in his assessment that only when a casque is pulled out of the ground, then the theory becomes a solve, until that happens it's good to see ideas and theory's being discussed. I would like to see more connections to the clues, like GG posted, how does this clue lead into the next clue with the verse walking you to each destination, with image. KEEP up the good work!!!
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
Yes Gman is correct in his assessment that only when a casque is pulled out
of
the ground, then the theory becomes a solve, until that happens it's good to see ideas and theory's being discussed.
I
would like to see more connections to the clues, like GG posted, how does this clue lead into the next clue with the verse walking you to each destination, with image. KEEP up the good work!!!
I
can see this, but to me his statement means there are just so many ways to interpret a finger pointing to the middle
of
two blocks and... another finger pointing to the middle
of
two blocks... that there is no way to determine which
of
the million ways to interpret this is correct, until we know where it is.
If you lay a map
of
GGP over the dress, her right hand is pointing exactly at the senior center. My theory, equally remotely likely because
I
could pick like 20 GGP places and figure out a plausible relationship between that place and her hands in relation to a random set
of
squares.
Dude had a degree in communications. Understanding his puzzle communications shouldn't be so hard, wtf happened?
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
Yes Gman is correct in his assessment that only when a casque is pulled out of the ground, then the theory becomes a solve, until that happens it's good to see ideas and theory's being discussed. I would like to see more connections to the clues, like GG posted, how does this clue lead into the next clue with the verse walking you to each destination, with image. KEEP up the good work!!!
I can see this, but to me his statement means there are just so many ways to interpret a finger pointing to the middle of two blocks and... another finger pointing to the middle of two blocks... that there is no way to determine which of the million ways to interpret this is correct, until we know where it is.
If you lay a map of GGP over the dress, her right hand is pointing exactly at the senior center. My theory, equally remotely likely because I could pick like 20 GGP places and figure out a plausible relationship between that place and her hands in relation to a random set of squares.
Dude had a degree in communications. Understanding his puzzle communications shouldn't be so hard, wtf happened?
gManTexas
My two cents is that the puzzles are constructed so we don't have to solve every single clue to find the casque. 8 out of 10 ain't bad.
gManTexas
My two cents is that the puzzles are constructed so we don't have to solve every single clue to find the casque. 8 out
of
10 ain't bad.
Choice
Another way of looking at the fingers pointing is to bring the two spots pointed together. Again this brings me to Columbus tower.
Simplest way to interpret "Running north, but first across In jewel's direction Is an object Of Twain's attention"
• Running north, but 1st across: Describing a road Running diagonally
• In jewel's direction Is an object Of Twain's attention: Giving you the name of the road
• In jewel's direction: NYC, east
• Is an object Of Twain's attention: Twain’s attention is often considered as Twain’s interest. That makes it too vague and unsolvable. I believe Twain’s attention is two separate items. Twain being uppercase is a name and “‘s” indicates something that belongs to Twain (possessive). Simplest thing I can come up with that belongs to Twain is “Mark”. So Twain’s attention becomes mark twain attention. Attention=standing straight, mark twain= two fathoms (12 feet). To east is statue of Columbus standing 12 feet tall.
• Put it all together and you get “Running diagonally is Columbus”
We need to go up Columbus Ave.
Choice
Another way
of
looking at the fingers pointing is to bring the two spots pointed together. Again this brings me to Columbus tower.
Simplest way to interpret "Running north, but first across In jewel's direction Is an object
Of
Twain's attention"
• Running north, but 1st across: Describing a road Running diagonally
• In jewel's direction Is an object
Of
Twain's attention: Giving you the name
of
the road
• In jewel's direction: NYC, east
• Is an object
Of
Twain's attention: Twain’s attention is often considered as Twain’s interest. That makes it too vague and unsolvable.
I
believe Twain’s attention is two separate items. Twain being uppercase is a name and “‘s” indicates something that belongs to Twain (possessive). Simplest thing
I
can come up with that belongs to Twain is “Mark”. So Twain’s attention becomes mark twain attention. Attention=standing straight, mark twain= two fathoms (12 feet). To east is statue
of
Columbus standing 12 feet tall.
• Put it all together and you get “Running diagonally is Columbus”
We need to go up Columbus Ave.
Goonie68
Taking a look at what we know now, via image and verse and applying it to other puzzles. Let's talk about Chicago for a minute....What we see in the image should represent something in the area the verse brings you too. Take the statute in the Chicago image, it has a set
of
wings attached to it, the wings can be seen as brushes, brushes are connected to paintings (art) the statue is within the Art institute across the street from the casque location. The word brush is in the image and the verse and tying it to a location.
Now let's take the SF image, The word Justices can represent Jail, in the image we have a window with bars, this could be a clue to Jail, which can be connected to Alcatraz.
iron man 1 sex scene
It seems that some
of
the images or objects in the image have a couple
of
degrees
of
meaning, so being straight forward is not necessary true in the sense you have to use a connection to image and verse in some cases.
Brush = art = Art Institute
Justices = Jail = Alcatraz
So fingers pointing to.....? 43 1/2 could be a nod to "for all to see" tour boats left from this dock ( seeing all
of
the bay) , fingers representing a number, which represents a place and the line "for all to see"
Now this is just an opinion and for what it's worth, who knows LOL?????
Goonie68
Taking a look at what we know now, via image and verse and applying it to other puzzles. Let's talk about Chicago for a minute....What we see in the image should represent something in the area the verse brings you too. Take the statute in the Chicago image, it has a set of wings attached to it, the wings can be seen as brushes, brushes are connected to paintings (art) the statue is within the Art institute across the street from the casque location. The word brush is in the image and the verse and tying it to a location.
Now let's take the SF image, The word Justices can represent Jail, in the image we have a window with bars, this could be a clue to Jail, which can be connected to Alcatraz.
iron man 1 sex scene
It seems that some of the images or objects in the image have a couple of degrees of meaning, so being straight forward is not necessary true in the sense you have to use a connection to image and verse in some cases.
Brush = art = Art Institute
Justices = Jail = Alcatraz
So fingers pointing to.....? 43 1/2 could be a nod to "for all to see" tour boats left from this dock ( seeing all of the bay) , fingers representing a number, which represents a place and the line "for all to see"
Now this is just an opinion and for what it's worth, who knows LOL?????
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
Hi Goonie. Here's another possible image match for Ghirardelli, since you believe it is the start of the puzzle. First, I noticed her left eye (our right) is treated differently than her right, with extra detail added:
Then I noticed the similarities in form and color to the ribbon edging found all around the entrances to Ghirardelli square:
Well, that's interesting...
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Another interpretation of the left sleeve blocks:
She's pointing to the seventh set of blocks from bottom. The starting point being Dragon's Gate.
Back of her hand reads 7 Roman numeral from her POV.
Andrew Jackson, 7th president.
https://tinyurl.com/yar9bjzt
BTW, that is a spectacular photo. I'm a fan of the Transamerica Pyramid. Just not as a final point. I think it was a major attraction in SF since it was completed in 1972, but the more important building was the one it replaced, Montgomery Block.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Block
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
Hi Goonie. Here's another possible image match for Ghirardelli, since you believe it is the start of the puzzle. First, I noticed her left eye (our right) is treated differently than her right, with extra detail added:
Then I noticed the similarities in form and color to the ribbon edging found all around the entrances to Ghirardelli square:
Looks very close to the columns.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
BTW, that is a spectacular photo. I'm a fan of the Transamerica Pyramid. Just not as a final point. I think it was a major attraction in SF since it was completed in 1972, but the more important building was the one it replaced, Montgomery Block.
Another place that was replaced is "Justice"
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3345
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
FWIW, I would agree with Goonie that the image and verses work hand-in-hand to tie you to specific locations as you move physically through the puzzle. I think the verses lead you from point-to-point, and things in the image confirm you are moving in the proper direction through physical space while solving the puzzle. This seems to work in the SF puzzle, and Chicago as well.
FWIW, the verses serve two purposes. Intentionally vague, because they walk you through various sights in the city of choice so you can see things and collect clues, then when you are at the dig spot, to show you the location.
Everyone, please stop using Cleveland and Chicago as examples for all of the puzzles. Think deeper.
gManTexas
Durian, I appreciate the work you are doing. The question I would pose to the community at large is: Can you get to the casque location through the image alone? If your answer is no, then why does everyone spend so much time dissecting the images? They are a guide, a rough map, a geolocation.
Now, if someone told you the casque is in xxx park, what would you use? The verse of course. Let's frame this with the simplistic Chicago and Cleveland puzzles. The verses tell you where to go. Not the images.
Can we stop getting hung up on this rock, that feature, in the images please?
prospector
Yes, That is a great photo with the green Coppola building in the foreground. Did you take the photo?
Choice
prospector wrote::
Yes, That is a great photo with the green Coppola building in the foreground. Did you take the photo?
That's actually a stock photo. In fact if you look at the top of that Columbus Tower/Sentinel Building, the roof line forms a V. Combined with I's on each side of the Transamerica pyramid you get the upside down VII.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Choice, great photo....very interesting possibility. Nice find.
Choice
There is a correlation between size of the moons and the distance of way points from the dig sight. I'm listing the last five spots:
5) Peter and Paul Church, outline of the building on the right side and praying hands.
4) Marconi Memorial, sounds from the sky, inventor of radio
3) Coit tower
2) Columbus statue, referred to in the book as "Colon Savanelli, an intrepidly nautical Folleto (misspelled) out of Genoa". Folletto, Italian meaning elf.
1) Final sight
Choice
Sight = site, damn hooked on phonics.
MrBackstop
Nice, another cool possibility for the Circus Tent shelter. Nice find Durian. There are so many clues within that background.
DA25550
My first post. Working on this a long time. I don't have the energy to go there, get permits, etc..., to test my theory. Choice, turn it upside down. There's a time piece under a statue. Like the time capsule in Washington Square in front of the church. Under the Benjamin Franklin statue. An old temperance statue. Matches with the fountain relic. The triangle symbol matches. The other markings too. There's a sign post hanging in the park, matches with a Washington Park signpost.
12 paces from west side of the Ben Franklin statue in Washington Park, SF. Right eh? Towards Columbus where the dragon looks. Ask permission to dig. You don't want to dig the time capsule by accident. It's a city park, you need permission.
More thoughts:
Verse 5:
2202 Lombard
(bunch of stuff that leads you to Coit)
A wingless bird ascended
Born of ancient dreams of flight
Beneath the only standing member
-----
Of a forest
To the south
"Can this be anything other than a tree?" Yes, Ben Franklin could be the only one standing in the park! Break up the sentences. This is a park where everyone is usually lying down on towels. Franklin is the only standing member (of the park). Ben Franklin also did some work with balloons, wingless bird.
MERLIN
Maybe this is the only standing member of a forest....
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/n ... -2011.html
Choice
Lonesome palm.
I think it's near this thing at the Greenwich steps.
https://tinyurl.com/ybzzqdgl
Choice
Unredacted version:
https://tinyurl.com/ydayj6km
Other side of steps:
https://tinyurl.com/y72b7pmh
erexere
Cool pics. Much better than the aerial diagrams that litter the forums...
Mister EZ
That statue appears to be on private property...? Can probably ask the resident(s) how long it's been there.
That basin looks like it's built into the wall....hard to tell if that's public or private....or, how long it's been part of the wall / that area on the side of the public stairs...
(Choice -- Interesting find, imho. Whether it's there or not, the area under the basin is visually reminiscent of the shrubbery planter in Cleveland...)
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Unredacted version:
https://tinyurl.com/ydayj6km
Other side of steps:
https://tinyurl.com/y72b7pmh
I have scouted this area, and talked to the residents there, the statue is only about 8 years old, the fountain has been there a long time, but the stone wall(in front) has only been there for about 10 years. The area was backed filled and the stone wall was added.
Goonie68
There are lamp posst all around Telegraph hill that resemble the shadow under the table, This lamp pole is next to the fountain.
Goonie68
Here is what I think is a match that puts you at the Top of Greenwich steps, possible a confirmation of the area to be in, but again IMO, just could be pareidolia?
The Rock face is disguised in the image to represent these rock formations atop of the stairs.
famous poems about dreams
shesher kobita
The L shaped rock is infront of the path to the stairs, the other rock formation is to the right of the stairs.
what rhymes with arrow
Choice
I joined this post a couple of month ago assuming that people are sharing their findings for the sole purpose of solving the puzzle. Now it’s obvious that some people hold back their findings and this makes the whole point of crowd sharing and solving moot. Side-effects may include waste of time, redundant effort and possible hostility.
I’ve been getting PM’s from people I’ve never heard of that claim to have the same idea and came up with my findings a long time ago, me too, me too. It would’ve been nice to share your findings so someone else doesn’t have to waste countless amount of time researching. So to these people, #methree
Choice
One observation about the dragon on her robe: The serpent seems to be two creatures. One main dragon with the head and tail and the other is the thicker one right in the middle that looks like a giant 6. Also the platform that the pearl sits on has six sides outlined in blue indicating importance. My crude blue line drawing indicates the natural flow of the dragon. Sorry, hard to draw with a mouse!
I think the giant 6 is a blown up overlay of the dragon's head and neck.
gManTexas
Totally random thought, and I figured I'd post it here since this thread is off the rails and batshit loco...
Post a playlist for scouting or digging for the Secret. I mean boots on the ground, headphones on, mission driven. What would you be listening to?
Choice
Hit the road jack,
All my exes live in Texas?
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Hit the road jack,
All my exes live in Texas?
You got some issue? This isn't the first swipe you've taken.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
You got some issue? This isn't the first swipe you've taken.
lol, chill.
BTW none of that was bat crap loco. I may have the final dig spot near Coit. Need to scout the area to confirm. Shared with Goonie in case he can do a walk through.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
lol, chill.
BTW none of that was bat crap loco. I may have the final dig spot near Coit. Need to scout the area to confirm. Shared with Goonie in case he can do a walk through.
lol, shill.
Oops, was that a Freudian slip?
erexere
Ride Like the Wind (Christopher Cross)
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
lol, shill.
Oops, was that a Freudian slip?
Something must've gotten lost in translation. I don't speak stupid.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Something must've gotten lost in translation. I don't speak stupid.
Get off your high horse. By the way, speaking of high horses, I'm currently in Cleveland looking at all the points that were missed and overlooked. When are you gonna put some boots on the ground in some
Choice
spots?
BTW, next time you call me stupid, I will bitch slap you from wherever I happen to be.
Choice
Do yourself a favor and get a new pair of glasses. You obviously can't see the difference between chill and shill.
And get a life, I'm not obsessed as you are. It's just a hobby in my spare time and have done more in a few weeks than you'll ever do in a decade, stupid!
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
Do yourself a favor and get a new pair of glasses. You obviously can't see the difference between chill and shill.
And get a life, I'm not obsessed as you are. It's just a hobby in my spare time and have done more in a few weeks than you'll ever do in a decade, stupid!
Godspeed Choice. May you lift casques to the moon in victory.
Choice
bless your heart too.
Choice
Durian wrote::
Since everybody's in such a fine mood this evening, here is the third probably image match to Aquatic Park's East speaker tower (the giant pole) I've found. Note the outline of the eyebrows match the curve of the underside of the speaker exactly:
I thought you want to shave her eyebrows with a razor
Choice
At last! Someone that understands a joke! There's hope for this planet yet.
atdreamer2112
gManTexas wrote::
Totally random thought, and I figured I'd post it here since this thread is off the rails and batshit loco...
Post a playlist for scouting or digging for the Secret. I mean boots on the ground, headphones on, mission driven. What would you be listening to?
Hey gMan, it's this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdt58T366xw
MERLIN
atdreamer2112 wrote::
Hey gMan, it's this one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdt58T366xw
OH HELL NO!!......Lemme fix that for ya!...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA0_vr_Ktl8
Goonie68
Crazy Train(OZZY) would be mine, cuz walking down the street with a probe, shove and a drill people look at you like YOU CRAZY!.......Well I AM!
Choice
Coolest flyby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fo9xe5I-Y
Choice
I am bored too so...!
[Edited multiple times]
The leg indicates the start and finish of the puzzle. The Gate is the start and the round handle on the left and the dark leaf on the right side together is the ending.
Here's another way of looking at the table leg:
atdreamer2112
Goonie68 wrote::
Crazy Train(OZZY) would be mine, cuz walking down the street with a probe, shove and a drill people look at you like YOU CRAZY!.......Well I AM!
Oh, that's a good one! Since Gman asked for a "Headphones-On Playlist," here's what we've got so far:
1.) Counting Crows-Mrs. Potter's Lullaby (in my defense, I was still Friday-night drinking at 4am Saturday morning; I'm too old for that shit! However, I love the song, so it makes it to the Unofficial Official Playlist "because I said so")
https://youtu.be/Xdt58T366xw
2.) Roxette-The Look (but this metal cover version by Leo Moracchioli which is weird to watch but also kinda cool to listen to anyway, shared by Merlin)
https://youtu.be/tA0_vr_Ktl8
3.) Ozzy Osbourne-Crazy Train (Goonie68, you didn’t share a video link, so I picked one for you including Randy Rhoads because… respect)
https://youtu.be/H-PQeWJ2ZC8
4.) Coolest FlyBy-Not Even a Song (a video that Choice shared, I admit I was afraid to watch because I thought it might be schmuckery, turned out to be pretty amazing. I would edit it down to at least half-time for the “Headphones-On Unofficial Official Playlist,” and use it as a brief intro into the next song)
https://youtu.be/J4fo9xe5I-Y
5.) Humble Pie-30 Days in the Hole (should be the Headphones-On Unofficial Official Theme Song for the Secret, in my unbiased, unprofessional, not-so-humble-opinion)
https://youtu.be/sdXjm8pZMws
burnstyle
Keep going and I'll start a spotify playlist.
gManTexas
burnstyle wrote::
Keep going and I'll start a spotify playlist.
LOL, normally I like a playlist of songs that go together, but since this is all over the map, I would throw this on there:
Somebody's always watching me - Rockwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY
gManTexas
burnstyle wrote::
Keep going and
I
'll start a spotify playlist.
LOL, normally
I
like a playlist
of
songs that go together, but since this is all over the map,
I
would throw this on there:
Somebody's always watching me - Rockwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY
Choice
That's a horrible song Tex. The only reason that song was a success was because MJ had a one liner in there. If you're looking for a stalker song here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs
Choice
atdreamer2112 wrote::
Coolest FlyBy-Not Even a Song
Sometimes a flyby is just a flyby
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
I
am bored too so...!
The leg indicates the start and finish
of
the puzzle. The Gate is the start and the round handle on the left and the dark leaf on the right side together is the ending.
If only the lower levels
of
the roof were there or the squiggle
of
the dragon on top. or even the fish actually looked like the fish...
it's just there is not enough there to say "this looks like the gate" because we have seen lots
of
examples
of
things the gate has been suggested for.
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
I am bored too so...!
The leg indicates the start and finish of the puzzle. The Gate is the start and the round handle on the left and the dark leaf on the right side together is the ending.
If only the lower levels of the roof were there or the squiggle of the dragon on top. or even the fish actually looked like the fish...
it's just there is not enough there to say "this looks like the gate" because we have seen lots of examples of things the gate has been suggested for.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
OH HELL NO!!......Lemme fix that for ya!...
Joe Sat is the man when it comes to guitar... Here he is with hair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI57QHL6ge0
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
If only the lower levels
of
the roof were there or the squiggle
of
the dragon on top. or even the fish actually looked like the fish...
it's just there is not enough there to say "this looks like the gate" because we have seen lots
of
examples
of
things the gate has been suggested for.
Looking closely at the two "fish"
I
can clearly see eyes on both. Also blue outline around them. Also got a pole in their mouth.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
If only the lower levels of the roof were there or the squiggle of the dragon on top. or even the fish actually looked like the fish...
it's just there is not enough there to say "this looks like the gate" because we have seen lots of examples of things the gate has been suggested for.
Looking closely at the two "fish" I can clearly see eyes on both. Also blue outline around them. Also got a pole in their mouth.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
That's a horrible song Tex. The only reason that song was a success was because MJ had a one liner in there. If you're looking for a stalker song here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs
I
'm going to be the bigger person here. Did
I
malign you in some way, or do you just have a general disdain for people who happen to live in Texas? If
I
somehow offended you in your short time here, please let me know and
I
will apologize and we can move on. Otherwise, you have no need to respond to anything
I
post.
gManTexas
Choice wrote::
That's a horrible song Tex. The only reason that song was a success was because MJ had a one liner in there. If you're looking for a stalker song here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs
I'm going to be the bigger person here. Did I malign you in some way, or do you just have a general disdain for people who happen to live in Texas? If I somehow offended you in your short time here, please let me know and I will apologize and we can move on. Otherwise, you have no need to respond to anything I post.
Choice
I'm just responding to your post and choice of song, nothing personal. You're such a sensitive snowflake
Choice
I
'm just responding to your post and choice
of
song, nothing personal. You're such a sensitive snowflake
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
If I somehow offended you in your short time here, please let me know and I will apologize and we can move on ...
Perhaps you are oblivious to your own tone of posts. I don't want to go too far back but only recently you diminished people's posts as "batshit loco" and made terroristic threat of violence by posting "I'll bitch slap you from wherever"
Question is what kind of "Gman" are you? Gman as gangster or Gman as government worker? Are you a postal worker? Cause that may explain your going postal often.
Choice
gManTexas wrote::
If
I
somehow offended you in your short time here, please let me know and
I
will apologize and we can move on ...
Perhaps you are oblivious to your own tone
of
posts.
I
don't want to go too far back but only recently you diminished people's posts as "batshit loco" and made terroristic threat
of
violence by posting "
I
'll bitch slap you from wherever"
Question is what kind
of
"Gman" are you? Gman as gangster or Gman as government worker? Are you a postal worker? Cause that may explain your going postal often.
Goonie68
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
This thing maybe? Frame of the painting is in the shape of the Coit observatory windows as if she's standing in front of the window and describing what she's seeing.
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
This thing maybe? Frame
of
the painting is in the shape
of
the Coit observatory windows as if she's standing in front
of
the window and describing what she's seeing.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
This thing maybe? Frame of the painting is in the shape of the Coit observatory windows as if she's standing in front of the window and describing what she's seeing.
looking down from the top of the tower in 1982, You will see something different, the “round” area was actually diamond shaped with a upper and lower area separated by 3 little steps.
You’ll need to use images before 85 as reference
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
This thing maybe? Frame
of
the painting is in the shape
of
the Coit observatory windows as if she's standing in front
of
the window and describing what she's seeing.
looking down from the top
of
the tower in 1982, You will see something different, the “round” area was actually diamond shaped with a upper and lower area separated by 3 little steps.
You’ll need to use images before 85 as reference
Choice
I was not sure since a lot of renovation has been done in that area including the statue base. so I wrote maybe. Do you have an image you could post?
Choice
I
was not sure since a lot
of
renovation has been done in that area including the statue base. so
I
wrote maybe. Do you have an image you could post?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
After spending the past month shutting my mind off to Golden Gate Park theories to sincerely consider others' hard-researched thoughts regarding other locations in relation to what we know about Cleveland and Chicago, I'm back to believing that this was intended to be a strawberry for Strawberry Hill. "Strawberry Hill" is listed very clearly on nearly every period map and sits in the center of the park -- it's a focal point.
Just looking at what we know about the Chicago and Cleveland images, details like this seem to be addressed in the same simple, yet slightly shrouded way: in Chicago: The fairy from the Spirit of the Lakes fountain, the bowman, the water tower, the fence. Cleveland: The pillars (front and back), the fountain, bas relief lion / water bowl, etc... all of these were recognizable without 1000x zooms and wondering if that one thing you think is an eye for months upon months only to realize it's a pixel misprint. I''m more convinced than ever that the clues are right there, staring us in the face.
I'll add one more piece to my theory about the sleeves with 18 and 20 blocks each representing 18th and 20th Avenues. What street runs BETWEEN 18th and 20th through the park? CROSSOVER Drive! The "lane" between those avenues include Crossover drive, the boathouse area on the Western edge of Stow lake which actually flares out like the strawberry stem, the western portion of Strawberry Hill itself... and the Prayerbook Cross. The whole "but first across" line I'd put in the same category as "rumble" in V5 as a primary verse hint.
Below are a few different images of that "zone." I'm still refining a couple theories as to the spot, but to me, so much leads to this area (H/T to Goonie for the period tourist map). I urge everyone to put away Google maps for a bit. Find a real 1982 map, look at what Preiss and JJP actually looked at. Similarly, just for a day, untether yourselves from Google as a whole... read the actual book -- look at paper maps... recite the verse out loud as they appeared. Tech helps, but it also hurts.... look at this puzzle as it was intended to be studied. AND YES, I KNOW, nobody solved it then (save Chicago) so we should look at things in new ways... but I'll be blunt... the book sold so terribly it never even warranted to a second printing . So of the few souls that bought it back then... even fewer dug. That's why these casques were not found back then -- not because people weren't using google. There are greater numbers now and more resources... but hyper zooming on google maps and blowing up TINY illustrations from a trade paperback quality printing was not the way the puzzle was meant to be solved. If you can't see it with the naked eye or without photoshop filters... it's not significant to the puzzle. Also, do you really think Preiss was getting aerial photos in 1982 -- they were not easy to find -- certainly harder for any key searcher than Preiss himself -- I just really doubt he went to those crazy lengths -- if it was in 2000 maybe... but not 1982.
What if the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles were the hard ones? Remember BP himself refused to give any hints in the Japanese edition for the Boston image because he thought it would be too easy that way. I urge my fellow San Francisco searchers to take a day or so and think simple! Love to hear your thoughts.
Great post and I agree wholeheartedly. One other thing that is a game changer is putting boots on the ground in these locations. I realize that is not possible for everyone, but it is eye opening. The scale, the practicality of navigating, the little "a-ha" things that even today cannot be found online. Also, talking to the locals or using local resources. There is a wealth of information that has not been digitized yet, and may never be.
Another point to being on site is seeing what flows and what doesn't. Some clues may in fact be gone, however most are still present and the human eye can make connections and fill in the blanks. At least it gives you some perspective on things, in some cases where the casques are not buried.
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
After spending the past month shutting my mind off to Golden Gate Park theories to sincerely consider others' hard-researched thoughts regarding other locations in relation to what we know about Cleveland and Chicago,
I
'm back to believing that this was intended to be a strawberry for Strawberry Hill. "Strawberry Hill" is listed very clearly on nearly every period map and sits in the center
of
the park -- it's a focal point.
Just looking at what we know about the Chicago and Cleveland images, details like this seem to be addressed in the same simple, yet slightly shrouded way: in Chicago: The fairy from the Spirit
of
the Lakes fountain, the bowman, the water tower, the fence. Cleveland: The pillars (front and back), the fountain, bas relief lion / water bowl, etc... all
of
these were recognizable without 1000x zooms and wondering if that one thing you think is an eye for months upon months only to realize it's a pixel misprint.
I
''m more convinced than ever that the clues are right there, staring us in the face.
I
'll add one more piece to my theory about the sleeves with 18 and 20 blocks each representing 18th and 20th Avenues. What street runs BETWEEN 18th and 20th through the park? CROSSOVER Drive! The "lane" between those avenues include Crossover drive, the boathouse area on the Western edge
of
Stow lake which actually flares out like the strawberry stem, the western portion
of
Strawberry Hill itself... and the Prayerbook Cross. The whole "but first across" line
I
'd put in the same category as "rumble" in V5 as a primary verse hint.
Below are a few different images
of
that "zone."
I
'm still refining a couple theories as to the spot, but to me, so much leads to this area (H/T to Goonie for the period tourist map).
I
urge everyone to put away Google maps for a bit. Find a real 1982 map, look at what Preiss and JJP actually looked at. Similarly, just for a day, untether yourselves from Google as a whole... read the actual book -- look at paper maps... recite the verse out loud as they appeared. Tech helps, but it also hurts.... look at this puzzle as it was intended to be studied. AND YES,
I
KNOW, nobody solved it then (save Chicago) so we should look at things in new ways... but
I
'll be blunt... the book sold so terribly it never even warranted to a second printing . So
of
the few souls that bought it back then... even fewer dug. That's why these casques were not found back then -- not because people weren't using google. There are greater numbers now and more resources... but hyper zooming on google maps and blowing up TINY illustrations from a trade paperback quality printing was not the way the puzzle was meant to be solved. If you can't see it with the naked eye or without photoshop filters... it's not significant to the puzzle. Also, do you really think Preiss was getting aerial photos in 1982 -- they were not easy to find -- certainly harder for any key searcher than Preiss himself --
I
just really doubt he went to those crazy lengths -- if it was in 2000 maybe... but not 1982.
What if the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles were the hard ones? Remember BP himself refused to give any hints in the Japanese edition for the Boston image because he thought it would be too easy that way.
I
urge my fellow San Francisco searchers to take a day or so and think simple! Love to hear your thoughts.
Great post and
I
agree wholeheartedly. One other thing that is a game changer is putting boots on the ground in these locations.
I
realize that is not possible for everyone, but it is eye opening. The scale, the practicality
of
navigating, the little "a-ha" things that even today cannot be found online. Also, talking to the locals or using local resources. There is a wealth
of
information that has not been digitized yet, and may never be.
Another point to being on site is seeing what flows and what doesn't. Some clues may in fact be gone, however most are still present and the human eye can make connections and fill in the blanks. At least it gives you some perspective on things, in some cases where the casques are not buried.
MERLIN
Goonie68 wrote::
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
Maybe what's on top of these three high posts??..
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ ... to-3136817
MERLIN
Goonie68 wrote::
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
Maybe what's on top
of
these three high posts??..
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ ... to-3136817
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
I was not sure since a lot of renovation has been done in that area including the statue base. so I wrote maybe. Do you have an image you could post?
I don’t, all I have was a “purposed” elevated architectural drawings for the 85’ renovation with written descriptions. No top views. I found some b&w ariel views of the area taken in 1984. And I’m sure you know the trees of those days were much bigger and it basically covers the entire back porch...can’t even see the trails.
MERLIN
Does the lions head and snake look kind of like a backwards G??....
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/w ... _36761.jpg
Goonie68
My point was "Strawberries" are RED, not blue.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
That brings back memories, used to go past it every day on my way to school!
That said, in all the translations from the Japanese edition I've read, BP singled out the "high posts are three" as wooden posts. But the shape is cool... it's widely known as a pinecone / artichoke finial (had a bunch at my old house).
Another aside: it's awesome how all the molding is painted... too many old ornate public works buildings were slathered with the same monotoned paint. This is how it should be done!
Oh the pine cone of Belvedere... Here's a long winded video about masons and Egypt and everything "batshit loco"!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L777RhL_Fz4&t=3611s
Choice
It may look like a filbert
Choice
No, just gummies, miss that guy!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
It may look like a filbert
did Josh sell you some "brownies"???
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
No, just gummies
you should share!
Goonie68
Goldengate wrote::
Gotcha. But to that same point, in Chicago the water tower did not have a windmill and the Spirit of the Great Lakes figure from the fountain did not have wings. In Cleveland the fountain was not hand sized chalice, etc. I think this is the same kind of thing... a clear reference (a shape resembling a strawberry where there's a land mass called Strawberry Hill), but slightly masked by being blue. It seems to me that JJP created these images in a way that they would be recognizable with the bare eye, meant to be correlated with a location, but just obscured or masked enough to blend into the theme.
So to directly address your point, I think that it's the shape of a strawberry more than anything else I can easily identify with a quick glance. The shape is in the middle of a large rectangle... just as Strawberry Hill is mentioned in every map and is the high point of Golden Gate Park. Just speaking for myself and my own theory, when added to the 18th & 20th avenue identifiers that contain between them crossover drive, the "stem" of the strawberry and several other interesting landmarks, it seems that the general area is being called out in several interesting ways.
To Gman's point, I haven't been there since the summer so am looking forward to walking that part of the park, including the wooded areas between Traverse Drive and the West side of Strawberry Hill.
Also, while just out of that 18th & 20th zone it's interesting to me that the Chinese / Taiwanese pavilion on the island is COVERED in triratna symbols that look an awful lot like the three balls on her dress. Considering the theme of the puzzle that still seems one of the biggest hints to me -- that's the only of the symbols on her dress that I can directly physically link to something the park.
You make good points here GG, I was looking at this as more of a word play, I can certainly identify the shape resembling a strawberry, but changing the color turns it into something simple like berry (for me) Maybe berry, blue = blueberry,
prospector
I am hoping this will open and it will show the book I saw for sale in the Eastern Sierras.
https://boredfeet.com/singles2/twaincal.php
bbi
Goldengate wrote::
And last, the man who translated the Japanese translation has communicated with group members here... I've read the note. His English is pretty damn good -- and my friend in Japan (also a translator) told me he's a legend in the translating and publishing world and he was the dean of a school dedicated to translation... so I'll take his word for it that Preiss said "wood posts."
Hi GG,
In regards to the high posts three line. If we are to take them as being wooden posts, do you have any thoughts on what this could be referring to at the GGP. I know it had always been widely seen as being Sutro Tower. But thats obviously out now given its not made of wood. Just curious if you have any ideas/thoughts on that.
Spiritr
all of the sudden out of nowhere prospector pops a Verse related link and completely destroyed the ambriance in the middle of GG and Durian's debate,
follows by another unrelated Verse questions by bbi...
and this is a Image thread
Goonie68
bbi wrote::
Hi GG,
In regards to the high posts three line. If we are to take them as being wooden posts, do you have any thoughts on what this could be referring to at the GGP. I know it had always been widely seen as being Sutro Tower. But thats obviously out now given its not made of wood. Just curious if you have any ideas/thoughts on that.
Good question bbi!
Spiritr
Good question?
it's off-topic and awfully wrong
gManTexas
Spiritr wrote::
all of the sudden out of nowhere prospector pops a Verse related link and completely destroyed the ambriance in the middle of GG and Durian's debate,
follows by another unrelated Verse questions by bbi...
and this is a Image thread
Rules, schmules.
Rviewer1
Goldengate wrote::
After spending the past month shutting my mind off to Golden Gate Park theories to sincerely consider others' hard-researched thoughts regarding other locations in relation to what we know about Cleveland and Chicago, I'm back to believing that this was intended to be a strawberry for Strawberry Hill. "Strawberry Hill" is listed very clearly on nearly every period map and sits in the center of the park -- it's a focal point.
Just looking at what we know about the Chicago and Cleveland images, details like this seem to be addressed in the same simple, yet slightly shrouded way: in Chicago: The fairy from the Spirit of the Lakes fountain, the bowman, the water tower, the fence. Cleveland: The pillars (front and back), the fountain, bas relief lion / water bowl, etc... all of these were recognizable without 1000x zooms and wondering if that one thing you think is an eye for months upon months only to realize it's a pixel misprint. I''m more convinced than ever that the clues are right there, staring us in the face.
I'll add one more piece to my theory about the sleeves with 18 and 20 blocks each representing 18th and 20th Avenues. What street runs BETWEEN 18th and 20th through the park? CROSSOVER Drive! The "lane" between those avenues include Crossover drive, the boathouse area on the Western edge of Stow lake which actually flares out like the strawberry stem, the western portion of Strawberry Hill itself... and the Prayerbook Cross. The whole "but first across" line I'd put in the same category as "rumble" in V5 as a primary verse hint.
Below are a few different images of that "zone." I'm still refining a couple theories as to the spot, but to me, so much leads to this area (H/T to Goonie for the period tourist map). I urge everyone to put away Google maps for a bit. Find a real 1982 map, look at what Preiss and JJP actually looked at. Similarly, just for a day, untether yourselves from Google as a whole... read the actual book -- look at paper maps... recite the verse out loud as they appeared. Tech helps, but it also hurts.... look at this puzzle as it was intended to be studied.
AND YES, I KNOW, nobody solved it then (save Chicago) so we should look at things in new ways... but I'll be blunt... the book sold so terribly it never even warranted getting a second printing. So of the few souls that bought it back then in the early 80s... even fewer dug. That's why these casques were not found back then -- not because people weren't using Google. There are greater numbers now and more resources... but hyper zooming on google maps and blowing up TINY illustrations from a trade paperback quality printing was not the way the puzzle was meant to be solved. If you can't see it with the naked eye or without photoshop filters... it's not significant to the puzzle. Also, do you really think Preiss was getting aerial photos in 1982 -- they were not easy to find -- certainly harder for any key searcher than Preiss himself -- I just really doubt he went to those crazy lengths -- if it was in 2000 maybe... but not 1982.
What if the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles were the hard ones? Remember BP himself refused to give any hints in the Japanese edition for the Boston image because he thought it would be too easy that way. I urge my fellow San Francisco searchers to take a day or so and think simple! Love to hear your thoughts.
Hey Goldengate,
That is a cool map. Could you send a link or post the whole map of GGP with that version? That would be greatly appreciated.
Rviewer1
Goldengate wrote::
After spending the past month shutting my mind off to Golden Gate Park theories to sincerely consider others' hard-researched thoughts regarding other locations in relation to what we know about Cleveland and Chicago, I'm back to believing that this was intended to be a strawberry for Strawberry Hill. "Strawberry Hill" is listed very clearly on nearly every period map and sits in the center of the park -- it's a focal point.
Just looking at what we know about the Chicago and Cleveland images, details like this seem to be addressed in the same simple, yet slightly shrouded way: in Chicago: The fairy from the Spirit of the Lakes
fountain
, the bowman, the water tower, the fence. Cleveland: The pillars (front and back), the
fountain
, bas relief lion / water bowl, etc... all of these were recognizable without 1000x zooms and wondering if that one thing you think is an eye for months upon months only to realize it's a pixel misprint. I''m more convinced than ever that the clues are right there, staring us in the face.
I'll add one more piece to my theory about the sleeves with 18 and 20 blocks each representing 18th and 20th Avenues. What street runs BETWEEN 18th and 20th through the park? CROSSOVER Drive! The "lane" between those avenues include Crossover drive, the boathouse area on the Western edge of Stow lake which actually flares out like the strawberry stem, the western portion of Strawberry Hill itself... and the Prayerbook Cross. The whole "but first across" line I'd put in the same category as "rumble" in V5 as a primary verse hint.
Below are a few different images of that "zone." I'm still refining a couple theories as to the spot, but to me, so much leads to this area (H/T to Goonie for the period tourist map). I urge everyone to put away Google maps for a bit. Find a real 1982 map, look at what Preiss and JJP actually looked at. Similarly, just for a day, untether yourselves from Google as a whole... read the actual book -- look at paper maps... recite the verse out loud as they appeared. Tech helps, but it also hurts.... look at this puzzle as it was intended to be studied.
AND YES, I KNOW, nobody solved it then (save Chicago) so we should look at things in new ways... but I'll be blunt... the book sold so terribly it never even warranted getting a second printing. So of the few souls that bought it back then in the early 80s... even fewer dug. That's why these casques were not found back then -- not because people weren't using Google. There are greater numbers now and more resources... but hyper zooming on google maps and blowing up TINY illustrations from a trade paperback quality printing was not the way the puzzle was meant to be solved. If you can't see it with the naked eye or without photoshop filters... it's not significant to the puzzle. Also, do you really think Preiss was getting aerial photos in 1982 -- they were not easy to find -- certainly harder for any key searcher than Preiss himself -- I just really doubt he went to those crazy lengths -- if it was in 2000 maybe... but not 1982.
What if the Cleveland and Chicago puzzles were the hard ones? Remember BP himself refused to give any hints in the Japanese edition for the Boston image because he thought it would be too easy that way. I urge my fellow San Francisco searchers to take a day or so and think simple! Love to hear your thoughts.
Hey Goldengate,
That is a cool map. Could you send a link or post the whole map of GGP with that version? That would be greatly appreciated.
Spiritr
Choice, per your request yesterday, this is the article I have
the original 1984 cut-outs of the Chronicle
another purposed plan used for the renovation. date unknown.
the most updated and official plan from SF Rec&Park Dept. *the original file was huge, pm me if you want it.
actual view from the top, on 7/2018. around...3:30 pm.
from the back observatory
from the east observatory, *the shadow
MERLIN
Durian wrote::
FWIW, these two shapes are very similar:
#Zoominginandlookingatshadowsagain
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/zh. ... 1216112515
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
Curious to know what people think this is? Majority say strawberry? But.........
It's a graphic representation of the two Speaker Towers facing each other in Aquatic Park.
Rviewer1
Goldengate wrote::
Hey Rviewer1,
I'm guessing you're talking about the cool illustrated map? When I get back to my home laptop I'll dig around and see. Full credit where credit is due, that's actually one Goonie found and contributed to one of the SF FB groups. I think he said his was 84. What's interesting is that the map has been updated and is still available, but with new changes noted and illustrated in the same style -- such as the Steinhart, De Young and California Science Center have been redrawn to look like they do now. I think you can the updated map by googling around. I'll add the full 80s example later today if I can find it!
Thank you Goldengate and a shout out to Goonie for getting this map. I have been hitting google lately looking for maps like this one. I am going to start calling around to places like libraries for some.
Rviewer1
I can’t remember the last time I was in one
Goonie68
Hey Rviewer1,
I'm guessing you're talking about the cool illustrated map? When I get back to my home laptop I'll dig around and see. Full credit where credit is due, that's actually one Goonie found and contributed to one of the SF FB groups. I think he said his was 84. What's interesting is that the map has been updated and is still available, but with new changes noted and illustrated in the same style -- such as the Steinhart, De Young and California Science Center have been redrawn to look like they do now. I think you can the updated map by googling around. I'll add the full 80s example later today if I can find it![/quote]
Thank you Goldengate and a shout out to Goonie for getting this map. I have been hitting google lately looking for maps like this one. I am going to start calling around to places like libraries for some. I can’t remember the last time I was in one.[/quote][/quote]
Rviewer1, what area are you looking for? GGP or other?
Rviewer1
Goonie68 wrote::
Rviewer1, what area are you looking for? GGP or other?
I'm not sure what you have but the areas I'm interested in are GGP and LOH. I still remain open to other areas of the city as being possible solutions. Do you have any ideas on where I could buy some old vintage maps that BP may have used of SF and the parks. Thanks Goonie!
prospector
I must agree, the fold out map it so cool. I think it was Goldengate who posted it. I wrote a post but I guess I deleted it about going to the historical society. I am also wondering if the Parks have archives? I think I saw the SF downtown library has lots of photos. I have copied some and have them save in my "Secret Folder" and of course the SF Chronicle archives. Newspapers call there archives the morgue -- where flies and old photos are stored.
Choice
Thanks Spiritr, got the PDF recently, just didn't get the chance to look at it. Will keep in touch.
@Goldengate, to make the image fit better to your solution, mirror the image so the G and h are correct. Then the hand with VII fingers would be pointing to 20th ave.
7th pres. Jackson on $20 bill.
Spiritr
i think this thread is overloaded with way too much mixed opinions and at 240 pages, it's impossible to tell what is right and wrong anymore...
I'm gonna make a thread of my own for san francisco and make some space for this thread
Goonie68
Rviewer1 wrote::
I'm not sure what you have but the areas I'm interested in are GGP and LOH. I still remain open to other areas of the city as being possible solutions. Do you have any ideas on where I could buy some old vintage maps that BP may have used of SF and the parks. Thanks Goonie!
The San Francisco Library is your best bet for maps, slides and information about the parks and the city. This was at the library, a replica of Francis Scott Key monument made out of wood! Very cool!
limited tort
Goonie68
This might peak your interest Rviewer1
he wishes for the cloths of heaven poem analysis
MERLIN
I found some large wooden poles -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Georg ... 22.4402579
Choice
Very nice Merlin!
But all this talk about red strawberries and blueberries makes me hungry for dessert.
I still think blue and purple circles represent hydrangea flowers where intentionally planted around Lombard street as mudslide prevention.
This is very close to the painting's dragon head. Head spike crown and all:
And I don't know if this was there in the early 80's or not but looks very close as well:
I wish I could find a definitive drawing of the layout in late 70's.
Choice
@Merlin, your backward G lion/serpent statue is modern. Here's Manuel Palos in his studio sculpting serpent's head for the fountain at the Golden Gate Music Concourse in 2011.
MERLIN
Damn!.....Back to the drawing board. Thanks Choice
MERLIN
Could this be the blue strawberry??
https://images.pond5.com/crab-statue-pi ... still.jpeg
Choice
@Merlin, you should really research a bit before spitting things out. Crab Topiary sculpture at Pier 39 by Jeff Brees, installed in 2003.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Crab Topiary sculpture at Pier 39, Fisherman's Wharf, San Francisco by Jeff Brees, installed in 2003
I need a beer......and a time machine.
Choice
So what's the deal with Lotta's Fountain? It keeps changing size.
Here are pictures from 1880, 1956, 1980 and now:
Choice
Durian wrote::
It's a TARDIS?
Maybe it's Merlin's time machine.
Choice
It was moved once but it's the same fountain. I think they reduced the size to bring it back to the original size. But during BP's visit it was giant.
Kang
Choice wrote::
@Merlin, your backward G lion/serpent statue is modern. Here's Manuel Palos in his studio sculpting serpent's head for the fountain at the Golden Gate Music Concourse in 2011.
All is not lost Merlin. The Rideout Fountain by M Earl Cummings with the lion and serpent was installed in 1924. The picture Choice posted does indeed show Manuel Palos - however he was restoring/repairing/replacing the sculpture around 2010. Not sure when the damage mentioned in this article occurred....
https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/R ... to-2307236
Choice
My bad, relied on SF library website
Whenever I see the backward G in the painting I see a black knight inside (chess piece) and a man's head in h.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Maybe it's Merlin's time machine.
This is how MERLIN does time travel -
hxxp://riopretobeerclub.com.br/uploads/ ... 1914aa.jpg
Rviewer1
Thank you Goonie! I’m on the run right now but can’t wait to start looking at everything.
Rviewer1
I like Huntington falls on Strawberry Hill as a potential Casque location. Looking up at the first wooden bridge from the bottom I can see three wooden vertical posts that seem high from down below. Crossing those bridges could be interpreted to be a giant step. The paddle boats could be an object of Twain’s attention although I feel better if we had a bigger connection to Twain. Also standing below the falls with the rocks, it sure looks like the water and rocks in the image. From the book there is the passage that says “ The Nymphs of Hellas cherish sweet Aquamarine, spring-water clear. From far Cathay”. I don’t have a giant pole though.
Can anyone make a decent argument for a case in favor Huntington Falls and Strawberry Hill? Also I have not been up to Strawberry Hill yet so I don’t know what the view looks like and what site confirmers that you can see from up there.
Choice
Polo can be interpreted as pole
prospector
Goldengate wrote::
Hey Rviewer1,
Just a reminder -- while Huntington Falls shares some strikingly similar aspects to Image 1, know that 100% the falls were still non-operational an in fact in a collapsed state in 1981. The falls collapsed in the early 60s and stayed that way until 1984 I believe they went through extensive renovations, engineering and retrofitting, including the manufactured rock work that you see today. The bridges were also washed out during that collapse until they were rebuilt. The falls were always a "fake feature" and not natural -- as are most of the rocks most of which are actually concrete and was remade for the 84. I forgot if I posted the documentation in this thread -- but it can easily be found on the internet. In my next post, I'm putting up a great 1981 article from the San Francisco Examiner -- I think it should be read carefully by everyone.
Hello Goldengate and Rivewer1,
I really appreciate all of the posts and answers. I liked the Huntington Falls idea but was happy to see Goldengate clear up anything about that time frame in Golden Gate park. I have been working on a solve that would take me into the park at the Senior Center and onto JFK drive. I spent a long time looking at the falls and the rock around that area. I didn't know it collapsed before 1981 and stayed that way until 1984. That is the sort of ideas I love about this forum. I have read through this thread and the verse thread a few times and I still miss a lot. I have started a list of the Dig sites and will post it soon. I'm at work right now and should get off this right now. YIKES I'm obsessed! And here is to Goldengate and all the others who have helped newbies like me out.
. Also, I can't wait to read the article from the Examiner.
Rviewer1
Thanks Goldengate. That is the toughest part of this hunt. You always have to go back and check to see how things were in 1981 and then, has anything changed since 1981. There is that 1907 Bronz Sundial done by M. Earl Cummings that now sits in front of the De Young Museum. Does anyone know where that was located in 1981?
erexere
Goldengate, I've also found old magazines to be a resource. I was interested in the Legion of Honor art exhibits back around 1980, so i found an article in Sunset Magazine. Unfortunately I didn't find anything I could use.
Choice
Choice wrote::
The leg indicates the start and finish of the puzzle. The Gate is the start and the round handle on the left and the dark leaf on the right side together is the ending.
Here's another way of looking at the table leg:
To expand on my dragon's gate hypothesis, looking at the G, there may be a dragon's head inside making it dragon's G.
And h on the other side spells hill. I think there's a head or something inside the "h" too.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
To me, the most compelling thing is the shape of the parking lot and the orientation of the circular pond...
It seems like everyone ignores the fact that the platform that the pearl sits on is not circular but hexagonal.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
It seems like everyone ignores the fact that the platform that the pearl sits on is not circular but hexagonal.
It appears that what's under the pearl is a shadow , and giving the illusion that the pearl is high up.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
It seems like everyone ignores the fact that the platform that the pearl sits on is not circular but hexagonal.
Can you further explain this,
"platform" you mean below the neck area? or the collar of the dress?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
"platform" you mean below the neck area? or the collar of the dress?
I mean the blue hexagon:
Spiritr
that's a....hexagon?
btw, there's a hexagon shaped flower bed in the area near my interest spot, I even ask the Park Gardener for the plan, it's only 2' in depth
furthermore... they had a voluntary program with the elementary school nearby, kids will re-pot and change the soils there annually...
Choice
Isn't it? Perhaps try looking at an original book and let us know.
Spiritr
looking at the book(s), it's just a blue round glowing of the Pearl. Much like what you crop out,
I've scale it down using my iphone XS to almost exact size as the US book,
in the smaller books, due to difference in printing quality, especially the second version, these japanese papers were much better in quality compares to the US version.
and I don't know how to explain to you, by gazing the image under the light, the details of the blue area becomes very HD? I can't came up with a better word to describe it,
as if the image become negative. I tried to capture it with my phone but it's really hard, one hand I'm holding the book with my other hand holding a phone...and here's the photo, if holding it close, I can actually see every single one of those blue blocks on the dragon as well as the pebbles at the back. It's really sharp and clear.
other image
but still, it's round and doesn't look hexagonal at all...IMO
Choice
I know it's verboten here but I used my graphics program to isolate blue and I get this:
The pearl is perfectly round. Also the moons. I'm sure he could've done a better job of drawing a circle if in fact that's what he wanted to draw.
Flower planters are off limit too.
I think he wanted to obscure the fact that it's a hexagon.
Choice
Why do I see Bing [bot] and Google [bot] users in this forum? Are they ironic handles or actual bots? If real bots, why are they permitted in this forum?
Spiritr
you mean JJP purposely blurred it out?
For the flower planner part, if you saw what I posted in another thread, on the construction plan of the Greek Cultural Garden, where the cask was buried was clearly a Flower Plant.
Google and Bing records and collects data for cached from phpBB or vBulletin and many other forums all the time. Mostly just front page. Nothing unusual about it.
You didn't read the agreements when you sign up?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
You didn't read the agreements when you sign up?
you mean JJP purposely blurred it out?
Heck no I didn't!
Maybe, just so it's not so obvious JJP obscured it, made it hazy to hide it in plain sight.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
it's just a blue round glowing of the Pearl.
That's a good point. If it's meant to be a glowing halo around the pearl then It would be uneven and not perfectly round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2YJduDyFA4
Now, going with the assumption that It's a glowing halo around the pearl, shouldn't we then be looking for a lamp post with a globe fixture or similar thing rather than a round pond or fountain?
MERLIN
Do you guys see any similarities to the image here...
https://i1.wp.com/www.bayarea.com/wp-co ... 27px&ssl=1
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
Do you guys see any similarities to the image here...
https://i1.wp.com/www.bayarea.com/wp-co ... 27px&ssl=1
maybe I can show you what I think is more similar,
I don't know if you're familiar with this one, the area above can be seen facing east of this image
Spiritr
MERLIN wrote::
Do you guys see any similarities to the image here...
https://i1.wp.com/www.bayarea.com/wp-co ... 27px&ssl=1
maybe
I
can show you what
I
think is more similar,
I
don't know if you're familiar with this one, the area above can be seen facing east
of
this image
Spiritr
Unknown:
Now, going with the assumption that It's a glowing halo around the pearl, shouldn't we then be looking for a lamp post with a globe fixture or similar thing rather than a round pond or fountain?
Based on what's found and using those image as relevant references, no, I don't think the round glowing light has anything to do with the buried spot.
But if you're suggesting to look for light poles and round shaped fixtures, then Yes, I think we should
I recommend visiting the history room on the 6th floor of the main library to anyone who is interested in history of the city.
*Avoid driving at all cost.
Spiritr
Unknown:
Now, going with the assumption that It's a glowing halo around the pearl, shouldn't we then be looking for a lamp post with a globe fixture or similar thing rather than a round pond or fountain?
Based on what's found and using those image as relevant references, no,
I
don't think the round glowing light has anything to do with the buried spot.
But if you're suggesting to look for light poles and round shaped fixtures, then Yes,
I
think we should
I
recommend visiting the history room on the 6th floor
of
the main library to anyone who is interested in history
of
the city.
*Avoid driving at all cost.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
That's a good point. If it's meant to be a glowing halo around the pearl then It would be uneven and not perfectly round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2YJduDyFA4
Now, going with the assumption that It's a glowing halo around the pearl, shouldn't we then be looking for a lamp post with a globe fixture or similar thing rather than a round pond or fountain?
Or, maybe....to paraphrase Sigmund....
"Sometimes, a pearl is just a pearl."
catherwood
Choice wrote::
I think he wanted to obscure the fact that it's a hexagon.
Or he wanted to obscure the fact that it is a circle. As it appears now, it is *neither* shape, and it a simple fuzzy glow.
catherwood
Choice wrote::
I
think he wanted to obscure the fact that it's a hexagon.
Or he wanted to obscure the fact that it is a circle. As it appears now, it is *neither* shape, and it a simple fuzzy glow.
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
It appears that what's under the pearl is a shadow , and giving the illusion that the pearl is high up.
Yes that shadow is important but not necessarily high up. I believe it is a circle that is casting a shadow and this is a nearby indicator of the casque burial site.
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
It appears that what's under the pearl is a shadow , and giving the illusion that the pearl is high up.
Yes that shadow is important but not necessarily high up.
I
believe it is a circle that is casting a shadow and this is a nearby indicator
of
the casque burial site.
MrBackstop
Here is my updated location for San Francisco. It is a matter of feet from Durian's target which I also see as a viable location. The farthest East entrance to the Bleachers (Giant Step) is the key. On the left hand side, under the decorative circle entrance, below the 4th or 5th vertical line is the casque's location. Here is the visual:
MrBackstop
Here is my updated location for San Francisco. It is a matter
of
feet from Durian's target which
I
also see as a viable location. The farthest East entrance to the Bleachers (Giant Step) is the key. On the left hand side, under the decorative circle entrance, below the 4th or 5th vertical line is the casque's location. Here is the visual:
Mister EZ
MrBackstop wrote::
Here is my updated location for San Francisco. It is a matter
of
feet from Durian's target which
I
also see as a viable location. The farthest East entrance to the Bleachers (Giant Step) is the key. On the left hand side, under the decorative circle entrance, below the 4th or 5th vertical line is the casque's location. Here is the visual:
https://
i
.imgur.com/PyW1oKa.jpg
So, from this view (for those with Google Earth or maps), you mean on the right side
of
that entrance to the bleachers, either directly below the circle or on the slope?
https://earth.app.goo.gl/N8cJ1u
https://goo.gl/maps/kk8jgKEDVwu
(Tilt up, zoom in)
This info about the bleachers and the work they did in that area doesn't affect a thing...nor does the slope to the right (E / NE)
of
the entrance to the bleachers?
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2175#p142415
Mister EZ
MrBackstop wrote::
Here is my updated location for San Francisco. It is a matter of feet from Durian's target which I also see as a viable location. The farthest East entrance to the Bleachers (Giant Step) is the key. On the left hand side, under the decorative circle entrance, below the 4th or 5th vertical line is the casque's location. Here is the visual:
https://i.imgur.com/PyW1oKa.jpg
So, from this view (for those with Google Earth or maps), you mean on the right side of that entrance to the bleachers, either directly below the circle or on the slope?
https://earth.app.goo.gl/N8cJ1u
https://goo.gl/maps/kk8jgKEDVwu
(Tilt up, zoom in)
This info about the bleachers and the work they did in that area doesn't affect a thing...nor does the slope to the right (E / NE) of the entrance to the bleachers?
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2175#p142415
gManTexas
I really like the efforts being made by people here, but I'm still wondering why people are looking at National Park properties? With the whole city and potentially surrounding areas in SF, why this one National Park? Also, to me, this area is a lot like Jackson Square in NOLA. It is constantly mobbed with people and probably a police presence. While you just might have been able to dig a quick hole and toss a casque in back in 1981, I really doubt that the Authors would want people digging holes all over a National Park, possibly for hours at a time.
While I don't like to compare the Chi-Cle puzzles to the rest, let's think about those guys for a minute. In Chicago they did multiple digs. In Cleveland, they dug for something like 8 hours. How does anyone rationalize being able to dig at the Martime Park without permission?
gManTexas
I
really like the efforts being made by people here, but
I
'm still wondering why people are looking at National Park properties? With the whole city and potentially surrounding areas in SF, why this one National Park? Also, to me, this area is a lot like Jackson Square in NOLA. It is constantly mobbed with people and probably a police presence. While you just might have been able to dig a quick hole and toss a casque in back in 1981,
I
really doubt that the Authors would want people digging holes all over a National Park, possibly for hours at a time.
While
I
don't like to compare the Chi-Cle puzzles to the rest, let's think about those guys for a minute. In Chicago they did multiple digs. In Cleveland, they dug for something like 8 hours. How does anyone rationalize being able to dig at the Martime Park without permission?
Mister EZ
gManTexas wrote::
I
really like the efforts being made by people here, but
I
'm still wondering why people are looking at National Park properties? With the whole city and potentially surrounding areas in SF, why this one National Park? Also, to me, this area is a lot like Jackson Square in NOLA. It is constantly mobbed with people and probably a police presence. While you just might have been able to dig a quick hole and toss a casque in back in 1981,
I
really doubt that the Authors would want people digging holes all over a National Park, possibly for hours at a time.
While
I
don't like to compare the Chi-Cle puzzles to the rest, let's think about those guys for a minute. In Chicago they did multiple digs. In Cleveland, they dug for something like 8 hours. How does anyone rationalize being able to dig at the Martime Park without permission?
I
dunno....
I
'm guessing that they'll say that the National Maritime Park wasn't established until '88, so it's 'fair game':
https://archive.org/details/AquaticParkAmphitheaterFocusedHSR/page/n9
To me, looks like all
of
those assets transferred in '78.
Mister EZ
gManTexas wrote::
I really like the efforts being made by people here, but I'm still wondering why people are looking at National Park properties? With the whole city and potentially surrounding areas in SF, why this one National Park? Also, to me, this area is a lot like Jackson Square in NOLA. It is constantly mobbed with people and probably a police presence. While you just might have been able to dig a quick hole and toss a casque in back in 1981, I really doubt that the Authors would want people digging holes all over a National Park, possibly for hours at a time.
While I don't like to compare the Chi-Cle puzzles to the rest, let's think about those guys for a minute. In Chicago they did multiple digs. In Cleveland, they dug for something like 8 hours. How does anyone rationalize being able to dig at the Martime Park without permission?
I dunno....I'm guessing that they'll say that the National Maritime Park wasn't established until '88, so it's 'fair game':
https://archive.org/details/AquaticParkAmphitheaterFocusedHSR/page/n9
To me, looks like all of those assets transferred in '78.
Choice
Does anyone know what this building is and when it was demolished?
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
Does anyone know what this building is and when it
whttps://s-hdnux-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... x250.jpgas
demolished?
I think it might be St Peter and St Paul’s on Washington Square.
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
Does anyone know what this building is and when it
whttps://s-hdnux-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... x250.jpgas
demolished?
I
think it might be St Peter and St Paul’s on Washington Square.
Choice
I
meant the building with yellow box around it.
Choice
I meant the building with yellow box around it.
Mister EZ
Choice, looks like it was / is Garfield Elementary at Filbert and Kearny
https://fernhilltoursdotcom.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/school-alley-the-early-history-
of
-garfield-elementary/
Haven't found any info about when the building or facade changed from this:
https://fernhilltoursdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/garfield-school-20th-century.png
(Rviewer1, you have to view the entire image that Choice posted, to see the right side and the building Choice circled..long press or right click, chose view image.....)
Mister EZ
Choice, looks like it was / is Garfield Elementary at Filbert and Kearny
https://fernhilltoursdotcom.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/school-alley-the-early-history-of-garfield-elementary/
Haven't found any info about when the building or facade changed from this:
https://fernhilltoursdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/garfield-school-20th-century.png
(Rviewer1, you have to view the entire image that Choice posted, to see the right side and the building Choice circled..long press or right click, chose view image.....)
Mister EZ
Durian wrote::
According to Wikipedia: "
Today's San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park was authorized in 1988...
" Parts of the park remained in city hands—Victorian Park and the cable car turnaround. Maybe this is my bad, but I wasn't even aware it belonged to the NPS until I started the hunt....
Mister EZ wrote::
I dunno....I'm guessing that they'll say that the National Maritime Park wasn't established until '88, so it's 'fair game':
https://archive.org/details/AquaticParkAmphitheaterFocusedHSR/page/n9
To me, looks like all of those assets transferred in '78.
Yes, thanks for confirming that as a reason for why some people still consider the old Aquatic Park area (including the area by the museum and the bleachers), despite that document that shows that the specific assets were transferred in '78 to the GGNRA, Durian.
Edit: Here's something that's interesting.....the wiki does say "
Today's San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park was authorized in 1988...
".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Maritime_National_Historical_Park
But, selectively pulling that out, ignores the sentence that's written immediately before it.
....however the former 1951 name changed in 1978 when the collections were acquired by the National Park Service."
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
I wouldn't say I'm considering AP "despite" the fact it's federal. I'm considering it because IMO that's where the clues lead.
Personally, I'm not entirely sure Preiss realized it was federal land, or even if he cared. There is no prohibition in the book against federal parks. And I'd guess (don't know for sure) that various non-federal government entities (cities, counties, states) have rules/legislation prohibiting activities he engaged in, i.e. disturbing/defacing public property, impersonating government officials, etc. I'd imagine he technically probably violated multiple codes by burying stuff all across the country without permission... So I'm not sure the fact that AP was federal property and there are statutes prohibiting digging there would have even made him think twice, to be honest. It's interesting to me that one of the verses specifically tells you to get permission. It's not a leap to say that by implication, Preiss might not have believed the other spots required permission, or that if he did believe so, he cared. Seems to me
The Secret
was published by Preiss under the assumption that either no permission was needed for digging holes on publicly owned lands, or it was a formality he and his readers could ignore—whether the land was federal or not.
So I'm operating under the assumption that on some level he cared more about his readers disturbing flower beds than whether they needed permission to dig around in public spaces. It's an interesting thing to think about...
It bothers me when people assume to know what BP was like or what his ethical characteristics were. This just seems like an answer to justify your particular theory on where you believe the casque was buried.
At face value, being very well educated, one would deduce that he was actually very methodical, especially given that he was a publisher. And that is not trying to read the tea leaves of BP's personality.
Mister EZ
Actually, Durian, I was going to point out the same things...
The 'rules' don't say that he didn't bury these on Federal land.
He might
not
have realized that San Francisco Maritime park was federalised in '78.
I'm not sure that his 'love of nature' took precedence over his desire to make money and avoid being sued.
Times
were
different in the late '70's, early '80's....people (and, therefore governments)
werent
rabidly protective (except for vandalism) about parks, Federal or otherwise.
The possibility of terrorism hitting locally
wasn't
a concern (despite the Iran hostage crisis and despite the '72 Munich Olympics)....so, security was casual....everywhere.
I've often read here (and elsewhere) opinions that state he absolutely, positively, wouldn't have buried something on federal land, back then, because he absolutely, positively, would have known that it was a federal offence that would have landed him (and, searchers) in jail. Really? He knew that, back then? And, he knew which locations were absolutely, positively off-limits?
This may be posted here on Q4T(or elsewhere), but.....has any of the older searchers received correspondence from Preiss before he died or is there an article where he stated that none of the casques are on Federal land? If not, then why exclude that as a possibility, just because that wouldn't occur in this day and age?
Instead, I think that foot traffic / busy, public places, would dictate a burial spot and whether he would have avoided a spot. (imho)
Mister EZ
gManTexas wrote::
It bothers me when people assume to know what BP was like or what his ethical characteristics were. This just seems like an answer to justify your particular theory on where you believe the casque was buried.
At face value, being very well educated, one would deduce that he was actually very methodical, especially given that he was a publisher. And that is not trying to read the tea leaves of BP's personality.
Sorry Gman, but I find that to be ironic.
(I know many well educated individuals who are anything
but
methodical, instead, taking things for granted in a very lackadaisical manner. We've never met him, so assuming that he was 'perfect', just because he was educated, seems like a way to justify a particular theory and preconceived notion about what he would or wouldn't do....)
gManTexas
Mister EZ wrote::
...just because he was educated, seems like a way to justify a particular theory and preconceived notion about what he would or wouldn't do....)
Not sure I follow you here, but like you said, I think we should not try to assume what he was thinking or what he would do.
My statement was more general. Direct evidence from the book is that these puzzles were very well thought out, even if the clues themselves leave something to be desired.
prospector
MrBackstop wrote::
Here is my updated location for San Francisco. It is a matter of feet from Durian's target which I also see as a viable location. The farthest East entrance to the Bleachers (Giant Step) is the key. On the left hand side, under the decorative circle entrance, below the 4th or 5th vertical line is the casque's location. Here is the visual:
Wow! I love your visual graphic set up your solve. I wish I had the capability to do something like this. Great Job.
prospector
drunknerds wrote::
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing:
37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the senior center is.
If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.
I am still trying to figure out how this site works. I want this image drunknerds posted back in February. If it does I will be happy.
I have photos of my own of the Senior Center but I can't post them. How do I get access to do that? I sure some of you know.
I took this set of images and compared it to my beginning thoughts on a solve. I will not post this to the thread and see if it posts at the current thread end.
prospector
drunknerds wrote::
Interesting note, meatypuffs, I'll check that out.
I always thought it weird that people would flip the image, when it already aligns with the park. When you overlay it normally, guess where she's pointing:
37th street and Fulton. That's exactly where the
senior
center is.
If you flip it, her index finger on her other hand is still pointing to 37th and Fulton.
I am still trying to figure out how this site works. I want this image drunknerds posted back in February. If it does I will be happy.
I have photos of my own of the
Senior
Center but I can't post them. How do I get access to do that? I sure some of you know.
I took this set of images and compared it to my beginning thoughts on a solve. I will not post this to the thread and see if it posts at the current thread end.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
I am still trying to figure out how this site works. I want this image drunknerds posted back in February. If it does I will be happy.
I have photos of my own of the
Senior
Center but I can't post them. How do I get access to do that? I sure some of you know.
I took this set of images and compared it to my beginning thoughts on a solve. I will not post this to the thread and see if it posts at the current thread end.
If you want the image someone posted, right click on the image and then you should be able to download or save to your computer or phone.
Next, if you want to post an image, it's a little bit of work. You cannot directly post because the site has exceeded it's storage limit. Probably a long time ago. You first have to sign up for an image hosting site or use a cloud service. Imgur is one you can use. Upload your image to the site and leave the window open. Come back here and start a post. When it is time to insert your image, go back to the hosting site and copy the link to the image. Then you can post the link to the image (hosted on another site) within your text here.
You may or may not have to use the img tags around the link to the image. There is button above the text writing box you use for posting.
I know, it is convoluted but the people that run this site must not want to pay for a gazillion terabytes of storage.
Let us know if you need more help.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
I am still trying to figure out how this site works. I want this image drunknerds posted back in February. If it does I will be happy.
I have photos of my own of the Senior Center but I can't post them. How do I get access to do that? I sure some of you know.
I took this set of images and compared it to my beginning thoughts on a solve. I will not post this to the thread and see if it posts at the current thread end.
If you want the image someone posted, right click on the image and then you should be able to download or save to your computer or phone.
Next, if you want to post an image, it's a little bit of work. You cannot directly post because the site has exceeded it's storage limit. Probably a long time ago. You first have to sign up for an image hosting site or use a cloud service. Imgur is one you can use. Upload your image to the site and leave the window open. Come back here and start a post. When it is time to insert your image, go back to the hosting site and copy the link to the image. Then you can post the link to the image (hosted on another site) within your text here.
You may or may not have to use the img tags around the link to the image. There is button above the text writing box you use for posting.
I know, it is convoluted but the people that run this site must not want to pay for a gazillion terabytes of storage.
Let us know if you need more help.
gManTexas
Durian wrote::
For the record, I wasn't trying to imply that BP was acting in any way unethically. I certainly don't believe he did anything unethical.
I believe you. I know that these puzzles can be maddening.
Let's look at some of the other casque locations, and some strong contenders for remaining locations.
1. Chicago - public park. The casque was away from the high traffic areas, in a corner behind the cover of trees.
2. Cleveland - public park. Behind a wall and more or less hidden from view. Potentially very little foot traffic.
3. Milwaukee - public park. Next to a statue and tucked away since the lighthouse was not inhabited or functional at the time. Low foot traffic.
4. Charleston - public park. If anyone agrees that the casque was buried in Hampton Park, it is a quiet park with ample trees and cover. It was relatively run down in 1982, with declining foot traffic.
5. Montreal - public park/area. If anyone believes that the casque was buried on Mount Royal, it is well traveled but completely covered with trees and foliage. This puzzle says to ask permission to dig out.
I believe there is a consistent pattern of publicly accessible, yet out of the way locations where the casques were buried. There was some amount of risk in burying these, and hopefully some thought regarding the readers having to dig them up.
I think Maritime Park in SF is just too risky and busy. I have not been there in many years, but I would imagine it is still mobbed with people every day. With so many other places in SF, like GGP, Coit Tower, LOH, Sutro Heights area... why would anyone choose the most touristy and heavily visited area? I just don't see it, even if the clues fit.
prospector
gManTexas wrote::
If you want the image someone posted, right click on the image and then you should be able to download or save to your computer or phone.
Next, if you want to post an image, it's a little bit of work. You cannot directly post because the site has exceeded it's storage limit. Probably a long time ago. You first have to sign up for an image hosting site or use a cloud service. Imgur is one you can use. Upload your image to the site and leave the window open. Come back here and start a post. When it is time to insert your image, go back to the hosting site and copy the link to the image. Then you can post the link to the image (hosted on another site) within your text here.
You may or may not have to use the img tags around the link to the image. There is button above the text writing box you use for posting.
I know, it is convoluted but the people that run this site must not want to pay for a gazillion terabytes of storage.
Let us know if you need more help.
Thanks Gman, I looked up Imgur and try using that.
gManTexas
Durian,
I guess the only way we will know is if, big if, someone pulls the casque out of the ground. I do agree with people that things were way more laid back in 1982.
Not sure if I'll ever make it back to SF, but I'm hoping some of the searchers out there can probe and dig, and fingers crossed, #3 will be found.
prospector
https://i.imgur.com/txpOSEf.jpg
Let's see if this works
prospector
prospector wrote::
https://i.imgur.com/txpOSEf.jpg
Let's see if this works
I signed up for imgur to start posting my photos. Here is the first on from the
Senior
Center on 37th and Fulton. I really looks like the image of the dragon on the front of the dress of Image one. I have written some more on this but I couldn't get it to post. I will try again tomorrow. I'm out for now.
prospector
prospector wrote::
https://i.imgur.com/txpOSEf.jpg
Let's see if this works
I signed up for imgur to start posting my photos. Here is the first on from the Senior Center on 37th and Fulton. I really looks like the image of the dragon on the front of the dress of Image one. I have written some more on this but I couldn't get it to post. I will try again tomorrow. I'm out for now.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
I signed up for imgur to start posting my photos. Here is the first on from the
Senior
Center on 37th and Fulton. I really looks like the image of the dragon on the front of the dress of Image one. I have written some more on this but I couldn't get it to post. I will try again tomorrow. I'm out for now.
If you search the thread, Goonie68 found the pheonix/dragon a while back and we talked about for a long time. A lot of info already posted.
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
I signed up for imgur to start posting my photos. Here is the first on from the Senior Center on 37th and Fulton. I really looks like the image of the dragon on the front of the dress of Image one. I have written some more on this but I couldn't get it to post. I will try again tomorrow. I'm out for now.
If you search the thread, Goonie68 found the pheonix/dragon a while back and we talked about for a long time. A lot of info already posted.
Choice
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=senior&start=1095
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=senior&start=493
Choice
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=
senior
&start=1095
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=
senior
&start=493
prospector
For some reason an earlier post I had written didn't go through. I appreciate what others have written, all the images and discussion I've read pertaining to the Senior Center entry point. I will try to locate the ideas I had written and post them tomorrow
prospector
Choice wrote::
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=senior&start=1095
Yes, this is good stuff.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=senior&start=493
MrBackstop
Mister EZ wrote::
So, from this view (for those with Google Earth or maps), you mean on the right side of that entrance to the bleachers, either directly below the circle or on the slope?
https://earth.app.goo.gl/N8cJ1u
https://goo.gl/maps/kk8jgKEDVwu
(Tilt up, zoom in)
This info about the bleachers and the work they did in that area doesn't affect a thing...nor does the slope to the right (E / NE) of the entrance to the bleachers?
hxxp://quest4treasure.co.uk/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=2175#p142415
Actually I'm talking about the left side as you enter the bleachers (where I have the yellow and orange arrows pointing). The reason I have the left side is because it mimics the prison window pattern (hidden map). That dot at the bottom left on the window sill always interested me, it has to be there for a reason. If you are a foot or two away from the decorative circles on that wall, under that same bar in the window, that would be an excellent probe spot.
Now, Malted Falcon has shared some great info on the 2009 repairs that took place to the bleachers and the museum. From what I've seen the basement does not go all the way over to the East Speaker tower and that Torre Pine. Someone might know better concerning the bleachers but I believe the area under it is mainly for museum storage. So even though much of the grounds were destroyed and rebuilt for the ceiling and skylights, I believe the area I'm targeting is still intact.
Mister EZ
Well, the link to maskit's post that I included has this picture....with the speaker tower in the background. Looks like that's right in front of the area you're talking about:
You can see the reverse side of the entrance, in the upper left of the picture.
MrBackstop
gManTexas wrote::
I really like the efforts being made by people here, but I'm still wondering why people are looking at National Park properties? With the whole city and potentially surrounding areas in SF, why this one National Park? Also, to me, this area is a lot like Jackson Square in NOLA. It is constantly mobbed with people and probably a police presence. While you just might have been able to dig a quick hole and toss a casque in back in 1981, I really doubt that the Authors would want people digging holes all over a National Park, possibly for hours at a time.
While I don't like to compare the Chi-Cle puzzles to the rest, let's think about those guys for a minute. In Chicago they did multiple digs. In Cleveland, they dug for something like 8 hours. How does anyone rationalize being able to dig at the Martime Park without permission?
Understand, that even though it was given a National Park status in the 70s, it wasn't actually acted upon until '88 due to lack of funds or management. BP could have easily picked this park before all the National Park signage went up in the late 80s.
As for me being here, it's simply because that's where the clues have led me. Durian and I have arrived almost at the same exact area but with different routes. If it turns out the casque was buried near the San Marco stone, then maybe it was removed in 2009 during the renovation, maybe not.
MrBackstop
Yes, that's right up there on the left on the other side of the wall. I have not been able to find any photos showing that space between the wall and Pine during the renovation. What I have seen is the area to the West of the Speaker tower and up to the wall towards the museum all dug up for the new skylights.
MrBackstop
prospector wrote::
Wow! I love your visual graphic set up your solve. I wish I had the capability to do something like this. Great Job.
Thank you prospector. I might have to resize that, didn't notice it got clipped off in my haste when customers came in.
Choice
All of a sudden there is so much emphasis on dragon in this thread. This is an inherent problem with these puzzles; the clues are so vague they could point to practically every corner of the city. After all San Francisco is/was a major hub for Chinese immigration and Shanghai has been her sister city since 1979.
Recently the discussions have been around 3 main solutions: Golden Gate Park, Ghirardelli/Maritime Park, and Pioneer Park, each with their own many final locations.
This makes the thread too chaotic and creates friction and frustration to the point that some members rather create new thread to focus discussion.
IMO the dragon shouldn’t be looked at ass an object but what it represents; it’s all twisty and made of blocks.
Also what I come across repeatedly is curve/circle and number 6 together:
• Clock face with time at 6 o’clock
• Giant 6 in the middle part of the dragon that forms a big curve
• Tail end of the dragon forms a curve/circle with Chinese 6 (六) showing in the bottom right corner of the frame
• Halo around the pearl itself is a circle made of 6 separate curves
I’ve been able to make sense of these curve/6 clues for a solution in Pioneer Park and not for any other location.
Spiritr
please explain, and what Verse/Verses should we use ?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
please explain, and what Verse/Verses should we use ?
And that's another problem. Some are on verse #7 camp, some on #10 and some on #5. That makes 9 different combinations, at least (3 verses and 3 macro location, at least).
So for now I've paused matching the puzzle to any verse. I've been able to pinpoint a location with image clues alone. I've posted all my findings here previously. At this point after nearly 40 years I don't think there's any rush. I've volunteered Goonie to check out the location at his convenience and I'm sure he'll let us all know of his findings as long as he finds it prudent!
prospector
I want to plug Golden Gate Park as the park to dig in. It is Huge. Try walking it looking for clues. It is overwhelming. I have discovered some really cool places in this park since I have been studying the Secret. I know how frustrating things must be for people who have been on this site for years and see newbies like me come up with some sort of solve that may have been talked about numerous times before. The issue is not that it hasn’t been talked about before but, I believe, there was more to be revealed. I have tried to read as much of the thread on Image 1 and Verse 7 that I could and I made a tentative list of the digs people have tried over the years. I don’t have a completed solve but I do have a beginning path. I want to start at with entering Golden Gate Park at Fulton and 37th at the Senior Center. The number 37 is in the hair of the woman in image 1.
I did start a post called Image 1/Verse 7 a few months ago.
First of all I don't think the clues in the image lead to the Flagpole at the Senior Center. I do believe someone has dug there.
I do think the image helps to determine the general location, City and Park. I believe, Image 1 leads to Golden Gate Park. The shape of the Dragon panel on the woman’s dress is close to the park's shape and the twists and turns in the image of the dragon’s tail give me the impression of all the twists and turns of the roads in the park.
The following list is some of my findings:
1. I believe the Senior Center is the place of entrance to Golden Gate Park for my beginning solve. Look at the image of the dragon from the Senior Center’s front door. There was an image posted on this site by drunknerds (I think). Some of the reasons I believe this is a good point to enter the park has been posted and gone over in Q4T and (PBworks). I have read over a lot of what is available on this site after my read of the book and formulating my own ideas. It was so exciting to match up what I saw about the image and the findings of others from this site.
2. Heading from the Senior Center into the park over to 36th Ave from there I would follow it to JFK Drive. (I also see the image of JFK’s profile in the rock and I also believed that image looks a lot like Lincoln.) Lincoln Way hugs almost the entire length of Golden Gate Park. I think looking at these two streets was important to the general location of the Treasure. Also, the way her arms are crossed looks like the split road of JFK Drive at 36th Avenue and not Crossover Drive. I will go into that later.
3. I check the Latitude and Longitude of the numbers found in the image located on he front panel of the dress -- 37, 38 and 122 and 123. This is not new information I thought up -- it has been mulled over by other people posting to this site. I was hooked when I saw this. This Latitude and Longitude is the general area of SF. AND: 37.769470 Latitude and -122.494530 Longitudes is in Golden Gate Park.
4. I also flip the image of the map, cut it in half and realized it is not a linear map. I didn’t look at it any longer like a step by step translation. It is an artistic interpretation of the map. Nothing in this image is linear to me. I see the Stow Lake, Strawberry Hill reference in the image but I believe it is just to help hint at Golden Gate Park. Not digging there anytime soon or the Falls. Some have dug there.
5. The Gh on the neck line gives a hint of the Great Highway. (Just a note here, I am not local to San Francisco, I always thought the Great Highway was Highway 1 -- until I started doing this deep dark historical study of BP’s Treasure hunt and before I read all the posts about 19th Ave, I paired the “Aces High with the Gh in this image with verse.) Maybe that was a good thing. I don’t know if that makes sense. I hope it does.
6. At this point, I bought into many other important links posted by the great treasure hunters of Q4T like the rose, pearl, the clock/watch points to 6 like the 6 month of June and The Rock.
7. I also think the rocks in the image look like the rock formations out in the Pacific Ocean by the Cliff House. For some reason the images of the rocks in Image 1 give me the impression of all the cypress trees in Golden Gate Park.
8. The North lake on the map of Golden Gate Park looks like one of the hallowed out parts in the rocks from the image.
9. I also believe the line across the image behind the woman looks like it may be the Great Highway. There is also a horizontal line behind the set of foreground rocks as an end to the blue color which may represent water.
I have written down a lot more about this image and before I even linked the verse with it so I could eliminate things that didn’t work. I am just getting started on my solve and it has proved to be really complicated because I can’t just brush aside things I see.
The twists, turns and winding down the path to a solve takes time. There are so many details to iron out and clear up before I can put down a coherent group of thoughts to post. This is what I have so far but I did some research at the SF Library on Friday. This may or may not have helped. I hope this wasn’t too long and hard to follow.
maltedfalcon
prospector wrote::
I want to plug Golden Gate Park as the park to dig in. It is Huge. Try walking it looking for clues. It is overwhelming. I have discovered some really cool places in this park since I have been studying the Secret. I know how frustrating things must be for people who have been on this site for years and see newbies like me come up with some sort of solve that may have been talked about numerous times before. The issue is not that it hasn’t been talked about before but, I believe, there was more to be revealed. I have tried to read as much of the thread on Image 1 and Verse 7 that I could and I made a tentative list of the digs people have tried over the years. I don’t have a completed solve but I do have a beginning path. I want to start at with entering Golden Gate Park at Fulton and 37th at the Senior Center.
First of all I don't think the clues in the image lead to the Flagpole at the Senior Center. I do believe someone has dug there.
Yes they have ,it isn't/wasn;t by the flagpole at the senior center.
which horizontal line are you talking about further down in your post?
and I agree with almost every thing you said and totally do not believe it is GGpark, your mileage may vary.
prospector
maltedfalcon wrote::
Yes they have ,it isn't/wasn;t by the flagpole at the senior center.
which horizontal line are you talking about further down in your post?
and I agree with almost every thing you said and totally do not believe it is GGpark, your mileage may vary.
Maltfalcon,
If you look at image almost in the center of it behind the woman you can see a line cutting the image in half. I can see another line in the upper part of it behind the large rocks and in front of the rocks that seem in the distance. It is just not natural to an organic image. I think of all of this art work as stylized and evoking allusion; however, there is some of this image that is concrete. I am still working on it.
Didn't you once think it was in Golden Gate Park but moved up the hill to the Legion of Honor? I have a really strong feeling it is in Golden Gate Park. But as it is always said "until it is dug up" anything goes.
drunknerds
I went to the flagpole with a friend while visiting SF this summer. He really wasn't into it, and was just along to hang out.
I told him it was bulldozed and that if it was at the senior center we might find fragments of clay and plexiglass.
We found a ton of plexiglass and fragments of white clay. His mind was blown and now he's into it.
For the record, I don't think we found anything. I sent the clay pieces to George who said it didn't match casques. Also he mentioned finding plexiglass all over the country on his digs, in the podcast. Also none of the fragments had any telltale relief.
It was super fun to see his mind blown, though.
I don't think anyone's completely eliminated everywhere on the senior lawn, and it is still my favorite place due to the six image matches I see there. However, I really hope it's not there because there is zero indication where the "giant step" should be made in relation to the pole. I don't want to solve puzzles if they have super ambiguous dig spot references like that. Plus it got totally bulldozed and redone, so it's not going to be retrievable if it ever was there, most likely.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
I don't think anyone's completely eliminated everywhere on the senior lawn, and it is still my favorite place due to the six image matches I see there. However, I really hope it's not there because there is zero indication where the "giant step" should be made in relation to the pole. I don't want to solve puzzles if they have super ambiguous dig spot references like that. Plus it got totally bulldozed and redone, so it's not going to be retrievable if it ever was there, most likely.
I took the information on the hunt to the guys with the backhoe at the senior center
and asked them to call me if they saw anything like the casque or pieces of the casque.
offered to buy the crew beer, they loved the idea,
but I never got a call and the entire lawn was removed. so it wasn't there.
maltedfalcon
prospector wrote::
I can see another line in the upper part of it behind the large rocks and in front of the rocks that seem in the distance. It is just not natural to an organic image. I think of all of this art work as stylized and evoking allusion; however, there is some of this image that is concrete. I am still working on it.
Didn't you once think it was in Golden Gate Park but moved up the hill to the Legion of Honor? I have a really strong feeling it is in Golden Gate Park. But as it is always said "until it is dug up" anything goes.
The upper line is a fold line where the painting was folded
No I do not think the casque was ever moved, Just like I dont think the chicago casque was ever buried at the water tower, or the cleveland casque was ever buried at the transit building.
Choice
prospector wrote::
Didn't you once think it was in Golden Gate Park but moved up the hill to the Legion of Honor?
I think prospector meant you changed your solve to L of H. from GGP.
Next stop, China Beach?
Choice
Another perspective: Verse 7
Giant pole and Giant step may not be objects like big flag pole or big steps or a leap.
Similar to "Running north, but first across" that describes the direction of a street, "Giant pole Giant step To the place" is giving us the name of a street to the place; where "giant pole giant step" is the name of the street. Just have to decipher it.
For example, 2 Giant makes Giants, and pole step scrambled makes people St.
Many possibilities. Have fun!
prospector
Choice wrote::
I think prospector meant you changed your solve to L of H. from GGP.
Next stop, China Beach?
Yes, I once thought Maltfalcon liked Golden Gate Park but I think there is more information being reveled to him at another location.
prospector
drunknerds wrote::
I went to the flagpole with a friend while visiting SF this summer. He really wasn't into it, and was just along to hang out.
I told him it was bulldozed and that if it was at the senior center we might find fragments of clay and plexiglass.
We found a ton of plexiglass and fragments of white clay. His mind was blown and now he's into it.
For the record, I don't think we found anything. I sent the clay pieces to George who said it didn't match casques. Also he mentioned finding plexiglass all over the country on his digs, in the podcast. Also none of the fragments had any telltale relief.
It was super fun to see his mind blown, though.
I don't think anyone's completely eliminated everywhere on the senior lawn, and it is still my favorite place due to the six image matches I see there. However, I really hope it's not there because there is zero indication where the "giant step" should be made in relation to the pole. I don't want to solve puzzles if they have super ambiguous dig spot references like that. Plus it got totally bulldozed and redone, so it's not going to be retrievable if it ever was there, most likely.
That must have been a kick. I don't see any reference to the "giant step" at that location either.
prospector
maltedfalcon wrote::
The upper line is a fold line where the painting was folded
No I do not think the casque was ever moved, Just like I dont think the chicago casque was ever buried at the water tower, or the cleveland casque was ever buried at the transit building.
My gosh the painting was folded? I think the paintings looked like they were redone by a graphic artist when added to the book for publication. I may be wrong but that is just a hunch I have at this point.
Choice
Also the painting is not plumb to the page of the book, maybe on purpose. So that it won't drive me crazy, I rotated the image one degree or so clockwise.
https://imgur.com/bA2Gjt2
Or maybe it wasn't scanned straight.
mariska
The upper line is a fold line where the painting was folded
[/quote]
Hey Maltedfalcon,
Do you mean the line at the top, through the rocks?
How do you know it has been folded?
If you look at the original painting, it's also there. (see image from the expedition unknown video at 25.45 minutes)
It almost looks like it were two pieces of board/paper put together or something... like JJP started with a rectangular painting and decided he had to fit the moons and door in later or something...
expedition unknown video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7pyMi9TiX8
mariska
Choice wrote::
Also the painting is not plumb to the page of the book, maybe on purpose. So that it won't drive me crazy, I rotated the image one degree or so clockwise.
https://imgur.com/bA2Gjt2
Or maybe it wasn't scanned straight.
I think it's scanning, mine is straight...
I do have a difference in the images on the right page being a bit higher on the page than the left, but that's just an 80s printing/binding thing I think.
prospector
Choice wrote::
Also the painting is not plumb to the page of the book, maybe on purpose. So that it won't drive me crazy, I rotated the image one degree or so clockwise.
https://imgur.com/bA2Gjt2
Or maybe it wasn't scanned straight.
Thanks for posting this. It is a much better image than the one in the book. The printing in the book I have is dreadful.
Choice
You must have one of the new prints. I read the feedbacks and didn't get one. They're good only for the written parts.
Original version still becomes available occasionally
https://tinyurl.com/y7qkxkrn
prospector
mariska wrote::
The upper line is a fold line where the painting was folded
Hey Maltedfalcon,
Do you mean the line at the top, through the rocks?
How do you know it has been folded?
If you look at the original painting, it's also there. (see image from the expedition unknown video at 25.45 minutes)
It almost looks like it were two pieces of board/paper put together or something... like JJP started with a rectangular painting and decided he had to fit the moons and door in later or something...
expedition unknown video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7pyMi9TiX8
[/quote]
Hey mariska, I can't open the youtube because it says the copyright is not valid or something like that. The line at the top is just the separation of the water-like part from the rocks. The center line shows up as a purposeful and intentional part of the image and not a fold.
prospector
Choice wrote::
You must have one of the new prints. I read the feedbacks and didn't get one. They're good only for the written parts.
Original version still becomes available occasionally
https://tinyurl.com/y7qkxkrn
Yes, this new book is pretty much crap. I can't believe I bought it, but I just had to get it. The art work was so beautiful and I was hoping I was going to find something close to the original. I would love to find a first edition but I can't pay what people are asking on ebay etc. I don't think many were printed. I can see how much better the images look from the link you have posted.
Choice
prospector wrote::
The line at the top is just the separation of the water-like part from the rocks. The center line shows up as a purposeful and intentional part of the image and not a fold.
Maltedfalcon means the fold shown by the red arrow that goes all the way across not the water line.
https://imgur.com/8Qi91C4
Choice
Choice wrote::
Another perspective: Verse 7
Giant pole and Giant step may not be objects like big flag pole or big steps or a leap.
Similar to "Running north, but first across" that describes the direction of a street, "Giant pole Giant step To the place" is giving us the name of a street to the place; where "giant pole giant step" is the name of the street. Just have to decipher it.
For example, 2 Giant makes Giants, and pole step scrambled makes people St.
Many possibilities. Have fun!
Since I got crickets (as usual) I’ll expand on my thought:
Giant Pole
I’m looking for a street or location name. Something like St., Ave., Cl., BLVD, Pl.
Pole contains P+L and also sound like Pl.
Now a bit of scrabble work for the rest of the letters that would sound like Giant.
I came up with Genoa, It.
Put it all together and you get Genoa, It. Pl.
Genoa, Italy is the birthplace of Columbus.
At the foot of the Telegraph hill (Coit), across from the Garfield Elementary is Genoa Pl.
https://tinyurl.com/ybxe5vwu
prospector
Choice wrote::
Maltedfalcon means the fold shown by the red arrow that goes all the way across not the water line.
https://imgur.com/8Qi91C4
Hey,
Thanks
Ok, That may be a fold or some sort of imperfection. I have no guess on what that is.
Spiritr
Choice, try applying it with the Japanese hints, maybe it'll help
Spiritr
whatever that line is,
mariska
Choise: I have the original, not the new print (I agree on that one being only good for the story, not the images), and I even measured it to be sure, mine is straight on the page.
So I don't think there's any meaning in it... sorry. Maybe someone can double check for you ?
Thank you Spiritr for the picture, That's the line I meant as well. glad to hear we're all talking about the same line
(sorry the youtube link didn't work. probably only works in europe...)
Maltedfalcon: you say it is folded, did someone tell you, or was it mentioned somewhere or is it a theory? It would be cool if it was folded (like those fold-in MAD covers). I've tried 'digitally' fold it onto the other lines, but I'm not getting anything interesting though... I was hoping to find a new shape that would lead us somewhere.. (if it's painted on board, that woud not fold very well, he could still have made the line there on purpose though, to make us fold the printed version)
It could also be a later add-on, which would explain it being so different in shape from the rest. If the picture had stopped at the line, it would have made more sense size wise (although still narrow compared to the rest). But I'm wondering if the line would have been visible after being painted over... Does anyone have information about the material these were painted on (paper/board/canvas?) and what paint JJP used for these (oil/acrylic?) ? It looks like acrylic on board to me (like he usually uses, most paintings in his book Origins are ) ...
Either way the line is there, not just in the print.
MERLIN
Spiritr wrote::
whatever that line is,
Has anyone else noticed in the SF image where the dragons head should be there is a large profile of a man's head looking to the left side of the image?
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
Choice, try applying it with the Japanese hints, maybe it'll help
Which Japanese hint specifically are you referring to? The chicken thing? That would toss us back to GGP.
There still isn't a consensus on which verse to use with image 1.
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Which Japanese hint specifically are you referring to? The chicken thing? That would toss us back to GGP.
There still isn't a consensus on which verse to use with image 1.
Carefully read everything one more time, I'm sure you can figure it out
.
Oh, btw, if you like Japanese cuisine, have you ever tried their Curry dishes?
next time if you're having Japanese food, see if they have this one on their menu
Chicken 그囗У木"
Choice
Don't have patience for games
Kalessin
Spiritr wrote::
whatever that line is,
It looks like the Image 1 painting is behind glass in its frame and matting (with the top curve, that's not a cheap framing job, either).
The dark line could a picture rail molding on the wall of JJP's studio, behind the camera position.
Note that there is no reflection on the unframed image to the right of the Image 1 painting.
Choice
Kalessin wrote::
It looks like the Image 1 painting is behind glass in its frame and matting (with the top curve, that's not a cheap framing job, either).
The dark line could a picture rail molding on the wall of JJP's studio, behind the camera position.
Note that there is no reflection on the unframed image to the right of the Image 1 painting.
Spiritr wrote::
Chicken 그囗У木"
Choice wrote::
Original version still becomes available occasionally
https://tinyurl.com/y7qkxkrn
I think the framing was done well after the photo was taken for the book. Notice there's a line frame around the painting in the book that is most likely under the matting. Unless it was added graphically later.
I think if it was done on canvas, it was stretched improperly, perhaps overstretched at that area. Also again it looks to me like it's not standing straight compared to the frame. Need to rotate that too!
Chicken = pollo, reads like polo (field in GGP) meaning pole
This one is a bit beat up but Spiritr might want it!
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Another perspective: Verse 7
Giant pole and Giant step may not be objects like big flag pole or big steps or a leap.
Similar to "Running north, but first across" that describes the direction of a street, "Giant pole Giant step To the place" is giving us the name of a street to the place; where "giant pole giant step" is the name of the street. Just have to decipher it.
For example, 2 Giant makes Giants, and pole step scrambled makes people St.
Many possibilities. Have fun!
I like your thinking Choice. When trying to decipher some of the words in the verses I think there are words used with more than the obvious definition and sometimes we need look at other definitions of words....noun, verb, adjective.
When I looked at this part of the Verse specifically I noticed that the word "place" also means "seat". My spot at Aquatic Park is that far East entrance before you enter down into the East Bleachers (Giant Step), which are seats. This was one of the clues that helped solidify my solves for Image 1.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
Another perspective: Verse 7
Giant pole and Giant step may not be objects like big flag pole or big steps or a leap.
Similar to "
Running
north, but first across" that describes the direction of a street, "Giant pole Giant step To the place" is giving us the name of a street to the place; where "giant pole giant step" is the name of the street. Just have to decipher it.
For example, 2 Giant makes Giants, and pole step scrambled makes people St.
Many possibilities. Have fun!
I like your thinking Choice. When trying to decipher some of the words in the verses I think there are words used with more than the obvious definition and sometimes we need look at other definitions of words....noun, verb, adjective.
When I looked at this part of the Verse specifically I noticed that the word "place" also means "seat". My spot at Aquatic Park is that far East entrance before you enter down into the East Bleachers (Giant Step), which are seats. This was one of the clues that helped solidify my solves for Image 1.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
Oh, btw, if you like Japanese cuisine, have you ever tried their Curry dishes?
next time if you're having Japanese food, see if they have this one on their menu
Chicken 그囗У木"
I don't care for Japanese food. Love Chinese tho. When I was a kid I wanted to open a Chinese restaurant in NYC and call it
"I'm wokin hea"
But I couldn't cook!
Spiritr
LOL did you know the word "hea" means "careless" and "perfunctory" in Chinese?
Choice
Did anyone in this forum buy this book?
https://tinyurl.com/y8tjs7xw
Kalessin
Choice wrote::
I think the framing was done well after the photo was taken for the book. Notice there's a line frame around the painting in the book that is most likely under the matting. Unless it was added graphically later.
I think if it was done on canvas, it was stretched improperly, perhaps overstretched at that area. Also again it looks to me like it's not standing straight compared to the frame. Need to rotate that too!
Hey, JJP? Your paintings are great and all, but we need to have a serious conversation about your choice in framing shops.
Choice
I wish we had a way of polling the members and get their opinion on which verse belongs to image 1. I'm curious to know if there's a majority consensus.
The reversed Gh is the clue to the verse. It tells you the number of lines in the verse and the direction the verse should be read.
I think Hunter23 has similar idea with a twist. Posted in verse 7 thread.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
... I like Joan of Arc, and the look of the columns in the building in relationship to the barred window, but again just speaking for myself, can't reconcile that as a whole.
I do see reference to Joan of Arc on the rocks below barred gate, but may be hint only to the arc part i.e. curve or arch.
Tons of clues for that solution. Will slap some graphics together after lunch break!
mariska
I believe that if there are outlines like these of buildings or statues etc. that they should be seen in that perspective from the dig-spot. (unless they are too obviously just referring to a landmark, like the watertower in chicago, or lines in the shape of rivers etc)
If that would be so, do you believe the dig spot should be somewhere near pier 43 in that perspective?
I've made an image of the area and the yellow color roughly representing the 'area of interest'. But doesn't seem possible to dig anywhere... not even in the 80s, if you see the '87 google earth image on the left.
Choice
Just trying to make sense of the Image 1 clues and post what I observe or connect. It's relevance or intent is for you to decide.
If I may make another observation: If one considers the barred gate being Alcatraz, then it's position to the Ferry Arch is near perfect mirror. Perhaps we should mirror the whole thing?
Also if I understand it right, JP was given a stack of Polaroids and maps and free rein to paint an image. How does one come to the conclusion that the angle of landmarks must be the POV of the dig site?
Rviewer1
Just want to let people know there is a 1982 first edition Secret book for sale for $500 on Amazon.
Choice
$470 too much for my budget!
mariska
I've always been wondering about that man in the mountains...
It's been the first thing that I noticed looking at this picture.
A little while ago I was going over the Cleveland find and thought I'd explore the other cultural gardens a bit more. And realized that the statues there obviously would represent the most 'logical' people of those countries to include in a puzzle. So for China that would be Confucius... Ever since I've seen the man as Confucius, what do you think ?
“When a wise man points at the moon the idiot looks at the finger.”
― Confucius
Choice
He who runs in front of the bus gets "tired", and the one who runs after it gets "exhausted".
I do like the resemblance a lot, however it looks like the bow on his sash (or his hands) form a lotus that's commonly associated with Buddha.
Or it may be a lion or foo dog paw, similar to the ones at the Dragon's Gate. Notice one of the nails is broken. Is there a statue with damaged toe?
prospector
mariska wrote::
I've always been wondering about that man in the mountains...
It's been the first thing that I noticed looking at this picture.
A little while ago I was going over the Cleveland find and thought I'd explore the other cultural gardens a bit more. And realized that the statues there obviously would represent the most 'logical' people of those countries to include in a puzzle. So for China that would be Confucius... Ever since I've seen the man as Confucius, what do you think ?
That is one long url. I couldn't open it. Do you have a graphic that points to what you are talking about. I like what you are saying. I can see a similar figure in the rocks, but I'm not sure I am seeing the same thing.
“When a wise man points at the moon the idiot looks at the finger.”
― Confucius
mariska
prospector wrote::
That is one long url. I couldn't open it. Do you have a graphic that points to what you are talking about. I like what you are saying. I can see a similar figure in the rocks, but I'm not sure I am seeing the same thing.
This better ?
https://tinyurl.com/y9zy5lv6
mariska
Choice wrote::
He who runs in front of the bus gets "tired", and the one who runs after it gets "exhausted".
I do like the resemblance a lot, however it looks like the bow on his sash (or his hands) form a lotus that's commonly associated with Buddha.
Or it may be a lion or foo dog paw, similar to the ones at the Dragon's Gate. Notice one of the nails is broken. Is there a statue with damaged toe?
yeah you're right is does look like a bit like a paw (with one toe, pointing at a fold ?) , you mean this one on the gate?
I also think the black straight line above the 'paw' and the shoulder part are strangely shaped... no idea what that means.
I was kinda hoping for a statue of Confucius in San Francisco being an exact match for the man in the mountain
... wishful thinking ...
MrBackstop
Choice
Great find with that angle of the top rock and Pier 43. Also like what you've come up with as far as the square and triangle being 4 sides and 3 sides for 43.
mariska
I believe a lot of the clues can be seen from the dig spot itself but some are also waymarkers getting you to the spot without being able to see it necessarily. I see Pier 43 as the starting point to this puzzle. Other clues that members have found help put the puzzles pieces together with the Verse.
Harley Quinn
https://archive.org/details/SanFrancisco1955CinemascopeFilm
San Francisco (1955 Cinemascope film)
Love seeing the classic cars.
prospector
Harley Quinn wrote::
https://archive.org/details/SanFrancisco1955CinemascopeFilm
San Francisco (1955 Cinemascope film)
Love seeing the classic cars.
Thanks for sharing the old film. I was quite amused.
Notice the population in the '50s
Choice
This is a cool picture. It looks like the mermaid is holding the cask!
Choice
mariska wrote::
I was kinda hoping for a statue of Confucius in San Francisco being an exact match for the man in the mountain
... wishful thinking ...
There's always the fortune teller on Grant. No clue how old it is tho.
Also may consider statue of Sun Yat-Sen in St. Mary's Square, one block away from Dragon's Gate. Note the crack in the middle you pointed out earlier.
Choice
mariska wrote::
I
was kinda hoping for a statue
of
Confucius in San Francisco being an exact match for the man in the mountain
... wishful thinking ...
There's always the fortune teller on Grant. No clue how old it is tho.
Also may consider statue
of
Sun Yat-Sen in St. Mary's Square, one block away from Dragon's Gate. Note the crack in the middle you pointed out earlier.
mariska
Choice wrote::
Also may consider statue of Sun Yat-Sen in St. Mary's Square, one block away from Dragon's Gate. Note the crack in the middle you pointed out earlier.
Yes I like that one as a possibility as well, it has the folded hands (also pointing at the fold) and a similar facial expression.
mariska
Choice wrote::
Also may consider statue
of
Sun Yat-Sen in St. Mary's Square, one block away from Dragon's Gate. Note the crack in the middle you pointed out earlier.
Yes
I
like that one as a possibility as well, it has the folded hands (also pointing at the fold) and a similar facial expression.
Choice
Here's an interesting flour sack towel design:
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
I
took the information on the hunt to the guys with the backhoe at the senior center
and asked them to call me if they saw anything like the casque or pieces
of
the casque.
offered to buy the crew beer, they loved the idea,
but
I
never got a call and the entire lawn was removed. so it wasn't there.
Seriously,
I
LOVE that you did this,
I
learned a lot by watching how you recruit people to help you, it's so cool. But, again, we found a bunch
of
plexiglass and weird clay pieces that definitely resembled those found in Zinn's casque sitting right on top
of
the post-bulldozed-and-reset ground So... do you think the construction crew didn't see those or...?
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
I took the information on the hunt to the guys with the backhoe at the senior center
and asked them to call me if they saw anything like the casque or pieces of the casque.
offered to buy the crew beer, they loved the idea,
but I never got a call and the entire lawn was removed. so it wasn't there.
Seriously, I LOVE that you did this, I learned a lot by watching how you recruit people to help you, it's so cool. But, again, we found a bunch of plexiglass and weird clay pieces that definitely resembled those found in Zinn's casque sitting right on top of the post-bulldozed-and-reset ground So... do you think the construction crew didn't see those or...?
Choice
I think he should've offered them beer AND salami sandwich
Choice
I
think he should've offered them beer AND salami sandwich
Choice
That's too bad Durian.
I
was hoping you could probe and put the whole thing to rest. You can always concentrate on the Russian Hill Park area. Got a nice view
of
your area.
Choice
That's too bad Durian. I was hoping you could probe and put the whole thing to rest. You can always concentrate on the Russian Hill Park area. Got a nice view of your area.
Rviewer1
Goldengate wrote::
Here's one more snapshot
of
a fold-out post card map -- this one is from the 70s.
I
think this, along with postcards from gift shops is exactly the kind
of
ephemera BP would have sent JJP to work from (along with notes and Polaroids) when creating the images...
Goldengate,
That’s a good map but it blurs when
I
zoom in.
I
have been looking over maps and locations. There is a lot to like with the Chinese Pavilion on Stow Lake. To me this puzzle hinges on the object
of
Twain’s attention. Even though you could point to a paddle boat as being that object.
I
’m not feeling good about that or the pavilion itself as being the object. For me it has to really have been an important object that says here
I
am. Shakespeare works. Joan de Arc does. Books he’s written and places he has worked and lived.
I
have not been to the pavilion. From the pavilion what are the site confirmers that can be seen.
I
like that it is a moon pavilion and that bridge could be a gian step.
I
have been trying to count onjects at and around the pavilion to come up with the number 11. Would you feel good with putting an X around the bridge or palm tree?
I
’m starting to look at the verses in a different way. In other words only as visual confirmers and not necessarily in a linear manner.
I
keep coming back to the word Giant.
I
don’t think it is literal.
I
think it is a nod to the San Francisco Giants. So it could be taken. Pole and Step. But with my non linear route for me the treasure is going to be at the object
of
Twain’s attention.
Rviewer1
Goldengate wrote::
Here's one more snapshot of a fold-out post card map -- this one is from the 70s. I think this, along with postcards from gift shops is exactly the kind of ephemera BP would have sent JJP to work from (along with notes and Polaroids) when creating the images...
Goldengate,
That’s a good map but it blurs when I zoom in. I have been looking over maps and locations. There is a lot to like with the Chinese Pavilion on Stow Lake. To me this puzzle hinges on the object of Twain’s attention. Even though you could point to a paddle boat as being that object. I’m not feeling good about that or the pavilion itself as being the object. For me it has to really have been an important object that says here I am. Shakespeare works. Joan de Arc does. Books he’s written and places he has worked and lived.
I have not been to the pavilion. From the pavilion what are the site confirmers that can be seen. I like that it is a moon pavilion and that bridge could be a gian step. I have been trying to count onjects at and around the pavilion to come up with the number 11. Would you feel good with putting an X around the bridge or palm tree?
I’m starting to look at the verses in a different way. In other words only as visual confirmers and not necessarily in a linear manner. I keep coming back to the word Giant. I don’t think it is literal. I think it is a nod to the San Francisco Giants. So it could be taken. Pole and Step. But with my non linear route for me the treasure is going to be at the object of Twain’s attention.
catherwood
drunknerds wrote::
...we found a bunch
of
plexiglass and weird clay pieces that definitely resembled those found in Zinn's casque sitting right on top
of
the post-bulldozed-and-reset ground...
Did
I
miss the full report on this find? Did you gather pieces? Plexiglass is probably too generic to compare to other plastic samples, but the pottery could be analyzed. Did you post any photos
of
these artifacts?
catherwood
drunknerds wrote::
...we found a bunch of plexiglass and weird clay pieces that definitely resembled those found in Zinn's casque sitting right on top of the post-bulldozed-and-reset ground...
Did I miss the full report on this find? Did you gather pieces? Plexiglass is probably too generic to compare to other plastic samples, but the pottery could be analyzed. Did you post any photos of these artifacts?
Choice
Finding plastic and ceramic pieces sitting near surface is problematic.
I
find those all the time in my vegetable garden. Certain birds
i
.e. blue jays tend to find and then hide their finds in soft dirt instinctively.
Choice
Finding plastic and ceramic pieces sitting near surface is problematic. I find those all the time in my vegetable garden. Certain birds i.e. blue jays tend to find and then hide their finds in soft dirt instinctively.
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
I
’m starting to look at the verses in a different way. In other words only as visual confirmers and not necessarily in a linear manner.
I
keep coming back to the word Giant.
I
don’t think it is literal.
I
think it is a nod to the San Francisco Giants. So it could be taken. Pole and Step. But with my non linear route for me the treasure is going to be at the object
of
Twain’s attention.
If you insist on GGP then maybe you should consider "Giant pole" as "Large polo" field and Giant "step" as horseshoe. This was suggested 12 yrs or so ago that may deserve a second look.
hxxp://silverinsf.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... -pits.html
https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/gold ... ncisco-ca/
I
know the pits are completely across the park but that's all
I
could come up with!
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
I’m starting to look at the verses in a different way. In other words only as visual confirmers and not necessarily in a linear manner. I keep coming back to the word Giant. I don’t think it is literal. I think it is a nod to the San Francisco Giants. So it could be taken. Pole and Step. But with my non linear route for me the treasure is going to be at the object of Twain’s attention.
If you insist on GGP then maybe you should consider "Giant pole" as "Large polo" field and Giant "step" as horseshoe. This was suggested 12 yrs or so ago that may deserve a second look.
hxxp://silverinsf.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... -pits.html
https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/gold ... ncisco-ca/
I know the pits are completely across the park but that's all I could come up with!
Choice
mariska wrote::
... it has the folded hands (also pointing at the fold) and a similar facial expression.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=535
mariska
Choice wrote::
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=535
Yes
I
've read that,
I
meant compared to the man in the mountain though, not the women... still would put you in the same area...
mariska
Choice wrote::
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=535
Yes I've read that, I meant compared to the man in the mountain though, not the women... still would put you in the same area...
Choice
Durian wrote::
... So my hunt for the casque has essentially ended. It's been fun though. Good luck to everyone with their solves!
So to throw some fuel on fire! Using the hypothesis that the verse should be read backwards, Stonewall's door is the destination. Looking at the painting, the stonewall is the dragon made of stone blocks. So it's door wide open is it's mouth. Coit used to be the observation post for the bay with the semaphore. Eyes are window to your soul. It's head looks like a VW bug, window and all. Unless you remove the top part of it's head then it looks like a bullet train!
Choice
Durian wrote::
... So my hunt for the casque has essentially ended. It's been fun though. Good luck to everyone with their solves!
So to throw some fuel on fire! Using the hypothesis that the verse should be read backwards, Stonewall's door is the destination. Looking at the painting, the stonewall is the dragon made
of
stone blocks. So it's door wide open is it's mouth. Coit used to be the observation post for the bay with the semaphore. Eyes are window to your soul. It's head looks like a VW bug, window and all. Unless you remove the top part
of
it's head then it looks like a bullet train!
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
If you insist on GGP then maybe you should consider "Giant pole" as "Large polo" field and Giant "step" as horseshoe. This was suggested 12 yrs or so ago that may deserve a second look.
hxxp://silverinsf.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... -pits.html
https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/gold ... ncisco-ca/
I know the pits are completely across the park but that's all I could come up with!
Thanks Choice
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
If you insist on GGP then maybe you should consider "Giant pole" as "Large polo" field and Giant "step" as horseshoe. This was suggested 12 yrs or so ago that may deserve a second look.
hxxp://silverinsf.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... -pits.html
https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/gold ... ncisco-ca/
I
know the pits are completely across the park but that's all
I
could come up with!
Thanks Choice
Choice
Another interpretation of "sweet smell":
Sweet!... Right on the nose!
Is that a pearl on dragon's nose or a pimple?!
Choice
Another interpretation
of
"sweet smell":
Sweet!... Right on the nose!
Is that a pearl on dragon's nose or a pimple?!
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Another interpretation
of
"sweet smell":
Sweet!... Right on the nose!
Is that a pearl on dragon's nose or a pimple?!
its a scan artifact. It's not in the actual book.
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Another interpretation of "sweet smell":
Sweet!... Right on the nose!
Is that a pearl on dragon's nose or a pimple?!
its a scan artifact. It's not in the actual book.
Choice
Must be a bogus scan someone sent me.
I
wish someone could take a good iphone picture on tripod
Choice
Must be a bogus scan someone sent me. I wish someone could take a good iphone picture on tripod
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Must be a bogus scan someone sent me.
I
wish someone could take a good iphone picture on tripod
Spiritr
Choice wrote::
Must be a bogus scan someone sent me. I wish someone could take a good iphone picture on tripod
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
There have been several high res scans
of
the book that have been made public. None are perfect... but if you compare and contrast them, it may help to make out the scanning artifacts that aren't in the book.
I
was using one
of
those hi-res. images and
I
was told by Mr. "someone" that my scan was crap, so
I
used his!
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
There have been several high res scans of the book that have been made public. None are perfect... but if you compare and contrast them, it may help to make out the scanning artifacts that aren't in the book.
I was using one of those hi-res. images and I was told by Mr. "someone" that my scan was crap, so I used his!
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
Repeat after me: 1982... 1982... 1982... 1982...
It would be nice if
I
had an original copy
of
the book, but the cost is outrageous.
I
do not zoom in higher than 5X, a typical magnifying glass
of
1982 era technology!
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
Repeat after me: 1982... 1982... 1982... 1982...
It would be nice if I had an original copy of the book, but the cost is outrageous. I do not zoom in higher than 5X, a typical magnifying glass of 1982 era technology!
Choice
So the other night Linda S
of
wiki suggested that we should take a closer look at Grace Cathedral and Huntington park area because her nephew saw Grace written by the dragon.
I
know Scrappy was looking at that area once.
I
think this is what she's referring to:
Choice
So the other night Linda S of wiki suggested that we should take a closer look at Grace Cathedral and Huntington park area because her nephew saw Grace written by the dragon. I know Scrappy was looking at that area once. I think this is what she's referring to:
Halcon
Hello Everyone.
Here follows the rambling thoughts
of
a Senior Citizen based 5,239 miles away in Derbyshire, England.
All the images shown in the book The Secret ( A Treasure Hunt ) are Gestaits.
Image one is a typical gestalt with an Anthropomorphic Landscape, which obviously accounts for the many Pareidolia moments encountered by all intrepid Treasure Seekers.
So when Apophenia sets in the mind becomes anarchic and turbid.
Sagacity is called for. Without lucidity, all images become fatuous and nugatory.
I
have read through most
of
the posts on this Forum, and had a few smiles and chuckles along the way. Anus Corn hole is head and shoulders in the lead for laugh out loud moments ( only Joshing! ) xx
My deepest respect to ALL the contributors on this site for their thoughts and proposals for the San Francisco Casque ( Cask ) burial location. Fantastic work everyone.
But, It’s not turned up yet!
Halcon
Hello Everyone.
Here follows the rambling thoughts of a Senior Citizen based 5,239 miles away in Derbyshire, England.
All the images shown in the book The Secret ( A Treasure Hunt ) are Gestaits.
Image one is a typical gestalt with an Anthropomorphic Landscape, which obviously accounts for the many Pareidolia moments encountered by all intrepid Treasure Seekers.
So when Apophenia sets in the mind becomes anarchic and turbid.
Sagacity is called for. Without lucidity, all images become fatuous and nugatory.
I have read through most of the posts on this Forum, and had a few smiles and chuckles along the way. Anus Corn hole is head and shoulders in the lead for laugh out loud moments ( only Joshing! ) xx
My deepest respect to ALL the contributors on this site for their thoughts and proposals for the San Francisco Casque ( Cask ) burial location. Fantastic work everyone.
But, It’s not turned up yet!
Choice
Huh?!
I
think
I
need to go back to school.
Choice
Huh?! I think I need to go back to school.
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Huh?! I think I need to go back to school.
As far as I know, gesalt isnt a thing as much as it's a way of describing the process your brain uses to interpret an image. Take sf for instance. You see a chick with a dragon dress, but what it really is is a group of circles, curves, lines and other shapes that trick your mind into thinking it's a chick in a dragon dress.
Hes saying (I think) that process is tricking your mind into seeing things that arent actually there, and in order to solve the puzzle you need to look at the shapes, and how the shapes work with the shapes in the other images instead of thw image as a whole.
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Huh?!
I
think
I
need to go back to school.
As far as
I
know, gesalt isnt a thing as much as it's a way
of
describing the process your brain uses to interpret an image. Take sf for instance. You see a chick with a dragon dress, but what it really is is a group
of
circles, curves, lines and other shapes that trick your mind into thinking it's a chick in a dragon dress.
Hes saying (
I
think) that process is tricking your mind into seeing things that arent actually there, and in order to solve the puzzle you need to look at the shapes, and how the shapes work with the shapes in the other images instead
of
thw image as a whole.
Choice
I thought that's what we've been doing.
Choice
I
thought that's what we've been doing.
Merlot Brougham
Halcon wrote::
Hello Everyone.
Here follows the rambling thoughts of a Senior Citizen based 5,239 miles away in Derbyshire, England.
All the images shown in the book The Secret ( A Treasure Hunt ) are Gestaits.
Image one is a typical gestalt with an Anthropomorphic Landscape, which obviously accounts for the many Pareidolia moments encountered by all intrepid Treasure Seekers.
So when Apophenia sets in the mind becomes anarchic and turbid.
Sagacity is called for. Without lucidity, all images become fatuous and nugatory.
I have read through most of the posts on this Forum, and had a few smiles and chuckles along the way. Anus Corn hole is head and shoulders in the lead for laugh out loud moments ( only Joshing! ) xx
My deepest respect to ALL the contributors on this site for their thoughts and proposals for the San Francisco Casque ( Cask ) burial location. Fantastic work everyone.
But, It’s not turned up yet!
I quote the great philosopher Roy Munson when I say,
"You would be punctilious in assuming that."
Merlot Brougham
Halcon wrote::
Hello Everyone.
Here follows the rambling thoughts
of
a Senior Citizen based 5,239 miles away in Derbyshire, England.
All the images shown in the book The Secret ( A Treasure Hunt ) are Gestaits.
Image one is a typical gestalt with an Anthropomorphic Landscape, which obviously accounts for the many Pareidolia moments encountered by all intrepid Treasure Seekers.
So when Apophenia sets in the mind becomes anarchic and turbid.
Sagacity is called for. Without lucidity, all images become fatuous and nugatory.
I
have read through most
of
the posts on this Forum, and had a few smiles and chuckles along the way. Anus Corn hole is head and shoulders in the lead for laugh out loud moments ( only Joshing! ) xx
My deepest respect to ALL the contributors on this site for their thoughts and proposals for the San Francisco Casque ( Cask ) burial location. Fantastic work everyone.
But, It’s not turned up yet!
I
quote the great philosopher Roy Munson when
I
say,
"You would be punctilious in assuming that."
Choice
Back to fedral gummint paid fo skool get me sum edumacation
Word of the day still a thing?
Choice
Back to fedral gummint paid fo skool get me sum edumacation
Word
of
the day still a thing?
Halcon
When first introduced to this quest, ( May 2018 ) and once we had a basic understanding of how to read and interpret the clues we looked at several verses but only One Image, which just shouts “San Francisco”.....Image One.
Our first solution and the only one that seems totally plausible, ( in our most humble opinion) centres around The Maritime Museum area. All the clues depicted in Image One and verse 7, seem to come together and make some sort of sense.
Then along comes Dorian and his wife and then BBI with the most graphic and eloquent explanation of their solves, which in the main follows our thoughts, but with a little more detail and panache. Well done you two/ three, excellent job!
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
So the other night Linda S of wiki suggested that we should take a closer look at Grace Cathedral and Huntington park area because her nephew saw Grace written by the dragon. I know Scrappy was looking at that area once. I think this is what she's referring to:
That "r" requires too much suspension of my disbelief
drunknerds
catherwood wrote::
Did I miss the full report on this find? Did you gather pieces? Plexiglass is probably too generic to compare to other plastic samples, but the pottery could be analyzed. Did you post any photos of these artifacts?
Hey sorry, I've definitely not been posting enough since I found it. Had a lot of business crop up.
Choice's immediate response to this was super accurate: There's plexi and ceramic everywhere. Immediately after finding some pieces, we contacted Burnstyle. Even over the phone we found some differences between my ceramic (which were actually two different types of clay) and that of the found casques. To be sure, I mailed them to burnstyle. Nope, not casques.
What I learned most was how a switch flips in people's brains from "I don't care" to "obsessed" because of things we didn't know happen all the time. I had no idea if you rake over ground in a public park, you can probably find lots of plexi and clay shards. Who would? And watching my friend stumble out to the senior center, only because he hadn't seen me in a year and we had had 3 IPAs each and he wanted to see what ol' crazy Drunk Nerds was up to... to "Whoa... you said these two substances would be here if the bulldozer destroyed a cask... and they're here! Whoa!"
It really opened my eyes as to the unique factors that make this hunt something people obsess about for 40 years.
Halcon
Just to add an extra morsel to The Maritime Park theory.
Sounds from above!
KFOG Radio 104.5 once operated from The Ghirardelli Clock Tower.
Also on the 4th Floor of Maritime Museum is a Radio Room.
Now for my Pareidolia moment!
The blue, bird like blob and cannon shape to the upper right of the image can be found amongst the Intaglio carvings at entrance to museum.
During the History of the Museum, it has been Baths, Casino, and served as a base for the US Airforce during WW2. ( Aces High?)
The Senior Centre also have offices located there. Is the Dragon/ Phoenix their logo?
Inside the entrance hall is this mural :-
https://imgur.com/a/SHv44eu?s=sms
Note the blue bubble blob on the left with yellow moon tailed fish beneath. Also note the crepuscular style rays which are depicted throughout most of these Hilaire Hiler
Murals. Now looking at pages 64 and 65 of The Book. ‘ The West Ghost ‘This shows a group in a Bath Tub ( including an old guy trying to make sense of modern technology, haha.) with a ‘genie?’ floating on a vaporous trail, very similar to the mural, including the moon slither shape and searchlight beams in the distance!
Giant Pole, Giant Step.
From the Maritime Museum take a Giant Step towards Black point?
A Giant Pole ( beam ) of light would emit from the Searchlight structure that also has the appearance of a single Giant Step.?
Image has a Blackened fore finger that points at block 4 on sleeve.
Black point, Pier 4.
The Images forehead has a similar shape to the small protuberance on which the Searchlight stands. The end of her nose is almost the same shape as the shelter top.
Could her very straight, bright nose be a beam ( Pole ) of light?
( turn image upside down )
Note the reflected areas of her cheeks, neck/chest and arm tops. And the shadow cast beneath the haloed pearl.
.....Halcon..
Choice
Halcon wrote::
Image has a Blackened fore finger that points at block 4 on sleeve.
Black point, Pier 4.
What do you mean by Pier 4? The small pier next to the Maritime cove?
bbi
Choice wrote::
What do you mean by Pier 4? The small pier next to the Maritime cove?
Pier 4
hxxp://reelsf.com/reelsf/2014/6/7/the-h ... y-alcatraz
Choice
So the small pier next to the cove.
Halcon
That would certainly suffice as an explanation for the blackened pointing fore finger. And the three other finger denoting Fort Masons Piers 1-2-3. Pier 4 was not only used to transport prisoners to Alcatraz but was also open to fishermen during the 1980’s. The Dragons head fits into the shape with its snout pointing to The Searchlight. Also look at the space between her forefinger and middle finger. You will find that pier 4 forms that same shape as the gap. The wall around the Searchlight also has the same shape as the pushed out gold line at the Dragons Snout.
.....Halcon...
Halcon
Thanks for your Fabulous input, yet again, bbi
Choice
I just hope your suggestion doesn't send a bunch of jack asses with their probes to that dangerous cliff area. Author specifically mentioned it won't be at any life-threatening location.
bbi
Choice wrote::
I just hope your suggestion doesn't send a bunch of jack asses with their probes to that dangerous cliff area. Author specifically mentioned it won't be at any life-threatening location.
That's absolutely a fair point Choice, and to confirm Durian's comment. The whole of this park is under GGNRA jurisdiction and is a complete no dig/probe zone and people caught will be punished for vandalism.
Halcon
“Oyez-Oyez-Oyez,!” Or in other words “ Hear ye-Hear ye Hear ye!..So listen up all you potential Jackass probers and diggers!.... Do Not probe and or Dig, Anywhere on GGNRA supervised areas, which include Historical Monuments situated at Fort Mason without the appropriate permissions and permits in place. The Searchlight looks to be in quite a perilous position very close to a steep edge. Do not be stupid enough to endanger yourself, and do not risk being locked up by the GGNRA.
DO NOT PROBE OR DIG THIS AREA!!!
Thanks for pointing this out Dorian. Very grateful.
......Halcon....
Choice
Attention survivors of dead or injured seekers: Contact Halcon for damage recovery!
Halcon
To Choice. “I am suggesting that as we go through life, we ‘accentuate the positive.’ I am asking that we look a little deeper for the good, that we still our voices of insult and sarcasm, that we more generously compliment and endorse virtue and effort.”
‘Gordon B. Hinckley’
To Durian. I have read most if not all, of your well laid out solutions to this hunt, and admire the effort involved. I fully concur with, and respect your findings and image matching within the Maritime Museum.
In my most humble opinion, between yourselves and bbi, you have tied down the main focal area for this quest. bbi’s symbol matchup and final burial site, IMO, seems more plausible than at the base of a Speaker or beside steps at Victorian Park. Only because of the Giant Pole and Step part of the verse.
Well done, IMO to you both.
The book also states at ‘c’ “ any public or private flower bed” will Not contain treasure. So where did Zinn / Abrams find a Casque? .......
In a Flower Planter on a public park!!!.Both Preiss and Palencar are a cunning and mischievous pair of plotters.
My wife and I are celebrating our Golden wedding anniversary in February 2019 and have planned a 6 week trip to the Golden State to celebrate. We also intend to book a three/four day stay in San Francisco to put a ‘face’ to the city that we have researched with fascination and respect for its history over the last few months.
.......Halcon....
Choice
Halcon, I was just pointing out your recklessness. I too had solutions that were in dangerous areas. I shared my solve with a few sane people privately and decided not to post them publicly. You go on with your long-winded ranting and babbling but it is your actions that puts this forum at risk.
By the way that location was suggested multiple times previously, even one recently with a nicely done Google Earth video.
Halcon
May I therefore ‘ Publicly ‘ apologise for putting any would be Jackass in danger.
This is not my solve, I was merely endorsing others.
Halcon
Having said that, here follows another long winded rant.
This solve was formulated long before i even knew about this forum.
But this is really ‘Out There’ and possibly does not stand up, but strangely it works..ish!
Verse 1 Fortress North.
Fortress north———————Alcatraz
Cold as glass———————-the surrounding sea or ( al-ca-traz)
Friendship south——————San Francisco
Take your task To the number 982..
Fog City Restaurant 1300 Battery Street, whose Phone Number is 982-2000
Although they were established in 1985, maybe they inherited the number from the previous owners of the site, ‘ Harbor Cafeteria ‘?
https://imgur.com/gallery/PdLVowy?s=sms
Through the wood No lion fears. Wooden Piers? Sea Lions thwarted efforts to remove them from the piers.
In the sky the water veers....Heavy sea mist/fog caught by wind surges.
In the centre of four alike..Pier 23 is in the Center of 2sets of 4 piers all with arched entrances.. they are 35..33..31..29...then ..23..19..15..9
Small of scale...Step Across...Perspective should not be lost.
Next door to Fog City Restaurant and Over the road from pier 23 we have The Levi’s Plaza.
Before Levi’s Plaza was built the area was known as ‘ The White Angel Jungle ‘ set up to help the needy.
Old Levi building address was 98 Battery Street. (98 two Levi’s ?) New Building was completed in 1981. But not opened to the public until April 1982. Ok.Ok! I know it’s a little on the tight side, but crafty BP could have disguised himself as a landscaper a year or so previous?
Owned by Jim Joseph who is the franchise owner of Los Angeles football club. Rocks holding ball? ??
The site was Frederick Griffing Wharf, his ship was buried there and discovered again when Levi building work began.
Site is situated a the base of Telegraph Hill.
Part of the site incorporates The Italian Swiss Colony Building with old coving/ facia/ mouldings that look very similar to the background wall to the rear of image.
Small of scale step across . Water feature on Levi Plaza Designed by Lawrence Halprin as “ The Sierra in the City”. On a smaller scale. Many stepping stones over streams etc. Or meaning Step Across the road from pier 23.
Perspective should not be lost ? Many Large Sierra like Rocks incorporated in feature ( look at the type of rock, looks like the rock background of image )
Small, split. All buildings were designed to be low and welcoming, so as not to overpower the visitors, and was intended as a relaxing place to be. Also paving has a lot of X’s and squares and other patterns that could resemble some symbols on dress front.
https://imgur.com/gallery/R5b7c4I?s=sms
Three Winged and slight.. Levi Building is made up of Three separate slight ( low ) Buildings.
What we take to be our strongest tower of delight—— quote from Herman Melville ( Romantic Poet and Author, Wrote Moby Dick ) goes on to say something like a falling leaf, a snow drop, a memory, just some little thing. Maybe the park would inspire or provoke a memory or thought in some visitors?
Also Coit Tower is a highly visible from the site.
Falls gently in December night—- possibly linked to same quote—- snow, mist, fog ?
Looking back from treasure ground. Turn around and look over the road towards the Piers.
There’s a spout!—-exclamation of sighting a Whale? There are many types of Whales found in the Bay.
A whistle sounds—- from a departing ship/ boat.
Could BP have put the Cask in a planter, before it was planted up,? as the site would have been very new and soft soil everywhere. Most certainly the area would have been of interest to many people at the time.
The ‘X’ May be in a planter that can only be accessed via steppingstones?
The square to the right of inverted h on images dress has an open slot, very similar to a couple of the water features.
Address on Battery Street.( Cannon Battery? ) hence a blue shaped cannon.
Same with bird shape, Sea Bird?
Three of her fingers representing 3 piers 33, 31, 29 and her forefinger pointing to pier 23 where the Levi Plaza is over the road!
Could the main thick curl of dragons tail surround the small water park in the centre?
Maybe that could account for the large and small blocks on the tail.
Could the blue areas behind dragon be rocks and cobble under water (stream)
“Success consists of going from failure to failure without the loss of enthusiasm”
Quote from Sir Winston Churchill.
......Halcon.....
gManTexas
Great stuff GG!
Choice
Hey GoldenGate, are you taking requests? I'm looking at the Galileo high area just behind Ghirardelli. Do you have a more closeup pic of that area besides the ones you posted from 80's. That would be cool.
https://tinyurl.com/ydhtbn3r
mariska
Great pictures GoldenGate !
This picture confused me though... Even though I don't necessarily have Gh for Ghirardelli ... in this picture their logo is double sided and doesn't read as a mirrored GH when viewed from behind. Until when was their logo double sided? Does anyone know?
https://ibb.co/cDTPjPW
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
... (there is a black and white photo in the second set I've included since it shows there were two Ghirardelli signs, back to back, so at some point from the back it also read left to right) ...
I think the picture is from the early 1900's. Most likely the south-side sign was discarded during the renovation in the 60's. Here's a clip from Wikipedia:
" San Franciscan William M. Roth and his mother, Lurline Matson Roth, bought the land in 1962 to prevent the square from being replaced with an apartment building. The Roths hired landscape architect Lawrence Halprin and the firm Wurster, Bernardi & Emmons to convert the square and its historic brick structures to an integrated restaurant and retail complex, the first major adaptive re-use project in the United States. It opened in 1964."
mariska
Choice wrote::
Oops, kind of read over that...
guess it was late and I didn't sleep for 3 days because this puzzle's on my mind...
just thought the picture didn't look pre 1929, but I guess it must be since the Aquatic park pier isn't there...
MrBackstop
I read somewhere that the sign originally faced South and was turned around to face North as it does today. Also, I have the two symbols at the top of her robe, the gold circle with the purple center as the Gallileo Logo and the gold square with what appears to be a small letter (g perhaps) as a reference to Ghirardelli Square.
Goonie68
MrBackstop wrote::
I read somewhere that the sign originally faced South and was turned around to face North as it does today. Also, I have the two symbols at the top of her robe, the gold circle with the purple center as the Gallileo Logo and the gold square with what appears to be a small letter (g perhaps) as a reference to Ghirardelli Square.
MrBackstop, you are spot on with the connection to the Gold circle with the purple color in the middle, Galileo School colors. My theory uses GA and Polk street as a way points and sets you up towards Ghirardelli and the Warf. There is 3 clues that tells us this in the image. 1. In the image The Gold circle with purple color and Square with dot next to each other. Circle/Purple = Galileo(school colors), Square/dot = Ghirardelli Square. The dot in the middle is telling us this is a place. The two clues are next to each other as they are in that location. 2. Galileo was the Father of Observational Astronomy, this explains the moons above the rocks (astronomy) the number 11 (moons) is referring to Polk street, the 11th President. The dome from the observatory sits on the corner of Bay and Polk street. 3. the image supports the dome from GA and is confirming as a way point.
alumina al2o3
Choice
If one interpret the dragon as Lombard st then it's nose is poking at the Russian hill (h-i-l-l is spelled out).
Also "Near high" school is the Russian hill park.
Russian hill park between Larkin stairs and Hyde, on the Bay st. side looks very close to the pattern Dragon's nose makes on the hill. Looks freshly redone.
Also the Galileo observatory:
Choice
• Lombard, twisty road made of blocks (bricks, originally cobblestone)
• Blue and purple bubbles surrounding the road are Hydrangea blooms (plants used for soil erosion prevention)
• Top of the twisty part of Lombard ends up at Hyde, Russian hill where dragon’s nose pokes at (h-i-l-l spelled out)
• That section of Lombard is one way street going from top to bottom. Bottom of her robe has “Do Not Enter” sign (2 half circles)
• Look closely to the backward G. Has a dragon’s head inside. Look closely to dragon’s head; it’s a lions head, hence Galileo Lions.
• Ga-lil-eo Ga (purple) lil (green Lambda Iota Lambda) eo (red)
Choice
Relevant flashback
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=galileo&start=2599
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=galileo&start=2602
Choice
Moons are way markers. The larger the moon, the closer you are to the destination. So the smallest moon, moon #1 is the starting point. I use the reverse verse 7 so the starting point is Giant pole.
List of identified way-marker moons:
1. Coit tower
2. Marconi memorial
3. Peter & Paul church
4. Joe DiMaggio playground
5. Columbus Ave.
6. Fisherman’s Wharf sign
7. Maritime Museum
8. ---
9. ---
10. Ghirardelli clock tower
11. Area outlined between ferry arch (pier 43) and Galileo observatory
Image is large so click on the picture to expand.
https://i.imgur.com/Z69zMqE.jpg
MrBackstop
Goonie68 wrote::
MrBackstop, you are spot on with the connection to the Gold circle with the purple color in the middle, Galileo School colors. My theory uses GA and Polk street as a way points and sets you up towards Ghirardelli and the Warf. There is 3 clues that tells us this in the image. 1. In the image The Gold circle with purple color and Square with dot next to each other. Circle/Purple = Galileo(school colors), Square/dot = Ghirardelli Square. The dot in the middle is telling us this is a place. The two clues are next to each other as they are in that location. 2. Galileo was the Father of Observational Astronomy, this explains the moons above the rocks (astronomy) the number 11 (moons) is referring to Polk street, the 11th President. The dome from the observatory sits on the corner of Bay and Polk street. 3. the image supports the dome from GA and is confirming as a way point.
Good info here Goonie. I see your part of the Image where you indicate that as the dome of the Observatory. Did you see Choice's post right after yours of the Observatory ? I believe this part of the Image is the Observatory while the art you posted is the view from behind the East Speaker Tower. Durian found this clue awhile back and pointed it out to me.....I never noticed it at the time.
The number 11 comes up several times in this puzzle. Durian also came up with the idea that the 11 moons are actually the 11 letters in Ghirardelli and that moons represent each letter in the sign which light up. I like the idea with Galileo as well. I also like to point out that Ghirardelli Square has white globe lamps as well as other lamps that look like moons when lit at night. So many of these clues have multiple meanings and can be used to get to the final spot.
Others have also mentioned the Apollo 11 landing and it's significance to SF.
As for President Polk, as you mentioned, he was our 11th President. My take on this is that Polk Street is "ace is high" in the line "Near ace is high". With my dig spot being below the East Speaker Tower by the Far East entrance of the East Bleachers, my dig spot is near ace is high (Polk Street).
"Sounds from the sky" refers to the Speaker Towers in the Aquatic Park.
dp12345
I think verse 7 actually belongs with image 9 in St. Louis. My solution is below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QYdcj7 ... sp=sharing
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
So what's that place? It looks like they used all the symbolism cliches! Dragon, globe, shield, phoenix.
Did
I
miss any?! Unicorn?
not sure what it is -
I
found it in one
of
the links you posted above.....the tiny/url one
I
think.
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
So what's that place? It looks like they used all the symbolism cliches! Dragon, globe, shield, phoenix.
Did I miss any?! Unicorn?
not sure what it is - I found it in one of the links you posted above.....the tiny/url one I think.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
not sure what it is - I found it in one of the links you posted above.....the tiny/url one I think.
Nope not one of my links. You either accidentally clicked something on the left side bar of the google map or you have redirector virus.
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
not sure what it is -
I
found it in one
of
the links you posted above.....the tiny/url one
I
think.
Nope not one
of
my links. You either accidentally clicked something on the left side bar
of
the google map or you have redirector virus.
MrBackstop
I finally found a photo that shows the area of my dig spot for SF. I wanted to post that graphic as well as another.
Karleen brought up the idea that perhaps there were other clues in the book itself. At first I thought, wait a minute, didn't he talk about no more clues would be in the book other than the Verses and Images? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't ...but as I looked at what Karleen was seeing in the book's illustrations I thought I'd give it a look.
I was going thru the pages and came to page 15,....and there it was, it hit me like a smack in the face, there was the Dragon on the front of the boat being rowed. As I looked at that artwork I saw the many clues that are in my solve. But what really got me were the "circles" on the boat. They are almost identical to the decorative circles on the wall at the entrance of the East Bleachers in Aquatic Park. And other than the "golden pearl" with its shadow, I cannot find any other circles like these in Image 1. I also like how this page refers to the Fair Folk and Russia since Aquatic Park is at the bottom of Russian Hill. Not only that but the boat planks of the boat appear to be the stairs of the East Bleachers. Here is the graphic:
Now put this together with the new photo I found and gives visual of my dig spot for Image 1.
I do appreciate learning about the 2009 renovation to the park from Malted Falcon. He helped me look at my area in even more detail and I was able to come up with this spot for the casque. I see the "circular decorative" entrance marks as being the final locator. These circles are like the ones on the boat artwork and because they are a bas relief, they cast a shadow like the golden pearl in Image 1.
MrBackstop
I
finally found a photo that shows the area
of
my dig spot for SF.
I
wanted to post that graphic as well as another.
Karleen brought up the idea that perhaps there were other clues in the book itself. At first
I
thought, wait a minute, didn't he talk about no more clues would be in the book other than the Verses and Images? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't ...but as
I
looked at what Karleen was seeing in the book's illustrations
I
thought
I
'd give it a look.
I
was going thru the pages and came to page 15,....and there it was, it hit me like a smack in the face, there was the Dragon on the front
of
the boat being rowed. As
I
looked at that artwork
I
saw the many clues that are in my solve. But what really got me were the "circles" on the boat. They are almost identical to the decorative circles on the wall at the entrance
of
the East Bleachers in Aquatic Park. And other than the "golden pearl" with its shadow,
I
cannot find any other circles like these in Image 1.
I
also like how this page refers to the Fair Folk and Russia since Aquatic Park is at the bottom
of
Russian Hill. Not only that but the boat planks
of
the boat appear to be the stairs
of
the East Bleachers. Here is the graphic:
Now put this together with the new photo
I
found and gives visual
of
my dig spot for Image 1.
I
do appreciate learning about the 2009 renovation to the park from Malted Falcon. He helped me look at my area in even more detail and
I
was able to come up with this spot for the casque.
I
see the "circular decorative" entrance marks as being the final locator. These circles are like the ones on the boat artwork and because they are a bas relief, they cast a shadow like the golden pearl in Image 1.
Choice
Just for fun!
“
I
Dream
of
Jeannie” connection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1MXF-svtQ
Note the position
of
her arms as if she’s casting a spell like the Jeannie.
Apollo connection?
From page 16
of
The Secret:
“Now, in the eternal whirlwinds above Persia's
Mountains
of
Ka.f, appeared a caravan
of
magicwrought
carpets, and upon them rode the banished
elder spirits
of
Araby: monstrous Deevs, desert-born
giants; the Peri, bright and beautiful as starlight; and
the wish-granting Djinn, formed
of
smokeless fire, at
last free from Man's lamps and bottles.”
[ADDED:] Does the table turned upside down look kinda like the Jeannie lamp with a handle?
Choice
Just for fun!
“I Dream of Jeannie” connection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1MXF-svtQ
Note the position of her arms as if she’s casting a spell like the Jeannie.
Apollo connection?
From page 16 of The Secret:
“Now, in the eternal whirlwinds above Persia's
Mountains of Ka.f, appeared a caravan of magicwrought
carpets, and upon them rode the banished
elder spirits of Araby: monstrous Deevs, desert-born
giants; the Peri, bright and beautiful as starlight; and
the wish-granting Djinn, formed of smokeless fire, at
last free from Man's lamps and bottles.”
[ADDED:] Does the table turned upside down look kinda like the Jeannie lamp with a handle?
Halcon
I think this is a Must Have Document for anyone with The Aquatic Park Area as their cask burial site.
cultural_ldscape_rpt_opimized.pdf
If this link does not work, it can be found by searching... Cultural Landscape Report. Aquatic Park National Park Service.
Hope it helps, as it answers a lot of ‘Date’ issues. And includes some fabulous photos.
Halcon
I
think this is a Must Have Document for anyone with The Aquatic Park Area as their cask burial site.
cultural_ldscape_rpt_opimized.pdf
If this link does not work, it can be found by searching... Cultural Landscape Report. Aquatic Park National Park Service.
Hope it helps, as it answers a lot
of
‘Date’ issues. And includes some fabulous photos.
Choice
Thanks for the great pdf Halcon.
An area
of
interest is the Bocce ball courts that may explain the 3 round balls.
Also there's a 1967 Commemorative fountain nearby, thumbnail image on page 57, image 9. It's shape is similar to the shadow under pearl.
Choice
Thanks for the great pdf Halcon.
An area of interest is the Bocce ball courts that may explain the 3 round balls.
Also there's a 1967 Commemorative fountain nearby, thumbnail image on page 57, image 9. It's shape is similar to the shadow under pearl.
slowrisingwhitebread
The Secret, San Francisco Solution by slowrisingwhitebread
Painting 1, Verse 7
Here is my solution to the San Francisco puzzle. Please go through the proper channels if you choose to dig at this spot.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KJGKIiH97ksPLJIXXsW3V1OEP6pad4f_bjcy4-oqvzE/edit?usp=sharing
bbi
Choice wrote::
Thanks for the great pdf Halcon.
An area of interest is the Bocce ball courts that may explain the 3 round balls.
Also there's a 1967 Commemorative fountain nearby, thumbnail image on page 57, image 9. It's shape is similar to the shadow under pearl.
Hi Choice,
As with the tombstone match the other day, I'd like to also back up the Bocce Court icon match. This time I'm attaching my written solve (rather than the google earth movie ). In that you'll see I have also used the bocce court as a way marker along with another possibility for the 3 circles. There are a few things in the PDF I wanted to clean up such as the roman numeral 6 upside down as I believe that is actually illustrating the clock tower at Ghirardelli and not what I state in the PDF. Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area I'm at so thought I'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
bbi
Choice wrote::
Thanks for the great pdf Halcon.
An area
of
interest is the Bocce ball courts that may explain the 3 round balls.
Also there's a 1967 Commemorative fountain nearby, thumbnail image on page 57, image 9. It's shape is similar to the shadow under pearl.
Hi Choice,
As with the tombstone match the other day,
I
'd like to also back up the Bocce Court icon match. This time
I
'm attaching my written solve (rather than the google earth movie ). In that you'll see
I
have also used the bocce court as a way marker along with another possibility for the 3 circles. There are a few things in the PDF
I
wanted to clean up such as the roman numeral 6 upside down as
I
believe that is actually illustrating the clock tower at Ghirardelli and not what
I
state in the PDF. Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area
I
'm at so thought
I
'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
Very nice find MrBackstop!!!
Let me add to it from my solve's perspective: The boat (emigrating to the New World) could well represent the San Carlos—first ship to enter into San Francisco Bay—memorialized by the plaque on the 'San Carlos' stone a giant step from the East speaker tower. (BTW, you've been referring to it incorrectly as the San Marcos stone, probably thinking
of
St. Augustine. Too many puzzles!
Regardless
of
bleacher wall or stone/plaque, IMO that casque is SOOOOOOO in Aquatic Park.
Thanks Durian,
I
couldn't agree more. And yeah,
I
keep saying Marcos all the damn time....San Carlos, San Carlos, San Carlos.....got it.
I
've been working on Page 199 in the book now. It is all about Houston and Hermann park. Very cool artwork clues all over that page as well.
MrBackstop
Durian wrote::
Very nice find MrBackstop!!!
Let me add to it from my solve's perspective: The boat (emigrating to the New World) could well represent the San Carlos—first ship to enter into San Francisco Bay—memorialized by the plaque on the 'San Carlos' stone a giant step from the East speaker tower. (BTW, you've been referring to it incorrectly as the San Marcos stone, probably thinking of St. Augustine. Too many puzzles!
Regardless of bleacher wall or stone/plaque, IMO that casque is SOOOOOOO in Aquatic Park.
Thanks Durian, I couldn't agree more. And yeah, I keep saying Marcos all the damn time....San Carlos, San Carlos, San Carlos.....got it.
I've been working on Page 199 in the book now. It is all about Houston and Hermann park. Very cool artwork clues all over that page as well.
Choice
bbi wrote::
... Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area
I
'm at so thought
I
'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
I
still have issues with the starting and ending
of
the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall
of
China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape
of
the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (
of
success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom
of
the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve
i
.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon, pier 43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Choice
bbi wrote::
... Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area I'm at so thought I'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
I still have issues with the starting and ending of the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall of China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape of the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (of success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom of the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve i.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon, pier 43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Choice
bbi wrote::
... Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area I'm at so thought I'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
I still have issues with the starting and ending of the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall of China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape of the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (of success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom of the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve i.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon,
pier
43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Mister EZ
bbi wrote::
Hi Choice,
As with the tombstone match the other day, I'd like to also back up the Bocce Court icon match. This time I'm attaching my written solve (rather than the google earth movie ). In that you'll see I have also used the bocce court as a way marker along with another possibility for the 3 circles. There are a few things in the PDF I wanted to clean up such as the roman numeral 6 upside down as I believe that is actually illustrating the clock tower at Ghirardelli and not what I state in the PDF. Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area I'm at so thought I'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
bbi...without commenting on the content, I'd like to say that I like the design of that pdf....from the headlines to the alternating book layout to the word wrap. Looks like you made that in InDesign? Maybe Publisher? Good job, either way...
Mister EZ
bbi wrote::
Hi Choice,
As with the tombstone match the other day,
I
'd like to also back up the Bocce Court icon match. This time
I
'm attaching my written solve (rather than the google earth movie ). In that you'll see
I
have also used the bocce court as a way marker along with another possibility for the 3 circles. There are a few things in the PDF
I
wanted to clean up such as the roman numeral 6 upside down as
I
believe that is actually illustrating the clock tower at Ghirardelli and not what
I
state in the PDF. Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area
I
'm at so thought
I
'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
bbi...without commenting on the content,
I
'd like to say that
I
like the design
of
that pdf....from the headlines to the alternating book layout to the word wrap. Looks like you made that in InDesign? Maybe Publisher? Good job, either way...
bbi
Choice wrote::
I still have issues with the starting and ending of the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall of China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape of the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (of success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom of the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve i.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon,
pier
43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Agreed, I originally came up with most of this particular solve before the Japanese translations. So yes, I agree about the smells sweet part and intend to update that. When I first heard the verse, the first thought I had was the "Sweet smell of freedom" i.e. a prisoner being let out of Alcatraz (as a few others have already mentioned). As for the giant step and the cliff
it's not ideal I know, but I've been to the Aquatic Park quite a few times now and nothing I saw in the physical sense fit "Giant" like features. I know the bleachers are large steps etc., but that area is sooo busy day and night even back in the 80's as well as being extremely exposed, I felt BP may have used the park to lead people through it, to the black point area or the pocket park where certain areas a less exposed. My initial area of interest was at the pocket park (tombstone area) and the back of the tunnel (the terraced gardens) which is currently an area that is out of bounds and being renovated. But there does look to be lot of interesting areas to look at such as paths ways/walls/benches. Either way, its all GGNRA land and thats a no no for any kind of probe/dig but I guess there's no offense in trying to come up with a theory.
I do like your idea on the stonewall and sweet smell part of the verse being the destination and will give that some further thought. I'm going to be updating that pdf soon purely based on the feedback I've received on this forum. So I would like to thank yourself and others who have provided me with the feedback.
Cheers,
bbi
Choice wrote::
I still have issues with the starting and ending of the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall of China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape of the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (of success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom of the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve i.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon, pier 43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Agreed, I originally came up with most of this particular solve before the Japanese translations. So yes, I agree about the smells sweet part and intend to update that. When I first heard the verse, the first thought I had was the "Sweet smell of freedom" i.e. a prisoner being let out of Alcatraz (as a few others have already mentioned). As for the giant step and the cliff
it's not ideal I know, but I've been to the Aquatic Park quite a few times now and nothing I saw in the physical sense fit "Giant" like features. I know the bleachers are large steps etc., but that area is sooo busy day and night even back in the 80's as well as being extremely exposed, I felt BP may have used the park to lead people through it, to the black point area or the pocket park where certain areas a less exposed. My initial area of interest was at the pocket park (tombstone area) and the back of the tunnel (the terraced gardens) which is currently an area that is out of bounds and being renovated. But there does look to be lot of interesting areas to look at such as paths ways/walls/benches. Either way, its all GGNRA land and thats a no no for any kind of probe/dig but I guess there's no offense in trying to come up with a theory.
I do like your idea on the stonewall and sweet smell part of the verse being the destination and will give that some further thought. I'm going to be updating that pdf soon purely based on the feedback I've received on this forum. So I would like to thank yourself and others who have provided me with the feedback.
Cheers,
bbi
Choice wrote::
I
still have issues with the starting and ending
of
the verse.
If your starting point is the "stonewall's door" then your sweet smell solution is a literal smell when the Japanese translation specifically mentioned it's a metaphor.
Looking at the painting and the Chinese connection one can safely assume the stonewall (dragon in the painting) is reference to the great wall
of
China and it's door wide open is dragon's mouth that is in the shape
of
the cove.
That being said, the stonewall and sweet smell (
of
success) is the destination and NOT the starting point.
You have a problem interpreting Giant pole and step because if you take a giant step you're at the bottom
of
the cliff!
Giant pole and step is the starting point.
This is also confirmed by the waymarkers that are not included in your solve
i
.e. Coit tower under the smallest moon, pier 43, baseball (DiMaggio) and so on.
Agreed,
I
originally came up with most
of
this particular solve before the Japanese translations. So yes,
I
agree about the smells sweet part and intend to update that. When
I
first heard the verse, the first thought
I
had was the "Sweet smell
of
freedom"
i
.e. a prisoner being let out
of
Alcatraz (as a few others have already mentioned). As for the giant step and the cliff
it's not ideal
I
know, but
I
've been to the Aquatic Park quite a few times now and nothing
I
saw in the physical sense fit "Giant" like features.
I
know the bleachers are large steps etc., but that area is sooo busy day and night even back in the 80's as well as being extremely exposed,
I
felt BP may have used the park to lead people through it, to the black point area or the pocket park where certain areas a less exposed. My initial area
of
interest was at the pocket park (tombstone area) and the back
of
the tunnel (the terraced gardens) which is currently an area that is out
of
bounds and being renovated. But there does look to be lot
of
interesting areas to look at such as paths ways/walls/benches. Either way, its all GGNRA land and thats a no no for any kind
of
probe/dig but
I
guess there's no offense in trying to come up with a theory.
I
do like your idea on the stonewall and sweet smell part
of
the verse being the destination and will give that some further thought.
I
'm going to be updating that pdf soon purely based on the feedback
I
've received on this forum. So
I
would like to thank yourself and others who have provided me with the feedback.
Cheers,
bbi
Mister EZ wrote::
bbi...without commenting on the content, I'd like to say that I like the design of that pdf....from the headlines to the alternating book layout to the word wrap. Looks like you made that in InDesign? Maybe Publisher? Good job, either way...
Thanks EZ. Yes, it was done in InDesign.
bbi
Mister EZ wrote::
bbi...without commenting on the content,
I
'd like to say that
I
like the design
of
that pdf....from the headlines to the alternating book layout to the word wrap. Looks like you made that in InDesign? Maybe Publisher? Good job, either way...
Thanks EZ. Yes, it was done in InDesign.
Choice
Does anyone know what or where this thing is?
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Does anyone know what or where this thing is?
I think it's the thing on this monument -
https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/3120 ... .jpg?w=630
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Does anyone know what or where this thing is?
I
think it's the thing on this monument -
https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/3120 ... .jpg?w=630
XeroDM
bbi wrote::
Hi Choice,
As with the tombstone match the other day, I'd like to also back up the Bocce Court icon match. This time I'm attaching my written solve (rather than the google earth movie ). In that you'll see I have also used the bocce court as a way marker along with another possibility for the 3 circles. There are a few things in the PDF I wanted to clean up such as the roman numeral 6 upside down as I believe that is actually illustrating the clock tower at Ghirardelli and not what I state in the PDF. Its still a work in progress but it sounds like your investigating the general area I'm at so thought I'd share.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmJNDN ... sp=sharing
As a note (it doesn't change your solution), Martin Luther King Drv in Golden Gate Park was not called this in 1980. After the casque was buried it was renamed. It was previously South Drive. This has happened to a lot of Streets in GGP, including Nancy Pelosi Drv (frm East Middle Drv).
X
MrBackstop
bbi wrote::
Thanks EZ. Yes, it was done in InDesign.
bbi
You know I like much of what you have come up with here. I really like the tombstone clue you figured out....totally stumped me.
Let me throw these 3 things out there at you.
1. The 3 balls
I've seen these as not 3 circles, but 4. Your graphic close up shows the propeller at the start of Jefferson Street. Check out the bottom part of the easily seen 3 balls and you can see the edge of the 4th part of the propeller on the bottom.
2. The square with the "c" and the purple circle
I like your idea of the purple scout logo but I also like this as a reference to the
Galileo
School logo...purple lion circle.
The "c" in the square refers to "chocolate", as in the iconic chocolate squares made at Ghirardelli.
3. The upside down VI and 6 O'clock on the turntable clock
This is a direction indicator to the casque from the Ghirardelli Clock Tower. If you start at the VI on the tower and move North in the direction of the "big hand" on the turntable clock, you go into Aquatic Park and where the XII would be on the other side of the East Speaker Tower. That is my dig spot as I've shown under the decorative circles on the left hand side of the Far East entrance into the bleachers.
As I said, I agree with a whole lot of the really nice work you've done in your presentation. Well done.
MrBackstop
bbi wrote::
Thanks EZ. Yes, it was done in InDesign.
bbi
You know I like much of what you have come up with here. I really like the tombstone clue you figured out....totally stumped me.
Let me throw these 3 things out there at you.
1. The 3 balls
I've seen these as not 3 circles, but 4. Your graphic close up shows the propeller at the start of Jefferson Street. Check out the bottom part of the easily seen 3 balls and you can see the edge of the 4th part of the propeller on the bottom.
2. The square with the "c" and the purple circle
I like your idea of the purple scout logo but I also like this as a reference to the Galileo School logo...purple lion circle.
The "c" in the square refers to "chocolate", as in the iconic chocolate squares made at Ghirardelli.
3. The upside down VI and 6 O'clock on the turntable clock
This is a direction indicator to the casque from the Ghirardelli Clock Tower. If you start at the VI on the tower and move North in the direction of the "big hand" on the turntable clock, you go into Aquatic Park and where the XII would be on the other side of the East Speaker Tower. That is my dig spot as I've shown under the decorative circles on the left hand side of the Far East entrance into the bleachers.
As I said, I agree with a whole lot of the really nice work you've done in your presentation. Well done.
Choice
I don't think it could be in a high traffic tourist packed area. I remember it much more crowded than the picture in the 80's. Always full of Japanese tourists. Those days are a bit "foggy" but weren't the bucket drummers there in the 80's all day long pounding on 5 gallon buckets sitting on the steps or was it later?
Goonie68
3 Balls?
sedan 0 60 times
Choice
Nice balls Goonie!
Is Alcatraz no dig zone? How about Angel Isl.?
Choice
The symbols across the robe are connected. So "balls" are most likely related to the Adobe logo looking symbol or old fashion table top phone.
If you combine the two symbols you get something that looks like a skeleton key. The whole image is in a keyhole shape.
Maybe is a clue to look closer to that clock wind hole next to the minute hand.
Choice
It was the early 80's right after the hostage crisis with the whole terrorism scare program at full bloom.
The symbols across the robe are connected. So "balls" are most likely related to the Adobe logo looking symbol or old fashion table top phone.
If you combine the two symbols you get something that looks like a skeleton key or clock wind key. The whole image is in a keyhole shape.
Maybe it's a clue to look closer to that clock wind hole next to the minute hand.
Table clocks are winded in the back where grandfather style clocks have the wind hole on the face.
The image design shape is in form of a grandfather clock.
Back to the
counter
clockwise
running
clock!
Choice
It was the early 80's right after the hostage crisis with the whole terrorism scare program at full bloom.
The symbols across the robe are connected. So "balls" are most likely related to the Adobe logo looking symbol or old fashion table top phone.
If you combine the two symbols you get something that looks like a skeleton key or clock wind key. The whole image is in a keyhole shape.
Maybe it's a clue to look closer to that clock wind hole next to the minute hand.
Table clocks are winded in the back where grandfather style clocks have the wind hole on the face.
The image design shape is in form of a grandfather clock.
Back to the counter clockwise running clock!
Choice
Dig spot (hole)?
[ADDED:] Also imagine the rose and two thorns as a key going into the spiral spring to windup the clock.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Nice balls Goonie!
Is Alcatraz no dig zone? How about Angel Isl.?
That's not Alcatraz, it's at the Lombard / Presidio gate,
Choice
Alcatraz Social Hall/Officer's club location:
For a while now I've been obsessed with the blue halo around the pearl being a hexagon shaped and not round. If the shadow of the pearl represents the giant pole then the blue hexagon could be the water tower in Alcatraz. The base of the tower is hexagon. A giant step (length of the tower) away is the ruins of the officer's club. Since the verse reads "to the place the casque is KEPT", it implies it's inside the ruins. 3 "balls" being the key. Rose terrace present. Structure's facade resembles the cell house in the image.
Similar to NYC Chrysler building eagle. Alcatraz has root in arabic meaning sea eagle.
[ADDED:] If the lady is a genie and is about to grant a wish as her arms are crossed and ready to do so, she may sound the spell “ALAKAZAM!” that sounds similar to Alcatraz.
MrBackstop
Choice wrote::
I don't think it could be in a high traffic tourist packed area. I remember it much more crowded than the picture in the 80's. Always full of Japanese tourists. Those days are a bit "foggy" but weren't the bucket drummers there in the 80's all day long pounding on 5 gallon buckets sitting on the steps or was it later?
I'm kind of with you on this Choice. When I was in Aquatic Park 12 years ago I was amazed at how empty it was the whole week. My family stayed in the Argonaut right next to the Park. We were over there everyday at one time of the day or another and it was always sparse. That's what I like about my dig spot as well, it is in area by the wall, behind the tree and speaker tower. Dusk or even early morning would have been a great time of day for BP to bury the casque.
Choice
The word "kept" in the verse implies holding like a prison. So Angel and Alcatraz comes to mind.
I read the proposals on Angel island a few month ago and may deserve more attention.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=angel&start=194
Halcon
Whilst on the subject of clocks.
Check these out! First one by Shreve and Company that used to stand on Geary Street??. Note the time, very nearly 6.00 o’clock, as some have commented about the image’s timepiece...... I just thought it was a nice photo!!
Second is from a book showing the Ghirardelli Clock Tower, the text reinforces ‘Sounds from above’. KFOG Radio
https://imgur.com/gallery/QmuVOWq
Choice
Halcon wrote::
Whilst on the subject of clocks. ...
You had me at "Whilst"!
The officer's club is on the north east side of the island. So the image of the Alcatraz in the image 1 is from the perspective of Angel island.
Maybe the club is in the lesser visited part of the island?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=angel&start=194
MrBackstop
Halcon wrote::
Whilst on the subject of clocks.
Check these out! First one by Shreve and Company that used to stand on Geary Street??. Note the time, very nearly 6.00 o’clock, as some have commented about the image’s timepiece...... I just thought it was a nice photo!!
Second is from a book showing the Ghirardelli Clock Tower, the text reinforces ‘Sounds from above’. KFOG Radio
https://imgur.com/gallery/QmuVOWq
Halcon
This is what I see the askew 6:00 as:
As an artist myself, it always struck me as odd that the 6:00 time was slightly off of true North.
bbi
Choice wrote::
You had me at "Whilst"!
This! is totally disrespectful. People are providing information/researching for hours and just trying to add to this already resourceful forum (I'm sure some people may even be hesitant to add their ideas to this place just because they see the kind of nasty comments others reply with). To have this lack of respect for another persons thoughts/enthusiasm or ideas to me shows a complete lack of understanding and how to alienate someone from further adding to this forum.
Choice
bbi wrote::
This! is totally disrespectful. People are providing information/researching for hours and just trying to add to this already resourceful forum (I'm sure some people may even be hesitant to add their ideas to this place just because they see the kind of nasty comments others reply with). To have this lack of respect for another persons thoughts/enthusiasm or ideas to me shows a complete lack of understanding and how to alienate someone from further adding to this forum.
"You had me at" means I totally agree... Must be the opposite day.
Choice
JamesV posted a useful resource for historical maps.
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/
One observation pertaining Image 1: On the bottom of the maps you have the choice of displaying Lat/Long in degrees/min/sec. (DMS) or Decimal Degrees (DD).
If the two "half circles" represent mirrored D's then this changes the coordinates somewhat.
Choice
MrBackstop wrote::
As an artist myself, it always struck me as odd that the 6:00 time was slightly off of true North.
Alternate way of looking at the table:
• Red rose represents memorial
• Rose and clock combo represent anniversary
• 5:59 on clock?
May 1959 anniversary of ...
gManTexas
This forum used to be a place to discuss ideas and have people critique different
well
formed thoughts that were connected to actual parts of the puzzle. Honestly, I am not seeing much of that on the Image 1 thread. Posting random pictures of random things, especially without tying back to anything in the puzzle is pointless. Also, if you have a theory and you have posted about several or 50 times, you've made your point. If no one else agrees and you aren't able, willing or capable of going to dig, then that's it. You've said your piece. Move on.
Maybe for those who want to continue to discuss ideas until you've beat it to death, then take it to PMs or via email with each other. It really does nothing to move the puzzle forward by repeating the same thing over and over.
The goal is not to talk this to death, the goal is to get boots on the ground and dig up a casque.
Choice
Since digging is not allowed talking about it is all we got. But I do agree that there's too much emphasis on drawings.
That being said!, there's an urn shaped shadow under the pearl.
Contribution!
Choice
Durian wrote::
So Choice, I've been thinking about what you are referring to as a blue hexagon around the pearl. Not sure what it means, but interestingly it seems to cast an angular shadow under the pearl. More interestingly, the angles forming this shadow seem to be repeated pretty much exactly in both top petals of the rose.
To me the rose looks like dragon's claws grabbing and holding something. Especially the top of the rose looks like a chicken foot. This may be a nod to Angel island's immigration holding facility during the Chinese exclusion act enforcement.
gManTexas
Let's all remember that there was no image manipulation software in 1982. Also, you went to the library for research, grabbed some friends and went out and looked around and then dug holes.
Choice
It's hard to outline what I'm talking about with a mouse. So it's easier to outline digitally.
It's visible to naked eye or enhanced with a magnifying glass.
BTW Welcome back to the thread. We missed you!
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Since digging is not allowed talking about it is all we got. But I do agree that there's too much emphasis on drawings.
That being said!, there's an urn shaped shadow under the pearl.
Contribution!
https://www.wescover.com/p/public-sculp ... kfgzsPMNWz
Choice
MERLIN wrote::
https://www.wescover.com/p/public-sculp ... kfgzsPMNWz
Very nice Merlin. The only thing missing is a dig spot since it's all concrete and flower planters!
Choice
So the shadow kinda looks like The Fountain.
What if the pearl on top is the pointer to the location in the sculpture.
Immediately below looking from the front is the Huntington park.
View from 3 sides:
Click on the images to expand
https://i.imgur.com/Mrr2kIj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/S1IwUqe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Q7l15YO.jpg
Choice
So the shadow kinda looks like The
Fountain
.
What if the pearl on top is the pointer to the location in the sculpture.
Immediately below looking from the front is the Huntington park.
View from 3 sides:
Click on the images to expand
https://i.imgur.com/Mrr2kIj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/S1IwUqe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Q7l15YO.jpg
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
So the shadow kinda looks like The
Fountain
.
What if the pearl on top is the pointer to the location in the sculpture.
Immediately below looking from the front is the Huntington park.
So you are saying this puzzle works totally differently from Chicago and Cleveland.
in which the gem in the image bears no discernable relation to the found casque locations.
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
So the shadow kinda looks like The Fountain.
What if the pearl on top is the pointer to the location in the sculpture.
Immediately below looking from the front is the Huntington park.
So you are saying this puzzle works totally differently from Chicago and Cleveland.
in which the gem in the image bears no discernable relation to the found casque locations.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
So you are saying this puzzle works totally differently from Chicago and Cleveland.
in which the gem in the image bears no discernable relation to the found casque locations.
Point well taken. However there are puzzles that have clues in form of letters and numbers hidden in the jewel facets. It's not unreasonable to suggest that there may be clues around it since a pearl is smooth and more difficult to hide clues on it. It may point to a general location and not the dig spot.
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
Point well taken. However there are puzzles that have clues in form of letters and numbers hidden in the jewel facets. It's not unreasonable to suggest that there may be clues around it since a pearl is smooth and more difficult to hide clues on it. It may point to a general location and not the dig spot.
Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I just don't see how you get from anywhere referenced in the image, to that
fountain
on stockton, while still on track to get to a dig site
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
Point well taken. However there are puzzles that have clues in form of letters and numbers hidden in the jewel facets. It's not unreasonable to suggest that there may be clues around it since a pearl is smooth and more difficult to hide clues on it. It may point to a general location and not the dig spot.
Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I just don't see how you get from anywhere referenced in the image, to that fountain on stockton, while still on track to get to a dig site
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I just don't see how you get from anywhere referenced in the image, to that fountain on stockton, while still on track to get to a dig site
Well, most touristy route would be from Dragon's Gate to Stockton south to Union square, west to Powell, either take the Powell cable car at Market turn-around or at Post-Powell. Hop on California cable car to Huntington park.
There are many clues to Huntington i.e. 1000 Mason and 2 triangles and circles, Grace/Huntington (G-H) or backward Huntington Hotel sign.
https://tinyurl.com/y9j3pak5
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7909793 ... a=!3m1!1e3
Also the location of the two half circles is pointed out by the symbols next to the backward h (hexagon, square). Landmark #64, 1000 California.
Word Grace may be spelled out by the dragon.
Cathedral references all over the place.
Flashback:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=huntington&start=2765
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
... Have you read the book? Like cover to cover? Much of it was themed to be a tongue and cheek take on society and politics in the 80s (hence hiring Lampoon heavyweights Mann and Kelley)...
hxxp://kspot.org/trove/national_lampoon_dec1982.pdf
courtesy forest_blight
gManTexas
At the time of the Secret, Ghirardelli chocolate was owned by the parent company of Rice-A-Roni from 1963 to 1986. As you remember, the Rice-A-Roni ads were huge in that time period, so maybe the cable car outline in the Image would have just made us think about Rice-A-Roni and dig a little into the connections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghirardel ... te_Company
Rviewer1
I’m looking to buy the 1981 first edition. If anyone knows where to get one, I would appreciate a heads up. My price range is $300 or lower.
Thanks guys.
prospector
Rviewer1 wrote::
I’m looking to buy the 1981 first edition. If anyone knows where to get one, I would appreciate a heads up. My price range is $300 or lower.
Thanks guys.
I hope you find one at that price. I haven't seen any lately. I must say the paperback book is horrible. The images in it have little detail. I can't believe they can sell such a crappy book for $30.00. I still bought it. I don't think many copies of the first hardback edition were printed. Maybe someone else on this forum knows. I think I heard it was around 2,500 copies. And I don't know it Byron Preiss did a book tour. That would be interesting to find out. If the book was released in the East and not many sent West then that may be another issue. The search for the book may be as difficult as looking for the treasure. Good luck in your search.
Choice
One sold for $25 a couple of month ago on eBay. I was late by a couple of mins.
https://tinyurl.com/y8mpfeb2
prospector
That is just too sad. I haven't seen any that cheap. The last one I saw on eBay was in horrible condition.
Choice
These vine leaves look familiar:
https://tinyurl.com/y8ko7gsq
"V" branch:
https://tinyurl.com/y8dv2rsk
Nice View:
https://tinyurl.com/yawxv29d
Choice
It seems like Mark has lost control of this forum. 11 of 20 front page threads are porn now. Are we under threat of getting hacked or infected?
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
It seems like Mark has lost control of this forum. 11 of 20 front page threads are porn now. Are we under threat of getting hacked or infected?
You are on the internet, you are always under threat of being hacked or infected.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
You are on the internet, you are always under threat of being hacked or infected.
Thanks MF, you are the bottomless well of conventional wisdom.
burnstyle
Give him time to remove them, he always does.
catherwood
Choice wrote::
It seems like Mark has lost control of this forum. ...Are we under threat of getting hacked or infected?
The usual precautions apply:
Do NOT click on any link from these people, in their posts and in their profiles.
Avoid even loading their posts, if you are truly worried. It's unlikely, but still possible that they could inject code into an image and have used BBCode to display it.
Beyond that, the forum should be safe for us to load each index of topics. A clever hacker might be able to embed something in a subject line, but these bots are just out to flood the system with plain garbage. The fact that this round is so full of obvious porn makes it even easier for us to avoid.
skyranger56
Hello Everyone,
Yes, first post. I'm a rookie that learned about this on TV from an October episode of EU. Now, I've spent the better part of three months going through all of your' comments about Im-1 and V-7 (SF), determined to find the casque quickly!
Arrogance is the Primary Tool for a Fool...
For now, I humbly ask you all, to answer the following questions:
1) Was Image 1 the first painting done by JJP for Byron?
2) Was this the first casque buried?
3) How long was Byron at Stanford? Dates? Was he "courting" Sandi during this time?
4) How long was Sandi in SF before they got married in 1986? Dates? Why was She there? What for? Where did She stay-or hang out?
5) Was Byron, or his Father Edmund, a
Free Mason
?
6) Were any of Byron's, or Sandi's family in the
US Military
?
7) Do you believe that Sandi had any input into the NY or SF puzzles? They may have known these two cities more
intimately
than any of the others (because; they met in NY and fell in Love in SF)?
Lastly: Now that the Im-1 and V-7 forums have "shot-down" 5 of my first "knee-jerk" solutions... Does this make me an "ACE"? Or, do I have to have dug holes to become one...?
Thanks to All! I believe it's still there! Let's find it.
prospector
skyranger56 wrote::
Hello Everyone,
Yes, first post. I'm a rookie that learned about this on TV from an October episode of EU. Now, I've spent the better part of three months going through all of your' comments about Im-1 and V-7 (SF), determined to find the casque quickly!
Arrogance is the Primary Tool for a Fool...
For now, I humbly ask you all, to answer the following questions:
1) Was Image 1 the first painting done by JJP for Byron?
2) Was this the first casque buried?
3) How long was Byron at Stanford? Dates? Was he "courting" Sandi during this time?
4) How long was Sandi in SF before they got married in 1986? Dates? Why was She there? What for? Where did She stay-or hang out?
5) Was Byron, or his Father Edmund, a
Free Mason
?
6) Were any of Byron's, or Sandi's family in the
US Military
?
7) Do you believe that Sandi had any input into the NY or SF puzzles? They may have known these two cities more
intimately
than any of the others (because; they met in NY and fell in Love in SF)?
Hello skyranger56,
I would love to know the answer to some of the questions you posted. I had to look at it twice because I thought I had asked these same questions. I want to believe Image 1 was the first painting and the first buried Casque because I feel BP took a long time with all of the photos he took. I am familiar with old Polaroid film and if you take a coin a person can draw right on the image to manipulate it. I believe this was use by BP to alter an image of the many moons in the painting. If he was in the area a long time he may have made up his plan during this time. I hope some of these question will be answered.
Lastly: Now that the Im-1 and V-7 forums have "shot-down" 5 of my first "knee-jerk" solutions... Does this make me an "ACE"? Or, do I have to have dug holes to become one...?
Thanks to All! I believe it's still there! Let's find it.
maltedfalcon
skyranger56 wrote::
1) Was Image 1 the first painting done by JJP for Byron?
2) Was this the first casque buried?
3) How long was Byron at Stanford? Dates? Was he "courting" Sandi during this time?
4) How long was Sandi in SF before they got married in 1986? Dates? Why was She there? What for? Where did She stay-or hang out?
5) Was Byron, or his Father Edmund, a
Free Mason
?
6) Were any of Byron's, or Sandi's family in the
US Military
?
7) Do you believe that Sandi had any input into the NY or SF puzzles? They may have known these two cities more
intimately
than any of the others (because; they met in NY and fell in Love in SF)?
1 only JJP knows and he is not talking, but probably
2 no one knows
3 probably 2-3 years., no idea
4 no idea
5 probably not
6 no idea
7 I understood it to be all done by the time Byron and his wife got together.
Choice
Do we really need to know any of these info to solve any of the puzzles?
prospector
Choice wrote::
Do we really need to know any of these info to solve any of the puzzles?
I have been doing a lot of research about the path to the place to dig up the treasure and I am thinking it may have taken BP way to long to be able to do all details I think he may have done in the time frame. So yes, Choice, I do believe some of these question would help.
I don't like to post my thoughts on this forum because the feed back gets so negative. I have a location I would like to dig and wanted to invite some of the old timers on the forum to comment on my ideas but I don't think they would take me serious. I have reached out to a few people through PM and had a few responses. I prefer to communicate that way. So discounting my comments to a new person on this post, and also not encouraging new people is only going to block new ideas. Yes, some of the new posts have hair brained thinking, but I get a kick out of most of the posts. I have mapped a path to a solve from finding things in the image that leads to the verse.
Should I share my ideas on this forum?
gManTexas
prospector wrote::
I have been doing a lot of research about the path to the place to dig up the treasure and I am thinking it may have taken BP way to long to be able to do all details I think he may have done in the time frame. So yes, Choice, I do believe some of these question would help.
I don't like to post my thoughts on this forum because the feed back gets so negative. I have a location I would like to dig and wanted to invite some of the old timers on the forum to comment on my ideas but I don't think they would take me serious. I have reached out to a few people through PM and had a few responses. I prefer to communicate that way. So discounting my comments to a new person on this post, and also not encouraging new people is only going to block new ideas. Yes, some of the new posts have hair brained thinking, but I get a kick out of most of the posts. I have mapped a path to a solve from finding things in the image that leads to the verse.
Should I share my ideas on this forum?
Do you have two different logins?
Here's the thing, a lot of people come onto the forum, post wild hair-brained theories and then disappear. Also, most people don't bother to read the threads and see what has been discussed, investigated and thrown out as not great ideas.
You have a few options:
1. Post anyway and take the potential criticism.
2. Don't post publicly and just PM people.
3. Develop some concepts with people, then they will be more invested and teamwork is always a good approach.
I have noticed that people tend to take criticism very personally. It is the concept that is being criticized, not you personally. That is, unless you are a total tool.
Rviewer1
I have been looking at the building structure up in the far left top corner of image 1. I have thought that it may have been the palace of fine art or the Legion of Honor and then possibly an observatory. I think I finally may have gotten it. It is sitting up there on top of the rocks. It is a generic house up on top of a cliff. That would make it the “The Cliff House”. AKA an object of Twain’s attention.
JamesV
[quote="prospector"]
I have been doing a lot of research about the path to the place to dig up the treasure and I am thinking it may have taken BP way to long to be able to do all details I think he may have done in the time frame. /quote]
I also support this concept... HOWEVER, the podcast guys did some fantastic work interviewing the book's production team, which I believe should outweigh any personal suspicions I still hold.
Unless the sculptor/photographer/writers' memories are all faulty (which is entirely possible, especially after 35 years) or unless they're all committed to carrying on the book's mystique for some unknown reason (again, also possible), the collective agreement seems to be that the production work was all completed within the timeframe.
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
I have been looking at the building structure up in the far left top corner of image 1. I have thought that it may have been the palace of fine art or the Legion of Honor and then possibly an observatory. I think I finally may have gotten it. It is sitting up there on top of the rocks. It is a generic house up on top of a cliff. That would make it the “The Cliff House”. AKA an object of Twain’s attention.
With that logic all structures in the image could be considered cliff house. You need to show some resemblance. I thought it may be the Marconi (Edison's cat's paw) memorial with round top and square corners.
Choice
Here are a few pictures of a helicopter tour brochure of the era I came across. Interesting maps and graphics. Click on the images to expand.
https://imgur.com/a/r4iSSiR
https://imgur.com/a/k4vK5j8
https://imgur.com/a/5DikEbw
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
It seems like Mark has lost control of this forum. 11 of 20 front page threads are porn now. Are we under threat of getting hacked or infected?
Off-topic, but still a hilarious memory. I run an ARG (pretty much like the games Werewolf or Mafia). In 2008, I wrote an article for Gamespy and I linked to a novel I was writing and storing on my ARG board, just because I had nowhere else to store it. Russian porn bots somehow migrated from Gamespy to my boards, to my current ARG. It was funny at first, but we eventualy had to nuke the whole board when the bots figured out how to get into our root shit.
Internet 2.0 had a lot of issues, and it's nice to remember these tragedies as humorous indicators that we should be quite wary of Internet 2.0 stuff. My rule is: just don't link to a site associated with you personally. Imgur: Cool. Google: Cool. My own folder of pictures from my vacation to SF: Probably gonna get ganked by a slow-moving porn bot,
prospector
I am sharing this image that I manipulated to make the round images blue. I believe the moons are the greens and/or the sand traps from the golf course at Golden Gate Park. I saw this some time ago but I wanted to go visit the park to see if the greens were anywhere near a place to see the high posts are three or near JFK drive. I went up to the golf course and it is up on a hill with large trees blocking the view. But it is off of JFK drive.
https://imgur.com/sNNgo3G
I also searched what the the symbols represent that are on the front of the image near the Gh. This is what I found. I read on a post (maybe here) or somewhere else about the golf scorecard symbol meaning. I found something that clears up some of my questions. Maybe even the Ace is High? See below.
Hole-in-One
When a golfer is successful in hitting his ball from the tee-box so that it falls into the hole in only one stroke he is said to have performed a hole-in-one, or an ace. On a par-3, an ace is equivalent to an eagle since it required 2 fewer strokes than is deemed standard, or below par.
Traditionally, for a hole-in-one to be considered valid another golfer must have witnessed it. In such cases, the golfer who scored the ace will usually conserve his scorecard and have it signed by the witness(es), as per tradition. He will also usually conserve the ball in question and may even decide to write a note on it to document the coup.
If he seeks to further follow tradition the golfer that scores a hole-in-one will make his way into the clubhouse bar after the round and excitedly inform his fellow golfers of his recent feat. He will then proceed to buying a round to everyone present and may even make that round a round of champagne if he is so keen.
Jun 19, 2016 - This makes adding up the score very simple. ... I've never had a hole-in-one, but someday I hope to put a triangle on my card around a 1!
Draw a circle around the score for a birdie (one under par) or a square around the score for a bogey (one over par). Use a double circle for an eagle (two under par, which is rare among average golfers) or a double square for a double bogey.
So far I have entered Golden Gate Park at the Senior Center, moved to JFK drive where the road is divided (this is where I see the crossed arms) and then I would head toward the Golf Course. Look at the map of the golf course and see the moons. I took the map and colored the greens blue and a sand trap and found the moons. What do you think?
gManTexas
Goldengate wrote::
I'm not big on Masonic theories, but I still believe this portion of the dragon resembles a bird of prey head...
I agree that it looks like a bird head.
As for the Masonic connections, it would be difficult to not run into historical members or buildings throughout the country. Many of the founding fathers were Masons. I don't think it goes much beyond that though. This is not The Secret we are searching for, lol.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I'm not big on Masonic theories...
Most obvious connection of image 1 to freemasons is the moons. The fact that they like to layout structures according to the position of stars.
"As above, so below"
So trace the moons down to the map according to size of the moon and you'll get the waypoints.
“Fear is the path to the dark side.”
Choice
I too agree that it shouldn't be overcomplicated. Drawing a straight line down from a moon is hardly complicated math or vectoring. One can even fold a copy of the image to get a similar result.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
I'm not big on Masonic theories, but I still believe this portion of the dragon resembles a bird of prey head...
You mean that's not a big masonic G?!!
Here are a couple of more options: Phoenix seal on Coit, Fish on Dragon's Gate.
bbi
Choice wrote::
Has anyone probed the red X area?
Just taken a screenshot of an old home movie from 1980. Looks like the semaphore pole (I think) that appears to be roughly in front of you're red X probe area. Maybe the giant pole? (this pole was also mentioned by one user back in 2007, but it looked like that trail went cold) You can also see not far away "High posts are three" in this shot (The Balclutha I beleive).
Also, I've not looked into it yet but whats the white building to the right of this screenshot with the various towers?
https://imgur.com/EBCTjZj
Choice
That's a very nice shot. Thank you for that.
drunknerds
i enjoy that there is apparently a site on the Internet that felt the need to provide a definition of "hole-in-one" in golf. We need to get that information out there.
bbi
Goldengate wrote::
Hey bbi! Thanks for sharing! I absolutely think it will take this kind of resourcefulness, transparency and teamwork to uncover the clues we need! Just for the purposes of having your image visible, I've attached it here. One of these days, somebody's going to see something that strikes a nerve. Thanks again!
Thank you also Goldengate for sharing you're batch of images the other day. Thanks to those images I was able to see for the first time a building I'd been trying to see for quite a while. Back in 1947 the San Francisco City Department of Public Works constructed a sewage pumping plant to alleviate the sewage problem that had plagued the water quality in the cove for over a decade. It was built on the northeast corner of the Aquatic Park. All thats there now is a grassy area, up and till last year there had been 4 monkey puzzle trees. These trees were planted to surround the pump station along with shrubs. Just looked like a great place to bury something. I contacted the San Francisco City Department of Public Works and they provided me a bunch of old plans but no photo images of what it looked like (but they were very prompt at providing such information). There was no mention of when it was removed, I just wanted to know what it looked like. Anyway, I've uploaded one of those plans and have embedded part of an image you provided highlighting the pump station.
Choice
bbi wrote::
I just wanted to know what it looked like...
On Google Earth they show it in 1987 but not in 1993. Those are the only two years going bak.
bbi
Choice wrote::
On Google Earth they show it in 1987 but not in 1993. Those are the only two years going bak.
Nice, thanks Choice.
bbi
I guess whilst I'm at it. I managed to obtain a hard copy of an 1981 Visitor's Guide Map to San Francisco:
Front -
https://imgur.com/4GBM0DT
Back-
https://imgur.com/VGYwxBG
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
On Google Earth they show it in 1987 but not in 1993. Those are the only two years going bak.
Call the city permit office and ask for construction site plans and architectural drawings.
They are public record.
Choice
Looking at the architectural drawings it's just a trailer with a vent stack on top. I don't see any significance to the hunt.
bbi
Choice wrote::
Looking at the architectural drawings it's just a trailer with a vent stack on top. I don't see any significance to the hunt.
Yes, I know that now after I looked into it. But wanted to rule it out as it was potentially there in the early 80”s. Who knows it could have had some kind of image match on the exterior? But thought I’d share in case anyone had any recollection to it.
bbi
burnstyle wrote::
Call the city permit office and ask for construction site plans and architectural drawings.
They are public record.
Mmm, think I will just as a matter of throughly rulling it in or out as part of the aquatic park area.
Cheers
Choice
Hey, I'd never heard of monkey puzzle trees so that was cool.
Now if there was a mention of "barrel of monkeys" in the verse or image then I'd be all over it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJWMsEyAgE
bbi
Choice wrote::
Hey, I'd never heard of monkey puzzle trees so that was cool.
I used to be a tree surgeon and that’s the common name for. If you look at the leaves they are extremely hard and sharp as well as pointing in the same direction. This always made me laugh, Someone once told me that monkeys climb up them but couldn’t get back down due to the sharp leaves pointing upwards, the monkey would then be puzzled on how to get down. A little bit like this treasure hunt really
prospector
drunknerds wrote::
i enjoy that there is apparently a site on the Internet that felt the need to provide a definition of "hole-in-one" in golf. We need to get that information out there.
Yes, a hole in one is called an ace and the triangle it the symbol used on the scorecard. The square is also a symbol on a golf scorecard. This may seem unimportant at this point to some, but I believe the golf course is on the path to an area I want to dig.
The golf course photo I altered I posted the other day. The moons are the greens.
Choice
Do we need to buy a round to get on the green?
prospector
Choice wrote::
Do we need to buy a round to get on the green?
Seriously, I walked all over that course a few weeks ago. I only saw three people. The original club house burned down.
Choice
Are you digging the sand boxes or near trees? Certainly not the green. Here's your image. Hope it's OK.
Choice
My thought on the moons is that they are like ball pins you use on a board to mark a spot on a map or a waypoint in this case.
prospector
Choice wrote::
My thought on the moons is that they are like ball pins you use on a board to mark a spot on a map or a waypoint in this case.
Choice,
Thanks for posting my blue moon/greens. I can't seem to get images to post directly to the page. I use the link. I guess my idea of the moons being the greens are as good as any other of the many ideas out there.
Why are you still awake? I don't think the moons are where to dig. I just think they are showing the way. I am on a roll. I hope to get down the road soon.
Choice
It's going to be wet and muddy for the foreseeable future. But when you do post some pics.
To post image to the board click the [Img] tab on top of the window where you're typing and paste your image link right in the middle.
Then on the bottom of the window click [Preview] button to make sure it works.
prospector
Thanks Choice, Let me see if this works.
https://imgur.com/7LEsxbP
In case it doesn't work.
AND:
The word Gate on this rock caught my attention. I looked up Gate in
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/gate
and guess what? Gate = Door
Need I say more?
Choice
prospector wrote::
Thanks Choice, Let me see if this works.
https://imgur.com/7LEsxbP
In case it doesn't work.
AND:
The word Gate on this rock caught my attention. I looked up Gate in
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/gate
and guess what? Gate = Door
Need I say more?
Almost, sooo close! Just make sure your image link ends with correct image extension i.e. .JPG or .PNG or .GIF
Stonewall's door has been interpreted as GoldenGate park, GG bridge, Dragon's Gate, dragon's mouth, stone seawall, brick wall, any old concrete or granite wall and I'm sure a bunch more I'm missing. Let's add bolder to the list!
drunknerds
prospector wrote::
Yes, a hole in one is called an ace and the triangle it the symbol used on the scorecard. The square is also a symbol on a golf scorecard. This may seem unimportant at this point to some, but I believe the golf course is on the path to an area I want to dig.
The golf course photo I altered I posted the other day. The moons are the greens.
The triangle for ace is high works, I forgot a triangle is sometimes a hole in one.
My main issue, and this applies to the entire verse, is that "ace is high" can refer to a million games. Ace is high in bridge, and you sit at a square table. Maybe we should find one of the million bridges in SF. Ace is high in poker, maybe it's near a fireplace or fire station, etc. Last summer we walked the length of GGP attaching everything to the verse, then walked back, also finding great matches to the verse. One can start anywhere in SF and find everything in the verse if you walk a little.
Same with the square: There are squares EVERYWHERE in every city. But triangles? Not so much. So a triangle for an ace blips my radar just a bit.
And, yeah, seconding that that golf course is super casual. Or at least it was in the 80s and 90s when I used to golf there.
Goonie68
I understand the word Ace in golf meaning one, put if we are to apply "is high" to ace with in the context of Golf, then this doesn't fit very well. In golf an "ace" is low. The verse is giving direction to: High is something elevated a direction....so what has the number one and is "high" Now one could argue that the greens are elevated , but the green would be high before the "ace" occurs, so the verse would read "High is ace" ?
Squares and a Triangle are geometric shapes that are presented to us in the painting, in the image we have lots and lots of squares or blocks, squares with dots, but only one triangle with dot. Let's think about this from a map perspective, SF has many area's named So in So Square, which is surrounded by blocks (squares) also the Triangle from a map perspective, there are a few places in the City that have this shape. The image shows us a triangle a basic shape of geometry , used by the Egyptians (Pyramid) oh and with Dot in the triangle could suggest "the all seeing eye" Masonic hint to Pyramid???? Where in SF would there be a Pyramid...next to a square......hhhhmmmm??????? Anyone????
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
I understand the word Ace in golf meaning one, put if we are to apply "is high" to ace with in the context of Golf, then this doesn't fit very well. In golf an "ace" is low. The verse is giving direction to: High is something elevated a direction....so what has the number one and is "high" Now one could argue that the greens are elevated , but the green would be high before the "ace" occurs, so the verse would read "High is ace" ?
Squares and a Triangle are geometric shapes that are presented to us in the painting, in the image we have lots and lots of squares or blocks, squares with dots, but only one triangle with dot. Let's think about this from a map perspective, SF has many area's named So in So Square, which is surrounded by blocks (squares) also the Triangle from a map perspective, there are a few places in the City that have this shape. The image shows us a triangle a basic shape of geometry , used by the Egyptians (Pyramid) oh and with Dot in the triangle could suggest "the all seeing eye" Masonic hint to Pyramid???? Where in SF would there be a Pyramid...next to a square......hhhhmmmm??????? Anyone????
The redwood park that abuts the Transamerica pyramid?
https://pyramidcenter.com/point-of-inte ... wood-park/
It's got jumping frogs and a plaque memorializing a dog whom Twain wrote a eulogy for.\
That's true about golf. I forget that their scoring is all backwards (why is below par bad in life but good in golf?) Thinking about it more, there have to be a million better ways to hint towards a golf course, as Goonie pointed out Ace is Low would be a better way and makes for a much trickier solve because Aces aren't traditionally low. But I do like that it connects the verse to the image, not a lot of solvers are trying to anchor their verse solve with an image match.
catherwood
drunknerds wrote::
The redwood park that abuts the Transamerica pyramid?
https://pyramidcenter.com/point-of-inte ... wood-park/
It's got jumping frogs and a plaque memorializing a dog whom Twain wrote a eulogy for.
That page literally begins with "Privately owned Redwood Park..." which I think automatically rules it out.
gManTexas
catherwood wrote::
That page literally begins with "Privately owned Redwood Park..." which I think automatically rules it out.
I don't think Goonie was implying that the casque is buried there.
catherwood
gManTexas wrote::
I don't think Goonie was implying that the casque is buried there.
whoops, sorry, my bad, you're right. In the direction of private land is acceptable for navigation purposes. Carry on!
Choice
I think he means Gh.
Also a couple of flashbacks:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3460
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3471
Goonie68
Let me clarify this instead of speaking in riddle
My theory is:
"Running north, but first across"
If you look at the hand that points down to the 3 blocks, the finger has the same direction or angle as Columbus Ave. Think about this for a minute, Running north, Columbus Ave runs North and South, first across, we were taught back in the 80's Columbus was the first to cross to the America's, Columbus Ave runs into Montgomery st or The Transamerica Pyramid (symbol on the dress collar) The Transamerica Pyramid is named after Transamerica Corp. The founder of the Bank of Italy AP Giannini helped emigrants after the 1906 earthquake to get loans and bank when all other Banks would not. Giannini would go onto turning the Bank of Italy to what we know now as the Bank of America. Columbus Ave runs into basically (the bank of America, Transamerica Pyramid) Columbus, America, first across. Also where the Transamerica Pyramid stands is on the old Montgomery Block. This is where the Twain's verse plays into the puzzle (IMO)
"is an object of Twain's attention"
Montgomery Block is where Samuel Clemmons became Mark Twain, he sharpened his craft as a writer during his time in SF and the people he hung out with. The "object" is the Pyramid which stands tall (attention) over most of the area. Washington Square is adjacent to Columbus AVE, standing at Washington Square you get a view of the Pyramid, you have a Square and a Triangle next to each other (reasonably close) as depicted on the collar Square/Triangle , from Washington Square you see Giant Pole, (Coit Tower) I am fine tuning the rest of this theory but it play's down to and x marks the spot. This is a portion of the theory.
drunknerds
catherwood wrote::
That page literally begins with "Privately owned Redwood Park..." which I think automatically rules it out.
Interesting. I never imagined that the Transamerica Pyramid wasn't a city project, but yep it was built by a life insurance company.
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Where in SF would there be a Pyramid...next to a square......hhhhmmmm??????? Anyone????
Washington square is next to Transamerica?
You have a better fit with Union square.
The layout of the square was just like the image 1 with trees lined up on each side like numbers on a clock and rounded top.
Also a tunnel crosses underneath like her arms.
And explains the 11 moons. 11th month is November which means 9th.
union square menorah has 9 candles,
Too bad the square is completely excavated and renovated.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Washington square is next to Transamerica?
You have a better fit with Union square.
The layout of the square was just like the image 1 with trees lined up on each side like numbers on a clock and rounded top.
Also a tunnel crosses underneath like her arms.
No not next too, From the square you get a good look at the Pyramid, Columbus AVE connects the Square to the Pyramid.
drunknerds
I like your work, but I feel like Coit tower can't be the pole. It's visible from a ton of places, the verse seems to say "take a step away and dig," and neither Chicago nor Cleveland's verses referred to any huge monuments.
Edit: oh, also it's not a pole.
Also I realize a square is on either side of the Gh. Am I the last person to notice this?
Goonie68
IMO or theory puts the Casque area at Washington Square, Casque should be in a corner of the park. Washington Square has many connections to the image (IMO) St. Peter and Paul Church is one of them. Inside the Church is a replica of Our lady of Lourdes, this could be the inspiration behind the image and puts a physical address to the grotto likeness depicted in the image. There are three 6's in the image, the address of the Church is 666 Filbert st. (Crazy right 666 for a church) inside the church you have a grotto (which we see in the image) A clock on the wall that resembles the one in the image, on the outside of the church you have a bird of prey, which resembles the bird in the 6 in the middle of the dragon. The church is Roman Catholic, the reason why the numbers showing us the long/lat are roman numerals, Across in the park is a geo survey marker placed in the late 18oo's that gives the Lat/Long of San Francisco.
There seems to be a similar pattern with Chicago, if the casque is located at Washington Square. Chicago Park Grant President, SF park Washington President, both with in a geometric shape to describe an area, Circle (or loop) Chicago, SF Square.
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
I like your work, but I feel like Coit tower can't be the pole. It's visible from a ton of places, the verse seems to say "take a step away and dig," and neither Chicago nor Cleveland's verses referred to any huge monuments.
Edit: oh, also it's not a pole.
Also I realize a square is on either side of the Gh. Am I the last person to notice this?
Yes actually that is why I think Squares are a part of this puzzle,
Oh and no the Giant Pole.....? I know that Coit was not the Pole that is written in the plaque , but it stands in it's place. Chicago ? Lincoln not huge? Hmmmm
LOL
Choice
Don't forget the Benjamin Franklin statue and the time capsule in the base of it (1979-2079). Clock on the table with twilight zone spiral for time travel to past?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU
By Date:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJj9nvk0AgY
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Don't forget the Benjamin Franklin statue and the time capsule in the base of it (1979-2079). Clock on the table with twilight zone spiral for time travel to past?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU
By Date:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJj9nvk0AgY
I like that...
Tho I have a few rebus for the clock, possibly
Mountain or Rock = hard plus clock = Hard time = Jail or
Clock =Time and table = Timetable , Bus stop, Cable car stop a transportation route?
Choice
Rose with two thorns pointing downward towards spiral.
Now imagine the rose is the top of a key and the arrows, the key stem goes into the spiral or spring.
It's like winding an alarm clock and setting it for 100 years?
That big "6" thing or top of the table itself could be a big C, roman for century, 100.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Rose with two thorns pointing downward towards spiral.
Now imagine the rose is the top of a key and the arrows, the key stem goes into the spiral or spring.
It's like winding an alarm clock and setting it for 100 years?
That big "6" thing or top of the table itself could be a big C, roman for century, 100.
Could be, and who is on a 100 dalha BILL....lol
Goonie68
Goldengate wrote::
Awesome Goonie -- I always look forward to checking out our smart, well put together walkthroughs!
Thanks GG! Again thanks for the Japanese hints!
prospector
There have been some great posts today. I see the hints take each person to their favorite area they believe leads to where to dig.
Choice
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Darmok and Jalad on the ocean
Goonie68
A few more things to add to my theory and image connection, the finger that points down.....Using the Dragon as reference to Lombard ST, 3 blocks down line you up with Washington Square, her finger points to the Corner of the third block, this would line you up with Union Street(between the third and fourth block). In the image the Yin and Yang symbol could possible be a hint to Union, the symbol does represent a union of two.
Also an observation to the finger pointing down, if you look at the way it is positioned, it looks like the gesture when you use your finger to mimic someone walking or maybe a hint to cross walk
You would need to cross the street from Filbert to Columbus to get you to the corner of the park, where the Giant step is, and from the step up and over, "To the place Where the casque is kept"
There is a bench just outside Marini Plaza (on Union st) ,which looks like a Giant step, from that bench you can see Coit Tower (Giant Pole) up and over the bench you possibly could be on treasure grounds. The bench is a rectangle shape and has the same pattern as the dress of the Gal, a rectangle with a inner rectangle. On the bench is a iron spiral fixture, hmm this kind of has the same feel as Chicago?? From this spot, you have man made objects, you can see the Giant Pole and step, you see the clues Running north, but first across, Twain's Object and a few more image confirmers. The bench also has bars (in the process of confirming these where there in 1980) I know this place is fenced off, and a lot of traffic around but if dug early enough under the blue hour maybe this is doable?
Choice
The thorns and stem of the rose may form a sharp-pointed shovel.
If the horizontal lines on that wall match the lines pictured below and that wall existed 40 years ago then the position of the shovel may be the spot.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
The thorns and stem of the rose may form a sharp-pointed shovel.
If the horizontal lines on that wall match the lines pictured below and that wall existed 40 years ago then the position of the shovel may be the spot.
The bench has been there ,or at that park from 1930's, but not sure if the placement was at that location, but from the looks of the fence it could of been (I have seen this up close, the fence) If you connect the leafs they form a triangle almost an exact match of the shape of the park. The shadow leaf points down to the X which I believe that is to the west from the location, in the verse "in jewel's direction" This is simply saying West. The jewel for SF is in the West. You would line yourself up with the center of the pole on the bench 4'O clock as the shadow leaf points, west to the X.
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Darmok and Jalad on the ocean
Choice
Kiteo, his eyes closed
Mister EZ
Choice wrote::
Kiteo, his eyes closed
Choice
Zinda, his face black, his eyes red
We better cut it out before the hall-monitor catch us!
Choice
Another place of interest at Coit:
• First of all the round table and the rotating sign (spiral) indicates a
counter
clockwise
turning of the table similar to the flow of the cars around the Columbus statue.
• The gold outline pushed up by dragons nose is representation of Telegraph hill.
• The dragon’s nose itself is a near perfect profile image of the base of the statue in the 70’s and 80’s.
• I don’t think there were any flowers planted in the area and no fence then.
• Inside dragon’s mouth seems to be a flying dove (Colombo in Italian)
• Shadow of the pearl looks similar to the statues mid section.
• Columbus’ protruding shoulder pads are similar to the woman’s.
• The rose stem and thorns form a shovel pointing to dig area.
• The horizontal lines by the shovel show the shape of the round planter layer design.
Yet again because of installation of new base the cask may be lost if it was ever there.
Choice
Another place of interest at Coit:
• First of all the round table and the rotating sign (spiral) indicates a counter clockwise turning of the table similar to the flow of the cars around the Columbus statue.
• The gold outline pushed up by dragons nose is representation of Telegraph hill.
• The dragon’s nose itself is a near perfect profile image of the base of the statue in the 70’s and 80’s.
• I don’t think there were any flowers planted in the area and no fence then.
• Inside dragon’s mouth seems to be a flying dove (Colombo in Italian)
• Shadow of the pearl looks similar to the statues mid section.
• Columbus’ protruding shoulder pads are similar to the woman’s.
• The rose stem and thorns form a shovel pointing to dig area.
• The horizontal lines by the shovel show the shape of the round planter layer design.
Yet again because of installation of new base the cask may be lost if it was ever there.
Choice
Choice wrote::
Washington square is next to Transamerica?
You have a better fit with Union square.
The layout of the square was just like the image 1 with trees lined up on each side like numbers on a clock and rounded top.
Also a tunnel crosses underneath like her arms.
And explains the 11 moons. 11th month is November which means 9th.
union square menorah has 9 candles,
Too bad the square is completely excavated and renovated.
A bit of SF history:
Maiden Lane
Red-light district
Adjacent to Union square
222 Stockton
https://tinyurl.com/ybnj7o67
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_La ... _Francisco
)
drunknerds
catherwood wrote::
Did I miss the full report on this find? Did you gather pieces? Plexiglass is probably too generic to compare to other plastic samples, but the pottery could be analyzed. Did you post any photos of these artifacts?
I posted one or two pics. I mailed the pottery to Burnstyle, looks like it's not the real deal. It FREAKED out my friend who was with me and doesn't follow the Secret. I said, "If we are in the right place, there should be plexiglass shards and white clay scattered about from the renovation," then we found exactly that. It was fun.
drunknerds
Rviewer1 wrote::
I'm strongly convinced that NOTHING in verse 7 is going to be the key. It's all way too common stuff. Twain wrote about everything, everywhere in SF. I've literally closed my eyes and put my finger on a spot in GGP, then found something that relates to Twain in all 8 cardinal directions. The entire park is flanked by
Fulton
street, for goodness sakes.
Edit: Huh, I've been responding to posts from weeks ago. sorry!
drunknerds
Goonie68 wrote::
Yes actually that is why I think Squares are a part of this puzzle,
Oh and no the Giant Pole.....? I know that Coit was not the Pole that is written in the plaque , but it stands in it's place. Chicago ? Lincoln not huge? Hmmmm
LOL
I mean, I love everything else, but you're comparing a 12' statue of L:incoln with a 210' tower and saying they both are giant monuments.
I like the "tall pole on plaque=giant pole" except you keep saying "the pole is visible," when in fact the pole no longer exists.
Is there a flagpole in Wash sq?
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
Another place of interest at Coit:
• First of all the round table and the rotating sign (spiral) indicates a
counter
clockwise
turning of the table similar to the flow of the cars around the Columbus statue.
• The gold outline pushed up by dragons nose is representation of Telegraph hill.
• The dragon’s nose itself is a near perfect profile image of the base of the statue in the 70’s and 80’s.
• I don’t think there were any flowers planted in the area and no fence then.
• Inside dragon’s mouth seems to be a flying dove (Colombo in Italian)
• Shadow of the pearl looks similar to the statues mid section.
• Columbus’ protruding shoulder pads are similar to the woman’s.
• The rose stem and thorns form a shovel pointing to dig area.
• The horizontal lines by the shovel show the shape of the round planter layer design.
Yet again because of installation of new base the cask may be lost if it was ever there.
I like your work. I am trying so hard, but I see none of these things. Particularly the lines around the wall and the lines in the image: The lines in the image are different widths, unlike the lines in the wall. Parallel lines are everywhere.
The pearl's shadow is rounded, the crotch of the statue is almost pointed. Also, would Preiss or JJP really say "ooh, I'll draw this man's crotch in here, wow!"
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
Another place of interest at Coit:
• First of all the round table and the rotating sign (spiral) indicates a counter clockwise turning of the table similar to the flow of the cars around the Columbus statue.
• The gold outline pushed up by dragons nose is representation of Telegraph hill.
• The dragon’s nose itself is a near perfect profile image of the base of the statue in the 70’s and 80’s.
• I don’t think there were any flowers planted in the area and no fence then.
• Inside dragon’s mouth seems to be a flying dove (Colombo in Italian)
• Shadow of the pearl looks similar to the statues mid section.
• Columbus’ protruding shoulder pads are similar to the woman’s.
• The rose stem and thorns form a shovel pointing to dig area.
• The horizontal lines by the shovel show the shape of the round planter layer design.
Yet again because of installation of new base the cask may be lost if it was ever there.
I like your work. I am trying so hard, but I see none of these things. Particularly the lines around the wall and the lines in the image: The lines in the image are different widths, unlike the lines in the wall. Parallel lines are everywhere.
The pearl's shadow is rounded, the crotch of the statue is almost pointed. Also, would Preiss or JJP really say "ooh, I'll draw this man's crotch in here, wow!"
Choice
drunknerds wrote::
Also, would Preiss or JJP really say "ooh, I'll draw this man's crotch in here, wow!"
Hey, that's where his family jewels are.
drunknerds
Choice wrote::
Hey, that's where his family jewels are.
Now I know what he meant when he said "giant pole."
Choice
Now you're getting it
Choice
Choice wrote::
A bit of SF history:
Maiden
LANE
Red-light district
Adjacent to Union square
222
Stockton
https://tinyurl.com/ybnj7o67
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_La ... _Francisco
)
The lady in the image is modeled after Star
MAIDEN
. Note her partially opened mouth.
DA25550
Goonie68 wrote::
St. Peter and Paul Church is one of them. Inside the Church is a replica of Our lady of Lourdes, this could be the inspiration behind the image and puts a physical address to the grotto likeness depicted in the image. There are three 6's in the image, the address of the Church is 666 Filbert st.
Each door to the church has 2 rows of vertical square blocks similar to the sleeves in the painting. The arms in the painting are crossed like the famous painting named "the embrace of St Peter and Paul". But where to dig?
I'm also torn between Aquatic park and Washington Square. Aquatic park theories makes sense. Could be between the blue skylight blocks, but it would be long gone in the 2009 renovations. No one's getting permission to dig there anyways, hope it is somewhere else.
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
I mean, I love everything else, but you're comparing a 12' statue of L:incoln with a 210' tower and saying they both are giant monuments.
I like the "tall pole on plaque=giant pole" except you keep saying "the pole is visible," when in fact the pole no longer exists.
Is there a flagpole in Wash sq?
Yes there is....12' could be considered Giant it all depends on how you view the word Giant
blackwood movie plot
Goonie68
DA25550 wrote::
Each door to the church has 2 rows of vertical square blocks similar to the sleeves in the painting. The arms in the painting are crossed like the famous painting named "the embrace of St Peter and Paul". But where to dig?
I'm also torn between Aquatic park and Washington Square. Aquatic park theories makes sense. Could be between the blue skylight blocks, but it would be long gone in the 2009 renovations. No one's getting permission to dig there anyways, hope it is somewhere else.
The angle in the front of the doors has a some very interesting features, curly hair, long nose an arched window behind her blocks on both sides of her......
blackwood movie plot
Choice
In my hunt, starting from Dragon's Gate (posted previously) I came up with at least 3 destination possibilities. One was the Washington Square. I interpreted "sounds" as church bells and shoehorned "3 posts" as 3 church crosses. I could almost feel the pearl in my hand, then came the pearl harbour (see what I did there?!); the Japanese translations (JT).
So back to the drawing board I came to the conclusion that the 2 destinations that can meet the JT requirements are Coit and Ghirardelli. That's if you are using verse 7.
Here's the issue with pairing I1, V7: JT suggest to search images for numbers then match a verse with the numbers present. I1 has sooo many numbers all over; V7 only #3 similar to I12.
However I1 has the Roman numerals I,I and II,II on the top 2 rows of her robe. I interpret this as 222 or V5.
I have a solution for paired I1, V5 at Union Square I worked on about half an hour yesterday so it's very rough. I may post it later on V5 thread.
So Goonie, how do you resolve the JT sounds, 3 posts and pairing issues?
DA25550
I tried using verse 5 to get to Washington Square with the Ben statue being the only standing member of a forest. Until I found there's another statue there with 3 people on it.
Goonies, thanks for the picture of the door from the inside. If you go to google street view, there's more squares on the outside. Seven high and 2 wide on each door.
Choice
DA25550 wrote::
I tried using verse 5 to get to Washington Square with the Ben statue being the only standing member of a forest. Until I found there's another statue there with 3 people on it.
Goonies, thanks for the picture of the door from the inside. If you go to google street view, there's more squares on the outside. Seven high and 2 wide on each door.
You're mixing to separate lines that are meant to be separate.
"Beneath the only standing member", best read if you put a comma after beneath. So beneath, meaning beneath the statue, the only standing member, or the only column in the park or square.
I mentioned UNION square not Washington Square.
Here's a rough draft.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=899&start=648
drunknerds
Verse 7 makes me so mad, in how abstract it is. There's no "socrates, pindar, appeles" there's no "10x13." It's all stuff that is literally everywhere:
- A stone wall with a door. A large % of walls are stone, and many have doors.
- The Air smells sweet. This means anywhere near something built/donated by Spreckles or Ghiradelli is in play. That's like half the city. Not to mention the places near bakeries or, dang, flowers.
- Not far away high posts are three. Yeah, there's three posts everywhere. It's actually the most limiting post in the whole verse. But there are three posts everywhere, especially if we use creative synonyms for "post." The wooden hint really helped to make this limited, and everyone trying to find verse matches should anchor them to this line, imo
- Education and justice for all to see. Any school, any police station, anywhere they teach something, anywhere they restrict something. Useless line.
- Sounds from the sky. You know what makes sounds in the sky? Birds. You know where birds are? Everywhere.
- Near ace is high. As mentioned, ace is high in almost every card game. Bridges, fire-related stuff (poker), black people and people named jack are all in play. Then you bring in the HWY 1 connection and it's near infinite.
- An object of Twain's attention. Twain is one of the most prolific writers of all time, and he got it all started inSF. Every single block in SF has a connection to Twain, if you do a bit of research.
- Giant pole. Every block has a telephone and/or a light pole.
- Giant step. Stairs abound, and if it's not stairs it's taking a step away from the above mentioned unlimited giant pole.
I recently left a solving group because they kept getting excited at "finding everything mentioned in the verse," and hand-waved me away when I pointed out that you can pick any spot in SF and do the verse. I came back to Q4T because you all understood the point of my "antarctica is referred to 12+ times in these two tiny parts of image 9." You get it.
Goddang Preiss... you wrote the most extractable verse in history and attached it to an image with like 1 definite match (cable car bell). Bad puzzle!
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
In my hunt, starting from Dragon's Gate (posted previously) I came up with at least 3 destination possibilities. One was the Washington Square. I interpreted "sounds" as church bells and shoehorned "3 posts" as 3 church crosses. I could almost feel the pearl in my hand, then came the pearl harbour (see what I did there?!); the Japanese translations (JT).
So back to the drawing board I came to the conclusion that the 2 destinations that can meet the JT requirements are Coit and Ghirardelli. That's if you are using verse 7.
Here's the issue with pairing I1, V7: JT suggest to search images for numbers then match a verse with the numbers present. I1 has sooo many numbers all over; V7 only #3 similar to I12.
However I1 has the Roman numerals I,I and II,II on the top 2 rows of her robe. I interpret this as 222 or V5.
I have a solution for paired I1, V5 at Union Square I worked on about half an hour yesterday so it's very rough. I may post it later on V5 thread.
So Goonie, how do you resolve the JT sounds, 3 posts and pairing issues?
I think the JT depends on where you are at in the puzzle, GGP will have a totally different meaning to somewhere in the Marina or in a certain part of the City. For where i am in the puzzle, JT sounds ,"something a human can't hear" "Device" The ringing of the bells from the church are generated from a machine (Device) this to me draws you towards Columbus Ave, Wooden posts I explained in an earlier post of the C.A. Thayer , explain pairing issues?
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Wooden posts I explained in an earlier post of the C.A. Thayer , explain pairing issues?
You must've posted about Thayer somewhere else. I can't find it. But you have no view of Hyde pier from there.
Pairing, we were told by JT to pair up I & V by matching numbers present in both. The only number present in V7 is 3. but many numbers in I1. V7 is better match for I12 since they both have 3 present and V5 for I1 since both have 222.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
You must've posted about Thayer somewhere else. I can't find it. But you have no view of Hyde pier from there.
Pairing, we were told by JT to pair up I & V by matching numbers present in both. The only number present in V7 is 3. but many numbers in I1. V7 is better match for I12 since they both have 3 present and V5 for I1 since both have 222.
Sorry I posted it in the Verse 7 thread. "high posts are three"
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
Sorry I posted it in the Verse 7 thread. "high posts are three"
Not far away? you need a telescope!
https://tinyurl.com/ybvja4sq
Goonie68
You must've posted about Thayer somewhere else. I can't find it. But you have no view of Hyde pier from there.
Pairing, we were told by JT to pair up I & V by matching numbers present in both. The only number present in V7 is 3. but many numbers in I1. V7 is better match for I12 since they both have 3 present and V5 for I1 since both have 222.[/quote]
Sorry I posted it in the Verse 7 thread. "high posts are three"[/quote]
Not far away? you need a telescope
From Ghirardelli I take it you are in the camp that you have to see every clue from the dig spot?
Choice
But I thought you are starting from Montgomery/Pyramid area and going north on Columbus. How does Ghirardelli get in the mix?
The problem is you started explaining your solve from the middle of the verse, "running north" part. It gets confusing when I don't have a starting point. Please a bit more cohesion.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
But I thought you are starting from Montgomery/Pyramid area and going north on Columbus. How does Ghirardelli get in the mix?
The problem is you started explaining your solve from the middle of the verse, "running north" part. It gets confusing when I don't have a starting point. Please a bit more cohesion.
For me the verse starts at the Aquatic Tomb stones "Walls door" (maybe a hint by the dead guy in the rocks a 49er?) then "the air smells sweet" Ghirardelli Square, "High Post" The CA Thayer, "Education and Justice" ( Alcatraz) The capitulation of the E & J put you at the intersection of Embarcadero ( E ) and Jefferson ( J ) . Head south on Powell, "sounds from the sky" (church bells) near ace is high" You pass Lombard Street (Dragon) Telegraph hill (ace being Coit address 1 on a high hill) brings you to Filberst street (church) using Powell st to Filber ( POW IMO is in the image , turn the image upside down read right from left and the spiral looks like a P , the clock shape an O and the stem coming off the table a W, POW short for POWELL. "Running north, but first across, Columbus runs North and south, you take Filbert to cross Columbus , but first across.
top ten epic poems
Choice
I like everything about it except the Twain thing. The Transamerica Pyramid is too convoluted for my simple mind.
Running north, but first across In jewel's direction Is an object Of Twain's attention
I break it down to:
Running north -- obviously the direction
first across -- Columbus
in jewel's direction -- East or West direction
Is an object of Twain's attention
Remove the direction instructions to find out what the object is first.
It reads: Columbus is an object of Twain's attention
Go further, mark twain means 12 feet (2 fathoms) and attention meaning stiff as statue
Then you get: Columbus is an object, 12 foot statue.
or: Columbus ia an object, 12 feet standing straight (or tall)
Rviewer1
I know most people are down with verse 6 being Charleston. I have found several ties to San Francisco. The verse lines "Beside the long palm's shadow" and then "White house close at hand." Look at where the actual shadow of the palm hits the white house below. I am working on a solve that has brought me here to the conservatory of flowers as the final location. I don't have time to go over it right now but I will try and get it out this week
Choice
Let it be Horseshoe sand pits. . o O (crosses fingers)
You do know that the upside-down horseshoe (frame of the image) is bad luck!
Choice
I like the overhead shot of the space in front of the conservatory with the round top and circle and the crossing area in the middle and the rows on each side. Just have to sort out the Japanese translation stuff, find 1913 in the Image. 1913 is present with a little ingenuity (shoehorning).
This thread is combination of whole lot of solution threads. I miss Spiritr!
BINGO
Choice wrote::
I miss Spiritr!
Go find him. I’m sure he needs help with the mathmatically advanced, super cryptic solutions that no one else has the capacity to understand.
Sorry in advance. I couldn’t resist.
Choice
BINGO wrote::
Go find him. I’m sure he needs help with the mathmatically advanced, super cryptic solutions that no one else has the capacity to understand.
Sorry in advance. I couldn’t resist.
A lot of pent up hostility! Sea kelp!
Choice
I've found period postcards a good media for image match. eBay is a good source for these.
Here's an example. Soooo close!
Choice
The Decoration Day that was celebrated in San Francisco on 30 May 1913. Based on the extensive illustrated coverage in the next morning's San Francisco Call newspaper, it appears that the 1913 event was conceived as the launch of a dedicated effort to raise the profile of Decoration Day as a more general holiday of remembrance.
hxxp://www.emperorsbridge.org/blog/2016 ... peror-1913
https://tinyurl.com/ybgxnehg
MERLIN
I wonder if this is our dragon hiding on the carousel - there is an amazing amount of imagery at the carousel. -
https://foursquare.com/v/golden-gate-pa ... de89965b3a
https://www.gpsmycity.com/img/au_attr/2190.jpg
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
I wonder if this is our dragon hiding on the carousel - there is an amazing amount of imagery at the carousel. -
https://foursquare.com/v/golden-gate-pa ... de89965b3a
https://www.gpsmycity.com/img/au_attr/2190.jpg
The carousel broke down in '77....it was sent to Ruby Newman Studios for restoration....it was put back and reopened in '84.
Here's her site, with pictures of her hand painting one of the mounts in '79.....many of the pictures there copyright, '80 to '85.
hxxp://www.rubynewman.com/main/carousel.html
hxxp://www.rubynewman.com/pages/DA_Carousel_History.htm
l
https://goldengatepark.com/golden-gate-park-carousel.html
There's a good picture of the restored sea dragon, here:
hxxp://www.rubynewman.com/pages/DA_Carousel_Menagerie.html
MERLIN
Wow it was originally powered by steam! Lots of good info - thanks EZ
Mister EZ
MERLIN wrote::
Wow it was originally powered by steam! Lots of good info - thanks EZ
Yup, yup.
I think Goonies also posted that link to the studio, sometime in March, last year....it's a phenomenal carousel.
Rviewer1
Back to Verse 6. I am going to breakdown verse 6 and image 1 from the beginning of the verse to the end of the verse. However I'm not using the verse in a linear fashion for my attempt at a solve. However I am using the methodology used in Chicago and Cleveland to a point. When I look at image 1, I get smacked in the face with the archetype that the "Rock" has become. I see a barred window on a rock. Therefore Alcatraz is my city confirmer not GGP. Any tourist will be more familiar with the rock (Alcatraz) than GGP IMO. Although I can see the merit of either being the city confirmer. What I have tried to bring together is food for thought and hopefully a new perspective at verse 6 and image 1. I have used work that has been done before me as I stand on the shoulders of giants. I have also added in my own work. Any ideas and input on this work would be graciously received. I am using movements to keep it partially linear to follow and they are coming from both verse and Image1.Which may be my diversion from the 2 previously solved cities methods. Although at this point I have not decided yet on how I'm going to put together the pieces that I have which I believe can get me down to a 2 foot area and the final location.
Hyde Street Pier and Alcatraz
So we have the first lines of the verse:
:Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here
By eyes of old"
This can be attributed to the songs and themes of the 1849ers diggers. It can also be traced to Robert Louis Stevenson in his book "Treasure Island". Quote from the book below.
"And all the old romance, retold" and "If sailor tales to sailor tunes" This almost comes out word for word from the book.
RLS has a plaque on Bush Street where he lived and one in Ports Mouth Square:
After speed reading "Treasure Island" there are so many parallels for us would be treasure hunters. Hopefully we will be more civil that Long John Silver.
Then we have:
"Stand and listen to the birds"
"Hear the cool, clear song of water”
If Alcatraz is my city Confirmer I would be at the Hyde Street pier (and the above verses would likely come into play) heading for the Hyde st Powell street cable car which leaves at yes, 6 AM, and that Hyde is a character in RLS’s book. "Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde". I would then go to Clay st which is an outlet for Portsmouth Square in China Town. I move down to Clay Street and run into Lafayette Square that has in interesting looking Fountain that resembles the table in image 1.
I have seen these Pics below posted on another forum and would make things interesting if you were into the cable car theme with the cable car turn around as the table top. Then you would have "the embedded in sand" hint at where the treasure is with the cable care in literally being sand. I have no idea if it is still there as that does not play into my attempt at a solve. It would have been a good idea though.
As I'm cruising down Clay's Street I suddenly "Harken to the words" "Freedom at the birth of a century Or May 1913"
This is a shout out to the "Emancipation Proclamation". "Or May 1913" was the 50th Anniversary of the "Emancipation Proclamation" as celebrated at the exposition of 1913. "Harken to the words" was a nod to James Weldon Johnson's poem that was written for the occasion:
On the Fiftieth Anniversary of the Signing of the Emancipation Proclamation.
O brothers mine, to-day we stand
Where half a century sweeps our ken,
Since God, through Lincoln’s ready hand,
Struck off our bonds and made us men.
Just fifty years–a winter’s day–
As runs the history of a race;
Yet, as we look back o’er the way,
How distant seems our starting place!
You can read the rest of the poem at your leisure.
Clay Street was named after Henry Clay who was an esteemed politician that was both speaker of the house and a senator from Kentucky as well as the Secretary of State. He was the cousin of Cassius Marcellus Clay who assisted Abraham Lincoln with the "Emancipation Proclamation". I'm sure that it is known that his family home was named "White Hall" in Kentucky and he was known as the "Lion of White Hall". As interesting as this is it does not come into play with my "White House" and last time I checked I did not see any palms.
Then we have "Edwin and Edwina named after him" That would be Edwin being named after Edwin Forrest. Edwin"s daughter was named Edwina. He was a famous Shakespearean actor. In a bit of historical irony it was Edwin Booth who saved Abraham Lincoln sons life. "Mr. Booth was so popular in San Francisco, that The San Francisco News Letter, a popular publication in the 19th century, featured a reproduction of a lithograph of him, by none other than the famous San Francisco lithographers Britton, Rey & Co. Printed for its readers as a free illustration, it notes on the bottom – “Gratis with “News Letter” Sept. 9th 1876″.
https://www.californiapioneers.org/shakespeare-in-19th-century-san-francisco/
Below is the Plaque found on 444 Bush Street in San Francisco where the California Theater was located with Edwin Booth being listed.
Continuing down Clay Street I come to a dead end on Arguello Blvd. This is where I come to the building structure that is located in image 1 up in the top left hand corner, the Temple Emanu-El. It sits at Lake St and Arguello.
On top of the dome there is a coral blue circle like the Gem. I don't think BP would have been able to see it though. Its good to take a look at the building from different angles. It does have a the same San Fancisco style pearl inside under the dome. Also the main focus of the Jewish Congregation is for social justice for the immigrants and refugees.
So I go left heading down Arguello to get to my next way points. I follow Arguello Blvd right into GGP on Conservatory Drive to the Conservatory of Flowers.
The next part of the verse is:
"Or on the eighth a scene
Where law defended"
This has to do with Shakespeare. William Shakespeare's themes in many of his works are about the law, legal issues and Justice. You can look at this in two ways. The Law is defended in the Court's. For this we have the Tennis Court Complex across the street.
Although I would attribute this part of the Verse to Shakespeare's Macbeth Act 5 Scene 8, where the Law and Order are restored to Scotland.
Then the next part of the verse goes "Between two arms extended". This would be the Garfield Monument back across the street from the Tennis Courts.
Then we have "Below the bar that binds". This again has to do with the Law. It means passing the bar exam to become Lawyer.
Now we have come full circle. We have the verses "Beside the long palm's shadow" and "White house close at hand"
And finally:
"Embedded in the sand"
"Waits the Fair remuneration"
This is where the treasure casque will be found. Stay tuned.
For me this has not been so much of a treasure hunt as it has been a history hunt. I know that this attempt at a San Francisco(image 1) solve for verse 6 will not be popular with a lot of Charleston people. Not to mention the Verse 7 people for Image 1. If for lack of anything else, I hope that some of this information will be helpful in some way.
bbi
This is a nice little booklet that was provided by the GGNRA in 1979 outlining their parks etc. Gives a good idea of what was accessible at the time and the types of activities provided in certain parks.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kfm1Z ... zc-1QHGZ-9
Goonie68
bbi wrote::
This is a nice little booklet that was provided by the GGNRA in 1979 outlining their parks etc. Gives a good idea of what was accessible at the time and the types of activities provided in certain parks.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kfm1Z ... zc-1QHGZ-9
Great resource of information! The brochure really makes Alcatraz a really good fit for Education and Justice, by what was written in the booklet,
"Alcatraz can provide an excellent educational outing, school groups can explore.
This kind of material would of resonated with BP as he was a teacher and possible used what was thought in (local) Jr /High school as clues to the verse.
Its resources like this that might of played a part in BP doing his research for the path to the casque.
drunknerds
But can't any historical spot provide an opportunity for education? I really can't see someone looking at a jail and thinking "education and justice" is a good fit.
maltedfalcon
drunknerds wrote::
I really can't see someone looking at a jail and thinking "education and justice" is a good fit.
go back and look through the posts with the word Alcatraz it has been suggested for both over and over and over.
Goonie68
drunknerds wrote::
But can't any historical spot provide an opportunity for education? I really can't see someone looking at a jail and thinking "education and justice" is a good fit.
Many schools take field trips to both Angle Island and Alcatraz, I should know went to both with my elementary school in the 70's so yes I can see where education can be thought of.
MERLIN
A possible site for "education and justice" may be UC Hastings college of the law in SF. Interestingly it is also associated with a place called Snodgrass hall which was a pen name that Twain used at one time.
drunknerds
maltedfalcon wrote::
go back and look through the posts with the word Alcatraz it has been suggested for both over and over and over.
Haha, don't I know it. I've read all verse and image threads from start to finish at least twice. I just think it's ridiculous.
If we open up the definition of "education" to "my class went there once" then every single landmark in SF fits and the clue becomes meaningless. Not to mention it just doesn't make sense: No one looks at a prison and thinks "education," even though there is some kind of education involved with every prison. It's like looking at the Statue of Liberty and calling it "Liberty and Literacy" just because there's an inscription at the base with words one can read.
It's tunneling: Picking a spot and then getting really creative with the verse to fit that spot. And it doesn't fit the known solves. "Socrates" wasn't "hey let's find something that has to do with Socrates" it was literally, "find the word Socrates." "Beneath two countries" wasn't "find something with two cultural influences" it was literally "find a spot near areas named for two countries."
So there it is:
- Way too broad an interpretation
- Doesn't pass the smell test
- Doesn't match the known solves
That's the thing about verse 7. It's sooooo non-specific you could pick anywhere in SF and interpret the verse to fit there. We need either an image match or the exact words from part of the verse to have a clue I would consider significant.
GoldenMartyr
So may people speak of the negative space in the dragon wing being a strawberry. Is it possible that it is actually a street lamp or something similar?
gManTexas
GoldenMartyr wrote::
So may people speak of the negative space in the dragon wing being a strawberry. Is it possible that it is actually a street lamp or something similar?
It is possible, although in the puzzles where we would specifically expect there to be light poles or street lamps clues, there does not seem to be any. Boston and Milwaukee especially, since the harp lights are very distinct.
GoldenMartyr
gManTexas wrote::
It is possible, although in the puzzles where we would specifically expect there to be light poles or street lamps clues, there does not seem to be any. Boston and Milwaukee especially, since the harp lights are very distinct.
What I was attempting to show is, the strawberry connection is somewhat loose. Sure, it could be correct, don't get me wrong about that but trace it and look at the layer without the photo.
People have latched onto many of these interpretations as fact and haven't looked much deeper. If you trace the entire portion of negative space, does the area look more like a light than what has been dubbed a strawberry in the past.
Can we challenge the methodology leveraging small reasonable changes that still walk a logical path?
gManTexas
GoldenMartyr wrote::
What I was attempting to show is, the strawberry connection is somewhat loose. Sure, it could be correct, don't get me wrong about that but trace it and look at the layer without the photo.
People have latched onto many of these interpretations as fact and haven't looked much deeper. If you trace the entire portion of negative space, does the area look more like a light than what has been dubbed a strawberry in the past.
Can we challenge the methodology leveraging small reasonable changes that still walk a logical path?
Yes. I never liked the concept of the strawberry. Seems superficial.
BINGO
GoldenMartyr wrote::
Can we challenge the methodology leveraging small reasonable changes that still walk a logical path?
The key word is logical here. The answer is absolutely yes.
The biggest problem with some of the assumptions that have been taken as fact is you may introduce sequential error into your path. If you make an error when interpreting/assuming a clue, the entire path can go off track.
gManTexas
BINGO wrote::
The key word is logical here. The answer is absolutely yes.
The biggest problem with some of the assumptions that have been taken as fact is you may introduce sequential error into your path. If you make an error when interpreting/assuming a clue, the entire path can go off track.
That's why we need to integrate all of the clues and see if we have gone astray. In other words, stick some push pins in the map and see where most of the things land.
BINGO
The best place to start looking might actually be the places that have no pins...
GoldenMartyr
BINGO wrote::
The key word is logical here.
Of course, that is why I included it. Many attempt to challenge what is commonly accepted with extreme methods. I'm not a fan of that. I'm also not a fan of forcing a method based on 17%(2 of 12).
gManTexas
GoldenMartyr wrote::
Of course, that is why I included it. Many attempt to challenge what is commonly accepted with extreme methods. I'm not a fan of that. I'm also not a fan of forcing a method based on 17%(2 of 12).
Side note, it's funny that both of you have signatures of crap Choice has said to you.
I don't think he plays well with others.
BINGO
gManTexas wrote::
Side note, it's funny that both of you have signatures of crap Choice has said to you.
I don't think he plays well with others.
That seems to be a common theme with his other screen names as well.
GoldenMartyr
gManTexas wrote::
I don't think he plays well with others.
C'est la vie....I'm just quick to say something when you show up to a baseball game with a tennis racket. People tend not to like that....but logic will break your heart.
Choice
Dang, thought vagina monologues was cancelled
jovialowl
I've primarily been focusing on Boston and New York as I live closer to there but I decided to branch out and try to see what I can learn from the other puzzles. I spent a decent amount of time in SF for work at a previous company so I felt most comfortable adding this one on to my search. I think the Verdi statue could be a good match for giant pole giant step. It looks like it got mentioned briefly here before, but has anyone checked it out? There's a small figure holding a large pole taking a step.
https://goo.gl/images/MTWMNT
maltedfalcon
jovialowl wrote::
, but has anyone checked it out? There's a small figure holding a large pole taking a step.
yes quite a few people have mentioned it or used that in their theories (not sure about people who looked there) .
you can stick the word Verdi in the search box over to the above right... it shows 11 results including you.
Kang
Just starting to skim gManTexas's Methodology First Edition document (highly recommend) and he cites that Da Vinci's "Virgin on the Rocks" was originally commissioned for a church in Milan. But it wasn't just any church...
From the "did you know" file - as slappybuns pointed out back in 2011 - It was commissioned to be the altarpiece for the chapel of the
San Francesco
Grande. (I see what ya did there JJP - you made an art pun that's also a city clue. Well played)....
hxxp://www.italianrenaissance.org/leona ... the-rocks/
Spiritr
the only city clues JJP did was the color scheme and the shape of the city's biggest park...
maltedfalcon
Kang wrote::
It was commissioned to be the altarpiece for the chapel of the
San Francesco
Grande. (I see what ya did there JJP - you made an art pun that's also a city clue. Well played)....
Absolutely - No doubt in my mind that is why this picture was chosen. I remember when slappybuns found that it was a very oh wow moment.
MERLIN
hxxp://www.sfcityguides.org/images/guid ... toRose.jpg
gManTexas
Kang wrote::
Just starting to skim gManTexas's Methodology First Edition document (highly recommend) and he cites that Da Vinci's "Virgin on the Rocks" was originally commissioned for a church in Milan. But it wasn't just any church...
From the "did you know" file - as slappybuns pointed out back in 2011 - It was commissioned to be the altarpiece for the chapel of the
San Francesco
Grande. (I see what ya did there JJP - you made an art pun that's also a city clue. Well played)....
hxxp://www.italianrenaissance.org/leona ... the-rocks/
Thanks for the props. One of my goals for putting this together was to collate some of the information in one place since certain info gets lost in the weeds over time.
Jordan
With all this hoax talk I noticed something on the Giuseppe Verdi Monument - could be nothing:
EDIT
- Nevermind that 3 for March, those are the LONG/LAT coordinates
maltedfalcon
Jordan wrote::
With all this hoax talk I noticed something on the Giuseppe Verdi Monument - could be nothing:
EDIT
- Nevermind that 3 for March, those are the LONG/LAT coordinates
that and I am pretty sure the plaque was added when the statue was refurbished
also I think the date on the plaque is wrong...
Jordan
maltedfalcon wrote::
that and I am pretty sure the plaque was added when the statue was refurbished
also I think the date on the plaque is wrong...
Ah, thanks for the info!
Jordan
Reporter claims a cable company with ground penetrating radar knows where it is. States this near 2:17 in the video. Can we find out where they have been working?
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/03/04/treasure-hunters-san-francisco-golden-gate-park/
He also says if you have any ideas on the location he will get dig permits for you.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
that and I am pretty sure the plaque was added when the statue was refurbished
also I think the date on the plaque is wrong...
1914?
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
1914?
yea off the top of my head. I think the plaque was off by a year or so...
Choice
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/g ... 20111.html
Dominick
I think the key for this image is the stem of the table outlined in blue. The table with the watch and the rose. I am not convinced it is the outline of a cable car. I think it is a real land mark that might be gone now. It is too specific a shape.
Choice
Dominick wrote::
I think the key for this image is the stem of the table outlined in blue. The table with the watch and the rose. I am not convinced it is the outline of a cable car. I think it is a real land mark that might be gone now. It is too specific a shape.
Eventhough I haven't found an exact match, the rose granite base of this statue has some resemblances.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1094&start=1061
MERLIN
Dominick wrote::
I think the key for this image is the stem of the table outlined in blue. The table with the watch and the rose. I am not convinced it is the outline of a cable car. I think it is a real land mark that might be gone now. It is too specific a shape.
At one time I thought maybe it was a lighthouse .
Dominick
MERLIN wrote::
At one time I thought maybe it was a lighthouse .
I have looked at light houses, windmills, signs, light poles, and totem poles. I keep wondering if it is the "Giant pole" or if it is just a small garden light or the base of a drinking fountain. I think whatever it was might be gone. The park has had so many restorations sense 1982. It has to be a real thing in my mind. It is like the buildings in images 4,5, 10, and 12.
Choice
Dominick wrote::
I have looked at light houses, windmills, signs, light poles, and totem poles. I keep wondering if it is the "Giant pole" or if it is just a small garden light or the base of a drinking fountain. I think whatever it was might be gone. The park has had so many restorations sense 1982. It has to be a real thing in my mind. It is like the buildings in images 4,5, 10, and 12.
One should not assume that the location is GGP and nowhere else in the city.
The dragon may depict Lombard st. so anywhere around Lombard may be of interest i.e. Russian hill and Telegraph hill.
Dominick
Choice wrote::
One should not assume that the location is GGP and nowhere else in the city.
The dragon may depict Lombard st. so anywhere around Lombard may be of interest i.e. Russian hill and Telegraph hill.
You are absolutely right. I just feel that there is other things in the image pointing to the park. But all of it is loose. I just started researching the Triumph of Light pedestal. I love the research as much as the hunt. I have learned so much about San Fran. When I go to the park with family we walk the popular theories and talk about the images and the book. Great fun.
Spiritr
Dominick wrote::
When I go to the park with family we walk the popular theories and talk about the images and the book. Great fun.
me too, everytime me and my family drove thru Crossover Dr, I'll talk about how the image and verse mislead everyone to believe this is the correct park
Choice
"Winding" spiral stem of the rose; winding spring for a winding alarm clock.
Spiral also spinning or turning symbol on the round table.
Top part of the table's pedestal is silhouette of a cable car.
Bottom part of the pedestal looks like a smoke stack.
I think all these clues point to a cable car turntable.
Here's a wikipedia description of cable car museum, 1201 Mason. (Masonic reference?!)
“Exterior of the Ferries and Cliff House Railway Co. Building Constructed in 1887. Houses both the cable car winding station, engines, and museum. The smoke stack in the rear was damaged in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, restored then soon decommissioned when steam power was replaced with electrical power at the winding station.”
Also checkout the walkthrough link:
hxxp://tinyurl.com/y39ef8bl
Here are 3 wooden posts near giant step:
hxxp://tinyurl.com/yye7ozb6
Dominick
Spiritr wrote::
me too, everytime me and my family drove thru Crossover Dr, I'll talk about how the image and verse mislead everyone to believe this is the correct park
You haven't found anything.
Choice
Dominick, get your shovel and go get it!
Dominick
Choice wrote::
Dominick, get your shovel and go get it!
Your theory, your dig. Good luck. I will stay in the park.
Goonie68
IF someone with an original copy of the book is willing to help me out with an observation in the image. The area in the image i am referring to is behind the table and leg to the open dark space to the right of the Gal. Does the dark area look like it is lighter or a comparison to chalk that is smeared on a Blackboard? I cant tell if the scans created this fading of color when scanned.
upload
Choice
Yes they are lighter like acid washed or worn off fabric.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Yes they are lighter like acid washed or worn off fabric.
Would possibly look like smeared chalk on a blackboard?
Choice
It's a bit foggy! Here are a couple of different exposures.
https://imgur.com/a/1te8SuJ
https://imgur.com/a/bhPVRQZ
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
It's a bit foggy! Here are a couple of different exposures.
https://imgur.com/a/1te8SuJ
https://imgur.com/a/bhPVRQZ
Thanks!
Jordan
maltedfalcon wrote::
I am pretty sure the plaque was added when the statue was refurbished
also I think the date on the plaque is wrong...
Are you sure? When was the statue was refurbished? What is the date (1914) wrong about? Sorry not trying to beat a dead horse but I've been seeing more:
Choice
So walking towards 1201 Mason, at 1000 Mason you are here:
https://tinyurl.com/y9j3pak5
Choice
Here are some correlations between the symbols and the image in the same general area:
Grace cathedral (cross + square/triangle symbol)
1000 California St. (2 mirrored half-circles)
1000 Mason St. (2 triangles + 4 circles)
Dominick
It all seems too complicated compared to Chicago and Cleveland.
Eastcoast
Dominick wrote::
It all seems too complicated compared to Chicago and Cleveland.
Agree, I'd say the two finds covered the range of difficulty as well so majority should be comparable with only one or two outliers
Choice
Or the easiest and most specific ones got solved first and more vague with little landmark clues remain.
Dominick
Or, all the specific details in the images are gone. I know that Golden Gate Park has changed A LOT in 37 years. There was a pretty major earthquake. There are new buildings, walkways, and plants. I have been focusing on finding old photos. This is very hard. There are not a lot of public photos from the 1980s.
mysteriousnesss
Has anyone ever considered the pull up bars over by the polo field to be representative of "high posts are three"? I know the Japanese translation specified that these posts were made of wood. They have also been there since at least the 70's according to a few different sources. I couldn't find any mention of them while doing a thread search so I figured I'd mention it. I'm new to this puzzle and spend most of my time on Boston but I thought this might be somewhat helpful. They're located below the read arrow in the second picture.
gManTexas
Dominick wrote::
Or, all the specific details in the images are gone. I know that Golden Gate Park has changed A LOT in 37 years. There was a pretty major earthquake. There are new buildings, walkways, and plants. I have been focusing on finding old photos. This is very hard. There are not a lot of public photos from the 1980s.
I would go through this entire thread. People have posted both photos and resources for finding old information. Not to mention, many theories over time.
mysteriousnesss
Here's another interesting one. Across from those bars on the other edge of the polo field is a leg stretch exercise station that looks rather old. Maybe it represents the giant step?
gManTexas
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Here's another interesting one. Across from those bars on the other edge of the polo field is a leg stretch exercise station that looks rather old. Maybe it represents the giant step?
LOL, look at the Google header in your image. Guess you aren't so mysteriousness, lol.
mysteriousnesss
Pretty sure Andrew wong is just who took the panoramic photo I'm posting.
gManTexas
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Pretty sure Andrew wong is just who took the panoramic photo I'm posting.
Ahh, so you are indeed mysterious.
Getting back to your posts. I hate the idea of including playground equipment in these puzzles, but there is some evidence BP may have done just that in Milwaukee and Houston.
mysteriousnesss
Well it's not exactly playground equipment. It seems like golden gate park is littered with various work out stations and they almost follow a path through the park.
gManTexas
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Well it's not exactly playground equipment. It seems like golden gate park is littered with various work out stations and they almost follow a path through the park.
Similar though, and stuff with not a lot of permanency.
mysteriousnesss
From the little information I can find it's called the Perrier Parcourse and was built around 1978.
strike13
gManTexas wrote::
Similar though, and stuff with not a lot of permanency.
The use of playground equipment is better than trees I think, more permanency.
Dominick
unless it was a tree we were meant to use. Everything has equal value if it was there 37 years ago.
Choice
mysteriousnesss wrote::
Here's another interesting one. Across from those bars on the other edge of the polo field is a leg stretch exercise station that looks rather old. Maybe it represents the giant step?
If you're considering the polo field as giant pole then logically the giant step must be equally giant.
This would give you two options: either the giant step is a sheer drop or cliff very close, or the location is the length of the polo field away.
mysteriousnesss
I'm not making any assumptions here. I'm relatively new to this image/verse and only really started looking into it last year. I'm just putting what I find out there for others to explore. I don't expect to find myself in San Francisco any time soon. I only brought this up because after the Japanese translations came out it became pretty clear that Sutro Tower was not the "high posts are three" that BP was talking about. Thus I thought it might be interesting to explore other options. I just noticed today that some of the disputed symbols around the dragon could be representative of work out equipment. The course has a balance beam as well as rings and a chin up bar. Each station is also numbered. I understand that these were probably not meant to stand the test of time but it appears that they have been there and were maintained since 1978.
mysteriousnesss
I guess what I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt for someone local to go out and take a look in order to determine if this is in any way important. Since the fake casque was unearthed I figured it might be time to switch things up a bit and take a look from a new perspective.
Choice
Great initiative Mys.
BTW these are all Verse 7 related posts.
mysteriousnesss
Choice wrote::
Great initiative Mys.
BTW these are all Verse 7 related posts.
My apologies. I was only posting on this thread because it was both higher up and because my goal was to see if anything I posted could elicit any image matches.
Choice
Since pearl is birthstone of June and Juno is goddess of marriage, is she wearing anything that resembles a traditional wedding dress?
I know Chinese like red and gold for good luck.
Dominick
I mean, you can cut up the picture in to basic shapes and find basic shapes anywhere. The bottom of the dress is a right angle so any square could be a clue. The references in the solved images are clear. The focus should be historical photos from 1980s.
Dominick
Choice wrote::
Great initiative Mys.
BTW these are all Verse 7 related posts.
Are people using a different verse for this image? I would like to know what people think.
Choice
Last time I checked people are using V5, 6, 7 and 10 for I1.
Spiritr
representing club V10 here~
bbi
Spiritr wrote::
representing club V10 here~
Which line or wording ties V10 to image 1 for you Spirtr?
Hirudiniforme
bbi wrote::
Which city ties V10 to image 1 for you Spirtr?
FTFY
Spiritr
bbi wrote::
Which line or wording ties V10 to image 1 for you Spirtr?
Hirudiniforme wrote::
FTFY
first 12 lines, and the last 9 lines
words that ties to image...
"v" and "B."
The City That Knows How
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Are people using a different verse for this image? I would like to know what people think.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that anyone who is trying to solve the SF puzzle using a Verse other than #7 (with Image #1) is wasting their time. Actually, I can speak for at least two others closely associated with the puzzle, at least anecdotally. In over 17 hours of podcasts, neither host (nor any of their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Are people using a different verse for this image?
I
would like to know what people think.
I
can't speak for anyone else, but
I
think that anyone who is trying to solve the SF puzzle using a Verse other than #7 (with Image #1) is wasting their time. Actually,
I
can speak for at least two others closely associated with the puzzle, at least anecdotally. In over 17 hours
of
podcasts, neither host (nor any
of
their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
JamesV
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
In over 17 hours of podcasts, neither host (nor any of their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
Renovator, I love your work, and I especially enjoy the podcasts, but I have to respectfully disagree. I submitted that same question via Facebook to be asked on the podcast's SF episode, and MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure of the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
Even with all the crazy "post-Expedition Unknown" theories being thrown around (wolves!!), I'm still cautious about being too closed-minded with this puzzle. Clinging too tightly to the "commonly accepted" connections is going to get us the same "commonly accepted" results... which is to say, no casques.
JamesV
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
In over 17 hours
of
podcasts, neither host (nor any
of
their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
Renovator,
I
love your work, and
I
especially enjoy the podcasts, but
I
have to respectfully disagree.
I
submitted that same question via Facebook to be asked on the podcast's SF episode, and MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure
of
the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
Even with all the crazy "post-Expedition Unknown" theories being thrown around (wolves!!),
I
'm still cautious about being too closed-minded with this puzzle. Clinging too tightly to the "commonly accepted" connections is going to get us the same "commonly accepted" results... which is to say, no casques.
Choice
Sorry to interrupt but could the rose be a hint to dali's meditative rose? If so that may point us to Buddha statue and moon bridge and koi ponds.
Hirudiniforme
Choice wrote::
Sorry to interrupt but could the rose be a hint to dali's meditative rose? If so that may point us to Buddha statue and moon bridge and koi ponds.
Absolutely! Why not?
BINGO
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I
can't speak for anyone else, but
I
think that anyone who is trying to solve the SF puzzle using a Verse other than #7 (with Image #1) is wasting their time. Actually,
I
can speak for at least two others closely associated with the puzzle, at least anecdotally. In over 17 hours
of
podcasts, neither host (nor any
of
their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
What do you say we go fire up that slow spill thread and finish what got started?
I
’d love to see how you guys thread all
of
the initial steps together.
Honest statement.
BINGO
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that anyone who is trying to solve the SF puzzle using a Verse other than #7 (with Image #1) is wasting their time. Actually, I can speak for at least two others closely associated with the puzzle, at least anecdotally. In over 17 hours of podcasts, neither host (nor any of their guests for that matter), ever seriously suggested that the commonly accepted Image/Verse/City connections are incorrect. Not once.
What do you say we go fire up that slow spill thread and finish what got started?
I’d love to see how you guys thread all of the initial steps together.
Honest statement.
MERLIN
BINGO wrote::
What do you say we go fire up that slow spill thread and finish what got started?
I
’d love to see how you guys thread all
of
the initial steps together.
Honest statement.
Everybody just stay calm...
https://
i
.ytimg.com/vi/WVHscEurAP0/hqdefault.jpg
MERLIN
BINGO wrote::
What do you say we go fire up that slow spill thread and finish what got started?
I’d love to see how you guys thread all of the initial steps together.
Honest statement.
Everybody just stay calm...
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WVHscEurAP0/hqdefault.jpg
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Renovator,
I
love your work, and
I
especially enjoy the podcasts,
Unknown:
MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure
of
the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
Unknown:
Clinging too tightly to the "commonly accepted" connections is going to get us the same "commonly accepted" results... which is to say, no casques.
To be clear,
I
have nothing to do with the podcasts, so
I
'm not sure the compliment is intended for me. But
I
enjoyed them as well, so we have that in common.
And yet, to the best
of
my knowledge, Matt hasn't used anything but Verse 7 for the last 10+ years in his quest to find the SF casque, to date unsuccessfully. Do you think for one minute that he thinks his lack
of
success is because he is using the wrong verse?
Digging up a casque is hard enough if you have a general idea
of
where it's supposed to be. Just ask the Chicago Boys, or Andy and Brian. Under any other scenario, it's almost impossible. And we have hundreds, if not thousands
of
empty holes to prove it.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Renovator, I love your work, and I especially enjoy the podcasts,
Unknown:
MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure of the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
Unknown:
Clinging too tightly to the "commonly accepted" connections is going to get us the same "commonly accepted" results... which is to say, no casques.
To be clear, I have nothing to do with the podcasts, so I'm not sure the compliment is intended for me. But I enjoyed them as well, so we have that in common.
And yet, to the best of my knowledge, Matt hasn't used anything but Verse 7 for the last 10+ years in his quest to find the SF casque, to date unsuccessfully. Do you think for one minute that he thinks his lack of success is because he is using the wrong verse?
Digging up a casque is hard enough if you have a general idea of where it's supposed to be. Just ask the Chicago Boys, or Andy and Brian. Under any other scenario, it's almost impossible. And we have hundreds, if not thousands of empty holes to prove it.
Hirudiniforme
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
To be clear,
I
have nothing to do with the podcasts...
Weak. You could have at least said "Renner's podcasts."
Hirudiniforme
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
To be clear, I have nothing to do with the podcasts...
Weak. You could have at least said "Renner's podcasts."
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
And yet, to the best of my knowledge, Matt hasn't used anything but Verse 7 for the last 10+ years in his quest to find the SF casque, to date unsuccessfully. Do you think for one minute that he thinks his lack of success is because he is using the wrong verse?
Actually I am always going back and reviewing theories against other verses, for SF notably 6, but I am constantly checking other verses just in case.
I look at it as I have not been unsuccessful, because I have successfully ruled out so many possibilities, ever slowly narrowing the search.
maltedfalcon
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
And yet, to the best
of
my knowledge, Matt hasn't used anything but Verse 7 for the last 10+ years in his quest to find the SF casque, to date unsuccessfully. Do you think for one minute that he thinks his lack
of
success is because he is using the wrong verse?
Actually
I
am always going back and reviewing theories against other verses, for SF notably 6, but
I
am constantly checking other verses just in case.
I
look at it as
I
have not been unsuccessful, because
I
have successfully ruled out so many possibilities, ever slowly narrowing the search.
maltedfalcon
Hirudiniforme wrote::
Weak. You could have at least said "Renner's podcasts."
Does Renner have podcasts?
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
because
I
have successfully ruled out so many possibilities, ever slowly narrowing the search.
The number
of
possibilities that you have ruled out is a rounding error compared to the number
of
possibilities. It's like trying to successfully complete a crossword puzzle by randomly inserting letters, and thinking that you are close because you have managed, by chance, to make a few words.
But, to each his own
I
guess.
I
stand by my original comment.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
because I have successfully ruled out so many possibilities, ever slowly narrowing the search.
The number of possibilities that you have ruled out is a rounding error compared to the number of possibilities. It's like trying to successfully complete a crossword puzzle by randomly inserting letters, and thinking that you are close because you have managed, by chance, to make a few words.
But, to each his own I guess. I stand by my original comment.
burnstyle
JamesV wrote::
Renovator, I love your work, and I especially enjoy the podcasts, but I have to respectfully disagree. I submitted that same question via Facebook to be asked on the podcast's SF episode, and MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure of the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
He's right. no one can be sure until a casque has been dug up. In the same vein no one can be sure Jimmy Carter isn't an alien lizard in Disguise until an autopsy is performed.
Both are possible.... yet they are both unlikely. However, I would love to be proven wrong.
JM actually used the SF verse in NOLA once to illustrate how verses could be matched to any city if you stretch them far enough... I can't speak for him but I think he would agree. Possible but unlikely.
Choice
Oh cool, another analogy. Let me write this down. It goes on the list on top of Matt's wright brothers and just below Gump's box of chocolate.
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Oh cool, another analogy. Let me write this down. It goes on the list on top of Matt's wright brothers and just below Gump's box of chocolate.
Life is like a box of alien lizard Jimmy Carters....
drunknerds
JamesV wrote::
Renovator, I love your work, and I especially enjoy the podcasts, but I have to respectfully disagree. I submitted that same question via Facebook to be asked on the podcast's SF episode, and MaltedFalcon did admit that nobody could really be sure of the correct Image/Verse pairing until a casque was dug up.
Even with all the crazy "post-Expedition Unknown" theories being thrown around (wolves!!), I'm still cautious about being too closed-minded with this puzzle. Clinging too tightly to the "commonly accepted" connections is going to get us the same "commonly accepted" results... which is to say, no casques.
Well stated, but I think the opposite is true. Not enough people have adhered to the rules of the original two casques and the research done on Q4T because it doesn't make them feel like a special snowflake puzzle genius. The methods for the found casks clearly show that having boots-on-the-ground images is key to solving the puzzles, yet rarely does someone go out and take a bunch of pictures of little-seen areas near where image matches abound. What is between the utility box and the freeway in 2C Charlesgate? Where do the tall palm trees/statue palms shadows fall at 4 PM in White Point Gardens in the appropriate month? To this day I have no idea what is between the Elizabethan Gardens and the crumbled gate.
Rather than build off the decades-long work of others, people have dismissed it and tried to solve the puzzle using Google Streetview, even though to this day that wouldn't work for Chicago. Plus, the stubborn "well maybe you haven't found it because you're doing it all wrong" demeanor of a lot of the newer hunters has chased off the veteran researchers.
This could have gone so right: A flood of people from EU taking pictures all over the areas where it might be could have led to multiple solves. But instead people just want to pick a location that feels good to them and cherry pick info to "support" their claim, or try to solve the whole puzzle from scratch without first taking the time to read through the entire q4t threads for their image and verse to see exactly where the bar is set so they can discard their new theory if it doesn't raise it.
Case in point: New Orleans. People have been all over the place trying to pair verses with it, and coming up with bizarre new solving strategies like magnifying it and seeing imaginary figures in the brushstrokes. But JM, Brett Zingler, and Burnstyle just went to where the best image match was, poked around the areas where it could be seen, and found an amazingly striking image match in the form of a weird column.
Choice
Spiritr wrote::
words that ties to image...
"v" and "B."
Here's another connection to "v" and "B." :
• Siddhartha has 3 vowels and sounds like Sidd-Hard-a
• Island of Buddha
• Peace lantern a good match for “V”
• JJP’s signature may be the base of the Peace lantern and a clue
• Pearl in the image could be the bird’s eye view of the lantern. Notice the halo around the pearl is not round but has multiple curved sides similar to the top of the lantern. It’s color is also verdigris.
• The round handle on the table leg could be a clue to a teapot or tea garden
• That pond looks like a genie lamp
burnstyle
drunknerds wrote::
To this day I have no idea what is between the Elizabethan Gardens and the crumbled gate.
There is a walkthrough of the whole park on 12treasures.
Choice
Can anyone manipulate/enhance JJP's signature better?
Looking at you Matt!
I think Jude part of the signature after J starts with p.
peace?
I looked at the original edition image under mag glass and it does look like p after J.
gManTexas
drunknerds wrote::
Well stated, but I think the opposite is true. Not enough people have adhered to the rules of the original two casques and the research done on Q4T because it doesn't make them feel like a special snowflake puzzle genius. The methods for the found casks clearly show that having boots-on-the-ground images is key to solving the puzzles, yet rarely does someone go out and take a bunch of pictures of little-seen areas near where image matches abound. What is between the utility box and the freeway in 2C Charlesgate? Where do the tall palm trees/statue palms shadows fall at 4 PM in White Point Gardens in the appropriate month? To this day I have no idea what is between the Elizabethan Gardens and the crumbled gate.
Rather than build off the decades-long work of others, people have dismissed it and tried to solve the puzzle using Google Streetview, even though to this day that wouldn't work for Chicago. Plus, the stubborn "well maybe you haven't found it because you're doing it all wrong" demeanor of a lot of the newer hunters has chased off the veteran researchers.
This could have gone so right: A flood of people from EU taking pictures all over the areas where it might be could have led to multiple solves. But instead people just want to pick a location that feels good to them and cherry pick info to "support" their claim, or try to solve the whole puzzle from scratch without first taking the time to read through the entire q4t threads for their image and verse to see exactly where the bar is set so they can discard their new theory if it doesn't raise it.
Case in point: New Orleans. People have been all over the place trying to pair verses with it, and coming up with bizarre new solving strategies like magnifying it and seeing imaginary figures in the brushstrokes. But JM, Brett Zingler, and Burnstyle just went to where the best image match was, poked around the areas where it could be seen, and found an amazingly striking image match in the form of a weird column.
I have been to a number of the sites and taken a buttload of photos and video, and even back tracked and crisscrossed looking for things that stand out. I ran out of free cloud storage after posting everything for Milwaukee, and I'm not sure that I want to pay to share everything else.
When you say "adhered to the rules of the original two casques", what exactly are you saying?
burnstyle
gManTexas wrote::
I ran out of free cloud storage after posting everything for Milwaukee, and I'm not sure that I want to pay to share everything else.
I can give you an account on 12treasures and you can post as many images as you want. Ill pay for the storage.
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
Can anyone manipulate/enhance JJP's signature better?
Looking at you Matt!
I think Jude part of the signature after J starts with p.
peace?
I looked at the original edition image under mag glass and it does look like p after J.
I cant enhance it more... but that particular signature looks like this:
He has used it on a few other paintings... the chicago one for instance.
gManTexas
burnstyle wrote::
I can give you an account on 12treasures and you can post as many images as you want. Ill pay for the storage.
I Emailed you.
Choice
Yes, I've compared his signatures. However my point is it looks like he's hiding a message in the signature. I clearly see a p instead of u in Jude.
BTW the signature on the castle-hat painting is not in the book but on the painting on his website that has been down for awhile.
hxxp://www.johnjudepalencar.com/home.htm
fox
drunknerds wrote::
Well stated, but I think the opposite is true. Not enough people have adhered to the rules of the original two casques and the research done on Q4T because it doesn't make them feel like a special snowflake puzzle genius. The methods for the found casks clearly show that having boots-on-the-ground images is key to solving the puzzles, yet rarely does someone go out and take a bunch of pictures of little-seen areas near where image matches abound. What is between the utility box and the freeway in 2C Charlesgate? Where do the tall palm trees/statue palms shadows fall at 4 PM in White Point Gardens in the appropriate month? To this day I have no idea what is between the Elizabethan Gardens and the crumbled gate.
Rather than build off the decades-long work of others, people have dismissed it and tried to solve the puzzle using Google Streetview, even though to this day that wouldn't work for Chicago. Plus, the stubborn "well maybe you haven't found it because you're doing it all wrong" demeanor of a lot of the newer hunters has chased off the veteran researchers.
This could have gone so right: A flood of people from EU taking pictures all over the areas where it might be could have led to multiple solves. But instead people just want to pick a location that feels good to them and cherry pick info to "support" their claim, or try to solve the whole puzzle from scratch without first taking the time to read through the entire q4t threads for their image and verse to see exactly where the bar is set so they can discard their new theory if it doesn't raise it.
Case in point: New Orleans. People have been all over the place trying to pair verses with it, and coming up with bizarre new solving strategies like magnifying it and seeing imaginary figures in the brushstrokes. But JM, Brett Zingler, and Burnstyle just went to where the best image match was, poked around the areas where it could be seen, and found an amazingly striking image match in the form of a weird column.
AMEN
fox
Choice wrote::
Yes, I've compared his signatures. However my point is it looks like he's hiding a message in the signature. I clearly see a p instead of u in Jude.
BTW the signature on the castle-hat painting is not in the book but on the painting on his website that has been down for awhile.
hxxp://www.johnjudepalencar.com/home.htm
Hiding messages in his signature? Oh my
Choice
fox wrote::
Hiding messages in his signature? Oh my
It may be that JJP just felt like it to sign only image 1 with his full signature IN THE BOOK that happened to be in the exact location and shape that the base of a lantern would be. I just thought it's worth mentioning. Also irregularity in Jude part of his signature is interesting too.
All this set aside it seems to me that image one with all the half moon shapes and praying hand/meditation cliff shapes may be a good fit with verse 10 with all the references I mentioned in my last couple of posts.
So the starting point may be the old De Young Museum that had half moon arched front entrance. In it's shadow or next to it is Japanese garden. Find Buddha statue and his raised arm points to a narrow path, so someone local should scout the area.
Google map has a very limited and inconsistent path walkthrough but here are a few points of interest:
Buddha
https://tinyurl.com/yyknat4q
Moon Bridge
https://tinyurl.com/y5x7jzck
Pagoda
https://tinyurl.com/y6zytz63
Peace Lantern
https://tinyurl.com/y5d9at87
bbi
Choice wrote::
Peace Lantern
https://tinyurl.com/y5d9at87
I think someone else a while back had that same thought about the lantern (may have been Kang?) as it also appears to have the JJP initials on it:
Choice
Kang mentioned that JJP's full signature is present in image 3 at the bottom of the pedestal area. I do see something faint there that has the same outline i.e. straight line at the bottom of writing but can't make it out.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7341&p=144385&hilit=+signature#p144385
Choice
Now all you need to find is a giant pole and step that doesn't involve jumping off a cliff!
Choice
bbi wrote::
... as it also appears to have the JJP initials on it
You could move that 2nd J over a bit and add the P.
Doesn't that picket fence gate look like the wooden version of Chicago gate?
https://tinyurl.com/y5gkvz3k
Choice
So this may be the two branches of V
V for peace
Kang
bbi wrote::
I think someone else a while back had that same thought about the lantern (may have been Kang?) as it also appears to have the JJP initials on it.
Indeed I have mentioned it. Though not sure if I did here. Above is my take on it. Slight enhancement to bring out the signature a bit more. I'm no expert on his signature, but the swoop off the end of the 'r' didn't seem to appear on any other examples I could find. I thought that odd and wondered why. Until I saw the lantern. Seems like it could be a stylized match to the table icon - with the signature as the base. (The table support also may appear to have a tea pot in it which would make sense with the lantern being in the tea garden).
Just my opinion. No angry letters please...
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
But JM, Brett Zingler, and Burnstyle just went to where the best image match was, poked around the areas where it could be seen, and found an amazingly striking image match in the form of a weird column.
Scoreboard.
BINGO
I'll ask the question because I honestly don't know the correct answer.
Is Bret the guy who created the thread last year with a NOLA solution? The one that contained pics with the match to the columns that were promptly removed? Then, if I recall, the thread was turned into a meat smoking recipe conversation.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Is Bret the guy who created the thread last year with a NOLA solution?
Which one? By my count, there are at least 5 people who have claimed to know exactly where the casque is in New Orleans in the last year alone. Which is only a problem because by my reconning, the only thing all five places have in common is that they are all in New Orleans.
I think Bret posted here as roughdraft274. The thread he started is entitled "I Believe I've Solved New Orleans" and is currently at the bottom of Page 6 of this forum. The pictures of which you speak are on Page 9 of that thread. His theory, if I'm not mistaken, is what led JM and George to explore that patch of land next to Gallier Hall (across from Lafayette Square) and where George found the bits of plexiglass and ceramic.
Hope that helps.
BINGO
That was the thread I was speaking of. The pics may be back, but I vividly remember them disappearing. Then the pulled pork convo began.
Since this was a scoreboard situation, I just wanted to make sure Roughdraft got his rightful credit. I have to admit, that was a pretty cool find when it started to unfold.
Choice
Durian wrote::
So we have in this one location:
1. A reversed "G" and "h"
Here's something to consider: The theme of her robe is asian. You can see the arched gate Paifang in Chinese or Torii in Japanese right below the pearl.
Ghirardelli is certainly a San Francisco icon; so reversed Gh would be an automatic connection.
Lets just suppose the location is Hagiwara Garden and you want to insert a hint into the image. You could put H and G on top of the arch but what's the fun of that!
How about revered GH for a bit of misdirection?
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
Here's something to consider: The theme of her robe is asian. You can see the arched gate Paifang in Chinese or Torii in Japanese right below the pearl.
Ghirardelli is certainly a San Francisco icon; so reversed Gh would be an automatic connection.
Lets just suppose the location is Hagiwara Garden and you want to insert a hint into the image. You could put H and G on top of the arch but what's the fun of that!
How about revered GH for a bit of misdirection?
Although BP seems to have always used upper case for proper names so, why would he use a lower case h for Hagiwara?
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
Although BP seems to have always used upper case for proper names so, why would he use a lower case h for Hagiwara?
As I mentioned, for a bit of misdirection. And it would be way too obvious clue if he did use H.
Choice
The theory is that since we read from left to right -- instead of writing "H G" that would be way too obvious, he reversed the "G h" to show the correct position of the letters as a clue to switch the G and h. As a misdirection to Ghirardelli he made the "H" lower case.
As to sweet smell, you're making the assumption that V7 is matched to I1. That is not settled.
BTW Rose Garden is right next door across the JFK Dr. for sweet smell.
Choice
I had a similar theory when I was a baby that got me to a different location.
Even to Coit tower and the counter clockwise running cars around the statue.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&hilit=counter+clockwise+running&start=2602
Choice
A few thoughts, welcome to chime in.
Both fingers pointing towards the horizontal line on both sides of the image.
So I connect those lines that look like the top of a wall or platform.
Then the top part of the image will look like she's sitting in a
crossed
leg position.
Rose is similar to Dali's "Meditative Rose".
Leaves are similar to Bodhi tree leaves.
Triratna, ying yang and moon bridge with it's reflection present in the image.
Dominick
If that is a strawberry under her arms and that is a reference to Strawberry Hill and her arms are Crossover Drive, than where the dragons open hand is matches the Great Meadow. The dragons closed hand is over Shakespeare's Garden. The pearl at her neck is the same distance as the closed dragon hand. If you fold the image at the arms the pearl is in Shakespeare's Garden.
I am just throwing out ideas. I want the real San Fran one found to disprove Gerald.
gManTexas
Dominick wrote::
If that is a strawberry under her arms and that is a reference to Strawberry Hill and her arms are Crossover Drive, than where the dragons open hand is matches the Great Meadow. The dragons closed hand is over Shakespeare's Garden. The pearl at her neck is the same distance as the closed dragon hand. If you fold the image at the arms the pearl is in Shakespeare's Garden.
I am just throwing out ideas. I want the real San Fran one found to disprove Gerald.
I like your zeal, but much of this has already been covered many times over the years. What we need is people to go take photos and videos to see if anything new shakes loose. Are you local?
Dominick
I like your zeal, but much of this has already been covered many times over the years. What we need is people to go take photos and videos to see if anything new shakes loose. Are you local?[/quote]
Bay area, but not the city. Vacaville.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I want the real San Fran one found to disprove Gerald.
While finding the authentic casque would be the ultimate proof, I don't think we really need more evidence to conclude that Dr.Gay is perpetrating a hoax. As has been shown, the Forum is pretty good at sniffing out fakes and frauds.
Dominick
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
While finding the authentic casque would be the ultimate proof, I don't think we really need more evidence to conclude that Dr.Gay is perpetrating a hoax. As has been shown, the Forum is pretty good at sniffing out fakes and frauds.
I disagree. He has stated that he believe his casque is real and the only one who can prove him wrong is dead. He is already using this "find" for his benefit. Byron is the only one that buried the casque. We can talk to as many people as we can who knew him, worked with him, and worked on the book but it doesn't unless we are told where the casque was buried by some one who knows. Gerald can say he found it. Gerald is creating his own reality.
Choice
Dominick wrote::
I disagree. He has stated that he believe his casque is real and the only one who can prove him wrong is dead.
His logic is flawed. The maker of the cask is alive and well and she already dismissed Gay's cask as a fake.
Why are we still talking about that guy? To steal a line from Mr. Wonderful: "he's dead to me!"
Soooo... here's another layout correlation with image:
MERLIN
This looks like the pearl from the image -
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/H2JMJ7/aerial ... H2JMJ7.jpg
bbi
For any GGP'ers, this map is 2/3 years out from the ideal date (1981/82) but this 1984 Map & Guide to Golden Gate Park is pretty detailed, maybe one of you already have a copy. But I've just quickly scanned it.
I know that GGP has soccer fields but when I saw the soccer fields in this map and their location at the end of the park I couldn't help but think of the double "D" (half circles located at the bottom of the dress). Also, and I believe it has been discussed before but I know very little about American football (as I'm originally from the UK and I like football football). But are field goals worth 3 points? ball over the high posts, 3 points? Sorry if thats not helpful, just got me thinking when I saw this map and its illustrations of things
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Right back to verse13, Valkyrie's... Ravens....Native Indian's.... arrrhgghhh
Choice
Valuable key rise, win dough
burnstyle
bbi wrote::
For any GGP'ers, this map is 2/3 years out from the ideal date
Do you mind if I post that on 12treasures?
bbi
burnstyle wrote::
Do you mind if I post that on 12treasures?
Sure, no problem. Anything to help.
bbi
Choice wrote::
Valuable key rise, win dough
Thats good
I've been looking and thinking like this at everyday objects lately. Driving me crazy.
Dominick
bbi wrote::
For any GGP'ers, this map is 2/3 years out from the ideal date (1981/82) but this 1984 Map & Guide to Golden Gate Park is pretty detailed, maybe one of you already have a copy. But I've just quickly scanned it.
I know that GGP has soccer fields but when I saw the soccer fields in this map and their location at the end of the park I couldn't help but think of the double "D" (half circles located at the bottom of the dress). Also, and I believe it has been discussed before but I know very little about American football (as I'm originally from the UK and I like football football). But are field goals worth 3 points? ball over the high posts, 3 points? Sorry if thats not helpful, just got me thinking when I saw this map and its illustrations of things
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Right back to verse13, Valkyrie's... Ravens....Native Indian's.... arrrhgghhh
Nice find!
Merlot Brougham
bbi wrote::
But are field goals worth 3 points? ball over the high posts, 3 points? Sorry if thats not helpful, just got me thinking when I saw this map and its illustrations of things
I saw nobody answered this part of your post. Yes. Field goals are worth 3 points in gridiron football.
prospector
bbi wrote::
For any GGP'ers, this map is 2/3 years out from the ideal date (1981/82) but this 1984 Map & Guide to Golden Gate Park is pretty detailed, maybe one of you already have a copy. But I've just quickly scanned it.
I know that GGP has soccer fields but when I saw the soccer fields in this map and their location at the end of the park I couldn't help but think of the double "D" (half circles located at the bottom of the dress). Also, and I believe it has been discussed before but I know very little about American football (as I'm originally from the UK and I like football football). But are field goals worth 3 points? ball over the high posts, 3 points? Sorry if thats not helpful, just got me thinking when I saw this map and its illustrations of things
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing
Right back to verse13, Valkyrie's... Ravens....Native Indian's.... arrrhgghhh
Thank you for the map. I have been trying to find high post that are not the Sutro tower. I like your thoughts. I don't know what field goals are worth but goal posts have been touched on before. It is always good to rethink all of the questions raised on this forum. I am planning to go out and dig as soon as I can get away from work. I have already used a probe in a area but I have been thinking I am still off a bit. This is so difficult.
prospector
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I saw nobody answered this part of your post. Yes. Field goals are worth 3 points in gridiron football.
WOO HOO!
bbi
Merlot Brougham wrote::
I saw nobody answered this part of your post. Yes. Field goals are worth 3 points in gridiron football.
Thanks for the clarification Merlot.
Choice
As long as they are wooden posts!
Dominick
Choice wrote::
As long as they are wooden posts!
I am not 100% convinced that they made of wood. BP may have been trying to describe to the Japanese what a "post" is. Not a mail post or a military post more like a wooden post. Or this is a straight up clue that they are made of wood. IDK
mysteriousnesss
I'm not sure if this is anything new but I thought I'd point out something I noticed the other day while trying to make the Chinese connection. The symbol on the left side of the middle section of the image looks pretty similar to this design I noticed inside/outside the Chinese Pavilion in GGP. I know the pavilion was opened in 1981 but do we know with certainty if it was there or not when BP buried the casques?
mysteriousnesss
Never mind. As I'm going back through the posts this has clearly been mentioned before.
Dominick
Welcome to the hunt. I did the same thing.
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
blackwood movie plot
There was (may be still is) a similar looking statue at Old St. Mary's Church in Chinatown.
Rviewer1
Rviewer1 wrote::
This is my solution to image 1.
First off I don’t have the Photoshop skills to make my presentation look slick but I will give this a go. I may even have to use links to photos instead of linking the image in. In the cases where I have used a link you may want to open up a second window and copy and paste the links in the second window because they have you redirect to the image.
About four weeks ago I bought the 1982 edition of the secret. In looking at image 1 I saw a few things that changed my focus. I started looking at the way the rocks were shaped above the barred window. At first they reminded me of brown fence boards but then I changed my search to look for concrete and rock structures. Then a picture was posted on the forum that exactly fit what I was looking for. It was the parapets at the Sutro Heights Park. I realize that Palencar did not paint things exactly the way they really looked but close enough to catch your attention if you are looking in the right place.
I have always liked the cliff house as being a key piece to the puzzle. I won’t go through all of the verse 7 but I will start with this. “Running north, but first across In jewel's direction” In my solution I’m on 19th ave running north onto crossover drive. But first across in jewel’s direction makes me have to break left to Fulton ave heading toward Ocean Beach as that is where the jewel on the lady’s neck is located in image 1 with the overlay of Golden Gate Park. Following the verse of running north I turn right onto the great highway heading north. The verse then says “Is an object Of Twain's attention”. That would be the cliff house. So the question now becomes which version of the cliff house was there in 1981 and where was the giant Totem Pole located at the time. Now that is where I had my aha moment. It all came together. I will show you why. I studied the history of all the different versions of the cliff house. In 1973 the new owners created the cliff house project. What they did was to create the blue cliff house.
First of all I want to let you know that the blue cliff house version was repainted in between 1974 and 1979. But what is important here is that the cliff house project group were really painting what they saw in the natural environment. It was their perception or gestalt of what is and can be seen from the cliff house in its purest form by all of us if we choose to look. It does not need to be any more complicated than that. They were painting the blue ocean, the rocks, the farallon islands, the moon over the islands and the blue sky. I think this perspective fits well with image 1. Is what we are drawn to are the two artists interpretation of the same natural environmental imagery that they were confronted with when they looked out upon the blue pacific from the perspective of the Cliff House/Sutro Heights Park. When I say this I am referring to both Palencar (from photos) and the Cliff house project group. The most important point is that these depictions are both pointing to the same natural beauty that exists no matter which cliff house is there.
Below is a picture of the blue cliff house.
Below is a photo of the farallon islands.
Here is another view from the blue cliff house and the Giant Totem Pole
I’m always keeping an eye on where the giant totem pole is. It’s on the right side of the building close to the tree branch. In reviewing the visual history I have found it in three different places including where it sits today. Copy and past the link into a new browser window and then click on the redirect link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 5519136766
When I was looking for Stone parapets around SF I was looking for something that looked like the ones below. Copy and past the link into a new browser window and then click on the redirect link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 7936272861
While I was looking for stone wall parapets in San Francisco that were similar to those above, someone on the forum posted a picture with exactly what I was looking for. Below is the picture of the stone parapets in Sutro Heights Park. I’m sure you have seen it before but it knocked my sox off because of its location. This is why. If you are going to use a giant pole to guide you in, that pole would need to give you a direction. If you look at the position of the Giant Totem pole in 1981. The faces on the Totem Pole were all angled looking in one direction. If you draw a straight line following their gaze it went up in one Giant Step to the Sutro Heights Park Stone Parapets and across them to Stonewalls door. To see how close the line got to Stonewalls door I will need to put boots on the ground.
You will need to copy and paste the link and this time it should redirect to parapets in Sutro Heights park. Sorry about having you have to do all of this. It really looked good in my word document.
hxxp://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=37.77 ... oto/531244
Now I will finish off the verse. The problem that I have always had was how wide open the verse was with “The Giant Pole, Giant Step” part. How on earth is that supposed to get you to a very specific spot? I had started to move different parts of the verse around. This is how I see the conclusion of the verse:
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept
At stone wall's door
(where)The air smells sweet (I dont really need this line)
Just copy and paste this jpg.
https://i.ibb.co/09pxtcj/Dscf0939.jpg
We also have another piece of the puzzle for Sutro Heights Park in the the Statue of Dianna. Image 1 has a large moon right on top of the Sutro Parapets. In Roman mythology, the name Diana meant “heavenly" or "divine" and was the goddess of the hunt, birthing and the MOON. In addition if you look in on the A’s in the name of Dianna below you will see that they are an identical match the to A on the ladies robe.
Finally what I have is possibly the table in Sutro heights park along with a shadow it casts. Yep, this is another link that you will have to put in the address bar and click the redirect.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 9656736080
I have a lot of work still ahead of me. One curios part to this puzzle is the Stone Walls Door in Sutro heights park. Why did it get built in the first place? At one time was it really a doorway into underneath the structure?
Rviewer1
Rviewer1 wrote::
This is my solution to image 1.
First off I don’t have the Photoshop skills to make my presentation look slick but I will give this a go. I may even have to use links to photos instead of linking the image in. In the cases where I have used a link you may want to open up a second window and copy and paste the links in the second window because they have you redirect to the image.
About four weeks ago I bought the 1982 edition of the secret. In looking at image 1 I saw a few things that changed my focus. I started looking at the way the rocks were shaped above the barred window. At first they reminded me of brown fence boards but then I changed my search to look for concrete and rock structures. Then a picture was posted on the forum that exactly fit what I was looking for. It was the parapets at the Sutro Heights Park. I realize that Palencar did not paint things exactly the way they really looked but close enough to catch your attention if you are looking in the right place.
I have always liked the cliff house as being a key piece to the puzzle. I won’t go through all of the verse 7 but I will start with this. “
Running
north, but first across In jewel's direction” In my solution I’m on 19th ave
running
north onto crossover drive. But first across in jewel’s direction makes me have to break left to Fulton ave heading toward Ocean Beach as that is where the jewel on the lady’s neck is located in image 1 with the overlay of Golden Gate Park. Following the verse of
running
north I turn right onto the great highway heading north. The verse then says “Is an object Of Twain's attention”. That would be the cliff house. So the question now becomes which version of the cliff house was there in 1981 and where was the giant Totem Pole located at the time. Now that is where I had my aha moment. It all came together. I will show you why. I studied the history of all the different versions of the cliff house. In 1973 the new owners created the cliff house project. What they did was to create the blue cliff house.
First of all I want to let you know that the blue cliff house version was repainted in between 1974 and 1979. But what is important here is that the cliff house project group were really painting what they saw in the natural environment. It was their perception or gestalt of what is and can be seen from the cliff house in its purest form by all of us if we choose to look. It does not need to be any more complicated than that. They were painting the blue ocean, the rocks, the farallon islands, the moon over the islands and the blue sky. I think this perspective fits well with image 1. Is what we are drawn to are the two artists interpretation of the same natural environmental imagery that they were confronted with when they looked out upon the blue pacific from the perspective of the Cliff House/Sutro Heights Park. When I say this I am referring to both Palencar (from photos) and the Cliff house project group. The most important point is that these depictions are both pointing to the same natural beauty that exists no matter which cliff house is there.
Below is a picture of the blue cliff house.
Below is a photo of the farallon islands.
Here is another view from the blue cliff house and the Giant Totem Pole
I’m always keeping an eye on where the giant totem pole is. It’s on the right side of the building close to the tree branch. In reviewing the visual history I have found it in three different places including where it sits today. Copy and past the link into a new browser window and then click on the redirect link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 5519136766
When I was looking for Stone parapets around SF I was looking for something that looked like the ones below. Copy and past the link into a new browser window and then click on the redirect link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 7936272861
While I was looking for stone wall parapets in San Francisco that were similar to those above, someone on the forum posted a picture with exactly what I was looking for. Below is the picture of the stone parapets in Sutro Heights Park. I’m sure you have seen it before but it knocked my sox off because of its location. This is why. If you are going to use a giant pole to guide you in, that pole would need to give you a direction. If you look at the position of the Giant Totem pole in 1981. The faces on the Totem Pole were all angled looking in one direction. If you draw a straight line following their gaze it went up in one Giant Step to the Sutro Heights Park Stone Parapets and across them to Stonewalls door. To see how close the line got to Stonewalls door I will need to put boots on the ground.
You will need to copy and paste the link and this time it should redirect to parapets in Sutro Heights park. Sorry about having you have to do all of this. It really looked good in my word document.
hxxp://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=37.77 ... oto/531244
Now I will finish off the verse. The problem that I have always had was how wide open the verse was with “The Giant Pole, Giant Step” part. How on earth is that supposed to get you to a very specific spot? I had started to move different parts of the verse around. This is how I see the conclusion of the verse:
Giant pole
Giant step
To the place
The casque is kept
At stone wall's door
(where)The air smells sweet (I dont really need this line)
Just copy and paste this jpg.
https://i.ibb.co/09pxtcj/Dscf0939.jpg
We also have another piece of the puzzle for Sutro Heights Park in the the Statue of Dianna. Image 1 has a large moon right on top of the Sutro Parapets. In Roman mythology, the name Diana meant “heavenly" or "divine" and was the goddess of the hunt, birthing and the MOON. In addition if you look in on the A’s in the name of Dianna below you will see that they are an identical match the to A on the ladies robe.
Finally what I have is possibly the table in Sutro heights park along with a shadow it casts. Yep, this is another link that you will have to put in the address bar and click the redirect.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 9656736080
I have a lot of work still ahead of me. One curios part to this puzzle is the Stone Walls Door in Sutro heights park. Why did it get built in the first place? At one time was it really a doorway into underneath the structure?
XeroDM
RViewer1...
Why are you rearranging the verse to put the first 2 lines last?
X
Rviewer1
XeroDM wrote::
RViewer1...
Why are you rearranging the verse to put the first 2 lines last?
X
Because it doesn’t have to be linear.
Goonie68
I think this could of been more of an inspiration for the Gal.
There was (may be still is) a similar looking statue at Old St. Mary's Church in Chinatown.
[/quote]
XeroDM
Rviewer1 wrote::
Because it doesn’t have to be linear.
So, I guess my question is why? Why doesn't it have to be linear, and why take those lines and rearrange them? Why not read the whole thing backwards, why not read every second line? What makes those lines so special, or what is telling you to take those lines and put them where you have? Surely it's not just an arbitrary choice? Why would BP require us to rearrange his lines, and if he did require us, when has he told us to do so?
X
Rviewer1
The lines “Giant Pole” and “Giant Step” seemed to vague to get me to an exact location. But when I found a Giant Totem Pole that gave me an exact direction( where the faces were looking ) to a Giant Step that led very close to a literal stone walls door, it became intuitive to move the first line to the last.
XeroDM
Rviewer1 wrote::
The lines “Giant Pole” and “Giant Step” seemed to vague to get me to an exact location. But when I found a Giant Totem Pole that gave me an exact direction( where the faces were looking ) to a Giant Step that led very close to a literal stone walls door, it became intuitive to move the first line to the last.
I guess where I'm going is... be careful of changing the puzzle to suit your theory instead of changing your theory to suit the puzzle.
Otherwise, the possible outcomes exponentially increase. You could take a giant step from Ace is high, anywhere that the air smells sweet, anything to do with education and justice, and the list goes on. It makes more sense to follow in order, or to change order because it's backed up strongly by something in the image or verse itself.
X
Choice
Reverse order to the verse has merit supported by the reversed letters and reverse layout of the dress clock. And since this clock runs from 0 to 7 may be a confirmer of the 8 lines to the verse 7.
Choice
Reviewer1, When was the pole moved? This postcard from 1983 shows it closer to Sutro Heights.
catherwood
Choice wrote::
Reviewer1, When was the pole moved? This postcard from 1983 shows it closer to Sutro Heights.
https://i.imgur.com/3ToGiB5.jpg
From what I can tell, it's been there since the 1950s. Originally it was closer to the Sutro Baths (north of the Cliff House), shortened by storm damage, and later moved. The Cliff House itself has undergone renovation over the decades.
https://www.artandarchitecture-sf.com/t ... house.html
(I'm not sure why you included the other two images. Please just post the URLs without embedding the images.)
Choice
Back of the post card has the date of 1983 and menu from the restaurant of the period has image on top that may be helpful.
Dominick
A rumor started on the wiki that Josh Gates will be digging in San Fran soon. Any one heard about this?
Hammersmith
Dominick wrote::
A rumor started on the wiki that Josh Gates will be digging in San Fran soon. Any one heard about this?
A reporter on KPIX did a story about the hoax and mentioned that someone "assured" him that they know where the casque is buried, but they were under contract with a cable channel so they weren't talking to him. That could be what he was talking about, he didn't give any other details.
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
I think this could of been more of an inspiration for the Gal.
Looking at the gal's mouth you can see she's mouthing something that ends in "O".
She may be Juliet standing on a balcony with railing and arched window.
"Rooo meooo... Rooo meooo"
MERLIN
Choice wrote::
Looking at the gal's mouth you can see she's mouthing something that ends in "O".
She may be Juliet standing on a balcony with railing and arched window.
"Rooo meooo... Rooo meooo"
https://brobible.files.wordpress.com/20 ... y=90&w=650
Dominick
I have never tried to lip read a painting before.
Choice
lol, well her mouth is semi-open. It's somewhat safe to assume that the artist is trying to convey a message.
Doghousereiley
Choice wrote::
lol, well her mouth is semi-open. It's somewhat safe to assume that the artist is trying to convey a message.
no it is not safe to assume that. please stop posting every moronic thought the enters you head
Dominick
That was not nice.
Doghousereiley
Dominick wrote::
That was not nice.
I am truly sorry but he is worse than Josh Cornell in is rapid posting of nonsense
Choice
Everyone is a critic as usual. But if the cask turns out to be behind the Shakespeare wall a lot of people will look like fools.
Dominick
I see nothing wrong with stirring the pot with fresh ideas, specially when a puzzle has been stagnate for decades. Yes, some ideas might seen dumb but they still draw attention to something that some one might have missed. Did I laugh when Choice proposed that the lady in the image was mouthing something? Yes, yes I did. I even posted about it. But I did not insult or demean the poster. I never really looked at the mouth of the lady in detail before. I have now. Did it help, I don't know.
Your negative comment is less helpful then Choices strange post. At leased after reading Choice's post I wanted to look at the image again.
French doctors are faking finds! Lets work together and not insult each other.
Choice
Goldengate wrote::
You live an hour away. Why don't you go and find out?
(Also, others have dug there.)
I originally asked if anyone poked around back there and no one cared to respond. So I assumed it wasn't explored from lack of participation including you. Now why should I go dig there if it's already been dug? Make sense and please don't PM me your vacation pics again like Hannibal Lecter.
Choice
If you're so concerned about my post count then stop trolling me so I don't have to rebuff you and the rest of the frustrated clowns. That probably accounts for half of my posts.
Rviewer1
I may have a chance to buy a 1982 Japanese edition. How much are they worth?
burnstyle
Rviewer1 wrote::
I may have a chance to buy a 1982 Japanese edition. How much are they worth?
The auction for the Japanese copy he is talking about is here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133023500963
No one really knows what they are worth. only 2 have been sold in the US that we know of. they sold for $1,400 for a pair.
Choice
Just buy the American version. Much better price right now. The Japanese one is going to be way high at the end of auction.
hxxp://tinyurl.com/y3nqe96w
hxxp://tinyurl.com/y2pmere9
Rviewer1
Thanks guys. I have an original English 1982 edition. I was just trying to get a Japanese one to. What other languages were they written in. I want a different interpretation of the 3 high posts, Giant Pole,Giant Step and Stone Walls Door why we are at it.
burnstyle
Rviewer1 wrote::
I want a different interpretation of the 3 high posts, Giant Pole,Giant Step and Stone Walls Door why we are at it.
There is a translation of the japanese hints section (which includes all of those) on 12treasures.com
XeroDM
Hey all...
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts as to what the symbols on the shoulders mean? The Circle, Square (her Right shoulder) and Square, Triangle (her Left shoulder).
They are a gaping hole in my theory, and it's annoy the heck out of me.
I have looked into survey marks, hobo code, Numerical code (0, 4, 4, 3), direction (NSEW- renders one illegible order), and using it as a key to work out another code on the image, plus I have searched other people's theories (this part is commonly left undecoded.) I have also investigated these in reverse orders due to the mirrored hG.
There seems to be no connection between the symbols and the verses either, so may be boots on ground contextualised.
All to no avail. Does anyone have any novel ideas outside of the ones already posted by me or others?
X
Rviewer1
Does anyone who has been deep into the San Francisco hunt think there is a possibility that Byron Preiss may not have known that Sutro Heights Park was off limits? I’m a local who put boots on the ground at SHP and studied every page here and have spent a couple hours a day working on some part of this puzzle but yet somehow I missed that it was under the jurisdiction of the NPS. But 2 blocks away GGP was SFPR.
maltedfalcon
Rviewer1 wrote::
Does anyone who has been deep into the San Francisco hunt think there is a possibility that Byron Preiss may not have known that Sutro Heights Park was off limits? I’m a local who put boots on the ground at SHP and studied every page here and have spent a couple hours a day working on some part of this puzzle but yet somehow I missed that it was under the jurisdiction of the NPS. But 2 blocks away GGP was SFPR.
I don't think he would have entered the Presidio at all. and while to this day I cannot imagine him inside the FOY at St. Augustine or in a National Park in Charleston. in the 80s Lands End was wide open and I doubt he would have even thought about it at all.
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
I don't think he would have entered the Presidio at all. and while to this day I cannot imagine him inside the FOY at St. Augustine or in a National Park in Charleston. in the 80s Lands End was wide open and I doubt he would have even thought about it at all.
Thanks for letting me know that. That’s a tough one for me. I know everyone thinks their solution is the right one. I had this one at 75% that it was the correct solution and the NPS won’t even let me probe it. That is not surprising though. There is a definite possibility that the casque is there and we will never know. Maybe I could hire a Seal Team to parachute in with their night vision and bring me back the casque.
So now I guess my only move is to concentrate on the 25% part that I was wrong and start working on a new solution.
Goonie68
The left arm of the Gal is a pretty spot on match to the the Headlands above the GG Bridge.
NYCNative
That is really cool, Goonie!
Goonie68
The Gal's right arm is a good match for Angel Island
Choice
So following this line of thought, if you connect the two spots pointed by the fingers the line goes right through Alcatraz; a no dig zone. I previously posted a dig site at the doorway of the collapsed building near the water tower (the hexagon blue thing).
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3836
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
So following this line of thought, if you connect the two spots pointed by the fingers the line goes right through Alcatraz; a no dig zone. I previously posted a dig site at the doorway of the collapsed building near the water tower (the hexagon blue thing).
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3836
I think it's more of a geographical hint, that these two area's are outside the city. I don't believe that the outer part of the sleeves are meant to be anymore than Land marks, but the inner part of the sleeve's (blocks) are meant to be city blocks, which I think play's a Big part in finding the casque location.
Choice
I still don't get what any of this got to do with Chinese immigration.
Angel island, Chinatown ...
Choice
Hey Matt (this should be an app!)
Has anyone tried to get an image match to the cliffs at the Cliff House? I just have Google and some old postcards to work with.
https://tinyurl.com/y4zy4554
Rviewer1
What’s up with the SF group. This place has gone silent. Can we get some updates on what people are working on. I and another member on this forum are going to be doing a little poking around in the GGP/Cliff House area towards the end of June. Hopefully we will have some good news.
I think Matt is still up at TLOH? Any updates. I think Goldengate is on strawberry hill somewhere by the Chinese pavilion?
Let’s get some updates from those who have not thrown in the towel. Let’s get some synergy going!
For those who have come up with a solution that makes digging not an alternative. I would urge them to try an alternate solution. Give it a go. Adapt! I thought some of my earlier solutions were 99.9 percent correct but found that the area had been dug up after 1982. So I moved on and was surprised that my new solution was even better than the prior one.
Goonie68
Rviewer1 wrote::
What’s up with the SF group. This place has gone silent. Can we get some updates on what people are working on. I and another member on this forum are going to be doing a little poking around in the GGP/Cliff House area towards the end of June. Hopefully we will have some good news.
I think Matt is still up at TLOH? Any updates. I think Goldengate is on strawberry hill somewhere by the Chinese pavilion?
Let’s get some updates from those who have not thrown in the towel. Let’s get some synergy going!
For those who have come up with a solution that makes digging not an alternative. I would urge them to try an alternate solution. Give it a go. Adapt! I thought some of my earlier solutions were 99.9 percent correct but found that the area had been dug up after 1982. So I moved on and was surprised that my new solution was even better than the prior one.
Update: Image wall behind the Gal, Chalk Board, Chalk Boards are made out of Slate (stone) Maritime Museum entrance and walls are made out of Slate (stone) "At stone wall's door"......
https://ibb.co/JHNVG8j
https://ibb.co/vsdF28H
Rviewer1
Goonie68 wrote::
Update: Image wall behind the Gal, Chalk Board, Chalk Boards are made out of Slate (stone) Maritime Museum entrance and walls are made out of Slate (stone) "At stone wall's door"......
https://ibb.co/JHNVG8j
https://ibb.co/vsdF28H
Good stuff Goonie! BTW I can see a fish up top in that mural that is a duplicate of the fish in the image. Also if that is your starting point do you have an end point in mind? Thanks for the update
XeroDM
Rviewer1 wrote::
What’s up with the SF group. This place has gone silent. Can we get some updates on what people are working on. I and another member on this forum are going to be doing a little poking around in the GGP/Cliff House area towards the end of June. Hopefully we will have some good news.
I think Matt is still up at TLOH? Any updates. I think Goldengate is on strawberry hill somewhere by the Chinese pavilion?
Let’s get some updates from those who have not thrown in the towel. Let’s get some synergy going!
For those who have come up with a solution that makes digging not an alternative. I would urge them to try an alternate solution. Give it a go. Adapt! I thought some of my earlier solutions were 99.9 percent correct but found that the area had been dug up after 1982. So I moved on and was surprised that my new solution was even better than the prior one.
I got some people to dig at Verdi in April after the Dr Gay fiasco. Dug directly in line with the pole on the statue. Came up zeros. Seemed like a good idea but nothing resulted. Was well dug and documented. Posted on the wiki and a link on this board with solution and photos of dig. I am happy to say it's not there.
There was another dig done at Verdi, behind the statue, also came up negative.
The diggers identified another possible site, but I haven't heard back from them as to whether or not they have gone back. Highly doubtful they did. May be worth considering in the future.
My main sticking point at this time with image 1 is the 4 symbols across the top of the dress- circle, squares and triangle. I feel they might do a final refinement, and because we don't understand them, we didn't get to the right location.
XdM
Goonie68
[quote="Durian"]
"And this book was written by a man wearing a classically eighteenth century curly wig. Hmm... Who do we know with curly hair?""
The Black curry hair can and the dark leaf (off the table) could be a hint to the word "ace" The black leaf, could suggest a spade or in this case the ace of spade. If you look up the history behind the ace of spade very interesting...it was called "Old Fizzle" The word Fizzle meaning "head of hair or curl" the Gal has black curly hair. Old Fizzle was a Duty stamp, a tax, this would give the suggestion of currency associated with the stamp or the Ace of spade. The Ace is the top card (1) in brand new deck of cards, so this would make it Higher then the others, the ace is also associated with the number 1, the square with dot , a pip also the number 1 relation, the ace also a nickname for the dollar bill, the dollar could of been the highest currency in the world in 1980's. Something to think about......
Goonie68
[quote="Durian"
Definitely something to think about Goonie, and it could well be... I'm just saying that the curly hair could also easily be a simple reference to Jonathon Swift, who wrote
Gulliver's Travels
. And the piece of land in the upper right corner does look a lot like someone lying down and tied down, i.e. Gulliver by the Liliputians...
Anyway—and image interpretations aside—I still find it incredible that nobody on this board working the SF puzzle has any thoughts on the fact that in
Gulliver's Travels
a 'giant step' on a peninsula on the western coast of the North American continent is defined as being ten yards long. Really? Nobody thinks this might be an important clue to solving the SF puzzle? Nobody thinks that a publisher such as Preiss might use this very specific and detailed piece of info found in a popular classic of modern literature as a clue to help people solve the puzzle? Nobody thinks this might be why he called attention to the word 'Giant' twice?
After decades of speculation by probably hundreds of people as to what exactly constitutes a 'giant step,' nobody here is excited that Preiss appears to have given us such a clear-cut hint that there is a numerical answer to this question: 10 yards?[/quote]
I do like the Gulliver's Travels tie in to the puzzle, there was a movie in 1977 Gulliver's Travels, and the book is something we as youths would of read so I can see how this could be a reference, tho I personally think the step is a physical object like the pole
maltedfalcon
Durian wrote::
After decades of speculation by probably hundreds of people as to what exactly constitutes a 'giant step,' nobody here is excited that Preiss appears to have given us such a clear-cut hint that there is a numerical answer to this question: 10 yards?
Especially when you consider there have been plenty if theories where the Giant step was resolved to a specific distance.
and considering this was theoretically an easy one I suspect adding layers of literature clues is problematic
that the japanese clues for SF did not reference a particular book for research
it makes more sense that the Giant step is simply a large horizontal or vertical human step.
Goonie68
The topic of Giant Step has inspired this experiment.
3 people (volunteers)
2 people of height of 5'6
1 person of height of 6'1
Giant step : front toe on base line, to front toe on the measured line
This experiment shows that a person 5'6 and a person 6'1 a difference of about 9 inches in separation between the two giant steps, Is it possible that a 5 inch box could be missed with the interpretation of one's Giant step?
https://ibb.co/9yMQKcy
Choice
Giant step could also be equal length (height) as giant pole; using one Giant as a unit of measurement. This also may work with Durian's spot.
maltedfalcon
Goonie68 wrote::
Is it possible that a 5 inch box could be missed with the interpretation of one's Giant step?
https://ibb.co/9yMQKcy
not if you dig a big enough hole...
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
not if you dig a big enough hole...
That would be the Willhouse effect.
maltedfalcon
Durian,
if the casque was in maritime park it is probably gone
if not the limited amount of area where it could be could be easily checked
when you say "extremely good match " I tend to tune out since chicago and cleveland had exact matches, there are extremely good matches all over SF
Yes there is a huge difference between the image artwork sources and your literature reference
that is nobody actually needed to find the image artwork sources to figure out the puzzles they were noticed as an after the fact easter egg
your idea requires the discovery of that clue before finding the casque location.
the 11 letters = moons has always seemed to me to be a stretch and again the Gh is not the same font as the sign (see the part about exact match above)
and lastly a vertical step as a giant step distance really would not matter. just bigger than a normal step - something you would need to jump down or climb up
but since you have a distance length and direction dig it up and prove me wrong...
Not that I wasn't there at one time, now I just don't think it is anywhere around there. still best of luck!
Choice
Setting Gulliver quote aside, if your location is correct then looking at the "Giant pole, Giant step" could mean that the pole and step are the same size. Don't be concerned if the tower is taller than the space between the stone and the tower. It won't be under the stone but a few feet away.
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
but since you have a distance length and direction dig it up and prove me wrong...
That's the whole point. He can't get permission to dig.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Setting Gulliver quote aside, if your location is correct then looking at the "Giant pole, Giant step" could mean that the pole and step are the same size. Don't be concerned if the tower is taller than the space between the stone and the tower. It won't be under the stone but a few feet away.
Question: Do you think BP would have people digging holes next to a monument that is important to the City of San Francisco a few feet away? If 5 people came to this very spot(not at the same time) and dug they would tear the S%%H out of the place destroying the area around the monument, Yes? No?
maltedfalcon
Choice wrote::
That's the whole point. He can't get permission to dig.
great use a boroscope and prove me wrong.
Goonie68
maltedfalcon wrote::
great use a boroscope and prove me wrong.
Do you think it's legal to probe?
Choice
I don't think it's legal to probe either. But the whole area is too exposed for my taste.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
I don't think it's legal to probe either. But the whole area is too exposed for my taste.
If it was legal I have the equipment to boroscope it, if not don't want jail time, got a job and bills LOL
Choice
I have a couple of issues with Durian's solve.
The stem of the rose (Angel Island) is coming from the south side of the island. I think the port was to the north-east of the island.
Alternatively the stem could be GG Bridge. Then the perspective from Marina wouldn't be right. You have to be standing way in the west for GG bridge to seem coming out of Angel Island.
Somewhere around Cliff House or China Beach.
Both these places also end up with spirals; Point Lobos turn up the trail to Sutro heights or the winding trail to China Beach.
Also the clock/compass shadow points to W not E.
Choice
I'm not saying that everything must be to scale or at right place. Afterall I have the Belv./Tiburon attached to cliff house.
I'm thinking the GG Bridge seemingly coming out of Angel Island may be a hint to find a place that this may be visually plausible.
Choice
How about Jack and the beanstalk? Beanstalk and leaves all over the table. Reference to giant and smell.
Stonewall Jackson – Jackson Square; the original location of Ghirardelli
Choice
maltedfalcon wrote::
the 11 letters = moons has always seemed to me to be a stretch and again the Gh is not the same font as the sign (see the part about exact match above)
A lifetime ago I explained the 11 moons as the element NA or Sodium. The electrons of an atom are often compared to moons of a planet.
It got me to Port of San Francisco Ferry Building with a bit of word play.
NA is for Natrium. N-atrium or an atrium. Ferry building is practically a 2 football field long atrium.
Is the Ghirardelli Square considered an atrium? It kinda fits the definition.
MERLIN
what if what we think are moons are actually pearls -
https://giphy.com/gifs/funny-seinfeld-E ... fullscreen
Goonie68
There is two things going on with the upper portion of the image, objects of the same thing, and many of them. The most common association to the objects would be the appearance of moons, the image has more than one, so is this a hint to count them? If that is the case then we have 11, two separate clues. Now to associate these clues with a location, Moon = planets = out space = astronomy = a place to observe or to do with observation, 11 is there a place that is associated with the # 11, a place = address = street? The clues in the image are supporting a physical place that we need to confirm we are moving in the correct direction.
This is how i see how this works, am I wrong?
Choice
Also 11 moons for 11th month, November meaning 9th.
XI, Chinese name from Xi Zhong, credited with inventing the carriage, who lived during the Xia dynasty (2205–1766 bc).
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Also 11 moons for 11th month, November meaning 9th.
XI, Chinese name from Xi Zhong, credited with inventing the carriage, who lived during the Xia dynasty (2205–1766 bc).
Is there a place in the City that can connect to Xi Zhong?
Choice
I
don't know. But there's a clear connection to 9th ave and GGP
Choice
I don't know. But there's a clear connection to 9th ave and GGP
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
I
don't know. But there's a clear connection to 9th ave and GGP
Ok cool, at what point in the puzzle do you think this connects? beginning middle or end?
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
I don't know. But there's a clear connection to 9th ave and GGP
Ok cool, at what point in the puzzle do you think this connects? beginning middle or end?
Choice
Looking at the map of the GGP it seems to be the entrance to the park.
Choice
Looking at the map
of
the GGP it seems to be the entrance to the park.
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Looking at the map of the GGP it seems to be the entrance to the park.
Is there a stone wall's door to connect to this entrance or near by?
Goonie68
Choice wrote::
Looking at the map
of
the GGP it seems to be the entrance to the park.
Is there a stone wall's door to connect to this entrance or near by?
Goonie68
Looks like the entrance to the park at 9th is the location
of
the Hall
of
Flowers and the Big Rec ball field.
Goonie68
Looks like the entrance to the park at 9th is the location of the Hall of Flowers and the Big Rec ball field.
Choice
You're making a lot
of
assumptions here. Verse 7/correct order may not be the right one. It may be the reverse order or even other suggested verses. We can't solve 40 years
of
conflict today.
Choice
You're making a lot of assumptions here. Verse 7/correct order may not be the right one. It may be the reverse order or even other suggested verses. We can't solve 40 years of conflict today.
Goonie68
My thinking is, why use so much of the image to tell us Look at the Ghirardelli sign, if the Gh are what this is supposed to be , then why waste ,moons and numbers to tell us this is the sign when solely the Gh can do that with one hint? As i have explained before, I think this is a hint to Galileo and Polk street, where Polk street runs right into the Maritime Museum entrance.
"At stone wall's door" With a Map of 1981 that has the word "At" where the stone wall is located, this to me is the most connected clue besides the Lat and long. A map of 1981 that connects the stone wall to a physical place! The word At on the map is also with a capital A, as the beginning of the verse, this to me is very solid backed by published information.
https://ibb.co/5GDLkNZ
Goonie68
My thinking is, why use so much
of
the image to tell us Look at the Ghirardelli sign, if the Gh are what this is supposed to be , then why waste ,moons and numbers to tell us this is the sign when solely the Gh can do that with one hint? As
i
have explained before,
I
think this is a hint to Galileo and Polk street, where Polk street runs right into the Maritime Museum entrance.
"At stone wall's door" With a Map
of
1981 that has the word "At" where the stone wall is located, this to me is the most connected clue besides the Lat and long. A map
of
1981 that connects the stone wall to a physical place! The word At on the map is also with a capital A, as the beginning
of
the verse, this to me is very solid backed by published information.
https://ibb.co/5GDLkNZ
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
I don't think of the additional hints at Ghirardelli as wasted. I view them as confirmation you are in the right spot.
The map is interesting, but aside from nods to some of the murals in the museum and on it's northward facing outer wall, I've found nothing concrete for the Maritime Museum. Certainly not it's front. Why do you feel the museum fits the 'air smells sweet' part of the verse?
"The air smells sweet" is a nod to move towards Ghirardelli from the entrance of the Museum (east) to me the chocolate colored rocks and the Gh give you a confirmation of Ghirardelli, but that's just my opinion. HAHA you said not concrete, the entrance IS STONE, seems to me very concrete LOL IMO
Goonie68
Durian wrote::
I
don't think
of
the additional hints at Ghirardelli as wasted.
I
view them as confirmation you are in the right spot.
The map is interesting, but aside from nods to some
of
the murals in the museum and on it's northward facing outer wall,
I
've found nothing concrete for the Maritime Museum. Certainly not it's front. Why do you feel the museum fits the 'air smells sweet' part
of
the verse?
"The air smells sweet" is a nod to move towards Ghirardelli from the entrance
of
the Museum (east) to me the chocolate colored rocks and the Gh give you a confirmation
of
Ghirardelli, but that's just my opinion. HAHA you said not concrete, the entrance IS STONE, seems to me very concrete LOL IMO
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
I
think this is a hint to Galileo and Polk street...
Maybe this is why the pearl is not in the middle but shifted to the left.
My crappy graphics software doesn't allow me to type in a curve. So if someone want to try making an arch with Galileo High with "o" being the pearl would be cool.
Choice
Goonie68 wrote::
I think this is a hint to Galileo and Polk street...
Maybe this is why the pearl is not in the middle but shifted to the left.
My crappy graphics software doesn't allow me to type in a curve. So if someone want to try making an arch with Galileo High with "o" being the pearl would be cool.
Choice
BTW the same kind of optical illusion is present in image 4 where the jewel is offset to the left of the image.
Choice
BTW the same kind
of
optical illusion is present in image 4 where the jewel is offset to the left
of
the image.
Choice
If you look at the image again the "h" is for Hig"h", the last "h".
This might help.
Choice
From this location you are practically overlooking Ghirardelli.
To the right you have 6 and 8 rows
of
blocks.
If you consider "stone wall" to be a reference to the dragon's body then it's "door" would be it's mouth.
Dragon's head in the image looks like a lion's head.
So at the mouth
of
the lion, sweet smell
of
success!
Nice little green patch there.
I
'm making a huge assumption that the mural was there then.
https://tinyurl.com/y2jye8bz
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3781
Choice
From this location you are practically overlooking Ghirardelli.
To the right you have 6 and 8 rows of blocks.
If you consider "stone wall" to be a reference to the dragon's body then it's "door" would be it's mouth.
Dragon's head in the image looks like a lion's head.
So at the mouth of the lion, sweet smell of success!
Nice little green patch there.
I'm making a huge assumption that the mural was there then.
https://tinyurl.com/y2jye8bz
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=770&start=3781
maltedfalcon
[quote="Choice"
I'm making a huge assumption that the mural was there then.
https://tinyurl.com/y2jye8bz
[/quote]
definitely there in 2011 but I don't see it in 2007 but that picture is really too blurry to be sure
so I can't say it wasn't there.
under " the Mighty Lions" might be some more text like a date or a signature. too far away to see.
maltedfalcon
[quote="Choice"
I
'm making a huge assumption that the mural was there then.
https://tinyurl.com/y2jye8bz
[/quote]
definitely there in 2011 but
I
don't see it in 2007 but that picture is really too blurry to be sure
so
I
can't say it wasn't there.
under " the Mighty Lions" might be some more text like a date or a signature. too far away to see.
Choice
I think that's just the rectangular frame line. I don't see any text.
Where do you see 2007 image?
There's 2008:
https://tinyurl.com/y2fozyb2
Choice
I
think that's just the rectangular frame line.
I
don't see any text.
Where do you see 2007 image?
There's 2008:
https://tinyurl.com/y2fozyb2
Choice
Here's some funny shit. Is that mural image from 1995?
hxxp://www.cnn.com/US/OJ/suspect/high.s ... chool.html
Choice
If this is a telephone map icon legend then Chinese phone exchange and Portsmouth Square area may be area of interest.
Choice
Stone marker waiting for Durian's magic!
https://utahvalley360.com/wp-content/up ... Square.jpg
GoldenMartyr
Choice wrote::
If this is a telephone map icon legend then Chinese phone exchange and Portsmouth Square area may be area of interest.
***+quote
Choice- do you have a photo of an icon that you are referring to? I believe I understand what you mean but haven't seen one that matches.
GoldenMartyr
Ok, I thought I was missing something. Thanks.
Choice
The circles on the other side could be the rotary dial holes. Who knows!
burnstyle
You guy are getting uncomfortably close to where I would like to dig in sf lol
Choice
Wasn't that area turned upside down with renovations over the years?
burnstyle
All but one spot.
The area near the pole. It's never been touched.
I've got all the work orders, plans, and diagrams going back to the renovations in the 70s.
Choice
Post a good image of the area. Mine suck!
burnstyle
https://i.imgur.com/jpnKRTa.png
Choice
Have you tried to match the shape of that stone marker with the shape of the woman?
From this spot the flagpole is right behind you.
https://tinyurl.com/y6rqc98h
Choice
Sun Hung Heung Restaurant sign across from the phone exchange:
https://tinyurl.com/y463hhqw
Weak!
BINGO
This is all wonderful. Where did Gulliver bury the casque? What clues does Gulliver’s book give to help find the casque?
Constantly pounding home a connection that doesn’t advance the puzzle does what for everyone?
You win. It’s all about Gulliver’s travels. What is the logical next step? What location or area are we supposed to look next and why?
If there are no good answers to these very basic questions, how strong is this connection really?
Choice
It's all about the 10 yard step dude, get with it!
BINGO
Choice wrote::
It's all about the 10 yard step dude, get with it!
Oh I get it. A 10 yard step from where to where? Does Gulliver help with that question, dude?
Choice
I'm the Jack the Beanstalk guy myself!
Rviewer1
In July hopefully the first or second weekend I’m going to be doing some probing along with a boroscope. I was just at the area which is close to the cliff house up at Sutro Heights. Yeah I know it is out of bounds but if the NPS does catch me at least I will have a good story to tell. Just like others on this forum who are all certain in their solutions I’m certain on mine whichI posted a number if pages back on this thread.
I do know that this area would have been open territory for BP back in 1981 and there would not have been any reason to stop him from burying it there. My solution takes me two a 2 foot area. But there has been a small amount of some slippage in since 1981. So I might had to do a couple more probes. That could mean that the casque may be buried closer to the surface. If so then we may be digging even though the first trip was meant to probe and if we got what we were looking for
we would come back a second time and dig. I hope those Park Rangers have uniforms because I will have people on the perimeter as look outs.
This is something that I and another member of this forum have to do since BP could have very well buried it there.
I remember when I was going to college in the Bay Area and was pledging a fraternity. During Hell Week on the very last day they sent us into the city on a scavenger hunt. The president of the frat wanted to doorman’s hat from the Fairmont Hotel and asked me to get it personally. At the college I went to I was on the track team. Back in those day’s we ran yards not meters. I ran the 440 and the 880 and was pretty good at it so I thought I would sneak up on the doorman and grab the hat and run leaving the old guy behind. As it turned out the doorman was neither old nor slow. I had my car parked about a mile away. For the first couple hundred yards the guy was right on my tail. So I put the after burners on and the guy started to drop back a little. I had my Butch Cassidy moment thinking “who is this guy”. I thought I finally lost him and my fellow pledge buddy had my car running and I jumped in and we took off. Unfortunately for me the guy got my license plate number. I later found out that the guy ran the mile for another college in the Bay Area.
Later that night my parents got a call saying my car was just used in a theft in San Francisco. To cut to the chase was that I had to return the hat the following Monday morning or they would press charges. The frat president was none to pleased.
So I’m looking forward to the challenge.
Choice
Good thing you pre-announced your intentions so the rangers WILL be looking for you! Well at least you get free soup for you!
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
Good thing you pre-announced your intentions so the rangers WILL be looking for you! Well at least you get free soup for you!
I going to call the the operation Ocean’s Beach 11.
I like soup.
Choice
You got 10 people tagging along?
OMG we got Alexa [bot] spying on us.
erexere
Rviewer1, great story. Good luck in your probery. Keep the car running.
Choice
Yeah, just remember yall,
RUN IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS!
Choice
Is there a strong connection between Sutro heights and Chinese immigration?
BTW since China is practically on the opposite side of planet, the coordinate numbers of San Francisco and Eastern China are the same 37/122,
MERLIN
really think about this one...
hxxp://www.hamiltonstoneworks.com/rhodo ... arden.html
MERLIN
erexere wrote::
Rosebud
you need to enable javascript.
Choice
So which stone are we digging at?!
https://tinyurl.com/y3n8clpt
erexere
MERLIN wrote::
you need to enable javascript.
You're right. Now I see. Cool looking structure. I thought you were going for some kind of Citizen Kane link.
I've been working on a link to the 1906 earthquake. I've misplaced my book, though.
Rviewer1
Do any of the San Francisco hunters have any summer updates to post on where every one is? I and another member here on the forum did some probing in SHP last month. We now have two spots of interest. As you can imagine we were in stealth mode. I personally feel it was the Park Ranger uniforms that did the trick. Luckily no one spotted my orange running shoes. We did learn that July is not the best month to go probing as the ground was pretty hard. We intend to go back once the rainy season begins. Hope everyone is enjoying their summer.
maltedfalcon
Best month is actually June and July,
but you have to wait for the fog to come in and hide you...
Choice
Spooooky...
Large images pls post link.
https://richmondsfblog.com/wp-content/u ... c6d0_k.jpg
Choice
Rviewer1 wrote::
Do any of the San Francisco hunters have any summer updates to post on where every one is?
I might've missed your post but did you ever post the Chinese emigration connection to your solve?
Rviewer1
Choice wrote::
I might've missed your post but did you ever post the Chinese emigration connection to your solve?
Not in my original solve. I have noticed since then that there may be a Chinese theme to a point. The Chinese Goddess of the Moon Chang-o could have something to do with the moons in Image 1. If that is the case then there are a few moons that are hovering directly above some of my locations along my path including my final location.
Rviewer1
maltedfalcon wrote::
Best month is actually June and July,
but you have to wait for the fog to come in and hide you...
That’s pretty funny Mr Falcon. I would imagine that is pretty tough to play golf at Lincoln Park like that.
I’m hoping for both a little rain and fog. I will have to get a couple Park Ranger rain coats and glow in the fog running shoes.
EvelynMDog
Looks like you're using a 3/4" diameter probe from Amazon.
I couldn't get much ground penetration with it either.
Walked on down to a 1/4" diameter cold-rolled steel rod from local hardware store - more penetration but rod bent.
I went on Amazon again and got a 1/8" diameter x 48" length precipitation-hardened, 17-4 stainless steel rod.
UNSPSC Code 30102405
It works like a charm without bending.
You will need gloves though, no T-handle.
Rviewer1
EvelynMDog wrote::
Looks like you're using a 3/4" diameter probe from Amazon.
I couldn't get much ground penetration with it either.
Walked on down to a 1/4" diameter cold-rolled steel rod from local hardware store - more penetration but rod bent.
I went on Amazon again and got a 1/8" diameter x 48" length precipitation-hardened, 17-4 stainless steel rod.
UNSPSC Code 30102405
It works like a charm without bending.
You will need gloves though, no T-handle.
Thanks for the tip. We are using a boroscope so we need it that wide. We may bring both next time though.
Has anyone ever used a drill?. I know that Home Depot has cordless power drills with drill bits that go to 21 inches and on their website they go up to 36 inches.
gManTexas
Rviewer1 wrote::
Thanks for the tip. We are using a boroscope so we need it that wide. We may bring both next time though.
Has anyone ever used a drill?. I know that Home Depot has cordless power drills with drill bits that go to 21 inches and on their website they go up to 36 inches.
I have a probe, but I have found that using threaded rod in a cordless drill works great. 5/16" threaded rod from Home Depot comes in 3 or 6 foot lengths, and it's cheap. Take one end and files three flats to match the chuck of the drill. You can basically drill it into the ground and back out in 10 - 20 seconds. The chucked end will eventually break from the heat and torque, so bring the file with you. And spare batteries for the drill.
You can probe a huge area in no time.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/5-16-in-18- ... /204274012
Rviewer1
Thanks GMan,
Do you have a particular cordless drill brand name I can get? Is there one that has a 3/4 of an inch drill bit. Either way I think this sounds like a good way go.
gManTexas
Rviewer1 wrote::
Thanks GMan,
Do you have a particular cordless drill brand name I can get? Is there one that has a 3/4 of an inch drill bit. Either way I think this sounds like a good way go.
I have a Milwaukee cordless drill and I love it. The batteries last forever. You really can get whatever 1/2" cordless drill you want and the chuck should open up enough to accept the threaded rod.
If you can get the hammer option on the drill, it's not a bad idea because sometimes you'll have to work through some tough soil or obstructions. Also, get at least one spare battery. All of this stuff, including the file can easily fit in a backpack. You have to carry the threaded rod though. My advice is to get the 6 foot length and cut it down to 4 - 4.5 feet with a hacksaw.
If you need the hole to be 3/4" for the boroscope, drill first then chase the hole with the probe. Or you can get a smaller scope. I've seen small diameter ones that connect to your phone. I think they are pretty cheap on Amazon.
Goonie68
gManTexas wrote::
I have a Milwaukee cordless drill and I love it. The batteries last forever. You really can get whatever 1/2" cordless drill you want and the chuck should open up enough to accept the threaded rod.
If you can get the hammer option on the drill, it's not a bad idea because sometimes you'll have to work through some tough soil or obstructions. Also, get at least one spare battery. All of this stuff, including the file can easily fit in a backpack. You have to carry the threaded rod though. My advice is to get the 6 foot length and cut it down to 4 - 4.5 feet with a hacksaw.
If you need the hole to be 3/4" for the boroscope, drill first then chase the hole with the probe.
In addition you can paint the threaded rod white and the tip red, (Blind walking stick) and no one will bother you ( Gman's idea) or you can just carry around a 4' bright RED probe around the city and no one will notice you!!!
gManTexas
Goonie68 wrote::
In addition you can paint the threaded rod white and the tip red, (Blind walking stick) and no one will bother you ( Gman's idea) or you can just carry around a 4' bright RED probe around the city and no one will notice you!!!
Don't forget the Ray Charles glasses.
Choice
That's a good way of drilling right through the cask. It could be moved up closer to the surface. Major earthquake in 89 could've done it.
1/8" and 1/4" probes also could poke right through the box and don't feel it. Cracks may have weakened the box.
gManTexas
Only if you are an idiot. It's called using finesse.
Choice
Yup, new season of Squidbillies has started!
Oooops, I wasn't supposed to feed the troll!
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Only if you are an idiot. It's called using finesse.
The truth is, you have no idea what's required. The Chicago group didn't probe, and there is plenty of evidence to conclude that while Andy did use a probe to find the Cleveland casque, it was already compromised. To what degree we will never know, but
running
a piece of rebar through it could not have helped its condition. These are fragile things, and the utmost care should be taken in their recovery IMO.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Only if you are an idiot. It's called using finesse.
The truth is, you have no idea what's required. The Chicago group didn't probe, and there is plenty of evidence to conclude that while Andy did use a probe to find the Cleveland casque, it was already compromised. To what degree we will never know, but running a piece of rebar through it could not have helped its condition. These are fragile things, and the utmost care should be taken in their recovery IMO.
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
The truth is, you have no idea what's required. The Chicago group didn't probe, and there is plenty of evidence to conclude that while Andy did use a probe to find the Cleveland casque, it was already compromised. To what degree we will never know, but running a piece of rebar through it could not have helped its condition. These are fragile things, and the utmost care should be taken in their recovery IMO.
And your point is what?
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
The truth is, you have no idea what's required. The Chicago group didn't probe, and there is plenty of evidence to conclude that while Andy did use a probe to find the Cleveland casque, it was already compromised. To what degree we will never know, but
running
a piece of rebar through it could not have helped its condition. These are fragile things, and the utmost care should be taken in their recovery IMO.
And your point is what?
Choice
The obvious point is, unless you want to dig out a pile of plastic and ceramic shards you must not drill or poke and probe if you don't even know what depth the cask even is.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
And your point is what?
As someone who works with power tools all the time, I'm merely suggesting that using one to find a casque isn't the best idea. Not if you really care about preserving whatever condition it may be in after almost 40 years in the ground.
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
As someone who works with power tools all the time, I'm merely suggesting that using one to find a casque isn't the best idea. Not if you really care about preserving whatever condition it may be in after almost 40 years in the ground.
I disagree. With a good cordless drill you can adjust the speed and torque. Also, you can run the threaded rod into the ground as slow as you'd like. I say it's a much better method than jumping up and down on a probe.
Having said that, there is some risk of damage whether you probe or dig.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I say it's a much better method than jumping up and down on a probe.
As methods go, this is about as dumb as it gets. Of course, most of my professional experience probing is for things that can, if not handled carefully, kill you. Or at the very least, seriously ruin your day. A probe has one function and that is to tell you that something is there, and approximately how deep down it is. If you want any more information than that, you usually have to dig...carefully.
Not for nothing, but I believe that BP probably used one before he buried these things. Probing the area first to make sure he would have no trouble digging makes a lot of sense, attracts almost no attention, and guarantees that he could get in and out quickly when it came time to actually dig the hole and bury the casque.
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
As methods go, this is about as dumb as it gets. Of course, most of my professional experience probing is for things that can, if not handled carefully, kill you. Or at the very least, seriously ruin your day. A probe has one function and that is to tell you that something is there, and approximately how deep down it is. If you want any more information than that, you usually have to dig...carefully.
I'm not sure why you are stating the obvious here.
Anyway, you can do this experiment for yourself. It will cost you about $5 and a few minutes of your time.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
I'm not sure why you are stating the obvious here.
And I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that you should know the answer to. But just to be clear (and keep things civil) I think the idea of using a drill and whatever is attached to it is about as dumb an idea as there is. We already have enough problems with the various Park's Departments. And that's without some well intentioned searcher hitting an underground utility that they have no idea exists until they rupture it because they lack the necessary finesse. You can get all the information you need with a probe, and some patience. A drill will speed up the process, no doubt. But at what cost?
gManTexas
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
And I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that you should know the answer to. But just to be clear (and keep things civil) I think the idea of using a drill and whatever is attached to it is about as dumb an idea as there is. We already have enough problems with the various Park's Departments. And that's without some well intentioned searcher hitting an underground utility that they have no idea exists until they rupture it because they lack the necessary finesse. You can get all the information you need with a probe, and some patience. A drill will speed up the process, no doubt. But at what cost?
Let's agree to disagree. You dig how you see fit.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
You dig how you see fit.
If it's all the same to you GMan, I'll continue to search for these things in a responsible manner, and advise any one else in on the hunt to do the same. The "how you see fit" crowd has caused nothing but problems.
Peace.
phrabbott
Erpobdelliforme wrote::
And I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that you should know the answer to. But just to be clear (and keep things civil) I think the idea of using a drill and whatever is attached to it is about as dumb an idea as there is. We already have enough problems with the various Park's Departments. And that's without some well intentioned searcher hitting an underground utility that they have no idea exists until they rupture it because they lack the necessary finesse. You can get all the information you need with a probe, and some patience. A drill will speed up the process, no doubt. But at what cost?
You really have to work to put a 3/4” bit through anything including a 6” plexiglass box. Oh right, not supposed to stating the obvious. As someone who works with power tools I’m surprised that you think even a complete Neanderthal could drill through a utility without knowing well beforehand.
Choice
How can one know the difference between drilling through a rock and a clay sewer pipe or PVC pipe or water pipe 3 feet deep? Call 811 to mark the lines for you!
phrabbott
Choice wrote::
How can one know the difference between drilling through a rock and a clay sewer pipe or PVC pipe or water pipe 3 feet deep? Call 811 to mark the lines for you!
I would stop if I hit any of the above?
If you can drill through any of those like butter, please send me the bit you’re using!
Choice
How can you tell if you are hitting anything? If the dirt is so hard that you have to resort to a drill then it might be difficult to know if you are drilling through a clay pipe or hard clay dirt. PVC even softer.
phrabbott
Even hard dirt will crumble easily with a drill. Dirt is only hard to a probe or something you’re trying to inject via blunt force. If you hit something you will know and you’d have to be extremely reckless to break through said thing. Honestly, because the probe requires force, I see that as more dangerous. Either way, if people really think they can break through 3/8 plexi with a spike, then I’d pay to see it. Old pipes are more likely to be damaged.
EvelynMDog
Didn't mean to stir up all that shit-storm.
Good to know there are people out there "walking the walk" though.
Erpobdelliforme
Unknown:
Good to know there are people out there "walking the walk" though.
Yes it is. But I don't think it's too much to ask that those that do, do it responsibly. BP was able to put these things in the ground with a minimum of fuss and disruption, and we should aspire to find and remove them in the same way. After all, "It is not the intention of the Fair People to destroy the beauty of nature or Man through their challenge.".
burnstyle
Choice wrote::
How can you tell if you are hitting anything? If the dirt is so hard that you have to resort to a drill then it might be difficult to know if you are drilling through a clay pipe or hard clay dirt. PVC even softer.
I take a 1.5 foot paddle bit on an extension. Icut off the screw portion of the paddle bit and filed down the tips so its just a blunt paddle. That allows the bit to stop on anything hard, and you can rock the bit back and forth to see if what you have hit is smooth and flat.
I can take a picture later if I didnt describe it well enough.
Kalessin
The threaded rod and power drill idea sounds like just what I was looking for to aerate some hardpack soil in my lawn without rototilling the grass away. The discriminating tastes of our chipmunk colony require that they burrow only where the ground is nice and soft.
Personally, I'd prefer not to probe because of potential damage. Shatter part of the plexiglas, and any ground pressure around it could collapse the thing. Is the plexi brittle after 35+ years in the ground? I'm not sure.
Also, I'm not sure that I'd be able to discriminate between a rock or a root, a buried something else, ora casque.
Choice
Someone should MacGyver a portable water probe/drill. All you need is a portable drill, water pump, jet nuzzle and a water backpack.